The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Black Monday fallout: Four teams turn over a new coaching leaf

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

Another Black Monday has hit the NFL, and with it came plenty of expected news. Raheem Morris out in Atlanta. Pete Carroll out in Las Vegas. Jonathan Gannon out in Arizona. It also saw the firing in Cleveland of two-time Coach of the Year Kevin Stefanski, who might just be a victim of circumstance more than anything else. Six teams are now on the coaching carousel, which we can expect to spin for most of the next month. Robert Mays and Derrik Klassen dive into all the Black Monday news on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)3:14 Falcons fire Raheem Morris and Terry Fontenot16:45 Browns fire Kevin Stefanski, retain Andrew Berry30:17 Raiders fire Pete Carroll36:21 Cardinals fire Jonathan Gannon47:14 Titans update49:36 Giants update52:26 Teams not making any changesConnect with The Athletic Football ShowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowPodcasts: https://podfollow.com/the-athletic-football-show/viewX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Robert MaysCo-Host: Derrik KlassenExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Unfortunately, it is Black Monday in the NFL, and we have a handful of firings to dig through. Rahim Morris and Terry Fano both let go last night. We did not hit that on the recap show because we knew we were doing it today. Started off with that.

The Browns do end up firing Kevin Stefansky. They bring back Andrew Barry. Talked about that on both sides. The Raiders move on from Pete Carroll, and the Cardinals do end up firing Jonathan Gannon. So dug into all of that with Derek Klesson on today's show. Let's get to that conversation right now. It's a day that I never look forward to on the NFL calendar,

but it's a day that always comes, and it's one that obviously requires our attention and something we have to dig through. But it is officially Black Monday in the NFL, and we knew we would get some news. There's some that were to be expected. I think there was one that at least somewhat of a surprise in the sense I think it was kind of on the fence,

but we've got a handful of firings that we are going to be sorting through today. It's the least fun day of the calendar, it feels like, which is crazy because yesterday, like last Sunday is one of the most exciting on the calendar. Like week 18, you're trying to sort out like who's going to get the one seat, who's going to be in the playoffs. And not within 24 hours. You're whipped around and had to talk about like four or five guys who have lost their job now. We have, I think, four head coach firings over the past 24 hours or so. We're just going to kind of go in chronological order because that's how this dock is laid out.

We got our first one last night. Rahim Morris fired by the Atlanta Falcons. GM Terry Fontno also fired by the Atlanta Falcons. Rich McKay, who was the CEO of the Falcons, is now becoming the CEO of, I think it's just like Blank Enterprises or something like weird, just overarching company. Obviously, Arthur Blank owns the soccer team down there. It's a big sports organization.

So Rich McKay is being reassigned a little bit. They're going to promote somebody from within to be the new CEO. It sounds like they're going to be bringing in a president of football operation. to kind of oversee everything, that person might be Matt Ryan. The moral of the story is the Falcons are a cleaning house after what has been, even with a strong finish, I think undeniably a pretty disappointing season in Atlanta. It's one of those things that I think the strong finish is cool if it's year one of a regime.

It's not as cool when it's a year two. And I think when people thought that you had playoff aspirations. And should have. And they were knocked out of playoff aspirations like a month ago. They were locked out of it. And so the record looks fine now, but they'd been out of this thing for a while. And so it was a really disappointing season pretty much from start to finish. I think the Terry Font, no thing is like that had to happen.

And we've talked about that before. Like outside of a lot of the picks that he's made in the top 10, they've just missed on a whole lot of stuff. And I know that because if you look at a lot of his other draft classes, they have not made a lot of very good picks outside of the first round. In 2021, they had Drew Dalman, who they chose not to retain when his deal came up. And they could have done that. And he's now been incredible for Chicago.

in 2022, they draft Tyler Al Jir. And then I guess you can say this year, the two DBs that you drafted, Billy Bowman and Xavier Watts. Like there's a little bit of something there. But other than that, they have not found guys who are really anything more than like okay off of the bench players in those rounds. And then even some of their free agent signings,

it's like you had Jesse Bates and I guess Darnell Mooney was nice. And it's not a whole lot outside of that. That's what paid a shitload of money for Jesse Bates. Right. Yeah, they paid sticker price for him. It's not like they got some sort of steel and he's giving you surplus value or anything like that. We've talked about this a lot when it came to the decision

that the Falcons were going to have to make. I think you could absolutely make an argument that it's only been two years for Rahim Morris. It hasn't been so bad where you can't justify bringing him back and think, okay, can they maybe work through some of the issues that they have on offense? But I'm 100% with you in the sense

that the way they've built the roster, the way they've gone about building the roster, it's been five years now for Terry Fontno in Atlanta, and I don't think there's enough appreciable progress that you feel confident about where this thing is going. And so I think he has to go. And if he's going to go,

do you want to pair a potential lame duck head coach with a new GM and not even just a new GM, but a completely new building that you are now kind of building from top to bottom? I think it just made more sense. And I can understand why they just want a completely fresh start. We are going to hit the reset button on this entire thing. And we're going to start over with what we want this to be.

That's the thing. Like I think if the GM situation were a little bit different, I don't know if Rahim Morris gets fired. Like I don't think a lot of what they've done is that offensive. Like if they had brought him back, I don't think it would have been that crazy, especially because like I know the offense was a little bit trickier this year and it wasn't quite as good.

I still think Zach Robinson's a decent play caller on offense. And then on defense, Jeff Oberg did a really good job for them. So Rahim, I think has hired a lot of the right people there in that respect. And so again, I think if the situation were a little bit different, maybe he doesn't lose his job. With the GM thing, it's just like, yeah, I feel like the way that this thing was built. What Fondon do did with the quarterbacks really back them into a corner,

and I really do think why Rahim Morris is losing his job, is if you bring back the coaching staff, it does feel like you're a little bit tied into what this quarterback situation is and you're stuck with it. If you just sever ties with both the GM and the head coach, you're still going to be stuck with them financially and capital-wise, but it does feel like you're entering a different clean slate with that. If you're Arthur Blank in this situation and you had,

I think a combination of the front office and the coaching staff and I think the combination of the front office coaching staff is what brought them to this point. I think that two years ago in the off season, they signed Kurt Cousins as a way to compete right away and then the coaching staff got involved in the process and the coaching staff really like Michael Penix and that's how you end up with Michael Pennex.

And if you're Arthur Blank and you look at how much you invested in quarterback in 2024 and now you're at the end of the 2025 season and none of them worked out, Like you have no clear answer. Like the fact that we invested this much a quarterback and now we still might not have one, that's probably disqualifying for Terry Fontno in the front office on its own. And so then again, you get the kind of trickle-down effect with, well, if you're going to move on from them, why not just move on from the coaching staff?

They have the most unenviable position at quarterback, I think in the entire league. Because a lot of other teams are stuck in like a bad spot of like, we don't have an answer or you've got a draft guy for Pennex? you think it's over? I didn't, to be clear, I really did not love him as a prospect. And I don't think he showed anything that crazy that would lead you to believe he's going to be that much more than like an average starter. I think even in some of the best of circumstances. And then I will say like, I think Kirk was fine this year, but you're at the end of the road with him. Like he's an older quarterback.

You're paying him a ton of money. And so I just think it's like, I think if we're talking about pure quality of the position going into 2026, they're not the worst. but just in terms of what you're tied to, how much it costs you to get here, and how hard it's going to be to find a new answer, they might have the most unenviable position. I still think there's a path for Pennix just because I do think that there's arm talent there.

Like he has tools. And so guys like that, even if they have flaws and he undeniably has flaws, I still think you could see a potential path for him moving forward. What you said about the offense and the defense, I want to sit in that just for a second. I'm with you with the offense. We've talked about this in a little.

little bit how I think what happened with Atlanta's offense this year kind of reminds me of some of the ways that the Dolphins offense has gone over the last few years where you have this kind of very specific thing that you want to be and you drill deeper and deeper and deeper into that specific thing and then you kind of realize the limitations of that I would have been curious coming into this off season if they kind of threw everything back on the table and said okay what do we really want to be that isn't necessarily tied to this kind of like shotgun pistol based offense that we stumbled into last year if If we put everything, if we evaluate every single option for what the offense can be,

I do think there is a path for this staff with this group of players to come out on the other side of it with a decent answer. And when you combine that with what they did on defense this year and kind of what Jeff Obrecht was able to get out of that group, I think that's enough for you. I want to see one more year from the staff. But unfortunately, the other dynamics at play don't allow that to happen and I can understand why. That's where I was at. I was frustrated that the offense got a little bit stale this year. But there was so much of what I liked in the first year.

And I still think that Zach Robinson does some decent things. And also they were just more unlucky this year. Like Darno Mooney gets hurt. Michael Pennix, he had certain. Like, he might not have been great. But like the fact that your starting quarterback goes down, throws a wrench and some things. And then honestly, this wasn't an unlucky part.

It was a little bit because Caleb McGarry gets hurt right before the season. But the offensive line was also just significantly worse. Like Jake Matthews was another year older. Losing Drew Dalman, I think, hurt them. I'm like when you are they are a simple run game it's a lot of just like outside zone from the pistol and if you're going to be that that's fine

if your offensive line kicks ass when you lose your right tackle, your left tackle gets older and you lose your center who's really really good it's a little bit harder to be as stale as you are and like consistently get the explosives that you want and build the offense through that. The Mooney thing is kind of the last point

I want to make about Terry Finno specifically. Them doing nothing on offense this offseason. Nothing. They added no. pieces to the offense, and they did it on purpose. That to me shows a real lack of vision for what it is to build and maintain a roster in the NFL. I think that a lot of teams that get sidetracked and make mistakes in how they think about how they move their team from point A to point B. This happens all the time. You get tunnel vision about what was wrong and it forces you to lose perspective or causes you to lose perspective on everything else. And so in Atlanta's case, they thought, okay, we need past rushers, Pass rushers, pass rushers. If we get that fixed, the offense will just be a slight step better than it was last year because why wouldn't it be in year two?

And that's just not how things work. You have no room for something to go wrong like a right tackle going down right before this season. Or Mooney getting hurt before the season. You're giving yourself no depth and no contingencies. And again, I think that that to me is the issue is that very often with this group, I think you just saw a lack of vision and a lack of understanding that you needed to be flexible. and how you were thinking about this stuff. It was a lot of, well, as long as we get X solved, then we'll be okay.

As long as we get Y solved, then we'll be okay. And that's just very rarely how a lot of this works, and they did it often. And I think that's how you arrive in this moment. And that's why the front office really running out of road leads the coaching staff to getting one fewer years than they probably deserved. Right. They just consistently over-leverage themselves to fix short-term solves and problems, and that's how you arrive where you arrive.

two guys that they've requested interviews with reportedly so far are the Falcons, Clint Kubiak, which it's going to be a really interesting I don't know what's in makeup. What's going on with that? Clint Kubiak, I think a lot of people are going to ask, why isn't Clun Kubiak a hotter candidate for some of these jobs based on what he has done as the offensive coordinator for the Seahawks? I think that's a fair question.

My response to that would be, Clint Kubiak is not the most dynamic personality. I don't think he's going to be winning a lot of press conferences. and that's going to be important to some teams. And I do think that command is an important part of this job. And I do think that's why you probably haven't heard Clint Kubiak's name mentioned quite as often as like the hotshot offensive coordinator in this cycle compared to guys in previous years.

Where Ben Johnson, it was kind of like, oh, is he a little bit robotic? You know, is he a little bit... But he clearly commands a room. It's a very different thing than it is with Clint Kubiak, who I think is just more of a reserved personality. the other guy that they're interviewing kind of on the other end of the spectrum when it comes to that.

And I do think schematically he has done a good job with the dolphins. Anthony Weaver is a very commanding and kind of charming personality. And so the fact that those are the two guys that they've sought out right now is actually kind of funny to me. I'm really into like Weaver as like,

I really hope that he gets a lot of interviews and really gets a lot of chances. Because again, this is, I do think a lot of the most interesting candidates in this cycle are defensive guys. And so I think obviously like Ash is, or Chris Shula is going to be one of the big ones.

Jesse Minter is going to be one of the, those are probably the two that people are going to be looking at. But I really do think Anthony Weaver, as far as like those defensive guys, especially ones that are fresh, like, you know, Vance Joseph might get some looks and stuff like that. But in terms of guys who are fresh, I'm really interested to see Weaver because we talked about it with when we were talking about Mike McDaniel of like, oh, this team is still playing really hard.

That defense, the secondary wasn't talented, but they were still playing their asses off very deep into the season. They finished 20th and weighted defensive DVD. That ain't bad, man. The Dolphins did. With no secondary players. No secondary, and you traded away your best front seven player at the deadline, and the defense was better down the stretch.

And we look at that 23 Ravens defense and just how much of a unit that group was. They were dominant. He was on that staff and carries over some of those ideas. Like, that is the modern defensive meta in the league. And again, he's not just like a wonk in the back room drawing up stuff. I do think that he is somebody that is engaging and to me is an intriguing name when it comes to some of this. And I'm glad that just because of the. dolphins finish 20th on defense, it's not pushing him out of some of these conversations

and considerations. I 100% agree. The last thing I want to say here with Clint Kubiak, he did work with Kurt Cousins in 2021 of Minnesota. And I wonder how much of that, for better or for worse, plays into that. Because that offense, honestly, was not that good. And so I wonder how much of like, did they just think that that was something else? And that was, I think that was his first run at play calling.

So that's obviously a consideration as well. So I'm just interested to see how that part of it goes. This is always fun. They have two different search firms overseeing. the pursuits and the processes for both head coach and GM, which we'll see how that goes. Two names I'm curious about when it comes to retention on the staff and two names if I needed guys in these positions I'd be looking at in this cycle.

We already mentioned Jeff Ulbrook. I think he did a very good job with the defense in Atlanta this year. And what I thought was so encouraging by the job that he did is that it wasn't the same stuff he was doing with the Jets. It was very different. And so I think he had a lot of self-reflection this offseason. and I think he showed a lot of nimbleness in how he wanted to build that defense and unleash it,

that's something I'd be attracted to if I were the Cowboys. That is a name I would call him immediately. In terms of, he'd be at the top of my list. He'd be on the short list in the top five, and he will get a job in this cycle. I'd be shocked if he didn't. The other guy, and if I were the new coach there, I would consider keeping him,

even though it is a specific sort of run game, their offensive line coach, Dwayne Ledford, is very good at what he does. And there are not that many offensive line coaches in the league that are real difference makers. He is somebody that they should have a conversation about keeping him in the building. And if they don't, another team, I think, would be lucky to land on him this spring. Let's keep moving here. The Browns fire Kevin Stefansky against one that I think we kind of predicted might happen

based on how this season unfolded for the Browns. Andrew Barry will be back as the general manager of the Cleveland Browns. this isn't surprising to me on either front. It's, I think the Andrew Barry thing is completely insane. I understand why they're doing it, but the Kevin Stefansky one is, it's such a bizarre and unique position where I totally understand why both sides needed to part ways. I also, as far as if teams are really obsessed with wanting an offensive guy, Kevin Stefansky is the first guy I'm calling, and it's not even close.

Like, I still think that he's a very good offensive coach. I have a lot of thoughts about this. about him or Barry or which side or both both okay both um I think that I'm with you I think that Kevin Cefansky should be a head coach in the NFL again I kind of want him to take a year off I like I kind of want him to like given how hard all of the last three or four years was I would get it if you want to breathe there I kind I think that it would benefit him to do that I doubt he will do that because I think that he loves being a football coach and I think he will continue to be a football coach. There are a lot of different considerations here. The first part of this for me

is that one of the reasons I would feel good about handing my organization over to Kevin Stefanski if I were one of these teams, the Giants, the Titans, he's made of the right stuff for this job. And there's one specific area of that that I would always come back to with how things went in Cleveland. A lot of people that are coaches in the NFL, they are ready to make excuses. They're quick to do it, especially in private. He's not, he never did that. It was never one of those things where, oh, our team was so hurt or no, oh, we didn't have the quarterback.

Even when they made the Deshawn Watson trade, I think he had every opportunity to frame the offense kind of petering out a little bit with Baker as, well, Baker's too limited and that's why we needed a new quarterback. Even if the organization felt that way, he never felt that way. It was never a, well, Baker is what was holding us back. He always believed you could win in the NFL. with Baker. And so I think that his kind of resilience in some of those moments and his

understanding of what life in the NFL is as a head coach where the only thing you can bank on is that you don't know how this is going to go and it's on you to make sure your team can ride the waves. That's how he's wired and I think he consistently did that as the head coach of the Cleveland Bronx. And I think you saw that in the way that his teams were prepared. Like I know that the offensive like the success of it and how well they produced. But

every time I watched this Browns offense for the last three or four years, I still felt like they were giving themselves the best shot that they could. One of the other, here's the phrase I'll use. Kevin Spansky had to eat a lot of shit over the last three or four years. Like just period. He had to eat a lot of shit. And part of that is you make the trade for Deshawn Watson,

and then you have to do everything now to cater the offense and to tailor the offense to what Deshawn Watson does well in order to do everything that you can't, does well. In order cater everything to the things that Sean Watson wants the offense to be. He's not doing any of it well. Right. And by doing that, you have to remove yourself from what you want to do offensively, which is a lot of stuff that, one, you've proven works and two is proven to work around the NFL. He did it with Jacoby Burset, like in the middle of all of that. Yes. And so I think that's one of the areas where,

again, there's so many different things he had to juggle and deal with, and that was one of them. And so that's part of why I think that this is just a natural endpoint. When we're We were talking about the silver linings for the Browns. We were talking about how the draft class within this year is good. There's some things that you can build on, but they really don't have a clear pathway to a quarterback. And making Kevin Stefanski oversee another season where the offense is pretty broken, the cupboard is bare,

and you're trying to figure out what this is going to be. I think just saying, hey, thank you for everything that you did. It's time for you to seek out other opportunities. We're going to move on to a different coach with maybe a different appetite for what we still have to do, here, I do think that that mindset on both sides makes a lot of sense in this moment. That's the part of it I get. Even if you're the Browns and you think Stafansky is a quality head coach, which again, I think that he is, when are you realistically going to be seeing the

fruits of that again? Like 2027? Maybe by the time you solve quarterback a little bit, you still got to reshuffle basically the entire offensive line. The entire offense. Yeah, pretty much. The only pieces on the offense are the guys that you drafted this year and Judy. Yeah. That's it. It's Judy. Quinnshaw Junkins who's coming off a major injury and Harold Fann & Jr. And how long is Judy's deal?

He's signed for a while. He's all the way through 2027 or 2028. That's it. That's the offense. You need to remake the entire offensive line and you need a new quarterback. There's just no reason to hold on

to Kevin Safansky like that. And again, I think he will be good somewhere else. But again, by the time you see any of the results of what he could possibly do in Cleveland, it's like you might as well start fresh. Why do you think the Barry thing is insane? I don't think you're off base. What has he done or accomplished?

a lot of this is going to come down to... I understand the process of them acquiring picks and they do a decent job with some of that. I just... I do not think they have drafted well up until this class. And then I know some of it was probably the owner. The Sean Watson thing does hang over his head pretty heavy in my eye. I don't think that's wrong.

I think again, what I was going to say is a lot of this is going to come down to what you think of the Watson trade. And it's not only just how bad Deshawn Watson was. It's how you have to borrow from so many, other things in order to deal with the fallout from the Watson trade. If you trade three first-round picks for a player and you give him the biggest contract in the NFL and he's one of the three worst quarterbacks in the league, there's almost no coming back from that unless you have an absolute heater in the mid-erons of the draft, which they have

not to be clear, and we can talk about that. What they had to do because of that deal is borrow and borrow and borrow from the rest of the roster and from future years to the point where the entire thing just shows. triveled and atrophied into nothing. And that's what you're left with. I can understand if you're the Haslums, looking at Andrew Barry, who is very smart, he's a very good communicator,

he's somebody that has a lot of command, and I'm not surprised they think he's the right person to oversee something like this. So I'm not, it doesn't surprise me that they landed in this place. Where I get with Andrew Barry is, the draft record is poor. There's no denying that.

Here are the top 100 picks from the Andrew Barry era. Jed Wills, Jordan Elliott, Jordan Phillips, Greg Newsom, J. O.K., Anthony Schwartz, Martin Emerson, Alex Wright, David Bell, Cedric Tillman, Siaki Ica, Michael Hall, Zach Zinter. Two of those players have signed extensions with the Browns. One of them is J.O.K. That's not his fault that J.O.K. might not play again. But that is a heinous record. And they didn't have any first round picks because of the Deshawn Watson trade. I think my issue with the Barry regime more than anything, Andrew Barry is a very smart guy.

Andrew Barry is much smarter than me. this job is more art than science. And I think that too often they haven't treated it that way. Some of the moves they've made are very black and white, and on paper they make sense. And I think that they've allowed that type of thinking to creep into how they do this a little bit too often. He comes from a place where he spent time

with really smart people who are really good at this job. He spent time in Philadelphia. Howie Roseman had what was, a pretty transformative experience for him when he got moved to the other side of the building and essentially fired. And I think that he reevaluated some of that art versus science stuff in a way that has ultimately benefited from him. Andrew Barry used a phrase today when talking about how grateful he was to keep the job. He's like, I appreciate the fact that the organization thinks that I'm the person to handle this transition. He should treat it as a transition too.

They need to start approaching things a little bit differently than they have for the results to be different. I think that can happen because I do think he's capable of that sort of reflection. And again, I do think that he is a smart, capable person. But I do think that they have to start approaching things differently than they've done in the past if they want results that are removed from what it's been like over the last few years. I agree. And at least from that sense, I get why if in the Haslam's mind, like they were the ones that were pushing for the Deshaun Watson trade, like they are not holding that on him and putting that as a mark on his record and saying, okay, this was a little bit of Arbad. We're going to give you another chance to see if you can reevaluate the things that you do things. Because, again, I agree that a lot of it was very black and white, a lot of, in theory,

like we're just going to acquire all these resources and stuff like that. And so the idea with that has always been like, well, over the long run, that works for you. But like the reality is you don't get a long run a lot of the time in the NFL. You usually have shorter timelines than this. And so I do think he is in a unique position where he's going to get a second chance at this at the same job effectively. I'm still just dubious about how this is going to go. be really curious to see what happens with the conversations and the interviews as Stefansky gets over the next little bit.

I do think he makes sense for the Giants. Like the Giants going with somebody who has done this job before and had success doing this job before, I think he's much more interesting to me than Mike McCarthy. Oh, God, yeah. We'll see what happens with him and if he were to get paired with Jackson Dart. That's an interesting marriage to me just because what Jackson Dart does well is not necessarily the stuff that Kevin Stefansky wants to do. but Kevin Stefansky has lived in that

like shotgun RPO world already and so I do think that he has some fluency in it and I do know he was very impressed with Jackson Dart through the process and so that to me that's the one where I'd be like okay I'd be curious to see that

I also think that he would be a potential good fit with Cam Ward in Tennessee like for those coaches with second year quarterbacks seeking out stability with guys that have done this job in the past I think that Stefansky makes sense to me for both of those teams I just think for his sake,

I wish he would just take a little bit of time. I hadn't been thinking about that, about him taking a little time off. I do think it probably makes sense just because of how much... I don't think he's going to, by the way. Right, but how much of those last three or four years probably wore on you? I think my favorite of those fits is Tennessee,

because I do think the offensive line is not great, but good enough to do a lot of the stuff that he wants to do. And also, like, I think Cam Ward came out of college as more of a guy who was, like, a gun quarterback, and I think he did a lot of that this year. But I do think he's a guy who can get under something. center pretty comfortably. You can roll him out. You can boot him. I think he can do some of the under center just like straight drop back, chuck a post route down the field type of play action.

Like he, to me, does fit into a lot of the buckets that Stefansky would want in like in a quarterback in my opinion. And I also think that he was impressed with Camp Warden the presses. This would not be a situation where he'd be getting tied to a quarterback that he doesn't like. And so I think that one makes sense in a lot of ways. Adam Schaefter already reported today that he is expected to speak with the Falcons, Giants, and Titans about those head coaching jobs. And so I think that's correct. I do think that he should be a candidate and I'm very sought after one in this cycle. All right, let's take our first quick break here and then come back and chat about a firing that I think we all knew was coming.

Good to our next one here. The Las Vegas Raiders have fired Pete Carroll. And statement put out by the team, they said GM is John SpyTech will lead all football operations in close collaboration with Tom Brady. I assume that means overseeing the head coaching search that is about to happen. I'm not sure we were in a place where you could justify that stuff coming back about how, after the way that the season went for the Raiders. This was the easiest of the other ones. And I know that there are a couple, you like the Stefansky one,

it makes sense. The Rahim Morris one, you can kind of explain it. The Pete Carroll one had to happen because the whole calculus with Pete Carroll was that this was not going to, we were not going to have a long runway here, and we were going to get this thing going to be competitive right out of the gate. You were thinking like six wins and a fun season at minimum.

Like that was the bar for what you were trying to accomplish. Like an NFL team full of adults. Yes, exactly. You looked like you were put together and at no point did this team look put together. And I think that that is when you arrive at that point where you are the worst team in the NFL, forget, the team that was supposed to be jumpstarted. And with P.K, again, it's not like you had an extremely disappointing season and you have like a first time head coach who maybe needed to figure some stuff out. Pete Carroll's done this before and probably doesn't, is not going to be able to do this job for very much longer. So for you to immediately crash down to being the worst team in the NFL, it's hard to justify having let the string run out any longer. It'll be fun to watch the things that get leaked out over the next couple days. I think there are already, Pete Carroll's camp is already trying to get in front of the idea that Chip Kelly was not his idea. And the state of the offense was really the issue here. I mean, that's fine. But there clearly so many.

His son is the offensive line coach. And the offensive line that was in, I think, a fragile position. Like, you could have seen the upside case. It's a great word for it. You could have seen the upside case where they are the 19th best offensive line. A couple of the young guys take a statement. step. Colton Miller has a really good season and they are totally functional. But it was also the case where it's like a lot of these young guys maybe don't work out.

Maybe JPJ takes a step back. DeMarglaz doesn't do what you want him to do. And all of these guys end up really being the worst versions of themselves and they struggle to pick up stuff in past protection. And they are maybe the worst offensive line in the league this year. Like that to me was like pretty unacceptable. So again, maybe he didn't hire Chip Kelly. But when your son is the offensive line coach and they are worse than they could have been, I think that's tough.

And then the other thing with Pete, so much of the defense was his vision. And I know the defense wasn't necessarily the problem, but they drafted Darian Porter, who's like Big Long Fast, who really didn't start in college, which is a crazy idea as a draft thing. They signed Eric Stokes,

like Jamal Adams played 40% of the snaps for this team. One of their big free agency signies was Jeremy Chin, because they need like a big, strong state. Like it's just so much of the defense was in his vision. So it's hard for me to buy the idea that a lot of what happened there was not like in his vision. vision. Yeah, this one to me was just very easy. The promise

and what you're sold with the idea of P. Carroll was a level of competency. The ceiling, I think, is lower than you wanted to be with a first time head coach. This is a team that wanted Ben Johnson. They did not get Ben Johnson. They pivoted to P. Carroll. And so you change what you're seeking

out from ceiling with Ben Johnson, that's exactly the archetype, to floor with P. Carroll. Well, if the floor drops out, then there's no selling point as to why you should continue this. Aaron Glenn is at least a first year head coach that's sorting through that job with a young staff. The fact that that team looks like a disaster, okay, like that's a possibility for a first time head coach. If Aaron Glenn had gotten fired, I wouldn't be surprised. But I think

the considerations with what the Jets are doing and where the Jets landed and where the Raiders landed are very, very different for that reason. And honestly, the one last thing I want to say about like how it's very easy to justify the Pete Carroll thing. The whole idea, again, was that it was like, You bring in guys, you compete. Everybody's an adult. There's buy-in. Jacoby Myers did not want to be on this football team. And then they trade him and he's like the most important receiver in the league

on one of the best offenses in the league since they traded for him. Like it's that little like dichotomy there. Like that split. It's pretty hard to justify how. I also assume you're just offended by the idea that they didn't figure out how to use Brock Bowers even early in the season when he was healthy. The whole, we got so excited. I was so excited about what the Brock Bowers,

Ashton Genti offense. could be. And the fact that we didn't really get to see it for a lot of the season until like the last three or four weeks maybe. And again, I know Browers was hurt for a little bit of it, but they really outside of that first New England game did not know a lot of what they wanted to do with Bowers. And then Jensi really never got going until the end of it, which again, offensive line was terrible. So I get it. But the fact that what could have been a really cool offense was ripped apart from us was really, really frustrating. I wonder what type of coach the Raiders seek out as the guy to replace Pete Carroll.

Like, is this going to be a situation where they look at a lot of the hot defensive coaches that are in this cycle? Do they want a first time head coach as part of this? I wouldn't be surprised if they went that route, considering the guy that was supposed to bring you stability, didn't do that. But this is a team that it honestly feels like such a blank slate that I'm not sure you have to paint yourself into one type of option because anything should be on the table. Like there's nothing you're tied to with like the construction of this. team other than like Brock Bowers and Ashton Denty. Even Max Crosby, I don't think, is necessarily going to be on the Raiders next year. Yeah, I really don't know what they're going to do.

And like, even the defensive thing is funny. Because we've joked about like Patrick Graham potentially getting a potentially sticking around, which would be really funny. But like, I do think they should still be really open to some of the defensive guys. Because again, unless Defansky takes this job, which the, him going from what the Cleveland offensive line had to be last year to going to the Raiders. Like that should not happen for him. I would really feel bad for him.

But I do think a couple of things. the defensive guys make sense for them. Like I would be interested in them seeking out one of these younger defensive guys, whether it's Minter, whether it's Shula, whether it's Weaver, I don't really care. I do think that that is probably the best been they're going to be able to pick from.

Gets are the last firing news that came down today. The Cardinals do end up firing Jonathan Gannon. I felt like this is one that was probably just from the outside looking in. I think you could make an argument either way. And the argument for me for keeping him

is that, okay, you were supposed to win this year. If you just look at the timeline, if you look at the investments, if you look at how much urgency they had this off season, this was supposed to be the year where you were competitive. Injuries decimated this team, especially on defense when you look at all the guys who missed time.

Obviously the Kyler thing, like when you look at man games lost and adjust the games lost and all of this stuff, that Kyler one's going to loom large. Like that doesn't really count. That was the fankest like IR. Yeah. That's going to skew the numbers a little bit.

bit, but injuries decimated this team. But even if you consider that, when they were relatively healthy early in the year, I don't think you had enough signs that they were on their way to breaking through. And so the question's going to be, if you bring him back, all right, if we're a little bit healthier next year, we're going to go out and get a new quarterback next year almost certainly, is do you have faith in this staff being the group that is going to help us break through? And if not, is it just easier to cut the cord start over when you will probably have a new young quarterback in the building

and you're already going to have something of a fresh start at one of the most important positions in the organization? That's kind of where I'm at. I think when you go from what was a relatively promising 2024 season where it's like, okay, we're building to something. You can see what the vision for the quarterback is in the offense is supposed to look like. The defense was doing some interesting stuff

with a pretty bare cupboard. And I think you go into this year thinking, okay, if we can get 15% better on defense and we can just the young pieces on offense take their steps, Isaiah Adams, Marvin Harrison Jr., some of the running backs, whoever it is. And I know they get banged up and that kind of throws a wrench in it. There's a difference from being a little bit disappointing and maybe not delivering on some of that stuff to completely unraveling. And I know some of that, again, is a lot of injuries on defense. But the quarterback thing, like, Kyler Murray has his issues and he's not a perfect quarterback. by any means. I think that whole thing unfolding the way that it did where they could not come to

some sort of agreement of how to run the offense around him and what they wanted to do with him. And then inserting Jacoby Peret into the offense, believing that this was going to change things. And then they had like two good weeks and it really did not ever amount to anything after that. I think that does fall a little bit on the coaching staff. And then this one is harder

and is a lot more speculation. I'm very curious about what the whole Marvin Harrison Jr. deal is. Like him completely falling out of the lineup really is kind of bizarre. because even if we want to say that he's been disappointing for the fourth overall pick, he still showed flashes where he can be a pretty damn good football player. For that to unravel the way that it has,

it's really confusing to me. The defense, again, all the injuries that they had this year on that side of the ball, I do think that a lot of the stuff that Nick Rollis does is interesting. I'd be curious where he would land as a defensive coordinator in this cycle potentially. I think there's something there.

With the offense specifically, you and I talked about this. Them losing Clayton Adams, and kind of losing the foundation of the run game that they had built there. I think you felt that. I think you felt the fact that the offense specifically was really starting to stagnate a little bit.

And that's kind of where I think you get to a place of, was this the right group for them to break through? And instead of doing the thing that so many organizations do where they're like, all right, well, we'll fire the offensive coordinator, we'll bring in a new offensive coordinator. And then that'll be kind of your last chance at this thing combined with the quarterback. They just decided to avoid all of that.

I think it's fine. Yeah, because at that point, we've spent all this time, like, getting Kyler Marie into this specific offense. And then obviously that goes right. What would have, like, changing the offensive coordinator and then maybe you give Kyle, like, I just, none of that would have made sense. I don't think Kyle was going to be the quarterback next year. He probably won't. I think somebody else is going to be the quarterback next year. And that's, again, that's the thing.

Would you want to allow this staff to pick a quarterback in a lame duck year? Or do you just want to kind of cut the court and say, we're going to start over? And I can understand landing in that place. Yeah, I would probably rather just start over. Maniasifor is staying there as the general manager. That to me also isn't surprising on a couple different fronts. I don't think the player acquisition part of who the Cardinals have been has been so bad where you think, okay, we absolutely have to move on.

Because a lot of the misses have been a little bit unlucky injury-wise. It's not just like they took a guy and he can't play. It's been a lot of like the BJ O'Jallari thing and like Garrett Williams, who was good for the missed time this year. It's been a lot more stuff like that, I felt like. BJ O'Jolari at 41 feels like a miss in that first draft. There were a lot of guys picked after him in the second round where you drop that guy onto this Cardinals team

and you'd feel pretty good about what he's giving you. Joe Tipman, Osirits, Torrance, DJ Turner, Brenton Strange, just like guys who are contributing to their teams. In 2024, the Cardinals had seven top 100 picks. Four of them have missed significant time due to injury. Darius Robinson, Max Melton was heard for a good chunk of this year, Trey Benson, Tip Raymond missed most of this year, and then Elijah Jones, who's a corner, has barely played for them.

And so that draft is essentially at nothing at this point. And then Marvin Harrison Jr. was their top five pick in that draft. And Darius Robinson was a first round pick. And so it hasn't been a roaring success by any stretch when it comes to player acquisition through the draft. But I don't think that the way they've gone about it is misguided or incorrect or rooted in the wrong stuff. And I think that this front office, it's fine to me if you want to keep them.

One of the other reasons that I think it's worth keeping this GM in this front offices, they revant everything about how the Cardinals operate. The Cardinals were such a strange organization where if you go back like 20 years, they kept promoting from within for their general manager job. And so a lot of their processes and how they evaluated players in the language that they used and the systems that they used were very, very kind of esoteric and in some ways outdated. and so they've completely revamped everything.

And I think trying to maintain that vision is probably worthwhile, even if it's been a little bit disappointing. And I do think there is some talent here. I think you absolutely need, like you said this, no more half measures with the offensive line. Like you need to make a serious and firm commitment to improving that group this year. We need at least two new guys.

And they will have money in free agency, especially if they trade collar, but even if they don't, they will have a little wiggle room to bring in some known quantities along the offensive line. Either one of the bills guys, players like that, those interior guys, that needs to happen for this team. And I think they're a really good candidate.

If the Jets don't want a quarterback at two, can you move up one spot or can you take that quarterback at three? You've stumbled into a place where you might be able to find an off ramp at that position. I think there is a decent amount of young talent on defense, even if some of those guys have been hurt. And so I don't think it's crazy to believe that the right hire here, if they can bolster a couple of those position groups, can get this team to a competitive place sooner rather than later. I still believe that as well, because I do think the offense, again, if you fix the offensive line a little bit, the offense is talented. You have arguably the best tied in

in football. Like Michael Wilson has been insane. He's been incredible. He was crazy over the second half of the season. Marvin Harrison Jr. stuff is weird, but I still think he's a very talented player. that potentially with the right coaching staff, you bring him in and he kind of gets back to where he should be. And then the running back room is talented when they're healthy. They were just insanely banged up this year. And so I think you have that kind of working against them. So I think they still have talent on offense, even if they could use a little bit of help. And then the defense, like when they were healthier earlier in the year, especially the secondary, they did show some signs of life.

Like I actually think the secondary is pretty talented when they have their guys like Garrett Williams is good. I thought Max Milton was having a good year. Will Johnson, I think, could be really, really good. Denzel Burke was pretty good as a fifth round pick for them, who I don't think they wanted to play this year, obviously, because they had Melton, but he had to come in, and I thought he looked okay. Like, the secondary is good.

And if the front gets a little bit healthier, you add maybe one guy, like, I know this sounds crazy for a team that won, what, three games, four games? They were decimated by injuries. And they purposely took a step back at quarterback, basically. Like, it just, it's, I don't think they're that far away for a team that is only won three games.

I tend to agree with you. But again, I, but again, I think I can still understand why they were going to move on because I think that for them to tap. Both can be true and that's okay. Yes. And for them to tap into what you're saying, I think a different coaching staff might be the answer in the actual path to get there. All right, let's take one more quick break here and then come back and chat about a few other

little nuggets that have come out today. All right. So the two openings that already existed before the latest round of firings, the Titans and the Giants. We had a little bit of news about the Titans restructuring their organization in the last week. or so, Mike Borgesi, who's their general manager, he's going to lead the head coaching search. He's in charge of all the football operations. Chad Brinker, who's their president of football operations, he's still overseeing some of the longer-term vision stuff, which I think they kind of were already in that place when it came

to who was, like the timelines, the way it was described to me last year when I was there in the summer is the timelines were different, right? Like, Chad Brinker was on like a five-year timeline. This is how we're going to operate within the building. Little things like, this is what our. our in-house software is going to look like for how we organize the salary cap, shit like that. That's what he's doing. Mike Barganzi's picking the players.

So I don't think that's a huge change from what was already happening. I think it's just a matter of streamlining it a little bit. They have four requests that they have put in for their head coaching job. One is Matt Nagy, obviously has a connection with Mike Borganzi. That's a non-starter for me. It's just a non-starter. Yeah, that one's a complete zero for me. I just don't have it.

I just don't understand what the argument is. Because even if you want to make the case that he was, okay in stretches as a head coach the first time. It was because of the defense. It was an unbelievably good defense in 2018. They were historically good. Like, they were crazy. He's the offensive coordinator for an offense

that has run out of road with one of the best players in the league. For a place that he might have been brought back to because he was already there seven years ago or whatever it was. And it seems like he's not going to be, he's like a free agent after this year. I just don't think there are many reasons

that you would want Madagie to be the head coach of the type. Some guys just aren't head coach. I think that's okay. The other three guys, not surprising to see them on this list, Steve Spagnola, which, again, similar connections with Borgonzi from their time in Kansas City, and then Vance Joseph and Luanerumo. Vance Joseph has done a phenomenal job with the Broncos defense thing.

When we did the show with Connor a couple of weeks ago about coaching candidates, he was near the top of the list. I mean, there's really no reason he shouldn't be in consideration for some of these jobs. And then Luana Rumo was a head coaching candidate for years based on what he did with the Bengals defense. And I think he did a pretty solid job with the Colts this year with a group that doesn't have a ton of talent. So not necessarily any surprises on that list.

And obviously we'll continue to check in with that. On the Giants side of this, we knew this was probably coming. We got the official word today. Joe Shane will be back as the general manager of the Giants. Both of us have kind of made our feelings note about that. Yeah, I'm kind of still whatever on that. I get it if they want to give him.

I was going to say like I get it if they want to give him another shot at quarterback, but now they're kind of tied to Jackson Dart at quarterback when that felt like it was a Brian Dable thing. All of it is just, it just feels very mismatched from, like it just feels like a weird timeline to me. I've said it every time we've discussed this, it can work.

We've got plenty of examples of it working where GMs have struggled with one coaching staff. You bring in a new coaching staff and the GM does a better job over time. I do think there's a level of volatility to the gig where that is a possibility. I also just think that you're providing yourself or putting an unnecessary barrier in front of you to succeed.

Like there is so little about the Giants roster and the way that they've built the Giants roster that I think is worth holding on too. Yeah, because even if you like, the front is really, really cool. They were one of the worst run defenses in the modern era with that front. Like, we've gone over this.

Dexter Lawrence was already there. Yes. They drafted Abdul-Carter with the third overall pick and just like stumbled into it. Everyone would have picked Carter at three. Yes. Like it's, you don't get a whole lot of credit.

They just happen to have the third pick because they were really bad. Yeah. And the Brian Burns trade, I made this joke like a week ago. I don't get credit for like having a nice car if I paid the sticker price on the car. Like trading a second round pick and giving a market deal to Brian Burns, Brian Burns has been a really good player. It's almost impossible for you to get excess value from the Brian Burns move because of

what you gave up to get Brian Burns. And so I just don't think like the idea that, oh, they built this really good defensive line. First of all, the defense still sucks. It's terrible. Yeah. Second of all, like, I don't think you deserve credit for building that group because you stumbled into half of it.

And the last guy, you gave up a crazy amount to get him. It's a bunch of premium picks and premium capital on it. And like, yeah, it should be good. And honestly, yeah, when you calculate how bad the run defense, it's probably not as good as it should be. Yeah. And so I'm just not sure there are many reasons to, like, have a lot of faith or provide a good argument for why this should continue, but it is what it is.

Notable coaches and executives who are staying in jobs and it has been announced that they are. Zach Taylor and Duke Tobin will be back with the Bengals. I don't think that should be a surprise. It's not a surprise. But Zach Taylor is another one where I don't necessarily think that he's done an offensive job. but to me is one of those just at a certain point, you've kind of run out of road and the results speak for themselves. I know that Joe Burroughs been hurt a lot,

but not making it to the playoffs three years in a row with him as your quarterback. And I also think Joe Burrow is awesome. He's a really good quarterback. I would like a head coach who pushes Joe Burrow to be a little bit different of a quarterback than he is. And I've been saying that for years. And so I think we've just gotten to a point now where we kind of keep running into the same issues over and over again. I would have liked to see some change,

but I understand them. thinking that this year was kind of just shocked because Burrow missed most of the year and being like, okay, we'll run it back one more time. We'll see how it goes after that. Something small, but Duke Tobin is meeting with reporters on Friday. He really only does that once a year at the Combine. The Bengals is just a weird organization.

It's just a very strange organization. It's set up in a weird way. Like, he's not really the GM, but he oversees the personnel department. Like, it's a mom and pop shop that operates differently than everybody else does. The fact that he is doing that, I think, ownership and the people in charge they understand that there is a level of urgency.

And I think heading into next year, I think there will be a real conversation about what the Bengals have to accomplish for people there to retain their jobs. I think I'm okay with that. If we go into next year with an understanding of like, if you guys do not make real noise, then we're going to have some change here,

I think that's okay. Because that's the thing, like in my mind, even with some of the injury stuff, if the Chiefs, the Bills, the Ravens, or even like the Chargers with Justin Herbert, if any of those teams missed the playoffs three years in a row, there would be changes. And so the Bengals are in a unique position

where that just has not happened. Shane Steichen and Chris Bauer, both back in Indianapolis, kind of a similar situation to me. There are differences in the sense that I think the job that Shane Steichen did over the first half of this year, it's hard to find a head coach that in a play caller that is capable of that sort of level. Like those are extremely valuable in the NFL

and I think that you should hold on to one like that because the slide that the Colts had in the second half of the season is totally explainable. Like it's like you understand how it happened. And so I think based on what Shane Steichen did over the first half of this season, you should bring Shane Steichen back. And in that vein, it's like,

why would you change out the GM? I just think similar sort of situation. bring back that group next year. If you guys do not make the playoffs next season, this is over. Like that needs to happen. And I think, again, I'm okay with the organization landing in that place. I've gotten there too because I really like what Shane Steckin's done. And again, when you can reach those highs as a play caller,

that's something that you probably want to hold on to. And then I've had some of my issues with the way the Ballard has gone about things over the last handful of years. But again, if you're going to bring back Steichen, bringing in a new GM seems like a weird amount of pressure to put on Steichen, then in the sense of like now you're a little bit disconnected. It just, I understand why they're going to run it back for one more. And we already talked about the Aaron Glenn thing.

Like I just think that's a situation where I'm not sure there's a lot of really good arguments. It's not that there aren't a lot of really good arguments. I think it's hard to find a lot to be happy or excited about with what the New York Jets were in 2025. At the same time, one and done and just, again, throwing yourself into upheaval all over again. I think if you're the front office for the Jets, if you're Darren Mugie in this class, I would consider not taking a quarterback with a second overall pick and just kicking the can down the road,

using that draft capital to bolster other areas of your roster, get a little bit more clarity about what the long-term future of the organization is going to look like because we do this all the time. We're like, well, next year's quarterback class is going to be better. This year's quarterback class isn't good. They're like two options at the top. And one of them is like, how many starts does Dante Moore have?

It's like a dozen. Yeah, it's not as much as you would want. Yeah, this isn't a scenario to me where, like, the Patriots were in a really bad spot a couple years ago, but Drake May was available with a third overall pick. That's our vicious history. Like, I loved Drake May as a prospect. Drake May, that was the thing with, like, Drake May and Caleb going into their final years, it was obvious, like, oh, these guys are top five picks if they don't mess this up,

and neither of them did, obviously. And if you're the Jets, you have three first round picks next year, and you are very likely going to be bad again. And it's a scenario where it might be a tough sell to the coaching staff being like, hey, we're going to bring in a veteran. You guys are going to have to make it work. But they didn't do anything this year that puts them in a position to be demanding about what the quarterback situation is going to be. And so I think, hey, we're going to give you a Mac Jones type. What can you do with this?

And going into the next season, maybe we'll draft the quarterback. To me, that is, it's so, so early. it's January 5th. At first glance, that's my first thought about the Jets and just like the situation that they're in. Because allowing this staff to draft a quarterback that they like when there's a very real possibility, this is the last year of the staff, I just don't think that's in anybody's best interest in a down quarterback year.

Yeah, this is going to be one where I'm probably the most curious about how they handle the quarterback position. All right. Well, that is all we've got for today. We've got a whole host of shows coming your guys this week, Building the Beast. Again, speaking of the draft, if you guys are not listening to Building the Beast, now is the time we are officially in draft season. Our buddies Dave Hellman and Dane Bruegler every single week breaking down all things draft. I think Dane's doing his all-rooky team this week on the show,

you know, plus some just early looks at a couple teams in the top 10. So I encourage you guys to start checking that out if you have not. And then we will be back with mid-season awards on Thursday, which is going to be very fun. Last kind of, call for you guys. There are still a few tickets left to the live show at Lincoln Hall in Chicago. If you are in the Chicagoland area, want to check it out. Doors are at 6.30. Show is at 7.30. We are very much looking forward to it. And if you're around and want to come, encourage you to do so. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.