The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Brad Childress on Andy Reid's coaching evolution + 10 under-the-radar players to watch in Super Bowl LV

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

Former NFL coach Brad Childress joins Robert Mays to discuss his experience and relationship with Andy Reid and how the Chiefs' head coach has evolved as a play caller, scout and coach overall. But before that, Lindsay Jones brings 10 under-the-radar names and storylines to watch ahead of Super Bowl LV.0:00 - 1:03:04 - 10 players to watch / Lindsay Jones1:03:04 - end - Brad Childress Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Brad Sheldrous is going to be joining us a little bit later to talk about working with Andy Reid over several decades at a few different stops, really illuminating conversation. It was so fun to talk to Brad about working with Andy and seeing him grow and some of the tweaks and just overall approaches they've used in Kansas City here during his second stint as a head coach. Before we do that, though,

I am very excited to welcome Lindsay Jones to the program. Lindsay, how are you? I am really good, Robert. I'm about to get on a plane and head to Tampa Bay or Tampa. I'm not going to get in the Tampa Bay, but I'm flying to Tampa this evening. Ready for whatever shit show is going to be on the ground there in Florida. Not much for a shit show. It's very, very quiet.

There's a random pirate ship in the bay. There's a holographic pirates at the media center that talks. It's very weird. Other than that, though, it's very cold and very windy. here is what I would say. Yes. It's like it was like 50 degrees last night. I went for a walk just to get out of my hotel room and it was 50 degrees and very windy. I was not enjoying it whatsoever. Let's be clear, much better than what's going on in most of America. It is 65 degrees in Denver. So this is shocking information to me right now. Wait until you get here because it is chilly and

windy. I did look to the forecast for this weekend and there's a potential for thunderstorms on Sunday afternoon. So weather could be a factor in the Super Bowl, which I don't think that scares Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes, but certainly not ideal if there's thunderstorms on Sunday. I'm not even kidding, though. This is not a joke. I think if you're the Bucks, you sit there and pray for rain. Because an uglier game, I think, always you give the advantage to the lesser team because it's almost an evening of the playing field if it starts raining. So the Bucks, I think, would be very happy if this got mucked up a little bit. Yeah, let's just no lightning. That's just. No lightning. That's just. Oh, yeah. No. Delays would be miserable, but, you know, we'll be fine. I'll be watching the game in this hotel room. So it doesn't really matter to me. I have a little sweet with big TVs. I was very happy when I walked in. I was like, ooh, the TV set up in my hotel was actually really nice. So I'm looking forward to that. But you will be there. So for you, the delay matters a little bit more. I can go get some food or something. That's not an option for you. Well, I am, despite all this, I am looking forward to getting there, getting on the ground, feeling what's going on. We've got Roger Goodell coming up on Thursday. We've got some other, like, NFLPA officials. And, you know, just to finally kind of get the feel of like what this big game is going to be. But I'm excited for the show before that.

So let's get into it. If you guys are at all wondering what it sounds like to be a dedicated and thorough NFL reporter, it sounds like I'm very excited about Roger Goodell's press conference on Thursday. That's what it sounds like. He's going to be the first person I've, like, interviewed in person since, like, last February. So this is a big deal in my pandemic reporting process. I'm trying to think of who mine would be. I haven't interviewed anybody since the pandemic started in person.

So you're right. That's a huge step forward. Congratulations. I packed a lot of masks for five days in Tampa. But, yeah, it'll be interesting. It's going to be a small group. But, you know, there's been a lot of really pressing issues going in the league right this year. So, you know, we're going to get to...

You are correct to be excited about it. I'm giving you shit, but you are correct. And that is the sign that you are a thorough and diligent professional. Well, thank you, Robert. We're going to be doing something. You're welcome. We're going to be doing something fun today. We talked about this game from so many different angles.

We looked back with Nate and Greg yesterday. We talked about some of the numbers associated with the game with Sheel on Tuesday. You know, we talked with Ryan Lindley about Prussarians. We're talking with Brad about Andy Reid. Me and Nate and Ted are going to be digging into the X's and O's tomorrow. I wanted to talk about the players in this game with you. The specific players that may be a little bit overlooked and I think some of the wider ranging

just implications for some of the bigger name players in the game. So the first thing we're going to do here, we're going to go through the 10 players that people should be thinking about and they should know going to this game, guys that maybe don't necessarily jump out right away. We're going to start with somebody who is a star, but I think means a little bit more

and has a little bit more impact on this game and the way this team is built and everything else. And that's Chris Jones. So you came up with these 10 names. Why did you want to talk about Chris Jones in this context? I mean, I just think he's, well, he's so impactful to what he does on the field and exactly what he means to the chief's defense.

I'm just remembering back to last off season to immediately after the Super Bowl heading into free agency. And the biggest question was, what are the chiefs going to do about Chris Jones? Are they going to tag him? Are they going to sign him? Are they going to tag and trade him? That was definitely a thing that was on the table. and I think a lot of Chiefs fans were wondering if that was going to happen.

And, you know, I always just came back to that he was such a foundational piece. And they were going to have to pay him a lot of money. And ultimately, they did pay him a lot of money. I mean, not quite Aaron Donald money, but they're paying him a lot of money for an interior defensive lineman. But he's just such a core player. And he gives Steve Spagnolo the freedom to do a lot of different things defensively. He provides incredible interior pass rush.

He's very important to everything that they do in their run defense. You have Chris Jones on the front end and then you have Tyron Matthew on the back end who really completely set the tone for that team. Chris Jones is that guy who plays all the way up to and usually a little bit across the line. You can bet that he might get a personal foul a game if they catch it. I mean, we saw he threw a punch in the AFC championship game against Dionne Dawkins. Did not get flagged for it. But it was, you know, you saw it on the broadcast and you saw the clip.

after. So, you know, he definitely walk, he just really, really straddles that line of, you know, could be reckless sometimes, but also is the guy that, you know, they just really feed off of all of his energy and he sets the tone like that nastiness that you, that you really need. He's also a tremendous

quote. He's a huge personality in a team that kind of has needed that and has kind of needed that sort of energy on a defensive side. So I thought it was a really smart move by Brett Veach to give him the money that he did and to keep him. Because when you're talking about run it back and the core pieces and how you are going to build this franchise, yes, they invested a ton of money this off season, both in Chris Jones and in Patrick Mahomes.

But those are two guys that you need and you're going to need to build around for a long time. I think that's all right. I mean, when you look at dynasties, right? Like think back to the Patriots, you have these foundational is the word that you use, these rocks that you build around. And for New England, I think you had the same kind of idea where there was Devin McCordy on the back end and Vince Woolfork on the front end. And we want to talk about Belichick and Brady and all of this. And it'll be the same thing with Mahomes and Andy Reid and the stars the chiefs have on offense. But you need these building blocks on the defensive side.

And I think the choice to bring back Chris Jones is kind of an inflection point for the franchise. Because they were searching for money in their couch cushions to try to figure out how they're going to pay these guys this offseason even before the Mahomes extension kicked in. And Chris Jones was somebody who, you know, talking to people, I thought there was a little bit of hesitation about how he would play. after getting this extension. And that's why he hadn't gotten it earlier when you think about how good of a player he is. And they gave him this deal, and his play has not fallen off at all.

He has been the exact same guy he was before getting this contract. And I want to say he was third in the NFL in pass rush productivity, the PFF stat, which is essentially pressures and disrupted dropbacks over pass rush snaps. And he was behind only Aaron Donald and stuff on to it. That's it. And last year, I think he was second to Donald. So you've seen the exact same kind of impact that he has. And I would say right now, he's probably one of the five to seven most impactful defensive players in the league, in my opinion.

I think that maybe that's a little strong. Top 10 for sure. Because I just think that interior pressure is so important. And among interior defensive players, he really is the second most important and second most valuable player in that area outside of Donald in the entire league. And I also think that like you said, with Mahomes and the whole team. the contract extension and Brett Beach having to make this decision. You know, we've heard that story about Mahomes sending that text message to Chris Jones and saying, I took less.

I took less. Let's do this again. And I just think it, the Jones signing and retaining him and the decision to do that is a symbol of the gravity that Mahomes is going to have for this team over the next decade or so while that contract is going. He's going to have that gravity. He's going to be that force. And I remember thinking about this coming into the season about, the Cowboys' decision to not do this with Dak Prescott. And the Chief's decision to give Patrick Mahomes that deal.

Obviously, it's an easy choice. But I think that having that pillar at the middle of your franchise and having that guy there and knowing that for free agents, the quarterback and the quarterback situation can often be a tiebreaker, it's going to be a place that people want to stay. It's going to be a place that people want to go to. And I think that Chris Jones is the most recent and probably the time. the most impactful example that we've seen of that so far. And then when we talked specifically about what does this mean for the Super Bowl and on Sunday

and why is Chris Jones a guy that you need to know, what's the blueprint of how to disrupt Tom Brady? It's to get interior pressure. Outside pressure helps, but interior pressure is his kryptonite and the thing that could really shake him. And so Chris Jones is critical to that. And when there have been some questions about the exterior or the outside pass rush with the chiefs, just the consistency and we're going to talk about some of these other guys, I think, you know, as the show goes along, you know, Chris Jones is just so critical to what they need to do against Tom Brady to collapse that pocket a little bit. And we know that Tom Brady can get rid of the ball

so extremely quickly. I mean, he's been one of the best at that in NFL history. But that's why that's where Chris Jones comes in, right? He's got to push that pocket. Let the other guys on the outside. Let Frank Clark get some time. Let Alex O'Kerfore, you know, then be able to chase Tom Brady a little bit. So that interior rush, and, you know, I know you've spent a lot of time studying the Bucks offensive line. What do you think about that matchup and how, you know, is there a particular matchup with either with Ryan Jensen at center or one of the guards that you, is it Ali Marpet? Yeah, it's the right guard. I mean, it's Aaron Stinney, who is their backup right guard. And it's been the one spot along the offensive line. That's a real question. I mean, I think they have

three all pro caliber talents along that line at left guard center and right tackle. And Donovan Smith is a serviceable left tackle. The right guard is the one-week spot, and we've seen what Chris Jones can do from that position. I mean, I went back and I just watched a couple just highlight clips of him from the last six games or so today and just some of the plays he made. The immediate penetration that he can get on some of those plays, especially coming off that right-guard spot, he can be dominant. And I think that we absolutely could see that again.

I mean, we're a year removed from him being, in my opinion, the best player. And last year's Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes, included. We've seen what he can do in big games. And I wouldn't be surprised if Sunday was the same sort of thing that we've gotten used to with Chris Jones. So let's stick with that Chief's defensive line and somebody on the edge that you just mentioned. Frank Clark is somebody that you wanted to talk about here. I'm curious why you think that Frank Clark is one of these 10 guys. Well, you know, I think Frank Clark is, you know, he's, we talked about Chris Jones and his personality.

Frank Clark brings that juice. I mean, he is the life. Frank Clark and Chris Jones are the life in that Chief's locker room. If you've ever been around them covering them back in pre-COVID days, I mean, you've heard his press conferences live on the field when he's cursing live with James Palmer on NFL Network. He's wearing a fur coat to his press conference after the AFC championship game last week. But he's kind of disappeared this season. And the Chiefs made a massive move in the 2019 off season to go and get him. They trade, you know, he was tagged by Seattle.

They traded for him. They gave him about a $100 million contract. And there were times in 2019 that they were. were getting a return on that investment. He came up huge in the postseason last year. I believe he had five sacks during the Chief Super Bowl run. He had some really important pressures in the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl last year against San Francisco. But we just haven't seen that consistent play out of him this year. And so actually at times it's been their other past rushers, Alex Okifor and Tano Kapsinyon, whose name I always mispronounce. And I'm so sorry. He's number 92 and he's been really good this year.

and he was chasing Josh Allen around a lot last week. They've actually been more impactful than Frank Clark has at times. So I just want to know if Frank Clark is going to have kind of that extra gear. If we're going to see postseason Frank Clark again. And one of my favorite stories that I did or that I've done for the athletic in the couple of years that I've been here is I went to Von Miller's Pass Rush Summit, the summer of 2019. It was Frank Clark. Frank Clark was there. And it was one of the coolest reporting experiences.

I've ever had because it was literally sitting in a classroom on the campus at UNLV watching film. And it was Aaron Donald was there and Cleas Campbell and obviously von Miller and Melvin Ingram. But so I sat in the back of the room and I sat next to Frank Clark watching Pass Rush film. And when his tape got up there, it was some of the nastiest that you saw. I mean, the stuff that he was doing to Colton Miller was like not safe for work. I mean, it was disgusting. And so, like, you could kind of, like, feel his personality and just the way that he was, the way he was talking shit about all of the left tackles that would come up on everybody

else's film. So I just want to see if he's going to come up big in a big moment. He did it last year in the postseason. We just haven't quite seen it yet. And this is where the chiefs need the return on their investment in Frank Clark. They paid him for big games like this. So that's why I put him on this list is because, because he has the potential to be that guy and to do insanely silly things,

you know, against Donovan Smith potentially. But we just haven't seen it yet this postseason. So here's why I think that Frank Clark is an important kind of name to consider with this. I think that he is a reminder of what the chiefs can overcome. Like, think if you traded a first and second round pick for a guy and then gave him a $100 million contract and had him get four pressures and, 76 past rush snaps in the playoffs. The fan base would be going insane. Any other team, this would be a huge story about the lack of impact Frank Clark has had this

year. I want to say he was 23rd in the NFL in pressures among edge players. Among all players in the NFL this season, he had the 25th biggest cap hit. He had the ninth biggest cap hit among non-quarterbacks. He is paid like a super duper star, and he has not played like that this year. I was wondering because I went back and I watched it. Today I was like, man, why has he been such just a non-factor in the playoffs? And you go back and you watch some of those pastro snaps and it's just, it's not impressive.

He just doesn't have a lot of juice right now. And, you know, it may be a downstretch. And I wouldn't be surprised if he had that big moment on Sunday. But to me, it's so telling that we're not even talking about the fact that we have this guy who has the biggest cap it on this team is making $20 million this year and has disappeared in the postseason. And it just doesn't matter. It just doesn't even matter because of how much talent. they have elsewhere because of what Patrick Mahomes is, because of what this offense is, I just think that is such a symbol of what this team can overcome.

And when you have teams that have all this success, it's really easy to just say, well, they do everything right. You know, they've got this figured out. They have solved the problem. Brett V. Chandy Reid, it's over. You know, they have the equation. They have the answers to the test. In actuality, the chiefs have had their misses like everybody else.

You know, Frank Clark is making $20 million. this year and he has not had that big of an impact. They drafted a running back in the first round this season, and he's been fine. Like, Clydeiard Arbott-Ellar has been fine, but it's not like he's been this incredibly impactful player. They can survive without it. They drafted McColl Hardman with their first pick in the 2019 draft, which they only had a, they didn't have a first-round pick because they traded it for Frank Clark.

And McCle Hardman hasn't really been that guy within the offense, but it doesn't matter. And that's the symbol of what has. having a great, great quarterback, the best quarterback can do for you is all of these little mistakes and all of these little, I'm not calling the Frank Cartwright of mistake necessarily, but these kind of missteps at times just matter less because of what they have offensively. And I just think it's really telling about the blemishes that a guy like Mahomes covers up. And when you have, you know, when you have Chris Jones and you have Tyrone Matthew, where you have, you know, impactful players at other defensive spots, they can kind of make up for,

or if your really high-priced guy isn't quite doing what you need him to do. So, all right, let's move on. Who's your next guy on the list? So I wanted to transition from that because when I was watching Frank Clark a little bit today, and I was going back and watching the Buffalo game, my takeaway from watching Frank Clark during that game

is, holy shit, Juan Thornhill. That was my takeaway. Because, you know, this is a guy who they drafted in the second round two years ago. And as a rookie really seemed like he was coming out at the end of the season. and then tears his ACL in December. And, you know, Ben Solack from the Draft Network, who does a great job.

If you guys don't follow Ben on Twitter, you absolutely should. You should follow his work. He wrote about Juan Thornhill this week and did a kind of film piece on him on Twitter. And he just pointed out that in the second half of the season, you know, kind of in the back half of the year, one Thornton Hill almost got benched. It was clear that he had not gotten all the way back from that ACL injury kind of about a year after suffering it. And he came along slowly, and they really kind of. of threw him back into the fire here, and his impact in that Buffalo game was undeniable. And I just think that that sort of contribution from a guy like Juan Thornhill, from a guy like

Ligerius Sneed as well, that what they've gotten from some of those back-end contributors that were not first-round draft picks, Thorno was a second rounder, but just the overall contributions they've gotten from those second, third, fourth-round picks here over the last couple years, that is another way to overcome something like Frank Clark not giving you everything you expected from him when you made that big trade for. But so I think what the important thing to me when you look at Juan Thorn Hills, one, they missed him last year during the playoffs. I mean, going into the Super Bowl and that postseason run last year, that was one of the big

questions we had was like, how are they going to replace this guy? And we had to see a lot of Daniel Sorensen. And we're going to still see Daniel Sorensen. He is a part of a lot of their defensive packages. and he always manages to be around the ball in kind of crucial situations. You always kind of hold your breath. Like you don't necessarily want Daniel Sorensen around the ball. And then all of a sudden he forces a fumble.

And you're like, oh, yeah, Dan Sorensen, of course. That's what Nate was saying yesterday, trick-or-treat Dan Sorenson. I love that. It was funny. He was getting like, oh, dirty Dan after he, like, arguably had that really dirty hit in the Browns game that forced that fumble, that then became the touchback. I digress. But I just think it's interesting the way that the chiefs and Brett Veach and Andy Reid have gone about trying to kind of rebuild the secondary because that was the biggest question about this defense for years was they're going to give up a ton of points. They don't have anybody that can cover and the cornerbacks are going to be liabilities and the safeties are liabilities.

And now of a sudden when you have Tyron Matthew and Juan Thornhill, you have one of the better safety duos in the league. I really like the safety duo that the Bucks have, although there's some major injury questions heading into this game with those guys. But they're just such a nice duo. And then you throw in Ligerius Sneed, who's this rookie cornerback. He has cleared the concussion protocol. He was not able to play an AFC championship game. But he's another one of those guys who, you know, wasn't a super high draft pick, but just seems to come up with clutch plays.

You know, go back to week one, making his, you know, his NFL debut against the Texans. And he intercepted Deshaun Watson in that game. And you're like, oh, maybe. maybe they have something and he has done that week after week after week, you know, rookie cornerbacks are going to have some issues from time to time. But he just continues to, you know,

be a really consistent player for them and a guy that they might be able to build around and has answered one of their big questions. So I kind of put those two guys together. I put Juan Thornhill and Lageria Sneed as these like young defensive backs, guys who are not in this game last year and reasons that maybe the Chief's defense is a better group now than they were a year ago when they won the Super Bowl. I completely agree. And I think that Prashad Brelin is somebody who's also had an underrated season. I was really surprised that I was going back through some past breakup numbers over the last 10 years.

Prashad Brelin is way higher on that list than you would ever think. His ball skills and the plays he makes, I mean, it's a volatile situation with guys that play that aggressive. But he's another one of those guys that the style of defense they want to play, it fits. And I just think it's so interesting what Juan Thornhill kind of represents about the ways that chiefs have built their scheme, offensively and defensively around the skills of their players. They have played all this man-match coverage. So I pointed that out as well in what he wrote about Thornhill. And they'll have Thornhill play man-coverage 10 yards off the ball.

And they just trust his athleticism and ability to break on stuff so much that he can play 10 yards deep and still make plays like that. You saw him come downhill on Stefan Diggs in that ASE championship game. And if you look at it, Juan Thornhill 99th percentile among safety's pre-draft in the vert and the broad jump. He's explosive. And they build their defense in the way they use him around that explosiveness. And I just think the chiefs have been so good on both sides of the ball of understanding. All right, what are our guys' strengths? How do we utilize those strengths?

And it's not an accident that they get the most out of these guys on offense and defense. All right, let's move on. My next one here is Chris Godwin. And it's for this reason. Chris Godwin is a star. He was an all-pro receiver last year. Chris Godwin's not sneaking up on anybody. But just full disclosure, I've had a lot of conversations about Chris Godwin here over the last week or so.

I feel comfortable saying I'm writing a story about him on Friday at the athletic. And I was shocked at the returns I got on the person that Chris Godwin is. And I just think that there are guys in really important spots for this Bucks team that are wired the right way. And when you hear about Chris Godwin and Mike Evans, they're not just talented. These are guys that the game truly matters to them, getting better truly matters to them. There is a real workmanlike attitude at that position for this team. And I talked to, I had so many really good conversations and I'm really excited about the story. But one that really jumps out to me is that I was talking to Todd Monkin, who was the wide receivers coach for the box and then their offensive coordinator in the last regime.

And he was describing the first time he ever met Chris Godwin. And it was at dinner at the official 30 visits that they have pre-draft. And they went to a steakhouse at the mall here in Tampa, which is what a Florida comment that is. And he was saying that at that dinner, he felt like he was the kid. And that the 21-year-old guy across from him was the adult at the table. That's how Chris Godwin presented himself in that moment. And Ryan Fitzpatrick said he was the most impressive rookie he's seen in 16 years in the NFL. And I just think getting those types of guys and building their roster out of players like that has been a huge thing for this team.

I mean, the talent is undeniable. But I also think that there is an underlying aspect to these players that kind of ties it all together. So if you guys want to learn more about Chris Godwin, I encourage you to check out the story that I'm writing on the athletic tomorrow. I don't want to give too much away. But I just think that, again, his personality and the type of guy he is, this team is kind of aligned with those guys. And it's mattered for them. a quick question about your story? Are there going to be dogs in it? No, there are not, there will be dogs mentioned, but it is not a dog-centric story. He has a pit bull named Ziggy.

He has a pit bull named Ziggy, and Ziggy reminds me of my dog Molly, so it makes me happy. But that's Greg Oman, we're a big story about Chris Godwin and their dogs last year. So that is the focus of that. I'm going to be talking about a lot of other stuff, though. Okay, that's fair. But I'm going to go, I'll go back and pull up a Greg story as well, because Godwin has done a ton of tremendous work in the animal rescue space. So that's that's one of the things to certainly to like about him. I was, I had a conversation with with everybody. I've done a dozen interviews for the story. And one of the questions I started asking at the end of the interview stretch was, was there anything about him that annoys you? Like was there, what are his faults? Because when you hear people talk about

this guy, it's as if he's just this saint of a person. And his brother-in-law, soon-to-be brother-in-law, says he chews with his mouth open and it's disgusting. And his parents yelled at him one time when he was a kid that they can remember. And his wide receiver coach, Josh Gaddis from Penn State says in their three years together, he can remember one missed assignment that Chris had during a game. Like one time where he had to scold him during a film session. And I just think it's so interesting at that position to have a guy whose biggest strength is that he has no weaknesses. I was having a conversation with the head coach yesterday about this wide.

receiver of free agent class and he was taking a look at Godwin who was asking me what I thought about him. And he was like, yeah, you know, there's nothing that leaps off the table to you. I mean, it's not, he doesn't look like he runs that fast. He's not that big. But every single aspect of his game is a strength. And I think that is, it's kind, you have to peel back the layers a little bit to understand what's special about Chris Godwin. And when you think about the entire package altogether, you get an all-pro caliber player that's also willing to block guys on run plays from the slot. It's just a rare combination. This off, I'm sure your story is going to get into this, but this wide receiver class is going

to be really interesting. And I wonder exactly where Godwin fits into it, because the way that the bucks have been built, he's never been their kind of their number one receiver. He hasn't had to be, but there have been games where he definitely has been. So when you look at this Sunday, what role do you see for him? Is there a matchup that you think the bucks might, or the, the, the box might be able to exploit using him. How do you think he kind of fits into their game plan? I think that he's a shot guy. I mean, when you look at what they've tried to do over the course of the playoffs,

there have been at least one or two shots to him every single play that have mattered, every single game that have mattered. You know, think about the first quarter shot down the middle of the field that he caught over Darnall Savage, who he played against in high school, by the way, which is kind of funny. They're both from Delaware. And there was the one shot. It's been a big, big month for Delaware.

Big month for Delaware. And there was the one deep shot that he almost. caught against the Saints where he had to kind of avoid getting his head torn off by the goalpost and he eventually dropped it. And then the touchdown, he scored against Washington. So, and that's been a big part of their game plan. I think that the comfort, because it's been a frustrating year for him in some ways. You know, he had the finger injury, had the hamstring injury.

He missed some time for really the first time. He had a concussion, I believe, too, right? And a concussion, yep. He missed time for the, really the only time in his entire football life. He missed more than one game in a season. And I think that with a new quarterback and some tweaks to the offense, It wasn't necessarily the smoothest ride for how he fit into it. But I really believe that what we've seen from him in the postseason and down the stretch, even with some of the drops, the way that his production has kind of spiked in some of these games is indicative of the rise in their offense.

So I think a big game from him often has dictated a big game from the bucks here over the last month and a half or so. And I don't think Sunday is going to be an exception. All right. Let's stick with the wider receiving core. I couldn't do the show without putting Scotty Miller in this group. And it's not just because of all the other phrases we talked about Scotty Miller in the past. I was Kevin Garver, who was the receiver's coach for the Bucks during his availability this week, was talking about kind of the first time he had seen Scotty play.

And one of their scouts brought his tape to Kevin, and he was watching it. And he's like, man, this guy's got something. He's got some giddy up. He can make contested catches down the field. And Kevin Garver was really one of the only position coaches. And then Byron Leff, which was also there. There was at Scottie Miller's Pro Day at Bowling Green. and I just think it's so telling how good this team has been at finding wide receiver talent

all throughout the draft. I mean, obviously, Mike Evans is a top 10 pick. I mean, it doesn't take a lot to see a star in Mike Evans. But the fact that they got Chris Godwin in the third round, getting Scotty and kind of injecting that little dose of speed into their offense in the sixth round. Tyler Johnson being a late round pick and having him be a guy who's come in and contributed right away for their offense. It just seems like this team has a real good sense. front office does for what they want in receivers.

And talking to Todd Monkin about Godwin, there wasn't a ton of input from the coaching staff in the previous regime, even when Light was there, about these guys. So there was not a ton of communication. So it's the front office that's really been shaping the tastes of what they want at that position here in the Jason Light era. And I'd say above every other spot, it has been the area and the position group where they've hit on the most guys consistently. Well, we got to, when he did our mailbag pod last week, who got to,

ask the question about wide receiver value. And I think the Bucks are a really unique kind of case study when you talk about wide receiver value and where you can find it. And it's going to be interesting to see the way that they kind of handle that position group moving forward, especially with Chris Gajwin's contract coming up. Yep. But give me, before we, before we move off of Scott Miller, I've got two, well, one quick thing. I was thrown. I was shook today when I saw that he was on the Bucks media availability list as Scott Miller. Like, who is Scott Miller? We can't go, we can't call him Scott Miller. I always love that when you have like a guy that had that name as a kid and then

people try to class it up and adultize it when he gets a little bit older. It's like, no, he's Scotty Miller. Like, let's just, let's lean into that. He's Scottie Miller. Let's own it. Same as like Mitch and Mitchell Trubisky. It's like, no, man. Like, you're Mitch.

Like, just get that. Yeah, like maybe Scotty Miller puts that on his resume or his business car. His LinkedIn probably says Scott Miller. But like, look, his Instagram says Scotty. So, but before we move off of Scottie Miller, give me your, favorite Scotty Miller anecdote from Barrington? Oh, I don't really have. I mean, those games, I went back and I used to watch them. I mean, they had really fun offenses back when he played. And I think that, you know,

it's a little thing. But the fact that the coaching staff is all the same. And, you know, my high school coach has been, we've been talking about it the last couple weeks. And he's so excited. And, you know, he was Scotty, I asked Scottie about him today. And he just said that, just that familial aspect that it felt like we had at the program and the fact that he's so close with my coach's family and his kids and everything else. I mean, that's why it's cool. It's just because there is that kind of, you know, family aspect to it. And we all go back and see, like, the coaching staff and everything else. And the fact that it's had that through line and I went back and I remember watching the teams he played for, even though we don't really

know each other. That's just a fun thing. I mean, that, that through line and that, all that stuff that ties it together is why it matters to me. It's like, I'm almost as happy for my high school football coach as I am for Scotty Miller. Like, that's kind of how I'm thinking about it. And of course, the other thing about Scotty Miller you're going to hear over and over probably on the broadcast is that he told, I believe it was the Dan Patrick show, right, that he thought he could beat Tyreek Hill in a race. That is the talk of an earnest 20-something kid that's always had to say that. And that's what Tyree got asked about it multiple times this week. But one of the first times he got asked about it, he was like, yeah, he should say that. Exactly.

He should feel like he's faster me. And you could tell Tyreek is like, he's not faster than me. but like he should believe it. And hopefully the, you know, the chief's defensive backs for their sake, they're believing how fast Scottie Miller is because too many other teams apparently have not realized that he's a 4-3 guy. That's what Bruce Ariet said today. He's like 20 games in.

You'd think that people would understand it. But apparently they don't. Listen to Bruce today was fun. I mean, I think he's enjoyed this week, even though it's probably sort of a pain for him to have to do all this stuff. All right. Let's get to our next two here. You want to talk about Shaq Barrett and JPP.

I think there are two guys absolutely to point out here. I wanted to ask you about Shaq Barrett because you watched him for years in Denver. And I really think that the way that he kind of explains this game is you need a little bit of luck. When you're building championship caliber teams, you need to stumble into guys. And the idea that Shaq Barrett, who I want to say led the NFL in Sax was second last year with 19 and a half. Yeah, he led the NFL. He had 19 and a half last season on a one year $4 million contract. And people that, you know, look at past Rush,

productivity on a person at basis, I think liked Shaq Barrett. He was a guy that even when he signed that deal, it's like, oh, that's pretty good value for somebody that might be able to really jump his production with more opportunity. So when he was leaving Denver, what kind of sense did you have of the player Shaq Barrett might be when he was given a little bit larger of a role within a defense? Yeah, I mean, I didn't think 19 and a half sacks. That certainly wasn't there. But I thought he was a guy who deserved to be a starter. And he never had that role in Denver because he was playing behind early in his career. He was playing behind Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware. And you'd have to be really freaking good to play ahead of Von Miller or

Demarcus Ware. They also drafted Shane Ray in 2015. Shack came in 2014. Another really interesting case study and a weird career. But you could tell, you could always just tell that he was productive in spurts and that he had earned this right to be a starter. He had completely like changed his body. I mean, he was kind of like a, he came into the league as kind of this like doughy guy. And-d-doy, Jesus. And he admits it. Harsh. Well, he, and he will tell you that. And he didn't really know about how to eat and how to take care of himself. And I think a lot of that was like, he struggled a lot when he was in college. He was, you know, had a really young family. They didn't have a lot of money. That was just hard to like do, you know, live the life that you

need to do to be a professional athlete. And he did a ton of growing up. He did a ton of from both of those guys from Von Miller and and DeMarcus Ware. And so, you know, I was, I remember being like happy for him. Like this is going to be a great opportunity. This is a guy you can go out and prove it. Here in Denver, huge mistake not to keep him. Huge, huge mistake, especially at that sort of, at that sort of deal. I know there's a lot of people around here who are very happy for him, but also like, oh, God, how did we let let that happen? How did we let him get away for a one-million or one-year four-million dollar deal. So it's been, it's just been kind of cool to watch. And you know, you would see these little glimpses, you know, in the preseason. You

would see it just in the times that he could come in and he would get just a package here and there. I just don't know if anybody saw kind of this type of massive success. And, you know, and it's been great. You know, I remember last summer we did a one-hit wonders piece or it was one of the blitzes that we did at the athletic during the pandemic. And we looked at all, you you know, one hit wonders across sports and certainly through the NFL. And he was the guy, I kind of did like a guys who are on one hit wonder alert. And it was like, I put Shaq on that list because it was like, you went from being a role player to leading the NFL in Sacks and what are you going to do? And what he has done has he's come back and he's been, he's earned himself a shit

ton of money. I was on the phone with JPP with Jason Pierre Paul earlier this week. And, you know, he said they got to keep us together. That's the big question. Like we're a great duo now. But, but then what? You know, can they keep us both? And that's going to be a huge question now for Jason Light is, do you keep Shaq? Does he hit the open market? What sort of contract is he going to command? But those are the two guys. It's Shaq Barrett and Jason Pierre-Paul who have the chance to completely wreck this game.

And if the Bucks win this game, I mean, Tom Brady will have his moments. Chris Godwin and Mike Evans and Rob Gruncowski, they're going to have their moments. But if the Bucks win this game, it's going to be because of Shaq-Ber and Jason Pierpaw. They're the ones who could absolutely swing it. And I totally agree about Jack Barrett. It almost just kind of makes me smile. When you see a guy that got that chance, really took advantage of it. And then the Bucks had to kind of answer that question of what do we do next after last season?

Because when you've only seen it for a year, I think it's fair to wonder what he's going to do in the second act. The same way that you asked that question the Bucks had to. And they gave him the franchise tag. And it's very rare that a guy that gets the franchise tag, which is a really big number, you know, it's based on the top five salary cap hits at that position, can outperform or at least perform to the tag. And that's exactly what Shaq Barrett did. You know, he only had eight sacks this year.

And to have 11 and a half fewer sacks than you did last year and still feel like you got the most out of him is pretty impressive. He led the league in pressures among edge players this year. So even though his sack production was down, he was pretty much the same player in this prove-a-year. even on a $15.8 million franchise tag, they still extracted value from that deal, which is really, really difficult to do

when you tag a guy, and the Bucks did. And I think that even if you look at JPP, right, I think he's on a $12.8 million deal this year, they traded a third round pick for him. I was a salary dump. The Giants were getting out of it. And the Bucks have gotten something out of JPP. And that really speaks to where they've found value in these guys.

Even though they're paying those to a combined $27, $28 million, this year, they've been players worthy of those salaries. And guys playing up to those numbers on those mid-tier deals, that's how you create championship caliber rosters. And the Bucks have managed to do that. And they're both just really feel-good stories, too. They're guys that are easy for based on what they've been through in their lives and their careers. I mean, Jason Pierre Paul, we all know about his firework accident. And I wrote a story that published on Wednesday on the athletic about him and his relationship with Laura Oakman, who's a reporter from Fox, who has a disfigured finger and how they kind of bonded over this like trauma. She lost a finger as a child had to have

it reattached and this kind of really private moment that they had together when Jason Pierapal just his first game back meeting in a Fox production meeting. And like he he broke his neck in a car accident in 2019. Bruce Arien said he was afraid that he would never be able to walk again. So the fact that he's kind of back at a Super Bowl, eight years later, eight years after he, you know, was one of those guys who made Tom Brady's life hell when he was playing with the Giants. The fact that he's back in the Super Bowl playing in Tampa where he went to college, it's just a really good kind of nice story. And I hope it gets the play on the broadcast when, you know,

so much of this is about the quarterbacks. But this is why we're doing this podcast is there's a lot of other guys. Absolutely. I totally agree. And so let's stick on the buck's defense because obviously those are guys that have gotten paid to a certain degree, guys making top of market or second third contract type money. One area where the bucks have gotten by with younger players is the secondary. And I think Carlton Davis is somebody who really is emblem,

of that. And I really enjoy when, you know, sometimes drafting for need is overrated. But every once in a while, I think teams are rewarded when they spam a position. And when this regime got here, or, you know, the last couple years of the Jason Light regime in the front office, secondary had been just a wasteland for this team for years. They had such a hard time finding cornerbacks. I remember when they went out and they traded for Brent Grimes and then paid him and that went to shit. And they signed Doral Revis. And, you know, that was kind of a nightmare situation. God, I forgot.

That happened. Yeah, and there were some really rough moments for this team on the back end. And if you think out even the Mike Smith years when they were on defense, that defense was ill-equipped to deal with professional modern NFL offenses, especially on the back end. You know, guys like Chris Conti and MJ Stewart who flamed out here. They had some issues. And they have really done such a good job of just saying, all right, we're going to throw all these resources at these second and third round picks.

They picked four corners over a two-year span in the second and third round. And Carlton Davis has kind of emerged as the alpha among that group. He's somebody that had his rough moments this year, undeniably. You think back to that first game, Tyree Kil got the best of him a couple times. But he's been somebody that they felt comfortable putting in man-to-man, even press coverage against some of the best wide receivers in the league. He followed Devante Adams around the field in the NFC championship game. And I just think that the production they've gotten from that position this year and from him especially

has really allowed them to do a lot of what they've done defensively. One of the reasons you can afford to give the franchise tag to somebody like Shaq Barrett is when you're paying every single one of your defensive backs rookie contract money. And that's kind of how this defense has been constructed. There's a lot of expensive guys in the front seven. And on the back end, it's a lot of cheap. And they've made it work. He had a rough game at times against Tyree.

last time. So I'm really curious kind of how that matchup is going to go again if they're going to try to do anything differently. Or if they just say, this is who we are, this is how we're going to play defense, we're going to trust Carlton, we're going to trust Jemel Dean, we're going to trust our young corners and like let them line up and play. I'm just, I'm very curious how that matchup is going to go. You know, there's the chief's offense presents you so many problems, as you guys have discussed many, many times on the podcast earlier this week. I really want to see how that matchup is going to go. And I think it's going to go better for Davis this time. than it did last time.

And Bruce Ariens said today, you know, that's partly our fault for putting him in that situation. And, you know, Ariens also, you kind of pointed out that he'd been hurt this year. And when you're putting so much on a guy is your number one corner and expecting him to play man coverage against all these really good players, playing hurt, that matters. If you're half a step slow and you talk about his hip injury, couldn't really open his hip, I mean, that really does have an impact. And I think they're going to give him a little bit more help this time.

But Carlton Davis said something on Tuesday that I thought was really interesting. He just talked about how when you play corner in this league and you, play corner the style with a style of play that we do, you can't let that stuff affect you. You're going to give up those plays every once in a while when you have that aggressive, we're going to dictate the action sort of approach that they've taken defensively here, especially in their last couple games. And I think that's really important. I think it's important for a guy to have that makeup and say, even if I give up a big one, I'm not going to be afraid the next time because I know that you can't let that affect you. And I think that needs to really kind of dictate the way they

approach this game against Kansas City because you're going to take your licks and it's about what you do on the next play. All right. Let's get to our next one. You wanted to talk about Leonard Fournette, which I'm interested in why. Why do you want to, why do you want to put Leonard Fornett on this list? Well, he's awesome in the postseason, right? I mean, playoff Lenny. Playoff Lenny. So potentially, you know, a lot of big game potential for him. I just think that the buck's running back situation has been kind of interesting this year. I mean, Ronald Jones kind of had underproduced a lot, which was, I think, one of the reasons that they went out and got Leonard Fournett. You know, Leonard Fornett, his career has been just a complete roller coaster.

You know, he probably shouldn't have been taken number four overall. I think we can all agree about that he was drafted too high. But, you know, obviously the potential is still there. He's a really likable guy. You think, okay, landing in Tampa, this could be a good spot for him. I'm just going to be really curious to see how Bruce Ariens and Byron Lefich kind of choose to deploy these guys, choose to use Fournet, choose to use Ronald Jones. You know, is LaShawn McCoy even active in this game?

I think he will be because Calvin Vaughn can't stop fumbling. He's hard to tackle. He's really fast. I don't know. I just, I think he's an intriguing guy who could end up having kind of a sneaky big game because if there is a vulnerability within the Chief's defense, it's that you can run on them. And Leonard Fernette could run on them.

Danny Kelly wrote about it today on the ring on my buddy, Dan Kelly. My buddy Dan Kelly wrote about Leonard Fournet And I thought he pointed out something really interesting And it's that You know Leonard Fournet is I think Danny wrote this He said calling Leonard Foronet a five-star recruit Is almost misleading

Like Leonard Fournette is a god In high school football And what he was when he arrived at LSU And the type of player he was supposed to be And then even his first year at LSU He was such a monster And he got dinged up a little bit But he still was a top five pick as a running back

I mean this is a guy who we all expected to be this legend in the football world. And it didn't really work out that way. And, you know, it's not as, this is very different because of the pedigree these guys came from, but it almost reminds me of something like what Lagart Blunt did with New England or with a guy like Jay Ajai when he ended up landing with the Eagles. You know, these guys that play running back, it is kind of a disposable as kind of a rude word, but it's such an interchangeable spot now that your opportunities are going to come in

weird moments and in weird ways at that position sometimes. And I think that's what we're seeing with Leonard Fournett right now. He was cut by a team. He signs with the Bucks who have a running back by committee sort of approach. And now he has this chance on the biggest stage. Is Leonard Fournette ever going to be a really valuable player for an NFL team over the course of an entire season? It's going to be worth paying, worth investing in.

Who knows? I would say probably not all things considered when you think about the type of player he's been throughout his career. But at that spot, you can still have these huge moments. these huge games and walk away with the Super Bowl ring. And that's kind of where we are. You know, Leonard Fournett is never going to be the guy that so many people expected him to be when he was 17 years old.

But he still has a chance to win a Super Bowl on a team with Tom Brady and kind of change the way we talk and think about him, even if it's never going to reach the heights that we had originally envisioned, you know, a decade ago. And sometimes you just have to be kind of happy for a guy to get out of a shitty situation. Absolutely. You know, look, Jacksonville was kind of a. was a bad situation. And there's, there's a number of these guys. Look, you know, Levy on Bell, who got himself cut by the Jets earlier this season and landed with the Chiefs in a role,

unlike anything that he's ever had in his career. He's part of a committee. He is not the guy. He might, he might have five touches in the Super Bowl this weekend. But he's in a much better place, right? I mean, so just kind of watch these guys who, six months ago when we were talking about the preseason and what these rosters look like on teams that were going nowhere and now could have impactful roles in the Super Bowl. That's kind of fun and one of the things that makes this league really interesting. I totally agree. Before we get out of here, I want to play a quick little game because we're not going to talk about this really with NAEP and I think we have to address it in some form before this game happens. There's a lot of legacy points at stake here.

I mean, a ton of legacy points when you consider the type of the big name guys in this game. So I just kind of want to throw a thought starter out and just kind of say the way out of frame it is this, what would a Super Bowl mean for blank? And I want to start with the tight ends because I think that obviously the coaches and the quarterbacks can be the things that people talk about most this week. But we have two of arguably the greatest tight ends in the history of the sport playing in this game. Travis Kelsey, you guys should absolutely go read the story that Ethan Douglas and Mike Sando did on The Athletic this week about whether Travis Kelsey is having the greatest tight end season of all time. He certainly might be. Travis Kelsey had 83 catches in a thousand yards

for five straight seasons. He's the only tight end who's ever done it five times, let alone doing it five years in a row. And I just think it's really kind of time to sit back and consider where Travis Kelsey is eventually going to fit in the hierarchy of that position in NFL history. I'm comfortable saying this. I texted him this morning. I've known Travis for years. I mean, I did a story about him in 2014, right when he came into the league.

And there are times where I went to Kansas City and he and I had breakfast together. And I remember just thinking how young he seemed at that point. You know, he was, and he was only a couple years younger than me, but he seemed like a young guy. He was having fun. The story was all about the dances he was doing after he was scoring. And he was an exciting player at that point. That's what he was. He was just exciting.

And it feels like it wasn't that long ago, but it was a really long time ago. He's not this exciting player anymore. He's a 30-year-old guy who is on his way to the whole fame. He's taken his spot among the greatest players who have ever played that position. And I just, I'd send him a message. I was just like it's it's amazing to go back and think about that moment and how long ago it seems and how it doesn't seem that long ago. And he said that he agreed. And it's just it's kind of crazy to think about now.

But if he wins one on Sunday and he wins two in a row and he wins one while he was on pace to lead the league in receiving as a tight end, it's amazing. Like that is a legacy building moment for a guy that I don't think we really talk about in those terms quite yet. But we absolutely should. Oh, you're absolutely right that he's on the Hall of Fame trajectory. I mean, I think even if his career ended on Sunday, he's there. And look, when Greg Olson retired two weeks ago, got asked the question in one of our slacks or whatever within our company that said, like, is he a Hall of Famer? And I was like, no. Because to be a Hall of Famer, you have to be, I think, considered the best player at your position at some point during your career.

Probably for one of the two. Probably for multiple years. And so for Greg Olson, you're always going to be compared against Rob Grancowski and Travis Kelsey. And Kelsey and Grunk are the, they might go down in history as the two greatest tight ends ever. They've completely revolutionized the position. They're very different stylistically, but they have changed this position. Which I think it's kind of fun. It's one of the things I like most about them and thinking about them is how different they are.

Yeah, absolutely. But they're also both really fun. I think, you know, tight ends now are like the heart and soul and the spirit of your locker room, you know, in some of these really great teams. And, you know, the thing about Kelsey that like these numbers are bonkers and he's doing those, he's having that sort of production on one of the most loaded offenses we've ever seen. He's not putting up like garbage stats when he's the only receiving option. He is always open for the most dynamic offense in football. You know, him and Mahomes have kind of just unlocked this crazy connection. And yeah, it's really fun.

And so what do you think about Rob Grancowski? What would another Super Bowl mean for Rob? I already think he's the greatest tight end I've ever seen. I think the peak Grunk, you know, it's easy to kind of think about what might have been in the injuries and all of that. But in my mind, he's the best tight end I've ever watched because you consider the receiving impact and what he does is a blocker. And Nate brought this up on Twitter today and I had already been thinking about even before he said it. This idea that Gronk is this like shell of himself playing now and it's kind of a bummer. I think that's bullshit.

Like the guy took last season. off, came back this year is still a monster when asked to block, can still block like a tackle when necessary. And it's not as if he was as zero as a receiver. You know, I think he caught seven touchdown passes. He ranked 13th among tight ends and yards per route run. He's catching vertical balls down the field at times when they need him to. The fact that watching Rob Grancowski, after taking that year off and at this stage in his

career, makes me happy and not actively sad, is a miracle. Like, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that he is not just on the field right now. Like, he is a useful player. And this kind of postscript on the back half of the career of the guy that I consider the best tight end I've ever seen, I just think is something we should really appreciate and think about a little bit more than people seem to be right now. It's been fun to watch him having fun and to watch him not be in pain. I mean, the last games, that last season, 28. in New England, it was painful to watch him because you knew that he was hurting and that like

every step he took, you know, when he had chronic back issues like he did, you know, it just, it was hard to watch kind of that last, that last phase of his career, New England. But I think that year away, it was, it recharged his body. It recharged his spirit if that actually needed recharging. It was crazy. I just remember like last week seeing all these memories of people going to like the grunk beach party in South Beach, like the party that he threw before last Super Bowl and here he is back again. And I think the one important thing to remember this week, as the game goes on on Sunday, and he's not getting any targets, and you're wondering, where is he? And Jim Nance and Tony Romer are talking about where is Rob Grankowski and he still hasn't

had a target. And then he's going to go off and he's going to have a massive third down conversion in the third or fourth quarter. He's going to get open down the sideline. He's going to get his. It might take all game, but he is going to have at least one impactful play on Sunday. Guarantee it. And last time when these two teams played, they would bring him in as an extra blocker because they knew that so much pressure was going to be coming from the Kansas City side. And he's going to do that. He just, he has been an important part of what they've done offensively. It's not just a let's get the band back together. Let's have Tom Brady's buddies buddies on the team.

Rob Gronkowski has actually been a part of what the buck's offense has been down the stretch as they've really developed into this incredibly explosive unit. All right, I want to talk about the coaches for a second, too. Because listening to Bruce Ariens this week and just kind of thinking about Bruce Ariens and what he's been in the NFL. NFL consciousness, especially as a head coach. The fact that he's been the coach of the year twice, and he's won a bunch of games. And there's a ton of talent on this team, obviously, but I don't think it can be overstated. The culture shift that was undergone when Bruce Ariens came in, the guys he brought with him and what that coaching staff looks like, just the overall impact that that's had.

I mean, for Bruce Ariens, winning a Super Bowl would change everything in the way that we talk about Bruce Ariens. And I know that it'd be hard to kind of parse Tom Brady's impact and all that other stuff. But Bruce Ariads is a guy that I think is a really, really good coach. He's an old school guy, but has also kind of pushed limits with how we think about inclusivity in the NFL and a bunch of really important topics that we've talked about a ton this year. And I just think him winning one would be a cool moment not only for him, but the type of guy he is and the way that he's gone about his coaching career and the types of people he's elevated, whether they be players or assistant coaches. I think even the fact that he's here and coaching in this game is important. And, but if he wins the Super Bowl, it's going to be a reflection on the way that we talk about who should be a head coach. What does a head coach look like? What should a head coach track look like? Because, you know, he did not become a head coach until he was, I believe, 60 years old. It took him years and years and years and years. He was fired by the Steelers before he got the chance to go to Indianapolis and start working and start working there. He only got the chance to be the head coach in Indianapolis because of the

horribly unfortunate situation of Chuck Pagano getting cancer. And, you know, sometimes it really is about just weird timing and patience. And, you know, there is this rush to get like the next great thing, the next hot guy in coaching. But sometimes, you know, I'm not going to say that David Culley is going to be like the guy, right? You know, that this is what the Texans did and hired like the really long time assistant coach. But it should just be a reflection on who is a good coach, who is a good teacher. I mean, that's who Bruce Ariens is at heart, is he's just a really good teacher.

And I know there's going to be, there would be a lot of people just happy for him around the league where, you know, so many people were happy for Andy Reid last year, just after what his career had been like. I know there'd be a lot of people would just kind of be happy for, for Bruce Ariens who just has grinded for so long to get this chance. I totally agree.

And Bruce will tell you, that's one of the reasons he's tried to build his staffs the way that he did is because he had to wait so long for his opportunity. And it's just really nice. and I think it's really cool to see someone wield their power in the way that Bruce is wielded his. It's a nice story and I think it's very real and I appreciate that. So let's think about Andy Reid.

What would a Super Bowl mean for Andy Reid? I think it puts him in like the pantheon. Yeah. Like I honestly do. Andy Reid is somebody that has been a great story for a long time and I think that he's an innovative coach and all of this other stuff. But if Andy Reid wins too, I think it's rarefied air. It's Bill Walsh.

you know, those types of coaches that we think about and appreciate if he gets another one. I don't know if that's overstating it, but that's kind of how it feels to me. It's he kind of joins, you know, the rare, rare fraternity of the best coaches in the history of the sport if he gets another one. He absolutely does. I don't think there's any question about that. And look, when it comes to like sheer number of rings, you know, it's going to be really hard, I think, for anybody ever to really kind of match what Bill Belichick has done. but Andy Reid is in the perfect situation. He just got a contract extension.

He's got a quarterback who's going to have them in contention, if not being the best team in the AFC for a very long time. So while it was just this tremendous story and like feel good moment last year to see Andy Reed get his ring, we could be seeing Andy Reid here back on this stage year after year after year and really kind of chasing those guys that might be ahead of them, whether it's Belichick or Lombardi, kind of like the pantheon of head coaches. And the other thing that I think is really cool and important about Andy Reid is that he has shown that you can evolve as a head coach and that you are not the same guy year

and in year out. And yes, having a generational player, a once-in-a-lifetime talent like Patrick Mahomes, has enabled him to evolve and to kind of change some of his tendencies. You know, it's made him better as a game manager. It's made him better as a play call. It's, I think, allowed him to really unlock everything that maybe he's always wanted to do on fourth downs and those sorts of things. But it's just been really fun to watch him continue to be creative and find new things to do where at his age and the length of time he's been in the NFL, I mean, would you blame him for kind of keep sticking with what works? And instead, he just seems like to feed off of this opportunity to keep doing new things, trying new things, and working with this other worldly roster that he has.

I mean, if you want to learn more about Andy Reid, our chat with Brad Childress here coming up. Ooh, can't wait. It gets into all of that stuff. All right. For Tom Brady, I don't know what else there is to say. I mean, it's just one more notch in the belt. I mean, it's just the seventh infinity stone here. He's already the greatest quarterback of all time.

I think that it really does say something about him doing it outside of New England and without Bill Belichick. And, you know, I think that there isn't much to say about Tom Brady. He is the greatest player in the history of the National Football League, the most accomplished one by far. and this would just be the next thing. Would you say that's pretty much all there is? I think that's it. But I think for Brady, if he's able to win this Super Bowl, independent of Bill Belichick, independent of New England,

a seventh championship, it becomes bigger than the NFL. It becomes where does he fall into the greatest athletes of all time, the greatest sports leaders, American sports, you know, champions. You put him in the Michael Jordan conversation. Our colleague Dan Pompeii wrote about that this week, that you've got to put him in that conversation with Michael Jordan and the number of championships that he's won. So I think it just takes it beyond football and into the conversation of, you know, the greatest team sports athletes that we've ever seen. I totally agree. Last one.

What would a Super Bowl win mean for Patrick Mahomes? I mean, I think it means that he could retire tomorrow and go directly into the Hall of Fame. Yeah, I agree. Which is bonkers. And this will be another, you know, we've talked a little bit about the stories that we're working on here. I'm working on a story that I've tentatively have titled Mahomes, Inc, where he is becoming, you know, a brand in and of himself now. And you'll be able to read more about that on The Athletic in a couple of days. So hopefully none of our competitors are reading this and are going to try to scoot me in the next 24 hours. But, you know, I just think he is at age 25, he's putting himself in position to be the greatest of all time. You know, we're going to hear a ton about this on the broadcast.

And I'm just going to spoil this for you that if you're going to be listening to CBS, Tony Romo is all in on the legacy narrative for these quarterbacks, all freaking in. Where, you know, what Tony Romo is going to say on the broadcast is that if Brady wins this Super Bowl, if he beats Mahomes head-to-head in a Super Bowl, he will slam the door that nobody will ever be able to catch him is the greatest fall time. If Mahomes wins, he keeps that door open in terms of the number of rings that he could get at being able to, to chase Tom Brady as the goat. I think that might be a little too simplistic and the game is going to evolve and change. And I think, you know, Brady lost a lot of Super Bowls too and is still the greatest quarterback of all time. So I don't know if that's quite, I'm not quite ready to go there.

But you're going to hear a lot about what this will mean from Mahomes' legacy. And to be able to have already accomplished what he has at 25, you know, he's putting himself in consideration to be not just the greatest NFL player of all time, but just kind of move into that other pantheon where, you know, You could talk about him an empire that he's building like LeBron James, like Kobe Bryant did, like Tiger Woods, that caliber of athlete. And I think that it's a really important thing to consider is what he would be on a team that has won two straight Super Bowl. So if you look at the teams that have done it in my lifetime, there's only four of them. And the last few teams to do it, whether it's the 0304 Patriots, the 9798 Cowboys, the 92798 Broncos, sorry about. Do you find that disrespectful?

I'm sorry about that. The 97-98 Broncos, the 92-93 Cowboys. Those are teams where the quarterback was a cog in the machine. Even the Patriots back then were more defined by their defense than they were by Tom Brady at times. For Mahomes now, he is what this chief's team is. And for him to do it two years in a row, it would be the first guy really since Joe Montana did in 88 and 89, where it was this guy who was the centerpiece of what that team was at its core. And I really do think that matters.

You know, it's not just too straight. It's too straight when you have the stature within that team and what you mean to that organization, the way that Patrick Mahomes does. We have not seen somebody do that this century. And I think that that would be a huge, huge feather in his cap, even when you compare him to a guy like Top Brady. Man, I'm jacked up. I'm ready. I'm ready for this.

Let's go. Let's go. We still got a couple days, though. So we got to pump the brakes a little bit. We still got a lot of podcasting before we get there. And a lot of writing. A lot of writing together. That's right.

God, I have so much writing to do. All right. Lindsay, thank you very much for joining us. Always appreciate it. We'll talk to you soon. I'll see you from across the hotel lobby, six to 10 feet away at minimum. I'm very excited to welcome someone who knows Andy Reed as well as anybody, I would say, somebody who's coached with him over several different decades at a bunch of different stops,

whether it was Northern Arizona or as the offensive coordinator. for the Eagles or a little bit later on as an assistant on these chiefs teams. It's had a variety of roles in the league for a very long time. Brad Chiljolders. Brad, thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Awesome.

So I really wanted to get your perspective because I was having a conversation with an offensive coach recently. And he was talking about how cool it's been as someone who appreciates the sport to watch the way that Andy has evolved over time. And you have such a unique perspective on that as somebody who's been with him at various points over a lot of his career. So I wanted to kind of talk about when you guys came to Kansas City, you served a very specific, unique role on that staff early on.

And I wanted just initially, when you and Andy were talking about that spread, so you were a spread analyst was technically your title. So when you guys were talking about what that role would be and how it would be shaped and comprised, what was that dialogue like initially about what you guys wanted and what your vision was for that specific role? Well, I think just kind of like Andy's always been, in my opinion, nothing was out of bounds. And as opposed to this too tight end, full T backfield, the Notre Dame box or whatever, you know, his deal was to, hey, make you defend every blade of grass from sideline to sideline and vertically up and down the field. And so, you know, like you said, nothing was out of bounds if it was well thought out and or you could find evidence, as we say, and put it up there and say it looks like you're coaching it this way.

You know, imitation is the greatest form of flattery. And while Andy breaks down a bunch of players every year in a college draft, he's also looking at systems. I go back to Carson Wentz and they were running some plays and we looked at him and said, boy, those have really worked for us, especially if we're at and field, we get a little bit more. field, we're off the hash mark. And, you know, we grabbed and stole them. And one of them was the one Kareem Hunt running on opening night against New England, running down the middle of the seam with that HB. Seam, yeah.

With Cassius Marsh trying to catch him. And so it's, I'm really interested in this. So when you guys were kind of talking about it, how did you get deployed? Like, how did you go about watching the college games? How did, like, what was the overall structure of your week and how you'd try to glean some of this information? Yeah, so I always sat on the, was always in with the game plan meetings and then studying the opponents. But also I was there in the offseason and people that we thought were on the cutting edge are doing, you know, everybody, I guess Robert, everybody wanted to say college quarterbacks aren't prepared because they're playing out of the shotgun and they're not in their knee center.

And now, as you look at it, 75% of Kansas City's offense is not a shotgun. Probably more, yeah. Not underneath center. And you're like, hey, you know, there's no articles of war. Nothing says that you've got to stand there with your hands underneath the center's rear end or that you can't drive back or that you can't do a pirouet in the backfield or that you can't shift or move. So, you know, everything was on, was out there. Were there offenses in that kind of 2013, 2014 time?

Because I think that people would admit in 2017 when the Eagles running all those RPO's, you guys were, when Patrick came into the league, that was a little more obvious the spread influence on the NFL. But when you guys started, it was probably a little bit less obvious. So were there a couple college offenses that you found particularly interesting at that time that you guys started taking things from? Well, you know, we look at Nevada Reno where Chris Alt had been. Yep.

And, of course, he was one of the guys that had the tailback behind the quarterback. You know, I wish I could remember the name of that right now. You probably can better than that. The what? The pistol. The pistol. And so we looked at some of that, and he knew it forward and backward, knew the virtues of it. We brought him to training camp.

He kind of paled around with me and hung with me. And we put some of that stuff in because we thought it had merit, and it worked for us. And so Andy wasn't afraid to reach out to a guy like that and say, hey, come be it, you know, this will be good for you. It would be good for us. He had just retired. I think he went to Europe to coach. after that. But you do it for 20 or 30 years and it's successful in college. You know, there's got to be some merit to it somewhere. Football is football. How do you think Alex Smith helped

shape the way you guys saw that? Because he had been from that background, obviously, with Urban at Utah, and they kind of incorporated some of that in San Francisco. Did you guys have an open dialogue with him in those early years about some of those ideas, too? Oh, we did. And he was, one thing about Alex was not short on ideas. Very smart ideas in the run game as well as the past game. And obviously the read option stuff, the RPO stuff, he was very familiar with and urban used it extensively at Utah. So it wasn't a tough sell.

And in terms of just the overall, I guess just way you guys would approach creativity in the Kansas City stint, how do you think that overall sense of dialogue and the types of communication you have, how did that differ from the Philadelphia days? What kind of imprint did Alex have on it? How did Andy think about it maybe differently than than he did early in his career as a head coach? I guess how is that overall transfer information different than it would have been maybe 10 years ago when you guys work together? So I guess it's best for me to tell a story about that.

Andy grew up under the arm tutelage of Mike Holmgren. And all right back from being a GA at BYU to taking his job at San Francisco State with Vic Rowan. And then to the Green Bay. And so Andy was a great watcher of film. And not all coaches are as thorough or is engaged or keep book after book. Andy's a diary writer. but he would come up with plays at a pretty young age coaching the tight ends. He was an offensive line coached by trade.

And he would say to Mike, I think this play would be good. And then he had John Gruden on that staff too, and he said, this is really a good play. And, you know, Mike kind of look at it. We always used to marvel at Mike because there was always white on his game plan sheet. When you saw him calling to play, there was actually places of white where there were no record. as opposed to having it chalked full. And his comment to John and to Andy would be, you know what?

That looks like a good play. And when you guys get your own offense, go ahead and feel free to put that play in. But I don't know that play, and we're not running that play. So it was a departure from obviously how he had learned, but he still had that yearning and that growth. And he listened.

And he knew it would be good for him. So I've heard about the genius board and like that idea of there was, if someone had an idea. So for people unfamiliar with that, just kind of walk me through the process of what would happen in Kansas City when you have an idea. So if you have one, what do you do next and kind of how does it work from there? Well, usually you like to have some video evidence that goes along with that idea, two or three plays. You're showing it run against somebody. And then it typically was Matt Nagy and I that went in there and sat with Andy and started that Genius Board. He might have had five or six thoughts on the board already. It was wiped, clean every week. We took a picture of it. We put it in a three ring binder. So you could say, yeah, this was the week we went to the Super Bowl. That's what that thing looked like. And honest to God, there's times where you'd have to turn your head sideways and we'd get to go back. I think this thought is right over here in the left corner. That's part of it right there. Remember that? So yeah, we would sit down and he'd go put it up.

up there. And then, you know, you start to erase. You go, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't erase it. Leave it. Leave it. Sit right there, you know. And we might come back to it and visit it later in the week. So you said he was a journaler and the fact that he kept all that stuff. Have you been around a coach who collects and keeps the information and catalogs it the way that he does? Because it seems like he's pretty thorough and almost like a completionist in a way. Yeah. My wife would tell you that I am, you know, all the, all the books that she's moved or to the trash when I wasn't home. You know, if you hadn't looked at it in X amount of time, it was going to the curb.

But, you know, I think with the computer use is now and be able to scan things and put it on a thumb drive, he would call the IT person in to come and stick the thumb drive in and start it up for him. But he had younger coaches that understood the scanning part of it and all the bells and whistles that you can do with the computer. And people would always bring it forward in the best format. what do you think was your favorite idea that you had seen whether it was from the college game from the NFL in the Kansas City years where you like the light bulb went off and when you brought it to him he was excited about it the germination of it which was your favorite one if you had to pick one well I'd probably go back to that one where we're talking about Kareem Hunt because they you know they've utilized it with Tyree Kiel coming out of the back field usually plays in the NFL have a four or five week half life you know guys only go back four weeks weeks because you try to break the plate every four weeks and try to do something that's a little bit new that is an unscouted look. And so probably that one's a good example of it, you know,

and breaking it out the first game of the year and then sticking it back in the pot and having Tyreek run it later. And I know they still have a version of it. You know, we've tried it with Kelsey coming out of the backfield as well. And the funniest part about that was watching every other team use it over the course of that season. I remember Todd Gurley ran it at one point. and it really was just such a kind of emblematic example of how information had started to travel in the NFL and just the way that technology was affecting it. It almost was just a symbol of the information era in football to a certain degree. There's no doubt. And when the computer age started the digital video, I mean, I'm old enough to go back to say 16 millimeter.

When they put that out, oh, we can't do it with VHS tape. It's not going to look as good. And then beta tape. And then what digital video? What's that going to let? All you got to do is look at a clip from eight years ago and say, well, we were watching that on TV. We put ourselves through that. I think that the computer area has kind of driven that because it used to be you had to have so much room on a server and we didn't have enough space.

And now people have scads of space. Space was expensive. So if you want to do the work, you can find every play that everybody's run. from the preseason all the way through this season, if you want to do the work and spend time looking at somebody you think has good ideas. And that's why I think it's just so interesting that a guy who is from the football establishment

in a way when you think about the West Coast and you think about the Walsh Tree and a guy who is in his 60s now is driving so much of this innovation. I've always found that so impressive about Andy. And if you had to kind of characterize the way he thinks about the need to evolve versus other coaches that you've seen or other coaches from history.

How would you say that he differs from some of those people in the way that he considers that need? You know, I sent him something the other day about evolving and changing yourself and not being a dinosaur, which, you know, you might have accused Mike Holmgren of being back then. But he's never been risk averse. Hey, it's a good idea. I can get blown up.

You know, the right guard can miss a block. and Jesus was going to go for this far. He's never been afraid of that. He's also hired young coaches out of colleges. Hey, this is what's going on in the PAC 10. And I remember Arizona State used to run that. Well, you have all that at your fingertips too. All the colleges are in that server as well.

So if you want to go look at some Arizona State stuff, maybe when Bruce Snyder was there or something, you can do that. I remember you told me a story once about when the shovel pass, you guys ran to Travis back in the day right when you guys started using it. That was something you had seen pit run when Matt Canada was there. And you guys were at the hotel just watching games. And it just feels like that's such a symbol of how the ideas could come from anywhere. When you guys were sitting around watching college football,

with you guys and especially this era of football to a certain degree, the question wasn't, oh, that's not going to work for us. It was how can we make this work for us? Exactly. First of all, you've got to have a Kelsey type guy, although they've tried it with various different people and everybody else has done two with different people. But you got a guy that, yeah, that would work. That fits us. It goes back to all the way Donna McNabb, us being able to dummy automatic something that everybody knew this is a sprint out. This is West Coast offense. He just called a sprint out pass. The defense would know that. and then us start to sprint and shovel it to Kelsey coming this way, and there's nobody standing around him. So you mentioned Donovan McNabb.

I'm curious your answer to this. What would you say is the biggest difference between the offense, Andy, and you were running in 2005 and the offense that he's running right now? I can name the one difference. When we went to the Super Bowl in 2004 with Donovan McNabb, we had zero plays out of the shotgun, zero. Now, you think that's presuppstrous and absurd. Again, you go back to the Mike Holmgren.

He was a Joe Montana guy, five steps. It's a rhythm passing game. And we had shotgun stuff in that year, but all you got to do is go through a walkthrough on a Friday or a Saturday, and the ball goes over the top of the quarterback's head. And Mike Homer's guy, hey, throw that shit out. It's no good anymore. You know, I'm not going to look at that.

You know, does a snap go over? Somebody said occasionally, yeah, I mean, we can think about Lamar and in Buffalo. Happens. But that's the biggest change. We didn't have anything in the shotgun back in 2004. What would you say is the biggest similarity? Biggest similarity. Pass first.

That's the biggest thing that I learned. And I used to goof him all the time about, geez, you're an offensive lineman. I've never met an offensive lineman. Hadn run off the field to me and say, coach we need to run the ball more we need to run the ball run the ball a guy from bYU i guess maybe i can get that a little bit but most offensive linemen would rather run it than throw it in terms of and i remember talking to mattnagy about this a couple years ago and how andy did such a good

job and was so open to the idea of condensing play calls and packages to make them a little bit more digestible for young players and he did a really good job of that but some of the west coast verbiage had stayed because there were some calls that andy could just list off and was so used to it It was almost like muscle memory. Which are a couple of those West Coast ideas that you still feel kind of permeate throughout this offense? Well, I think the movement past game, the naked game, and it's, you know, it's come full

circle. Now we're bringing people from the backside to run unders on naked when you never thought you could get a guy out that way. It was kind of sketchy to say, hey, the fullback's going to be on this side of the formation. We're going to fake run this way and he's going to end up. the backside. Now we see wide receivers do it. We see tight ends do it. That slice going back the other way. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. With an under and an over and a quarterback on the edge. A, it takes a little bit of an athletic quarterback.

B, you know, it doesn't always take a great run game because defenses are coached to look at the ball and the quarterback. And so if you flash the ball, they're moving that direction. It helps a lot if you have a nice running game, a laugh the Cleveland Browns, to be able to do that. But it's not ultimately necessary. It's so funny because if you look at it, I want to say that Patrick used play action on something like 31% of his dropbacks this year, which would have been one of the 10 highest rates in the entire league, yet they're the past happiest team in the NFL. And that understanding of how much you need to run the ball to make play action still effective is such an indication, I think, of how forward-thinking Andy is

and understanding that it still has effect even if we're not going to be this team that pounds the ball away all the time. Yeah, he does. And then you go flip to the other side and he's playing Buffalo the first time around and Leslie was going to play a six-man box and, you know, it's just kind of one of those things.

You're going to let us run a ball like that? Well, we're going to go ahead and do that. I actually text him after that game and I said, excuse me, 26 passes, 46 runs. this is an official notice that you'll be receiving a letter about a revocation of your West Coast offense card. You guys seem to have such a great relationship, and I think there's such a reason that he wanted you around to kind of build this thing in Kansas City. What do you think is the biggest change you've seen in him over the last 15 to 20 years as a coach?

geez you know it would have to be to me it would have to be the X and O part of it the thing that I was amazed at and and we had this talk going back in the bowels of veteran stadium where the rats were chasing the cats that I said to him coach I got to tell you something and you take you for what it's worth you can't ever lose your voice in that offensive meeting room because there's plenty of coaches, including me, who you do it for a couple of years and then you let your coordinator install. From the time I got at Kansas City in 2013 and he left Philadelphia, however ceremoniously or unceremoniously, he said, I'm getting back to what I like to do and why I got in this business. And it's to coach.

I'm going to have somebody to do the personnel part of it. but he did every installation, Robert, every one of them, from Tuesday to Saturday morning to Saturday night putting the top 15 in with the team. He did every single installation. Now, he might bring me up and introduce a special play, and this is how this, because I've installed for him before as his coordinator in Philadelphia, he might bring Matt up to do a red zone, but he installed every play, every day, and I know he's still doing that. He has his fingerprints on this.

His imprint is on every single thing they do offensively. And I think that that's a rarity when you have someone of his stature that's been doing it for as long as he has. Even talking to guys there, I remember Mitchell Schwartz told me that. He is in everything they do. And I think it's such a huge reason for the success that they've had. Exactly. And he can sell it like it's his because it is his.

I mean, whether he grabbed it or stole it or made it his own or. or shaped it around. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. And again, we don't mind taking something and using it if it's going to work. How do you think Patrick has informed the way that Andy sees the game now? Oh, what I think Patrick has done is, you know, there are a lot of naysayers. Obviously, I know where he was drafted, but, and we talked to all those guys,

but there are a lot of naysayers that watched him, you know, his 1,300 snaps and said, geez, he doesn't have the feet, and his hips are the wrong way, and he doesn't get shoulders perpendicular to throw. But he was playing in a wide, wide, wide open offense. And so he had the ability to see the field. He wasn't a tunnel vision guy. And, you know, whereas people wanted to hop on the other side and say, the guy hasn't played in their center, all they're playing is that run and shoot stuff, the K-gun or whatever the heck they call. To me, there's no downside of that. I mean, any kind of rookie quarterback that you get in there, if he's well versed in the passing game, even if it's all he ever saw was rush three and drop eight, at least he's been in that.

So he has eyes for that. And so I think there's no such thing as overloading a guy like Patrick. He can hang with you and he can see all the stuff and do all the stuff that you're asking to do. It feels like when you guys watched him and when Andy watched him and Brett watched him and everything else, they saw possibilities where other people saw limitations. I would say that's exactly the truth. You know, you wanted to be a one-size-fits-all. You know, how big was his hand?

How tall is he, you know, does he stay in the pocket? Does he start for two or three years? It's not one-size-fits-all, as we're finding out. There's something, and I think Andy knew that back when he took Donovan McNap. There's something to being able to have the quarterback, as we say, not be an iron deer on the lawn standing back there in the pocket. He doesn't move anywhere. But somewhere that guy's going to have to make a play and it's going to have to be off schedule.

Do you remember the first time you ever heard Andy talk about Patrick or came to talk to you about him? I do. I first of all, remember Veach, you know, up and down, you know, sending those text messages where you got a snippet of a play or two plays or three plays. And then it made you kind of want to go back and get into college foul, even though you were in the season just to let me look at a couple of these plays. But I can remember that and I can remember, you know, the whole quorum. Brett and Andy and Matt, myself, and probably a couple other guys looking at and saying, this is a guy that we need to go after. Last thing I'll ask you, as someone who's known him for so long and as a friend of his,

how rewarding has it been for you, him winning it last year, and just seeing his kind of stature within the game change and to see him kind of cement himself as somebody who's going to go down as one of the greatest coaches of all time? Yeah, I mean, it's gratifying that he's been able to, reach that echelon because I felt like he was there a long time ago. Yep. And we, I can remember a Saturday morning where we had our old guy that we worked for at Northern Arizona, 93-year-old Larry Contera was there.

He was on Frank Cush's dad. He was our head coach. We worked for him. And Jim Nance and Andy are walking out of the walkthrough in the morning. And Larry was one of those guys that would say anything to anybody at any time. And he said, hell, you've done it. You've done a hell of a job, Andy. You've done a hell of a job.

He goes, hell, all you need to do is go out there won those, win one of those Super Bowl. I mean, shit, that's the only thing you're missing on your resume. And I kind of turn red, you know, and he probably did too. But, you know, here's Larry spitting out and saying it, you know, for God and everybody to hear. When was that? What year was that? Oh, boy, you touched me on that. It probably would have been about four years ago, four years ago, yeah.

Well, now he has one. And now he's going for number two. So it's been a fun ride to watch And I'm sure it's been a fun ride to be along for as much as you have been. Yeah, it's awesome, really awesome. Awesome. Brad, thank you so, so much for the time. It's always great to chat with you.

I sincerely appreciate you taking it out. Yeah, my pleasure, Robert. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Brad Childress for joining us. Thank you to Lindsay, as always. Really fun show. We will be back tomorrow. Not exactly sure who's going to be on quite yet.

I know Nate and I are going to be doing a deep dive, deep X's and O's dive. on this entire game. Ted Nguyen is going to be joining us as well to talk about some specific concepts. He's excited to watch during the Super Bowl. I'm hoping we have another special guest. We haven't locked it down yet,

so I don't want to tease it too much. But we'll be back tomorrow. Thank you so much for listening. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate that. You'd be doing me in favor. Please subscribe to the Athletic.

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