The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Big contract news, defining success for first-year head coaches with Lindsay Jones & processing the Panthers with Joe Person

Episode Date: August 10, 2021

What affect do the Josh Allen, Darius Leonard and Xavien Howard contracts have on the rest of the league? How do we define success for first-year head coaches like Urban Meyer, Dan Campbell, Arthur Smith, Brandon Staley, Nick Sirianni, and Robert Saleh? Lindsay Jones and Robert Mays discuss, plus Robert welcomes Joe Person, Panthers beat writer from The Athletic to dive into Sam Darnold and what we could see out of Carolina in 2021. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend, Lindsay Jones. How you doing? I'm good, Robert. I'm back from my first set of training camp travels.

I know you are still in the thick of it, but I'm back from Florida and kind of digesting everything that I saw and learned over six days with the bucks, dolphins, and jags. So we're going to get to one of those teams. We already talked about the dolphins on last week's show. I want to talk about the Jaguars with you as part of the show we're going to do today. What we're going to do today is look at the first year head coaches. And it can be tough to talk about sometimes because we don't know what to expect all the time.

We don't know. There's really nothing to go off of. It's all predictions with these teams. So that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to talk about what success looks like for this set of first year coaches. So we're going to get to Urban Meyer and all the guys stepping into the first year with their team. We're also going to talk to Panthers writer Joe Person a little bit later on the show. I met with Joe.

That was my last camp trip. I went on before going to Nate's wedding this weekend in Las Vegas. So our visit with Joe is going to be coming to you later in the show. Before we do any of that, though, I wanted to hit some of the news because over the weekend, as is want to do during training camp, a lot of stuff happened. And I think the biggest bit of news that came down over the last several days was the Josh Allen extension, the monstrous Josh Allen extension, $250 plus million. It's a six-year extension. When you saw the numbers, what was your initial reaction, Lindsay?

Yeah, I mean, it seems like real money. Yeah, it's not too bad, right? It's a good day to be Josh Allen. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I guess it's a good day to be the bills. I mean, this is something that Brandon Bean has been planning for for a long time. Our bills writer Matthew Fairburn wrote a really interesting story. He had some time with Brandon Bean after the contract was done.

Excellent. If you have not gone and checked it out yet, It's a really cool look at some of the processes and how this stuff works. But Matt does a great job covering the bills. I've said it multiple times. You guys should go read that if you are interested in anything about this. And I thought the most interesting nugget in there was that this is a contract that Brandon Bean has been preparing for since the draft in 2018.

This was something that he knew was coming. He believed that much in Josh Allen at draft day, even when a lot of other people didn't. He believed in it that it was going to come even after a really rocky year. And they've been making a lot of their financial plans setting up for this type of contract. And, you know, I guess what's, you know, what's interesting about it is this is the first big contract for that group of quarterbacks. And, you know, we've been watched, okay, when is Lamar Jackson's deal going to get done? What's that going to look like?

What's a bigger Mayfield deal going to look like? And it always felt like the Josh Allen deal would be bigger and probably longer than those guys just because of what he's already accomplished and kind of what Buffalo is really building with him. You know, Lamar has won an MVP, but he's been kind of up and down. And I think he's just a little bit of... The trajectory looks different for each guy. Yeah, exactly. The curve for Josh Allen is up. That's all, that's the only direction it goes. The curve for Lamar Jackson goes up and then down. The curve for Baker may feel it's like a roundabout. I mean, it's good, good luck to keep a track of that thing. So I think that definitely plays into some of the thinking. Yeah. And this is the

first one, you know, first of kind of this generation of quarterback deals where we can actually compare it to the Patrick Mahomes deal. Some of the other ones that have happened since, like the Dak Prescott deal, not really comparable based on structure. But this is the first one where it's long, like the Patrick Mahomes. It's not quite as long as the Mahomes deal. But this is six years on top of the two that he already had remaining. So, you know, this is a really long contract. So you look at, you know, what's the real money? How much of this is he actually going to make? How much of, you know, at what point would he, you know, be eligible for a new deal? But, you know, this looks like it's a lot of real money. It's a lot of real guarantees. And it's not quite as team friendly as the Mahomes,

you know, the Holmes deal was. And look, you know, I think Patrick Mahomes will end up restructuring at some point. I mean, I think that's very realistic that, you know, five years down the line, he's not going to be playing out the terms of the 10-year deal that he signed a little over a year ago. But this is a really good deal, I think, for Josh Allen, you know, for a guy who has had a nice upward trajectory, but not year after year after year of greatness. They're just really banking on that what we saw out of him in 2020 is just the start. So one other thing that Brandon B had said to Matt Fairbren that I thought was really interesting is he was talking about how CAA is not going to do certain types of deals because they're not going to establish precedent. When you're dealing

with a huge company like that, where Patrick Collins is the main agent for Josh Allen, but they have a team there. That's always how it's going to work. That's not how Patrick Mahomes' deal is, right? He works with Lee Steinberg. It's a much smaller shop than something like CAA is going to be. So they probably didn't want to sign this massive long deal in the mold of the Mahomes deal. But when that's already out there, it becomes this thing that hangs over those conversations. So I find those dynamics really interesting. But if you look at the number, it's $43 million on average as part of that six-year extension. That's the reason that I assume Baker-Mayfield's camp and Lamar Jackson's camp are in no rush to sign their extensions because Baker Mayfield's

not going to sit there and take $35 million a year when Josh Allen just got 43. I mean, that's the tenor of the conversations around quarterbacks. Most of these guys are going to get paid. It's worth waiting because you usually have pretty real leverage. And seeing that number has to make those guys that represent Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson pretty excited, I would assume. Even if it doesn't get up to this level, I think it's a pretty. good precursor to what they're going to be asking for here relatively soon or already you're asking

for. Yeah, and we've seen other quarterbacks, you know, Dak Prescott most recently, you know, really decide to kind of bet on themselves and not rush to take the first offer or an offer that they believe is below their value and below potentially the market value. And if you're willing to do that, it can make you a ton of money as Dak Prescott. It took a while. It was a little risky and there was a big injury in the middle, but Dak Prescott ultimately got there. So it's going to be really, really, really interesting to watch where this next generation of deals go. And also what we're going to learn about what the Browns truly feel about Baker and what the Ravens are comfortable doing long-term for Lamar Jackson as well. So you look at the numbers with the Allen deal. I think the structure is

really interesting. He's a $10.2 million cap at next year. It goes to $16.4 million in 2022. His fifth year option was going to be $22 million in 2022. So he's actually slated to make less money next season against the cap than he would have been on his 50-year option. That's not an accident, right? That is the timeline on which the cap is probably going to rebound. So in 2023, that cap it goes to $39.8 million. And that's when you start seeing those really big numbers. So then let's see.

Like they're big numbers, but they're not insanely big numbers. They're not insanely big numbers, but they also, they're big compared to what he was making, right? I mean, that's the thing that we're really looking at here. And so when you look at, number in 2020 when it takes that huge jump. Tremaine Medmins is set to be a free agent that year. Jordan Poyer is set to be a free agent that year. Mitch Morse, Cole Beasley, Mario Addison.

Jerry Hughes is set to be a free agent next season. So I think the names, especially in that 2023 class, Morse, Beasley, Addison. That's how this team was built. The Bills did such a great job and a rare job of building the supporting cast during Allen's development through free agency. When that number goes up, that's not going to be available to them anymore. They're going to need to build some of these cheaper in-house deals that they didn't have to build with the first time around. They're going to need guys like Greg Rousseau and Boogie Basham and the Gabe Davis's of the world to really hit in order to sustain their success.

And that's going to be the huge question. Is Josh Allen, that's the question with any quarterback extension. When you pay that guy, is he, as that version of himself, is he enough to make up for the corners you have to cut elsewhere on the roster? And the bills are betting that he is. And he very well might be based on what we saw last year. But that is the challenge that the bills are going to have to walk into here starting in 2023. Yeah, I mean, Patrick Mahomes got his deal after an MVP and a Super Bowl. Josh Allen has gotten his after an AFC championship game. But, you know, it's hard to criticize

a lot of decisions that the bills have made roster building wise and really on the field over the last couple years, they're clearly building this in the right way. So credit to Brandon Bean for getting this done. They didn't want it to drag out. And they got it done before the first set of preseason games. And now they have their biggest question, their biggest off-field question, other than vaccination status. Their biggest off-field question is answered now. And they don't have to worry about it. And they don't have to deal with that. And while a couple of these other teams are going to keep having to answer those questions. So let's get to another contract extension here. Darius Leonard signs a five-year $99 million deal to become the highest paid linebacker in the NFL.

This was going to happen. We knew this string of deals was going to go down for the Colts. Braden Smith was earlier in camp. Darius Leonard gets his deal. Quentin Nelson will be next. We've had some version of this conversation a couple different times over the last couple months. This is the Colts now. I mean, that 2018 draft that was this transformative group for them, all these cheap players that they could build around for a couple years, they're not cheap anymore.

Darius Leonard has an $11 million cap at next year, and it goes up to $20 million in $20.23, kind of a similar deal. Typically, the Colts pay as you go, but they're tweaking the structure right now a little bit, I would assume, because they're expecting a jump in the cap in a couple of years. But if you look at it, I thought Zach Kiefer did a really interesting job of framing this. He put together, ours owns that keeper from the athletic. He put together a list of the Colts under contract through at least 2023. Here are the names.

Darius Leonard, Braden Smith, Ryan Kelly, Carson Wentz, Grover Stewart, Kenny Moore, Jonathan Taylor, Michael Pittman, Julian Blackman, Quitty Pay. And Quentin Nelson will be on there as well. That group is the Chris Ballard group. This is the Chris Ballard Frank Reich team. It is established, it is crystallized, and now there are elements of it that are getting expensive.

The retooling, the reshuffling, the remaking of that roster is entirely complete and is kind of stepped into a new stage. and now we're going to see how it's going to go. Because these are the players that this regime picked and committed to, and now those guys are making sticker price sort of money. Yeah, they're financially in it. I mean, and what's scary is, I mean, it's hard to argue that Darius Leonard doesn't deserve that sort of money

after the player that he's been. And Quentin Nelson will be the richest guard in the league when it's all, and this is over. But are they in that next level of teams? Like, of guys who their nucleus is, are they good enough to compete now with the bills or with the chiefs? And the question with the bills is, are they any closer to competing with the chiefs? And so that's my question about the Colts is like, they have to do this. They have to invest in

this core. These are the guys that they picked. These are guys that want to build around. But now they're committed financially. And are they at that point where they can afford to commit to all of these guys the way that they have? And it all comes out to the quarterback. That's And that's the thing. And now we're in this holding pattern, right? To figure that out before he gets back and he's healthy. DeForest Buckner is also on that list, by the way. But again, somebody that they traded for and committed to.

I mean, these are the swings that they've made. Yeah, I mean, you send a first round draft pick to get DeForce Buckner. That was like, that was a massive commitment. And, you know, a guy that you were investing in in capital and in finances. But, you know, they're going to have a really good defense. They're going to have a really strong offensive line. And now we just have to figure out the other piece. I mean, they still have a decent amount of cap space next year, even after some of these extensions have been handed out.

I think they have something $70 million in room. And now it'll be a little bit less with the Leonard signing and with the Brayden Smith signing. Quentin Nelson, I don't think we'll make more next year on his deal than he's already making. I think his fifth year option is something like $13 million. If anything, that number will go down. So they'll still have some wiggle room. And if Carson Wentz has a good year and they want to commit to him, theoretically, they could still make a push next season and try to add a couple more pieces around.

on that core, but this core is the core. I mean, this group is what they're riding with here over the next couple years. I mean, we're not in this feeling out mode, getting excited and optimistic about all these young players that the cults have collected over the early years of the Bauer-Rike regime. Like, that's done. That stage of this team is done. And now we have the question about what comes next. Last one very quickly, Xavier Howard gets a few concessions from the dolphins, a little bit, a few more guarantees.

some incentives this year. I think it's a million dollars to make the Pro Bowl. A couple of things here and there. It makes sense. I think for both parties, I mean, the way the dolphins play, their style of play, how much they rely on a guy like him.

I think he's more valuable to Miami than he would be to another team right now. And I think he's more valuable to Miami than the second round pick they would have gotten from someone else. They need their defense to be great. They have built that defense around guys like this. And the money they threw at him,

I don't think puts them in a bad position. So I think this is a mutually beneficial understanding that they've come to. Yeah, absolutely. And a couple days ago, Brian Flores was very adamant that they were not interested in trading him and they weren't going to trade him. And of course they weren't. They weren't the ones who were ever exploring a trade for him. Zavian Howard was unhappy and he was asking to be traded. And the dolphins had all the power in that position.

He had four years left on his deal. they knew they weren't going to, you know, trade for him right, you know, pull off a trade right now or they would get less for him than they could have gotten at other points in the year. So, you know, this was really a move that said, okay, we're committed to you. We understand why you're unhappy. We can build in some, you know, some likely to be earned incentives, things like you said, making the Pro Bowl. I mean, those things make sense. And he deserves to be the highest paid cornerback on their team. And yes, they're invested a ton in their secondary between Byron Jones and Zavine Howard. but that's how they play and they've got a quarterback on a rookie deal. So you can afford to make a couple of these moves to make one of your best players happy. And now that's gone. You know, you and I were both there last week. And it was this like super awkward situation where, you know, he was around, but he wasn't practicing. He had this kind of like mysterious nagging injury and the fans were channing for him.

But he wasn't. It was just very awkward. And it was kind of this like one dark cloud hanging over what should otherwise be a really positive camp going on there in Miami, and now that's gone. And they can really work on figuring out exactly what this defense is going to look like. And they just have that messiness behind them for now. Yeah. And I think that again, I think that's exactly right.

Now they can move forward. And there's a lot of things to be excited about. I mean, the conversations I've had over the last week or so, I've had a couple to a specific conversations with people on top of being there. I think that there's reason for optimism. I mean, the way that he's looked and some of the specifics about, what their offense looked like last season and what it might look like now. I mean, this is nice that they're past this because now they can just solely be excited about what should

be a pivotal year for them and a pivotal year that's worth looking forward to. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we talked about this last week on the podcast where there's, it's really easy to make the case for the dolphins. And one of the things that the reason it could go wrong is if the Zavian Howard thing didn't get figured out. And they figured out now we're not even to the first preseason game. he's going to be back and practicing. His ankle feels better. Is that amazing? Weird how that happens.

So he's back practicing. And yeah, they can move forward. And now I'm really excited to see what they're actually going to look like when they have their full roster together. All right. Let's get to these first year head coaches. So the question I want to ask about all these guys is a fairly simple one with some

complicated answers, I would assume. What does success look like? And I think it's different for all of them. And I think that's why it's worth examining. Let's stick in Florida and let's talk about a team that you recently visited with the Jags. Just first things first, your initial impressions from your couple of days at Jaguars camp. I'm curious what you thought when you were there. Sure.

So, you know, I will preface this by saying, so I covered the University of Florida during the Urban Meyer era. Jesus, I totally forgot about that. Yeah, this was a long time ago. I'm pretty old. So, yeah, I was in Gainesville, 2007, 2008. So I've covered Urban Meyer football practices before. And they were no joke. I mean, these were, you know, his favorite things were the circle of life where, you know,

you basically just get two guys in there and kill each other. And the first seat from the Friday Night Lights pilot. Yeah. I mean, so he, he ran that stuff, you know, and it was, you know, so I've, I've been around urban a decent amount. I left to go start covering the Denver Broncos in 2008. So I left before they won their second national championship there. But I was there during the Tim Tebow Heisman year.

I was there for a couple of spring. and spring football back in those days, you got to watch everything. It was great, you know. And so I've been around Urban, but it's been a long time. You know, it had been, shoot,

since spring of 2008 since I'd watched an Urban Meyer football practice and so much of, you know, kind of what Urban did in the program that he ran and kind of the staples of an Urban Meyer style football practice are things you cannot do in the NFL. And he learned that this spring. The Jogs were one of the teams that were fined during OTAs

for contact. rules breaking you know breaking parts breaking rules of the CBA of the amount of work that they were doing in the offseason but so of course so i get there you were there also last week and you and i have not gotten to rehash all of this but so i got there on wednesday and walked in and over a microphone over a loudspeaker and this is a practice that is closed to fans that day there were there was like one youth football team that was there and that was it but there was the director of i guess i was going to call him the director of football operations. But it's the chief of staff, Urban Myers chief of staff, was on a microphone, basically broadcasting the practice over the practice fields and announced

that it was winner and losers day. And I was like, wait, are like, are we on college campus? Like, winner and loser day. And Andy Staples, one of our college football writers, who's also been dabbling in Jaguar's coverage was there. And he was like, oh, yes, this is a big part of Urban's thing. But it was the first winners and losers day of this training camp. So every rep of individual drills and of position drills. So, you know, offensive linemen versus defensive linemen, you know, pass rush drills, the corners versus wide receivers, safeties versus tight ends. But then also some sets of just like receiver on receiver, we had some, you know, linebacker drills. They were calling out who won each rep. So it would be like winner shark, winner Tebow, winner Allen over and over and over for the entire

practice. It was wild. I've never seen that in an NFL field before. And most of these players hadn't seen that before. I mean, there are some guys who, you know, came out of Ohio State, you know, Luke Farrell, one of their tight ends, very familiar for him. He's probably been hearing winners and loser day forever. But it was very different from any NFL practice that I had ever been to. So even the PA was different for me. I've never heard a PA announcer talk. Like session, like this is section 17 of practice. You have 10 seconds to get to the next drill. Like that is apparently a college thing that they do because there's so many guys.

And so you have to project it over a speaker in order for everyone to hear it. That was new. There were just aspects of it logistically that I wasn't used to seeing. An assistant coach gave a speech before practice started, like a really raw, raw speech, like right after they stretched before they went out and practiced. Yeah. The day I was there, Urban gave the speech. And it was like seven or eight minutes long.

I've never seen that before. We were looking around like, this is still going. Like, I can't believe. And it was, he was worked up. He was sweating. He was like wiping his face with the towel. And what's interesting about that beat, too, a couple of the guys who cover the Jaguars also used to cover Florida. So there's a lot of Urban Meyer institutional knowledge.

And not just, you know, from having been around, but from like intimately covering that program. So it's a really interesting dynamic there. And it's going to be the biggest or, or what? one of the biggest storylines in the NFL, but certainly the biggest storyline in Jacksonville is just how he meshes all of this stuff, how Urban is bringing so many of the parts of what's intrinsically him, the things that he's always done and trying to make them fit into the NFL. And he's surrounded himself with largely veteran NFL coaches. I know you talk to Darrell Bevel, Brian Schottenheimer's, their passing game coordinator there. They have all of these kind of veteran NFL coaches that he's trying to lean on. Okay, this is how the NFL works and this is what NFL players are going to want to do. I think that says a lot about him, by the way. I mean, I think that that is, I'm impressed with that choice because I think it would have been easy for him to have guys that he could keep his thumb on as coordinators and not

doing that and going to get guys like Joe Colin and Joe Byvill. I don't know if it'll work. I have no idea if it'll work. But I think it's easy for a guy with Urban Meyer's background to say, I'm going to have a, I'm going to bring a college coordinator that I can have my hand on the whole time and is going and do what I say rather than somebody who's done this before. I think that bodes well for them. There are aspects of it that I'm a little bit worried about.

That one I think is a step in the right direction. Yeah. And I think so I do to his credit, I think he maybe has learned some things. He had obviously some missteps along the way. I think he's realizing that there were things that he was able to get away with and he was running a college program that aren't going to fly in the NFL. My big question is at what point are these kind of college style motivational tactics and practices. How long will that go over in the NFL with professional athletes where these are guys

jobs. This is their livelihood. You know, these are adult men with families. And I don't know. Right now, this is clearly a team who needs a complete reset, who needs, you know, the words culture change get thrown around a lot. And I'm sure we're going to use it throughout the rest of this podcast as we're talking about some of these other new head coaches. But clearly this is a franchise that was in need of that. So right now, they're okay. with it. It's only been a week into practice, right? That they're like, okay, winner's a loser's day. That's, that's fun. We've never done this before. But if it's, you know, two or three weeks, if he's pulling this in October and they're, you know,

one and four, I don't know. I don't know how that'll go over. I mean, I, I get, I guess one example that I could compare it to is I covered the Josh McDaniels era Broncos. And this was a different CBA. So they were allowed to do a lot more contact and padded practices then. but he worked them overworked those players to the point where they were going full pads multiple days a week in November and December and the players hated it. And they got to the point that they hated him pretty quickly because of, you know, he just was kind of out of touch with what NFL players wanted and needed and how they deserve to be treated.

And, you know, we'll see. I don't know. Maybe Urban will connect with these guys. Maybe they'll love it. maybe they'll be on a faster trajectory than any of us are expecting. But I guess when we're just like defining success, like I just want to see if it works, I think for him. And if it, you know, is not full of drama.

And if it's, you know, he's starting to put together like a legit NFL team. And it's going to be hard. But they've got some nice pieces. I did come away that day thinking like, okay, their offensive line might be decent. The offense has like real guys on it. That was definitely one of my takeaways. I talked to Marvin Jones when I was there and to hear him kind of be excited about the group that they had

because he ran that offense last year. I think that was one of the reasons that he signed in Jacksonville because he was in that system with Darrell Bevel. He could walk in a year where there wasn't much free agent money getting thrown around, become an instant contributor there with the number one overall pick in the draft and maybe repump his value up and get an actual decent contract another free agent one maybe next season.

But talking to him, he's like, we can run the ball. all we can do so many things with this group like they are excited about the skill position players they have there and the infrastructure they already have on offense which to me that is the big marker of success for them it is can they be a real offense from day one and as Trevor Lawrence look like a real quarterback from day one because that's what they've done I want them to stop with this like charade of like is Trevor Lawrence going to be our starter that's the other part of this like college weirdness where he's just trying to be a hard ass it the aspects of that that jump out, it's so jarring when you go to some of these practices and just feel the different

vibe at the places, right? Like, I was at the Rams today, and everyone's having a good time, but it's loose. You know, like, there's, they talk to those guys, like, adults, like, they're just, like, that's been the vibe the entire time that McVeigh has been there. It's just, there's no yelling. I mean, when you go to that Jaguars practice, and I was watching the defensive lineman workout, and their defensive line coach is actually an NFL guy who's been around at a couple different stops. But there are like three or four coaches around the sled and just people like

screaming as the drill was going on. She's like, you just don't see that in some places. Maybe it'll work. But it's really stark how different it is at a place like that. And like I go to Chargers practice yesterday and Brandon Staley's just like talking to Derwin James and his wife, you know, just like it's very, very chill. And it's, you know, maybe it'll be a good thing. But it definitely is a different approach than what you see at a lot of NFL. shops right now. I mean, one of the problems the Jags have had is that they've been ping ponging for years between styles where Gus Bradley, Lucy Goosey, players coach, you know, the players really run the show and then all of a sudden you fire him, you bring in Tom Coughlin and it's like a

Coughlin regime and everybody's a hard ass and everybody's miserable. And then, you know, and then it kind of, you know, Doug Marone stayed, but Coughlin's gone. But now you have to bring in kind of a new hard ass and as, you know, college style. So it's, you know, and then it's kind of. It's going to be interesting. But yeah, I'm curious about their offense. I think their defense might take a while to get on that sort of level. And I think they're going to struggle at times. Their secondary is really unsettled right now.

The C.J. Henderson situation, you know, very recent first round draft pick has not been practicing is rumored to be on the trade block right now. So, I mean, they're very unsettled, I think, on the defense side of the ball. But look, if their offense can look. like you said, like a legit NFL offense. I guess that's all we really can hope for this year. I totally agree. I think the defense is going to take a while to come around.

To me, it'd be like Carolina's defense last year, where all I want to see is effort and some semblance of competence, and you'll figure it out. Like with the Panthers, we're going to talk to Joe Person about this little later in the show. And I had conversations there with some people about their timeline and building that team. They knew it wasn't going to be a one-year rebuild on defense.

I mean, they tore that thing down to the studs. And that's where the Jags were. I mean, there were outside of like Josh Allen and the guys they drafted last year, Chasen, and then who knows it's going to happen with C.J. Henderson. And they had Joe Schobert was their only big money guy. And they're rebuilding that entire thing. I mean, they went out and got Roy Robertson Harris in free agency. They signed Shaq. Griffin in free agency.

I mean, they spent a lot of money to try to rebuild that thing. And I don't know what it's going to look like at the end of the year, but I don't think it's going to be very good. This is all about Lawrence and all about what the offense looks like. If they can be a top, borderline, top 10 offense, and hover somewhere around like 7 and 10, whatever that is, I think that would be a success because at this point, Lawrence and him being a real dude is the most important thing.

Whether Urban Meyer is good or not. Trevor Lawrence is probably going to be there as long or longer than Urban Meyer is going to be there. He'll at least be in the NFL longer. Yes. So that's the hope. And that to me is the number one thing that will mark success for them. All right, speaking of Brandon Staley and the Chargers, let's get to this one.

I think these expectations are a tad bit different. What does success look like for you and Brandon Staley and the Chargers this year? I think it's playoffs. I mean, I think they have, you know, it's tough to say, I mean, almost any coach will always say our number one goal is to win the division. That's our first goal. Our goal is always to win the division. That's a really tall task in the AFC West.

So I think the goal for them or success is being a wildcard, team making the playoffs and being competitive and beating the chiefs, you know, at some point. You know, I think their roster is there. They've played them well historically. Justin Herbert's not scared of playing against Patrick Mahomes. So yeah, I mean, I think the expectations are high there and they should be high there and they should be high internally and they, you know, they're going to be high from folks like you and me. I think playoffs is the answer. I think if they can be a wildcard team, that is success. And I think that they can do it. There's a lot. lot to be excited about there. And I try to pump the brakes because I so naturally get excited about

that team for many reasons. I was saying this yesterday with Jeremy Fowler from ESPN was at practice and we were talking. And I said the Chargers just for the last 15 years have just kept me coming back because I was the biggest Phillip Rivers guy. And then Keenan Allen catches the touchdown past yesterday and he's making fun of me about it because how much I love Keenan Allen. And now I love Justin Herbert. It's like every single year that these guys are just going to hook me in. And obviously, I'm a supporter of the Brandon Staley regime and the things he has accomplished. So I'm excited about it.

And I think there's a good reason to be excited about it. I also think that this team is thin at certain positions. If they have an injury, Corey Lindsay left practice yesterday, and he eventually looked fine. He was walking around with his family afterwards on the field. Staley said it was precautionary, but that's one of those things. They lose him and Scott Cuisenberry is their center starting week one.

That's a big deal. Safety is the same deal. they do not have much depth at that spot. Their defensive line is a concern. I think they have enough defensive talent with Staley with that defensive staff to be a good defense right away. Maybe not the best defense in the league like the Chargers were or the Rams were last year, but like a top 12-ish unit. And I think offensively all the returns on Herbert are so good. And even the way Staley was talking about him yesterday, he's like, I just, he has implicit trust in what that guy can eventually become.

And then there was a play yesterday. They ran a little wheel. I don't know where he was lined up and it was annoying me because I caught the tail end of it because I was up in the press box and Austin Echler went ran a vertical route down the field

and Derwin James just stay with him step for step and pick the ball off and it's like oh yeah Darwin James is on this team and he is really good and they have a lot of skill position talent I think that they can be good right away we've said this before on this show

I think their band of outcomes is wider than a team like Cleveland or a team like the Bills because they're not as deep. If they lose one or two, if Joey Bosa gets hurt, this team is in big trouble. And I think there are a couple different spots

where that's true. And if they can stay healthy, which is the caveat that follows them every single year, they revamped everything about their sports performance department. They tore it all the way down and built it back up again.

That was purposeful. I think he is looking at every single aspect of this thing and trying to see where he can avoid putting that team in harm's way or hurting themselves unnecessarily. And I just think that is a mindset that that franchise has not always taken. So I think they're turning over every rock in a way that is going to be beneficial for them ultimately.

And I think what's helpful for them is that they're not a team that was in need of this culture change that we were talking about. No. They're a team that was in need of just something to elevation. Fresh ideas. You know, just some curse breaking also. So I don't know if Brandon Staley has those sorts of powers. And I know this is, you know, we're kind of talking about it in the context of the new head coaches.

But, you know, so much of this, too, I think is on the new offensive staff and what they're going to be able to get out of Herbert immediately. And, you know, if the Lombardi offense, you know, if we're bringing kind of this New Orleans style, the stuff that worked for Drew Brees and just how quickly it's going to work. But I'm in. I'm excited about them. You know, I have some AFC West biased on this podcast. So I'm just excited. And Chargers and Chiefs games twice a year, like nothing better. Sign me up.

I'm very excited. Just even to see what Staley and that staff is going to do against Patrick Mahomes. Even the guy Staley has on that staff. He has like coaching all stars, like all the way up and down in that group. Like I'm just so interested. Like Shane Day is their quarterback coach. He worked with Cal Shanahan for the last couple of years. They just,

Rinaldo Hill was in Denver with Vic Fangio and Jay Rogers was the defensive line coach for the Bears. they've pumped out so many good guys. I think that a lot of curious, excitable football people wanted to go work for Brandon Staley. And I think that they've assembled a really nice staff. When you talk about the Lombardi thing and what their offense looks like, I'm frustrated that we're not having this conversation tomorrow

because I'm going to talk to those guys and have a lot of those chats with people on the ground there tomorrow. So hopefully I will learn some interesting stuff. I will be able to put it back into this show here over the month or so before the season gets kicked. off. All right. Let's move on to another team that I have admittedly excited about and I've talked about

in this show, Robert Sala and the New York Jets. In your mind, what does success look like for the New York Jets in 2021? So I think they're kind of a longer build. And a lot of that's because of Zach Wilson. And, you know, you're coming in with a completely new coaching staff, rookie quarterback. So I think for the Jets, it's just like respectability and stability and stability and like showing that there's grownups in charge.

and that they know what they're doing and they're going to kind of be in this long rebuild for the long haul and they're going to do it the right way. And I don't know if there's a number of wins that you put on that. I think, you know, Connor Hughes or Beatwriter, I saw him on Twitter on Monday night saying he sees him like a five win team. And, you know, maybe that's fair, right? I mean, I think maybe it's in that range, which, you know, it's hard to say like, okay, going five and 12, am I doing my math, right?

It's very late. It's five and 12. Five and 12 and saying that's a success. But if it's five and 12 and there's signs of progress, you're not embarrassing yourself. You're not becoming, you know, memes and crazy back pages of the New York Post. You know, that's progress. And, you know, they're coming from a place where they've been a joke for a really long time. And, you know, if Robert Sale is the guy and can make them not a joke, that's a win. That's a success. I think it's a great way to put it. A respectability. is a really good word and I think they're already trending in that direction. I mean,

I was only there for a day and you don't want to read too much into it, but just the way he carries himself and everything I've ever heard about him is the reviews are awesome. I think that they have an interesting staff. I think Jeff Oldberg did a good job when he was with Atlanta over the last couple years when he was elevated to their defense corner. He was their linebackers coach. We'll see what Michael Flore can do in his first year. And I think that it's about, you know, we talk about how the Colts have their core and those are the guys that are committed to. I think the Jets have to figure out their core. I think for the Jets' success this year is to say, who are our building blocks? Over the next three years, who are the guys that we can move forward with? Joe Douglas has only had two

drafts. Yeah, because he came in after a draft. Yes. So he's only had two drafts. He had the 2020 draft and the 2021 draft. That's it. So the 2020 draft, it's kind of a weird, the timing of it is strange because especially when you're a new GM, picking the players is so informed by what the coaching staff wants. So to pick one for a lame duck staff is just kind of strange. Denzel Mims is the sixth receiver on the depth chart right now, which isn't surprising when you consider the timing, but it's still unfortunate because he was his second round pick last year. So now you're really sitting there hoping, all right, Beckton is Ashton Davis? He's going to be a starter for this team? It doesn't look like it. He was their third round

pick in 2020. So now you're looking at like Bechton, this year's draft class, and this year's free agent class. So you're really hoping just by the end of the year that Bechton looks like a superstar left tackle that all the guys they drafted in this class, most notably Zach Wilson, look like building blocks. And guys like Carl Lawson and Corey Davis are people that you can have and lean on for the next three years.

So if that respectability and looking competent and looking like a real NFL team and operating like one and going a week without some sort of memeified video hitting the internet and then having those young guys look like people that they can rely on for the next four or five years. I think that's what it looks like. I think you're right in not knowing what number to put on it. Part of me thinks the optimistic view is that they could go somewhere around 500 if some of those defensive pieces hit. If those dice rolls they took on Marcus Joyner and Jared Davis and Sheldon Rankins, all of those things kind of come together in the right way. And But I do think that that's a little bit of a rosy picture.

If they went 6 and 11, but they looked like a real team and they were playing hard and all that other stuff, I think you can construe that as success. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's fine. And I think if you're a Jets fan, I just wouldn't come into it with like AFC East champion sort of expectations. But for the first time in a while, this seems to be a team that's starting to be on an upward trajectory. So just that we're saying that, you know, five and six wins, I don't want people to think that means that we're not excited about the Jets or that we have, you know, it's low expectations in terms of wins, but high potential in terms of what they're going to ultimately be building towards. I think I totally agree with that. All right.

Let's get to another team that we also might have to pump the brakes about. And that's the Atlanta Falcons and Arthur Smith in his first year there. My feel after being there and after having conversations with a couple different people, people is that they're closer to kind of tearing this thing down and starting over than it might seem pretty much just because Matt Ryan is still there. Yeah, other than Matt Ryan and maybe Calvin Ridley and, you know, Dion Jones and Gray Jared, the big name guys, there aren't that many long-term building blocks on this team. Like, they went all in, they came up empty, and now Terry Fontno and Arthur Smith have to

pick up the pieces a little bit. I think similar to some of these other rebuilding teams we're talking about, which shouldn't be a surprise when you're talking about first year head coaches, they just got to find football players. Like if Kyle Pitts looks like a star and Ridley's going to be there for a few years and maybe they have AJ Terrell, is like, all right, so you start to put together this nucleus of young talent that you can eventually build with.

But I think that's where they are. This mindset that I had in January where I thought, maybe they can be really good on offense right away. I just, I've scaled that back a little bit. I've pulled back on that sort of excitement with this team for maybe right or wrong. That's how I've started to think about them. The hard part with the Falcons this entire offseason and through training camp has been, to me, has been kind of messaging and just trying to figure out who they are and the things

that they're actually saying and then what you can read into the moves that they're making and the decisions that they're making and who they want to be and who they think they are. So, you know, if we're talking about defining success, I mean, if they think that they have enough pieces that they can, you know, be competitive this year, I think it's being the second best team in the NFC South. I think that's success for them. I don't think anybody is going to be coming close to the Bucks in that division. But, you know, if you can win the most of the rest of your division games, you know, split with everybody else, maybe take a series from the Panthers. or take a series, you know, that's respectable, right? I mean, I think that's a potential, you know, a way that you could define kind of being successful.

You know, and then I think it's other things of just showing, you know, winning those close games, not having kind of the mental mistakes and some of the coaching, coaching mental mistakes that you saw too often from the previous regime. Yeah, so it's some of those things, I think. God, I'm looking at their 2022 cap. They can't even move on from any of these deals next. year. Yeah, it's tough.

It's just, it's a really, really difficult situation. And I think that second place in the NFC South makes a lot of sense because I do think that there's a little bit not avoid there because the same still have a lot of talent, but I think that spot is a little bit up for grabs. Like I feel like the Panthers would probably like to be that team this year if they could take a step forward and Darnold could look a lot better. So I think that's a reasonable goal because I do think they can be pretty good offensively right now.

I don't think there'll be an elite offense without who. Leo, but with Russell Gage as their second receiver, things like that. I mean, there are just so many question marks. And what does the offensive line look like? Are they committed to some of those guys that were high picks like Caleb McGarry or are those spots open for competition? I just, there's so much uncertainty with what this team looks like. And then you look at the defensive side of the ball.

And how many Falcons starters on defense can you name right now? Two. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's more than that. But, I mean, I think there's two that, like, most NFL fans would know. And maybe not even most NFL fans would know. But yeah, but I mean, Grady Jarrett and Dion Jones are two like,

like legit NFL players who would be starting just about anywhere in the league. But I think a lot of the rest of the guys are guys who might not be starters if they were on another team. Do you want to play a game at Atlanta Falcon starter or Bachelorette contestant and see how many we can get right? Tyler Davison. which is that is that a bachelor contestant?

I'm guessing for this purposes, it's probably a Falcons player, but, you know, toss out. I mean, Eric Harris is on this team. He's a starting safety. Jalen Hawkins. I mean, it is, it's a rough go. Yeah, I mean, Tori when I was there, Jacob, to a toy Mariners, who he was, she was asking Arthur Smith about it. I was like, I don't even know who that is. He was the guy who was like fighting for real time on their defense. And it's just that's where they're at. I mean, defensively, it is a real hodgepodge of dudes. And you just can't have high expectations. I think they're just hoping to get by. And it's with Matt Ryan there, it's so tempting to think, oh, this team has real expectations. They have real expectations.

But I think they had to renegotiate his deal simply to field an NFL roster this year. And the NFL roster still isn't very good. So I'm just trying to temper my expectations for that team because with Arthur Smith, with Matt Ryan, with Kyle Pitts, with Calvin Ridley, I think I can get a little over-excited. And I think that that's the wrong way to view what their expectations should be this year. All right. I ordered these essentially from, well, we started with Urban Meyer because you were just there. But then it kind of went from most promising to least promising.

So these are a little bit different here. I don't even know where to start with Nick Siriani and the Eagles. Like, what would you construe his success for the 2021 Eagles? I would say some clarity at quarterback. One way or the other? Yeah. Yeah. Because that's going to determine ultimately his long-term success is if he runs a successful offense.

And part of that is they need to figure out who their quarterback is going to be. If that's Jalen Hertz and if it's Jalen Hertz, what does an offense look like with Jalen Hertz? Can you put together some exciting elements with DeVontas Smith? You know, I just want to know. And I think Eagles fans probably really want to know kind of where that position and where that offense is going to go long term. You know, I don't think it's realistic to expect that they are going to compete in the NFC East. You know, maybe they're competing for the one of the top overall, you know, top three, a top five draft pick. But I just, yeah, I think I just want answers and just kind of to have a better sense of like who the Eagles are, not just now, but who they're going to be, you know, in 2020, 2022, 2023.

That's my question, is what does this team look like next year? I haven't spent a ton of time thinking about this team in part because I think 2021 is almost a wash. They have such an aging core and it's expensive. And do they just kind of bite the bullet with dead money next year when they can and hit the reset button hard and start this thing over? So if that's eventually going to be their future, to me the biggest thing is, is Devante Smith a star? Those are the questions. Where do you find the long-term pieces that are going to end up being there for a while? Because they just don't have any.

And that's the problem with this team. It's one of the many problems they've had over the last few years is that they just don't have many homegrown guys that they've hit on in the last three or four drafts. I mean, the idea that Andre Dillard was a miss. Derek Barnett is somebody that never developed into a star. I mean, all of these guys that they drafted for the most part, are not contributors for them. Like Jalen Rager had a disastrous rookie season last year.

So can they find pieces that are going to be a part of the plan for the immediate and eventual future? Like that to me is the biggest thing for them because I think that they are pretty close to a full-scale reset if they don't get their quarterback almost immediately. Like if they don't pull off a deal for one of those guys next spring, whether it's Deshaun Watson or somebody else, is the rest of the roster on a timeline

where you can wait for a rookie that you have to trade up for eventually. So this one's the hardest one for me to figure out because I just don't know what the answer is because I don't know what they're even trying to accomplish. Poor Eagles fans. It's weird. It's just a strange, strange time.

As an Eagles fan, I don't even know what I would be rooting for. That's to me the biggest question. I don't even know what I want to have that. Yeah, it's hard because there's big names there. And there's guys who have been beloved in Philly that were huge parts of the Super Bowl team just a few years ago. And like, they're still on that team. That was four years ago, though.

That was four years ago. So, I mean, these guys are all in their 30s now. Yeah. I mean, like, a lot of the names are like, oh, yeah, that guy and that guy and that guy. But those guys are all older now. That's your Cox. And I mean, I want good things for those guys. Like, I just, I just want like the world for Jason Kelsey.

But, like, I feel bad that they're going to have to be part of. whatever this is and this which should be a rebuilding process. And they're kind of not really acknowledging that it's a rebuilding process, but it's weird. I just don't think they could this year. I don't think there's any way they could have rebuilt this season. Look at these deals. So on top of the dead money that they're eating for Carson Wentz, right? The dead money numbers for those veterans that you talked about this year would be $22 million for Fletcher Cox.

I mean, Lane Johnson is $46 million. I think that's not even almost a consideration. 34 million for Brandon Graham, 22 million for Brandon Brooks. I mean, these are all deals that they're locked into. I mean, they had to have this roster this year. Next year, do they have to have this roster? How much of this do they want to turn over?

These are questions I don't know the answers to. So, again, it's hard to know where they're going because it's hard to know where they want to go. The Lions, I think we have a little bit more clarity. I think this one is easy for me. If the 2021 lions have the 2019 Dolphins season, that is a success, where you're purposely tearing it down. They went out, their wide receiver depth chart is all you need to know,

but what this team is trying to do here. The golf thing was weird, and I just don't know how that aligns with their vision. We asked Brad Holmes about it on this show, and they just, I think they thought he was a guy that could kind of keep it on the tracks, but that I don't, I've never really understood. But I think if you have some young pieces that are playing hard and you have just an organization moving in concert in the right direction with enthusiasm,

that to me is success. I know that bar is very low, but I think that we should have the bar be very low for this team. And that's fair. I think all of that stuff is right. And you said the word enthusiasm. I think there's going to be plenty of that to go around. for now.

This is a team where you kind of want the fun viral moments, you know, where I think they, yes, yes. They knew who Dan Campbell was when they hired him. So they need to like let him be his weirdo self and capitalize on those moments and trying to make him a star or whatever. And, you know, a team that people are talking about and buzzing about and looking forward to in the future because, yeah, they're not going to be very good this year. And I don't think there's a lot of lenses through which you can look and say like,

You know, you'd have to swim really, really, really hard to say like, oh, you know, maybe their offense will be, you know, their offensive line could be really good. And look, they have some good dudes on the offensive line. But I just think as a whole, you know, this is really a long-term process. And if they're committed to that, then that's great. And we just haven't seen the lines kind of thoroughly committed to one plan in a while. And yeah, that's success. I mean, is it two wins, three wins, four wins?

How many games do that 2019 Dolphins team win? I think they ended up winning five games. They won a couple that they shouldn't have and still ended up kind of like lucking in Tatua because of the injury. They went five and four down the stretch. They were 0 and 7 to start the year and then they went five and four down the stretch.

And I think, I mean, their strategy that year, they went out and signed Ryan Fitzpatrick and so you have these kind of stabilizing veterans that you try to bring on as a way to shepherd the young roster that you have. and they didn't really do it as much with a quarterback. I guess Jared Goff is kind of that, but Jared Goff costs $30 million,

and Ryan Fitzpatrick costs five, so it's a little bit different. But you look at a guy like Michael Brockers. That's exactly what they tried to do on the defensive side of the ball. It's like, all right, here is a veteran that we know that plays hard and does this the right way.

Let's drop him into this locker room with, literally in the defensive line room, they drafted two guys in the first three rounds, and try to create this feeling around the building of what we want to be by having that influence around some of these young guys. I mean, it's right there. Like, it's plain to see what they were trying to do. And that, to me, is what success would look like, is that taking hold and them saying,

we are building something here, even if it's coming slowly. When they get to next season, then they can really kind of purge all of the Patricia from this thing with the roster and just really, really move on to the next step. Do they feel good about the young pieces that they have, the move? in that building and where they're headed. Again, those are modest, modest goals, but I think that's exactly where the lion should be right now. So if you're a Lions fan, what should you be, like, watching for?

And, like, how do you sell this? And it's tough because you can't, the team can't come out during training camp and say, like, yeah, we're really looking for 20, 23 here and really just hoping that in two or three years, these guys are going to be good. So if you're a Lions fan, how do you, you know, because poor Lions fans. I mean, nobody's had it worse than them. How do you kind of sell this to them? The line looks great.

Like, we have a top whatever offensive line. Like, that's where we started. We felt like that was the group that was complete before this season got going. We run the ball well. DeAndre Swift is a real player. And that's somebody that you can get excited about. I think on the defensive side, it's some of these pieces that are young and that we've committed to our actual players.

Does Jeff Okuda look really good in his second season? Does he look like a different player? There's actually been buzz about him. There has been positive buzz about him. And that is the type of stuff. It's like he got skunked by Matt Patricia and they were giving him a tomato soup bath during training camp. And that is all they need. Do those young defensive tackles look good?

I mean, that's really it. Again, these are small, small steps. But that's how we talked about the 2019 dolphins, right? I mean, we had no expectations for that team. Zero. And I think even though Dan Campbell is, we hear from him every single. day and they're much more out in front and front and center than that Dolphins team was, I think it's a similar sort of situation. And I think we should have a similar bar for what

this team is trying to clear. And I will say by one other expectation or like what would be successful, I don't want Jared Goff to like be a flop. I think like he's been through some shit this off season and people have like crapped all over him. So like I don't want him to be terrible. Like I wouldn't have a little redemption for Jared Garland. I hope he plays pretty well. I mean, just for Jared Goff's sake, I hope that their offense is fine. I hope it's not like the worst offense in the league. But you look at, well, no, there's going to be at a worst offense in the league. We'll get there.

Oh, we certainly will. All right, let's get to this one here. I don't even know what to say about David Coley and the Texans. I mean, that man has been put in a zero win situation. Yeah. I mean, maybe literally a zero win situation. Yeah. Okay.

So we're talking success for the Texans. I don't even know where to start. I like, I absolutely do not know where to start. I absolutely do not know where to start. Yeah, because so much of it is tied to Deshaun Watson, which it requires so much nuance, and we just, none of us know how this is all going to play out. So there's a lot of different scenarios. Is it a scenario that Deshaun Watson is on the commissioner exempt list all year?

So he's basically on a paid suspension. So he's a non-entity to the 2021 Texans. So then if that's the case, then there's some sort of, you know, bar that we would judge the team. So yeah, I mean, I think there's just a lot of different ways that you have to look at the Texans. So then there's the Texans that, okay, Deshaun Watson plays. And like, he's been back at practice all of a sudden. And, you know, David Cully is talking about, you know, we expect that he could play at some point this year.

And then the expectations totally change. And I don't know. I mean, their roster is bad. It's, I don't even know what to say about it. I don't even know where you start. I mean, it's such a weird collection of players. I mean, Justin Britt and Marcus Cannon are on this offensive line.

Like, now they have Anthony Miller on this team. They trade it up for Nico Collins. I mean, it's, I have no idea. Mark Ingram and Philip Lindsay, it's like, it's a really interesting, weird. And Rex Burkhead, I mean, the defense is just bizarre. I mean, after I told, like, Shaq Lawson is on this team. I don't even know where to start. I know that that is a disappointing answer,

but Christian Kirksey is on this team, Terrence Mitchell. They have guys that were mildly exciting for like 10 minutes on one team and then ultimately never worked out. All of those guys are on the Texans now. Every single one of those guys. It's just made up of NFL players that you've heard their names in passing three or four times. Like, that is exactly what this roster is. They're all the guys that when you would go to a game, you'd walk through a stadium,

you'd be like, oh, somebody bought that jersey. Like, huh? Oh, Christian Kirksey, Jersey, huh? Okay. Well, Philip Lindsay Jersey is an exception because in Denver, literally everybody owns one. Desmond King is on this team as well. He's exactly that. That's exactly what Desmond King is.

I just, I don't know. So, okay, so here's, if you're a Texans fan, what do you want? What would be success? Is it getting the number one? Clarity. Clarity. I mean, just clarity about what's next. That's it.

I would want to either know if they're trading him or if they have the number one pick or just, I don't even know what it would be like to root for this team right now. I genuinely don't. That's not even a joke. I genuinely don't know what it would be like. There's so many complicating factors.

It's been such a strange year. I mean, in every single way imaginable. I really don't know. I honestly don't. So for David, Cully. It might be just getting out of there. I think it's getting to the end of the year and keeping your job.

I mean, it's can you do a decent job? Do guys play for you? I mean, really, really simple stuff. Yes. I mean, that's really it because this team doesn't even have any young players that you want to see develop because they didn't have any fucking draftics.

I mean, it's so, so weird. Every other barometer for success. or progress that you would pin to another team doesn't even apply to this team. It's one of the stranger situations I've ever had to think about when I've covered this league full time. It's unprecedented stuff.

Yeah, and it's complicated for a lot of reason. And it's, if we were just strictly talking about the roster, like even if we were talking about this roster plus a Deshaun Watson without any legal challenges, that are going on right now, they'd still probably be the worst team. I mean, we might be doing a toss-up with the lions for kind of who's going to be at that bottom spot, but they were still going to be bad. I mean, they were bad last year with Deshaun Watson.

So it's going to be really, really rough. And we probably should, like, open up the rest of the fandoms to, like, accept wayward Texans fans because they have every right to bail. And if you're going to stick around through this, then maybe. You're a diehard. Listen, Texans fans, I know you've been watching the Justin Fields highlights on Twitter the same way that I have. The water is warm. That's a joke.

I would never wish Bears fandom on anyone because even I am like tepidly excited about this. I watch every single one. I get really excited for a second. Like the sidearm one, I was like, oh, man, it's going to be tough to not be happy about this. But it's like, all right, everybody calm down. Like somehow this will go wrong. So I don't come to Chicago, but there are plenty of. of other fan bases that will have you and that you will enjoy being a part of right now.

You know what we have week one. Jags Texans. You ready for that? Everybody who's like dying for some football, you're going to get Jags Texans week one. It may say that that game is happening on a Sunday at noon, but that game is happening on a Thursday night in week seven. And both of those teams are like two and five. That's exactly what that game is. All right.

Lindsay, that's all we got. We will talk to you next week. Congratulations on surviving your trip to Florida and surviving the heat. How many public subs did you end up eating? Four in six days. That's not a bad choice. It's not terrible. That's not bad. I did mix in a whole foods at one point.

I decided, you know, let's switch up my grocery chains. And I had two Cuban meals in Tampa. That's a great choice. I have been eating not well. At Nate's wedding was the dessert table really did a number on me. It was not good. It's just one of those things where I hate a variety of available desserts because I'm going to try everything.

That's my problem. I want everything to be small because if I'm going to try it all, I don't want to hate myself, but they were not small. The portions were not. And I ate way too many cookies. And two days later, I'm still feeling it. And I have not been able to eat well because, again, I've been like scrambling around. So I desperately need to get home so I can sit down and put a salad on my body, but we still have a while before I get there.

Well, it's going to be fun because I'm looking forward. I know you are writing based off of some of your travels. I'm in the middle of writing based off of what I learned when I was in Florida. So we're going to have a ton of copy coming. Our beat writers are just crushing it every day. I mean, I sat on the airplane coming home. It was a four hour flight. And I just read like basically the whole flight.

because there's just so much great content. I'm learning so much about the teams that I haven't gotten to see yet. So please continue to check that out. Lindsay, we will talk to you next week. Always good to chat with you. Thanks. See you later. All right, guys.

Now we're going to get to our conversation that I had with Panthers writer, Joe person last week. It's always good to visit with him. Really interesting trip to Spartanburg watching Sam Darnold, where that team is in year or two with that rule. Let's get to our chat with Joe. All right. I'm thrilled now to be joined.

by the Athletics Panthers writer, someone I've known for a long time now. Joe Perser, how you doing, man? Good to see you. Good to see you, too. This is a beautiful setting. I love it here. I mean, it is very warm in the middle of South Carolina in August. It always is at Panthers Camp, but it's at Wofford College.

There's beautiful landscaping around. I mean, it really is a well-manacured kind of pleasant place. I enjoy it. I really do. Well, it's funny you say that. Well, first of all, I don't think I've even mentioned to you, not that you necessarily care. My oldest daughter goes to school here. Oh, nice.

But these, where we're sitting now, if we can kind of describe it to listeners, they are, they were sort of designed to look like tea boxes at Augustine Ash. That's what it feels like. Yeah. Yes. So here we are. And all we need is a pimento cheese sandwich for like $1.50 and we're good. I'm trying not to have bojangles for like the sixth day in a row as I'm down here.

And just hearing pimento cheese now makes me want to put one on a chicken biscuit for lunch. So I feel like I'm going to crack before this is all done. You can't get that in Chicago. I know. I have to just spam it as much as I can while I'm here. So the Panthers had a really interesting practice today. You and I were just talking about it. Everywhere is different.

You know, everywhere is different for me on this trip. Today, in my little tracker that I have to wear, they give you a wristband here, which I really appreciate it because I've almost forgotten it in Buffalo and with the Jets. So it's interesting kind of going through this process. It's kind of a symbol and a reminder how weird everything is. But on top of the protocols, Every practice is different.

I was in Atlanta yesterday, and they were doing all this install, and practice was very slow and methodical, and it seems like they're really bringing along slowly. Today, I mean, after individual work, pretty much as soon as I got here, they were playing. I mean, this was 11 on 11. Some of it was situational red zone, which they practiced red zone. We should let Teddy Bridgewater now.

Trenchin Teddy. Yeah, second day in a row. But they're just playing, and Matt Ruhl alluded to that. And I think that that makes for a really interesting day when you're just kind of dropping in one time over the course of camp. Yeah, that's kind of cool. Both of us stood there for two hours and watched a lot of football. Yes.

Which is what, as you said, that's how Rule described it. Drills are good. We get a lot of work with nine on seven, but sometimes you just got to line up and play like a game and get it on tape, see who's doing well, what needs work on. And they're going to have, and I'm maybe jumping ahead here, but they've got two, they're one of the few teams that's doing two. sets of joint practices, the first one next week in Indianapolis, and then they come back and do the same thing here with Baltimore. For a young team, new quarterback, young offensive line, I think

that's going to be a very important stretch. And they didn't get that last year. And I feel like this is a new experience for them, even being around each other more than they were last season, getting to go on the road together. This is all stuff that is fairly novel to this team. And I think that he didn't answer the question, but Christian McAfre was asked about what's different this year. feel like there's a different feeling around, especially the offense, and to a certain extent, the defense, right? It's year two of Joe Brady. It's year two of that defense-filled rookie class. Expectations have shifted a little bit. The feeling out process that was last year has now transitioned to, all right, what can we really get out of this offense now? How do those guys

look in year two? You're Derek Browns, your Ytor Gros Matos, Jeremy Chin, all of those kind of guys. Would you say that's kind of the tenor of the conversations around this team as you've heard them over the last 10 days or so. I think so. Obviously, there's been a lot of questions about Sam Darnold. Yeah, I know. You know, this feels like a, and I asked that question of Christian, to me, it feels like a pretty distinctly better team all around. The defense, which you mentioned, offense. I mean, yes, they have the Cam Irving question at left tackle, and that's a substantial one. But you look at their, I mean, Taylor Moten, they just locked up at right tackle. I think their guards are pretty solid.

I think Matt Paradis, their center is pretty solid. So it's a better team. How much better? I mean, who knows? So much of that's going to be dependent on how number 14 from the former New York Jets plays out. I thought he looked pretty good today. Just in, again, my amateur brain watching what they were doing. I really was paying attention to what they were doing down in the red zone.

He had a couple really nice completions. One, the back corner of the end. end zone, Robbie Anderson, motioned left to right. And just that is what I'm interested in. This offense, even when Teddy Bridgewater was playing in this offense last year, and then you go back to what Joe Burrow looked like with Joe Brady two years ago, it just feels like the offense is very well communicated to the quarterbacks. They understand the picture that they're seeing. They're allowed to play fast. It makes sense to them. And when you're watching all of that stuff happened in the red zone where it happens very quickly and he looks good, that's a promising sign.

Yeah, I agree. And you and I were talking. during practice, and you had asked about Darnold, and I said it was a little choppy the first week during the install. Of course, they're in shorts, so the offensive line, I think D-line naturally has an advantage in those situations. But now that he's getting some better protection, he's the last two days, he's been very crisp. He's throwing the ball on time, and you're right. I mean, Joe Brady's a special coach. I mean, he's going places in this league. I'm not breaking any news there. And that's what they're banking on, right? Like getting Sam out of New York, getting him with a dynamic offense coordinator around more playmakers, will it be the difference?

And I'm certainly not going to make any judgments on the last two days of practice, but it's been promising. So when you're looking at just the offensive depth chart, right, the offensive line is a big question. You have Cam Irving and Pat Elflan on the left side who they sign in free agency. I still think some questions about why that was the plan. I think those will continue until we see that group in action. If it goes poorly, then they'll only get even louder. But in terms of the skill position, guys, obviously we know the big names. Robbie Anderson, DJ Moore, who's now wearing number two and confusing me.

Christian McCaffrey is back. It seemed like Terrace Marshall is going to be the third receiver when they play in those three receiver sets. It certainly looks that way. He's a big target and has looked good running around catching a football. That's exciting. I mean, that is a lot of flash and ability, and I really am looking forward to that element of it. A tight end is more of a question. Matt Ruhl was talking about Dan Arnold today. Dan Arnold is a really, a guy that's done some stuff, you know, when we've seen him over the last couple stops he's been at in New Orleans and Arizona. He's a promising receiving tight end. And then they have Tommy Trumbull, who they drafted this year. How do you see that spot shaking out in terms of when they're an 11 personnel who the number one tight end is going to be? You know, it may depend on what they're doing. I mean, Arnold is. You know, you know, it may depend on what they're doing. I mean, Arnold is. You know, you know, you said, he is a receiving tight end first and foremost. They don't, other than tremble, they don't really have a super blocking tight end. They did last year, Chris Mannhurt's signed with Jacksonville.

But I'm excited to see Dan Arnold. I haven't completely given up on Ian Thomas, but I'm kind of leaning that direction. I thought he was going to be an athletic kid who would make plays, and it just really hadn't happened. and he has not been consistent. Arnold is making the plays all through camp so far that I thought he and Thomas would when he replaced Greg Olson last year. And I think that's when you, Dan Arnold, we've seen what they can do on a team where a lot of guys are out in the routes, right?

I mean, when you have five eligible receivers, and it's Dan Arnold, Christian McCaffrey, and those three receivers, there's a lot for Sam Donald to work with in those scenarios. Defense, it's year two for a lot of guys, but I still feel like there are a lot of question mark. right? How do the edge rush naps? Shake out on the other side of Brian Burns. What does the secondary look like when AJ Boyer gets back?

What are the main questions you have about that side of the ball as we're eight days in here? You know, the two, the things you mentioned, I want to see Derek Brown take a step. I mean, I thought he did some nice things last year, but he really wasn't as disruptive as I think myself and a lot of people would have expected. I mean, that dude was a beast in the SEC at Auburn. I mean, just lived in opponents' backfields. I get it. It's a different level, different blocking schemes.

And Brown said that himself. He expects more. And if they get an interior pass rush out of him and or DeQuan Jones, pushing and flushing that pocket into Reddick and Burns, that's, I mean, that's how Phil Snow has got to draw it up. And probably the biggest question mark defensively to me is inside linebacker. They brought in Denzel Perryman who promptly got hurt, which has been his history with the Chargers. And they haven't really replaced Luke Keekly, and that's been two years ago.

They tried to hear Whitehead last year. He did not play very well. And, you know, we could do a whole podcast on this. is the inside linebacker position all that important when you're in nickel as much as teams are? Probably not, but still interesting. And that's what you'd hope is a guy like Jeremy Chin. Can you have a little bit more flexibility on the back end? When the corners are all healthy, does it feel like it's going to be Dante Jackson and J.C. Horn on the outside?

Or is A.J. Boyer probably going to fight for one of those spots? No, I think you're right. Horn outside. I mean, that's why they drafted him, big physical kid. He's made more plays on the ball early on here than he did at South Carolina. Of course, they didn't get tested a lot. Boyer probably goes into that inside nickel spot. And that's kind of a nice luxury to have. Yes.

And frankly, at this point, at his career, it's probably a better fit for him. You wrote about J.C. Horn earlier this week, and you mentioned something just in terms of mechanics that I thought was really interesting. He's working on moving straight backward more in this defense. They did in college where it was a lot of – he put a lot of – he put a lot of – lot of sticky man coverage. It was a half turn toward the receiver. What did you learn in that process and asking him about that kind of stuff? First of all, like you, I'm fascinated when they start getting inside football like that. It's so cool. And, you know, it's interesting that you don't think about a guy who's that athletic that it's still an adjustment,

going to more of a standard back pedal like Phil Snow wants his corners to use here. And I think he's getting there. The thing that I thought was interesting that Rule said about J.C. Horn is he's a little grabby. Well, we knew that. Yeah, that was that. That's you, if you watched me in college, you knew that. And it, you know, that's going to, you know, this guy's going to have a lot of flags thrown at him in the early going. And he had, J.C. had an interesting response that. He said, look, I want to be aware of it, but I don't want to be overthinking it. I don't want it to take away from what I'm really good at. I can completely understand that. That's a position where it's so tempting

to look at a guy drafted in the top ten and just think in your mind, well, we've solved that problem. It's not how corners work. Especially with rookies. I mean, you look at the performances we've seen, even from the guys that ended up becoming superstars later on. Jari or Alexander, players like that, it can be rocky early on. And I think there

is going to be an adjustment for him because in college he could just bully people. He could push people around. There were very few guys that were going to be able to match him physically with the physicality that he played with here everybody's going to be able to every single receiver he plays against is the best receiver he played against in the SEC that's just how it's going to work so there's definitely going to be an adjustment period i have to ask you about brian burns before we

leave because we love brian burns on this podcast and you recently wrote about brian berns are the expectations for brian burns here as high as they are in my heart i guess that's what i would ask absolutely and that that i like talking to that dude he is just first of all he's which we like in this business. He doesn't really care what people think about what he's about to say. And he just tells it like it is. And he, you know, he looks like he is the next Pro Bowl player for this team. And he should be.

I mean, you know, fairly, you know, mid-round, first-rounder out of Florida State a few years ago. We're seeing this trajectory. And I think, you mentioned this earlier, I think Hassan Reddick helps Burns a little bit. I think he's still going to get the double teams more so than Redd. but terrific player and I'm excited to watch and see what he can do this year. What would you say in year two of Matt Rule constitute success for this team? Winning record, I think. That would probably be the bar I would said.

I don't think that's what Matt's talking about at the team meetings. Let's go nine and eight. But seriously, I mean, five and 11 last year in a weird COVID year, they've got their system in place now. the guys are comfortable with it. The NFC South feels like a division in transition other than the team at the top. But I think there's an opportunity for a team like the Panthers to, you know, win more games than they lose

and hang around for one of those wild card spots potentially. And I think the other side of that is to Sam Donald look like a real quarterback. Not only because we've invested in Sam Darnold emotionally, or that's the bet we've made this off seat, they picked up his fifth year option. He's an $18 million quarterback next year. having that guy as a functioning quarterback

that can really have this offense clicking and playing the way we expect with those receivers and with Joe Brady, that to me is success because if you can roll that into next season possibly, then really start building. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, otherwise, you're doing the quarterback dance all over again. It's a terrible dance.

Is it Deshaun Watson? I mean, that whole, again, that's a topic for a whole other podcast. But yeah, and you don't want to, look, look, they can pay Sam Darnold not to play for them in 2022, much like they did with Teddy. But that's start, you know, that's bad. That's bad business.

It hurts your books. It hurts what you can do at other positions. It's free agency. If you're playing that quarterback roulette game every single year, you're not as attractive of destination. It's hard to move forward as a franchise. I mean, it's,

I trust me, I know that dance. It's been a yearly thing as part of my life for 33 years. It's really, really difficult. And I guarantee you, they don't want to be doing it again. Right.

Right. Now, listen, it's going to be interesting. I mean, they pushed their chips in on Sam Darnold. They were trying to get in on staff. You know, they made the offer for Stafford. They were in on Dachon until that all went sideways. And Darnel was like the next guy standing. One of the only guys still standing, unless you wanted, you know, Fitzpatrick or somebody.

And so we'll see. I mean, he holds the key, really. I mean, the defense could be great. And if your quarterback's terrible and this. league, you know, you're not going to the playoffs. Joe, person, always good to catch up with you, my friend. Really good to see you. And we will definitely be doing this again. As we sit here, let's let's, let's tee off. Let's go play nine. I do kind of want to play golf today. Today's my first day where I don't have to get in the car and go somewhere else. I don't have my golf

clubs and actually do have a lot of work to do, but it is tempting. Well, I appreciate you having me on, buddy. Awesome. Good talk to you. All right, guys. That is all we have today. Thank you so much to Lindsay, thank you so much to Joe. Really enjoyed those chats. We will be back tomorrow. Really exciting show tomorrow. We're going to have my good friend, Bill Barnwell, on tomorrow's show, as well as a conversation with our Chargers writer, Daniel Popper. A lot of Chargers chats on the show. He knows this team much better than I do, much better than most people do. So really looking forward to digging into that with him. We also, I hope, will have an assistant coach from one of my stops in L.A. over the lack last couple days.

So be on the lookout for that. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. We're getting back in the swing of things here. So that would mean a lot to me. Please subscribe to the athletic. Like Lindsay mentioned earlier on the show, I'm writing this week.

It has been a struggle, but we're going to get there. There's so much good stuff out there. I'm telling you, we talked about Matt Fairbairn's piece about the Josh Allen contract. Again, talking with our LA writers this week, all the stuff that they're putting out is invaluable, is indispensable if you're trying to keep up with the NFL at this stage of the calendar.

If you're preparing for fantasy drafts, a million different reasons to get your athletic subscription right now as we ramp up to NFL season, Theathletic.com slash football show. Please go do that. I promise you won't regret it. We'll be back tomorrow with my good buddy, Bill Barnwell. Talk to you guys then. See ya. This was the athletic football show.