The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Browns clinch playoff berth with win over Jets on TNF

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

Our Thursday night series in 2023 started with the Lions upsetting the Chiefs in what proved to be a sign of things to come. It ended with the Browns clinching a playoff berth with a win over the Jets. Robert Mays and Nate Tice break down the latter on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. It's the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me tonight. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing well. That was a game.

That was a game. But congrats? You stole my joke. I was going to say, I was going to say, of all the games that have happened this year, that was one of them. That certainly was one of them. That was a capper.

That felt like the capper. We started the first live stream of the season was Lions and Chiefs and a bit of a barn burner. This little bit of different. Yeah, a little bit of difference here. But we did see a playoff team tonight. We did see a playoff team. That was the Cleveland Browns led by finishing with some flacco chance.

Wow. That's 2023. Start with the Lions win at Arrowhead. And here we are in the last Thursday stream of the season, get with some flacco chance to finish the finish off the center until we we descent to this nightcap. The Browns had four starting quarterbacks this year. They clinched a playoff spot week 17.

That is the story of the Cleveland Brown season. They deserve a lot of credit for how they've handled this season, how they approach the offseason. We'll dig into some of it. But I think Kevin Sofansky deserves to be in the conversation for Coach of the Year. We'll have that discussion over the next couple weeks. One of the reasons I think he definitely deserves it is I was thinking about this during the game. These teams are the same.

If you look at the broad strokes of where these teams are, they're pretty much the same. They came into the season, high-priced quarterbacks that they paid a lot to go get. That quarterback got hurt at some point during the year. The Jets decided that their approach to this was going to be, our quarterback got hurt. You know, what are we supposed to do? Our quarterback got hurt. I think privately, that's how they were handling a lot of this.

This was going to be a due over year because Aaron Rogers got hurt. There was none of that going on in Cleveland. They were trying to be proactive. There was nothing woe as me about this. and you could see it. These teams carried by their elite defenses, one, managed to find answers on offense because they have an offensive-minded head coach and a good offensive staff, and two, because they kept chipping away at options of quarterback,

another team never found those answers. The Browns are going to the playoffs, the Jets are going to be watching from home. I know that there are nuances within that, but if you look at the broad strokes, that's what this game felt like, and that's what the season has felt like from both of these teams. And even just the past catchers they added, like just this off-season, You know, the Browns, Elijah Moore got hurt tonight, but they're trying to boost the core of pass catchers and pass-Russack. Yeah, the Jets got rid of Elijah Moore and the Browns traded for Elijah Moore. Yeah, right there.

That's the difference. They decided, hey, we're going to boot Elijah Moore and like, see, we're giving up on him. Okay, let's bring on Alan Lazard and Randall Cop. It will be good there. And, oh, no, it's not draft Cedric Tillman in the third round. No, we're good. We got our pass catchers. We're all set there.

And that's what it just always felt like. As soon as Rogers got hurt, they were just like, oh, shoot, that wasn't supposed to. happen. So now what? And what were we supposed to do? Our starting quarterback got hurt. And then you could also take it one step further. Our offensive line is a mess. Okay. Right. The brows are on offensive tackles four and five and they're shredding you throughout the first half of this game with Joe Flacco, who was on your roster, who you could have called the moment that Aaron Rogers got hurt, you decided not to. Now you're watching from home. Now they're playing in the playoffs. Or even just teams like the Vikings, like, you know, doing what they do with Dobbs for a bit.

once and just trying. They're just trying, like trying to scrap together wins and trying to have inspired game plans and everything. And that's what, I mean, commendable to Bruce Hall, he and the defense, they've just been playing hard. And it felt like tonight, it felt like the Jets defense finally had enough. Like, that's what really just had vibes. But they played hard in the second half. They had enough stop in the bleeding in the second half. And there were a couple wonky plays, you know, some extended plays from Joe Flacco. It was a weird half. I think the Jets defense deserves a lot of credit for how hard they played. This entire season they do. I feel like we've we've tried to repeat it because they could easily have thrown out of the towel weeks ago when they made what five quarterback switches.

It felt like just between, I mean, just revolving who it is. It's like, okay, it's a day that, okay, this was, or it's a half moon. Okay, so that's a Zach Wilson start, right? That's what we're, okay, it's a full moon. Okay, that's Simian. Okay, okay. I feel like that's where they're going. They're going off a lunar chart of when to start these guys.

But no matter what's happened is the defense is just, I mean, just try. to do something, try to make plays. I've watched a few of these performances, where they did against the dolphins, where they did against the Falcons recently, and they just made these games a slog. And it was like, hey, if they did with the, that's, weren't the Browns doing that in the middle of the year? Remember those games? Gum and Toothick offense?

And hey, we got to commend Bill Callahan and Kevin Safansky. They're trying. And then Flacco's getting hot again. And it's just, they deserve this because they tried. And they deserve to win double digit games because they're actually earning these wins. a dominant all-time unit that, you know, sometimes doesn't feel like it, but it really is. Statistically, it is. This Browns defense.

And they've been banged up. Those guys been on the lineup for them all year. Denzel wards missed a couple games. One Thornhill missed a couple games. Yeah. They're getting production from undrafted free agents that are having pick sixes in this game that had to step up because Thorntwell Hill was hurt for a chunk. So I think that they've done a really good job of piecing this thing together.

My question for you is the Joe Flacko element of all of this? Is this merely we're having a good time? watching him trot back there and chuck the ball downfield? Or do they actually have a shot at surprising some people in the playoffs because of the element that he gives them a quarterback? I think they definitely have a chance to surprise somebody. Right now, they play the Jax in the first round. I feel better about the Browns than the Jax.

Okay. Beyond the Jaguars, this is similar to whoever plays the NFC South winner and the NFC is probably going to be okay. Beyond beating the Jags, is there anyone else that you think that they can scare if they were to get into the divisional route. The kind of top three, the chiefs, dolphins, and Ravens, I would not feel as good about. But, you know, their defense is going to keep them in games. What is the ultimate neutralizer?

A very good defenseal line. And even with Okarokwo being hurt, they have so much juice up there on top of a defensive player of the year candidate, Miles Garrett. I think that defense keeps them in games no matter what. And I just think the offensive players have been sound every game. I mean, yeah, they had the tip pick six. Flacco was going to throw a couple, have a couple turnovers. But because he pushes the ball,

Look at that first throw in Joko on the first drive on the overroute when he's moving to the left. That high variance is going to give him a chance. That's what you need. I'm fine living that way. And that's how it felt from the beginning. From the moment he got put into the lineup, it felt like the high variance and the volatility was worth it with their defense. If you have a backup that or just some scroungy quarterback that you're just trying to slap together, that's what you need. You can't nickel and dime, especially in the playoffs.

It's trying to create, hey, we hit three explosive plays for touchdowns. We got one pick six. and now we got 28 points right there. One sack fumble. Boom. And you're in the game. That's what the playoffs are. And again, the good teams, of course, its ability to pivot.

But where the Browns are at right now, this is how they have to win in the playoffs. And I actually think they can do it because they have the mortar launcher back there. That's always giving them a shot. Dude, it's, oh my God, the bootlegs are cracking me up. It's really funny. Usually you only bootleg to the left when you have a good athlete. Like at Wisconsin, there's only, we had chili was our naked protection, going working to the right but that was only in for all of us and then russ went also in a

rust transfer there's also in bernie protection came in which is boot to the left because you know not a lot of guys not i was a very athletic to really boot to the left when i also have someone in my face flack was just cranking it back there oh just oozing back there and just turn it and just launching throws and i'm loving it because it's just working week after week he's hit this like four street weeks he set these kind of shots on teams it's awesome this is really because if you want to take it all the way full circle, Gary Kubiak was in Baltimore. Remember those Gary Kubiak offenses for the Ravens? He was there for one year.

He was the officer coordinator before he went to Denver. Okay. And so Gary Kubiak was in Minnesota. And when Kevin Stefanski decided that he was going to, when Kevin Staphanzzi got his opportunities as an offensive coordinator, even though he didn't really know Gary Kubiak, this is before Kubiak got there. He had always said, I love that style of offense. That's what I want my offense to be.

So they had this keeper-based play. action offense and now Joe Flacco gets back dropped back into this offense that he's really comfortable with. It's a grind a bike. That has flashes of what Kevin Stefansky has always wanted to be. So that connection is actually pretty funny. There's a similar bit of that on the other side of the ball in this game. So I tweeted this out during the game.

The Jets have had trouble with the Browns over the last two years. They did fine in the second half because the Browns really had no one to throw to outside of David and Joe Gould's game. But they've had trouble against the Browns over the last two years. The Jets against every other team in the league, are either first or second in EPA per play on defense. It's one of the two. It's second at the very least. Against the Browns, of the 22 teams that have played against the Browns, they are 21st in EPA per play on defense. The only team that is worse is the Chargers. Okay.

And talking to people this summer with the Jets, they do not like playing against Defansky. There is just something about the way that offense is structured that they hate going against. I love that stuff. The irony of that is that. that the reason Kevin Stefansky hired Joe Woods to be his defensive coordinator when he came to Cleveland is because of what Robert Solid did to him when they played against the Niners in the 2019 playoffs. Funny. Funny. And it's just like, hey, screw that. Yeah. Well, that was when Dan Quinn hired Kyle Shanion. That's what he said. I was tired of going against that offense. So why not hired the guy that made it such a pain of the ass? It worked out for him. It makes sense, though,

because the one Bill Calhans run game right now, especially they like to do a lot of the pit bull stuff and get their offense line on the outside. They're one of the teams that run it the most, if not the most. That can give issues to the Jets defense because of the fronts and stuff they run. So it's something naturally that can get. Okay, so that's our fastball is one thing you struggle with. Okay, that's already boom right there. Yeah.

And probably some of the play action stuff like you've talked about. And I'm sure that's just. It's a lot of the pre the pre-snap shifting, what they do at the tight end. It's just like little tiny little tiny buttons that they press. And Kevin Sifansky deserves a lot of credit for understanding, okay, our defense just lacked something over the last couple of years. We needed to do something to give this thing a jolt. Bring it back to the Joe Woods part of this. Going out and getting Jim Schwartz, I think, was as much about changing the mentality of that unit as it was anything else.

One of the reasons that they went with Schwartz over some of the other guys that potentially they could have hired is they wanted to keep the defense structurally similar to what they were doing with Joe Woods. let Miles Garrett play in a four down front, keep him comfortable. But it was really about changing the mentality because what that, if you look at like the DNA of this sort of defense, that wide nine attacking defensive system that the Niners run, that Chris Kassurik runs, that comes from Jim Schwartz. Like there is shared DNA there. Jim Washburn in Detroit, who Chris Kucerick learned from was a Jim Schwartz disciple. So there are a lot of kind of intertwined pieces here.

but the attitude and the way they wanted this team to play, I think that is the biggest boost that they've gotten from hiring Jim Schwartz and letting him over to see that side of the ball. And again, one more point in the Kevin Stefanski for the coach of the year argument because he went out and understood that they needed that sort of element on defense. It makes sense too because it's also the Stefanski being a true boot guy. The Y-9 stuff was vetted based, not vetted, but leaned into to stop all that. So again, it's the classic, like, I'm tired of facing this.

I'm going to get the guy that, like, gave me such a chore, made such a chore in the past. No, it all ties together. I mean, those lines, defense lines, man, around like, you know, 2011-ish with Sue and all those. Sue, Nick Fairley, Kyle Vandenbosch. Those teams were-cliffe Averill. Oh, my God. Because my dad was a lion coach, especially, too. I remember they had to play, I want to say it was 2011 at Detroit.

It was like the first night game of Detroit or national TV game of Detroit in years. And, oh, my God. That was one of the biggest. Yep. That was one of the biggest Hornets Ness, like Lions Den games ever. Like the Bears had no shot. Like just how raucous forward field was right away. It's one of those games.

I was like, I'm watching on TV. I remember I was in Madison. I was like, nah, they're not getting this one. Sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry, Dad. But really, it's just really funny to watch those lines because I remember the Lions coaching staff, coach the Senior Bowl.

And that was my first experience with Chris Kassarik. Backwards hat, glasses on, I believe. Never stops yelling. and just goes, goes, and my dad gave him my kind of little tab and goes, hey, good job out there. He's like, hey, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, but he's just like, that was my first experience was the Senior Bowl when he was with the line. So it's so funny you're bringing this all up. And he would have been the Assistant Defensive Line Coach, right? Because Jim Washburn was there. And I think they bumped at the Senior Bowl I went to, I think they just bumped him up to DUI coach.

Like so I think he had just got it like literally like that month like because it was the Senior Bowls in January, you know. So I think it was like 2012, it's 2013-ish. But yeah, no, it's just funny. And that was my, and now some of the years later, I put it together. I was like, oh, that was because Sarah? Like, it makes a ton of sense. Like, I was awesome. The defense is what was holding the Browns back over the last couple years. Them not getting enough out of that unit and the talent that they had on that unit. I know they added some pieces this off season to Zedarius Smith, Davin Tomlinson, et cetera. But the way that the secondary is playing, those guys were all there as outside of one Thornhill. And the energy is just different. And that's another thought

that I was having while watching this game. I kind of just wish they had never traded for Deshawn Watson on multiple different levels. From a likability perspective, from a resources perspective, what if the Browns just had Jacoby percent this year? That's it. And you could watch them play with Jacoby percent. They'd probably be just as good or better on offense. Every single great vibe you get from watching the defense, the defense would be the same.

The most likable dude in the league, Jacob percent. I know. Most likable dude in the league, Jacoby percent back there. playing a top 10 offense last year. This is the most frustrating thing. I just, like, have still pulled my hair out about it. No,

I agree. That's why I was so giddy being able to talk about this team without having that feeling over it and just getting to watch Flacco and enjoy it. It is nice. It is nice being able to watch them play without having to watch him in the game. I'll be honest. And yeah, so,

and I think he's played better. That was much. The offense has been better. It's way better. It's way better. It's way better. It's way. I'll say it again.

Watson's numbers were the same as Ritters. I mean, every single. So take that as how you will. But I will, It's a great point that you bring about the defense and that their energy, it's just starting week one against that banged up Bengals team was just palpable. I was like, holy shit. I knew I was optimistic about this Brown's defense, but it was like, oh my God, this is going to be a thing.

And it felt like it, especially, I mean, just look at the numbers again. But Martin Emerson, his growth from year one to year two has been great. I just watched him take it to the T. Higgins's of the world and actually these real deal receivers and actually like take it to with an attitude. And like you said, it's just, it's palpable. Watch every blitz with JOK or whoever else they have in there with their linebackers. Those guys hit the gap so hard. They're like taking turns. They're trying to show off.

It's like, watch when we watch like a really good AAU basketball team, they're like upping. They're thrown to oops in pregame and then you're on the other side going, oh, no. But it's like that's what watching the Browns team. That's what that Tennessee game felt like. Where they had that stretch where after every single play, you just saw those celebrations. and just a strange place for this team to be because there's so many elements of it that should be feel good, is them getting to the playoffs of this unit being banged up, fighting through everything they have so far, and you could look at this and say, okay, well, when their starting quarterback gets back next year,

what could they be? And with this team, I don't care to do that. And I don't even think it's that exciting to imagine that. No. Because if you look at it, there would be other situations like this where you think, okay, the starting quarterback got hurt or it didn't work out. They just move on from him after the year. You pivot, you go find another option.

What could this team be with just average quarterback play? That's not going to happen. He's going to be back. They can't move on from him at any point over the next like three years. So this is what this thing is going to be. And there's just something about that that I find disappointing. I just wish that was not the case on multiple different levels. So that's what the Brown's future looks like.

The defense is still probably going to be pretty good. But we're going to have those questions about what the quarterback is and about what he prevents them from doing resource-wise. It means just outside the Watson stuff. What they did, the reflection that they shown with their defense this past year is like just maybe really kind of go like, oh, okay, this Browns regime is okay. Okay. You guys are kind of, it's clicking. Like, I don't know.

It just made me more optimistic about the stuff that they kind of lean into. I just want to kind of say that, though. Like, I felt like the self-reflection they've made was pretty good. I spent all the defense, all this stuff we talked about. You know, I mean. And that's the frustrating part about this is that the job that Andrew Barry and Stefansky have done at 52 other. spots on the roster is probably the best job you could have done. It's, it's, and it's just like, you want to get giddy about it. And it's that,

that just overhangs. And that's the thing. I just want to enjoy this iteration of the Browns because it's just like, again, it's not going to last. It's going to change right now. And I hesitate to even bring it up. But that again, it becomes one of those thoughts that's hard to ignore when you're watching this team and you're watching it's a real thing. It's a real thing. It is absolutely a real thing that affects the way that I think we talk about and think about this team. So that's what their future looks like. Yeah. The Jets future we're going to see running back

we're going to see because everything that they have tried to sell and everything they want you to believe about the way that this season has gone is it okay we're going to drop Aaron Rogers back into this thing

and it's going to be all systems go okay where are the past catchers where's the offensive line you only have so many resources this off season with a 40 year old quarterback to improve those areas how many guys on the long

along the current offensive line are you bringing back next year? Oh, center. And what else? And Tomlinson, maybe because you paid him. Tomlinson, pay, yeah, is he still under a deal? Yeah. Like, yeah, that's it.

Tipman. I'm just trying to even think who else where they got. Because Beckton fell off. He had a flashing for a month. I mean, I'm just trying to even think. I think they have another rookie in there. Probably do. But, I mean, just even think the whole offense.

Garrett Wilson, of course, is a nice piece. Bruce Hall, great piece. But like you just said, I had them in our mock taking J.C. Latham from. Alabama who's a nice right tackle. Okay, that's one lineman. I think they need three. And on top of it, probably one more pass catcher. I like, I like Jeremy Rucker, Young Tide End. They have, you know, Conklin's done some nice things for them, but it's like, I don't know, that's four pieces already. They're not going to have a second round pick. That goes to the Packers.

You know, and they've already paid Lazard. It's just a, yeah, it's going to be interesting how they can navigate this, especially what they know that they've committed to. You're going to have to be pretty aggressive because the window is not very long, even if you believe him in that he's going to play beyond next year, I think that there are still warrants a decent amount of urgency in terms of what you're going to do. You can rebuild an offensive line in a year. It's not easy, though. It's definitely not easy. And the other big discrepancy when you watch these teams and you think about these teams is the infrastructure and the ecosystem that they have built on offense independent of the players. The Browns have been able to thrive,

succeed, survive this year because they have Kevin Stefansky and Bill Calhant. Right. Right. They just don't have that. You have. Aaron Rogers. So next year, Aaron Rogers has to be your quarterback. He has to be your offensive coordinator. And he has to be someone who makes your offensive line better. And that's a lot of bets that you're making on a guy who's going to be 40 coming off in Achilles. I was wondering when I would ever talk about this. But the fact he has a headset and not in the earpiece is always gets me because there's a limited, there's a finite amount of headsets that you can have on game day. So like with it with a mouthpiece that you can talk. And every time to show him, that thing's

up and he's shaking his head, shaking his head. Never once talking. And Ivan kills me because that meant a coach had to give that up. That meant someone on the sideline had to give up their headset for him. And I've had that, just the inner dynamics of that is just cracks me up because every other quarterback that's in there, they just have the little earpiece without the ear, the megaphone on there. Because usually you just go right next to it. And I was just like, just one more thing that you're making a bigger deal than it needs to be with Aaron Rogers, Nate. Just one more thing. You just have it out for Aaron Rogers. That's me, right? Do you see Nick Wright's rant? I did see Nick Wright.

That's pretty good one. That's what we're talking about. It's what's talking about. It's what's hanging over with this team. They gave them the keys. They enabled them to do this. This is what they, this is the bed they made. They said, hey, we're betting on you.

Take us to the championship. And in the NFL, I get it. There's different bets you can make. That was the bet. This is the one that they made. And this is what they, the repercussions of that they have it. It can be good. But, you know, there are repercussions.

And again, do you contrast that with what the Browns are right now with what the Vikings have been for stretches this year where the bet that you're making is not on a single quarterback. It's on everything else. It's about the infrastructure of the organization. And I think that it's easier to feel better about those teams and what they have done post quarterback injury than it is about what the Jets have done. And honestly, where they're going.

Because you can absolutely try to tell yourself a story and talk yourself into everything being fixed when he comes back next year. But it just feels like there's more going on than that. It just feels like there's more that needs to be fixed and there's more that needs to be addressed. I hope they understand that. I hope that they get that it's not just about the Aaron Rogers thing and the Aaron Rogers Park him back.

And I think the reflection is a really good way to frame it because I think that there's a level of self-awareness and a level of honesty and humility that comes with this. And I think everything that they did at the quarterback position aside, the Browns have had that as it relates to their roster over the last 12 months. And that involves this season with all the injuries and it involves this offseason when they were thinking about what they needed to do to write the ship. And I don't think the Jets have brought the same sort of scope or mindset to the way that they've approached their team and their roster over the same time period.

Yep. I think the humility stuff is a huge thing. That's why it's sometimes that turns into creativity and sometimes just throw resources at it. But at least understanding that you have to do that, that it works. Like you have to do it. And that's what team building is. It's not just the quarterback. It's the team.

And you have to have the defense and you're making it dependent on that. But also just this game. game, it felt very fitting that a Jets Browns game, but we fit wrap it up this way, but also you have two pick sixes, a block punt, a failed punt in the sense that it was a surrender index account breaker, a 99.9.9er on the end of the percentile rankings about surrender index tonight. So it was a, it was very fitting that we had that kind of sloppy first half. It felt nice, always for Jets Browns. It felt nice that that's how we cap off a Thursday game. Derek Lawson said during the game that he didn't feel like this game was canon, which

I thought was a very good joke. I was trying to come up with a good non-sequential set of movie sequels. Like, which one just ignores the activities of the previous ones? I think Rocky Balboa is like that because in Rocky 5 wasn't he never able to get hit in the head again because he had some mental, like brain injury? Yeah, and it was something with his son, like he was training his son or something like that. Or no, like he had some like prodigy, you know, protege like that he was working on. Like it was Tommy Gunn was in Rocky 5.

Come, yes. I don't think we acknowledge that any of that stuff happened when we get to Rocky Bell Bow. So that's one option. There's the Star Wars. The Halloween movies. There's a Star Wars Christmas movie or Christmas special, which is not a candid. But, oh, no, the Halloween movies, that's a great one because there's Halloween, which is the sequel to Halloween. But you have to ignore the other movies that were called Halloween.

There were like seven of them that happened in the meantime. So that was the joke I made. This game was just Halloween H-2-0 or Halloween 5 or whatever you want to say. watched each show. We did. We actually ended up watching it. I ended up watching it. It's a, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's very much, that's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a lineer.

It's a movie of its time. The haircuts will tell you all you need to know about that. That's what makes it a movie of its time. All right. That is all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys joining us for all these Thursday nights, silly games that we've had this year. We enjoy doing these shows and, uh, we only do it because you guys come and hang out with us. So sincerely appreciate that.

This will be available as a podcast where that's a special holiday gift that we've given you guys over the last couple of weeks. So if you want to re-listen to this or let someone know that it's available not on YouTube, you can also do that. We will be back on Monday for our week 17 recap, not on Sunday night. Sunday night is New Year's Eve. So be looking for this on Monday midday is when our week 17 recap will be available similar to the timing this week with Christmas. Apologies for that. just, you know, this is what happens around the holidays. We appreciate you guys understanding.

Our week 17 preview is available wherever you get your podcast. A couple really good games. We've got Dolphins, Ravens, got Lions, Cowboys, and we talked about four more games that have pretty significant playoff implications this week. So make sure to check that out. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

This was The Athletic Football Show.