The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Biggest remaining questions heading into the 2025 NFL Draft

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Friends, the 2025 NFL Draft has arrived. All our questions will finally be answered. But, for the time being, we still have questions! How many quarterbacks will go in the first round? Who, if anyone, will make a big move up the board? How will the receiver and corner positions shake out? Will any veteran players get traded? Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen and Dane Brugler ask the questions that still have them flummoxed on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.RundownAll things quarterbackWho makes the move for Ashton Jeanty?Who's going to be the trade-up team?How high do the toolsy pass rushers go?Are both tight ends really gonna go that high?How do the receivers shake out?How does corner shake out?Veteran player tradesDoes the league buy these interior offensive linemen?What do the 49ers want to be on defense?Who's the back-half-of-the-first-round surprise pick?Host: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenWith: Dane BruglerExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Dane on Bluesky: @danebrugler.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Dane on X: @dpbruglerTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Our final show before the 2025 draft. This is a first. We record this from my kitchen table in Chicago, me and Dane and Derek, all just sitting around the table. We're doing our live draft show in Chicago this weekend. That's why those guys are in town. Thursday night, 7.30 p.m. Eastern, live on the Athletic Football Show YouTube channel. Me, Dane, Derek, Bruce Feldman, breaking down every pick of the first round as it happens. Got some fun bells and whistles from the studio this year. Really, really. are excited about what we're going to be bringing to you guys. Hope you can spend Thursday night with us. And then we're going to be back on Friday, 6.30 p.m. Eastern. Me, Dane, Derek, a bunch of guests from the athletic breaking down and analyzing every pick from the second and third round. Very, very excited about that. So please, would love to have you guys come hang out with us, one of my favorite weekends of the year. And we're really, really looking forward to it. For now, though, we're digging into our biggest questions heading into the draft. We've done this the last few years. Just the things that on your mind on draft eve where will ask shen gentie go is there going to be a team that's a

surprise trade up team who has the widest range of outcomes among all of these players where the quarterback's going to go where the giant's going to find one are they going to take shedua sanders in the first round are they going to take jackson dart in the first round where in the first round is that going to happen so a bunch of intrigue heading into a draft class that feels pretty muddled feels pretty flat and i think that that has the potential for some surprises heading into draft night. We dug into all of that with me, Dane and Derek. Let's get to it right now. Well, it is the day before the 2025 NFL draft. We are in Chicago at my kitchen table, which is a new experience for all of us, but I think it feels pretty good. It feels pretty natural.

I'm glad that we're here. And we are doing a show today that we have done, I think each of the last like four or five years, Dan, essentially since we started doing the draft show. And pretty much the way that we celebrate the draft arriving is we do a show about the biggest questions we have heading into that year's no exception. That's what we're doing today. The biggest questions we have heading into a 2025 NFL draft that has a weird amount of intrigue just because it feels like

virtually anything is on the table not only for the first round, but I think a little bit deeper into the draft as well. First off, thanks for inviting us into your home. It's beautiful. Just kind of like all of Chicago. It's my first time here in 20 years and it's been awesome. But it's funny. Draft Eve, you would

think that the closer you get to the draft the more you know. And then draft Eve hits and you're like, all right, I know nothing. Like this, the amount of uncertainty. The amount of uncertainty, the amount of things you hear, like just working on my final mock draft this morning and just texting a million people and the amount of varied responses about what they think teams are going to do, about this guy falling. This guy is not going to fall.

It's fascinating. So this will be an interesting discussion. And then hopefully get us, get us poised for what we can expect for tomorrow night. Derek, this is your first round with us doing draft covers, the draft show. How are you feeling 24 hours out? I didn't think my first show with it would be in your house. You know, we rented out a studio and everything for Thursday and Friday night. So I assumed it would be there, but it's kind of fun that it's here.

I'm very happy to be here. Like I watched the show previously. So to now be a part of it is incredible. But like Dane said, you do all this work up until pretty much the week before the draft of like crystallizing draft needs and like who do we think is going to do what. And then that Monday of draft week hits. And it's like, oh. None of that mattered.

Like I could have started my draft prep three days ago and it probably would have been about the same. All right. So let's get started here. We got about a dozen questions that we want to ask about this class and about this draft as we sit about 24 hours out from the draft and from our live draft show. I'm just going to kick it off with one of the bigger questions

about every single draft day. And that is where are the quarterback's going to go? Right. How many quarterbacks do we get? So I'm going to present this to you right now. We are again about 24 hours out from the first round starting. Over under one and a half quarterbacks go in the first round. round of this draft.

I'll take the over. It's just so rare to see just one, right? And so odds tell us it will be over. Now, who's that going to be? And where? And which team? Exactly. That's a little tougher.

You know, it's fascinating. This is a draft where, so the last 27 drafts, we've had more quarterbacks go in the 21 to 40 range, as opposed to the top 20, just three times. It rarely happens, but it sure seems like that's going to happen this year. And the last time. What year's, that 2011 was like that right

that was the Andy Dalton and Colin Kaepernick or no 2000 14 was the last year that was Maynoselle Bridgewater yep and even Carr Garamolo that's right there was a lot of second round quarterbacks that year and then I think it was 05 and 07 I think with the three that makes sense

so yeah it doesn't happen very often it hasn't happened in over a decade so the fact that we likely get it this year because obviously Cam Ward's going one and then we're on quarterback two watch I used to call it Shador Wals Now I'm calling a quarterback to watch because it's no guarantee that Shador Sanders is the second quarterback drafted.

It is interesting that the betting odds are for where Shador is going to be drafted is 20 and a half, which is the Steelers. Exactly. So in Vegas, they go by what, you know, people like me say. I remember the Will Levis had the best betting odds to go number two time. I remember that six hours we had a few years ago. Yes, exactly. So it is interesting what the Steelers, they're kind of like a pivot point in this draft for the quarterbacks.

Does a quarterback go there? And if not, then are we just waiting for the trade? You know, whether it's the Giants, the Browns, maybe the Saints to trade back into the first round to get either Jackson Dart or Sederer Sanders or whoever, Jalen Milrow. Who knows? It's just a reminder of how there's no consensus at any position. It doesn't matter if we're talking quarterbacks or tackles.

there's no consensus team to team about how they stack these guys. And so if Jackson Darts the second quarterback drafted, that shouldn't surprise anybody. That's just how the draft works. And so I think there's a good chance, you know, let me see the Giants maybe trade up. Maybe say the Vikings are a prime candidate because they only have, what, four picks in this draft that they move back a little bit.

The Rams could be open for business. So somewhere in the 20s, I think we get that second quarterback drafted. Right now you ask me, I'm going to say the Steelers, don't go quarterback. second quarterback is off the board in the 20s. But which T, I would guess the Giants, that'd be my guess right now. And right now I'll say Jackson Dart. Does Shadur get in there?

I don't know. That's fascinating. I'm leaning closer and closer to like, I think Shadur in the top 10 is absolutely not happening. I don't think any other quarterback in the top 10 is happening. Where again, a week ago, I think we were all convinced that somebody could go top 10. The Saints is the team. They're the team that's interesting, right? Like, I don't think the Giants can justify taking a quarterback at three based on the other players that'll be on the

The Saints at 9, I think that's where it becomes interesting. We haven't really talked about the Saints quarterback situation in a post-era car world, which we can in a second. But to me, that's really the only other team that maybe they can justify taking a quarterback in the top 10. And I still don't think that's a likelihood. Because even them, like some of the other quarterback-needy teams, you know, the Giants, they kind of got a win now.

Cleveland a little bit feels like they got a win now. The Saints are more in like, you know, New Regime just started. Do they really feel like they need to press and immediately reach on one of these quarterbacks? That's where I think it kind of gets complicated for them. The Saints are any other team. I guess that, yeah, wait. The Saints operating on the way that they operate.

My response to this Derek Carr situation would be embrace it. Just be bad. Just pay Spencer Rattler for the entire year. Now you're talking about language. Be a team that finishes with one of the three worst records in the league. And then next year, when the quarterbacks are better, you are positioned to draft a quarterback. The idea that because you don't have Derek Carr,

you immediately need to draft a quarterback in the first round of this draft is completely misguided to me. I would never understand that as a thought process. I do not believe they are a Shador team. I think Shador is off the table for them. So would they take Jackson Dard at 9? It's a Saints. That's something they would do.

But will they do it? I'd be surprised. If they love Jackson DART, fine. But if their thought processes, we need to get a quarterback because we no longer have Derek Carr, that to me is just a mistake from the jump, thinking that way. Right. And I don't think that's the way they're looking. I think that, I mean, we know how aggressive they'll be moving around.

Like, they don't trade back. they trade up. And so if they trade it up from 40 or wherever they're picking in the second round to into the 20s, they'll go get a guy. I think that's right on brand for them. See, that would make more sense if they took like Tyler Warren at 9 or whoever it is. And then they go back up to 23, 24, whatever it is to go get their play. That would make more sense to me.

I still don't know if I love any of the quarterbacks in that range. But as an idea, that makes more sense to me than ninth overall for any of these guys. The other quarterback question that I have, and when you kind of touch on this, how far could you do or fall as you fall out of the first round? the team go back into the first round to get him. Is there a surprise quarterback team we're not thinking about or that we haven't talked as much about? Is it the Rams?

Is it the Raiders? Is there a team that's going to do something crazy? I mean, we didn't think the Falcons were going to draft a quarterback in the top 10 last year. And then it ended up happening. So is there some team when, let me look at the back half of the first round. So let's say like the Vikings are on the board at 24. They're on the clock.

They want to trade back. They have one pick in the next like six years. Right. They need more picks. is do we see a team kind of flash up there that we didn't necessarily expect? And the Rams are at 26,

so they could just stay put if they wanted to do that. But a surprise quarterback team that might jump the Giants or jump one of those other teams to get back into the first round and take somebody, that's another one that feels like

it might be lurking a little bit in a way that we're not really talking about so much. I don't know if there is one though. Like I... Like Cleveland, obviously, is a team we've talked about, the Giants we've talked about, the Saints we've talked about,

you know, could... Like, we know, Seattle's kind of flirting with it a little bit. Like Seattle, the Raiders are two teams throughout there too. So that's a possibility, especially with Seattle having those two-toes. You know,

they've got a little bit of ammo to play around with. If there's a guy they really like, you know, that's at least feasible, especially if like what they do it at 18, probably not, but they could move around in the second round. That's certainly on the table,

I would think. Then yeah, the Raiders, you know, whenever you have a first year general manager, a new coach, like, you just have to be open-minded

to all the possibilities and especially with the Raiders picking top six and they're going to get a high player on their board at six and then they can come back and if they love one of these quarterbacks yeah it's something that I wouldn't complete rule out even if it would be a little bit surprising. It would be surprising and I actually don't support it for either team. I wouldn't like to see them do that based on what they've done this off season

but I'm just trying to think who might be the teams that could surprise us that we haven't talked that much about and those two come to mind. The one I'm trying to sell because I just, kind of want to see it. I really want Jaylen Miller on the Rams. I don't know if in the first round, if that's a good idea. He did get invited to the green room.

So it could be on the table. But I've just, I think for such a long time, and I've said this on a show before, McVillet has flirted with the mobile quarterbacks. Like, he clearly wants to see what his offense can be with one of these. And I think giving Milrose... Are you saying John Wolford is that flirtation?

Well, it's a step in the right direction. And he had, man, who was the guy they had to start a game? I think that same year. Perkins maybe. He ran for like 100-something yards in that game. Like this is something McVeigh for a lot of his backups has like flirted with the idea of mobility. And so Milro is no longer flirting.

Like you are going all the way into that style of play. But I think to get him two years to fix some of his mechanics a little bit, see if he can clean up some of the way that he reads the game behind Matthew Stafford, I think that would just be electric. Well, I think that's also why we've seen Jackson Dart kind of connected with the Rams a little bit too because he has a running element to his game. And, you know, there's plenty of. like he's very toolsy, even if he's still improving in a lot of areas.

So, yeah, I think that's something you can't completely rule out too. We were talking about this at dinner the other night. We were talking about players that you maybe don't like or you think are imperfect, but then they get drafted by a certain team and it completely changes the way that you think about them. That was Bo Nix and Bronco, Denver last year for me. If Jackson Dark gets picked by the Rams of 26, I will be in on Jackson Dart. I am so out on Jackson Dart now, but if he gets picked by the Rams of 26, I'd be like, maybe I'm just wrong about this.

Again, I don't think it's going to happen. That was Bo Nix. For me last year. It's like, Bo Nix, I just, I don't know. I don't have a hard time. And then he gets Sean Payton's drafts. I'm like, all right, well, yep, forget everything I said the last six months. He's going to be pretty decent.

Turned out. The other team we have not mentioned outside of the Shador thing is what the Steelers are going to do at quarterback. Are the Steelers in a place where they want to leave this draft with a quarterback based on their current situation? I don't know the answer to them. I don't know if they feel like we don't have a future plan. We don't love the Rogers thing. We're kind of drifting. away from that right now, but we need an answer for the next few years. Is this the time to do that?

For them, it almost feels like it might be as good at time as any. I think the Saints will probably be picking in the top 10 again next year. I don't know that about the Steelers. So how they think about their current and future quarterback plans in the context of this draft, I think is kind of a fascinating question. I think both the Steelers and Rogers are waiting until April 27th to see if they need each other. I think they're both just, if the right guy falls for Pittsburgh, cool, maybe they'll take him. If not, they know they have somebody, you know, waiting on them. And the Kirk Cousins thing is also looming on.

For the team that misses out on a rookie quarterback or decides they don't want to stretch for one that's not in on Rogers, but still wants a stopgap veteran starter, Cousins is one of the dominoes that could fall as early as this weekend. Maybe it's a post-draft thing. Maybe he wants to see exactly where the dust settles, especially coming off the heels of what happened last year. But sometime in the next week or so,

it probably wouldn't be surprising to see a little bit of movement on the Kirk Cousins thing. It certainly seems that Kirk Cousins just, he's clearly scarred from what happened last year. Understandably so. It doesn't not want that to happen again where he is blindsided because he's, he's been in this league a long time. He knows teams are going to say certain things. Things can change. Things will pivot. And he doesn't want to go to a situation where all of a sudden he could get beat out in training camp potentially, you know, depending on the injury and the way he's working back.

So the Steelers are, I believe that they do like Mason Rudolph quite a bit. but is that really the answer you're okay going into the season with as your guy? They know enough of him that it can't be. I would hope not. I would certainly hope not. When you look at the window and the age of the difference-making players on that team, the idea of burning a year on Mason Rudolph when you have T.J. Watt in the last year of his contract, you have Cam Hayward at 35, 36 years old.

Mink is on the wrong side of 30 now. I just don't think you can justify that. I'd be shocked. And if I were a Steelers fan, I would be. apoplectic. I'd be beside myself. Right. Why don't you just bring Russell Wilson back? Yes. Right. Yes. At least you could understand like the Russell Wilson, Justin Field stuff last year. I don't think you could understand doing the Mason Rudolph thing.

Let's get back to some other positions here and some other things that might unfold in the top 10. My next question here, who jumps at Ashton Genty? Like where does he go? What is the landing spot? How high does he go? And the more that I've thought about it and you've been on this. And I think to me, it feels like the right answer. If you're the Jags at five, why wouldn't? you do that. 100% Because everyone in the process has been mocking Mason Graham

to the Jaguars. And Mason Graham is a good player. I like watching Mason Graham. The idea of a player with Mason Graham's profile going fifth overall, people are going to talk about Ashton Genti being a surprise there.

It would also be a surprise if a guy like Mason Graham went fifth overall. 100%. So I just don't, we can talk all about premium positions and about what you're paying him. He'll essentially be like the eighth to tenth

best or highest paid running back in the league immediately. And that's if he hits. So you're not getting a lot of surplus value at all if you do that. We've had this conversation a thousand times over the last decade. But in this draft specifically, I just think that you can justify it. And it also kind of bleeds into a conversation about the new regimes.

Like, we have no idea what this Jags team is going to do. We have no idea what the Raiders are going to do. We have no idea what the Jets are going to do. And I think that's what makes the top 10 even more intriguing because there's so many question marks. And that's when I text around the league to my buddies picking in the top half of round one, not with the Jaguars, to kind of get the same response,

I've got no idea what this new guy's going to do. Like, that's kind of what they all say. And so, and the Jaguars are very buttoned up. There's not a lot coming out. They're not giving us a lot of breadcrumbs about where they're looking.

It's more, okay, and back to what you were saying about Genty, it's not like, if there's a 1A pass rusher and a 1A running back, take the pass rusher, obviously. But we're talking about a 1A running back and then there's a driver

drop off. And then we're, so you're going to take a lesser player just because he plays a different position that is higher in terms of how much he gets paid and, you know, just the hierarchy of how easy it is to find those guys. Like, it just doesn't, I don't know. It doesn't match up. So yes, I'm all for waiting to draft a running back, but the Falcons don't regret drafting Bijon Robinson where they did.

The Lions don't regret drafting Jamir Gibbs where they did. And in this draft at number five overall, it's just, it's not too early to draft and we're running back with the talent of Vash and Genti. So, and you think about ETIN, okay, final year of his deal, he averaged 3.7 yards per carry last year. Yes, part of that's the offensive line. Some of those issues still exist on that offensive line. So I understand the argument that it doesn't matter who's back there.

You know, it's, they need to fix the run game. You could argue, okay, that was part of the old coaching regime too of why the running game wasn't working. That, I agree with it. Exactly. Even if you look at Tampa last year and obviously they had better players, they added players in the off season, they go get Graham Barton. They have arguably the best tackle in the league at this point.

They have guys that were ascending players, Cody Mock in year two. Ben Bredison has a career year. Lucidecki takes a huge step forward. The talent on that team is better than what Jacksonville probably has, but we wouldn't have said that heading into last year. The schematics matter here. And the offensive line coach did not come with him because the bucks didn't let anybody go with him.

But I do think what we saw out of that Tampa team last year and the ecosystem they were able to create in the run game and the screen game. That's where I think you can get there with Gentie behind that offensive line and thinking that it can actually be successful. And I don't think they're going to be as good as the Bucks offensive line. They were incredible last year, but you could sell yourself on some degree of jump from them. Like, Anton Harrison was awesome as a rookie, not so good as a sophomore, but you could absolutely tell me like with Liam Cohen running the offense that he takes a step. Walker Little, his first year being the full-time potential left tackle. Okay, you could totally, I could understand the idea of him playing well.

They tried to throw up the interior of the offensive line, which to me was their biggest issue. so the fact that they went out and got Robert, Robert Hainzzy. Right, not difference makers, but guys who are professionals. Patrick McCarrey, run the offense.

And that's all you need. And so if you insert Genti into the offense, who I don't think it would be surprising if he's one of the best six best running backs in the NFL almost immediately, like, yeah, that could be an awesome run game. And that was the basis of what Cohen was trying to do. It's the basis of what all those offenses that he's come from and worked with

are trying to do. So for me, it's just once you get to the point where you don't have, any more guys in this tier of take them in the top five, the premium position stuff just doesn't matter anymore. Just take the good guy. This draft outside of the quarterbacks, the quarterbacks are a main difference here. But this draft

other than the quarterbacks in the top five reminds me of the 2023 draft, where we had Will Anderson and Jalen Carter were kind of these above everybody else in a different tier of players. Carter fell for obviously reasons that we understand. But other than that, pretty much everybody aside from those guys was

a question mark in the top 10 other than Bichon Robinson. The only reason that Bijon Robinson wouldn't be somebody drafted in the top 10 as the position he plays. Right. And that kind of feels like the same thing we're talking about now. We just don't have three quarterbacks that are going to the top five of this draft. Yeah, no, it's a good point.

I mean, Paris Johnson in that draft was, you know, a good player but wasn't looked at as Penny Sewell, you know, like absolutely needs to be a top seven pick. Tyree Wilson, Devin Witherspoon went in the top 10. Darno Wright. Darno Wright feels more like the tackles in this class than the kind of the tackles in last class. So I do think there are a lot of parallels and like the contours of the contours of the talent pool. And Witherspoon is a great one to bring up because I think with some of the other, you know, guys that are potentially going to go top ten in positions like oppositional stuff or all this jazz. Witherspoon was, one, you actually don't see that many corners going like the top seven. Also, we didn't know if he was even going to play outside. And then in the NFL, he hasn't. Yeah. It's so that was the kind of thing is like, do I want to take a guy like this in the top five? But, you know, obviously Gentie and Wetherston play very different positions. But if you take a guy at five and he turns out to be a guy who can be a pro bowler, it's fine. Like it doesn't matter anymore. So let's say Gentie. falls past five.

And maybe there's a world where a team trades up and gets him before five. That's, we had to watch for that. Do you think that's real? Absolutely. Okay. So let's say, let's play out the hypothetical.

Let's say the Patriots on the clock at four, they know they can wait and get one of the tackles if they trade down into the back half of the top ten. Who do you think is the most likely or teams that we should watch that could jump the jacks to try to go get Ashton Jentie? Can't talk about your bears? Yeah, I don't want to do that. Yeah.

I'm a big believer. the top five you draft players, not positions. And to go get a guy like Ash and Genti, regardless of how you view the running back position, to go get a difference maker, I mean, you package one of those twos, maybe throw

in another sweetener to go from 10 to four, that might be enough for the Patriots. It'll be interesting to see the discount that there's, we have with trades this year. Like obviously, you're going to pay attention to the trade chart, but maybe you are more inclined if you're the Patriots

or one of these other teams to take just a little bit less to go back and get more draft capital and still feel like you're getting, all right, we really like Membu and Banks and Connerly. And so we know we're going to get a tackle at 10. That one, I think that is definitely a,

not something I'm going to say is likely, but you can't rule that one out. I think a more interesting question with the Patriots potential trade is, how far down would they be willing to go? It's not about compensation to me. It's like how far down the board are you willing to go? Because obviously I think a team like,

Denver, they probably want to move up. Obviously, it would cost a lot to get all the way to four. But do the Patriots want to go all the way down to 20 when they might get picked, you know, some of the tackles are going to be off the board, whereas I feel like to me the cut off is probably like Dallas at 12. Like I cannot imagine them going further than that. It's a great question. I think it's going to depend on how many tackles you see in that tier, right?

So how many of those guys are you willing to come away with if you move down? If the answer is Campbell, Membu, Banks, Connerly, if it's like four to five guys, then you're probably willing to move down a little bit further. If there's a cutoff somewhere, let's say it's after banks or something like that, then that changes the calculus if you're the Patriots. Plus, I don't know, once we get down to that range, we're talking about a team having to use next year's first to go up there. And that's where, as much as I love Aschen Gentia,

are we going to trade future ones to go get a running back? Probably not. Exactly. So I think Dallas is probably the good spot where, you know, theoretically you wouldn't have to use a future first to go do. it. But yeah, the Patriots, I think they're open for business. But at the same time, I think they're perfectly fine staying put it for and taking Campbell. The Gentie thing is hard for me to justify. And it's not for the reasons that I think we heard a lot about for the bear specifically.

It's not for the reasons that we heard a lot about throughout the process. I think so many people through the process that it's a deep running back class, it's a deep running back class. You can wait on it. And after watching all of them, to me, Gentie is a different thing than all of the other running backs. And so the idea that you can draft the running back. in the second round is the reason you should pass on Ashton Genti. I'm not buying that. But at the same time, I still think the bear specifically, even with those two-toes, they have too many long-term needs to justify this.

We don't know who the left tackle is going to be after this year. They need safety depth. They need interior defensive line depth. There's so many positions. They need edge depth. There are way too many holes on the second line of the depth chart for me to justify giving away a second round pick, even for somebody that I think is special like Ashton Jentie. if it's Abdul Carter at three, different conversation.

That's something where if the bears were to give up, because there's been smoke today, Pat Leonard from the Daily News tweeted this, and I think a couple other people have noted it. Dan Weeder, who covers the Bears for the Sun-Times, mentioned it. They might be willing to move up because of the drop-off in talent. So if it's Carter, I think that I'd be willing to give up one of those twos.

If it's Genty, I think I'd be a little bit more hesitant about that. That's fair. That makes perfect sense. So the giant, you train up to three in that scenario. Yes. So you go from 10 to three. Interesting. So maybe it's a two and maybe it's something a sweetener from next year.

Yeah, next year is third. You may have to go to a two. Yeah. No, I think for a difference maker like Abdul Carter, yes, I think that makes sense. I think you do that, especially where the bears are. Adding another pass rusher to that mix would kind of feel like, all right, we feel good where we are now. If we got to play the game tomorrow, we feel good. but just get one more.

You know, just the ocean's 11 meme. You know, it's just one more and then drop them in there. Yeah, I like that a lot. All right. Before we get to some of our other questions here, we're going to take a quick break. All right. So let's stick with the trade-up idea, not just for Gentie.

Where are the other potential trade-ups going to happen if there is one? Because I do think that this class specifically, based on everything we've heard, Dane, it is a little bit of a buyer's market in the sense that it might cost a little bit less. So is there a team maybe outside of the top 10, or just in the middle of this draft that's willing to move up a little bit for their guy. Because based on everything that has kind of come out over the last 24 hours or so, it sounds like there are a lot of teams in the top 10 who might be willing to move down.

So who might be willing to move up if there are four or five different options around the top 10 for you to find a trade partner? I will say, first off, one of the just making a lot of texts and calls today, the craziest one was probably the Raiders calling to two to move up to the Browns. maybe to get Travis Hunter there, that would be... Oh, that's Pete Carroll all the way. It's 100% is. That was probably the craziest that I heard. In terms of teams, like maybe outside the top 10,

are the Cowboys going to be aggressive in this draft? I'm really fascinated with the Cowboys are going to do at 12. I think they have their eyes on an offensive player, and are they content sticking at 12 and saying, we feel good one of our guys is going to be there? or do they want to trade into the top 10 and go get them and be aggressive? Who do you think is the most likely partner with that? Is it Carolina?

That's the one that continues to make the most sense to me. Right. And Carolina has done a lot of work on defensive players. They've done a lot of work on Jalen Walker. They've done a lot of work on Walter Nolan, a lot of work on Walter Nolan, maybe more than any of the team. So that would make sense if they're going to trade back a little bit and still feel like they're going to get a front seven place.

playmaker. Outside of that, was there someone that you liked? So Carolina makes the most sense to me. In terms of going up. Trading up, those are a little more difficult. I think Denver is the easy one. Seattle, I don't know who it would be for,

but they very obviously have the ammo. The one that as I'm looking at the board a little bit more, I wonder how antsy the Colts are to win today. That's about to say that. This feels like they all really need this to go very, very well next year and again they're a team almost like seattle i'm not sure who who they would want to be trading up for maybe they feel so strongly about one of these tight ends that they don't want them you know to be off the board they want the right guy um maybe they want to retool the offensive

line i agree with that trading up for a tight end even in a class like this i'm just like man i don't know i don't know i don't love it either but again i could see when you get a little antsy and you feel like you have to win today maybe you just get a little bit hyper fixated on stuff so they're They're the team that I'm looking at where, you know, I don't know if they want to move up to, you know, maybe New Orleans wants to move down a little bit before they take their quarterback, something like that, or obviously Carolina. One of those teams, I could see them trying to jump into the back end of the top 10 for someone. I'm fascinated with these offensive linemen.

I think these offensive linemen are going to go. And that's the range, right? Exactly. That's what right. We could see offensive linemen go 6, 7, 9, 10. We could see 3 going. 11 even. I think it's on the board for the 9-10.

13, 14. And that's why, like, Kelvin Banks, I think his floor is 13, Miami. I don't think he gets past Miami. I think that's fair. I think, like, I wouldn't be shocked if Josh Connerly goes in the top 12. Wouldn't be shocked at all. And then obviously we know Will Campbell and Armand Membu are not locked into the top 10,

but we feel pretty comfortably will go in that top 10 range. But so what if, so what if, Will Campbell at 4 or so the most likely, in your opinion? So in the Gentie at 5 situation, Will Campbell at 4, that's how you probably see it getting slotted out, if that's how it unfolds? Right now, yes. I have yet to hear otherwise that is kind of to get us move to move off of that thought, yeah. That makes sense. So if Campbell goes at 4 and then we have the Raiders needing a tackle, we have the just sitting a tackle. New Orleans did not pick up Trevor Penning's fifth year option today, so they probably need a tackle.

The Bears, you could justify offensive line, Miami, and then Indie, I think Indie makes sense because if they draft, let's say it's a couple of Benz. They can play him at right guard this year, and Braden Smith is a free agent. And so a guard that could eventually become a tackle actually makes a lot of sense for them. And there are a decent amount of those in this class. So we're talking like five or six offensive linemen in the top four times. I wouldn't rule out the Cowboys either.

Yeah. I mean, I think even with Guyton, you know, first round pick last year at left tackle, I wouldn't be surprised if they looked at their options at 12 and maybe the guy they want option A, B, C are gone. and they're left with maybe their top offensive lineman, that would make some sense. Brock Hoffman and both Brock Hoffman and T.J. Basser restrict free agents after this year.

And even those guys shouldn't prevent you from doing anything anyway. But you're going to need to reload no matter what. But if you wanted to draft a guy again that could play guard for you now and then if you want to move on from Terrence Steel after the year, I think that makes perfect sense. And there are a lot of teams in that sort of situation. The bears are arguably in that situation. So there's a lot of potential landing spots for offensive linemen

at the top after the first round for sure. Yeah, and even then, like, Terrence Steel, he hasn't played up to his contract. He's the injury. The injury stuff kind of derailed. It really did. And so you have to start thinking about that. Yeah, the Cowboys, I think they're going to go offense, but there's a lot of different ways on offense they could go.

And then I think we start talking about, like I had one scout tell me he thought Zabel is going to go top 15. And it's just about, okay, like ahead of the Bengals, Seattle. So it's okay, where? is that Miami at 13 is that a spot for Zabel? Arizona is another team that could potentially draft an insurer offensive line at 16. I wouldn't rule that out at all. Right.

And then Booker obviously is. Atlanta just lost their center. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And they're promoting from within. We talk about Booker and how scheme specific he probably is and he just won't be for everybody. But for the right team, he has some grades that are Pro Bowl level grades from some teams. And so if he goes in the top.

half of round one. That's not a surprise. So let's keep moving through positions here because the tackles going in that way, I think makes perfect sense. My next question here is, do teams bet on the toolsy pass rushers as high as we might think? Because you have Michael Williams and Shemar Stewart. Where's Michael on your top 100? 20. He's 20. Okay. But Shammar Stewart's in the top 10, right? Yeah, it was nine. So, and then Sharmar Stewart, Jalen Walker.

So where do those toolsy kind of defensive players, that we maybe have struggled to bucket a little bit, how high do those guys go? And that, to me, is another very intriguing question. Because if you're sitting there at 11, the Niners, to me, are a really interesting team in this way. The Niners, if you're at 11, do you go for one of the defensive tackles

that you feel like is a little bit, not a sure thing, but more of a known quantity, or do you bet on the super high upside with some of the edge guys? And that calculus for a lot of teams, picking like 8 to 20, that's going to be really interesting to watch unfold. I'm kind of stepping on what we're going to talk about later with just widest draft range.

But let's just talk about it here. Because I think it's a lot of these guys. Like, Shamar Stewart, like the Saints, I know how some of their coaches on that defensive staff feel by Shamar Stewart. And they like him quite a bit. Doesn't mean he's going to be the pick.

So, but if he went nine, it wouldn't be a surprise. He could go nine. He'd go 29. Neither of those two outcomes would be surprising. I think same thing with Walter Nolan, who,

you know, I would put in this bucket as a more of a past rush or a guy that's going to create disruption. He could go eight. Like I said, Carolina's done a lot of work on him. He could go eight. He could slip into the 20s. Neither would be surprising. So there's just a wide range on these past, and Mike Green as well, because again, not super clean off the field. And we just don't know exactly how teams are going to use that information and feel good about it. One team's going to feel one way. Another team's going to feel a completely different way. So Mike Green could go theoretically 11 to the nineers or he could slip well into the 20s.

Who know? Maybe he falls to 32 in the Eagles, you know? So I think the past rushers, including Walter Nolan in that mix, are maybe the most, the widest draft ranges. And, you know, McKell Williams, I think there's, he's got a lot of fits, I think, that I don't see him falling out of the, let's say 16, Arizona. I don't see him falling past Arizona. I think there's too much love for him.

If the bears took him at 10, I would be, I'd sleep very easy. 9. 10. and then once you get to 49ers, yeah, a couple of those teams in like the eight or the nine to 16 range. I think there's several fits in there for McKell Williams that you feel like you're getting a high floor run defender and a pass rusher who's just kind of scratching the surface about what he can do. He's 20 years old. So yeah, I think there's definitely enough love out there from McKell Williams that he's going to go somewhere in the top half of round one. These other pass rushers, Mike Green, Shmar Stewart, a little more. volatile where they still go top 12.

And I don't, you could certainly understand how they came to that conclusion. But if they're still available at 25, you know, I don't think I'd be shocked either. That's why I kind of feel like, especially with the way we just talked about the tackles, I do feel like some of these past rushers are going to fall. Because like when I look at maybe it's just the way that I mean edge rusher or do you just mean defense alignment in general? Oh, just the edge rush. Sorry, mostly that actually think that I was just curious.

The defensive tackles I think actually probably will go fairly high. But for me, it's just like when I hear about what I've heard about from some of the offensive tackles. And then when I just watch them, the top five guys in this class to me with Campbell, Membu, Banks, Simmons, Connerly, I look at all those guys and I'm like, assuming the health, obviously, with Simmons,

if they're all healthy, like, those are top 15 picks to me, like, easily. Whereas I look at guys like Shmar Stewart, for as much as I like Mike Lyle Williams, Mike Green having the off field. These are guys where like, but this is the conversation, we've had the entire process. Yeah. Where I think all of the offensive linemen,

We did the show yesterday. I like a lot of them, but they all have limitations. There's a cap. There's a cap on most of their ceilings. I think Simmons and Membu are probably the guys that have the highest potential among that group. That's fair. Everyone else. Yeah.

And I think Banks is, Banks, you could probably make an argument. Again, I think some, he's not, he has short arms, but he does, he's not as long as like an elite offensive tackle prospect. He's 33 and a half. Yes. And so I think, and you see that show up a little bit. So I think for him, it's like, all right, I think he's a good player, but I think they're a limitations. For some of the past rushers, even if they're not known quantities now, those limitations don't really exist in theory. And so I think that discussion with do we want to take something

we think is a little bit safer or do we want to take a home run swing with some of these guys, that discussion in some of these buildings and that range of the draft, it's what I've been thinking about for the last two months as we've been doing this, where are teams going to land in that kind of argument and debate between those two sides? These players that we're talking about at the top, Tyler Warren, Kelvin Banks, even though they are, for lack of a maybe better phrase, like they are low, high floor, low ceiling. You know, like you feel like you know what you're getting with them. Like, I think teams are going to find value in that.

Yeah, especially so too. That's a position you want a guarantee. That's a good point. Floor is worth seeking out to tackle 100%. As opposed to chasing the upside and, you know, I think that teams, and they're clean players in terms of off the field, intangible-wise. like Banks has high character reviews, Tyler Warren,

high character reviews. There is a lot of value in that in terms of just hitting it on the fairway and being comfortable with the player in person you're bringing into your building, your locker room. And they're good players too. I don't want to make it sound like you're,

you know, it's a massive drop-off in terms of play. But, you know, that is a theme with what we're talking about here in terms of guys going maybe a little bit earlier than we've talked about at times in the top 10. Some of these other positions that we don't, typically think is highly drafted spots and the fact that this year's class either has really good players of those positions or a lot of options potentially in the first round two spots that I think

are worth watching are we really going to see two tight ends going to top 15 are the tight ends players that maybe they end up falling to the 20s because we've talked about this are we being pumping them up as top 12 prospects because the class are we're pumping them up as top 12 prospects because that's the type of player they are so is colson level on the board at 22 for the chargers or is he gone by 14 with the Colts. And so how far the tight ends can fall and how high they actually go, I think is going to be a really fun thing to watch tomorrow night. I want to go back to what you said earlier with Gentie.

Because, you know, people talk about, oh, it's a deep running back class. You can skip on him. But when you're talking about a blue chip talent at the top of it, it changes it. Like, that guy doesn't count. So you actually should just take that guy. When I look at the tight ends, I really like Colston Loveland and I really like Tyler Warren. They're not blue chip. It's not like Brock Bowman.

It's not even like Kyle Pitts. And obviously the Pitts thing has like fallen away. but as a rookie he was exactly what you wanted a top five tight end to be whereas these these are more to me guys that you take at you know pick 20 and stuff and so I think that actually is a position where teams might look at and go you know what I can get a Terrence Ferguson in the second round or something like that harold fanning in the third whatever as opposed to having to go and take level and so that that is one of those positions like some position some guy has to fall I do wonder if the

tight ends don't go as high as like we all have them on boards and stuff like that it might still be good players but it's just I don't know if they're going to go that high I'm looking at it right now, we just don't see tight ends typically go this high. I mean, you look at the last, like, 15 years or like the last 10 years, essentially. We got Kyle Pitts and T.J. Hawkinson in the top 10. But other than that, your first round picks are Bowers at 13. And we all thought Bowers was an incredible prospect. He falls to 13.

And then it's guys like O.J. Howard at 19. Noah Fant at 20. Evan Ingram, Dalton, Kincade, Hayden, Hurst, David, and Joku in the 20s. It's the second half of the first round. So the idea of like two tight ends going in the top 15, I don't think we've ever seen that happen since you. you've been doing this. Yeah, no, it's definitely rare.

It's an uncommon thing. And so, yeah, if it does come to fruition, it would be different. An indictment of this class is what it would be. Very much so, exactly. And I don't know, as part of it, like teams looking for their Brock Bowers and like, maybe there's something to that. But I think more so it's just, yeah, looking at this class and saying, all right, looking at who's available for us, how do we get better?

And if teams only have, say, 15 first round grades, and two of them are tight ends, and let's say the Colts, you know, like where they're picking in the first round, like, are you going to take a second round offensive lineman or corner as opposed to a first round tight end on your board? Like, are you going to stay true to your scouting and the board that you built? I think that's some of the conversations that they're having now in the worm as they kind of finalize things. The tight ends when you look at it, because I think the people have mocked Tyler Warren to the Jets everywhere. once in a while as part of the process. I think the tackles, there would be enough of them there, where if I were the Raiders and the Jets, it would be hard for me to pass on those guys.

Based on what my needs are and based on the type of prospects we were talking about. So let's say in this hypothetical, we get to eight with Carolina and both tight ends are still on the board. I don't think Carolina can justify that based on what their needs are and the defensive players who are going to be available. The Saints, I don't think they can justify that based on what they need along the lines and the guys that would be available. Maybe they're one of the teams.

Maybe they're one of the teams that just says, you know what? Like if Tyler Warren's there, if Tyler Warren's there. If Foster Morose, they're starting tight in. So let's say Membu and Will Campbell are off the board by that point. And you, again, the other offensive line process we're talking about, it's like, yeah, we'd rather just take the guy we think is a safe tight end.

I can sort of justify that. Other than that, though, it's like, I guess the bears could take a tight end. Like, again, that to me is, it doesn't really stack up to the other needs that they have and the other players that would be available. What I'm trying to say here is that I think that there could be a scenario where we get to 14 for the Colts and both of the tight ends are still on the board. Like that would not be shocking to me. No.

Based on the other needs that are ahead of them in the first half of the first round. And then it'd be interesting if the Colts do go tight end, which one would they take? Yeah. Where I think Loveland's a little more Chris Ballard. But Tyler Warren's a little more like ready to go and you feel like, you know, he's just more NFL ready to help your current situation. So that would be interesting. Derek, you're curious about where the receivers are ultimately going to shake out here.

after Tetaroa Macmillan, like, who goes? Is it Matthew Golden at 12 if McMillan's off the board? If McMillan is the pick for Dallas at 12, what happens to the rest of the receivers? This is similar to me. Again, we're talking about the 2023 class. I think McMillan is probably, I was going to say, I think McMillan's

in a different class of players than those guys. I like him, I don't love him. I think he is, but it's just like there also is no class above him. Like, there is a class above him that nobody is in. Yes. And so, like, and Travis Hunter, I mean, it's not part of this conversation. He's just a different sort of thing.

But other than that, it does remind me a little bit of the 20-3 group. Jackson-Swick-G-Bah, Zayflowers, Quinn and Jansson, they all come off the board in the 20s. So it feels like that probably could be the way this shakes out based on the types of players we're talking about, Derek. But I think there are enough teams in the top 20 who might need a receiver where maybe those guys come off the board a little bit earlier. But I really don't know. Like if Matthew Golden gets into the 20s, would it surprise you? Not really. No, right?

I'd say it's probably more likely on this. I mean, because when you look at the top 20, how many teams? Especially if he gets past Dallas, right? Like, if he gets past there, then it's just like, it's kind of just Arizona. Arizona, I mean, the bucks have flirted with him a little bit, but that's still be surprising with all their defensive needs.

I think the Broncos still need a receiver. Yes. I still think the Broncos need another receiver. 100%. The Cowboys are interesting at 12. If this is my belief, and maybe I'll be wrong, if McMillan's on the board, I don't think he's on the board at their 10.

but if he were to get past the Cowboys, then it becomes really interesting. Then we really get like 2023, where we don't have receivers off the board until we get to the 20s, and then maybe it's boom, boom, Broncos, Steelers, Packers, you know, like... I can't wait for Atlanta to draft the receiver

in the first job. I just, I cannot wait. I mean, they've done crazier things to see last year, so... Ray Ray MacLeod played a bunch of staffs for that team last year. He's a starter right now, right? They're an 11 personnel team, and he is their third receiver.

Like, it would be hilarious if they did that with some of the past pressures on the board. But I don't think it's totally unjustifiable. Him and Drake London would be the most just go up and get the ball, like grouping that we've had in a very long time. It's in Seattle also, I think, is a team that probably needs a receiver. There are likely going to be enough interior offensive alignment on the board at that point where... And they have enough picks that they can throw around the cards. And Seahawks fans might lose their minds if they pass on some of those guys. But if they took Matthew Golden there and then they waited for...

for like the Arizona guard in the second round or some of those other interior offensive alignment. I think that, I think you can make an argument for that being a reasonable path for the Seahawks. First round is all about finding impact guys. And so if you come to the conclusion that the receiver is going to make a bigger impact for you

than the guard, then by all means, go that direction. And this is a receiver class that, I don't, it's not like the day two, there's guys on day two that you can get excited about, but it's like a group of five or six names.

We're not talking about double-digit names, in my opinion, on day two, that you're really getting jacked up about passing on one in the first round. So, yeah, it just comes down to how you feel about the player. I mean, there are teams where Make a Bucca's wide receiver 2 on their board. You know, so if a Bucca is the second receiver drafted and whether he goes, let's just say McMillan goes 12 to the Cowboys and say, you know, the Cardinals or the Seahawks, like if they win a Bucca, I don't think that'd be crazy. That's certainly possible.

Monty Austin for it, likes draft to Ohio State guys in the first round. So, you know, can't roll that one out. And then, you know, there are some teams that are Luther Burden teams. How does he factor into it? Like, this isn't a McMillan, golden, Ibuka, Burden.

There's so many differing stacks of receivers from team to team, just like every position. We talked about this. I mean, you have burden and Abuka, like, right next to each other. Yeah. And they're polar opposites.

How you see those players based on what you need, like, for me, I think a team, and we played this out when we did our on-the-clock shows, if you're Denver at 20, I think burden for them is very interesting from a skill-set perspective. I'm not sure Sean Payton would love the details, but from a skill set perspective, like, what does this offense need? Is somebody you can just spit the ball out to and have him make plays? That's interesting to me in a way that, like, with a Buka, it's like, eh, that wouldn't

move the needle for me. Like that pick for the Broncos, I wouldn't have a reaction. If the Broncos pick Luther Burden at 20, I'd be like, all right, we're cooking now. That's something I could talk to myself into. Yeah, this could be something. Yeah, and that's a good way to think about it. And that's, you know, you think about the chargers. And I don't dislike it, Bucca.

That's not, that's not what the statement is. You know, there's the stylistic differences in the players. Yeah, and I think there's a lot of teams in the 20s, you know, these playoff teams where you could make that argument where Burden's like, hmm, okay. And then Abuka, it's kind of like, all right, yeah, you know, he's a pro receiver, ready to step in and be a guy. So, yeah, these receivers are fascinating because I,

We might not have one in the top 10. We might only have one in the top 20. And obviously that's a lot different than we had last year. And then we have a few in the 20s. But yeah, I'm very interested to see where these receivers go. Could we have more tight ends in the top 20 than receivers? Yeah, certainly possible. With Ibuga specifically, like, if you went to the Chargers at 22, I'd be like, great.

I just need like a human being who can play receiver on the Los Angeles Chargers. I actually love that. I actually kind of think McConkey is better as an outside player. And I do think they're both flexible enough that either one of them go inside outs. And I think Igbuka kind of solves two problems for them. Well, actually like three.

One, I think you can put McConkey outside a little bit more. And then McConkey can be a little bit more of your vertical guy, which I think he is really, really good at. Ibuka can do some of the, you know, we just want to throw a screen to a guy and he can get a six tough yards. Like, I think he's really good at that. And then Igbuka kicks ass in the run game. And that I think is what they want.

Like that's obviously more of like a cherry top thing, but you could see why they would want a player like that. Book in the run game is funny to me because I think he's fine. I just think he cared about run blocking so much more than any of the other receivers in the class that when you stack them all up one after the

other, it was almost jarring to watch someone who even tried to block anybody. But that's something that coaches, NFL coaches care about. And I cared about it. When I watched it, it was like, oh, this is nice. This is refreshing. He cares, exactly. And that was one of the knocks on Brian Thomas last year. I'm not saying that's why he

fell where he did, but that was something that came up when you talked about Brian Thomas with teams is like, yeah, I wish he, you know, when the ball wasn't going to him, I wish he cared a little bit more. And so, that's how I feel about McBowen. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, sometimes that's just kind of how they're coached. It's like, hey, don't stress yourself out, save your juice and just foot off the pedal. Like they're kind of coached that way now in high school and college in those offenses where, you know, it's just up tempo and you don't want to wear these guys out. So that's part of the equation as well. But like Bucca is like we've said, the old. ultimate pro, you know, you know what you're getting with him,

wrapped in transparent wrapping paper. And that's, that has value for teams picking in the back half around one. The mirror image of the receiver conversation is what might happen with the corners on the other side of the ball. Because we know where Travis Hunter is going to go. No. After that, shrug? This is where I'm, like, I'm most interested.

I'm super interested in how this falls because Will Johnson, I think, obviously coming into the season, then if you look at his best tape, it's like, okay, that's a top 12 player. But with some of the medicals and like it seems like teams are iffy on him. Like he's a guy who could fall to 27 at this point. I don't think it would be that crazy. Jedi Baron is a tough one because I don't think he's like an, you know, a surefire playing outside type of corner. He's a little bit more of like a slot guy.

Sometimes he can play safety. He's a little bit on the smaller side. So is that really a guy teams actually want to take in the top 12? And then after that you get this grab bag of the Trey Amos, AZ Thompson Thomas, um, Chivonne Ravel, like our team's going to look a little bit past the medical and be like,

okay, this is the guy we want to take in the top 20. Like, I really think you could show me eight different orders of the cornerbacks coming off the board after Travis Hunter and any of them I could probably agree to. Maxwell Harrison. He'll be here. And Harrison as well, yeah.

Yeah. That's, I've been trying to prepare people for the Will Johnson stuff. I've been saying for a while now, like, hey, like, not going to, yeah, he's not going to run a 40. The medicals are an issue. Like, don't be surprised. You know, if he's on the board when the Packers pick. Like, would Goody really draft a corner without a 40-year dash?

I don't know. But it's possible he could be there. But there are several teams that could use a corner that will be have to make a decision. You think about the dolphins, you know, the Jalen Ramsey stuff. Yep. The dolphins at 13 are a possibility. But that's what it's so interesting to me. They're a possibility.

But they have like three needs you could argue are bigger than corner. And there are a lot of teams like that in that range of the draft. Cardinals are a possibility for corner. Same deal. Cinti. Tampa, same deal. Yeah. Yeah.

Certainly there are a lot of teams that could go in that direction. That's why if we have just Travis Hunter go in the top 20 a month, corners, I don't, that's certainly a plausible scenario. I think that's right. Because if you look at the teams picking from like 10 to 20, Dallas needs a corner, but they probably need a receiver more. The dolphins need a corner. They probably need an interior offensive lineman and an interior defensive lineman more than they need a corner. The Colts, eh, we'll see what happens with Juju Brent. They signed Chavaris Ward and Free Agency. Atlanta needs a corner, but they probably need a pass rusher more than

they need a corner. The Cardinals need a corner. They probably need a pass rusher and interior offensive lineman more than they need a corner. At least the Cardinals have one. One pass rusher. Atlanta doesn't have any. But as you keep going down here, the bucks, right? The bucks at 19. They need a corner. They probably need a pass rusher more than they need a corner. Right.

So there's a lot of teams in that range where I think that that's kind of how the conversation feels to me. Packers same way. They could use a corner, but they could probably use a pass rusher somewhere along the way as much or more than they need a corner. And who's the second corner drafted? Who's the third corner? Like I think that if Maxwell Harrison's the second corner drafted,

I think it'd be a shock for a lot of people, but I kind of get it. Again, if you have questions about Will Johnson and speed and the injuries, if you think Jedi Barron's strictly a nickel, then maybe you shift to Maxwell Harrison and his 4-2 speed, and that's the next guy off the board for whoever it could be. So you mentioned the Cowboys, and that's an interesting,

say McMillan's off the board at 9 to the Saints, would you know because digs who knows when we see him back on the field Duran Bland's a solid player but they lose Jordan Lewis Free agent after the sheer blend exactly which they're gonna figure out I would think they're gonna figure that out but it's the Cowboys who knows So franchise tag inevitability yeah right Well and they gotta figure Mike out too so I think with them Will Johnson at 12 is that a possibility like corner is definitely a direction they could go

I just it gets a little bit murky about is there one there that's worth it for them. I think what's interesting, too, is my order of the corners is, like, very different that I think a lot of... What is it? I would take Amoslet like 11.

I think he is unbelievably good. Like, he was the guy I just watched like two drives up and he just moves like a Pro Bowl corner whereas I watch a guy like Harrison and I'm just like, he's a little bit undersized. I don't really love some of that.

How do you feel about Will Johnson? Like, let's say, let's play this out and let's say Will Johnson's healthy. And let's say he, if he ran, it would be like a four or five flat. And you combine that. that with the tape, where would you land on Will Johnson? I think he's pretty good.

I think you see some of like the gambling traits that you want from like a good zone corner. Like he's got quick feet. His eyes are good. He's very decisive like baiting the quarterback and all that stuff. What about the bucks? Let me, why don't you try that on for me? I mean, that's actually like the perfect style of quarterback they need because Todd Bulls is going to throw a bunch of stuff and let his cornerbacks jump.

I think my thing with that is I would much rather have A. Z. Thomas from Florida State. Not like over him directly, but 20 picks later. I would much rather have him. because I think they probably run about the same. And I think Thomas is like a very technically sound player. And I think he's a little bit more put together as a man coverage guy than Will Johnson is right. Yeah, that 4-5-8 hurt. It hurts, but I'm not sure Will Johnson would run that much faster.

I know. That's the question more. I mean, and that's one guy just didn't run. The other guy did. Right. So if Thomas just didn't run, like maybe he's, you know, 10 spots higher on board. Talk about J-1 Ramsey for the Dolphins. That's one of my other questions here.

Do we see any veteran player trades? Do we see them on draft weekend? Does Jay-O and Ramsey get traded? Kirk Cousins probably going to wait, we mentioned. Does J. Jr. Alexander get traded? Mark Andrews. George Pickens. Who is the veteran that potentially gets dealt this weekend?

Is there a surprise that we're not thinking about? And how does that potentially shake up some of these needs that we're talking about if it happens on the first two nights of the draft? Yeah, it all depends on the first round plays out, right? If the Steelers draft Golden at, you know, 21, all right, then we can be on Pickens watch. When do they trade them to the Cowboys? You know, like, how does that play out? You know, so like I think that's the first round will tell us a lot about who's going to be dealt. What we could potentially see, you know, if, if Genti does go to the Jaguars,

could ETN kind of like the DeAndre Swift situation when Gibbs was drafted? You know, they shipped off Swift for, what, a fourth round pick to the Eagles? Yeah. You know, could we see ETN go for a day three pick, you know, if that comes to fruition. So there's, we're definitely going to see a little bit of movement, but I don't know. Any surprises for you? I think for me the player I least expect to be on their team by the end of draft weekend is Mark Andrews.

I would just be interesting. With as well as Isaiah likely has played, Andrews is getting up there. He's also interesting. I said they're both for you. He just feels like a player that they're ready to pay, like to play it pay. And this is a team that like they'll do this with players

where it'll be like this three year development arc and then they finally get to where they want them to be. And it's like, all right, we think you're a starting now and we'll pay you. And so I kind of think they're leaning that way in the tight end room. whereas Andrews, I think if you're the Colts, if you're the Broncos,

like that's still a guy that I think if you can trade for him for a reasonable amount, he does a lot for your team. So I was thinking about this today. I was going through just building the rundowns for tomorrow and like stuff for tomorrow and just putting together team needs and expiring contracts for every team. And you look at the Ravens, Mark Andrews, Isaiah Likeley and Charlie Kohler, all three are free agents after the year. And so now my mind starts spinning and I'm sitting there being like, all right, let's say

the Cardinals want to move. moved down and Colston Loveland is a raven. Like the Ravens needing a tight end actually if you look at the structure of like the roster and when guys are going to be free agents, it's not that crazy. No? For them to

potentially draft one and then maybe trade like a Mark Andrews. I don't think it's like out of the realm of possibility. I kind of just hate it for Mark Andrews. That is final play in a Baltimore. Yeah, exactly. Like that just that's killer. But no, I like I like it. I like the line of thinking there.

I mean, Baltimore is a team that they will think outside the box. And they're picking so late, they're at 27. So which direction could they move around a bit? Could they just wait? I mean, Baltimore is such a good drafting team that. Let's say, oh, I guess I was going to say, let's say the Steelers want to move down, right, at 21 because you jump the chargers. Yeah. Well, maybe that doesn't.

Right. They have traded before, though. They have, yeah. They have done that before. But that's one where, like, I was going to say that makes sense, but within the division, maybe it makes a little bit less sense. The one for me, like the guy I think is just least likely to be on his team. If it's not this weekend, then a month from now is Pickens. Like I just, I can't imagine him playing for the Steelers this year.

And I can't imagine a team saying, you know what? It might work for us. It has worked for anybody else, but it might work for us. He is the most it might work for us player on the block by a million. The fact that he's in a contract year and like, what's the return? A fourth? Yeah, I think that's about what it is. And again, if you're a team, let's throw out a hypothetical.

If you're a Green Bay. and you think what is the best pathway for us to get like a big time vertical player. Right. Him for a fourth round pick, you could absolutely get there if you were trying to rationalize it. The idea of the Packers bringing in another receiver who you don't know what you're going to get on a given down, I think I would start to lose my mind. But at the same time, like you don't know what you're getting from the quarterback on a given down in terms of play extension in terms of what he's trying to do. And a guy he can just throw the ball up to, they don't have one of those guys on the roster right now. I don't think I would do it.

I'm not sure I would invite that element into my building. But from a skill set perspective, I think that it actually is a little bit more fun than you're making it out to be. That would be interesting. Especially if the Steelers do draft a receiver in the first round, it's kind of like, all right, well, there goes some leverage because you know he's available.

And yeah, it's, I couldn't do it either, but it is interesting to talk about. And, you know, teams invite far worse into their building. so, you know, I think there'd be a few teams willing to do it. We're going to take one more quick break here, and they're going to get back with a few more questions before we get out of here. All right, we got three more here. Next one, Derek, you wanted to talk about this.

Does the league actually like any of the interior offensive linemen that we have pegged to potentially go in the backout of the first round? I'm talking about Tyler Booker, Grace Abel, Donovan Jackson. These are all guys that are on the clock series. Ben Soak took Donovan Jackson at 17 to the Bengals. Gray's Able has been mocked to the Seahawks a million different times in this. Tyler Booker has been somebody that could go in the top half of the first round.

So do teams actually like these guys that much? I think is a worthwhile question because of some of the question marks associated with those players. It's just a weird interior class. Like Tyler Booker, I think when you watch him on film, you can see some of the power. And he's obviously, he's a young player. He's a very smart player. And so I could see teams buying him.

I could also see teams being like, if we're his own team, we don't really love him. And also, you know, he tested very, very poor. typically that caliber of athlete doesn't go very high in the draft. So he can be up in the air. Zabel, I know, you know, he kind of dominated the lower level of school, but he's an older guy who's coming from a small school and he's natively a tackle. Like, this is not a guy that we've seen play the interior before. And that hasn't stopped teams before.

You know, Graham Barton was mostly a tackle at Duke and then obviously transitioned to center and he was awesome. So it can happen, but I think it does invite volatility in terms of where he's going to go. And then Donovan Jackson, sure, a team could get, you know, a little bit desperate in the top 20 and say we just need a guard and this is a guy who plays guard, we're going to take him. This also is to me a guy who profiles is more of a guy you take in the second round. So I don't think he's a guarantee to go in the first round.

I just think I almost wouldn't be surprised if the first, you know, quote, guard off the board is one of the first three tackles that a team just decides is going to be a guard. Like maybe it's Kelvin Banks or something. I just don't, I just don't feel confident that any of these true interior guys are like surefire top 20 picks. Zabel's the only one that I think, like I kind of push back a little bit just because he dominated the senior bowl like seeing him at garden center just don't and it wasn't

like he was like oh he's kind of good he dominated he was the best player there and I think that really helps the evaluation for teams um Booker absolutely even though like I like I have him above zabel and my own personal rankings just because the tape is that good he he's just not going to be for everybody plain and simple we don't see those testing scores uh it's just not going to be a fit for some of these teams um and then Donovan jackson I'm with you I I don't see first round tape at guard for donovan jackson at tackle i think it's like okay like he's doing a little bit better you see the versatility like you can i think talk yourself into him but i just show me the first round guard tape i just don't see it personally um and i think there's that's how a lot of

teams view donovan jackson they view him more as a day two player than day one now maybe he would sneak into the first round but i don't think by any means it's uh i think there's a better chance he goes day two than day one um but yeah i think what you're saying is I think what a lot of teams are kind of talking about is we could use an interior Seattle, for example. We could use an interior player. If Zabel's off the board, does Booker fit us not really? You know, like how do we, Donovan Jackson, we don't view as that type of player.

So what's our going to be our plan B in round two? And that moment, I think there are a lot of other positions you can get there with. It opens the board a little bit. Receiver of Golden's there, etc. I think that makes a lot of sense for that range of the draft. I was going to ask you, who would you be more surprised being on the board of 25, Zabel or Booker? and I think the answer is pretty clearly is able.

Yes, I'd be shocked, yeah. If he gets past, you have to get past Seattle, you have to get past Minnesota. Like, I just think there are too many teams to get by. But, yeah, we'll see. Booker and Derek Harmon to me are the two guys that when they're on the board at like 26 through 28 for the Ravens and the Lions,

and they draft those players, we're just going to be like, ah, how do we let this happen? Oh, no. Harmon is an injury stuff. They interest stuff, yes. But even still. Even still, if he falls into the mid-20s and gets drafted about one of those teams, and then it's a good player immediately,

it's going to be the least surprising thing that happens in this process for me. Like, Harmon's going to go to the Steelers at 21 and be the next Cameron Hayward. It's going to be carbon copy. Yes, exactly. Like, it's going to happen. And we'll look back and say, because Hayward went in the late first round. Yeah. You know, it was kind of the same type of team.

Yeah. And Cam Jordan, we're both. Yeah. Picked in the 20s out you're right. Yeah. It feels like 30 years ago now. It was. It feels like it.

But yeah, no, I think you're exactly right. I'm looking at it right now. I just want to get that right. So Cam Jordan went at 24 and Cam Hayward went to 31. And that. in that draft. James Carpenter, one pick after Cam Doron,

multiple James Carpenter mentions on the athletic football show. I'll never forget Sabin's reaction live when Carpenter was drafted, he gave a, wow. So that took Sabin by surprise. That's how you know you made the right pick. One team specific question you had, Derek,

is that you want to know after this draft what the Niners want to be on defense. And I think what they do at 11 will potentially tell, us a lot about what they're trying to put together on that side of the ball. They could go any number, because if we think of what their defense was, you know, four years ago, where it was, okay, you had DJ Jones who was stuffing, you know, the run up the middle.

You had obviously Nick Bosa and then you had just a cavalry of guys across from him who were really good secondary and entered down pass rushers. Then obviously you had Fred Warner, but you also had a Zs O'Sher, and Dre Greenlake. Like your front just had this kick-ass attitude to it. Now it's kind of just like Nick Bosa and a bunch of guys. And then obviously you still have Fred Warner. And the 20-22 Browns. That's what it is.

Right. And so I think because they're out 11 and not that many of the front guys are going to be off the board, they could go in so many directions. Do they want to do the, you know, kind of bigger, longer upside guys with Shmar Stewart or Mikel Williams? Like, do they want to go that direction? Do they just see a speed rusher in Mike Green and go, all right, he's going to get to the quarterback and we're just going to go get him? Do they want to go interior, which again brings up different stuff?

Do they want, you know, the size of Kenneth Grant or just the pure run stopping of Derek Harmon? or do they go, ah, Walter Nolan is really flashing. He's going to get to the quarterback. To me, if he's there at 11, that's the one that makes the most sense to me. Nolan? I can't get there, but it does feel like a very Robert Saul and Niners. I wouldn't do that. But stylistically, when you watch him play,

and if you're going to be a one-gapping team where it's just like, hey, you go. I'm going to let you loose. That's the guy based, in part because of how he was used at Ole Miss. That's the one that is the easiest for me to picture. I can see him in the uniform now. Not to spoil my final mock, but I've gotten Nolan going 11 to the 49ers. There you go.

Yeah. I think that's something that could make sense for the way they want to play, for the way they want to get better on the defensive line. That one fits like a glove. Yeah, the Niners at 11 is, to me, one of the more fascinating teams in that range. And again, positionally, I think we kind of know where they might be zeroing in, but which direction they go, I think is a comment on what they want to be. But again, it's a comment on the discussion we've been having for the last month about the tackles versus the edges. and which teams prefer because of how fully cooked the players that those positions are. And that's the other small thing with it.

Like, do they even take defense? I think it's on the board for them to take an offensive lineman. Like that could totally happen too. So they shouldn't. They need to take a defender. They have no guys on the front seven. But maybe they love, you know, Connerly or whatever. I wouldn't either.

I wouldn't hate it. I mean, again, just as if one of those guys, if you wanted to play him at left guard and then move on, I believe the right guy, the right tackle whose name is escaping me right now. Yes, Colt McEvitts is a free agent after this year as well. And obviously, Trent Williams is my age. And so trying to plan for a contingency there is probably worth it. Last question here, and this brings me back to, I was going to say my favorite moment of the draft shows that we've done.

That's actually a pretty stiff competition because the Justin Fields moment was, that kicked it all off, which was very fun in the moment and then has aged horribly. The Cole Strange first round selection, we were in Vegas. That was what I was going to say. It was probably my favorite draft moment. but then Pennix last year was definitely in the conversation. But the Coal Strange. Jamir Gibbs was one of my favorites too.

You love Jamir Gibbs. Oh, that's good, yeah. But I think the Coal Strange thing is on the podium. Yeah. So my question to you is, who do we think is the most likely or potential Cole Strange candidates for this year, the guy who could go in the first round that we are just not seeing coming? So, like, I won't include, like, Jalen Milrow in this because that's...

Right, the quarterbacks are kind of cheating. Yeah. Yeah. And even like like I thought like Trayvon Henderson, but that's someone we've talked about as, you know, it wouldn't be crazy if the chiefs took him or if, you know, he snuck in there. I don't think it'd be, it wouldn't be one of those moments. We talked about this the other night. That's my like sneaky draft take is that I think Trayvon Henderson is the second running back taken. And I think that's, even if just gets into the first round, I don't think that'd be crazy. Just team looking to capture lightning in a bottle. So I'll, this is a guy that I don't see in first round mocks, even though like he's still probably a top 50 guy. So it's not like a. not a true Cole strange moment, but Jaden Higgins, the Iowa State receiver,

who I don't even think it's the best Iowa State receiver in the draft. I still like Higgins. I'm not sure any of us do. Yes, but yeah, I think we're all in agreement. Like, we all really like Jalen Knoll.

But with Higgins, like you think about these receivers we're talking about with Golden and Ibuka, and like they're all kind of like six foot, 200 pounds. Like they're, they don't have size where Higgins is built more like the X that you're looking for.

The big, good size athlete who, ran in the four fours. He's six four, two hundred and fifteen pounds. There's, you feel like he's a good athlete for that size, can win on the outside, has ball skills, questions about physicality and all of that. But I think that for teams looking for that style of receiver, that type of guy, defits that mold, I wouldn't be completely shocked if Higgins maybe crashed the first round party for the right fit.

That wouldn't surprise me either. I would not like it. No. That would be one where a team would do it. And I'd be like, this is sizeism, run amok. This is you looking at the tail of the tape and talking yourself into somebody in a way that I just can't support. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm looking like my top, gosh, how many receivers here?

My top 23 receivers, there's only two that are over 6'4. T-Mac and Higgins. So it's like, okay, if that's what we want, if we are looking for size, if we're looking for speed. And a guy that was productive consistently, the last two years. And he was a basketball player. most of his life. And so you feel like, okay, he shifted to football later in high school, dominated FC. And they dominate, but he played well at FCS. Then he goes to Big 12 the last two years and played at a high level. We feel like we're catching this guy on the ascent. I could understand how

someone could come to that conclusion, even if I wouldn't love the idea of making that pick. I'm going through other guys here and then no one really jumps. I had one. There was, I wonder if with Nick Scowarton, that was exactly the name I was about to bring up. I was just looking at him on the Beast. That was exactly the name. I don't know about Nick Scowarton. Does a team think that what happened with him last year with adding a bunch of weight that he probably didn't need to? Is there a team that just goes, you know what? What he did at his old school was actually really good.

And a first round pick, that's the guy that we believe that he can be, we're going to take him in the first round. He's the one where I just wonder if this was just kind of a bad year for him. And teams just don't believe that that's who he is. He's young. He's 20 years old. One of the youngest players in the draft. You know, I think he's, like, I like his floor better than his ceiling. Yeah, I think that's fair.

You know, we talked that way about a lot of these guys. So it would make sense. Yeah, that was the one name as I was scrolling through. I was like, how about Nick Scowarton? And you look at the bottom of the first, you know, you think of the lions, the commanders. Eagles. Exactly. Oh, that feels so Eagles.

They'll be in the sphere. Renner picked him as the 32nd pick when we were doing on the clock. And as soon as he said it, I was like, yep, that would make sense to me. And so Scowerton getting in there, that was the one name that I think just scrolling through that actually does jump out. Uh, Trey Harris would feel like Liget last year. God damn. That was the other one that I was thinking about too. But because a league at last year was like, okay, you know, he's probably 60th on the consensus board, something like that.

But you look at the size of the speed and you're like, all right, somebody's going to take the chance. That's kind of the thing. So I think that's the other thing is he's 6-2. You look at the production. I kind of understand what he is, even if it's a little bit limited. That's another one where I think a team could be like, you know what? the ceiling on this guy in terms of what he is based on some of the other players

we could draft in this spot, I would rather just take this swing. So Harrison Scoward are probably the two guys that I would have thrown out is like, all right, even after watching two games of them, I think that the flashes are good enough that they're the type of player that a team could just be like,

we're going to be the one. Yeah. All right. That's all we got. Those are our final questions before the 2025 draft. If you guys are listening to this on Thursday morning, tonight, Thursday,

live 7.30 p.m. Eastern, me, Dane, Derek, Bruce Feldman, breaking down every single pick of the first round doing it live from a studio in Chicago. Very, very excited. We'd love if you guys joined us. We're not tipping picks. We're watching the draft with you guys. So I feel like it's a perfect watch-along experience. We love doing it. We'd love if you guys came and hung out with us. We'll be back on Friday night, 6.30 p.m. Eastern. Same sort of deal. Me, Derek, Dane. A bunch of guests from the athletic newsroom breaking down every pick from rounds two and three.

Love if you guys came and spent the weekend with us. We're looking forward to it. Hope you are too. That's all we got for now. We'll be back tomorrow. Talk to you guys soon.