The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Behind the scenes at the combine with ESPN's Dan Graziano; What do the Ravens need to do to get over the hump?

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

The combine may be a draft event, but behind the scenes it's as much about the players already in the league as it is anything else. So what discussions are going on in back rooms in Indianapolis about Matthew Stafford, Kirk Cousins, Sam Darnold, Tee Higgins, Trey Smith, and the other big names who could be on the move in the next month or so? Dan Graziano of ESPN joins Robert Mays to dig into all that on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Then, The Athletic's Ravens beat writer Jeff Zrebiec joins Robert to discuss what the Ravens need to do to get over the hump in 2025.Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Dan Graziano and Jeff ZrebiecExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Wrapping up the week here in Indianapolis at the Combine. Now that we're toward the end of things here, and we've had a few days to kind of scoop up all the rumors. You hear the scuttlebutt, you hear the murmurs in these backrooms, Indianapolis. That's what other people are doing. There's no like palace intrigue about my life. I'm not more important.

I'm not that important. I do love spending a little bit of time at the end of this week, though, trying to hit on what the discussions have looked like. Indianapolis, talking to someone who is having a lot of them. To do that today, we welcomed Dan Graziano from ESPN. Love always chatting with Dan, super plugged in, does the work, always having these sorts of conversations. We hit a lot of stuff. The Abdul Carter news from last night, what's going to happen with Matthew Stafford? Depending on what happens with Matthew Stafford, what do the Giants do a quarterback? Why would the Giants want Matthew Stafford? Where do the Rams go?

If they trade Matthew Stafford, what are the Raiders going to do? What does the Sam Darnold market look like. What does that mean for what the Titans might do at number one? What does that mean for what the Browns might do at number two? Are the Browns going to trade Miles Garrett? I don't know. What's T. Higgins market going to look like? What does Chris Godwin do if he leaves the Buccaneers? Where is Trey Smith going to go? This is all stuff that we talked about. Really, really enjoyed our conversation with Dan. On the back end of this show, we're going to kick off something that we're going to roll out here over the next week or so. We did the most interesting teams of the offseason last week, But there were so many of these teams that are right there.

They're right there on the edge that I wanted to pick the brains of those writers who cover those teams while we were here in Indianapolis. So we're going to start that off today with a conversation that I had with our Ravens writer, Jeff Serebeck, about what the Ravens can do to finally get over the hump. We're going to do four of those segments over the next week or so here with four of these teams that are in this position. Ravens, Bills, Packers, Lions. Two teams in the NFC, two teams in the AFC. Really enjoyed all of those conversations we had with those writers. So excited for you guys to hear that discussion with Jeff. Let's get to Dan and Jeff right now.

Joining us here from Radio Row in Indianapolis. It's my friend from ESPN, Dan Graziano. Dan, how are you doing? Doing great. Robert, how are you? I'm doing very well. Good week. It's been a fun week. Yeah, it's been a long week.

Sure, always is. It's starting to feel longer as I'm getting older. I'll be honest with you. Well, I'll tell you what, that doesn't get any better. I can tell you from experience. That does not get any better. It's my 14th one, I think. That's about where I'm at, too.

Yeah. First one I was Cam Newton, 2011, like right before the lockout. So those were interesting times. My first one was 2009 while I was in college. Oh, wow. Yes. I came here, again, they all credential to anybody. I was writing a story about Jeremy McQuinn for the...

Oh, yeah. At the Columbia, Missouri, yeah. When I was at Missouri, yeah. That was the golden age of Missouri football. Every year we had, like, one or two guys in the first. first round. Yeah. And I remember coming here and I was 21 years old.

Wow. And I remember they used to have the media availability in the club level at the stadium. I remember that. And so I remember being there. And the two things I really remember from that year, one was Mark Sanchez's media availability. I found him very charming. He was.

I was surprised he went in the top five. Or he ended up on television. Yes. And the other thing I remember is being so, so stoked to see John Clayton. Oh, yeah. Because I was, like, I was a college kid. Yeah. And it's just, like, one of those moments where as a kid of the 90s watching SportsCenter,

I was just like, holy shit, that's John Clayton. Yeah, and it still never even feel right without him. It's, he was a guy, like, when I got the job at ESPN, like, he called me that afternoon, like to just say, hey, I'm John, I'm here for you. Like, he made that call to everybody we have, right? And he backed it up. Like, he used to scold me at the combine for not calling him. enough. Like to this sort of brainstorm. He was beautiful, man. He was, he was an all-timer.

But I was the same way, right? Because I'm like, I get to ESPN. I'm like, holy crap, I'm working with John Clayton and Chris Mortensen and Trey Wingo and Susie Colbert. Like, I'm on TV with these people. It's ridiculous. Yeah. As a college kid, there was just, you get starstruck. Yeah, you have to. I mean, because it's one of those moments where when you've never really done that before, you've never covered professional sports in any capacity, you know, I cover them as a football team. and you feel like that's the benefit of going to Missou. You feel like you're really working. Sure. But at the same time, you're not exposed to these people

you've watched on TV for your entire life. Now it becomes normal. But every once in a while, they're still, I've told the story a bunch over the last couple weeks. I was at an elevator to the Super Bowl with Mad Dog Russo. And that was just one of those moments where I was like, this is the weirdest job in the world. Like I just, I will never get over any of this.

Yeah, it's true. It's so funny. Every now and then I'll just send my kids like a picture or I'll say like, you know, hey, sorry. I was talking to Barry Sanders. so I couldn't pick up the phone when you called, and they just laugh. Yeah, it's crazy. Barry Sand.

Yeah, I did Major League Baseball for 14 years before I covered football. So, yeah, I say 14 combines. I probably went to the same number of baseball winter meetings, which is kind of the rough equivalent of this. Yeah. The way that I always described this is like this is the football convention. Like every sport has their thing. I was actually describing this to my wife last week.

We were talking about which sport and where it is. And like NBA All-Star is like the gathering place for the NBA. Because think about the finals. It's in different cities. You go back and forth. So it's not this thing that's stationary. It's not like the Super Bowl. Yeah.

Winter meetings for baseball, NBA All-Star and the Combine. And so it just changes for every single sport. Yeah. But it's all generally a lot of, you know, spin from one conversation to another and hope you come out with more phone numbers and more information than you went in with. And that's what we're doing today. Exactly. We're going to talk about kind of what we, mostly you, have scooped up over the course of the week as you've had some of these conversations.

Not scooping stuff up here. You're not paying attention. We're going to talk mostly about veteran stuff, NFL stuff, but not draft related things because it's so early in the process that we don't really know much. But there was kind of a big news moment last night, as I think most of us were probably winding down our evenings. Abdul Carter, pass rusher from Penn State, generally considered to be the best player in this draft with Travis Hunter, expected to go in the top two, three, depending on how everything shakes out, reported that he has a broken foot that he is now dealing with. What have you heard about this and how do you expect this to play out over the next few weeks and potentially affect where he ultimately gets drafted?

Stress reaction in his foot, so will it heal? Will he need surgery? I think they're working through all that. It seems like this morning the word is coming out that they might not need surgery, at least not right now. But, you know, it becomes a concern, right? Are we drafting a player who's hurt who's going to continue to be hurt? I mean, that all goes into it.

In this particular draft, I think, you know, it's funny, this news is breaking last night while we're sort of out and about in town, right? So, like, there were scouts and personnel people that I was with that didn't know until I told them, right? Because they just came from their meetings. Yeah, exactly. Right, and, right. So it broke in an odd time of day. So I don't think, like, to get a handle on what it means for his draft stock,

I guess my sense of it is, the perception is there's, like, There's two potential, like, franchise altering dudes in this draft, right? And you're talking about him and you're talking about Travis Hunter. So if you were thinking about picking him, if you're the, if you're the Giants, picking third, right? And does this necessarily turn you off of that? If you convince yourself that this is something he's dealing with the short term and will ultimately heal completely and allow him to be the player we know he is, then I think he could still go as high as he otherwise would have. But, you know, if you dig in medically, like, this is going to bug him.

him for his whole career, or this is going to make his career shorter than it otherwise would be. You hear that sometimes? Like, he'll be great for five years, but then that might be it. I'm not, definitely not saying that, but you've heard that of other players in the past. You know, a situation like that, you would maybe, you maybe hesitate. But again, I don't know who you go to. If you're between him and Travis Hunter, does this break the tie in Hunter's favor?

Maybe that's what it does. But you don't go to, like, the next best edge rusher, because you're not just, like, grabbing edge rusher, you're saying, I'm grabbing a franchise cornerstone, and this is how good he is. It's probably not a one-to-one comparison, but the situation this brings me back to going back a long time, he's talking about a 2011 combine. Julio had a screw in his foot coming into that

combine. The Falcons still traded away years' worth of drafts to go get Julio Jones. Every once in a while you have these dudes who are just different. I was talking to a coach yesterday we were discussing the Browns at two and he was just saying, imagine

if you had Abdul Carter and Miles Garrett on the same team, you couldn't drop back to pass. Right. Like, that's the type of player we're talking about here. So I still feel like teams are going to have the appetite for it. Yeah, I agree. I mean, like, it's funny.

Like, one of the big things you always have to remind people, like, the general public fans is, like, not every draft is equal in quality to the ones that came before or the ones that come after, right, like, they may not be as me. So somebody was telling me last night that, like, last year's draft, like, going through the first half of the first round of last year's draft, like, it's a monster compared to this one, right? So, like, Hunter and Carter are two guys that probably. we would have gone in the top 15.

But also sort of maybe not. Like this guy was like, I would have had to debate between Carter and laid too lot too. Like that sounds so he had that perspective as well, which is maybe this isn't quite the greatest and deepest year, especially at the top. Is there any other kind of broader draft thoughts as you've gathered opinions about all of this that have stuck with you from this week? You know, I think people really feel like if you need to build in your defensive front, this is the year.

I think this is one of those years where people feel better. about picking in the later part of the first round than the early part of the first round because of the depth of talent there and the value, right, you're not over. I always try to ask teams like how many first round grades they have in a given year, and it fluctuates. Some will say 18. Almost no one says 32, which is another interesting thing. If you get 20, it feels like it's a decent year.

Right. So sort of starting in on that. But yeah, that's the, if you're picking in the teens, if you're picking in the 20s, you know, I think you're talking about teams. that'll look to move back and add multiple defensive linemen as opposed to just one. So it's, what was it, 15 before a defensive player went last year? I think it's going to be much different this time around. Let's get to the veteran pool and just kind of what the NFL side of this is looking like,

the trade market and free agency. We don't have to get into a fight at a Starbucks about this, but let's talk about Matthew Stafford and how this is going to unfold. What do you think ultimately happens with Matthew Stafford over the next couple weeks here? I think the most likely and sensible outcome here is that he and the Rams work it out. And I don't think that's off the table, but it's not going great. And I mean, I was told yesterday, like, he does not want to leave. You know, his family does not want to leave.

His wife does not want to leave. But he also won't play for their number. So that's, it's got to be one or the other, right? Right. Like, are you telling me he's retiring? Like, he's going to have to either leave or play for their number. at some point, so can he get them to move at all? And the Rams can get a little stubborn.

Like all of a sudden they start thinking about life after Matthew Stafford, and maybe they're on to that, right? And now you've overplayed your hand. So if I were the Rams, I'd call his bluff, I'm not going to buy that he's going to want to go play behind the Giants' offensive line for, you know, another $4,000 or $5 million a year. This guy's maybe made more money than any NFL player ever or top two or three. So it's hard to believe money ultimately decides it.

But I think it's respect. I think he doesn't want to be going year to year anymore. and obviously his number is 27 and a half, which is ludicrously low for a player of his caliber at that position. So something has to be done. I just feel like ultimately it makes too much sense to resolve this if you're the Rams and if you're Stafford, because it seems like they both want Matthew Stafford to be the Rams quarterback next year.

Last year, it felt like this was like a mild annoyance, right? It was just like this. This is a mild annoyance, but we're going to get this done. I think that's part of the problem this year is, like, he would have liked it addressed in a moment. more in a more permanent, more long-lasting way, so they didn't have to do this. And that's part of the reason I think he feels like, hey, they're not respecting me the way I want, right?

They took, I think, $5 million from one of his future years and moved it into last year. Well, you can't just keep doing that because eventually you're going to run out of money in the future years. And he also is like, well, why are we doing this every year? I'm 37. That's not old by NFL quarterback standards. Let's talk about the next three years. Let's talk about finishing my career here.

And they haven't been receptive to that at the numbers he's looking. for. So the fact that they put a Band-Aid on it last year is, I think, part of this year's problem. And I think on their side of it, from the Ram's side it was a mild annoyance where it's just like, all right, we'll deal with this now, but like, the fact that it's come up again this year, I think that's part of the reason they're just like,

you know what? Screw it. If you're going to keep doing this, we're going to move on because we're not willing to commit to you in that way. Yeah, it's young by quarterback standards, but you're banged up. Is the cliff coming faster than we think it's going to come? I understand it from both sides, but I feel the same. I feel the same way that you do. It's mutually beneficial for them to figure this out. If they don't,

there's a lot of unnecessary pride getting in the way here. On both sides. And I mean, like, look, you're talking about, you know, I think they thought it would be a mild annoyance again. Like we did this last, I think once they knew for sure he wanted to come back, they thought, all right, we'll just work out the contract. And it hasn't gone as smoothly as they hoped. And that's why we're here. But we've got to know something soon. If you're the giants or the Raiders, right? Like you've got to know what your plan B is. And if you're the Rams, you've got to know what your plan B is, right? So I think if we don't know something by an early middle part of next week, I would be shocked. I'm going to put you in an unfair position. If you can make a bet right now about whether he stays or goes, what would it be?

All right. Well, first of all, I do not bet on NFL. I'm prohibited and I wouldn't want to do it anyway. I've met too many of these players. But I would say the Rams. I think they get something worked out with the Rams. Because at this point, like he's, been able to talk to teams for weeks, right? He's skiing with Tom Brady and Montana, maybe. And so he knows if he goes to the Raiders what the deal is, that the contract is. And he knows if he goes to the Giants what the contract is. So at this point, at any time, he could make a decision. Like, you know what? We're never going to get there, trade me to one of these teams, right? Or, you know what? Add X number so I don't feel like an idiot for turning this one down, right.

They were a playoff team. They were a final eight team. Why are you messing with that? They gave the Eagles the best run of anybody in the playoffs. So, again, I think it is usually beneficial. Young defense is probably going to get better. Yeah, I don't know. So let's say it's not the Rams.

Okay. Which of those two destinations, Raiders, and Giants, feels more likely to you? I think for me, the answer is Giants just because it's sort of been in my perception zone longer. Right? Like the Giants have been the team that we've been hearing about for a while, the Raiders have kind of come on in terms, not really, but in terms

of us finding out about it, right? More recently. So I think I've spent probably more time thinking about, well, what do you really want to go to the Giants and why? And what would that look like? And why would they do it? So I know they've done the work, but they also don't have Tom Brady, you know, as a closer. So why would the Giants do it is a very good question to me?

And I feel like, to me, it's self-evident. You're looking at your options if you're Joe Shane and Brian Dable. understand we have to win a certain number of games in 2025 to keep our jobs. Matthew Stafford is the best route to winning that number of games. But if I'm John Mara and I'm walking into this scenario and I know these two guys are on the hot seat, there is not a chance in hell. I'm letting them borrow from 2026 and 2027 resources to save their jobs in 2025, even if I understand their motivations in the short term. Right. So I've covered the Giants for a number of years. I know John Mara and how he, looks at his team and perceives it, you know,

talk to him about how devastating it is for him that they have become, not just bad, but irrelevant, right? So, like... Even watch it worse than irrelevant, like a punchline. Right, exactly. Yeah, off-season hard. I mean, everything they've done has been, you know, stepping in it at this point. So he hates that, like, when the Eagles come to town,

it's all Eagles fans, right? And when, you know, the Panthers come to town, it's no fan, right? So I think there's some value even from ownership's perspective in like, let's win some games this year, right? Like maybe Matthew Stafford doesn't put us in the Super Bowl. But if we get from three wins to nine or seven or right, then that's at least giving our fans something to watch.

Mara's one of these owners is very, very cognizant of like, I need my fan base engaged. And he knows it's not unless it's anger that's engaging them. I think that's part of the Seguan thing as well, right? There's a marketability aspect, and there's a fear when you lose somebody like that. Who are you putting on posters? I get all that. Who are we asking people to come watch?

Dexter Lawrence is in the Chunky Soup commercials, but beyond that, there isn't a lot of widespread. People don't show up the games to watch defensive tackle. Like, it's just not a thing. So I think it would be, there's, I think if you're Shane and Dayball, you do have an opportunity to sell, you know, respectability, right? Like incremental improvement to ownership, to convince it. Because here's the other thing. You're just coming out of the Daniel Jones experience of a quarterback that was picked sixth and was not the guy. So if we don't think Cam Ward or Shedarra Sanders is the guy, do we want to, are we at risk of being in the Daniel Jones zone again for the next five years?

And then that sets us back worse than spending money out of 37-year-old having him be the guy for two or three years while we figure it out. I think all this makes sense. And for me, sometimes I can get a little bit too pigeonholed in. How are we maximizing championship opportunities, right? And for me, the idea of trading away significant draft capital and borrowing money from future years when you could be competitive for 37-year-old Matthew Stafford is not optimized team building. That's not what these teams are often after. It's not about optimized team building. And also, think about the other thing from the Giants' perspective. They believe they have their number one wide receiver.

They believe they have their starting left tackle and that he's a top end guy. They believe that they have a very strong defensive line and edge rush. So like draft capital, yes, they need to build up. out their roster, but they can convince themselves the positions where we might use a high second round pick are covered, right? I sort of understand that, and I know that's been the refrain. My response to that would be, okay, those five guys, you just listed off, what else? I hear you.

Where do we go past those five guys? So, yeah, I hear you, yes, it's not just a plug in Matthew Stafford to be okay. It comes at a cost, and they know that. But I do think that those are the conversations are going on between front office and ownership, coaching staff and ownership when we're talking about this. And I think Stafford is their plan. I think they've gotten to the point where that's what they want to do if it works out. And I do think that makes sense.

And looking at it from John Mayer's perspective in that way, that tracks to me. Sometimes this is not about how do we make sure we're optimizing every chance to win a Super Bowl. There are more short-term motivations involved here. I think the Giants have a lot of those. And also that realistic, like we're not one jump away. We have to make multiple jumps here, and it's going to take a couple of years. So maybe bringing in a guy that's won the Super Bowl, that's a veteran, that's going to be a grown-up in the room while we bring some young guys along.

Maybe there's value in that long-term, too. If they don't get Matthew Stafford, do you think that mindset pushes them toward a veteran option like a Sam Donald versus trying to find a guy in the draft? Yeah, I think the next thing that they would do is think about the draft, which of these quarterbacks they think has the chance to be the guy long-term, we need to actually do we need to move up two spots to make sure we get them, right? So we don't get stuck with our second choice who we don't like as much. I think that that'd be where they'd pivot?

Because I don't think that after you don't get Stafford, where are you now in terms of veteran additions? I don't think Sam Darnold for the Giants is going to be a thing. I don't think they're going to bring in a Jets cast off. Again, just a little sense of how the Giants think. It's perception. I understand that. I think would they look at Kirk Cousins when the Falcons cut him? And he'd get him on a minimum deal the way the Steelers do.

with Russell Wilson last year, sure, but he comes with medical questions and age questions and wasn't very good last year. So Aaron Rogers, you can say some of the similar things about him. Justin Fields, what are we getting there? So I think if they don't get Stafford,

their next plan would be, let's see if we can solve it in the draft. If the Rams move on from Stafford, where do you think they ultimately land? I think their ideal would have been a quick pivot to Aaron Rogers, but I don't know if that's going to of work. He's also talked to other teams as well, so I'm not, I mean, it seems like that

would be the spot Rogers would want to go. But I haven't heard much of them on Darnold, which surprises me because why not? Like, you know, if you go from Kyle Shanahan to Kevin O'Connell to Sean McVeigh, that's probably not a bad sort of arc. Here's my, and again, this is just kind of reading T-Leaves and talking to Jordan earlier this week and knowing Sean's affinity for Jimmy. I'm assuming they're looking at, we have Jimmy for nothing, why would we pay Sam Darnold $40 million? So maybe they've positioned themselves to get Tyler Shuck or somebody like that, and maybe he turns into... Right.

I think in their minds, the gap in our offense and what we would be asking them to do between Jimmy and Sam Darnold is not worth the gap in price. We would have to pay those two players. That would be my assumption. That's fair. And yeah, why are you getting in Darnold? Like, are you still, I mean, can you continue his momentum? Does the way the season ended stick with him and snowball? Some people will tell you about Darnold that when bad things start to happen. It's hard to pull them out of that. So, yeah, I don't know. And I think that's part of the reason.

If you're talking about what would be easy for the Rams to call Stafford's bluff, that's probably one reason they don't think it is, because we're not exactly sure what we do at quarterback, and we are a team that's capable of winning the biggest of the big games. I hesitate to say this, but I really do think that they would be comfortable rolling, which would be Garoppolo. And that that scares me because I just think that that's a dangerous life to live. And the word that Jordan used a lot this week earlier when we were talking about it was hubrisic.

Like, right, there's a hubris in that building. And there is. And I think some of it is justified. But at the same time, that feels like one of those moments where you're flying a little bit too close to the sun. Right. Kyle Shanahan thought he could win with Jimmy. Almost did. Josh McDaniels thought he could win with Jimmy.

Like, there's been a lot of hubris around Jimmy over the years. And we've sure seen, I think, he's not a guy you can say he never got a chance. I think we have a pretty good sense of how far you can go with Jimmy Garabolo, and I think that I don't know that that's the right call for the Rams. I want to talk about Donald and his market, but before we do that, just very quickly, what do you think happens with cousins? They're going to have to cut them. Because teams are going to call their bluff.

There's no way they're going to take on $30 million bucks when you can get it for one, right? And so then that makes sense, because we know the Falcons aren't going to carry him at that number as their backup quarterback. So if that happens, is there a team that makes the most sense to you that would say, All right, we, a million dollars of Kirk Cousins is our best option in 2025 in the veteran market. Colts? Like they're looking for somebody that, in case Anthony Richardson's not the guy, in case he keeps getting hurt. Maybe he can push him, you know, they know for a fact that Kirk can coexist in a quarterback room with a young quarterback and not be a jerk to him.

Like, we've seen it. I would. I think that on a logical level, that makes perfect sense. If I were a Colts fan and they did that after the Philip Rivers thing, after the Matt Ryan thing. I would lose my mind. The Joe Flacco thing. I mean, like, it's always something with them, right, with him with an older guy. So, Ballard doesn't want to do that either. No, I know he doesn't. He doesn't like being on that hamster wheel, but then don't pick Anthony Richardson four if you're there. If you really think that's how you're going to get

off of it. And don't pick Anthony Richardson for. And then don't come out publicly and say there's going to be a quarterback competition this week. I, that we have not talked about that at all on the show. The fact that they came out and that explicitly said that there is going to be a competition of quarterback with the guy. We drafted fourth overall two years ago. That was definitely a moment that I did not expect to happen at the podium this week. I think Chris feels fairly cornered at this point. What are you going to do? If Anthony Richardson doesn't work out, then you're probably done, right? You probably bet your whole career on that pick. And I think he knew that in the moment. And if he, so if he's not going to work out and you go and bring in Kirk Cousins and win 11 games

and losing the second round of the playoffs, have you saved your job? Because it's the same story that we did in 2020 all over again. Right. So, like, what are we doing here? Like, we need a long-term vision for the organization. And right now, if that's Anthony Richardson, we don't know if that's going to work. So I think in Chris's ideal situation, you bring in the veteran, you know, and you're sitting there in mid-August going, wow, Anthony looks totally different. Like, I think we're good here, and then he hits the ground running,

and you have, you know, Kirk or whoever veteran is in the classic Tyrod Taylor scenario where he thought he was going to be the starter, and some kid came in and outplayed him. I think this is very clearly an emotional play. in terms of what they're doing here. Because with making it clear, this is going to be a competition. Because I think what the problem is, they're trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube of their mishandling of this from like 2023.

By giving him the starting job immediately, I think it led to a lack of urgency that they're still paying for a little bit. Yeah, they felt like the only way he was going to improve is to play, and so that's why they had to start him. But fundamentally, the biggest concern they have with him is health, not performance. So you're bringing in a veteran, you're thinking about somebody who's probably going to have to play some games.

Like even in the best case scenario, like Anthony's probably going to miss some games. So that's not a good spot to be in either with your franchise quarterback. So, yeah, they're in trouble. So is it someone like cousins or Rogers or is it someone like James Winston, right? Like is that the solution that allows them to keep the door open with Anthony Richardson more than one of those? I mean, bringing Aaron Rogers, he's going to be the starter. He's not going to be in competition with Anthony Richardson. I also think this is something that...

Go back to the darkness retreat and hang out there. Like, there's no... Why am I banging my head against this brick wall? I was talking to a coach yesterday. They're probably going to be looking for a quarterback this off season, and we're just talking about the Rogers thing. And it depends on where your roster is, right? And it depends on where your organization is built like.

If you're the Rams, I think it makes sense. If you're a team with a young roster, it's not necessarily even personality concerns because, you know, people are calling about the Jets. He's a decent teammate, all that kind of stuff. stuff, he's hard on young players. And so if you're a team that needs to play young players, if you're a team that's more methodical in your timeline, and you're worried about the development of those players,

both physically but also from a confidence perspective, adding Aaron Rogers to that equation becomes an unnecessarily volatile piece depending on where you are in your build. And I would say the key, the codicil to what you're saying is you have to, it depends where your roster is, but you have to be correct about that evaluation too, which the Jets kind of weren't, well, I guess we'll really never know whether they were right in 23. I still make that bad every time. I still would. I think it was the right bet and the right moment.

We're not even second guessing. Like in the moment you were probably saying this could go really badly, but it's worth taking the shot. Exactly. And it was, which is easy for us to say none of us got fired and everyone else in the Jets building did. But yeah, they had to do it because they were in that zone of like, well, we don't want to win nine.

Like, we want to win 14 and the Super Bowl. Like, so let's take a shot. So it didn't work, so they're resetting. But now what are you getting with Aaron Rogers? Like, do you, is there a team out there that's going to feel the way about him that Jets did in 2023? I don't think there is. What do you think the Darnold market ends up looking like?

Because there's so many different factors here. How many teams are involved? That's, the price will ultimately settle based on how many teams are willing to push it up. But I don't know what that looks like right now. So I think the Stafford domino has to fall. Yeah. Right? Because if you're the Raiders and you don't get Stafford, does Darnold become your pivot, right?

Does that make sense? And if you're the Giants, you don't get Stafford, does Darnell become your pivot? If Stafford doesn't leave, now that's two teams instead of, right? So to your point, right? Like, what does the market do? So where else would staff, I mean, like, I mean, I don't think Darnell becomes a consideration for the Jets.

I just don't see, again, I don't see how they sell that. Yeah, there's nowhere you could. Right. So, yeah, where else are we looking? That would plug them in as a starter. We talked about the Rams if the thing doesn't work out with Staff. There's no chatter about the Gino Smith situation, right? Like, I haven't heard it at all.

I think they're committed to him. Because in that building, I think that their opinion of Gino is higher than the general public's opinion of Gino. I think you're absolutely correct, but there does need to be a new contract. And until there is, I think that's worth considering an unsettled situation, much like Stafford with the Rams, not, you know, one-for-one comparison, but same kind of thing. Gino's not going to go back and play on that deal. It's the lowest starting quarterback contract in the NFL that's not a rookie quarterback contract. If you look at it stacked up, Gino's making 25, the gap between that and everyone else, those are stopgap starters, they're bridge starters. They're not real NFL quarterbacks.

So if you're a Gino, even if we can hem and haaw, and I'm the wrong person to be talking about this is like the world's biggest Gino booster, but we can have in Heming Hall about where he is in the hierarchy. He is definitively a starting quarterback in the NFL. He's a poor one top 12 player. Right, yeah. So, yeah, I agree with you. I think that that's the guy they would like. But, you know, contract situations can muck this up sometimes, right? So if I were a team, I'd call.

Yes. I would at least call because I think he's a reasonable solution for a lot of people. So, you know, and if that were to happen, does Seattle become a darnled place, right? So I think the darned market has yet to form. And I think that's one of the reasons the Vikings are a little flat-footed because, like, do we franchise him? And I think if you see Minnesota franchise him, it's because they've identified a trade market. Yeah. They know in advance it's going to happen. I don't think Minnesota is going to bring back Sam Darnold and make him their starting quarterback next year.

I think J.J. McCarthy is the one, the guy they want to be their starting quarterback in September. So if they franchise Donald, I think it's because they believe they can trade him. If they don't franchise him, that might tell you a little something about his market, right? Maybe it's not going to be as awesome as you think if there weren't trade suitors. The way that I understand kind of the moving pieces here is that one of the reasons you'd want to trade for him is that you would want to control the negotiation, right? wouldn't want to be having to deal with a bunch of other teams. But if you're a team like Tennessee or you're a team like the Raiders and you think this is going to be a two-horse race without a lot of other teams driving up the price, then you say, we're not willing to give up the draft capital here.

We can sign it anyway. Exactly. And so it's just, if you think there are going to be four or five teams and you think this number starts going from Baker at 33 up to an uptick on the cousins contract, then, well, let's give up a third round pick so we're the only team negotiating here. Yeah, That's fair enough. And I think the other thing is like, I mean, while it's technically illegal, I think, you know, teams and players and agents come out of this week with a pretty good sense of what the offers are going to be. Yes. Right? So I think that's the other thing, too.

I think Minnesota and I think Sam Darnold will know coming out of here, like this is the ballpark we're playing in. And then those other teams that, you know, they'll know who they're competing against. The team that I feel like is a reasonable destination for Darnold depending on the price is Tennessee. Because I think it actually solves a couple things for them. one, this is in regime, even if there's a new front office, they won three games last year. And so the idea of picking a quarterback at one and the uncertainty that comes along with that, even if you're excited about the quarterback, if that doesn't work out, the hourglass gets tipped over real fast. So Darnold at least gives you some level of certainty.

And if you can get him at the Baker price, and then that frees you up to take Abdul Carter or Travis Hunter with the number one pick. A trade back. Yeah. you suddenly become a little bit more, exactly, especially if the Giants want Cam Ward, you go to three, you pick up two seconds in the process, and you still get Carter or Hunter. You still get one of those guys. I think that, if the Darnold Price is right, is potentially attractive to the Titans. I don't think they want to bridge, because I don't think that takes them anywhere. I feel like they want to come away from this

offseason with a long-term answer at quarterback, whether that's Sam Darnold or somebody they take with the first overall pick, those feel like the two most likely pads to me. I think your logic is sound. And what I'm hearing about that one pick the last couple days is a lot of people speculating on trades, like that they would want to move out. I mean, maybe the Giants from three. Maybe the Jets are a team that comes up if they fall in love with Cam Ward, right? So that'd be a big jump relatively.

So if you're Tennessee, you could maybe clean up on that deal and add, you know, multiple seconds and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I think you're probably right in terms of the mentality of that organization. Brian Callahan is probably. a hot seat guy this time next year if they win three games again, right? So now, I don't know, you know, X's and O's wise enough to know if Darnold makes sense for Callahan.

I think at the right price that would be a marriage that makes sense. That's what I would say. And I just think that it depends on the price tag. And if you can get Darnold, if you're the Titans, if you don't come out of this offseason with a quarterback that you can have for multiple years, we always talk about this. Well, they can get

them next year. Who knows? Who knows? Maybe. You stumble into two more wins than you want. You're picking sixth overall next season. You don't have a path to a long-term guy. So it's so easy for us to say, well, they'll pick up extra picks. They'll pick an edge rusher. They'll find the quarterback somewhere along the way.

There's so much uncertainty surrounding that when you have multiple options potentially sitting in front of you this off season, I think that there's a temptation to come away with your multi-year answer in 2025. I think you're probably right. And I think Donald is probably at the top of that, unless they're a Stafford team, but I don't get the sense that that would work. So, yeah, I think you're probably right. All right, before we keep going here with Dan, let's take a quick break.

Cleveland at 2. What do you think their thinking is right now when it comes to quarterback alternative options? And if they don't go quarterback at 2, what does their quarterback pursuit look like in the next couple weeks? You know, probably a disaster as usual. But no, I think they're thinking quarterback at 2. That seems to be the consensus belief around here among the people I've been able to talk to about it. So even to the point of like they make their peace with both of them. And so they don't really care if one goes one, they just take the other.

I have heard that they like a lot of the quarterbacks. Whether that's the first two, the guys further down the draft, some of their options in free agency. I think that they are open to many different paths at that position. But to your earlier point, they're at two. So like you play around with it and maybe you don't have a solution. You don't know when you're going to be at two again. So maybe just take care of it, right?

If you really like these top two guys. if Donald goes to Tennessee. If Donald goes to Tennessee, then I would be surprised if Cam Ward wasn't the Brown's quarterback next year. Unless somebody goes up to one to take him, right? So I think the... So, like, Deshawn Watson has two years left on his contract.

We don't know if he's going to play this year, right? Multiple Achilles repair surgeries in a three-month span, like most recent was January. Like, he's got two years left on his deal, and the odds are he's probably going to only participate in one of them. I don't think you'll ever play quarterback from the Cleveland Browns again. So the 46 million a year fully guaranteed is, sunk cost. They have it. They're stuck with it. There's nothing they can do about it.

Try and force Deshawn Watson back in there be a huge mistake. So they are operating like a team that does not have a quarterback and needs one for the long term. So I think that's why you're hearing a lot about them with quarterback at two. I feel like Kirk Cousins is a viable option for them as well. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Again, Kirk Cousin is going to be free. Right? Like he's going to cost you a minimum salary like Russell Wilson did the Steelers last year. So the rounds whose cap is in a disastrous situation and would be even more so if they end up being forced to trade Miles Garrett. That's a great idea for them, a zero cost addition because they have other issues to worry about financially. The Miles Garrett's side of this. Where do we think this sits?

They don't want to trade him. Cap-wise, they honestly can't. Like, his cap number goes up from 19-something to 36-something if they trade him. Yeah. And you can't trade a guy in March and designate him a post-June-first trade. That's not like you do with the post-June-first cuts. The trade actually has to wait till after June 1st to happen. So they're stuck. And if you wait until after June 1st to do it, you're getting 20-26 picks that probably aren't going to be that great because you've just traded Miles Garrett to that team.

And so I don't know how, but the best and most logical outcome for the Cleveland Browns is to find some way to make peace with Miles Garrett and have them on the team. because they've redone the contract so much and the bonus proration is, you know, unavoidable. How dug in is he? Is there any way prior to April's draft to really know that? No, because there won't have been mandatory work that he could have skipped, right?

Like, who won't be able to convince you by the end of April that he's really not going to play? And he doesn't show for that stuff anyway. So I think they're stuck, and I think, you know, look, I think there's one solution that would make this all go away real quick. I just don't think they're going to do it. And it is a fully guaranteed contract for Miles Garrett because you gave it to that clown. So I've never done anything wrong.

I've never done anything but play great for you. Why don't you give me a fully guarantee? But I don't think they're going to go back down that road because now all of a sudden, everybody's banging your door down for that. I would be surprised if he were traded before the draft. Yeah, I would too. I would be surprised if you were traded at any point before training camp. Because I think they're going to do everything they can to see this all the way

through and call his bluff. I agree. Maybe that's posturing, but just based on conversations, I would be really, really surprised if something happened in the short term here. I don't think they're posturing. The question is, can someone make them an offer that convinces them to change their belief that they don't have to trade them? Can someone offer them enough to change their mind about how dug in they are on that situation? I don't think the answer is yes, because the acquiring team also knows it's going to have to give him a new contract. Yeah. So that obviously keeps your, unless you're the Browns, it keeps you from overpaying with draft

picks if you know you're going to have to give out that whopper of a contract when you get the guy. So I think they can sit back and then see if he's still, if he's sitting out in camp, we've seen it over the years. I mean, I go back like years ago, I think Clownie did it right in Houston where he sat out, Ken, they ended up trading him in early September. So it could happen, but. I don't think he wants to do that either.

And I think they're going to try to call his bluff on that. I don't think they wanted to get that acrimonious near the end of training camp. I think their hope is he breaks down the door on Labor Day weekend and we see him show it for week one and that's enough for them. I think the question of would they trade him for the right price is yes, but I just don't think that price is rooted in reality. I would agree with that. Let's say it's two ones. I don't think they would do it for any two ones because in their minds, we're looking at this and we say, okay, everyone's going to say we're this rebuilding team that has no shot over the last couple years.

But they have the second overall pick. They have real draft capital for the first time. And I think we underrate this, but teams do think this way, you're always closer than you think from turning things around. So in our minds, what is better for the 2027 Browns when we're ready to compete? Is it the 25th pick in this draft and the 28th pick and next year's draft from Buffalo? Or is it Miles Fibin Garrett? It's the latter.

And I think that is where they're ultimately going to land here. Right. Again, the caveat is, unless they are convinced he will not play for them. But I still don't know how he convinces them of that other than just continuing to threaten it, right, until September. Exactly. The only way you can become convinced of that is if it goes through camp and this is a different situation. It's week one and he's not there.

Then you're convinced. Yeah. Let's get to some of the other free agents here before we get out of here, obviously the bigger names from this class. What do we think happens with T. Higgins? I think the Bengals are going to franchise him because they're trying to sign them long term and they'll franchise them and use that tag in a way that it was originally intended to be used, which is keep a guy off the market while you would negotiate a long-term

deal with him. So I think they've listened to their quarterback. I think they recognize that upsetting their quarterback is a mistake that would cripple their franchise. They are trying to get money for stadium renovations. This is a thing that is often overlooked in terms of why teams spend money, but they They need good vibes around the team. They need public support.

So I think you hear Duke Tobin standing up there the other day talking about we think we can get everybody signed. We have the cap room. They do have the cap room. The Bengals issue, as usual, is not cap. It's cash, right? They don't guarantee any money outside of the signing bonus in their veteran contracts, except for Burrow. So if Jamar Chase really wants to beat the Justin Jefferson deal in every way, he's going to want second-year guarantees. And if that's the case, there's a chance they never sign him, because Cincinnati's.

not likely to break their precedent for that. So if they do, that'll tell you special circumstances. We've changed the way we operate because we have Joe Burrow, because we're trying to get money for a stadium renovate. You know, like all that kind of, like they sold the naming rights to their stadium, which they said they would never do. Oh, Paycor. What a beautiful building is. So there's reason to believe the Bengals might do something out of their comfort zone

to get Higgins, Chase, Hendrickson, all under contract. And that's why I think they probably end up franchising him to keep him off the market, give themselves another, what is it, four months to get a deal done with him. If teams that do not get T-Higgins, obviously very different players, but if we're looking at the wide receiver market, Chris Godwin is kind of the consolation prize potentially. What do we think happens with Chris Godwin over the next couple weeks? His team, the Buccaneers are trying to sign him back.

You know, this time last year they were trying to sign Mike Evans back, and it looked like maybe they couldn't get that done, and they did. So the Buccaneers have a pretty good track record of keeping the guys they want to keep. So what's the Chris Godwin number? He's coming off significant injury. It's third contract, not second. Like, you know, I feel like the Bucks probably find a way to keep him. I think it's a good relationship.

And, man, he was as good as anybody in the league last year before he got hurt. It's unbelievable. Production-wise, right? So, obviously, you know Baker likes him, and he fits with the – well, he fit with the previous offense. They change coordinators every year because the guys become head coaches. Like, I would – I don't think people lining up for that job. Hey, I can be a head coach in a year. But, yeah, I think they probably – and if he doesn't go back there, then I think he does become a really kind of –

hot free agent because who else are you looking at? So many teams can talk themselves into him. I'd rather have him than Cooper Cup and Debo Samuel at this point in their careers. Undeniably. I think younger and coming off of a year where he had extreme production and looked like one of the best receivers in the league for what his role is. And I also think that you can, because of how he plays, because he's in the slot, because he's a screen, you can use him on screens, because he's a

blocker. He fits so many rooms. Use him in a red zone. Like he's, yeah, he's everything you want. So would you rather have him or Devante Adams? Like these are the, like you talk about free agent receivers, you're talking about the guys that are going to get cut, right? The veterans. So, yeah, I think he's right there at the top if Higgins doesn't hit the market. So all the receiver teams, right?

The teams we talk about when we talk about receiver, you know, New England and teams like that that are going to be in on every single receiver that there is, yeah, he probably becomes very appealing. The receiver market in general is so interesting here because we're going to get to a place we're already there. none of the receivers are going to hit free agency. Right. And which is so funny because if you think about the competing factors here,

there are more receivers. This class is obviously an exception to this. But most years, there are three, four, five receivers available in the first round. But these teams are so, they find them so valuable that they're like, oh, we can't let them leave. We can't let them leave. And so the fact that teams are still willing to pay these guys and there's anxiety about losing them despite the fact that the supply is bigger than it's ever been,

at some point we'll probably reach critical mass here, but we are not there yet, clearly. Right. Is Jamar Chase going to be the last, you know, mid to high 30 million a year wide receiver deal? Because at some point the bottom will fall out. There are teams, I don't know, 10, 12, 8, whatever. There are teams that I promise you think that 30 plus million a year for a wide receiver is unacceptable and we'll never do it. Like there are eight starters in the draft every year. Like we don't need to pay a wide receiver $35 million a year. year. So I think the number of teams that feel that way will increase. And I think

it, I do. Critical Mass is a good way to put it. I think the bottom kind of falls out of that, if it makes sense, the bottom falls out of the top end of the market at some point and it resettles. And, you know, I mean, Alman Ross St. Brown is probably making what a top wide receiver should be making, right? The high 20s, right? And I think there are a lot of people who look at that contract and that we would never do that. But he's so valuable to the alliance. Right. Right. And so, like, And that's what keeps happening here, is that in a vacuum, if you're looking at this on a spreadsheet, it's like, oh, well, why wouldn't we slide this guy out and pay a rookie contract?

But the Lions are probably sitting there being like, well, we can't imagine our offense without I'm on Rosson-Brow. And that's how the Bengals are. That's how the bucks are. So this keeps happening. It reminds me a little bit of the quarterback conversation, where in theory, you should look at what the dolphins do and think, well, we could do this with someone else for five million bucks. But then teams just aren't willing to do it. They don't have the stomach for making that decision at the end of the road.

because you really don't see it done. I mean, like, how many playoff games of the Dolphins won with two of Tunga bylaw? Like, it's not, you know, ultimately Sam Darnold turned into a pumpkin. Like, all the good feeling, all the good vibes on his Viking scene. Now, no, I don't know. Like, it didn't get it done. So if you're not elite at that quarterback position, you have reason to think that maybe we can't win. So I think that, and in terms of the receiver, Bengals aren't the only team that's scared of pissing off their quarterback.

So that's another reason, right? Absolutely. You don't want to let Jared Gough down by letting Amman Ross St. Brown walk out the doors. So, yeah, I do think it settles. I don't think it bottoms out completely, but I don't think the top of the receiver market just continues to skyrocket for the, you know, for the foreseeable future. The one free agent in the top five here of all these rankings that likely is going to hit the market is Trey Smith. We anticipate him getting paid a lot. Any teams that you have your eye on right now?

New England. I mean, I think that's like they would be ready to go, right? if they get worried that he's not going back to Kansas City. But certainly they're not the only one. I mean, like everybody, needs offensive line help, obviously. But that's the team that they have the most cap space. They have ownership that will spend. They have a young quarterback that everything needs to be about him.

And so his protection is their number one and number two priority this offseason. So I think they're the team poised to take the huge swing on a guy like Trey Smith if he gets out of Kansas City. And Unwinu can move to right tackle if they want him to, right? So you've already committed to him, but there's flexibility there. I think Chicago is still a team we're paying attention to. Yep. I don't, I question the... Their caps is in good shape, too.

Very good. And so obviously there's the connection with Ryan Poles. They've said they want to spend. And so I expect them to make a run. If Trace Smith ended up in Chicago on a top of the market deal, I would not be surprised. So Ryan Poles has very specific ideas about player acquisition. And like when you saw him get there, like he started trying to convince himself he could find offensive line solutions in the fourth, fifth, sixth round because, like, the way he and his

people scouted them and how they fit, hasn't worked. So does he pivot to, all right, let's just go get the best guy? Like, we have the money, let's go do it. I would not be surprised about it. Right. So I think that's, I think that's probably one to watch as well. Hey, they kept their number one receiver under 30 million. Like, that's a win. So, right? And now they have a guy that drafted last year who could even be better. So, yeah, their cap is in good shape. Their roster needs help, but there are worse ones out there. And protection of the quarterback needs to be their priority too. Anybody else on your mind before we wrap up here?

Like in a world? Just any other players that you've been particularly interested in the conversations we've had about them this week? Let's think, let's think, let's think. I mean, look, it's some nitty-gritty guys on the defensive side of the ball. Like, you know, is Milton Williams going to get a whole bunch of money? Like, I'm hearing the Cowboys are trying to sign Oso Digi Zua to keep him off the market. I think that tells you a little bit about what you're

should expect the pool of impact defensive front seven players to be. Like, I think those guys are going to do really, really well. You know, we're looking at extension. Like, is it time for, you know, guys like Drake London and people like that to start getting extensions? What do those look like? I'm just kind of rattling through, like I'm looking around at tables, see if I can see a team name to jog something. It's just an incredible week.

I mean, you know what it is. It's overload. We had plenty here. We had plenty here. I think that darn old conversation, how the quarterback stuff shakes out. Purdy contract. That's going to be a big one. Like, where is that land?

Yeah. It just feels like this is a cost of living upgrade on the Trevor Lawrence, Jordan Love thing, and we'll just go from there. Well, yes, if you talk to Purdy's agent, I'm sure he would tell you all the ways that Purdy's been better than Trevor Lawrence was his first three years. And he's right. That's fair. I think we have to take, if I'm Purdy's agent, I'm saying that every single time.

If I look at the contract that Jordan love God. He is. Yeah, right? And I understand that. I saw him last night. No, the, yeah, because, right, because, I mean, like, he's been seventh and first the last two years in QBR. The highest Trevor Lawrence has ever been his 16th. Like, you know, yeah.

That's the nuance of that and why that's potentially true is not Brock Purdy's agent's problem. No, it's his asset. Yes. Absolutely. That truly does not matter. Yeah. It's an easy discussion for Brock Purdy's. Asia. I just put some numbers in front of you and say, you know, I want 1.8 time or 1.8% more than that.

And that's, it's easy to do that. But are the 49ers okay? Like, is that, like, that's the question, right? Like, are the 49ers going to do it? I think yes. I think, I, but, you know, if they balk at it, if they say, well, we made you and it's not quite, you know, and truth be told, like, it's not fair. But, like, how you entered the league often affects your ability to, like, your starting point in these contract negotiations. This guy's been making 600 grand a year, where Trevor Lawrence had already made $30 million by the time he was up for a contract. So that's not fair, but it does, teams do use that. You know, like, hey, well, the player was like, well, I got drafted so late I haven't made any money.

I was like, well, you should have played better in college. Dan Graziano, sincerely appreciate the time. Yeah, man, this is fun. Thanks for having me. Chat with you. Great to see you. And we will talk to you very soon. Sounds good.

Thanks. All right, before we get to our conversation with Jeff's Rebeck, let's take a quick break. joining us now running through our stretch of conversations here about the teams that we're calling on the cusp. They're on the cusp. What do they need to get over the cusps? This is the only circumstances that you ever use the word cus is when you're talking about a team that can't win a championship. It's Jeff Saribeck who covers the Ravens for us here at the athletic. Jeff, how has your combine week been? We're running these next week, but we're recording them during combine week. So if we all feel or sound a little bit haggard still, even though the combine is behind us, it's because we're recording these in real time. Yeah, I'm dragging a little bit now.

But good week. I think one of the exciting things for the Ravens is this draft class really matches up with what they need. You know, I was hanging around here looking at some of these big defensive linemen and saying, yeah, he'd fit and he'd fit. And this edge Russia would look nice. And so, yeah, it's been an interesting week, as always. Ravens have 11 picks. So they'll be quite busy in the next couple months. So this is interesting because this will leave me.

what do you think the Ravens Zines are? Do you think defensive front is like where you would start? Because I'm curious how you would stack them up. Yeah. I would say, you know, for years, Ozzie Newsom built the stream like he used to say from the inside out. And they really haven't, I mean, they haven't picked a defensive lineman or interior defensive lineman in the first round since Helodinata. I mean, they've mostly tried to get that guy in the mid-round's.

And, you know, I just think it's both fronts. Now, their offensive line probably overachieved. last year after replacing three starters. They had the number one rank run defense and second league in sacks. They did some good things. But if you go back in that Buffalo game and your final memory of

the 2000, you know, 24 Ravens of why they came up short, I mean, they get dominated up front by the bills on both fronts. And I just think they need to get younger along the defensive line, get another stud in there that could, you know, get to the quarterback and offensive line, depending on what happens with Ronnie

Stanley and Free Agency. You you have at least one spot you need to fill, if not two, if Stanley departs in free agency. So let's talk about free agency and their flexibility here. Before we started recording, I was telling you, if you look at it right now as it currently stands, the Ravens have about $13 million-ish in cap space. They have some levers they can pull to get more of that. So how many of those levers do you think they're willing to pull? And what do you think that number settles in as we kick off free agency here in about 10 days?

Ravens have a strategy of like they create money when they need it right they're never a team that's just going to make this wave of salary cap cutting moves and have this big number of salary cap space they you know they'll they'll create a little bit early make a few early moves in free agency and then they'll just sort of create it later in the process as they get you know as opportunities come the two obvious moves is marcus will be gone he'll be let go that's a formality and it's likely our Arthur Millett will be let go to, but that's not a ton of savings in either. So I think there's going to have to be one or two relatively significant, notable ways to create a chunk of cap space. An interesting one, maybe doing something with Lamar's contract. I mean, Eric DeCosta kind of dropped a nugget that he's going to go to South Florida and talk to Lamar.

And, I mean, I think they're almost ready to extend his deal already, or at least talk about it. I mean, his contract over the next, this year, his cap, it's high as it should be, but in the following two years, it's over, it's like $75 million. So at some point in the next year, they're going to need to address his contract. So that's one way. Do they trade marks? Is that just a simple restructure at this point, or do you feel like it's more complicated than that? I think they'll try to extend them.

I think, you know, but again, you're going to have to make them the highest paid quarterback in the league, obviously, to get them to sign an extension. So, but it could be. They could restructure it. Avoid years. They could do all that. I think the other notable one, Robert, is what do they do with Mark Andrews? Like, that's 11 million of caps space right there.

We know the Ravens are not a team that's going to be heavily involved in Free Agency. They'll resign a couple of their own guys, maybe add one notable piece from the outside, and then just wait until the prices go down and get some bargains. I don't think they'll release him or they'll waive him. I just think he's too good of a player. He's Lamar's favorite target. But look, they're in a situation where all three, of their tight ends or in the final year of their deals.

Likely Andrews and Kohler. And I think they understand Andrews is likely is four and a half years younger than Andrews. So I don't know that they extend Andrews. So if a team comes to him and says, look, we'll drop you a mid-round pick or

maybe a third or fourth rounder for Mark Andrews and the Ravens will look at it like, you know what? We'll take the 11 million of caps savings and more draft capital. I wouldn't put that by. So I don't be interesting. There's other moves. You can extend Derek Henry, which I think they'll explore at some point. You know, Marlon Humphrey's another guy heading towards the end. There's a lot of ways they can

create space. As you said, it's what lever do they push? So if they, let's say they get to $35-40-ish million with some of these moves. What do they prioritize? How are they your marking that money in your opinion? I think it's again, it's a new year where they have to work on solidifying the offensive line. Ronnie Stanley is a clear free agent priority. It's a It was surprising kind of during this week how much confidence they said that they're going to get this done. Harbaugh pretty much said he's probably going to be back, which is, I mean, no team loses as many free agents every year as the Ravens as we always find out when they get all these comp picks. But they seem, both DeCost and Harbaugh seem pretty strong that they absolutely expect him to be back, which suggests they've already gained some traction. So I think the priority will be getting him done, you know, at left tackle.

I just think they're going to fill in accordingly with other players. I think you need a veteran corner. You know, they're comfortable with Nate Wiggins and Marlon Humphrey, but Brandon Stevens is a free agent. Who's going to be that third corner? I think they'll draft one like always, but you need a guy that's going to be ready to play on week one. And I think for them specifically, this corner class,

there's a lot of workable players, but a lot of them are older. Yeah. So a lot of them are 28, 29, 30. For some teams, that might scare you off just because, well, does that align with our time? timeline of we're rebuilding team with money. For the Ravens, if you get two good years out of Charverius Ward at the end of this, that's okay.

That's where they are right now. Exactly. So I actually think the makeup of this cornerback group in free agency actually fits what they need in the short term and probably price-wise too. Yeah. And I mean, I think with the talent along, you know, the defensive front, you know, will they sign a veteran defensive lineman maybe? But I don't think that's going to be a priority in free agency.

So I think, you know, maybe adding a couple veteran pieces in that secondary. They really don't have another safety right now. It's Kyle Hamilton and a bunch of other guys. I'm an Ardarius Washington fan, but I understand that. And he's a free, you know, he's a restricted free agent. So I do think they'll keep him. They'll probably have to put a second round tender on them to make sure to keep him. But, you know, that's a team, as you know.

They love to put three safeties out there and load the feel with DBs. And part of the reason I think that, what happened yet last year is things got so specific in how they had to play because of what happened with Marcus Williams that they had no choice but to essentially play Kyle Hamilton's safety the entire season. And I feel like even though that worked and it did solidify the back end of the defense, they don't want to have to play a certain way. Yeah, I think you like to have the flexibility to match Hamilton up, to move him up closer to line of scrimmage at different times, to get him closer to the ball, to blitz him at times more. And you kind of lost that

ability a little bit with Marcus Williams and Eddie Jackson struggles. I mean, they were a disaster on the back end for about half a lot season. I remember last year during training camp, you and I talking about this and just the sense of like, all right, like, now it's just going to be Eddie Jackson. You know, can they find just the next guy? Exactly. And this is how this team tries to do things, where it's, we're going to make these modest moves and we're going to hope that the infrastructure that we have can kind of carry us. And it works until it doesn't. And I think that the Eddie Jackson thing was a good example. Yeah, yeah, they hit on a lot of them. I mean, you look at how they hit on Kyle Van Nuoy, and it's still kind of re-bend. Van Nuys. Like, it's just so many of these little,

tiny, marginal moves that they make. It's like, they're getting the best versions of these guys, and then the Eddie Jackson one just didn't hit the same way. Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, and that's what they're going to do. That's what they do. They're going to bargain shop. Now, you know, they always do it every year. They come out and they add, like, one piece. This past year was Derek Henry. Like, but for the first 72 hours of free agency, as a Ray, Evens B guy. I'm writing about the guys who leave. That's just what I'm used to. I'm not really writing him any of the guys who were coming in. Marcus Williams is like the only exception in the last five years. When that happened, I was like, oh my God. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, they didn't even anticipate that,

but he was still there. And they're like, oh, wait a second, you know? So, and DeCosta reminded that of us, reminded us of that this week. He's basically, you guys now know we operate. We're not going to be busy and free agency. I mean, it's just an understanding. And to be honest with you, Robert, This is the, I've been covering the team since about midway through 2011 season. So this is one of their, I don't want to say worse because I'd be disrespecting the players available. But this is one of their most lowest profile free agent classes they've ever had. I mean, you go through the list and Stanley's the big one and they're going to try to get

that done. But then, you know, you look in a lot of these like two, they've like 18 unrestricted guys and I'd be willing to bet like 65, 70% of them are going to be one year, close the league minimum guys. A lot of them are just kind of complimentary pieces, special teams guys, key backup. So I don't think they're going to have to spend a whole lot of money beyond Stanley on keeping

their guys. They're obviously going to try to keep fullback Pat Ricard, but he's a fullback. As good as he is, there's not going to be a huge market for him. Otherwise, I don't see them having to spend their ton of money on their own guys. So that's part of the reason we haven't seen them make any cap-cutting moves to this point. I've been a little

surprised by that. They've been very quiet, but I think we'll see a wave of them next week. Ronnie Stanley's situation is so interesting on a bunch of different levels. One, you understand how it got here, right? Typically, when you have a left tackle that played, okay, let's say Ronnie Stanley played at his 2024 level in 2022 and 2023. It never would have gotten here. They would have gotten this done.

They would have figured it out. But I understand DeCosta and that entire group, not wanting to commit to him long term after those last couple seasons because he's been hurt and it's been very up and down. So that's how you get to this point where it's like, well, now he's playing well again. have to figure this out. And in a lot of other positions, you either have somebody in the pipeline, another edge rush or another defensive lineman, or you think this is a position we can solve in free agency in the middle rounds. Left tackles a different beast. You can't just kind of throw a couple bodies at the problem and hope you figure it out. That's a dangerous way to live when you're

in a title window. So I understand why this becomes a big priority. It's just a different sort of scenario. Exactly. I mean, you know, like, to Stanley's credit, this guy took a seven $7.5 million pay cut last year. And kind of like one of those, I'm the bet on myself. Like I talked to him about it is it's like I just was uncomfortable with the fact that my legacy in Baltimore my last year in 23

was going to be as a guy who hardly could take the field. And when I did, I got beat for a big sack in the AFC championship game and I just had a bad season. I wasn't myself. So he was willing to take that huge pay cut bet of himself. You know, and here in Indianapolis, I've heard

all over the map. Like there's, you know, we ranked him as our number three free agent in the athletics rankings, I've heard some people say, I don't think his market's aiming to me that high. I think it's going to be a buyer beware thing. You know, his age, his injury history, never played 17 games before last year. And I've had other people say, look, so many teams have more money and more cabspaced than they know what to do with. He's the most proven guy available. It's a position where they go south real quick in this draft. Like if you don't get a left tackle early, you're probably not going to get one. And that's going to be start in day one. So it'll be interesting to see what they do. But obviously, I think it would

be best for the Ravens scenario to get that done in the next 10 days here. So they don't have to worry about, you know, where his market goes and, you know, when he gets there. A lot of what we're talking about right now is fixing things on the margins, smaller moves, really maintaining the status quo the best that you can. Is there anything more extreme that needs to happen here? Is there anything more urgent that needs to happen here? I think you could very easily, as a Ravens fan or someone in the building, sit there and watch what happened last season and say, we still think we have the best team. We still think that if we stay the course, we're ultimately going to be able to get over the top at some point based on the talent that we have. Is that naive? Do you think

that there is something they need to do that's a little bit more above and beyond to kind of break through in a more aggressive way? Yeah, the hardest question, I get it all the time, and we discussed it earlier, like, how does this team get over the hump? Is it a piece that gets them over the hump? Is it a change with how Harbaugh does things or the coach. I mean, there's been some big games where the coaching staffs kind of come up small. And it's the hardest thing to answer because we've watched this team for three or four years, and they just dump trucks

and really good teams, like in the regular season. You could make a case that they've been the best team. And then they just kind of get, they just don't play up to their capability in the defining games in the playoffs. And so, it's just so hard to define. Is it a player that's going to get them over the hump? I think the dream scenario, but it's just so unraven. like, to help them get over hump would be get one of these game-changing defensive stars, right?

I mean, their defense plays so well together. You've done a great job over the years documenting it. They have a lot of pieces that people like, love. There's all pros, Roquan and Kyle Hamilton. But do you have that pass rusher, like a Parsons type, that other teams fear, and in the biggest moments of the game, you can make a sack or strip sack, and it's going to be the difference of you holding a leader, you winning a game. And I think if they had that game-changing defensive player on that defense,

everything else would fit so great, and that could be the one piece that takes them over the hump. But, A, where do you find the money to get that guy? Are you willing to trade a ton of draft capital? It would be so unlike the Ravens to go out and get that guy. But, hey, if I'm Eric DeCost, I'm at least making those calls to see if it's possible. It's kind of a similar scenario to what's going on with the bills. it's not surprising because when you're picking at the end of the draft, it's just hard to be in the range to have these world-changing defensive talents.

Kyle Hamilton's an exception to that. They picked him a little bit higher, though. But where they were getting O-Way or a job in the second round, you're just hoping that these guys you're getting at 29 to 35 hit at a different level than they have. Always very similar to me to what Greg Rousseau is for the bills. He's a good player. Yeah, exactly. But he's not that guy where the other offensive coordinator is losing

sleep the week that you're playing against them. And I just wonder where does that come from? And the same thing with Buffalo, where you can talk yourself into, just keep chipping away. Just keep chipping away. We'll get one of them at some points. I can understand thinking that, but I also think there's a danger in thinking that.

Because if it doesn't happen, then you're sitting there in 2029 being like, I cannot believe we never did it. And that's the danger. Yeah, and they just, the fans, Raven fans think they're too set in their ways. and they need to kind of get out of their comfort zone. And Eric DeCosta needs to do the F-the-picks and just go all in on it something and do something.

You know, I think there's some truth to the fact that if there's a guy available, take a shot, right? I mean, but, you know, they're not getting Miles Garrett. The friends aren't trading of Miles Garrett. And that's the problem is I think the two pass rushers who are theoretically available in this year's like veteran trade. market are in your division. Yeah, exactly.

Trey Hendrickson and Miles Garrett are not going to Baltimore. No, and it's just, there's only so many of those players out there. And, you know, I understand what Eric DeCost is doing. I mean, you just, you try to, you give your team so many kicks at the can and you build as strong as a roster you possibly can,

and you feel like at one point they're going to break through. But, yeah, I mean, when you ask me that, it's just so hard to define why they can't get over the hump. The easiest way to put it is their best players have not been played at their top levels when the games have mattered the most. They've just been decidedly unclutch, and that seems to happen year after year. And what do you do about that? Like, that's the

thing. Raven fans are like, you've got to get rid of Mark Andrews. He's been bad in the playoffs. Okay, Mark Andrews is a big reason why you've won so many games. I mean, I'm not saying you can't move on from them, but it's just hard to say that, like just cut bait on a player because of a bad performance in the playoffs. So that's what they have to figure out. How do they get over this hump? Is it a player that's been the difference in doing it or is it something we're doing as an organization? I wonder, again, the Miles Gair and the Trae and the Trianics thing, those are off the board. Yeah. You look at all the picks that they have and I know that no one loves his picks more than Eric

Takasta. Like it just, and every single year opening all the ones they have and be like, oh, there's a comp pick in the fourth round. There's two in the fifth round. There's three in the sixth round. They operate like that way for a reason. I just wonder if there's something akin to the Will Anderson trade here that the Texans made. We're like, can we get a little bit more aggressive?

Can we wield some of that draft capital we have to take ourselves into a different tier of prospect than we would be able to pick based on where we finish during the season? That seems out of character enough for them that I wouldn't anticipate it, but I'm just trying to be creative here and like what the swings are. Yeah, and, you know, I think right now if you look at the draft, I mean, if you're a betting man, you'd say it's either going to be a lineman or a pass rusher there. But if there's a pass rusher that kind of slips into that mid, they're not going to trade their whole draft and future drafts to get up into the top top 10.

Exactly. You know, they're not going to do that. But if there's somebody at 15 that you love, is it just like this is worth swinging for? Go up and get them. Yeah, I think they would have to really strongly consider that. I mean, it's a pretty good roster. They're going to lose some guys. But, you know, a lot of the late round or depth pieces, right?

but this is an opportunity to add if you get a guy and this may be a draft that's you know kind of a buyer's market because everyone talks about how you know the quality player is very similar right in the mid to later round so if there's a chance for a guy that you're in love with you know that slips you know why not I mean the one year they tried and so many years ago they basically were willing to go up and tried so hard to get into the top five to get calio mac and like it was kind of like

uncharacteristic. Another year they really tried to move up far to get Marshawn Lattimore. So they've shown if there's that right guy, they're willing to sacrifice a lot to go up and get them. The question is who is that guy this year and does he fall enough for them to even consider it? Yeah, the 2013 Ravens were 8-8. So that puts you in a slightly better position to go get a clue back. But this is the case with all of these teams. At a certain point, you become victims of your own success where you're sitting here and like we have one of the quarterbacks. We have the most important thing in the world. We've done a good job finding value with these other picks. You think about what Tyler Linderbaum is and what Kyle Hamilton is and what Justin Matabeeke is,

is. But then you wake up at the end of the day and you just don't have those one or two guys that are truly game-changing forces because you've been picking between 25 and 32 for the last seven years. And so it's just a problem and a challenge that I think a lot of these teams are working through. And I find it a fascinating challenge because when you're in Eric DeCosta seat or Brandon Bean's seat or Brian Gun-Kun's seat, you're trying to balance these things. You're talking, it's so easy to tell yourself, what we're doing is working, what we're doing is working. If we stay the course, we'll be competitive every year, we'll be competitive every year.

We don't want to overexert ourselves and throw away a season two years from now when we don't have to, but at the same time, when you can't kick down the door at a certain point, it starts getting frustrating. And so I feel like the Ravens are very much in that situation. Yeah, and I mean, how many years are you going to get the Lamar that we saw last year. I mean, how many years can you count on that? You can't count on that type of season, but the last thing I'll say about this, and I think this is important to remember, and it's something I've tried to bring up every time we discuss the Lamar playoffs thing. Lamar Jackson, as he

currently exists, with an offense that gives him an opportunity for flexibility in the offseason, where it's like, we are, the, the offense is in 2019, even when they were the best offense in the league. I know they were the best offense in the league. It was such a hyper-specific offense. the passing game was not very. They didn't have answers against everything. That's really only been the case for the last two years. So this idea of Lamar keeps failing in the playoffs, it keeps coming up short in the playoffs,

this isn't an excuse. The version of Lamar that I think should be truly judged on his playoff success and failure is the last two years. And he did not play his best in this game. So if that continues, then I think we can start a dialogue. But right now, I'm just not there yet because I think this version of who the Ravens are,

where you have the ability to be a bunch of different teams when teams are having these hyper-specific game plans against you in the playoffs, that still feels new enough that I want to see it peter out a couple more times before I get really worried. Yeah, I mean, that one year he took over halfway through the season. That's ridiculous. The idea that we're putting the 2018 Ravens' playoff loss on Lamar is so stupid to me. Yeah, and I mean, even that game in the Titans game,

where they're the number one seed, they won like 14. straight to the end of the season. They lost in the divisional round the Titans. He was the only guy that kind of showed up on the field. Remember that one playoff game? Yes, but that's the team I'm talking about. That offense was incredible, but think about what that offense was. I mean, it's Seth Roberts basically as

it was Lamar and the Smurfs. That's what that team was. And so I just think that this is the fully mature version of the Ravens that we've seen over the last couple years. The bet they made on Monkin and what he could give them was correct. It was the right thing to do and now you've realized what sort of team

can be. And even to me, the maturation and improvement from 23 to 24, when I, I, I, every, whenever we talked about Lamar versus Josh Allen this offseason, I kept coming back to this idea of, I think there's still a gap between them, because you can take Lamar out of his game by pressuring him. If you blitz and you speed him up, he becomes a different player in these moments. Well, then that didn't happen in 2024. He was one of the best quarterbacks in the league against the blitz. So that improvement from 23 to 24, if we think this is, you know, indicative of what they can do year and year out where he's still getting better, then I think that also changes your calculus if you're someone like Eric Acosta. It's like, we don't have to be making decisions

based on 2022 or 2023 Lamar. We can think that he's even going to be a better version of himself moving forward. And so there are just so many different variables here, and that's what makes it difficult. Yeah, and I also think people don't want to hear it because the end result was a loss in Buffalo and finishing short of their goal. I think he made strides in the playoffs this year. I really do. I know he had the shaky. It was like two drives. He had the interception. He had the fumble.

I mean, he led them down the field late in the game with no baitment on the field. Zay Flowers was out. And they were, Mark Andrews dropped, you know, two-point conversions from tying that game in the final minute. I thought he played really well at times in the second half. I thought after the game, he even showed how much he's matured a little bit. I think he made some strides this year in the playoffs. I really do. I did not sink.

He did it in the moment. early against Buffalo, but I thought he really settled in when things, you know, he was getting rushed a lot in that game and he was getting fluster, but I think he bounced back really well in that game, and that's something they could build off. That wasn't the same Lamar that we saw really get frustrated in previous playoff games. I think he showed his maturity in that game too as well. I think that's fair. I just think that we're going to keep having this conversation if he keeps playing worse in the playoffs and he does in regular season. And that's the, the problem is the standard in the regular season was so high this year that those two mistakes are enough to

make it the worst game of his season. And so until that gap gets totally closed, and we see Alamara, that's the version we see in the regular, that's what clutch means. It's not playing better in the playoffs. It's playing as well as you did in the regular season. And until he's able to do that, we're going to keep doing this. And I think it's a fair criticism, but I agree with you and that I do think that there have been the right sort of strides year in and year out. And that's why it's tempting to just say if they stay the course it'll happen if they stay the course it'll happen but i know that's going to drive raven's face insane yeah it is i mean look they probably need something at every position like like most teams but there's some positions where they don't need a

whole lot it's more fine tinkering so it's a big off season for them i mean um i think what would what will really help which was an underrated or understated factor last year was losing so many defensive coaches You know, it was such a brain drain from that building last year. And, you know, to lose Weaver and McDonald's and Dinard Wilson, I thought, was a huge loss. Because that secondary was just disorganized in a mess. And there's a reason they got rid of both their DBAC's coaches and brought in Chuck Pagano this offseason to kind of settle things down. I think it'll help. You know, I don't think they're, you know, they started training camp kind of digging themselves out of this hole because all the new people and new positions.

I think you'll start kind of more where you left off last year, and there won't be that big adjustment that we saw because, look, they lost the Raiders in week two. I mean, they were not that good of a team for the first half of the season, and a lot of that was their defense was just terrible. Jeffsler-Rebeck, sincerely appreciate the time. We did this for longer than I was planning to because I'm just fascinated by this entire situation. Always appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you.

We will do it again very soon. Awesome, Ron. Great talking about. Thank you. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Dan. Thank you so much to Jeff. Really enjoyed those conversations. We will be coming to you with a combine recap on Monday.

Just a quick heads up. It will not be up first thing in the morning. So if it's 9 a.m. Eastern on Monday and you're looking for a show, it's not going to be there. We're recording it first thing Monday morning. Hopefully it's going to be your way and in your feeds by about noon or so. So just a quick programming heads up. We're going to do that with Dane and just talk about his week,

which is I saw him last night. It was just a fascinating time. for this man. He's absolutely crushing it. I assume he's going to be exhausted, but we're going to make him do it anyway. So please come check that out on Monday. We're going to be talking about everything that mattered from the draft side of things at the NFL Combine. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. Enjoy your weekend. We will talk to you very soon.