The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Black Monday fallout: Mike Vrabel, Arthur Smith and Ron Rivera out, Bill Belichick in limbo, Jim Harbaugh's NFL prospects, and more with Dianna Russini

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

While 14 NFL teams get ready for the playoffs, the other 18 have turned their attention to the offseason. At least six teams among those 18 will spend the immediate future looking for a new head coach. Robert Mays and Dianna Russini discuss all the Black Monday fallout on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Dianna on Twitter: @DMRussiniSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today is our senior NFL insider at the athletic. Diana, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm psyched that week 18 actually turned out to be a little bit more exciting than I was expecting it to.

It did. And I don't, I want to say the Monday firings were, expected. I classify it that way right now, but I still think there's there's a lot more action to come. So let's definitely get into this. A couple that I think were hanging in the air, maybe one that was a tiny bit surprising, but not shocking, one that I think everyone saw coming. And then we have a couple that we're still waiting on, which we'll get to near the end of the show. But that's what we're doing today. We're going to break down all of the moving parts with the head coach firings, the head coach interview process, the GMs that are being interviewed at some of these spots. So let's start with

some of the most recent moves that have happened, including the one that was a little bit surprising, I guess, to some people on Sunday night. Arthur Smith fired as head coach of the Falcons after three, seven and ten seasons. Sounds like Terry Fontno will keep his job, at least for now, as the Falcons GM. I thought that Arthur Blank in his press conference yesterday provided a lot of really good context for why they made this decision. Sometimes when the owners are talking about this, it's a lot of nonsense and a lot of word salad that doesn't give you actual insight into why they made this choice. But Arthur Blank yesterday came out and said, I want to read this. He said it was a number of factors that went into it. And the fact that we ended up where we did after we

had a schedule that was really to our favor. I think generally most people would say we drafted well over three years. Generally, most people would say our free agency particularly this year, which is really the first thing that we had kept money to work with generally would get high grades. But the gap between achieving and underachieving was much bigger than what I anticipated this year in a variety of ways. I think that's a very sober look at why the Falcons made this decision and what this season was in the grander context of the last three years. So if you're looking for a pretty concise answer as to why this decision happened, I don't really think you have to look much further than that.

I would have translated it even more for you. Arthur Smith wins two more games and maybe loses on Sunday less ugly or in a cleaner fashion. I think Arthur Smith still has the job. Yeah. I think that's essentially what that statement says to me. And I can tell you from behind the scenes. He did not want to fire Arthur Smith. He was struggling with this.

And it was almost as if Arthur Smith forced the hand, especially how they played on Sunday and losing that game. I don't think it came down to that final game for the record. I don't. I don't think the decision was made before the game. But it didn't help. I can tell you that much in terms of the final decision that they made. And it was it was all moving in that direction.

Well, what do you think was kind of the final straw? What do you think ultimately push this over the edge, in your opinion? I think it was the broad building of this team. It was the building of this team and the offensive weapons that they had, the performance needed to be better. The understanding in the facility and in the meeting rooms was that, okay, we're rebuilding. We've been rebuilding. We've been adding pieces, adding pieces.

We just need the quarterback. We just got to get there. And I think when a team has the weapons and has the roster, that they do. And yes, the quarterback situation was not good at all. But he owns blame for that.

That's the problem with this. And Arthur had so much belief in Desmond Rerner and so much belief in any of the quarterbacks he was putting in there. And look, every coach is going to tell you, yeah, this is the guy, this guy, because they're the ones making that choice. But he really sold the fans and sold the building

that he has belief in Desmond Ritters, not only football intelligence, but his ability. So then when you see the mistakes that are being made out on the field and the turnovers, it falls on Arthur because of that confidence that he had in the quarterbacks. Exactly right. That was the challenge. And I know that Arthur, if he could do it all over again, he would have brought on a veteran quarterback, which is really hard for him to say because he did believe in.

these guys. And I think he thought that he could get the best out of these guys. And owners are seeing what we're seeing. They're not any, they're not privy to any more information than we are in terms of what else is going on in the league. So when you're watching the Cleveland Browns and Kevin Stefanski find ways to win with these different quarterbacks, when you're seeing at one point the Minnesota Vikings finding ways to win with these guys that appear to be, you know, coming off the street, granted, they weren't. But We know what the quarterback situations were, even the New York Giants for a minute, right? As an owner, you're watching this and you're going, why can't we do that?

Nobody has the Jets situation where they're going, where the ownership's going, we don't care if you lose, we have Aaron, right? No owner's thinking that way, except Woody Johnson, right? Arthur Blank wants to at least see some production. He wants to see a victory here and there, and he just wasn't getting it. And I really think of all the firings, this in terms of the, the owner and coach, I think this one was the hardest because he really wanted to stick with the philosophy he had, which is we're building. And he tends to have more patience than most. He does. And I totally

understand that because if you were in that building this summer, you could feel the momentum. You could feel the excitement. You could feel the optimism that was surrounding the direction that they were headed in. We've talked about it a million times on the show, but I think it's really important to kind of reset the context here. This team was eighth in offensive DVOA last season with Marcus Mario da quarterback. The plan that they had, and the production they were getting from their players was outsized compared to the personnel that was in the building and was outsized compared to the ambitions they had in the team building process. They were not spending money.

They were tearing this thing down to the studs and they were still competitive. So the thought this year was, okay, we're going to spend some money. Can we take this thing to the next step? And that didn't happen. And with the quarterback position specifically, they had opportunities and multiple drafts to try to go get a quarterback. The first draft that this regime had was the year where they drafted Kyle Pittsforth overall. and they could have taken Justin Fields or some other quarterback in that process.

I think the thought in that building was we have seen so many guys that have failed because they've been dropped into bad situations. So before we go get the quarterback, let's build up the situation. They go get multiple skill position pieces as part of that process. They build a really solid offensive line. And the thought was, okay, if we can get decent play out of the quarterback, we can really have a good offense. The problem was, that's not how.

it often works. Like if you have a bad quarterback, it's hard to have a good offense. And my concern with them over the last couple years was you guys are going to build it this way. You're going to be a middle of the road team. And then you are going to leave yourself without a path to a quarterback. And that is potentially what has happened again. So now you'd be going into this draft. You're picking in the top 10, but in the back half of the top 10. If you're going to go get one of the quarterbacks in the draft, let's say New England wants to take Marvin Harrison Jr. or one of these teams wants to trade out. You're going to have to give up a lot to go get that guy. And if you're Arthur Smith, you have urgency to go get that guy. Well, if you're Arthur Blank,

do you want to allow a lame duck staff that has this level of urgency to spend future resources in the year that they might get fired? That is not good ground on which to operate entering the 2024 season. So instead of giving the keys to a staff that may be near the end, I can understand stepping back and saying, we need to. a sober approach to this. We can't be operating with that hanging over the entire franchise this year. So even if I think it's really only one disappointing year for Arthur Smith, I understand coming to this conclusion if you're Arthur Blank. Yeah. And I think Arthur Smith also this past season, you saw distress. You saw a little bit of the panic. And I do think the public perception

of him compared to what we know about his relationships in the locker room, I thought Arthur Blank actually touched on that. I thought that was important. And you very rarely see an owner continue to support the guy he just fired, right? And he said, our head coach never lost the locker room. These guys were still playing for them. And players had shared with me, too, over the season that they liked Arthur. So I never sense that that was the problem.

But I do think the pressure, the stress of not getting the quarterback position fixed, the turnovers were killing them. It was killing the staff of just you can't win if you're not taking care of the ball. So in the end, that obviously cost them their jobs. And I love having conversations with coaches that get fired in a few months and just go through mistakes they made because it's hard to take that time, unplug a little, go on vacation, get some sun and just go through that process of reflection. And it's always it's such a, it's always such a great conversation because it's,

there's growth and self-awareness and, um, vulnerability of, yeah, I messed up here. I could have done him better here. I'm sure it's something Frank Reich has been going through at this point now that he's had some time to look back on it. But then again, I'm sure that situation was probably a little bit more challenging when it comes to dealing with that owner. So look, you laid out why the Atlanta a falcons job is in my opinion the top job opening because of all the pieces that you laid out. I know the quarterback position isn't clear right now and it's going to take a lot to find one and get one for in the upcoming draft. But this is this is the team in the background right now that I'm hearing from coaches that

want jobs that have their eye on it. I think they should. I don't think it's being talked about enough though. I don't see it anywhere right now where people are going, this is the job. A lot of people believe that Chargers job is the go-to job. And I had a conversation with a potential candidate for that. And he wants to steer clear of it. So let's talk about this.

Let's compare these two gigs because I'm with you that I think the Falcon's job is very attractive. And it's for two reasons. One, the owner there is aggressive. If you look at the way that they were able to build that team, team, especially in the last few years of the Thomas Dimitrov era, Arthur Blank's got money. He ain't getting any older and he's not afraid to spend it. You are going to have the resources to build this team the way that you want to and a level of aggressiveness that allows you to chase this stuff.

And I think that is attractive. Even if you don't have a quarterback now, I have to assume that Rich McKay, who's the team president there and Arthur Black, are going to give these guys the green light to go do whatever they need to to go get a quarterback. That's encouraging as a head coach stepping into this situation. You still have a healthy cap. You still have a lot of decent players underlying on the roster. You have young pieces.

There's a lot to be encouraged about there. My downsides to the job, two. One, you don't have a quarterback answer right now. And I understand why that might be a little bit scary. Two, it's an arranged marriage with the GM who also may be getting toward the hot seat. Those are the only two downsides. But I think for this job specifically, the positives far outweigh the negatives. Correct.

And there's a lot of reasons why I believe that there are. some people that don't want that charger's job. I don't think first time head coach is going to turn down any opportunity, but any of those potential candidates or coaches that want to make this next step here, why they would avoid the chargers, things that were brought up to me that I think we all saw during Staley's experience here, which is this job was a lot more attractive last year. The charter job last year was when it should have would have been the number one spot. without a doubt. But now they're in salary cap hell. They've got older veteran players and ownership

has yet to really shift away from a reputation that they have around the league, which is that they're not willing to spend. They hate when we talk about it, but I have not heard anything different. That's the, that would be the one thing that I do think that's real. My, my pushback on that would be, look at how they built the roster this year. They were willing to move money around. You don't get $40 million over the cap in 2024 without a willingness to spend on the current roster. Staley was allowed to remake the medical staff. I think there are aspects of who they are, the practice facility that they're building. Like, I don't know how much of that is still real.

I believe the people in the league who know more than me when they say they still have some apprehension about it. But I think some of that shift may be, some of that may be shifting a little bit. I heard you. I heard some confused with how they travel, the way they. They manage equipment. There's been like a lot of just little chatter about how they don't do it the way other organizations do it in terms of the funding to make sure that the staff and the players are getting everything they need with ease. Now, look.

And I think that makes total sense. Chase Daniel said something similar on our show last week, the training room. Like there are little aspects to what the building is like that are a little bit different. And I don't want to dismiss that. But I think in terms of roster construction, they have been willing to do some stuff at least. in the last couple years that might seem a little bit out of character for them. I had someone in the league also share with me that they have to compete in that stadium. Yeah.

In that market. On McVeigh and the Rams who are the popular team that every, you know, he's the golden child or golden man now. It's funny the way people talk about McVeigh is like six months older than me. And they talk about it like he's still in the womb. I know. Well, that's Robert, you're going to see you're far from it. but in a few years, you're going to look around and be like, oh, my goodness, these head coaches and GMs are younger than me.

I'm hitting that point right now. Like Arthur Smith's a year older than me. Like, Arthur, we got to do something about that. Do I look, do I look that? Anyway, we'll talk about that. You're doing great in life and in general. Don't worry about that. Thank you.

Hopefully someone will use a filter on this video for those watching. Unless I need one at this point. You should see what it's like outside right now and how my skin reflects the weather over the last month in Chicago. go. The last thing I'll say about the Chargers job before we move on here, we'll dig into that job, but I think evaluating how good of a job it is, and I think these conversations are always fascinating, people are going to look at the Chargers situation, they're going to look at the cap, and they're going to get so scared off. And I get that, okay, they're $40 million or whatever

that number is over the 2024 cap. I think we've seen teams turn that around much quicker than a lot of people often think. The Chargers absolutely could come into next year and say, we're taking it on the chin. We're going to cut Cleo Mac. We're going to trade Joey Bosa. We're going to cut Mike Williams. We're going to have an astronomical number of dead cap money in 2024. We're going to take one on the chin and take a step back. And we're going to go into 2025 with Justin Herbert, Ray Sean Slater, Zion Johnson, Derwin James, the wide receiver we draft at number five, and $125 million. dollars in cap space. And suddenly that goes from being a nightmare situation to a young cheap core with a superstar quarterback in one year. So I think people looking just at those numbers

in 2024 are getting unnecessarily scared off for the practical realities of what this is going to look like over a two year period. Well, you look at it as do you want to deal with a salary cap slop with a franchise quarterback versus a team that is financially a little bit more settled that is searching for one. And I mean, look at the teams that aren't in the playoffs right now. They don't have quarterbacks with the exception of the Cleveland Browns. I mean, no offense, no, no, no. And that team spent $290 million on its roster this year.

So they have given themselves opportunities in other ways. It's going to be fascinating. But let's keep running through these. The other bit of head coach news from the last 48 hours or so, Ron Rivera out as the head coach of the Washington. I almost said the name. I almost screwed up. We're like two and a half years into this.

that I still haven't done it out as the head coach of the Washington football team. They are also in search of a new head of football operations. That process has begun. And the other thing that came out yesterday is that they're approaching this search process in a pretty interesting way. Reportedly, they've hired former Warriors GM Bob Myers and former Vikings GM Rick Spielman to help kind of captain this search for a new coach and a new GM. And I know there was a lot of interest and curiosity about how Josh Harris and this ownership

group who are from the NBA and have really taken their own approach to how they've built the Sixers and everything else. How would this apply to a football context? And interestingly enough, we are getting our first glimpses into what that looks like. Yeah, and they're doing the work. They've already begun interviews. And this plan has been in place for weeks. This isn't something that it came out. You weren't surprised that this happened? No, no, I was not because I knew from by contacts in Philadelphia that this was part of the process, that this was something that they were going to do, that this was going to be a different approach to the search.

And now look, when you look in sports in general and you, there's a couple examples even in hockey I've seen before and in the NBA where search teams have advisors from different sports and from different, even from corporations that have nothing to do with sports. So this actually isn't that. special or different. It's just we haven't really seen anyone in the NFL space tap into the NBA side of the process. So I think this is just being comfortable with these voices and trying to get

as many different ideas in a room to make the best decision for the identity of what the commanders are going to be, knowing that this is the most important move that they're going to make for their future as as new owners. And really, there's, it's not pressure, but it's, they want to get this right, knowing this is, this is their first bite at the apple of turning this around. The good news is that doesn't have to be that much better from the way it's been over the last few years where, you know, Daniel Snyder wasn't even participating in anything that had to do with the commanders over the last year, which is why Ron Rivera, as you see, the firing of him was done with a lot of class from the commanders

organization, you know, the way they put it out on social media and thanking him because he did wear so many different hats. Now, I was going to say he shoveled a lot of shit over the last few years. You put it more deftly than I did. Owners, he was an owner for a little bit at times. It appeared GM, coach, PR, he did a lot there. And I think he did the best he possibly could give in the hand he was dealt. I know you and I could probably do an entire podcast. on just his coaching and some of the decisions he made that just were very dumb and even some movements on the personnel side. But here they are. It is a fresh start. There is optimism in the Washington area. I can tell you that from just talking to people there and even friends of mine that live there

that are commander fans. And I do think this should be an exciting moment for them. But the direction, the approach that they're having here, casting a wide net and you hear it all the time in this business. Oh, we're casting YNet because that's what they need to say. They are actually doing this right now. And they're actually in the process right now of beginning to discuss the future here at the general manager position and head coach. I want to float a comparison to you and see what you make of this. Okay.

This reminds me a little bit of the end of the Jeff Fisher era with the ramps where they retained Jeff Fisher when they made the move to Los Angeles. there was an understanding that eventually we will move on, but we need an adult who has been through this to kind of oversee what is a somewhat sticky process, even if we know he's not going to be the head coach long term. They fired Jeff Fisher after the 2016 season. A couple slight differences. The Rams made their choice a quarterback the year before Jeff Fisher was fired, et cetera. The Rams retained less need. But I think the similarity is we have a, let's call it a veteran of the NFL space to kind of oversee this. awkward transitional period in our organization.

And then now we have a reset moment. Let's go chase what our long-term answer is. It feels like there are a lot of similarities to that here. And I honestly think Washington with a top three pick, with all of this cap space, with some more draft picks from the trades they made at the deadline, they've set themselves up very well for whatever that next stage of the franchise looks like. And what I love about it is it's self-awareness. It's Josh Harris going, I don't know.

This is my first time being part of something. this big in having the final say on a decision for a football team. Let me make sure that I'm doing this right. And I don't know a lot of owners that would be willing to do that. So I think that this is a positive move. It's certainly a little different, a little outside the box from what we're seeing other owners in the NFL do in their search. But they're also making this very known.

And I thought that was interesting from just a public relations standpoint. Yeah. The transparency involved and just like putting it all out there the way that they have. Correct. They fire Ron Rivera and immediately put out a statement about this search party that they've put together. And they immediately leak all the people that they're going to be meeting with. And that stuff always eventually gets out who teams are meeting with. But just to give you an example, I reached out to another organization during this process yesterday when Washington was doing this. leaking out every single person and candidate that they were going to hope to sit down with. I reached out to another organization basically saying, hey, would you mind sending me your itinerary for the next few weeks of who you're going to talk to, who you put your request in,

and this person who has a lot of juice in this organization says to me, yeah, we're not doing that. I'm not giving you our list. It's going to, like, and I was a little embarrassed, actually, that I was so aggressive with it. But he's like, no, what we'll do is we'll interview these guys and then we'll officially put out and, you know, leak it or publicly put out that we conducted these interviews. But what do you think is the reason for that order of operations that Washington has followed that the Panthers have followed? Do you think that's just a messaging to the fans of look at all of the work that we're doing to fix this for you? Absolutely. And they need to do it.

These are the two organizations that need it most. you had an owner throwing a drink out of fan a week and a half ago. He needs to show everybody that he's at least. And it would be the 20th worst thing that the previous Washington owner did during his tenure. I can't believe Dan Sliner never did that actually. I was, you know, I was obviously shocked when I saw the video of TEPA, but in my mind, I'm like, I think I've covered a story like this before. Let me go back to my Washington days up.

Nope, not not on my bingo card. But yeah, the desperation that these two teams have, you know, headed into this new season with what they're hoping to be better, they need the public support and belief that they're doing this the right way. Whereas other organizations around the league, they don't need that. There's hope that they can get it right. So let's go through some of these candidates because I'm curious about why the list looks how it looks and just some of the information about some of these. guys. So they have had six guys officially, and some of these are going to be rolling in as we record this, but these are the lists as they currently exist. Aaron Glenn, Lions Defense Coordinator, Ben Johnson, Lions Office Coordinator, Mike McDonald, Rahim Morris, the Rams defensive

coordinator, Anthony Weaver, who is the Ravens, Assistant Head Coach and Defensive Line Coach, and Dan Quinn. A lot of these names, expected names, Ben Johnson, Mike McDonald, Dan Quinn. I would argue that Rahe Morris is, I mean, he's probably one of the most qualified candidates in this entire cycle when it comes to his background, the job he's done. since his last head coaching job, et cetera. Two guys that I think to the general fan, they may be a little bit surprised based on that person's track record

or their anonymity. You reported, I think, last week that Anthony Weaver was somebody who would be getting head coaching looks as part of this cycle. Why is that the case maybe for people who don't know as much about Anthony Weaver in his background?

Yeah, so he has been on the Raven staff for the last few seasons. He's the assistant head coach there. And most people, people know him really more from his time in Houston where he was working with JJ Watch, David and Clowny, where they really have some of their best years. Those are fun teams. I actually really like those teams.

They were. That room was cool. I remember covering them. They were a fun group. I remember covering their playoff game in New England when they had all those guys together. And it was Clowny, Whitney Merciless, Devin Clowny. And the way that they deployed those guys, even in that playoff game against the Patriots, I was at that game.

And I remember watching those three on the field at the same time. And I was like, I like this team. This team's got juice, man. Monsters, those guys. You know, and I remember when I was, would be in a locker room with them. And Weaver, granted, was their position coach. But he might as well been out on the field with them. They had that type of relationship.

So he's easily been a player coach. And just from spending time around him over the years from Houston and even in Baltimore, when I've covered them, he has a. really confident presence about him. First of all, he's a large human being. He's a former player. He was drafted by the Ravens in 2001. He just has a lot of respect from people around the league,

the way he carries himself, the way he conducts his business, really classy human being just to deal with. But also just from the coaching side of it of just his football, intelligence, his work ethic, you just hear all the great things when you hear about Anthony Weaver. And this has been forever. And the last few seasons, he's been getting more attention. And I think this is the year where I think he's blowing the doors off in terms of getting owners to pay attention and general managers to see that he has this potential. John Harbaugh loves him, loves him. I know Weaver's been responsible for some

pregame chats with the team the night before the games. He's been appointed as being the one to kind of lead those conversations. So just a lot of good leadership skills. I think he has shown. And I think he could be just a really good head coach or even defensive coordinator if he gets that opportunity. And Aaron Glenn would be the other one where you look at the Lions defensive results over the last couple of years.

But everyone that you talk to who's ever spoken to Aaron Glenn is impressed with Aaron Glenn. I'm impressed with Aaron Glenn after talking to Aaron Glenn. And he was a part of some of these searches last year. And I know he made a real impression on the Colts specifically when he was part of that interview process. So I'm not surprised to see his name as part of this cycle and moving forward. You look at that list, the NFLPA put out last week about the top five coordinators per their players. And he was right there near the top of that list.

So even if the maybe on-field results, the metrics, everything else in alignment with the Lions defense aren't the most impressive, I'm not going to be surprised to see his name as part of some of these searches. Let's make this point too, Robert. When your team is winning, the opportunities for these coaches, the stock immediately goes up. Totally. Let's take the example of the Bengals, right? Louana Ruma was the hottest candidate last year. And that has completely changed this year.

And it shouldn't, right? Because he's still a really good coach. And he's got to get opportunity. But you look at this Baltimore model right now. now it's that's what everybody wants so you're going to see a lot of those coaches obviously the defensive corner of mike macdowell he's going to get an opportunity uh todd munkin's going to get opportunities he's already getting requests for interviews around the league so you win i hope todd mackett becomes a head coach it'd be all endlessly entertaining how how how i almost want to

say how did we get here i i mean i spent show like three or four shows on get up when i was at espn talking about why Todd Munkin is going to be a failure. And now he's had nothing but success. We've seen the best version of Lamar Jackson. And he has potential to be a head coach. I mean, what an incredible job he's done this year. Let's run through the GM candidates or the president of football operations candidates that they've been talking to. Mike Barganzi is the chief assistant GM, Gwen Cook, who is the assistant GM and VP of player

personnel for the Browns, Ian Cunningham, the Bears assistant GM, Adam Peters, the 49ers assistant GM, Alec Cali, the Eagles assistant GM, and Will McLeigh, who's the Cowboys VP of Player Personnel, a list that is not surprising when you think about the candidates that were probably going to be up for some of these jobs. The names that I would point out that I find interesting, I would say three of them. Ian Cunningham, who is somebody who came from the Eagles before he got to Chicago, he was in conversations to be GM last year, despite some of the Bears' struggles and inconsistency, however you want to describe that.

I think he's a hot name. Adam Peters is somebody who, his name has been bandied a lot, a lot. in these conversations, but he declined interview requests last year. So maybe we're entering a different space with him. Alec Calabee is an analytics guy with a deep analytics background, which should not be necessarily surprising when you consider the direction that Josh Harris has gone with some of his other teams. And the fact that Will McLeigh is a part of these conversations, even though he acts as the de facto

GM essentially for the Cowboys, I think is worth paying attention to. I think it would require a lot to lure him to a job like this. and this is a sign to me that Washington is going to do what they need to do to lure the right candidate to this gig. Correct. And the Adam Peters one is the one I agree with you. He is a name in NFL circles. I have been hearing for years in any conversation I've ever had with Adam.

He loves being in San Francisco, aka nothing has been right for me yet. I haven't, there hasn't been an offer that makes me want to make this move just yet. And also I think he was aware and is aware of what he had in San Francisco and has in terms of them being able over the last few seasons having chances to win a Super Bowl. And that's obviously what they were trying to trying to achieve. So I do think his name is going to just continue to get hotter and hotter. And the commanders are certainly very interested in trying to get him. And also even just the connections. we know this business is so small.

But I think Washington is not going to want to miss out on him for sure. Let's go to the Panthers who are in a very similar position like we just outlined throughout a half a million candidates that they're interviewing, which I'm okay with, by the way. If we're trying to learn from previous cycles, the way that the Colts approached their head coach search last year where they interviewed, I don't know, what was it, a dozen candidates? And they interviewed multiple people a second time. they were really meticulous about the process. And I talked to multiple people who were a part of that interview process with the Colts.

And those people, even that didn't get the job, came away very impressed with how the Colts approached this. And I think that the thoroughness that Indianapolis took to that process was ultimately a real positive for them. They got Shane Steichen out of it. They're headed in the right direction. So teams taking a similar approach and the level of care that they're putting into this. I don't think that's a negative. I actually think that trying to mimic what the Colts did last year, something more teams should be trying to do.

Yeah, and I've heard this as well in terms of that process. But the thing is though, I want to, and this is something I want to dig on over the next few weeks. I want to learn more about what it looks like in the meeting. Oh, 100%. What are the top questions? I've heard stories where they've gone around the room. and each explain what they do and go into layers of what their responsibilities are, those being the ones interviewing the candidate and ask the candidate specifically how they would do

their jobs, right? So if a GM is sitting with a candidate, you say, okay, if you were the GM, how would you, what would you do here? Just to, which the person is not even interviewing for that job. It's all crazy, the questions that are asked. It reminds me of the combine a little bit. I know. I'm not sure the Colts last year had them go through game management choices.

Correct. As part of that interview process where they actually were queuing up game situations and asking, okay, there's this much time left. You're down by this. This is it. What would you do here? Why wouldn't you do that? I love that.

It's fascinating because that's the job and that's what you don't do as a coordinator. I told an owner to bring me into those interviews and have me ask questions. Like to be like the pretend reporter to see how a candidate could handle ridiculous. He didn't give me a yes or no, but he definitely seemed to be true. I'm trying to get some sidework around here, Robert. I appreciate the hustle. I'm really trying to get in so I can go report who they're talking to. The candidates, though, for the Panthers jobs, head coach specifically,

I said this yesterday. This is the list I would expect from a team that wants an offensive-minded head coach. This cycle specifically, there aren't that many. proven obvious offensive head coach candidates that are play callers. Ben Johnson's going to be at the top of this list. But the other names involved here for the Panthers, Brian Callahan from the Bengals, Bobby Sloick from the Texans, Frank Smith from the Dolphins.

These are the names I expected to be part of these searches for teams that were leaning offense. And again, a lot of these defensive coaches, Dan Quinn, Mike McDonald, some of these guys that are going to be a part of all of these searches, Rahim Morris. But if you're leading offense, which I think the Panthers, there's are. This is the list that I would expect as part of that process. Yeah, they're leading offense, but from what I was told in terms of what they're valuing is that leadership role. You know, you hear it over and over. And, you know, when you asked me earlier about Anthony

Weaver, that's the type of person I think of when you're saying, you know, someone who can come in here and set a tone firmly install an identity. Those are things that are going to be important to a lot of these owners. But when you look at what the Panthers had been through and everyone knowing that Bryce Young needs help here, it makes all the sense of the world why he's going after Ben Johnson. He's his number one choice at this moment. They're going to do all the work and meet with everybody.

And we'll see if that changes and we'll see what other opportunities then we'll get eventually or if he has Murray in the background. but I don't get a sense that the Panthers are going to go after Jim Harbaugh. It could happen. It could easily happen. They've already had conversations during the last hiring cycle. But that is not a feel I'm getting from Carolina, that he's the person that they think, that they want to come through.

And same thing with Bill Belichick, if he were to be available. I don't get to feel that that's the direction they want to move in. Well, we'll talk about Jim Harba on a second with another one of these openings. somebody said something yesterday in response to that list that I found interesting and wanted to talk about a little bit. They said, this seems like a list of play callers, not culture builders. And I don't think those things have to be mutually exclusive. If you look at some of the guys around the league who've really elevated their teams as play callers, two that I would point to specifically, honestly three, that I would point to specifically,

that that would be the profile they had coming into the job, but I don't want to dismiss the level of culture that they've put together. Sean McVeigh, Mike McDaniel, and Kevin O'Connell. Those guys, I think, represent kind of this new wave of younger coaches that kind of thrive on communication and what that communication looks like two ways with their players. That's culture. Just because they happen to be really good play callers doesn't mean they're not building a specific type of culture.

And I think Frank Smith specifically, if you've ever heard the way that he communicates, the way he talks about ideas, the way his players talk about him. Just because this guy's coming in from a high-flying kind of new wave innovative offense doesn't mean that you're eschewing the culture side of this if you make that higher. And I just wanted to talk about that because I think people bucket these things in too broad of terms too often. Correct. And even the approach of offense or defense, some people are resistant fans will hear,

oh, you know, why would they be interviewing a defensive, minded coach when we have this quarterback and but but and it's it's not about so much the idea of what they can do in terms of the exes and knows it's the culture builder that that you point to and you look at mike macdainiels right like he he's the perfect example there were some question marks about can he build a culture is he able to do is he just the genius you don't have to be built like dan campbell to build the culture i think that's i think that's what people are misconstruing here i think it's like a physical thing, right? Like, you have to be a large man to establish identity. Now, look, the two biggest men in football have done a really good job with that, right? Mike Rable and Dan Campbell.

Mike Ravel and Dan Campbell. I think they are able to establish it because they will literally kick your ass if you don't know what they say in the area. I don't want to dismiss that. That is potentially real, but it's not the only way you can do it. Yeah, they are both very scary human beings. I understand it. But small, short people can do it. Shaw, McVeigh is. to my shoulder. My peddina is up to maybe my neck. You know, it doesn't matter. And I'm not tall. And that's not a shot at them at their height. It's just, uh, all right, maybe a little shot. But it doesn't matter. It's not about that. Um, I do think that a lot of owners right now are, are trying to understand to try to get ahead of what's next. The Sean McVatry has obviously been

been successful. It's been picked over though. But, but, but where, who is the next Sean McVeigh, right? That's what that's what they're looking for. And that's where I'm interested to see who do they think that's going to be. Is it really picking off this Ravens tree? And I'm curious if that's the case. And the model that people start chasing, I think, is worth paying attention to. As we get to the GM candidates, I don't want to talk about all of them because there's so many of them.

I think that there are 10 guys that they've thrown out there. But I do think that the types of guys that they've said they're interviewing, that's worth paying attention to because it shows me they're going in a specific type of direction with this job. So if you look at a couple of them, Mike Greenberg,

who is the Bucks assistant GM, he is in charge of the salary cap for the Bucks. That is what he has done. And he's done a fantastic job in that role. Kai Harley is the one who does all of the cap magic for the Saints. So you have two cap guys. Brant Tillis,

who is the chiefs VP of Football Operations, Brandt has a cap and analytics background. So a lot of these guys that they're hiring, Alic Calabee, who we talked about before, he has an analytics background as the Eagles assistant GM. So a lot of these guys that they're talking to aren't these dyed and the wool scouts that are often chased for this job. And I think that that's worth paying attention to.

If you look at this list, in my opinion, the Panthers are sending a signal that they want a certain type of person to be running their organization. Yeah, I think they have in mind people that they want in place to run a certain part of their organization. So they're making it very apparent that that's what they're going to do based on this candidate list. I thought this was also really interesting.

I talked to a few agents that represent these general managers and head coaches about how they present to owners. And they all try to do different, they all different styles of how they present their client. A lot of people will do PowerPoint. presentations with slides. I had one agent share with me that they do almost like a behind the scene video. It's like a 30 minute show about this person, who they are, what they're about, what

their family life is like. And it's almost like a, it looks like a mini, I saw a clip of it. It's like a mini reality show. That's so interesting. I had another agent and I loved this idea and I listened to it, a podcast. And what this agent did was he interviewed his client. He had someone interview the client, the coach, and then interview people that have been around this person as well as players,

just specifically. And they just told the story of who this coach is while peppering in thoughts and opinions from those that have been around him and have spent time with him in the NFL, along with family. And it was an easy listen. and I actually popped it on in my car while I was sitting in traffic and I'm like, this is actually brilliant. It's a different way to say.

So they're getting really creative with how they're selling their clients. And I wonder if it works because, I mean, I know for a fact that two that I saw, the reality show and the podcast, they all have interviews already. So it's working. But I just thought there'd be interesting for those listening of like, these are ways that some little coaches are. 100%. That's fascinating. And how they're getting in the door.

I think that's exactly the type of thing that is worth bringing up at this stage of the calendar and when this cycle is roaring and in full effect. Let's talk about the Chargers. We alluded to this in the previous conversation about the Panthers. They're not interested in Jim Harbaugh. In my opinion, they've had eight guys they put in requests for. A lot of these same names that we've been talking about, two different ones we have not mentioned. Did you say the Chargers are not interested in Jim Harbaugh?

No, no. I've said they should be interested in Jim Harbaugh. I was saying that they should be interested in Jim Harba. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll clarify that, ready? The Chargers are very interested in Jim Harbaugh. The Panthers may not be. The Chargers are, and I think should be.

They have a list of about eight people, two names that we have not mentioned so far as part of the other searches, but I think are absolutely guys that should be talked to as part of this process. Steve Wilkes, the 49ers defensive coordinator, who probably should have had the Panthers job, and Patrick Graham, who has done a phenomenal job with the Raiders defense this year. despite that team spending less on its defense than almost any other organization in the NFL.

All of that being said, I understand the interest and connection to Jim Harbaugh specifically and why he is an interesting candidate for this job. Why do you think the Chargers specifically are interested in Jim Harbaugh? I think they 100% know that they need a complete franchise makeover, that they need to bring in someone to set the stage for what they, want to be what they want to look like get the fans excited and win and get the best out of justin herbert and we know that jim harba has very high opinions of justin herbert uh i think it would be a good marriage and it's just going to come down in my opinion to whether or not

the chargers are going to be willing to spend money to get jim in that building and and do you think it's partially are they willing to give him the keys to the castle yeah because the guys that they've hired over the last 10 years, 15 years when they've hired these jobs. Anthony Lynn, Mike McCoy, Staley had one year as a defensive coordinator. These are guys that were not wielding a ton of power and cachet as they walked into these jobs. That is not going to be the case if you hire Jim Harbaugh in this situation. So I think that would be a departure. Every team that has interest in Jim Harbaugh has the belief that they're hiring a star. And that's what they want, right? Well, we're going to probably get to the vacation.

year in a little bit. It's why they have interested in Jim Harwood. They, they're looking for that. And here's, we know the reputation of Harbaugh. He can rub you the wrong way after a few years, but the guy wins. We saw it on Monday night. We've seen it in Michigan. We saw it in Stanford. We saw it in San Francisco. So I believe that the Chargers are going to try to do absolutely everything they can to make sure that this can work. Now, I do know that dischargers are turning over every single rock. They're another team that's not just saying it. It may not be as public right now,

but they are doing the work in the background right now and just having conversations with agents all over the place, things that haven't even been reported in terms of their interest in coaches and perhaps bringing them there, or at least getting a, a meeting with them to try to be different and try to really take advantage of this time right now, an opportunity and pick the brains of as many people as they can. The one question I had, you and I were talking a little bit about this yesterday, about Jim Harbaugh

is who are the coordinator is going to be? Because when you're hiring a lot of these other offensive-minded head coaches, that guy presumably is going to be the play caller. Jim Harbaugh has been out of the league for a while. And if you look at the success that he had in San Francisco, Vic Fangio was his defensive coordinator. The guy that has become the prototype archetype that everyone in the league is chasing is the guy that Jim Harbaugh brought with him from college when he got that San Francisco job.

And Jim Tom Sula. And Jim Tom Sulla was there. And then Jim, Greg Roman, who, you know, Greg Roman's had a winding path since then. But Greg Roman did a very good job specifically for what that Niners team was in the moment. And I think it could be easy to say, all right, this guy's coming from college.

He can have a sense of what, types of coaches to bring with him, et cetera. But if you look at what's happened in Michigan, Mike McDonald, who I picked as the assistant coach of the year on the podcast that we're going to do tomorrow, he was Michigan's defensive coordinator last year. And so Jim Harbaugh has shown a very good sense for what types of coordinators to bring in. He obviously has a lot of ties with his brother who is

deep in that coaching world in the NFL. So this feels different to me with a college coach coming to the league of what type of staff he can build and how in tune he is with the right type of staff because Jim Harbaugh's background and level of expertise is just a little bit different. And where is he going with this, knowing that his time has been in college and he's familiar with the fabric of of that level. It's been a while, right? You know, I discuss it's been almost eight years since he's been in the NFL. He's good relationships in terms of those that he is close to in the league and he's loyal from what I hear of, you know, it's not like he just went dark on on assistance and people in

the NFL. He still has those. It's the league has changed since Jim has been here. And is he going to have a great sense of the best coordinators at this moment? And I'm curious who he's going to put around him to find out that information and to assist with this. So this is stuff we're going to learn. It's probably the next 24 hours as we know that teams are going to do what they can to try to get him on the phone to meet with him, whether that means sending their plane to go get him, or have him come to L.A. or Washington, wherever it is. But it'll get leaked who he's bringing on,

and I cannot wait to find out. The other thing I wanted to ask you about Jim Harbaugh, you mentioned him understanding the fabric of the college game and obviously being well suited to the college game and how much the leak has changed in the eight years since he was out. personality was as the coaches around the league have gotten younger maybe a little bit more kumbaya the relationships with players have changed a little bit do you think there's any sort of apprehension or any sort of concern about what a jim harbaugh led building and jim harbaw's personality

how it aligns with current day NFL players i have belief that he has the the ability to almost chameleon. I do. I think he obviously has his own way of doing things, but he can connect. And I remember being in San Francisco when he was there. And it wasn't great back then when the last time I was there. But he has a way. He just, he does.

And that's what makes him special and unique. He is a leader. People are drawn to him. you just have to have the stomach for him if you want to work with him and work around him. I don't necessarily. That's kind of what I'm picking it. Like, do I think that it can work? Yeah.

Do you think in this current climate, it's set up for success? I don't think it's going to be easy. I think it's going to be a transition for sure. and there may be challenges, but I look at it as he's coming from a place of advantage because he's been around younger.

It's a great point. Emotionally immature athletes that just... I don't know, man. You watched JJ McCarthy last night. That kid seems like he's got a shit together. I mean, he's just going to say he made me 40. He made me feel bad about the way I approach my life.

That's what I'm saying. Don't you. that when you're like, gosh, how old are you? You are so much brighter than I ever was at your age. And by the way, that was not me. I was just being, I was holding against these young athletes their ages. But in terms of life experience, they just don't have it yet. So if Jim has been able to find ways to get the most out of them and connect with these, this generation that I have no idea what they're interested in and what consumes their bring. at this point outside of their phones.

It may be refreshing to be around professional athletes again for him. And I wasn't, when I was posing this question, it's a genuine question because I think that that is going to be something that's worth thinking about if you're one of these teams making the decision, but I could understand it going both ways. And I think that exposure to kids, that age, kids, that exposure to players that age and having to work with them.

I think that's actually a very good insight and something I did not consider Okay, let's run through a few more of these here because there's a lot of stuff that I think is still hanging in the balance. You mentioned Jim Harbaugh potentially and the Raiders. So the Raiders have not put out this list of candidates that they're going to talk about like everyone else has. We know that Antonio Pierce did a very good job as the interim head coach there. He is in the mix. What is the sense that you get for which direction the Raiders want to take this search? I really believe that Mark Davis is struggling with what he wants to do.

But in the end. I get it. But in the end, we'll go big. I think he believes that Vegas needs a star. And if he watched the national championship, I think he saw what Jim Harbaugh did and said, this makes sense for us. But we need this kind of draw.

We need this kind of person in this building. Everything Antonio Pierce has done. And I do think he has the inside track. I do. Because he's been there. The support is outwe. from the players, from the football minds around him, guys like Tom Coughlin. He's brought in all these advisors to help ensure that everything runs smoothly.

And look, he's learning on the job. He is. And he's doing everything he possibly can. And this is so much credit to Antonio Pierce to make sure that he has all almost not necessary training wheels, but only equipment around him, so to speak, to ensure that he stays on the right track and does this. right way. The question that I have is, is that turning Mark Davis off when he can just bring in a man that may have all those tools already in his tool set? And the players seem to

love Antonio Pierce. And the reaction that he has garnered from those players, I'm sure Mark Davis, who, as far as my understanding, I don't know Mark Davis, but as far as I understand it, he has relationships with players. He talks to players. He's taking maybe not, maybe not advice. but definitely soliciting the opinions of the players in that locker room. And from the outside looking in, it feels like the sense in that locker room is we really like what we have here right now. He has Raiders alumni in his ear. He's got people connected to that organization for years talking to him about it.

And a lot of people are on the side or in the camp of you should hire Antonio Pierce. You know, whenever you hear, oh, the players want him. you're seeing it in Chicago. You're hearing the support of a locker room. We've been doing this a long time. I think it carries weight. I don't think it carries as much as you would think. Yeah, I think that makes sense.

I think in the moment owners see it as almost an emotional attachment, a feeling of unity, and it's temporary. Whereas they're thinking big picture. They're thinking Super Bowl. Can this person get us to a Super Bowl? That's the question that a lot of owners are asking. And I don't necessarily know what Mark Davis is thinking in terms of Antonio Pierce, if that's it.

Let's get to a couple more of these where we're still waiting on some answers, some clarity. Two that I have in mind, one, the Titans. And what's going to happen with Mike Vrable, what the future is there for that staff? What is the latest and what sort of insight can you provide about what the conversations look like in that building right now with Tennessee? Yeah, I feel like we just spent a lot of time on this podcast. ripping through the places that have clarity.

And now we're going to discuss a team that has no idea what's going on. There have been no decisions made. I've spoken to many people in that organization over the last 48 hours. From my knowledge, there hasn't been any meeting yet with Mike Reble and ownership where they discuss what the future is going to look like. And this is, you know, Tuesday morning, 11th. o'clock Eastern. No one has shared with me that they have sat and met and discussed what the future holds.

And there's, it's quiet there right now. They don't know. Is it, does that feel strange? This is the most bizarre situation in the NFL right now. And all eyes are on New England right now because it's Bill Belichick. Of course. There's just uncertainty there as well.

But this one's close in terms of, I have no idea at this moment what's going to happen. Are you leaning one way or the other? I'm leaning towards Mike Briebel getting fired because this team's unwillingness to put out this fire. I have attempted to try to get someone to tell me that, look, things are going to change. There's going to be someone else either brought in or perhaps power is going to shift

here where you know we're going to strip mike rable of any um influence he has on roster or we're going to have rancarthon uh be in charge of something else on top of no one will share any information about what they believe is going to be the future there the fact that they think that's necessary i think tells you a lot and unscrewing and entangling what already exists there when you've established what the roles of the head coach and the GM are and not doing anything to change the people in the room, that seems like it's going to be very, very difficult to undo. Yeah, and it's already, it already was an arranged marriage. Ran Carthon came from the San Francisco 49ers as just the new GM. My variable had his

thoughts as to who he wanted as the GM and Ran Carthon. He just didn't even know him. But in terms of relationship from everything I gather, their relationship seems fine. It wasn't a situation where they weren't getting along or they had different views, different philosophies. I don't, that was never explained. It was never explained to me that way. It was always, in fact, the other way where yeah, they're cool. So why would they do this? What do you think that they're afraid of? Why would they make this move if the relationship between those guys seem sound? I want to make this clear. Six weeks ago, I spoke to high-ranking officials in that building who shared with me that Mike Rable was a part of their future, that they consider him to be a top five NFL head coach. Okay.

So what changes in six weeks? Is it the losing? Yeah, they lost a lot. They beat the doffins. And you could argue there were some coaching game situations that happened in that happened in that. game with him deciding to go for two that helped them win that game they hadn't this roster compared to the miami dolphins roster compared to the jackson uh to the jags roster that we saw on sunday it's not in day with what they're working with there he's a top five head coach this is a bottom five roster correct

that's a that's probably a good way to put that's a much better way to put it of top five head coach with the bottom five um roster that needs to get better it has to improve or else they're going to continue losing. And if ownership believes that Mike Verbele is not the right guy to turn this around, they obviously have that right, but I can tell you in that building talking to players who have reached out to me in the last 24 hours trying to get answers, you know, they want him there. And I think he's proven over the years that he's a really good coach.

It's does ownership want him to be. the coach that has the power and is really the identity of this team. Yeah, I think you're head of the organization. Yeah, and I think that's where the issue is. The fact that they don't know, though, and the fact that ownership is staying quiet right now and not sharing what the future holds, I think also tells you how he views this current coaching staff.

You think he'd get hired immediately by someone else? I haven't had any conversations with any teams that believe that variable will actually be available, which is really interesting, right? Because sometimes I think the way one team views their coach compared to what the rest of the league does is sometimes a little different. Yeah. I've seen the other way, too, where a team loves a coach and the rest of the league is like, what are they doing? Like, that guy stinks. But in this, I mean, they're a good group there and they know how good he is.

I've had conversations for years when I've covered this team. They know what they have. It just has it run its course. And I think that's what it's going to come down to. And it's where it's what organization wants a Mike Vrabel type. I believe that though. I believe if he's truly going to be available. If we find out with the next few days that you're going to see him get interviews.

And he may be, he could possibly bump out a lot of these candidates that have the inside track here and have a good shot. If you're the Chargers, if you're the commanders. And it's Mike Rable versus a coach that's never, a candidate that's never been a head coach. Who are you going for? Yeah. And I think that's going to be the thing. these teams have to weigh it's going to be absolutely fascinating one of the teams that he was in line

to potentially with the conversation was let's say mike variable is available let's say this team moves on was the new england patriots and that is another situation that has been so intriguing over the last 24 hours bill bellichick comes out yesterday and does a press conference and it sounds like he's willing to potentially make some concessions in some areas of his job if he would remain the head coach there, but this is another situation where we have very little clarity about how this is going to unfold. So what is your sense right now as we talk on Tuesday morning about what ultimately is going to happen in New England? I read it as your move, Robertcroft. I read it as fire me. You're going to fire me. I read it as that. I read it as I read it as I want

to be here, but I'm not giving up a dollar. I am not resigning. I am not stepping away from my contract you're going to pay me because you're going to fire me he did mention yesterday that he was under contract very interesting right and and anyone that is close to bill has always said bill likes money and that's he's just like all of us uh the first thing i can connect the bill on um but i do think you you don't love lacrosse and uh and and navy special teams and those those aren't particular interests of yours I couldn't get into Wesleyan. I'm sure this shocks the listeners based on my vocabulary.

So, look, I also read that as a message to other teams. I don't need all the roster control. I'm open. I'm an open-minded 71-year-old. I am willing to do whatever it would take. So there's a lot of smart chess being played right now. But the question you asked was, what do I think is going to happen here? What's my sense?

I do think this is over. I just don't know how. Yeah. And I think that's what we've been saying for a long time, right? And that we felt like this was probably coming to an end. It would just be a matter of how some of the semantics were worked out. Yeah. And it does feel like we've arrived at that moment.

So what happens if they do end up firing him and the decision that the organization goes after that? We've talked about this, you and I. Do they go for a different model of GM? Do they go outside of this tree and this family and reset the way their personnel department works? They've been retaining Gerard Mayo for a while and giving him little bumps and acknowledging his importance to the coaching staff. Do they have an in-house replacement ready if they ultimately move on from Belichick?

So I think those are the questions looming over this beyond what Belichick's future looks like specifically. Yeah, I don't have any information as to who the top candidates are. for the Patriots at this moment. And, you know, there's been so many, there's been a lot of chatter about who they would go after. And I think it's probably difficult for them to even get to that point. Sure.

I know they have feelers out. And I, and, you know, you mentioned the whole variable back to New England. I have not, I don't have any information as to whether or not the Patriots reach out to, to Vribal's agent or has had conversations. I'm sure they have a good relationship. You can't help but think of the time when CBS showed the Patriot Ring of Honor where Vribal was up there in the box in the suite with the owner. That was wild and an interesting move.

But you'd have to think that they would at least have a conversation with Rabel if he's available. and, you know, if they'd be willing to even maybe make a trade for him, I don't know if they're, if they would, but you got to figure he's on their radar. Two more situations we're still kind of waiting on because there hasn't been any clarity either way. The first one, Chicago. I know you've been doing a ton of work about this, even over the last couple months, trying to get a sense of what the bears want to do. Is Maddie or flu safe? Are they going to go in a different direction? As things currently stand on Tuesday morning, how are you feeling about that?

I think we're going to have answers probably by Thursday in terms of Matt Eberfuss and whether or not they're going to keep and they're going to retain him or move in a different direction. I think that Justin Fields decision we're going to know later. I don't think there's any rush for that. And they don't need to, quite frankly. So we're going to learn a lot about Chicago soon. And the sense I get is it's closer to him staying. but I could still see them making that change. I know they're taking their time for a reason to make sure that this is actually the direction

they want to go in. We're going to talk a lot about this when they make the decision. Obviously, I have a lot of feelings, thoughts about this being so close to it. I understand bringing him back based on some of the progress that the defense has made. I also think if I were just being completely honest cards on the table, I think it's a low ceiling choice. I think that you are committing to something that while it has shown flashes, you may regret committing to ultimately after the next year plays out. After you go to quarterback, you're still left searching for answers on the offensive side of the ball. Do you bring in a new offensive coordinator?

All of that naughtiness that is going to come along with retaining him, I think that that should send you some signals about whether it's smart to actually retain him. So we'll see what decision they ultimately make. I get the buying into the progress the defense made. the development some of the young defensive players had, the fact that he never lost that building and the players, despite everything else that happened, there is a lot in his column and in his favor for keeping this job. And I think that if they didn't have the number one overall pick,

if there was a chance they didn't draft a quarterback and weren't resetting what the offensive side of the ball would look like, that I would have no problem bringing him back. If Justin Fields were back, I'd be like, okay, fine. But I don't get the sense that Justin Fields will be back. So I think that bringing the staff back and moving some chairs around on the deck offensively for a staff that might get fired, I think that comes with its own risks. I want to go back to what somebody close to Kevin Warren shared with me, which is he makes

unemotional decisions. It's why he's in that position and why he's been appointed to oversee the coaching staff. So if you think about that, he's going to just look at the numbers, the facts, and continually ask himself, can this person get us to a Super Bowl? That's the goal. That's the can they get us to a Super Bowl and we'll see what he comes up with. I don't want to be too harsh about what the answer to that question probably is. Dennis Allen and New Orleans, another one where I was just poking you, I was just poking you.

I appreciate that. You know how I work. Now I'm just going to sit and stew in that for the next hour and think about it as after we finished recording this. Drop these little bombs on you. Dennis Allen and New Orleans, any sense about what happens there after a disappointing season. I mean,

there's no doubt about that. had designs on winning the NFC South. They didn't, you know, despite him not being the coach that blew up after that week 18 game, still think that there are a lot of questions about that building and the players ignoring him and scoring that touchdown at the end. I mean, there are a lot of things. The Saints are probably justifiably weighing in this moment. Yeah, I get the sense that Dennis Allen's going to be safe, that that staff's going to

stay intact. They're going to make some moves on offense. I believe they're going to make some changes there. But overall, that looks to be, there's a belief that Dennis can still get the job done. But that was one of those jobs that I was watching very closely. And there are a lot of examples around the league where we'd be having this conversation, let's say, early November, and the list would be a lot longer in terms of firings. and Dennis Allen was certainly one of those.

So I think he was able to turn this around for himself over the last eight weeks. And obviously the way they finished was not great with the situation with the victory formation, but getting the win is really what mattered. And I think in the end they feel comfortable with him there. A couple of teams that aren't in search of head coaches, but there are some changes coming. The Giants, a lot of moves, especially on the defense. offensive side of the ball. The outside linebackers coach fired. Bobby Johnson, their offensive line coach was fired. And it sounds like Wink Martindale is going to be resigning there as the

defensive coordinator. You know that team well. You cover that team a lot. Just give us a sense of what the last 48 hours have been like for the Giants in that building. It hasn't even been the last 48 hours. It's been this season. It's been about a lot of different personalities, power struggles, conflict in the building with Brian Daibel and his coaching staff. And it started to come to light and there was reports that were flying around this season. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that there are coaches there that are all very strong, you know, strong personalities that want to do things their way. And sometimes it doesn't always work.

And I think Brian Dable has a style that rubs people the wrong way. and now here we are at where, yes, it's great that the Giants aren't firing a coach after two years like they have the previous few years and Brian Dable is staying in his position. But we're seeing a lot of movement. And we're hearing things too that even on the offensive side, there's other coaches that perhaps may not want to be there anymore. So Brian Gable may not have a problem with his own job, but he may have a coach problem and a staff issue with how things are going on. And I know that there is a lot of stress in that building right now. And they're trying to figure this out, even from a public relations standpoint, because it does not look good right now with all these coaches not seeming very happy with how it's going.

I think that rightfully so last year. There's a lot of conversation about Ryan Daible looking outside of his circle of friends as he built that staff and the benefits that come along with that. The Giants overachieve last year. They were a playoff team. He was the coach of the year. In that moment, when everything is going great and everything. things cruising along at their speed exactly how you want it, it's easy to look at that and say, oh, this is a positive. He didn't hire his buddies. They've got this group of coaches. They've

all these different backgrounds and this is really working for them. The flip side of that is when it starts going poorly, you have guys that maybe have their own agendas that are pulling in different directions. And now I think that you're seeing potentially some of the fallout from doing it that way. And that is a pretty big departure from how we were talking about this staff, how it was built and the results at this time last year. It's a team that had a lot of success last year. And this is the concerns that a lot of people around the league were sharing with me in the summer that Brian was going to have a really difficult time when you fall off that

clip because we know how they won those games too, not to take away from their achievements. But the luck fell on their side a lot last year. and have to sit and digest a lot of the reality of this team of what they really truly are. Granted, there were some good parts of it. And they finished the best way you possibly can finish in beating a division of opponent the way they did. But they have a lot of problems that they are going to have to address in this offseason. And I think this is going to be a year that the pressure will be on for both Joe Shane and Brian Dable. on the flip side of this almost the exact opposite situation happening in Jacksonville where

Doug Peterson brought in guys he did know he is a long relationship with press taylor that their offensive coordinator they've worked together in multiple different stops press was an assistant on those teams in philadelphia early in his career the jaggs offense underachieve this year in a lot of different ways the actual infrastructure of the offense and he left a lot to be desired and jaggs fans will tell you that we've talked about a lot about that about that a lot on the show. The Jaguars yesterday retained the offensive coordinator and a good chunk of the offensive staff and fired the defensive coordinator and a good chunk of the defensive staff. So what do you make of Jacksonville sending this message about where it needs to get better after

the season it just had? Are we doing this again? Are we really doing this? This is like the same issues from Philadelphia. And I think what it tells you is, A, Doug is very loyal. Doug is going to stick with what he's comfortable with and what he knows. And whenever you've seen coaches that have a stronger, you know, he's obviously an offensive-minded coach, they never want to be the ones to blame that unit. It has to be the defense, right?

It has to, I can't tell you how many stories I have or head coach calls me on his drive into the facility. And depending on what side of the ball, he is, it's always the other side's fault. It's just how it is. It's just how it is. And it is funny. But this just tells me that they needed a change. They know that they needed a change.

And I don't know whether or not they were told they had to do this. But in Doug's opinion, that wasn't good enough. And look, to his defense, that's defense. But I guess from his perspective, if you're losing to the Tennessee tight, If your defense can't stop whatever that is, there needs to be changed. Yeah. And I understand that. And when your season is as disappointing as this one was saying, we can't have this again,

I still think that there were aspects of that off, that defense is sure where they played really well. And it is funny that some of the same, some of those same hits that they played in Philadelphia are getting played again. And I think a lot of Eagles fans are probably having some pretty bad flashbacks to what that felt like in the moment. And we'll see how that ultimately plays out. They have their own issues.

Yeah, trust me. That's true. They're not worried about that right now. But I'm sure a lot of them are seeing this in passing and being like, I know that song. I've heard that song before. So we'll see how that ultimately plays out with the Jags. Diana Rusini, thank you so, so much. Love these conversations. Always love doing this with you. I know you got a million things going on right now. So I really, really appreciate the time. And we will talk to you very soon. All right. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. That's all we got. Please check back tomorrow. We have our midseason award. I keep saying this. We keep having our end of season award show. with me and Nate giving out all the awards, a lot of really, really tight races this year. So encourage you guys to check that out. That'll be out for you tomorrow morning, along with prospects to pros. And then our wildcar preview will be coming your way Thursday into Friday, along with me and Chase Daniel talking about some playoff stuff,

as well on in the pocket on Thursday. So please be on the lookout for all of that stuff. As always, sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.