The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Brandin Cooks to Dallas, Laremy Tunsil's extension, C.J. Gardner-Johnson to Detroit, and more from the weekend with Jeff Howe

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

While the sports world spent the weekend focused on brackets, the NFL kept on humming. Brandin Cooks is a Cowboy! C.J Gardner-Johnson is a Lion! Laremy Tunsil got a huge extension! Robert Mays and Jeff Howe dig into the moves that took place over the weekend, and a handful of other lingering free agency thoughts, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Jeff on Twitter: @jeffphoweSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube1:53 Brandin Cooks to the Cowboys11:17 The Stephon Gilmore trade from the Colts POV17:04 Laremy Tunsil signs a massive extension19:44 Adam Thielen to the Panthers21:23 C.J. Gardner-Johnson to the Lions, and the safety market at large28:27 Why did Darius Slay to back to the Eagles?30:47 The Raiders' QB search and start to the offseason52:44 The Patriots' need for playmakers60:05 WR dominoes64:52 Austin Ekeler's trade request69:06 How does the Lamar Jackson situation play out? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert May is joining me today. It's the Athletics National NFL Insider, somebody I'm very excited to have on. It's Jeff Howe. Jeff, thank you very much for doing this, my friend. Of course.

Thanks for having me. Happy Monday. Yes, it is Monday. If my voice sounds a little worse for the wear, I apologize. I spent the weekend in New Orleans yelling about various things. We're going to be fine. We're going to get through this.

It's going to be all right. lot of stuff to dig into a few things that happened yesterday that I just kind of want to play clean up about, you know, some fairly big moves. Let's start with the Cowboys trading for Brandon Cooks. Not a ton to give up for Brandon Cooks, a fifth round pick this year, a sixth round pick next year. By all accounts, the Texans will pay $6 million of his salary this season. The Cowboys will pick up $12 million. He's also under contract for about $16 million in 2024. Jeff, when you saw this, would you make you the move? Well, it seemed like something that the Texans were going to do.

I know that they had been working with Cooks to an extent since last year during the trade deadline. Nothing obviously materialized until this past week. But teams had been checking in on him for several weeks at this point. And I thought it was interesting from the Cowboys perspective just because their defense is already loaded. You know, they got Stefan Gilmore, which is huge. But getting cooks, just another complimentary piece, trying to do whatever you can. to free up seedy lamb. I mean, Cook's is, he's still a productive receiver.

He's got his limitations. And I think everybody knowing that he was on the trade block or was at least potentially available, especially with that contract, he was never going to go for that high of an amount in terms of draft capital. But I thought it was a good decision for the Cowboys to pick him up because they need to have a more well-rounded or a more versatile passing attack than the one they had last year. when they got into some trouble when they couldn't get anything going beyond CD Lamb. Well, let's talk about this from the Texans perspective first.

I understand wanting to deal him just because of where you're at as being competitive and, you know, he's pretty expensive. But now you're potentially dropping the second overall pick onto a roster where Nico Collins is the best receiver. I guess Robert Woods. I mean, what they've done this offseason, they have a solid group of receivers. But I still thought that Brandon, Cook's being there made it a little bit more hospitable for whatever rookie you were going to drop

into that situation. It doesn't seem like they prioritize that though. Yeah, I mean, again, he's he's going to put up some numbers wherever he goes, but he's not always going to get you a lot after the catch. And, you know, he's, he is getting up there. I know he's still a relative young receiver. But like, you know, he's young relative for how long it feels like he's been in the league, I guess. He came in young. But, you know, he's, he's young. I just he's not part of the future plans whatever the Texans are building toward and this has been a long long rebuild and it's still sort of in those middle phases I like some of the moves that they've made but I understand why you just wanted to move on without him continue to reset the books although they should be coming out of that the vast majority of that at this point but you're you know the other part is the wide receivers are just it's such a deep class it's always a deep wide receiver class. at this point. So you can replenish that position if you draft the right ones. Yeah, it seems like they just kind of pieced it together with multiple guys, right?

Now they have Robert Woods. They brought in Noah Brown. They drafted John Matchy in the second round yesterday. So even if there isn't that kind of quote unquote number one guy that you can build the passing game through, they still have a decent amount of options with the way that they've built it with multiple pieces. For Dallas, though, I think it makes so much sense. If you're looking at the wide receiver landscape this off season for a team like the Cowboys in the timeline that they're on,

Brandon Cooks was probably one of the best two or three solutions that you were going to be able to find. We're talking about guys like DeAndre Hopkins, Brandon Cooks, because of how thin the wide receiver free agent market was. So even though he's 30 and he's a little bit expensive, $12 million for 30-year-old Brandon Cooks this year for fifth and sixth round picks, that's not a lot to give up if you're Dallas, especially because this might have been the best case scenario for how if they could improve, not only their number two receiver spot, but kind of the guy they needed.

They needed a little bit of vertical speed. They needed this particular skill set. And to find it for this price, I think you have to feel pretty damn good about this if you're the Cowboys. Yeah, their offense got faster, which is interesting. And like you were saying, that's one of the biggest storylines of the past week is just how depleted the veteran wide receiver market is. And that's why you've seen teams try to make some trades. the bigger names have been more expensive because the teams that hold those players know they have so much leverage. And in terms of free agency, when you look at Jacoby Myers and Juju Smith-Schuster and Odell Beckham maybe, depending on how teams think of him or view him, it's just, it's not, you don't have any true number ones out there.

And not that the Cowboys needed a number one, but when you're trying to get a quality number two and you look at what free agents are going to cost, because you've got the middle class of that market, they're all of a sudden going to cost a lot more. So in terms of cost effectiveness, getting a guy like Cooks for a team like the Cowboys that's trying to win right now was absolutely a smart play. It's interesting going back over the last year, right, and seeing how they've tried to piece together after losing Amari Cooper.

So you're paying Cook's $12 million this year, and he's under contract for $16 million next year. Amari, I think, was around $20 million in base salary each season. And he was about two years younger. And the trade price is not all that different. So they've essentially swapped out, Brandon Cooks for Amari Cooper, cooks being two years older and a little bit less expensive.

But we know the Amari Cooper thing was a personality thing. It was a locker room thing. But how these teams kind of have to atone for some of these moves when they let go a player like Amari Cooper is always interesting. And this feels like the correction from that trade when they couldn't figure out another way to find that. that skill set again. Yeah, I mean, the depth of their receiver group last year took a hit without Cooper. Yeah. And whatever reason they ultimately determined was why they couldn't keep him, you know,

financially, personality, whatever it happened to be, they weren't as good of a football team without him. And when you talk about market correction, you know, teams will reset a year from now or realize, okay, this is what we did last year. How do we make a more productive move this time around? And they're, that's when teams getting a lot of trouble, especially at a position that pays that costs a premium for high quality talent. So, I mean, we'll see how Dallas kind of comes out of this and feels about it. So now you're looking at them, top to bottom. You have Michael Gallup a year removed from the injury,

CD Lamb after the season he had last year, Brandon Cooks. Now CD Lamb may be able to slide naturally back into the slot with Cooks being your other outside receiver. They retained their offensive line, essentially with Tyrone Smith coming back, Tyler Smith will potentially be able to play left guard. Terrence Steele is a restricted free agent. Beaudish and Zach Martin are back.

You have the young tight ends. Dak, obviously, and then Tony Pollard back on the franchise tag. I can mess with that. Yeah. That's not a bad point on which to start. In terms of your personnel on offense this season, and we just said they retained pretty much everyone that was a free agent on their defense.

They got Donovan Wilson back at Price. Leighton Van der Leyen Vandreche came back. They made the trade for Stefan Gilmore, and they did it all without really breaking the bank for any of these guys. They had to do a lot of restructures in order to free up even the space for Gilmore and for Cooks. But it's not like they went crazy and free agency. They don't really ever. That's not how this team operates. So to be able to kind of stick with who you want to be and how you're building this thing and still get a lot better at a reasonable price tag.

I think it's hard to argue with the approach that the Cowboys took over the last couple weeks. Yeah, and they still have the opportunity to replace Zique with some quality veteran talent in a free agency if they choose. The running back draft class is loaded. I mean, I know everybody's kind of looking at Bijan as a possibility, which would be an incredible tandem with him and Pollard. But either way, I mean, this offense is stacked. The defense is as talented as anybody in the league. depending on how things shake out with Philly and San Francisco, you know, through the course of free agency and the draft, I mean, you could look at Dallas in a couple

months and say this team coming out of the offseason is the most talented team in football. Now, they're still going to have the same questions. Can you deliver in the playoffs? Can Mike McCarthy get over the hump that he hasn't been able to in the last decade? So, yeah, I mean, they're going to show up in week one with 18. that is as talented, if not more talented than the rest of the league. But that's not going to change the perception that they're going to need to answer until January.

Now Mike McCarthy has left himself very few excuses that this goes poorly. He's the play caller now. He's the guy in the ship, and they have a pretty good set of players. So they get to the end of the year and there's another disappointing finish. There's really no other fingers to point. So it's going to be a fascinating few months here as we get into the season with the Cowboys. is one more thing I want to talk about with Dallas, the Stefan Gilmore trade from the Colts perspective.

What do you think this move particularly says about what the Colts want to do and how they view themselves? Because I think you thought it was a little bit surprising. Yeah, I had to do a trade grade story after this one. I gave the Cowboys an A plus and I gave the Colts an F. I mean, I just, I love the move for Dallas. But in terms of Indy, what are you doing? I mean, a year ago, you signed Stefan Gilmore for,

And it was sort of deep into free agency. You signed Gilmore for a very competitive contract when there were a lot of questions about him coming off of the knee and the hip slash leg injury that he kind of helped that he dealt with at the end of his time with the Patriots. And Gilmore came out and played tremendous. I mean, he might have been their best player on either side of the ball last year. He made clutch plays. He answered every injury question and played at a high level. So Dallas is getting a number one cornerback and the Colts just gave one up. And there are only two possible explanations.

And if Gilmore said this already and I missed it, that that's, you know, Mayacalpa here, unless Gilmore said, look, I don't want to be a part of this anymore. Please get rid of me and send me to a team that can win. Then, okay, I understand it a little more from the Colts perspective. The other side is, you know, a week ago when it happened, I thought, okay, well, are you clearing the books for a run at Lamar Jackson? right now that doesn't look like it's happening. So I just, I don't really understand it.

You went into this trying to get Gilmore for a couple of years. Now granted, this time a year ago or when you signed Gilmore, you thought you were going to be a much more competitive team. And since then, everything has been stripped down. So I understand they're trying to reset their books. Saw that with other moves, especially Matt Ryan, although that was predictable. But it's a team right now that is, I mean, you talked about the Texans.

And what are you going to do for? their quarterback. I mean, the Colts are almost certainly going to be drafting a quarterback, and you've got to wonder how much they have around him to be successful. It was always going to be an awkward transition from we feel like we can be competitive to, we're kind of rebuilding now, and just in the sense that we're going to draft a quarterback in the top five, and we were one of the best teams in the NFL last year. So they haven't really added much talent at all of this off season. I mean, really the only splashy type move that they made, was their Samson Ebukam, and they needed to add another pass rush or somewhere.

I mean, they have absolutely nothing on the edge. Even with all the guys they've drafted at that position over the last few years, it still feels like they had a hole there. But other than that, I mean, bringing back EJ. Speed, I mean, that's really the only thing they've done in terms of spending money this off season, which makes sense when you're in this weird team building purgatory that they're in. They bring in Gardner, Minshue potentially as a backup quarterback, but is he like the bridge guy?

They were always going to have a strange offseason because of how hard the bottom fell out. And I don't really feel any differently about that after the first week of free agency. No, this is a team that is at a rebuild much earlier than they anticipated. And because of that, it looks like it's going to be a multi-year project unless they absolutely hit a home run with the draft at quarterback. and that player ends up being the perfect marriage with Stuyken, and all of a sudden they start to blow away expectations. But realistically, what's your ceiling even if all of that stuff comes to fruition? I mean, you're still trying to rebuild at so many different positions.

The offensive line fell apart much quicker than anybody anticipated. And they haven't done a single thing. It's the same group that it was at the end of last season. Right. And that's tough from a self-evaluation standpoint. And, you know, granted, like us as outsiders, we all thought, I know I thought pretty highly of the Colts last year, and that was a whiff for people like, or me, I'll just say it was me.

I don't want to love you into that. You certainly can let me into that. Don't worry. So, I mean, I remember I visited the Colts camp last year and I wrote something like, well, with Matt Ryan, now the QB Carousel in India is coming to a stop. So, I mean, there were, there were a lot of things that went wrong, a lot faster. But when you're the Colts and you have a chance, you know, you talk about looking back and trying to figure out what went wrong, there were some missed evaluations that got them to this

point a lot faster than anybody could have anticipated. Yeah, I just don't know what the plan is, I'm sure, because they don't really know exactly what the plan is or should be. It's just such a strange thing when you have to turn the page this fast and kind of reset your expectations, your thought process, all these, all these things. And it kind of feels like that's where they're at right now. Staying in the NFC South, geez, staying in the AFC South very quickly here. I don't think we have to spend a ton of time on this,

but when a player resets the market at a certain position, probably worth mentioning, Laramie Tunsell and the Texans agreed to an extension, according to Aaron Wilson, three years, $75 million, $30 million signing bonus, $50 million fully guaranteed.

It's amazing what a player can do when he's given an unbelievable amount of leverage in a trade and then just continues to sign short-term deals over and over and over again. Good for Laramette Tunsell and his agent. Absolutely. Absolutely nailed it. And he, by the time he gets a chance to restructure that deal or hits free agency, whatever,

he's still only going to be, I think about 30, 30, maybe 31. So he's going to continue to get paid. So good for him. He's representing himself, actually. Oh, there you go. To go out and handle this string of negotiations as successfully as he has is amazing work. And he's doing everything correctly on the field to get himself paid. So it looked like for a while, maybe he was going to be a trick.

candidate, but he's going to stick in Houston. And again, whichever quarterback has him protecting them is going to be better for it. So right now, let's look at it so far. So through his first seven seasons, Laramate Tunsell has made $70 million playing football. He's set to make $18 million in cash this year. And then I assume we'll have after that another $42 million in guarantees coming over the following two years. So we're looking at about $140 million in career earnings for Larry Muntzel by the time he turns 30 as a non-quarterback. That's a pretty good stretch, pretty good stretch, my friend.

Yeah, I've had, I'm 35. I've had a similar run here over the last decade or so. All right. One more, a couple more just quick signings here from yesterday. The Panthers signed Adam Thie one, three years, $25 million, $14 million guaranteed. I think it makes sense. I mean, after losing DJ Moore, they had a hole at receiver. You know, this is a modest contract.

It's a guy that if you're trying to rebuild that room and they use a draft pick on it, he's somebody that I think can be sort of a veteran presence for that group. It's a stabilizing force, if anything. What do you think of the feeling move for Carolina? Good move from a culture perspective. And they just, it's like everything Carolina does this offseason seems like the right move. I mean, from Frank Reich. to his coaching staff to move.

I mean, we'll see. Time will determine whether moving up to number one was the right move, but they control the draft. And they're gonna finally get their quarterback of the future. And it's just getting in a guy like Thielen is going to help the middle part of that depth chart. And again, you've got a true professional in that room to continue to, you know,

it seemed like the leadership was in a really good spot last year. And he should only further that. Yeah, and again, just having a guy that's been there, done that, all of it, and is getting older now, but it's $7 million a year. You know, it's not like they broke the bank for him. He can be a reliable option for them. They went out and got Von Bell and free agency. It's going to be an interesting team at the very least. Obviously, the quarterback question is the biggest question.

Who are they going to take? When are they going to play that guy? But, you know, they're a team that I'm excited to watch this year and excited to see how it plays out. And that has not necessarily been the case in the past. Speaking of those teams, the Lions go out and sign CJ Gardner Johnson, one year up to $8 million, $6.5 million guaranteed. What did you think of this? Because my first reaction was, it seems like a pretty soft market for a guy like C.J. Gardner Johnson. Yeah, I mean, it's a tough.

Free agency is tough this year on a number of. It really is. He's an outstanding player on the field. I mean, I know he, you know, teams have some concerns with him. but in terms of the fit, that's one of my favorite signings for anybody over the last week because he's just such a hard-nosed player. He brings an attitude. He brings a ton of toughness. And that's basically every characteristic that has defined the Lions for the last two years. I mean, even two years ago when they weren't good or they weren't winning, I mean, I talked to

people who played against them and was like, it sucked playing the line. Like they'd go into it knowing they were going to win or they felt like they would or whatever, but they weren't an easy team to play against. And they got better a lot faster than anybody anticipated. I thought people thought they were teams around the league, thought the Lions were on their way up or felt pretty confident that they were on their way up. But what the Lions did down the stretch was really impressive. And they play hard.

They execute well. Dan Campbell really has everything going in the right direction. I mean, he's got Jared Goff playing at a really good, a productive level of quarterbacking there. If I can figure out of the words to spit on here. It's early. It is early. But like, I love the Gardner Johnson signing for them because he embodies everything that they want.

That's what I said last week. He was one of my favorite fits before free agency was sending him there. It's fun that it actually ended up working out that way. But I anticipated that it would be for a fairly big number. You know, nothing crazy, but, you know, just normal market level safety numbers. But it's one year and up to $8 million. And I think that that is just not the type of. of money I thought he'd get, the type of security I thought he'd get.

It's a pretty soft market overall for the safety's. Julian Love only got $6 million a year from Seattle. Jordan Porter only got $5 million a year to go back to Buffalo. Juan Thornhill got $7 million a year to go to Cleveland. The Thornhill is probably in line with what we anticipated. But everything that hasn't been the Jesse Bates deal has been pretty much $7,8 million or less for all of these guys, what Von Bell got from Carolina. So it really does feel like teams are not willing to pay up for

the middle of that safety market. And we've seen the same thing at corner. Obviously, those deals are bigger, but teams are not willing to push up that second level of the cornerback market. And it feels like they're taking the same approach with safety. And I think that that's pretty telling. Yeah, you know,

I think this is going to be sort of a general blanket type of statement. So it's not true for the entire veteran safety group of free agents. But I was talking to a coach over the weekend. And he was saying that there are like seven or eight really good safeties. And then from there, there's just a very expansive middle class. And these guys aren't asked whether they're, I don't know, whether it's just the style of play or whether it's what they're asked or not asked to do. They don't make plays the way that, you know,

maybe the Ed Reed, Troy Palomalu generation, Rodney Harris and guys like that used to, I don't know, 10 plus years ago. And then you kind of incorporate a lot of these two high safety shell looks that teams are having to try to mitigate the downfield throws of the Mahomes and the boroughs and Herberts and Josh Allen's. And it's just it's a more conservative position because of that. And again, this is more of a general theory than in, you know, trying to say, you know, safety class isn't good enough or whatever. Because, again, there are exceptions to every rule. Every safety kind of brings something a little different to the table. But I think maybe that's why you're seeing somewhat of a suppressed market.

I don't disagree with that at all. And I think that it's more about making sure you have reliable players at that spot than spending up for star level or difference making players at that spot. I think that's the general approach philosophically, schematically, and I think that that has trickled down to the money that we're seeing these guys make. But that has been to the lion's benefit because now you've got C.J. Gardner Johnson there, Emmanuel Mosley there in a cheap one-year deal. They signed Cam Sutton on a really reasonable second tier of free agent cornerback

markets deal. And now there aren't really that many holes in that secondary and on that roster. Kirby Joseph played very well for them as a rookie last year. And one of my biggest questions coming into free agency is, what kind of splash would the lions make on defense with some of the resources that they had? They had some financial wiggle room. What would that splash look like? And it hasn't really been one splash for.

one player. They've signed multiple guys to fill holes. They have a ton of pieces in the front seven with guys they've drafted over the last couple years. The linebacker group, we could still pull holes in. They brought Alex Anzolone back. I was thinking maybe they'd go outside forever that second guy was next to Malcolm Rodriguez. But now if you look at it back to front, top to bottom, that group is pretty solid. And combined with the offense that they have, I tweeted this out yesterday. They're signing these guys to one year prove it deals. And with the way that they're the offense played last year. I think if you're trying to read the writing on the wall,

I think the Lions think they're going to be pretty good this year. And I don't necessarily blame them with the way that this offseason has gone. They should absolutely feel that way, just the way last season ended. And then you look at some of the hits that the top of the NFC is taken in terms of free agency the last week. This is a group that's going to come in and they're going to be really competitive. And I think the other part that I like is they've got that,

where are they at number six in the draft? Yeah. They could go anywhere now. I mean, everybody's kind of mocking a cornerback to them at six, and they could still take a corner if they want to. But adding, what, three or four really quality pieces to the secondary over the past week has set them up to say, hey, you know what? We can draft a quarterback if they want to.

They could go pretty much in any direction. And that's got to be a pretty nice sense of confidence for an, organization that has not walked into many drafts saying, hey, we can do whatever we want. We can take the best player available because they're answering a lot of the questions that they had going into the week. I think that's the goal, too, is that you want to make sure that you can walk into the draft the sixth overall pick and not be painted into a corner and have to take a player at a certain position.

That's what free agency can do for you. You don't want any of these. You don't want a manual Mosley to prevent you from drafting a cornerback in the top six if you think he's the guy because this is a multi-year consideration. But by plugging some of these holes, you don't look at a depth chart and say, if we don't come away with them the top 10, with exposition, we're in trouble. You never want to be operating that way. So while we're on Eagles defensive backs, just very quickly, you've done some reporting on this. And I wanted to ask you, any sense of what happened with Darius Slay and the Eagles and why that kind of reunion took shape after it seemed like they were going to move on from him?

Yeah, that was a wild day and a half there. And it kind of predated that too because Slay was talking with the Eagles about a new deal. I think it was mutually beneficial for those sides to get something done. And when they realized they were a little farther apart in talks than they hoped to be, the Eagles said, all right, well, if this is the money you're looking for, you're free to seek a trade. And Slay had not asked permission to seek a trade. The Eagles basically invited him to do so. And then when it got down to, you know, the final hours, I think it was before the new league year.

The sides kind of realized that a trade wasn't going to happen and they were still too far apart on the contract. So the Eagles said, hey, we're releasing you. You know, thanks for your time and, you know, good luck with wherever you're going. And then as the day went on and they realized they still had some time to get something done, cooler heads prevailed or however it was. And the Eagles said, hey, you know what? based off of some of the losses that they'd had in free agency, let's try to figure out if we can keep this thing going

because Slay wanted to stay in Philly. The Eagles obviously wanted Slaid to stay there because of how well he's been playing since that trade. And they got something done. And, you know, a story or two like this happens every now and then. Yeah. Right before the trade deadline. Sometimes you see it before roster cuts at the end of August

or right before Labor Day. And for this one, it was such a high profile type of player that it gained a lot of attention. and it was fascinating to see it all play out basically in real time. He has this $26 million cap hit this year. I wonder if they do anything to bring that down. I'm sure they're not super incentivized to do so because this is the last year of his deal. He already, I believe, has a $14 million cap hit next season based on some of the funny money stuff that they've done.

But that's a pretty big hit for one guy. And they're up against the cap. So we'll see if that number comes down. He has a $17 million base salary. So potentially they could do something with that. All right. Let's move on to a couple of the bigger things you've been chipping away at here over the last couple weeks.

He's done a lot of work on the Raiders offseason and what they've done at quarterback. Obviously, they landed on Jimmy Garapolo on a fairly modest deal when you compare it to some of the other veteran contracts that have been handed out this off season. But they also were sniffing around for a couple different avenues to find their quarterback this spring. Can you just walk me through what the Raiders quarterback acquisition plan has, looked like in the post Derek Carr world. If you were a quarterback, they were looking at you, whether you move about it or not. So, yeah, if you could throw a football over them mountains, trust me, the Raiders were looking for you.

It was, it was interesting because they really did. They tried, they looked at every possible avenue. And the Garoppolo fit was so natural from the start, but that didn't mean that they weren't going to look at other opportunities before that. And one of those was Aaron Rogers. And they called the Packers. And for whatever reason, whether it was Rogers didn't want to go there or it was the Packers weren't going to trade them to the Raiders, the price wasn't. Whatever it was, it's just the talks never really advanced too far.

And the Raiders realized that that wasn't an opportunity. That wasn't a possibility. They explored trading with the Bears. It wasn't, that wasn't a negotiation that really got too far. The Raiders knew what the bears were asking for in terms of making a, a move this early in the offseason. So the Raiders were comfortable standing pat there and just reshifting their focus to Garoplo. And like you said, it was a pretty modest deal. I mean, I thought that he was going to get somewhere around 30 per year. And it ended up being,

I mean, if he hits all of his incentives, it's like right around 25. So, you know, that's a good move for the Raiders. And they're at seven, whether that's going to be high enough for them to get one of those top four quarterbacks, if they even like all four of them enough to spend the seven and pick on them. You know, that's going to be the next course of action. And they have to determine do they want to move up into the top five to try to get one of those guys? They have to figure out at some point in the next two weeks or so in the pro day circuit, if they don't already know by now, if they love any of those guys enough. Because you're obviously not getting the first one.

You're almost certainly not getting the second one, assuming the Texans are going to like one of those guys enough to go to two. But then there's just so many wild cards in front of them. that, you know, can you move up to three? How expensive is that going to be for the Cardinals to relinquish that pick, especially knowing how much traffic there is behind them on the quarterback market? So it's a real tricky proposition. I know McDaniels isn't going to force himself to like somebody just because, you know, just because you realize, okay, let's say, hypothetically,

it costs two first round picks to get up to number three. It's going to cost more than that. Let's say it's two first and a second to get up to number three. You still have to figure out whether or not you like one of those guys. You know, Trout and Young are off the board. Do you like Levist? Do you like Richardson? Do you like them enough to sacrifice draft capital in future years?

Or are you willing to ride it out with Garoppolo and figure out where the best quarterback will be in the second and third round or, you know, so forth? I thought that Garoppolo deal made sense for both sides in this respect. They can move on after this season if they need to, right? It's not $19 million in dead money. And I think as a bridge quarterback contract, like the upper, upper levels of the bridge quarterback contract, that's tolerable.

You have an option for this year if you don't land the quarterback, but if you do, you can move on, eat $19 million in debt cap when you're working off of a rookie quarterback contract together as a quarterback room, you can afford that. But for Jimmy,

getting $34 million guaranteed at signing, that's a nice chunk of change. Like, that's not that far off from what Gino Smith got from the Seahawks, and he's still going to get probably $34, $40 million total coming out of this, even if he's only there for a year. So I think it is a realistic, beneficial kind of agreement for both of those sides. But I still am just so intrigued by the idea of them landing one of these young guys,

because even without Waller, I still feel like it's a decent landing spot for a young quarterback because of Devante, Hunter Enfro, now having Jacoby Myers. We've seen Josh McDaniels be a very solid play caller over the years. They have a left tackle in place, even if they haven't done much else with their offensive line. And the reason I wanted to happen this year is just because it's ready made right now. Let's say you wait until next year because you don't love any of these guys. There's no telling you're going to be in a position to draft a quarterback next year based on how you could finish. Let's say they're a middle of the road team.

They finish nine and eight. You know, they have the 16th pick in next year's draft. it's going to be even harder to maneuver your maneuver your way up the draft to find one of these guys. So now you're living that Jimmy G at $28 million, that $28 million price tag life. You're kind of one of those middle of the road teams. You're not really a contender with him. You're trying to build around him. But again, $28 million isn't nothing.

So you're having a little bit of an impediment, putting pieces around him. And now you're kind of in this awkward middle ground that you were trying to avoid by potentially drafting a guy in the, this draft. So how they're going to negotiate the rookie part of this because it still feels like they need one. And you wrote that, that it still feels like they need one. That now becomes the big question. And I don't know what the easy answer is. Yeah, I mean, bringing in Garapolo is, it's a solid move. It's going to help you win more now. But if you're talking about the future and, you know, like Caleb Williams in 2024 is now not realistic. Like you're not going to lose enough to get the number one pick. Assuming Caleb Williams gets that number one pick,

whoever has it is not giving it up unless it's like a total extreme situation where, you know, you've got a team with a franchise quarterback and goes down, whatever. Like, you're not getting Caleb Williams and you're not going to lose enough because Jimmy Garoppolo's too good to allow something like that to happen. I think the marriage with McDaniels, again, assuming that he's healthy is going to be a solid one. So they're in a tough spot there. And it's a marriage of winning now and building for the future. And like when Mark Davis hired Dave Ziegler and Josh McDaniels, there was a long-term commitment in place.

But I think last year with the way they lost some of those games and then with the way McDaniels has been such a target for some in the media, because of his Denver failure, because he came from the Belichick tree, once you start losing tough games, that that spotlight gets a whole lot brighter and a whole lot hotter. And I don't think anybody probably could have anticipated him taking as much heat midway and late into the season to the point where the owner had to answer questions saying that he was going to have Josh McDaniels back for a second season. So if you're McDaniels, you know you have to try to win now, which is an impetus for getting a guy like Garopolo. But you know, you still have to be realistic about some of the holes on the roster defensively, potentially in the offensive line. and trying to build some of those positions that really truly matter. And then the other part of the equation is, okay, if you don't want a quarterback at seven, McDaniels is going into this saying, all right, I developed Matt Castle into a starter. He was a seventh round pick.

I developed Jimmy Garoppolo into a short-term starter, into a starter for another team. He was a second round pick. Chikobi Brissette, third round pick. Jarrett Stitton played two good games for him last year. as a fourth rounder previously with the Patriots. You look at, you know, even Mac Jones is the 15th pick, the fifth quarterback off the board a couple of years ago. He was, he finished second and offensive rookie of the year voting

in his one season with McDaniels and had all sorts of issues last year because there was just no continuity on the coaching staff in New England. So if you're McDaniels and you have all of this evidence, you have to feel confident that wherever you find that quarterback that you like, you're going to be able to develop him. It's just you're also going to be realistic that like if it's a sixth round pick, it's probably not going to happen in 2024. It's such an interesting debate that they're probably having internally.

Okay, you're sitting at seven. Let's say you do have to give up the seventh pick next year's first and maybe some change to go up to three. and you know you like one of Richardson Stroud and Bryce Young. Whatever one, two happens, if you land with the third one of those guys, you'll feel okay about it. I just kind of feel like you have to do it because I still think this is going to be your best opportunity to do it. And if Richardson's the guy you love and you think he's going to be the guy who's

available at three, you can play Jimmy G this season. And then you can have your cake and eat it too because now you can be competitive. you can show ownership that you're making some progress. You try to see if you can win nine, ten games this year. And then you have an even longer off ramp as a coaching staff. You can say, all right, now you got to let us play it out with our guy. You got to see how he's going to develop. This is the future.

You know, give us two, three years to really show you what he can do. I feel like that is still the best case scenario here for that. Because even if you're giving up that future first round pick, how many holes you have, you have too many holes to build the championship caliber roster with Jimmy Garoppel over the next two to three years. Just like point blank. I don't think that that is incorrect or unfair to say. So I still think you need that situation shifting, game changing type quarterback prospect

with the team as it's currently constructed. So if that guy can start playing in 2024 in year two, Devante is only 31, it still feels like that is the best way to thread the needle for the next 24 months to go the perfect way for the Raiders. Yeah, you just have to be 100% convinced that that's the guy. And that was another thing. Like McDaniels is well aware of teams that have traded up into the top five, or not necessarily into the top five, but trading up in the top five or into the top five,

not a single one of those instances since 2005 has worked. and you can still say, you know, Tray Lance is still TBD. Every other instance was a failure. You're talking about Carson Wentz, Mark Sanchez. I'll push back on that, though. The Eagles won the Super Bowl,

and the Rams were a possession or two away from winning a Super Bowl with Jared golf on his rookie deal. But then what happened? I mean, you know, when you pay those guys, it can go wrong, but I still feel like the rookie quarterback window that you create with those guys gives you a decent amount of flexibility. So I think even if the second contracts for those players ended up going off the rails and

they were bad deals, in the short term, those moves have still given benefits to teams from a team building perspective. And I think that tapping into those benefits is still worth it in the aggregate when you're considering the decision. Yeah. So, but here's the other part. So you can say, and look, I thought, was it 16 or 17, when Carson Wentz was playing really well, then basically ended the season injured. He was an legitimate MVP candidate.

So his career was off to a good start. And yes, he helped the Eagles get basically set the path to get to the Super Bowl before Nick Foles obviously took over and won it for them and played like the greatest game in the history of quarterbacking. So there's that element. And Jared Goff absolutely was off to a really good start with the Rams, and then they completely split. But if you are, let's say you're just sitting there in the top five, or you were at one and two that year, and you just picked up those guys and ultimately three, four years from now, it doesn't work, and you were able to move him, so be it. If you're trading that much capital for a quarterback and you can't get him through his second contract,

in my opinion, that's just that failure. might be too strong in some cases, but that's not what you sign yourself up for. If you're trading up that much, you need 10, 12 years out of this guy at minimum. And I mean, really, the last case of one of these instances truly working wasn't even on purpose. It was because Eli Manning told San Diego, I'm not playing for you. Like, that's the last time a team traded up into the top five. It's really the only time the team has traded up into the top five in the last. 20 years that a team can say that they really felt good about it. And McDaniels is aware of that.

So you could sit there and say, all right, well, let's say Levis is the guy there at three. Well, and then, you know, here's another part. You have to watch the board on, play itself out on draft night because I don't think you can blindly trade into number three before the draft without knowing who you're going to get. Now, you can sit there and say, all right, I love these three guys and you can play the percentages and you don't want to get into a bidding more with the Colts or. anybody else on draft night. Maybe you want to make a more aggressive move. But typically, I think as you saw with the Panthers Bears deal, if you want to trade up early, that's usually

going to cost you a premium as well. So it's just, it's a really complicated situation. But it, the first thing that is absolutely mandatory is you have to be completely in love with that player you're getting at three. I agree with that. And I think there's really no way to know based on how the draft is going to unfold and what that's going to cost. But, I top three quarterbacks are very likely going to be gone by the fourth overall pick. So you just stuck with whoever you, whoever's left at seven. If you don't love that guy, you're probably not taking him. And then what do the next two years look like?

And I think I'll admit that I overstate that sometimes, you know, you talk to coaches, people in the league. Everyone's like, ah, you're, don't worry about that. Like this idea of, well, we can't get our quarterback later if we don't get them now. That's overstated. But I think for the Raiders specifically this year, they're just so well positioned to potentially do it and to move up for that guy if they like him. That is that is always it almost feels like I just as a blanket statement like always to take that into account like the if they like him

caveat is part of this conversation. Don't make me say it every single time. But I think that that's always going to be the question. If they like him, is it worth moving up? And my my gut feeling is that based on everything else in the way the team is built, it still is the best case scenario for them to come away from this draft with a guy they like from the top three, even if it required. a decent amount to move up. That's just how I feel about it. Yeah, and they should feel as McDaniel, well, first of all, every coach feels confident in their culture

and their ability to win and develop and all that stuff. But I do believe that McDaniels can develop whoever it is that he drafts. And I mean, I've seen it firsthand covering the Patriots for as long as I did. And the culture is important. You look at Trevor Lawrence, I mean, he was not a good quarterback as a rookie under Urban Meyer. Nobody would have been. And now Trevor Lawrence has a really good coaching staff and situation around him. And he's looking like the franchise, the wonder kind that he has been since the eighth grade. And again, Mack Jones in reverse. Great rookie season, very good rookie season.

And then a subpar second season. But what around him was conducive to success? Not enough. So if you believe in the culture that you have and the offensive system that you have and the rookie's ability or whatever quarterback, their ability to process all the information that you're going to throw with them and then eventually be successful, then you make that move. Last thing about the Raiders. Why do you think the Raiders would make the Waller Trade from their perspective? From their perspective, it was basically either Darren Waller or Jacobi Myers in a third round pick. And Myers can operate a similar section of the field as Waller, you know, over the middle. You can use him as a complementary piece or as a combination piece in some of the packages with Hunter Infro. Not comparing the players, but the situations to the way the Patriots.

it's used to lose, use Edelman and Amandola. So that's going to be part of your offense now. You've got Jacoby Myers, who is two, three, four years. He's younger than Darren Waller. I think it's four years. Jacobi Myers is 26. I believe Darren Waller's 30. Okay.

So four years younger than Darren Waller. And you look at the games missed from Waller over the last two years. You look at, you know, the production because of the games missed, including the touchdowns, have declined over the last. two years. And you've got Myers on an ascension, an ascending path. You've got a third round pick where you can potentially solve that tight end vacancy. And so basically that was the Raiders rationale. And yeah, I mean, I totally understand the sentiment of the Raiders fan base of, I can't believe you only got the 100th pick for Darren Waller. Like, I get that. Because last year, Darren Waller was worth

a second round pick. But last year, it was. wasn't the time to trade him. Now you're realizing, okay, well, what happens if you go into next season and Darren Waller gets hurt again? You're not getting a third round pick a year from now if you want to move him. You're not getting anything. You're basically cutting him as a cap casualty. But, you know, two things can be true. These things don't have to be mutually exclusive. The Giants made a good move for going after Darren Waller. Like there are, like sort of the Brandon Cook's thing that we talked about at the start of the show. Different players and different situations can be good or bad for certain teams at the same time, if that makes sense.

Oh, I don't have any issue with it from the Raiders point of view. I was just curious if that was the thinking. I think it does make sense for both sides. The Giants don't have that many avenues to pass catchers. It's a low risk move for a guy who has been a dynamic player in the league, even if he comes with risks at this stage in his career. And if you're the Raiders thinking about it in exactly those terms. All right, we have Jacoby Myers plus a third round pick.

Jacobi Myers is four years younger and has been healthier. He's a reliable piece in the offense. Now we get a top 100 pick as part of that equation. I get that from both sides. Absolutely. I was just curious if that was the mindset that ultimately led to the deal. Let's go from Patriots West here a little bit, back to Patriots 1.0 in Foxborough. You obviously spent a long time covering this team.

I just wanted to ask you what you make of their plan with the past catchers this offseason. They went out and signed Mike is sickie this weekend. Obviously someone who has history with Bill O'Brien was recruited there at Penn State. So now it's juju and Mike Gisicki in the big moves they've made on that side of the ball, along with Bill O'Brien. Some smaller ones that brought in Riley Reef. You know, you reported that it's with potentially having a starting role in mind within that offense. Overall, just what do you make of the Patriots plan to improve those circumstances around Mack Jones in the year two? Still think they need another piece.

And it's like I understand going from Myers to juju. I mean, Juju is a tougher player to game plan for if you're a defensive coach. I've heard that. Myers is a really good player. And I'm going to sit here and I'm going to talk really nicely about him because I believe all of this to be true. I'm with you. I think Jacoby Myers is good, man. He is, his story is really incredible.

It was impressive to watch because he came in as an undrafted guy in 2019. McKeel Harry was their first round pick. And, you know, Harry had his own. own issues, but Myers immediately beat him out as a rookie. And he continued to grow from there. And he's not going to give you breakaway speed. He might not break many tackles. But that guy can line up before the snap and know what the defense is going to give you and how to get open against those coverages. And that is so valuable for a quarterback. But I understand, like, teams weren't necessarily scared of Jacoby Myers. So those, again, these are two things that can be

true at the same time. Whereas Juju, he's not a number one, so I don't want to make it sound like teams are sitting there saying, oh my goodness, we have to game plan for this guy. But like that guy also knows how to get open. He does it in a different way. He's going to break more tackles. And he might be able to pop a couple longer plays than somebody like Jacoby Myers would, you know, without necessarily a busting coverage or something like that. So that run after the catchability is going to help somebody like Mack Jones who can deliver the ball accurately over the middle of the field. But Gassiki, I guess we'll see.

I mean, he's been up and down throughout his career. I think everybody kind of knew that as offensively gifted as McDaniel's mind is, that the tight end position just wasn't going to be that productive down there in Miami last year. So we'll see what Bill O'Brien can do for Gassiki and to use him off of Hunter Henry. I mean, I know Hunter Henry has not had the two years that everybody sort of envisioned when he signed that big deal a couple years ago, but they see. still really like what he could potentially do. So you're going to see those two guys play off

one another with juju probably in the middle of the field. But you still want to get some type of game breaker on the outside. And I know they've called about Hawkins and Judy. And understandably, the prices are high. And that's why a deal hasn't quite happened yet. But if they aren't able to get one of those guys, you got to keep trying in the draft. It just feels like they need more pop and more juice at those positions. They do. I mean, the, slotting in Juju for Jacoby Myers, you're getting a lot of the same stuff.

And I understand replacing that production within the offense and I kind of feel like that's what they did with Juju, but you really either need one more piece or a pretty huge step forward from Tyco on Thornton in year two in order to give you just that, again, pop on offense that you desperately missed last season. And I think continue to miss as currently constructed. Yeah. And I mean, Thornton had a couple really impressive moments, but I mean, I've seen this what feels like a million times watching the Patriots over the last 20-something years is that just with this offensive system under Belichick, you know, the Weiss, McDaniels, O'Brien system. If you're a rookie and you go down early, it is virtually impossible to come back and to do anything really of substance.

So that's what you saw with Thornton. He was, he had an interesting rookie year calendar. I mean, I remember I covered those, I think I covered every open practice last spring. Yeah, because of COVID restrictions. So I wasn't traveling at that point. So I just went down to Gillette and I watched these practices. Thornton didn't look like he was going to do anything. I mean, he looked completely lost.

He was just not ready. By the time I got back there in training camp, and I was only there for a day or two during training camp, but just by talking to people, by seeing him for that day or two, he looked like a completely different player. Like a completely, like this kid improved remarkably over the course of just a couple months. And then he had whatever that, might have been a collarbone, missed a couple months.

And that's just, that's hard to come back from in that offense. And that offense had a lot of its own issues. I mean, they were trying to reinvent a bunch of things all at once and it didn't work. So we'll see what O'Brien. can do. I wonder also if O'Brien can help spark Devante Parker. So, not saying that all of a sudden you're going to go into

this thing counting on Bill O'Brien to wave a magic wand and all of a sudden every receiver in tight end is going to be the best version of themselves. Best version might be strong, but better, I think, is a reasonable expectation. Absolutely, as it should be. So, yeah, I think that the third thing is a great point.

I mean, if he looks pretty decent in the preseason and then he gets hurt and it's really there's no way around. that. So I think that if you can expect just better offensive infrastructure and you look at the kind of the aggregate of the pieces, I can talk yourself into this being a lot better than last year, even if it does still feel like they need that that top end guy that they have not acquired yet. So the Hopkins market, what do you think that looks like over the next couple weeks? Teams are going to keep calling because he should be available. I would be surprised. This is not like

knowing that something's going to happen or not, but I just think that there's so much smoke in this type of situation and why it makes sense from a cap perspective, especially as they're kind of rebuilding under a new regime to move him. And so what is that going to be for? Is it going to be a second round pick, a third round pick? I mean, I think that might come down to what Arizona may or may not need to eat in that contract.

Like, I think there's probably still a lot to be determined there. Hopkins, in my opinion, is a much better player than Brandon Cooks, who required a five and a six. So, I mean, if somebody offers a three and the Cardinals don't take that, I don't know if that's on the table right now. I truly don't. But, like, I would be surprised if the Cardinals wouldn't jump at that type of price point right now. And it feels like there are some teams who could benefit from that player at that price point, even if there are risks. Even if you're concerned about his age, whatever. I would sign up for 12.

13 games of DeAndre Hopkins for a third round pick right now. Yeah, virtually every team in the league. Yeah, me too. And I think that there are, you know, there are locker room dynamic concerns with him. And I think there are a lot of things that you have to weigh if you're going to make that move, but it still feels like the upside outweighs the benefits for the majority of the teams around the league. All right, a couple other wide receiver dominoes that we're still waiting for. What are you hearing about the Broncos guys?

Judy had the Broncos have, they're not like actively shopping, Judy, but they know what they have. And this just goes back to a veteran receiver market in free agency that's just not very, it's not top heavy. So teams are trying to find creative ways to add talent. And that's why the Broncos have all the power in a situation like this. So when teams are calling, they're saying it's at least a first rounder. And I don't know if that at least is conditional upon where you are in the first round. I mean, somebody calls with number 10. and obviously they're not going to say, well, we also need a three. Not saying that's happening, but, you know, everybody's price is usually a little bit different.

So I don't know what somebody like Sutton would cost, but Judy's the big one there. And teams are interested. I just don't think that the Broncos are sitting there saying, well, we have to trade him. And if you're Sean Payton and you know how good of an offensive coach you are, you're going to think, hey, if I keep this guy, if I have the luck of this guy staying healthy, I could turn him into the star that everybody kind of thought he was going to. to be all the way going back to Alabama. Yeah, it's because they're not tearing it down. This is a team that's been pretty active in free agency, even on offense.

So even if they have maybe some excess pieces there, and it's a state of flux with the front office, just with the coaching staff, and there's a lot of moving parts there, I can understand making the call, but I don't think they're incentivized to give any of those guys away for nothing. So it's an interesting situation. Yeah. I just wonder, like, what if a team calls with a two in the top half of the, the second round and a four.

Like, is that enough to do it? Or are they truly hell bent on saying, unless you're coming with a one, don't even bother picking up the phone. I think that's mostly enough to do it just because I don't know if Jerry Judy has necessarily been a great receiver during his time in the NFL so far. No, he hasn't. Yeah.

Objectively, he is not. I think that's the more, the biggest consideration rather than, you know, what's the right price for Jerry Judy in all of this? One more wide receiver question. where do you think Stan with Odo Beckham, when do you think that this is going to get resolved? So I tried to find some answers on the tweet saying,

he had something about $4 million in hands. I mean, if that's, like, I don't know if that's the best offer that's on the table right now. Let's go back to the workout that he held for the NFL a couple Fridays ago. I was told that he's still working his way back into shape by teams that were there. But, you know, that's the drawback. The one thing is he looked, he caught the ball really well, which I just, it was an interesting observation from multiple teams. I'm just repeating things that I've heard multiple times.

He looked like he was still absolutely a starting caliber receiver, not as explosive as he used to be, which is understandable. It would be reasonable here, but still look like he could be a productive receiver. So what's that mean from the market? I mean, this is a guy who hasn't played in over a year, and you've got to wonder how long is it going to take him to kind of catch up the speed. The injuries have taken their toll over the, you know, recent years. So everything's sort of still in flux. I mean, again, I don't know what Odell wants in terms of like the contract, what he thinks he's worth, what he can get. And then, you know, what are teams trying to give to get him in, I mean, Dallas was interested.

And they apparently decided to pivot to Brandon. cooks. So there are, you know, teams are interested, but I don't know if there doesn't look like they're coming with the money that he thought that he might have been able to get. Just based off of that tweet. And again, trying to get more answers, but I don't know for sure exactly what the best offer is right now. Yeah, I think that we'll know a lot about what the leak thinks of him when those offers start to become public and when we start to learn more about them, when we eventually see what the final offer looks like. Because right now, I think the fact that he's not signed. Fair or unfair is an indication that teams aren't willing to over-extend themselves

to make this happen. Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you said, because I'm a big subscriber to that belief, too. We will find out what the league thinks of, whether it's this player, this team, this situation, what have you, because when the entire league has a chance to come together and speak on a topic like this, you know, a high profile free agent in terms of what the contract is going to look like, you know, they're the ones who are the experts in this thing. and we can just kind of watch what what they believe is fair market value for. One more big name veteran that could be on the move. Where are things at with the Chargers and Austin Echler at this stage?

I haven't gotten any great updates on this one. I thought that was a pretty surprising development early last week where they were trying to figure out a new deal, which understandable, I think he's on the books for like six and a quarter million or something like that. And you look at the running back market right now going into this offseason, exclude, I guess, the franchise guys, Barclay and Jacobs and Pollard. You've got the top eight running backs in the league in terms of salary, average annual value. They're at $12 to $16 million a year. Beyond that, the ninth paid guy, or I guess it's a tie, three-way tie at the franchise number at 10 in change. and then below that, nobody makes more than eight.

So the running back market is really interesting just from a financial perspective, because there's the top eight, there's the franchise guys, and then there's a huge clouded middle class or crowded middle class. And Echler wants to get paid like one of those top eight guys, as he rightfully deserves to want that. But when you're, you know, the league has restricted what it is willing to pay. for running backs. So when you've got somebody who you need to give up the draft capital,

assuming that's what it's going to take to trade for him, and you want to give him a pretty significant raise, I think maybe that's why you're seeing a deal has not been culminated at this point. And then again, you go into, based off what Dan Brugler is saying, this is a loaded running back draft class. So you've got to take that new account as well. Let's think about it from three different perspectives. One, Austin Eckler's perspective.

I can understand being pretty. no wait if I'm Austin Echler. You signed a probably less than market deal compared to the your peers at your position in 2020 when you signed that four year extension. It was an average of six million as some of these other guys who were signed just after that like the guys you mentioned, McCaffrey, all the guys at the top, are twice that. And your production over the life of that contract was right in line with all of the best backs in the league. So I understand being a little bit annoyed about how the last four years played out and being a little bit annoyed that you're on the last year of your deal and you feel like you deserve to be rewarded again. You have been the centerpiece of that offense, the most consistent player on that offense outside of Justin Herbert over the last couple of years.

So I think he's justified in being a little bit pissed off. From the Chargers perspective, he's going to be 29 and 2024. I don't think you want to give out a big market extension to a running back that is going to take him into probably his age 30, 31, 32 seasons. And like you just said, from an outside team's perspective, do we really want to give up draft capital and give that contract the chargers don't want to give to a running back that's going to be 30 over the life of this deal when we can replace him with cheaper alternatives in the draft? So those feel like the three perspectives. And I think everyone is justified in having that perspective, but those combined can lead to sort of an impasse here. Yeah. It's, I mean, if you're the Chargers and you can trade Echler for, I don't know, I mean, a third round pick, I guess.

Like is that, when does that happen, though? Can you remember the last time a running back was traded for that sort of draft capital? Well, McCaffrey. Yeah, that's true. That's unique. That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right, though.

You're right, though. That's a good point. So let's say if you're the Chargers and you can trade him, you get a third round pick. And now all of a sudden, you've got the space. and you can supplement that by getting Damien Harris or one of these guys who's still out there. And then you can use that pick on a running back. And now all of a sudden you're younger. You have a little more long-term security because you've got a free agent who,

you know, sign let's call it a two or a three-year deal. And you can kind of move on in that sort of capacity. So it's an interesting way to look at it. But like you were saying, like Echler's age is, that's an important. important factor when you're trying to lock up a running back. And it's just it's it's a tough spot for a guy like Echler to be in. And you know what? You can say no, I'm not trying to change the subject too much, but like you look at like

the value, what does everybody think? Like it's it's a similar situation happening with somebody like Lamar Jackson right now too, where you've got Lamar saying, well, I deserve every bit of what Deshaun Watson's making. You've got the Ravens saying that's that. contract is unique. It's a unicorn. It's not happening again. And then you've got the rest of the league saying, well, yeah, you're a tremendous player, but do I want to give up two first round picks and that guaranteed contract? And all three parties collectively are right to believe all of

those things. Did I go too far off topic there? No, not at all. I was trying to figure out how I'm going to frame this Lamar question. What do you think happens? Like, how do you think this ultimately gets resolved. I have, I'll pat myself on the back because I'm batting about, you know, 050 on predictions like this. But this one I think I nailed. For the last two years, I've been saying it's going to, it's coming to this, where he's going to be on the franchise tag and the Ravens are going to say,

hey, you know what? Let the market dictate your value. Like, yeah, I know it's going to be tough for a team to give up two firsts, but look at what the Browns gave up for Deshawn Watson. look at what the Broncos gave up for Russell Wilson. A team can absolutely sell it to their fan base, two first round picks and this contract for Lamar Jackson, if they want to.

So far, we're not hearing anything. I don't know if there are any discussions at all. I think at this point, the Ravens have played this thing perfectly. I also understand why Lamar Jackson wants the type of money that he's asking for. And I just think right now it looks like he's going to play out the tag this year. Yeah, it does feel like we're getting closer and closer to that point.

I always thought that the most realistic outcome was that he would just play for the Ravens this season in some capacity. Even with all the talk about how ugly things were getting there and what the teams could give up for him on the non-exclusive tag. It just very rarely do we see outwire outcomes like this when it comes to quarterbacks. The simplest answer is typically the one that plays out. And that's the team retaining the very, very good quarterback because they don't have alternatives. and it still feels like this is going to be a version of that. Yeah, and I think it becomes much more of a difficult situation next year when he would have to play at what, 120% of 32 million,

so somewhere closer to 40. But that's not that much, right? I mean, it's terrible. It's hard to take on that type of immediate cap hit. Correct. It's hard to build the rest of your team when you have $40 million headed to your quarterback because that doesn't happen very often, right? Right. So, and if it does, like a, like a Deshawn Watson type of situation where you knew that cap hit was coming, you know, you had at least a year to prepare for it. Now, I'm not saying the Ravens haven't done that. Like they have to prepare for every possibility here. But, you know, it's tough. Like you're the Ravens. You're going to sit there and say, well, hey, you know what? This sucks to hear, but you didn't finish the last two seasons because of injuries. And if you want X percentage of your contract,

guaranteed, you know, the Ravens have every right to say that Deshawn Watson contract, again, like I keep saying this phrase, it's a unicorn. Like, it's just, it's not, it's totally unique. It's not going to happen again. But, you know, if you're Lamar, you sit there and say, well, I've been a more productive player. I'm a former MVP. Lamar Jackson's a model citizen. So it's just everybody is sitting there and they've all got various leverage points. but they've been negotiating this deal for two years and it hasn't happened. So that's why I think that the tag is the most likely,

or playing out the tag is the most likely option for 23. I was curious if any other quarterbacks in the league have like a $40 million cap at this year, or if everyone had restructured to kind of get that a little bit lower. You mentioned the Deshaun Watson one. They did restructure that. I mean, his is much, much lower than it was about 19 million. Mahomes, though, they restructured a chunk of his roster bonus,

but not all of it. So Patrick Mahomes will have almost, exactly a $40 million cap hit this year in 2020. So if you want kind of a data point on what it's like to build a roster around a $40 million cap it and anyone others curious, you can go look at what the chiefs are right now because very rarely do we see the cap hits get that high. Typically, they are a little bit lower with some of these guys on larger extensions. Most of the time, the quarterbacks are the biggest cap hits in the league are guys you

don't want to restructure. So they're the kind of mid-tier veteran quarterback contracts. Kirk Cousins, Ryan Tannahill, Jared Gough. Those guys are often near the top of that list because you don't want to push the money into future years. So we don't often have a lot of examples of teams having to construct that roster around $140 million cap hit for a quarterback. But the chiefs are one of those instances this year. I did a story about a year ago. And so the data is a little old or not as fresh.

but I looked at every Super Bowl winning quarterback since the new CBA in 2011. So you're counting for the rookie salary scale. And with the exception of, I guess you could combine the Eagles situation with Foles and Wents in 17. But basically, with the exception of that and Russell Wilson winning on his rookie contract, every Super Bowl winning contract quarterback had taken up between 11 and 13, percent of their team salary cap that year. And then going into last off season, some of these deals got restructured.

Like I can think right outside my head, Matt Ryan was one of them and they traded him. So like not every single one of these things held true. But at the time I wrote it, you had, I think it was nine quarterbacks going into 2022 with a cap hit in excess of 15% of their team salary cap. And that was an unprecedented number at that time. So it's the league has gotten into a very interesting area.

And actually I wish I looked up what Mahomes percentage was last year. It was very, very high. Okay. Yeah. So you had, you're getting into a situation where you've got these extremely talented young quarterbacks, Mahomes, Borough, Allen, Herbert, so on and so forth, guys who, if they've all, if they haven't already reset the market like a Mahomes or an Alms. Allen, if they're at the process of doing it in the very short order with Borough and Herbert and Jalen Hertz,

you know, you're getting into a situation now where teams have to pay these guys because they've so much more leverage than they've ever had before. But now, how can you consistently win with that type of cap percentage? Like you were saying, like the Chiefs just did with Mahomes. So it's just, it's a really fascinating time from a quarterback financial structure perspective. And part of that 10 to 13 percentage is a little bit swayed by the fact that Tom Brady is like half of those Super Bowls and what he was making there. But Mahomes was at 17.16% last year, $36 million against the cap. Okay. Which is that we don't see that.

That that is like a, that's a new one. That's a new type of quarterback contract to win a Super Bowl. Four plus percent higher than any quarterback under these CBA terms, which is really, really interesting. But when you've got Patrick Mahomes, you pay. and you just rolled the dice every single year. He might be the exception of all this. This year it's slated to be 18%. So we'll see how that goes.

Jeff Howe, thank you very much for the time and the insight, sir. It is always great to chat with you. What are you working on right now? What should people be on the lookout for? I'm still in the daily transaction stuff. So I think we're all just waiting and trying to figure out what's going to happen with Aaron Rogers and maybe Austin Neckler and certainly Odell and all that stuff. then we're kind of gearing up for the league meetings next week in Arizona.

So I don't have any projects in the short term. I do have some stuff for the long term, but I won't tip my cap there. I can't let the competition get on my trail. Well, you guys be on the lookout for all of that daily transaction stuff. If you want to read Jeff's work, you can do that at theathletic.com slash football show is where you can find a subscription. I highly encourage you guys to do that.

If you have not, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. if you want to go on Apple Podcasts and let us know why you like the show. I would very much appreciate that. We will be back a little bit later this week. I think Nate and I are going to do some free agent roundup stuff coming your way on Wednesday. So please be on look out for that. Prospects to Pros is back this week along with the football GM on Thursday. Very excited about kind of the petering out of free agency and the start of draft season here on the athletic football show.

So be ready for that for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys, listen. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.