The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Biggest NFL offseason questions with Lindsay Jones

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Lindsay Jones of The Ringer joins Robert Mays to discuss some of the biggest questions heading into the 2023 NFL offseason. From Aaron Rodgers and Lamar Jackson, to new coaching regimes and everything in between.1:40 What is Aaron Rodgers going to decide?7:47 What happens with Lamar Jackson in Baltimore?16:08 What will the Bears do at No. 1?21:30 Which big-name pass catcher gets traded?25:29 What will the marriage between Sean Payton and Russell Wilson look like?33:40 What does a Joe Burrow extension look like and what does it say about the future of the QB market?42:26 Which new OC will make the biggest splash?47:13 Will there be any big-name veterans traded?Sponsored byVisa - proud sponsor of Super Bowl LVIILinkedIn - LinkedIn Jobs helps you find the qualified candidates you want to talk to, faster. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com/MaysPhilo - Sign up today at philo.tv and use promo code NBASHOW to get 50% off your first monthRoman - Visit ro.co/athletic to get 20% off your first Roman order today!Atlassian - For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.comMorgan & Morgan - Morgan & Morgan - NEW For more information on Morgan & Morgan services, go to forthepeople.com/nbashow or dial 1(800) POUND-LAW from your cell phone Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining us today, it's an old friend. Lindsay Jones from the ringer, Lindsay, how are you? I'm great, Robert. Good to see you again. It was lovely to see you last week in person in Arizona.

And now it's nice to see you over a stream, live stream here. It's an unfortunate affliction that I have that I'm not very creative when I have to create content every single day of my entire life. we did this show last year. This is the exact same show. We did this show last year at this exact same time. And when I was thinking about who I wanted to have on, I was like, well, why wouldn't I just ask Lindsay if she'll do it? I know we're going to have a good conversation.

I know she'll make me think about stuff. I wasn't necessarily going to bring up. So we're going to do the biggest offseason questions today because I don't have a creative bone in my entire body. Well, how did we do last year? Did you go back and listen to it? Did we have the right questions and the right answers? I'm sure we did.

I'm sure we did. I'm sure we did a great job. It's no use going back and wasting time listening to that. But that's what we're going to do today. We're going to run through some of the biggest offseason questions that we have. This is going to run on Friday after the Super Bowl. This is the right time to be having these sorts of conversations because the offseason is upon us. We've got some stuff that's really already bubbling over with Derek Carr.

We may get to that. We may not. But a lot of this stuff is looming. And I think that the conversations around it are really going to pick up here over the next couple weeks. So why don't you start, Lindsay? What is the biggest question that's come to mind for you as it relates to this offseason? Sure. Well, you know, I think a theme today is going to be quarterbacks because this is the NFL and the quarterback moves that are to come.

And the questions really are going to dictate so many, so many of the moves that happen, there's going to be a ton of dominoes. I think the biggest question or the first domino, the thing that is going to dominate the talk shows, all of that stuff here over the next week is what is Aaron Rogers going to decide whenever he, he emerges from the darkness. From the darkness. Is he in the dark? We're not sure exactly. It's up for debate when exactly he was entering his darkness retreat. But, you know, his plan, as he has said on the Pat McAfee show, is that he's going

to take these four days in a dark house room where he basically has, is alone with his thoughts. He will have food and water. But no social media, no phone. It's being delivered to him. He's not eating the house. The food gets delivered to you. This seems like a pretty bougie mindfulness.

retreat. I'm going to be honest with you. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I mean, last year he went on the like, or I guess the last two off seasons, right? He's done some sort of like hallucinogenic, uh, retreat. So this seems a little different than that. Although I think if I spent more than four hours in darkness, I would probably like, be hallucinating various things as well. I think that's the point is that it does kind of take you to that place. How would you do in a darkness retreat? I mean, as the, as the parent of a young child who, uh, and like the manager of like a household or are you, just feel like there's stuff going on all the time. I feel like a couple hours would be great, but more than that, and I think I would lose my mind. I mean, I have like a major social media phone addiction. I don't know. I think it would get old pretty quick, I think. I've tried to do some meditation in my life. I'm not very good at it, which is always how it is at the beginning, right? It's like a muscle you flex. But the way that I've always described my brain is that it's like a barrel of monkeys fighting over a cheese it. Like that's the general energy that's happening in there at all times.

So a darkness retreat where I'm just completely shut off in the world for a number of days, I don't know if I would do super great. Yeah. Like the 10 minutes of like mindfulness at the end of like a yoga or a bar class is perfect. I don't think I need more than. I don't know how much more. But to get back to like. So when he emerges, what do you think he's going to do?

So well that and that's what's kind of wild is like he's going to be alone with his thoughts for four days to be like thinking about like the New York Jets, which is a dark, dark place. That's the real darkness. That's the real darkness. So, you know, I think he's going to be considering, does he, one, want to play football anymore, right? Is that the central question is thinking about what is his future? Does he want to continue being an NFL quarterback? Assuming the answer to that question is yes, does he want to remain a Green Bay Packer?

Is it time for a conscious uncoupling, which is probably some of the terminology that he would try to use? I'm sure he and Gwenath Castro share a lot of taste. A lot. There's a lot of a hippie-dippy. maybe she'll be in the darkness retreat as well. Big goop user Aaron Rogers. And then the other thing that's kind of, he does not have a no trade clause. This isn't going to be an ideal or an identical situation to, you know, Russell Wilson last

year or even Deshaun Watson last year, these quarterbacks who could dictate where they go because they had a no trade clause. But he is going to have some say in this, right? I mean, he's going to have to agree that he wants to keep playing, that he's going to give his new team some assurances that he's going to. to show up that he's not going to bail, you know, midway through training camp or that, you know, the tricky thing is who trades for him is how much assurance do you have that he's going to play beyond 2023 too, because you'd be giving up a lot. You'd be paying him a lot. So what he decides

is going to determine a lot of these other factors, which teams are in that trading trading pool. Does Derek Carr jump ahead? Does Derek Carr, who is a free agent today? Can he, get involved, sign with one of those teams while Aaron Rogers is in the darkness and remove one of those options. So I just think there's going to be a lot of quarterback movement. But, you know, Rogers and then to an extent Derek Carr are going to determine how the rest of it spins. What are you rooting for in the Rogers situation? Chaos, as much chaos as possible.

And that I think involves him going to the Jets, right? Yeah, I think so. The possible chaos is him landing in New York and everything that's going to come along with that. I think a lot of the options have intriguing tales. I mean, I think the Raiders, a reunion with Devante Adams would be interesting. You know, I think there could be a lot of, you know, what is he like with the Josh McDaniels situation? I mean, I think the Jets is the most interesting and fun option. There's still a bit of me that thinks he's going to come out of this and the Packers are going to come out of this and they're just going to stay together for one more year.

although the longer this goes, the more kind of untenable it seems to be, you know, that they've kind of set themselves up to we have to pick between Aaron Rogers and Jordan Love this off season. I mean, but yeah, in general is like a content creator, you know, a writer, an editor, a podcaster. I just want as much like drama and chaos as possible. So it's probably the chance, right? I think so too. It would just be fun to have the Packers turn a page and see what the Jordan Love era looked like surrounded by it still a really. good team. There's a lot of talent on that team. So what could he do surrounded by all of those guys?

Could he be a viable quarterback right away? What would that mean for the Packers future? I think there's a lot of intrigue there. The Jets, beyond just the sheer drama of it all, I think the Jets have really good players. I don't know how sustainable defensive success is from year to year like the Jets had last season, but I think the core of guys that they have is very good. They have some pass catchers on that team. We'll see what they can do with the offensive line this offseason. If you drop Aaron Rogers into that entire formula, I think that could be a really good team and a team that's relevant in the AFC right away. So I do think that that's what I want to see.

I have one bigger quarterback question, though. And it is time now for the Visa game-changing moment presented by Visa, proud sponsor of Super Bowl 57. We talk about game changers in the NFL period. Lamar Jackson might be at the top of that list. So the way he's changed the sport, the way he's changed. the way he's changed how we look at quarterbacks, and the way he's hoping to change the way the quarterback contracts are handed out to guys who aren't Deshaun Watson this offseason.

So what happens with Lamar Jackson and Baltimore? Does he end up in Baltimore? If he gets franchise tagged, does he get traded? If he gets tagged and another team wants to jump in the fray, if it's a non-exclusive tag or if a team just wants to trade for him, what does that contract look like if he gets traded? So I think there are a half a dozen questions. about Lamar Jackson and his future that are at front of mind for me right now.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this was a kind of a cloud hanging over the Ravens all of last season, all of last off season for sure. And then even when the Ravens and Lamar kind of made it clear, we're not getting a deal done in October. Like we're kind of tabling this. We're pushing it off. It still was hanging over everything.

You know, the fact that he didn't play again through the rest of the season. The injury situation was kind of murky. what exactly was going on. Could he have come back? Could he not come back? What was going on there? It's going to be wild because there are some, there's a lot of quarterback needy teams.

And there's probably teams that are looking at the free agents that are available that are looking at the draft class and are looking at a former MVP, a one-of-one most unique player in the NFL who could dramatically transform any offense and saying, should we at least explore trading for him? should we see what it might cost. I'm going to be really interested to see which tag the Ravens place on him. If they do the exclusive or the non-exclusive, if they say, go out and test your market, go out and see. Or if they would risk another team coming in and making a bonkers offer that they're, you know, that they absolutely cannot match.

If they would risk doing that. There's just a lot of, you know, kind of things at play. So the exclusive franchise tag, I believe, is going to be a $45 million. Is that right? It's like $45.2. Non-exclusive is like 32. Yeah. So the salary is more tradable, but you open yourself up to the possibility of losing him.

I also think that if you trade him, that contract is going to get ripped up immediately. So that's why I don't really understand why the non-exclusive and exclusive is so important here. Because if you're the Ravens, don't you want more than two first-round picks for Lamar Jackson? Yeah, absolutely. So that $13 million difference in salary, if you give him the non-exclusive tag and somebody gives him a crazy, guaranteed offer that you don't want to match. You only get two first round picks. Sean Watson got three first round picks.

Matthew Stafford, who was deep into his 30s when he got traded, was worth two first round picks. Lamar Jackson is a 26-year-old former MVP. So the idea of only getting two first-round picks from Lamar Jackson, that's hard to stomach for me. So that's what the non-exclusive tag would give you. Yeah. And I do wonder, though, if there's like, if the salary is lower, it would help a team that

maybe was a little tighter under the cap and they can start. or bonuses in such in a way. I'm not sure exactly. But if you trade for him, can't you just rip that up? Because he's no longer playing on the tag. You've signed him to an extension. Yeah.

You would, yeah, it depends on if he had, I guess if he'd signed it or not. I've even not had enough coffee for my salary cap mechanisms this morning. I just don't, I just don't think two first round picks is enough.

So this idea that if they give him the non-exclusive tag and they decide not to match. It's definitely not enough. And that's just not enough for me. So which tag they signed me, I don't know, maybe is less important to me or maybe I'm not totally understanding the mechanisms in place. But I, if I were one of these teams, especially if it's two first round picks and a new contract, I'm doing that almost immediately. Because think about the other ways you'd have to try to find a quarterback. If you're, I don't want to step on a quarterback here, so I'll show that we're doing next week.

If you're a team picking at like 10, right, or you're a team picking just outside of the top 10. and you would want to go up and get one of the quarterbacks in this draft. You would very likely have to give up that, the pick you're giving, the pick you have right now, and then a future first round pick. So it's going to be multiple first round picks spent on that quarterback to go get him. You don't know if that guy's even good. And I understand you're giving Lamar Jackson that contract, but that's a bet I'd be willing to make if I were some of these teams that don't really have a clear path to a top flight quarterback

and have some interesting pieces. I think that he could instantly make you relevant in a way that very few other players in the league could. And I understand if you're Baltimore, you know, not wanting to give him that deal, wanting to kind of have a fresh start, I think that it's risky. You're kind of walking into the wilderness here

without an answer, and there's always a lot of downside to that. But if I were another team, and I thought that I had enough to allow him to succeed, you know, the team I'd keep coming back to, I'm sure we'll talk about this a lot, is Atlanta. If I were Atlanta, I just, I would, it'd be hard not to envision what he could be in that situation. Yeah.

They had Marcus Mario da last year. It's not a far cry skill set-wise. You're just getting the best version of the offense you tried to run last year. You already have Kyle Pitts. You already have Drake London. You have some pieces along the offensive line. You have a really creative play caller. And that's the value here, right?

when you're a team like the Falcons or a team like the Bears who aren't in their situation really because they have a quarterback or maybe and a team like the Giants for example. Yeah, a team like the Giants. Your weapon is cap space and you can't spend cap space on all these players. Having a rookie quarterback contract is obviously valuable. But I still think you're set up and positioned in a way to absorb something like this in a way that a lot of other teams aren't. So I'll be fascinated what his market looks like if the Ravens choose. to move on from him or choose to kind of listen to offers for him.

Yeah. I would say the one other, like, what might happen? Big question out there is, what if they give him the exclusive franchise tag? And he says, no. And there isn't a trade that happens. Do we get to the point that it's July? It's August. And he's still not there.

And is he willing to be the guy who says, I'm not playing on this? And he sits out a year. That's why if you're the Ravens, I think that if you're going to tag him, them, you should just trade him. Because there's never going to be a hotter market for him than there is this spring. If you get into August and the quarterback Domino's have already fallen and seats are filled and you don't think he's going to play, the options are just so more limited than they would be if you try to do it right now.

If you don't think he's worth a long-term extension, it's probably worth just trading him because I don't know how often this really works out. Yeah. It's just, it's going to be so fascinating because after the, the Watson deal, last year. We were waiting, right, to see, did this change, I mean, amid all the other conversations that we had, but we had the like, is this going to change quarterback contracts forever? And what we saw was that so far it hasn't, right? We have not seen that type of deal. And is Lamar the guy who is going to hold out, who is going to push for that deal and move the quarterback market forward and

all contract markets forward, really, at that point? Is he willing to do that to be the guy who's you know, says, I'm not playing until this is fully guaranteed or I get that exact amount of guarantees that I deserve. It's just going to be really fascinating. And the reason that happens is if multiple teams get in on the bidding. It was never going to happen if it was just the Ravens, but if there can be some sort of bidding work because he's on the non-exclusive tag or it's clear that he's available, then I think that we could see a deal like that because that's what happened with Watson.

We've seen that happen with even guys like Kirk Cousins in the past. If you can hit free agency or de facto free agency, and there are three teams that are trying to one-up themselves to get you, that's how a game-changing contract going back to the beginning could potentially happen for somebody like Lamar Jackson. All right. What's your next one? All right. I mean, you kind of already hinted at this. But what are the bears going to do at number one is going to be, sorry I'd always bring up the bears here. For old time's sake, we got to get there.

But it's going to be the other, just like big domino piece of this off season, right? It's they are sitting there with so many options that are going to dictate what happens, not just in the rest of the draft, but kind of in the rest of the market. And we're sitting, you know, they're sitting there at number one. Obviously the three big, the three clear options, right, that they have are you just take the best defensive player available. You take Will Anderson, you take Jalen Carter. You'd be thrilled to get the best player on your board. hopefully a guy who's going to define your defense for the next 10 years.

Option two, you trade that pick with one of those quarterback needy teams like you discussed, right? One of these teams is going to have to give up a lot, indie Carolina. I mean, Jim Mersey, like bookmark his tweets, put on alerts because he's already out there. So he posted a picture of himself as a child sitting on a bear at Lincoln Park Zoo the other day. I mean, he said he has a long relationship with Chicago Bears, lowercase B. I do want to know more about sitting on a bear. Is that something that children in Chicago do? I never sat on a bear.

I've been to the Lincoln Park 2. Can we get her in here to ask her about your childhood and riding bears? Mom, do we ride bears in Chicago as children? Is that a thing? Just Jim? Pretty soon this is going to turn into the... She's gone. She wanted no part of the childhood bear.

riding. But, but, um, but, but yeah, I mean, so that's the other thing, right, is there's a big trade. One of these teams moves up. The bears get a ton of draft picks. They get to continue rebuilding their roster. Yes. Option to see. For years for years to come. And then the third option is, uh, they trade Justin Fields and take a quarterback at number one. Right? Those are the three big options. And I'm missing, am I missing one? But all of those have a lot of interesting effects for the rest of the league. Yeah. The idea of

taking a player number one who is not a quarterback to me is off the table. Like, I just don't think that that happens. I don't think that should happen because you could probably get that guy a little bit later in the draft,

whether it's at four or five, if there are multiple quarterbacks taken at the top. I think that you have to wield that pick in any way possible. And I think that that pick has to turn into more draft picks somehow. Ideally, that is moving down.

keeping Justin Fields and drafting some sort of high-end defensive player. If it is trading Justin Fields and taking quarterback with number one overall pick, that is still another way to get draft picks. So that first, that number one overall pick can't just be that number one overall pick, in my opinion, if you're the Bears right now. I think you have to understand how valuable that is in a draft with multiple quarterbacks. So, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, it's just going to be a big question until there is some sort of move because then it's going to tell us what the Colts are going to do

or what the Texans are going to do, or a team that trades for Justin Fields, what they look like all of a sudden. I mean, there's just going to be a lot of, a lot of ripple effects. And I'm very excited to hear all of the buzz and late night bar conversations coming out of Indianapolis in two weeks about what the bears might possibly be thinking and are going to do.

I was hoping. I went back and I wanted to see when did the Rams trade up to number one in 2016? Because that's kind of the last time I can remember. the team really moving up the draft in a big way to go get the number one pick for a quarterback. It was the middle of April. I was really hoping it was like March 10th. And we didn't have to do this for two months. Yeah.

When was the Niners? I mean, it wasn't to number one, but when was the Niners trade, the trail? That was quicker. It was a little earlier, wasn't it? Yeah, that was in March. I think that was right before the, before or during free agency. It was post-combine. Yeah, it was before or during free agency.

It was March 26th. So that was a little bit earlier because I can remember we were in the midst of doing a free agency reaction podcast. And then we had to get back on me and Sandota to talk about that. So it was a little bit earlier. But I assume that they're going to play this out for a while. We'll see what sort of smoke screens come out and how people are trying to deceive one another and which little things. I don't think these are smokescreens. I think he's literally just like thirsting.

I don't think it's capable of doing that. But we'll see what the bears are doing in order to kind of drum up a market for that. But it's obviously a huge question. This is an old NFL owner's version of a thirst trap, I think, is just like putting it all out there and hoping that the bears notice and slide into his DMs. Yeah. I think that my ideal world is they move down with someone. They still pick in a range where they can get one of the best defensive players in the draft, but they get a future first round pick as part of the package.

That's always what I've been hoping for. And if that's something with Indy, you know, because they're afraid of their guy getting picked at number one. You know, if Carolina wants to come all the way up there. But then if you're, if you move all the way down to Carolina's pick, are you in range to get one of those guys? There are a bunch of different things to consider. But I have to assume that they're going to try to get everything they can for that pick if they don't plan on drafting your quarterback. All right. My next one here.

Which big name pass catcher gets moved this year? Last year was obviously kind of unprecedented. Yeah. I mean, the movement last year was obviously insane with Tyree Kill and Devante and A.J. Brown. I don't think we're going to see something like that this year. And I also don't think that there are that many young guys that are maybe as ripe of candidates as A.J. Brown was to get moved. There was all those 2019 guys that we thought might get traded. Only one of them did.

So is it one of the young guys? Is it a T. Higgins, Jerry Judy? Brandon Ayuk is one of those guys, even though he's going to be on his 50-year option a year from now. so he's not hitting free agency quite as quickly. You know, these teams that have a lot of good players have a glut of options at that position, can they afford to pay everybody? If I were a team like the Chicago Bears who potentially need another receiver and might have a lot of draft picks,

I think those are the guys I would be calling about, specifically IUK and T. Higgins, just to check. Both of those teams might say, you know what, we feel fine. You know, the Niners are going to go with, they have young quarterbacks on rookie contracts. We can afford these guys for at least one more year. We think we're a contender right now. No, thank you.

The Bengals could say the same thing. We're going to talk about Joe Burrow here in a second in that contract, but they could say, you know what, we can afford him right now. You know, we'll figure that plan out later. We're not going to break up a Super Bowl caliber group and a Super Bowl caliber corps just because we're worried about what's going to happen a year from now, two years from now. No, thank you.

Do the Colts want to move on from Michael Pittman because they're sort of rebuilding? Do they think he's necessary because they have a young quarterback? I don't know the answer to any of these things, but these are phone calls that I think you should. make if you were in the market for a receiver. And then obviously there's the veterans. We've already heard about DeAndre Hopkins being available. I think that makes a lot of sense based on where the Cardinals are.

So is a team going to go out and get DeAndre Hopkins? The Bucks have a lot of expensive players on their team. Mike Evans is going to be a free agent after this season. Is he somebody that can be moved? Brandon Cook's one step down from that. So in a year where there aren't that many high-end pass catchers in the draft and the free agent market of wide receivers is led by Jacoby Myers and Olomede Zakias and guys like that because teams have been so quick to retain these guys, what does the trade market look like

and does it materialize in the same way that it did last year? Yeah, and the blueprint is out there now, right? There's no question that the way to dramatically overhaul your receiving core and get immediate results is to invest in it and invest in it through a trade. it worked for everybody. I mean, for the Raiders, like, it didn't completely transform their offense and make them a AFC West contender. But Devante Haddon's still really freaking good.

It is going to be really good for whoever their next quarterback is. But it was an unquestioned win for Philadelphia. It was a clear win for Miami and the way that those two players transformed their respective offenses. So it's out there. Team C that it's that one, you can do this. And two, you probably need to do this if you. have a vacancy there. And maybe there's guys that we're not even thinking about yet that could be available

for one reason or another. But if I were somebody like Ryan Poles or again, if you're the Giants and you, like, we have all this cap space, but we need help a receiver, but there are any guys available, just teams in that position, I'd just be making all the calls I possibly could and just kicking the tires on every single one of these guys. Like there's been some buzz around in Denver lately. like could Cortland Sutton be one of those guys? I mean, he got paid.

Or Jerry Judy. Judy especially because he has not gotten his second contract. Sutton has gotten his second deal. But that they have some larger contracts and trying to figure out what actually is going to work for whatever this. We'll get there, whatever the new Russell Wilson offense is going to look like. But, you know, Sutton's a guy who's kind of been, his name has been buzzing around a little bit as maybe a guy who could get moved. What's your next one? All right.

Well, I'll just, I'll just seamlessly transit. into that, right? Here in Denver, we can't have a podcast with me on it. If we don't talk about the Broncos, so it's not just you guys. And I wrote about this briefly for the ringer earlier this week as we talked about our big quarterback or our big offseason questions. And it's what is going to happen? How is this marriage between Sean Payton and Russell Wilson going to work out? And it is going to be fascinating. And I know you guys have discussed it a lot. We've talked about it a lot about how the Broncos actually ended up with Sean Payton in the first place and what their coaching search was like and what they had to give up to get Peyton.

But ultimately, I think he was of the guys that was out there, the guys that were actually attainable, probably the best guy for Russell Wilson, just in terms of offensive pedigree, creativity, play calling experience. And then I think this is probably the most important part is the authority to come in and say, this is what we're doing. This is who you need to be as a quarterback. This is what I see is your strengths. weaknesses and this is how we're doing it and not having, I mean, ultimately like it probably will

turn into some version of the Russell Wilson offense because he is who he is as a quarterback. But Sean Payton is probably the one guy who can come in there and say, stop trying to be Drew Brie's or stop trying to be some quarterback that you're not. This is what you can do well. I spent, I watched every single snap that you've taken over the last 10 years. I watched every snap you took in 2020, five times. And here's where you're at right now. And let's be a realistic.

And to design an offense that actually has an identity and actually can do the things that Russell Wilson does well here at age, I'll be 34, 34 next year. Yeah, 34, 35. Yeah. So, you know, but personality-wise, how is this going to work with the other personnel that they have? What is the rest of his staff going to look like? His offensive line coaches, receivers coach.

All of that stuff is still kind of in flux right now. So for all of the stuff that Sean Payton has been doing, you saw him, he was out on Radio Row last week. He sure was. He's been doing press in Denver. And he did his intro here. As much as he talks about how much he can't wait to work with George Payton and he's excited about ownership and the Broncos fan tradition and stuff, the thing that's going to define if he is successful or not in this second stage of his coaching career is if it works with Russell. that's I mean that is central to everything see I just I don't believe that I don't think it's going to work

I don't it's not that I don't think it's going to work I don't think it matters I think that if he can't work with Russell Wilson this year and Russell Wilson will be gone I I just I think we're going to spend a lot of time talking about that this year and whether Sean Peyton can fix Russell Wilson and what that marriage looks like that's not front of mind for me. I just don't really think it matters that much. I don't think he took this job with any sort of pressure to fix Russell Wilson. I think he took this job with the long view in mind. I'm sure there were conversations about this. And basically everything else he had to ask for, everything else he got to ask for, all the leverage he came into this with. I can't imagine.

Ownership was like, man, you got to make this work. You got to make it work with Russ. I think they'll do their best. And if it doesn't work, they'll find a way to move. on. But I was like they cannot afford another season like last year where you have a bottom five offense and the fans are booing you and you're getting questioned all the time about and there's fighting in the locker room and your defense hates your quarterback, your offensive line, you know, all of that stuff. He has to fix that stuff right now and that is going to involve that relationship with Russ and repairing all of the damage within that building. I think that that That's more about making sure you're putting your foot down and dictating how the building operates

in the way we've already seen him do. I think keeping the rest of the team, the rest of the locker room, the rest of the building intact probably involves saying this is how it's going to be. And if that means alienating Russ in some way or upsetting him in some way, I just don't think it matters. So the question for me is how does everything else work in Denver? I find that more fascinating than the Russell Wilson, Sean Peyton, marriage. Rex Ryan is going to be the defensive coordinator of this team. That's interesting to me.

He hasn't coached since 2016. Yep. So that's that for whatever reason. Damn good coordinator though. I mean. If that's what Sean Payton thinks his best option is, let's see how that works. Because there's some talent on that side of the ball. What does the player acquisition plan look like this offseason?

Do they try to go out and get a couple guys right now? Are they trying to win right now? Do they think that they may have to move on from Russ in a year or two? So they're going to be looking at $40 million in dead money on the cap in 2025. And how does that shape their team building process? Who's picking the players? How much power does George Payton have? How much power does Sean Peyton have?

If he's going to be relaying directly to ownership, do they go out and get another quarterback this offseason? Not an expensive one. But are they shopping in the high-end backup bucket? And what does that tell us? Because Russ has injury guarantees that kick in late in the season. If this doesn't go well, and the name I've said repeatedly, and the one I keep coming back to, if there's a Jacoby-Perset-esque player on this team that they say,

you know, Russ, we're good. Like, thank you very much, appreciate everything. You're going to sit down and we're going to try to win with this guy. What does that tell us about the future of the franchise? Them going out and getting a guy like that, I think would send a big message. So beyond the Russell Wilson thing, there are like 10 other questions I have about what the 20, 23 Broncos are going to look like. I do think still that the fundamental, like the best case scenario is you have hired the best offensive coach who is available this offseason. And you try to make it work with Russ.

But all of that other stuff is going to be, it's just going to be fascinating. And I'm glad it's happening right down the road. And I'm just hoping that there's better football here. It was last year was really depressing. I think it'll be better. I think it'll be better. My Broncos fan friends were miserable. I mean,

I'll never forget that indie game and just what the crowd felt like and what that moment felt like and just how deflating it was. I was there that night. It was, uh, it was bad. It was really bad. I've, I wrote in the elevator that game with, um, the announcers with Kirk Curb Street and Al Michaels.

And Al Michaels looked like he had been through like, 15 round fight and was just like so beat down hell am i doing i mean it was herb shrie was like you know chuckling like laughing it up whatever like he did you know but michael's was like what the laugh did i just i've heard about kirk's checks i'm sure he's enjoying that job yeah he was he was fine michael's was having a little bit more of like an existential like what am i doing with my life moment i think i'm really interested in what the offensive staff is going to look like because one of the underrated parts of what happened in New Orleans is that no one ever left.

You know, Pete Carmichael was there pretty much Sean Payton's entire tenure. A lot of the other assistants had been there for a really long time in some capacity. You know, Joe Lombardi was the quarterback's coach for most of that time. You know, they shuffled between a couple offensive line coaches, but a lot of those guys were mainstays. And so what does he do? I think they have asked to talk to Ronald Curry about the offensive coordinator spot. He was on those saint staff. So the people he surrounds himself with, that's a lot of.

another question for me of what that staff is going to look like because a lot of the infrastructure that allowed the saints to be who the saints were didn't really change for that entire decade and a half that he was there. So just the entire experiment. The Sean Peyton Denver Broncos experiment and what it looks like is an endless object of fascination for me. All right. Next one for me here. What happens with the Bengals this off season? And there are a couple questions that I want to ask. The biggest question, obviously, is what does a Joe Burr? extension look like. And what does that extension say about the future of the quarterback market?

So Joe Burrow is up for an extension. Justin Herbert is up for an extension. Where does that number land? Are we talking like $55 million a year for these guys? Is it $60 million a year for these guys? Where does that number actually hit? Because I think that will go a long way in determining what the next $12,000. 18 months of the quarterback market and quarterback contracts might look like.

It is also fascinating. The two specific teams that are going to be determining this, the Bengals and the Chargers, this isn't exactly like Jerry Jones, like you used to just throw in cash around. I'm saying these are two of the more frugal ownership groups in the league. And while the salary cap is a salary cap and teams can structure contracts in a lot of different ways to make these things work, cash is cash. And to guarantee contracts, there is an archaic structure within that the NFL still operates under. It's their escrow rule where any amount of future guarantees you have to put into escrow. It's something I'm totally going to get this number exactly wrong, but it's something around like 80%.

that you have to have available. So if you were going to guarantee, so like when the Brown signed to Sean Watson last year to $230 million, guaranteed those years going out, Jimmy Haslam had to put that cash away. This was not just like, you know, I'm going to deal with that in four years and writing that check. No, there are cash considerations that are going on right now.

And the league is in the best financial situation that has been in a very long time. It survived all the pandemic. salary or revenue losses. The salary cap is continuing to climb. The new media deals are kicking in this year. That doesn't take away from the fact that if you were looking at, and granted, they will not give us their books. But we do know from all the Forbes reporting and franchise valuations and then also just years of evidence of who these owners are and how they operate their businesses that the Brown family and the Spanos family are not some of the teams that have been able to spend cash the way that some of the more, the wealthiest owners in the league have done previously.

So it will be very interesting to see if, you know, look, these guys are all very, very rich, right? But if they are in the position to guarantee a five-year contract or, you know, completely reset some of these markets. I mean, it is not in Mike Brown's DNA to do that. But this is a quarterback unlike they have ever had before. their franchise is in a different position that has ever been before in terms of visibility and excitement and they've been doing some things differently around there, right? You know, stadium naming deal and the uniforms and all the social media said. Like, they're in a different place now.

Maybe they're moving forward. But it is something to consider as we're talking about what are these extensions going to look like. And for the Bengals specifically, mentioned it with T. Higgins a little bit earlier. If you make a call about T. Higgins because of all of that cash that the Bengals, are going to have to spend on Joe Burrow is somebody like that available. And there are guys who are hitting free agency for them that were big parts of who they've been, especially on defense over the last couple years. Jermaine Pratt is a free agent.

If you remember after the AFC championship game, him coming off the field in frustration, essentially saying this is my last game, and he knows that. So some of these guys, Jesse Bates, who was on the franchise tag this year, they drafted Daxil in the first round next season. I don't think they have any interest in giving Jesse Bates a long-term deal. Von Bell is a free agent. Von Bell has been central to the flexibility the Bengals have been able to show on defense,

kind of that veteran-centric approach that they've had in the secondary. You know, do they bring him back? Hayden Hurst is a free agent. They've shown an ability to kind of cycle through tight ends to be fine on offense. But, you know, this team, by the end of the 2022 season, really looked like a fully formed contender.

Like as good as any team in the NFL could play with any team in the NFL. And now you may have to start attempting to succeed. sustain that without some of these pieces if you're going to move on from a couple of these guys. And I'm not saying that they can't, but it does start to become a challenge when that starts to hit you. And that is where the Bengals are arriving now as things start to get a little bit more expensive. Yeah. I mean, because right now the gap, you know, in 2022, the gap between them and

the Chiefs was very small, smaller than anybody else. They beat them in the regular season. They were obviously in a very competitive championship game. So does it start getting bigger? And there's been a lot of discussion this week, right, about chiefs, are the chiefs the dynasty, all of that kind of stuff? And one of the most impressive things about what the chiefs have done is they have been able to evolve and win in real time, when you're having to completely reshape your roster or overhaul position groups year after year and your contracts, your salary cap changes, they've been able to navigate that better than basically anybody else that we've seen in recent NFL history.

And now it's the Bengals turn to figure out if they can do that. So it's going to be really interesting. I will say the one, you know, a positive thing. We're talking about all the potential changes that are happening. Incredible staff continuity. They did not lose any of their coordinators, Luana Rumo, who a lot of us think probably should have been gotten a lot more defense head coaching consideration than he did.

He will be back. Brian Callahan is back alongside, you know, Zach Taylor. Taylor and Dan Pitcher is kind of the offensive brain trust there. So they have a lot of continuity. So while there might be some, you know, personnel changes, salary cap changes, you do have the same people in charge, which is going to be really important for that team. The other thing worth mentioning, they have a lot of salary cap space. I mean, they're sitting here looking at like $35 million in cap space.

If they wanted to bring back a bond belt, they have the financial flexibility to do it. I just don't know what their answers are going to be. And they can free up even more. You know, if they moved on from Joe Mixon, they would save about. $7 million against the cap. The name that hasn't come up in the ride receiver trade conversations, there's almost no guaranteed money left on Tyler Boyd's deal. So if you were the Bengals and wanted to keep T. Higgins while he was cheap,

but if you were another team kind of sniffing around for help at wide receiver, Tyler Boyd is 29. He has an $8.4 million base salary this year. So do you want to maybe trade a little bit less and get a guy like Tyler Boyd in your building if you're just looking for some immediate veteran receiver help? Again, just what they do, not saying they can't keep it together, not saying that this is doom and gloom for the Bengals, but what does the Bengals offseason look like and what to me feels like a pretty critical offseason? You're a contender. You're right there.

You have some resources. How do you end up shaping it? And I think, I don't think we need to go make this a whole other category or whatever in terms of questions. But I think for a couple of the other AFC contenders, looking at what Kansas City just did, really, really crucial off seasons. If you're the bills, you're having some pretty deep introspection right now about what went wrong at the end of last season, what you need to do, what defensively, what sort of changes. But, you know, the rest of the league now, and especially the rest of the AFC, is looking at Kansas City and saying they were the best team for most of the season and just won a Super Bowl in a year that maybe they were supposed to be rebuilding, right? That there was supposed to be some questions. They've won, given these salary cap challenges that they have some of these salary cap challenges that they have some of these.

other teams do not. They won with really young players throughout the rest of the rest or what six rookies that were playing consistently throughout the season. What are the rest of the, what does the rest the AFC do to keep up? So that's going to be kind of an offshoot question of the Bengals part. Same. The Chargers are in that conversation to me.

Like how do they reshape their offense? What do they look like under Kell and Moore? Just those teams that we thought would just be around forever in the AFC. You know, think about all those conversations last year about all these quarterbacks are like 26, 27 years old. You know, how long are these teams going to be good? Well, you've got to do what you can to stay good. So what are all of those teams going to do in order to stay in that conversation?

And obviously, we already talked about Baltimore and what that question looks like for that. All right. My next question here or just like off-season story that I'm looking at is I'm almost more interested in the new offense coordinator hires than I am in the new head coaches, kind of outside of Sean Payton, who we already addressed. It's been really fun and not all of them are filled yet. there are still some questions. Some teams are still interviewing, still trying to bring guys in. But Kellynne Moore with the Chargers, Todd Monkin with the Ravens, Mike LaFleore in L.A. with the Rams, kind of getting, you know, after whatever happened, whatever weirdness

happened with the Jets at the end of last season. Nathaniel Hackett with the Jets. There are some recognizable names in some pretty important. Oh, yeah, Bill O'Brien with the Patriots. Like I'm still missing. So Washington has not made their hire yet. Eric B. enemy seems to be the favorite.

He's going to be interviewing there, possibly even today. There are some interesting spots. The Bucks just hired Dave Conallis, right, from Seattle. Dave Canales, who's the quarterback's coach for the Seahawks for a while, essentially has worked under P. Carroll, his entire coaching career in various capacities. So, you know, and that I guess it's not technically higher, but like removing Kellyn Moore from Dallas. What is that structure going to look like? Because these guys are all, with the exception, I guess, of maybe hack it moving into the Jets. I mean, they're all moving into places that have

really good quarterbacks, some good infrastructure, but also clear and obvious paths that they need, ways that they need to take stuff forward based on where those offices were last year. So I want to see which of those offenses is going to take the biggest leap, which of those coordinators because look from these guys one of these guys is going to do awesome and is going to make himself a head coaching candidate because he crushes it with Justin Herbert or something kind of it's a chance for all of these guys to kind of remake themselves as offensive coordinators they're landing in pretty good situations and we'll see if hack it gets Aaron Rogers because I think that's why he hired not because of his play calling if he was hired because of his play calling Robert

Sala and I probably need to have a conversation I think that he can do a better job than he did last year. I think there are times where having a quarterback that you can't really figure out can short circuit you. And I think that probably contributed to what the Broncos look like. Not saying it's Russ's fault, but I think that they just never figured out what the formula was there last year. And I think there's a lot of blame to go around.

The other name that Bobby Sloick as the offensive coordinator for the Texans, like, this is a guy who was a pretty low-ranking member of the staff a couple years ago. he used to work at pro football focus, you know, just one of those guys that kind of worked his way all the way up to being the next guy on the Niners offense. Because it seems like every offseason at this point, Kyle Shanahan is the Will Smith meme where he walks into the room and there's just nothing left in there from Fresh Prince. That seems like be every single off season for the Niners. And that has happened again. So now you have a guy who was like a past game analyst maybe two years ago is now the Texans offensive coordinator that is going to be working with, some young

probably Bryce Young or so one of those guys I mean he was the he was the Niners past game specialist two years ago in 2021 and he was the passing game coordinator for one year and now he is the offensive coordinator for the Texans and there's a chance he's working with Bryce Young or Will Levis or whoever ends up being the quarterback for that team next year

so you've got a guy who is he's 35 he's 35 he's my age he's like a month and a half old he's like two months older than me So he's not a super young guy. But at the same time, still is just green as a coach. You know, you've never seen him call plays. And this is a huge role in a staff and in a place where I think that there is justifiably some excitement after they hired Dermico Ryan.

So there are so many of these examples this year that I think are worth watching, worth paying attention to. I'm old enough that I covered Bob Sloick, not Bobby. This is dad. I, I, so that's where we're, where was he. He, you know where he was because who does Kyle Shanahan hire? He hires guys who worked for or worked for his dad. Bob Sloick was one of Mike Shanahan's defensive coordinators.

So we have, of course, Bobby Sloick and Kyle Shanahan were the sons of Mike Shanahan. It all comes back to Mike Shanahan guys that he knew or coached or drafted or, you know. That's why Christian McCaffrey going to San Francisco was like the most. obvious trade destination last season. He knows my dad. Way back. Yeah. All right.

My last one here. Are there any other big name veterans dealt that aren't wide receivers? You know, guys with, you know, huge salary cap numbers. We saw with Kalomack last year, right? So does that happen again? Somebody like Shaq Leonard, you know, who has been making a ton of money, you know, are the Colts rebuilding a little bit? Is he on the move?

You know, we mentioned Mike Evans. These are guys that are central figures to their organizations. But if you feel like you've got to save some money and they're creeping up into their 30s in Mike Evans' case, do you feel like now is the time? Mike Evans is beloved down there. It'd be hard for me to imagine that moving on from him is a cost-cutting move. But something like that is going to happen. You know, we're going to have a Khalil Mack move or an Amari Cooper trade or one of these things where the team wants to save money, a team is in transition for one reason or another. and that's how they're going to do it.

It might just be DeAndre Hopkins. That might be the obvious answer. Maybe no other ones happen this year. But I have to imagine there might be one or two more. Yeah, I was looking through some, you know, potential trade targets, guys who are older. Cam Jordan is maybe a name. Cam Jordan is making 26 million against the cap this year. You know, Eric Armstead's making 24 million against the cap this year.

Those are the guys. I can't never, I, the Steelers would never ever trade Cam Hayward, but he's also up there. Keenan Allen, Keenan Allen's making $22 million against the cap this year. Again, these are all good players and I don't think teams are just going to trade them for nothing.

But these are the types of things where your gears start to get turning a little bit. And the NFL kind of gets it, right? Like, I just think that the, these sorts of trades a few years ago, it was just like hypothetical. But now, like,

it's kind of the, it's pretty commonplace now. I think with the way that salary crops, is teams are much more willing to invest and to also move on from from guys that they need to. I will just say my other like veteran veteran question that I have that's not quarterback related. There's going to be some really interesting new defensive player contracts and where that market goes with some of the best players in the league, Nick Bosa. What is his contract?

What is his contract going to look like? I think it starts with the three. It's going to be huge. And then, I mean, you mentioned Eric Armstead, but like, are those things related, right? I mean, if they, when they pay Nick Bosa, what is the domino that's going to fall there in terms of the Niners cap? But so Nick Bosa, watching that contract negotiations very, very closely. And then the other guy that I'm very curious about what his deal is going to be is Chris Jones in Kansas City. He is like kind of due for an extension.

He's not like an impending free agent, but he's at the point. where he has outplayed his contract, the one that he got after the 2020 Super Bowl, last time they won a championship. And, you know, he's coming off of a year where he really kind of emerged from Aaron Donald's shadow when Donald didn't play half of the year. I think it really helped some of these other defensive tackles, Dexter Lawrence, Quinn and Williams, and certainly Chris Jones kind of get the shine that they deserved. And this postseason run really illuminated, I think, for the whole, the rest of the NFL

world, just how important and special player Chris Jones is. and will the Chiefs give him a massive extension? Can they afford it? Will they do it? Is he going to hold out for one? Does that mean Frank Clark doesn't come back? The champs have some questions there. I think the Chiefs can make enough cost-cutting moves for Chris Jones, obviously.

But again, if I were a team with all of the salary cap space and a blank slate that I was building my roster with, I'd call. Like, you know, here's whatever. Here's a first round pick. Here's two second round picks. Whatever it ends up looking like, it'd probably take more than that. But I would absolutely make a phone call because of how much he's making in the financial position that chiefs were in. He was my defense player of the year this year.

I think he's pretty central to who the chiefs are. But those are the sorts of things that I think you have to at least sniff around about if you're trying to get better. That's it. I think that's my list. That's all I got. That's all I got, too. Lindsay Jones. We'll come up with more questions, but those are the ones.

Yeah, there's going to be tons of them. But it's the biggest ones. These are the biggest offseason questions that we have. All right. Lindsay Jones, thank you very much for the time. Always great to chat with you. We'll talk soon. It was lovely to see you.

And Marissa behind producing this episode. Always lovely to see Marissa too. And your mom. We have seen your mom today, which is fantastic. I'm at my mom's house. I hope this. I hope your mom makes it on YouTube. They're about to go golfing.

So that they're like walking around getting ready, which what a life they live. I love it. I love it. I'm proud of you, Ma. I really have. You're doing a great job. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much for listening.

If you have not, please a reminder to go check out the first episode of Between the Lines. DeShon Reed's new narrative podcast series about the black experience in the NFL, episode one, touchdown, really the history of race in the league, whether it was player integration. I know Doug Williams' experience is the first black quarterback to play in a Super Bowl, some of the beginnings of the Rooney Rule, how it came about, you know, some of the thoughts that went into it, and then getting. getting into Colin Kaepernick's experience in 2016 and how that shaped kind of a conversation about race and activism among players in the NFL. We're going to have that series coming to you every Tuesday on the Athletic Football Show feed.

So please check it out here over the next month or so. The football GM will be back with Mike Sando and Randy Mueller here very soon. Remember to check out Prospects to Prospects with David Ruegler and Andy Staples. It is now draft season. It's never been a better time to start listening to that show if you have not. For now, that's all we got. Nate and I will be back on Monday. Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon.

This was the Athletic Football Show.