The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Building the Beast: All-Rookie Team for the first half of the NFL season

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

We're just about halfway through the NFL season, which means that we know a thing or two—maybe not more, but definitely a thing or two—about this year's rookie class. With that in mind, Dave Helman welcomes Trevor Sikkema from Pro Football Focus to this episode of The Athletic Football Show's Building the Beast to name this season's first half All-Rookie Team.Rundown (timestamps are approximate)4:47 Quarterback10:10 Running Back17:20 Wide Receiver23:50 Tight End27:00 Flex skill player35:16 Offensive Tackles40:06 Interior OL46:34 Edge Rusher53:33 Interior DL59:24 Linebackers1:00:49 Defensive Backs (nickel personnel)Connect with The Athletic Football ShowX: https://x.com/TA_FootballShowIG: https://www.instagram.com/tafootballshowYT: https://www.youtube.com/@TAFootballShowTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tafootballshowDiscord: http://discord.gg/theathleticfootballshowCall us: 847-448-0701Email us: [e-mail]: Dave HelmanCo-Host: Dane BruglerWith: Trevor SikkemaExecutive Producer: Michael BellerVideo Producer: Katy DuffyAudio Producer: Michael BellerSocial Producer: Scott KrinchFollow Dave on Bluesky: @davehelman.bsky.socialFollow Trevor on Bluesky: @tampabaytre.bsky.socialFollow Dave on X: @davehelman_Follow Dane on X: @dpbruglerFollow Trevor on X: @TampaBayTreTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to another episode of Building the Beast. I am your host, Dave Hellman. I'm going to take a little bit of a detour from the usual format. Typically, myself and Dane Bruegler walk you through the 2025, identifying prospects, looking at trends for the 2026 NFL draft class. We are taking a brief pause. Dane had some other work obligations this week. So we called in a substitute.

And who better than our guy, Trevor Sykima, lead draft analyst for pro full football focus. Absolutely phenomenal guy to talk about draft, to talk about football. And we decided to switch things up. We're nearing the midpoint of the NFL season here at the end of October. We wanted to look at who is excelling in this current rookie draft class, the guys who just got drafted in the spring. We don't want to completely ignore them, even if we are looking forward to 2026. So Trevor agreed to sit down with me. And we put together our midpoint all rookie teams, the most important. impressive guys on both sides of the ball through roughly half of this 2025 season. Really great conversation with Trev about some of the most exciting young players in the league.

Let's get to it. And joining me now, I feel like this is a very boilerplate introduction in the podcast world, Trevor, to say you're the busiest man in NFL media. But I know firsthand because you have worked closely with my. fiance, like I have seen into your world. And I really do think you are the busiest guy doing this, man. So thank you for carving out the time for us. Dude, I appreciate it. Carmen's schedule sometimes rivals mine. So I would say that maybe within your own Rolodex of people that you know I might not be the most busy person. But busy is good, man. It means that I get to hop on shows with

people like you with topics like this. And that's what makes a lot of fun. So I appreciate you have me. And I'm looking forward to this one. This could be a good combo, man. Well, fortunately, I like to think that we're not asking you to step too far outside of your comfort zone, right? Because as a draft analyst, this is right in your alley of looking at what this rookie class is doing. Yeah. So hopefully this wasn't too heavy of a list for you. But I am excited we don't know each other's midseason all rookie team. We flew into this thing blind.

And I would guess there's going to be plenty of overlap. There's some incredibly obvious ones. but I think there should be some potential for excitement. Particularly, I don't know about you, man, but when I got to the defensive side of the ball, I was like, ah, shit. There's a lot. There's one position in particular.

I'll just say like linebacker kind of straightforward. But basically other than linebacker, its beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You know, we'll go get a certain notable giant's pass rusher in here, I would imagine. but outside of that, it really is. It's totally up for grabs, a lot of the guys that we're going to talk about. And yeah, I was going back and forth with your producer.

And I was like, hey, do you guys want me to send you over the list beforehand? And he's like, send it to me, but don't send it to Dave, because I want to see the reaction on the show, which I think makes for better content anyway. So I'm very excited for that just to hear your list next to mine. It's a real choose your own adventure for a lot of these. All right, let's get it going, though, with let's just get it out of the way. I don't really think it's much of an adventure.

It's funny because Dane and I just did the, we did like a 25% of the way rookie team where we were just looking at the first month. And at the end of September, Cam Ward was the only quarterback you could choose because he was like the only guy that we had seen. Right. And a month later, I kind of feel like you don't have a choice, but to say it's Jackson Dart.

And that's not to say that he's been bad. He's obviously, he's played really impressively. But unless you're just enamored with watching Bad Titans football weekend and week out, Jackson Dart is kind of your only choice. Same thing for Dylan Gabriel. Like unless you're really loving all of those checkdowns in Cleveland, Jackson Dart kind of wins this thing by default.

Yeah, no, I agree with you. Jackson Dart has to be the pick here, quarterback. And again, saying has to feels like it's more insulting than it really is. Obviously, he gets into the game and they put him in as a starter. It totally changes the offense. And my co-host at the PFF NFL show, Dalman, put it perfectly where he comes into the game. And Brian Dable basically takes the playbook they had from 2022 that year that they made the playoffs with Daniel Jones and with Sequan Barkley playing really well. And he basically just dusted that bad boy off.

And he was like, we're going to run this offense again with Scatibu and with Dart because Dart had the ability to do it. So the rushing addition, I think sort of speaks for itself in what he's able to bring to the offense. And then as a passer, like, I was lower on Jackson Dart than I think a lot of other people in the industry because I got worried about some of those situations where it wasn't exactly idea, whether that was passing under pressure, specifically passing in the fourth quarter. You know, basically, Old Miss has a lot of simplicitys in their offense, which to laying Kiffin's credit, like, that's why he's a great coach is he simplifies things for his quarterbacks. And a lot of time it is really just these one read things where you don't really. have to go through progressions. You've got a lot of freedom to hang on to the ball for a really long time. And Jackson's still done that in the NFL. Like it's time to throw is above three. And then when it's pressure it's above four, I believe. So he still has those tendencies,

but it really hasn't been that bad for him. Like he's got more big time throws and he does turn over where he's obviously got some moments where he's willing to throw the ball deeper down the field and into tight coverage that you have to do to win at the NFL level that Russell Wilson wasn't willing to do in those first couple of weeks. And so I think DART, especially coming from somebody who people would label as a Jackson DART hater, like, I think he has been better than I expected him to be right out of the gate. And so I want to give him his kudos for that. When you consider too what he's working with, I mean, what? I don't know how many snaps he had with Malik neighbors, but it was, it was his first game. It is, it's kind of annoying to think that

I don't know how much higher the ceiling's going to get for the Giants' offense as a whole. Like you don't have neighbors. Now they just lose Cam Scatobu, which sucks. And so Jackson Dart could keep playing out of his mind, but where's the rest of it coming from over the course of the year? I mean, I guess the Giants could be buyers at the trade deadline. I think that would be a bit of a mistake, assuming, hopefully they wouldn't give up anything too much. But yeah. So I don't know how much higher the ceiling gets.

but I've been really impressed with what he's done. And yeah, like, does a lot of it rely on his athleticism? Absolutely. But that is like that part of his skill set helped him get drafted where he did. So I think there's a tendency to be like, oh, well, what, what do you do when you can't run around and extend plays? And it's like, well, these guys get drafted highly because that is a very big part of their game that is hard to take away.

So I think it's, I think it's worth pointing out that that is something that makes these guys valuable, even if it's not, quote, unquote, like true quarterbacking, you know? Totally. And really, the only extension to that conversation of why it could be seen as a negative and sort of my hesitancy is, is when you rely too heavily upon it, right? We see college quarterbacks who have that freedom and have that athletic ability when they're at the college level. And whether it's because NFL defense is just a little bit faster or who they are as an athlete just isn't head and shoulders above NFL competition the way that it was in college, sometimes you get too relying on that. And you become one of those like, all right, one read and take off type of

quarterbacks. And there just are not a lot of quarterbacks in this league that can survive off of that. But DART is showcasing why he was considered a first round pick by NFL teams, especially the New York Giants, in what he's able to bring to the table from an athletic standpoint, for sure. And throughout the ups and downs, he makes the Giants a team that I want to watch, which is not something that you could take for granted over the last 10 years. All right. So Jackson, Dart, a default winner, but a worthy winner, if that makes sense. Let's move on to running back, which I should have said this at the top of the exercise, Trev. We're doing this a little bit differently. There's no like AP all rookie team. So we're granted a little bit of freedom with how we want to do this. You know,

you see a lot of, you see a lot of like all-star teams have two running backs or, uh, there are certain number of wide receivers. We wanted to do this kind of fantasy football style. So our, team is going to have one one running back, two receivers and one tight end. And then the last skill player is going to be a flex position. It can be any one of the three. It's up to the two of us. So I don't know how Trev decided to handle that. And I'm excited to see how that plays out. So for running back, I only had one. How many did you have? I have one running back. Yes. Okay. Which makes this very interesting if we didn't have the same one. I know and and this was a position that I kind of agonized over and I felt I felt conflicted no matter who I chose because one guy like one guy might be a little too simplistic and then the other one maybe you're overthinking it but I came down on Quinn Sean Judkins.

Okay. All right. Do you want to explain Quinn Sean Jenkins or do you want to hear who I pick? I want to hear who you say first because I want to like yeah, I want to see if it's. it's the guy that I almost chose. I took Cam Scataboo. Cam Scadaboo is my choice. Oh, interesting. Okay. Full disclosure, I guess, and that's not really fair. I,

it bummed me out to put Scatibu on a team like this because he's not going to be playing moving forward, which maybe that's good justification for doing it where it's like, hey, let's reward what he did, what he was able to do. So I appreciate that. Yeah. So it was basically, and for me, I considered, I considered Quinchon, Quintan was actually third for me though because I, Omarian Hampton's missed time.

Obviously he's been on IR for a little bit, but like his flashes and his best were really impactful for the charger. So I actually almost went with him, but the consistency of what Camp Scataboo has been, both as a rusher and receiver, you look at yards after contact per attempt, yards after the catch per attempt, and then just volume in and of itself.

I mean, Malik Neighbors goes down and you feel like, oh my gosh, what are the giant? have at this point. They had cam. They were very clearly comfortable with handing him the ball and throwing it to him as a receiver. And the injury, man, it just sucks because not only do you hate injuries no matter what, but this is one of the most fun players in the NFL. He had a big, bold personality. He absolutely brought that to how he played the game of football. I loved watching him when he was at Arizona State. And so there's a little bit of pre-draft bias baked into this because I had him RB3 in this past class and I had him as that because of what I saw him do

at Arizona State that I felt like he was already doing with the New York Giants and he was only going to continue to do that at a consistent level. So I've just, I've loved so much of what he's been able to do and going back a little bit to what we talked about with Dart. Hey, what are you without Malik neighbors? Where are the weapons? Who are you going to lean on? They leaned on Cam. And I think that he, the more they leaned on him, the more they got in return. And I feel as though we were only at the tip of the iceberg of what he was going to potentially be for them in his rookie season. So you're right. Sucks that we're not going to see him anymore this season. I hope he's fully healthy going into next year. But for the first, whatever it is, two months that we've had

of this season, I felt like he has been the choice for my midseason running back. I do love that point. And you don't want to hold on to your draft priors forever. But Cam Scataboo, such a polarizing prospect because like there's the camp of people that are like you're all overthinking this look at the way this guy played at Arizona State like he is a damn good running back and then there were just as many people that were like you're not going to be able to live that way in the NFL. It's just not realistic. And through at least the first half of his rookie season, Cam Cam was putting the doubters, you know, he was he was shutting him up a little bit. So I think it's, that is a very valid point. I'm very sad that the dart scataboo takeover.

won't keep happening in in New York, at least this year. As far as Quinn Sean Jenkins, like, I feel like it's a little too obvious just because he's leading all rookies and rushing yards. Right. But he is at 104 rushing yards over expectation right now. And he has 164 of his rushing yards after contact. Like all of the shit that Ashton Genties dealing with in Vegas, Quinn Sean Judkins is dealing with too. And he has been insanely productive. he's obviously been such a bright spot on a bad Cleveland offense. And the way that he's managed to make a lot of it happen despite very unideal circumstances, I just think is incredibly impressive.

I think that Cleveland's offensive line not really being good anymore is a very under-talked about part of that team. It was very, very shocking to me that they did not address offensive line at all whatsoever this past off season in free agency or in the draft in particular, which is what I was really talking about. And I think that you're seeing that this year. Yeah, they don't really have the star power to compete, but it wouldn't really matter who's playing quarterback for them.

That offensive line just was not going to be as good as it needed to be. And I think that Quintan Juggins being able to produce absolutely goes into sort of his willingness and his running style of what we saw when he was at Ole Miss, when he was at Ohio State, where this is a dude who can get all sorts of yards after contact for you. He's somebody who can kind of do it yourself as much as you can independent of an offensive line. And so his overall numbers are really good. You mentioned the yards over expectation because the volume sort of goes into that just as a volume stat as a whole. But he is continuing to deliver when they need for him to deliver. But I'll shout out to Marian Hampton who, like I said, he was

going to be my second pick if I didn't go with Cam Scadaboo. And the reason why is because, yeah, he's missed some time due to injury, obviously. But the efficiency numbers from him have been really, really good. A metric that we love over at PFF to sort of separate right running backs from their offensive line is mistackles forced per attempt and yards after contact per attempt, right? Mistackles forced, you can force a mistackle in the backfield. You can do that at the line of scrimmage. You can do that at the second level. Same thing with yards after contact. You can get hit in the backfield. You get hit at the line of scrimmage. You get hit in the second level. What do you do after that? Do you make guys miss and do you get those yards after

contact? 0.35 mistackles force per attempt is a very, very good mark. If you are above a 0.3 zero mis-tackles, force per attempt average. You're talking about being one of the best and most efficient backs in the NFL. And then when it comes to yards after contact, 3.8, I mean, that's fantastic. That's a really good score.

Anything above 3, I think, is a really good score when it comes to yards after contact. So lower on the volume, but he also gives you something in the receiving game as well, not quite as much as Cam Scataboo did, but I think Omari and Hampton is going to be a good one. Ultimately, not enough to get me to pick him. But I just, I'm going to use this opportunity to just say,

Ashton Genty's still a good player for the record. Like, I just, why would you say something so controversial yet so brave? I just want to say that into a microphone. And like, we can have all the conversations we want about whether the Raiders should have drafted him. But he's doing just fine in a really bad situation, just for whatever that's worth. When they get the offensive line and really just the passing game a little bit better, a little bit more efficient, Ashton Jentee will still be the guy that you thought he was going to be. coming out of Boise State.

Nothing is wrong with Action Gentie. I agree with you and I'm glad you said it. All right. Wide receivers, again, we had to choose two, but you don't have to choose three. I am curious how many you went with. I only went with two here. Did you go with three?

No, we're two lined up here. I was wondering if you were going to go with three. So I'm going to step out on a limb here. It's a very sturdy limb. I don't think I'm going to be wrong when I say, you went with Emeka, Abuka, and Tetaroa McMillan. I did indeed. That's a lot of just shocking stuff here.

And you have to, right? I mean, it lines up with them being wide receiver one and wide receiver two. I think people knew that Tetraulte was going to have to step in and be that wide receiver one. I remember going through the pre-draft process and saying, look, if Carolina is going to consider him at their spot, because we did go through these exercises when we talked about the Carolina Panthers, you would do so because you look at the rest of your receivers and you feel like, right, now they're all punching up above their weight class. Xavier Liggett, he was kind of forced into being a wide receiver one for them and he really

isn't a wide receiver one type of player. Adam Thielen, at his point in his career, was having to be a wide receiver two, sometimes even wide receiver one, and he is more of a wide receiver three. Jalen Coker, for as much as he was doing great things last year, you don't want him to be that wide receiver two for you. You would ideally like for him to be a flexible move, put him anywhere. on the offense type of a wide receiver three. When you draft Emeka,

or sorry, when you draft Tetraulte, McMillan, that all gets to fall in line. And I think that's why, beyond his production, the value that he brings as the staple wide receiver one in that offense is the reason why you were seeing it operate a lot better this season. So I think that that fit was fantastic

in the Bigelka, man. The injuries to Mike Evans, the how Chris Godwin sort of came back, but now he's back on the injury report, and it's a slow comeback from his ankle injury. Like, where is this team without Emeka Ibuka? And I know some other guys like Cam Johnson, you know, Tess Johnson are stepping up and obviously they've needed that.

But if they don't have the Bucca, I don't think this team is six and two. At the very least, I think they got at least one less win and it might be two just because that passing offense for his greatest Baker-Mayfield has been doesn't get to have the statistics in the production that it has without Abuka in there. The way that it all got steadily removed from Emeka Abuka, like a jinga game where you're just slowly pulling blocks out of there.

Like even going back to the preseason, like Jalen McMillan was a guy that had a chance to play a big role. He's gone. Evans leaves in short order. Obviously Godwin's working back from an injury. And guys have come in and out of the lineup at different times. But the prevailing theory was like, oh, man, you don't even need Ibuka to carry that much of a load in his rookie year because you got all this stuff.

And it was all gone by like week three of. the season and he's still, I know he's ticked down a little bit since that amazing Seattle game. I mean, the whole Bucks offense really has over the last couple weeks, but just outstanding stuff consider. I mean, even if everybody was healthy, it would be outstanding. But since they're not, even crazier. He just needs to play against a fellow Ohio statewide receiver every week just to have that like pride of who's the best. And then yeah, then we'll see more of the Seattle game from him. But no, he's been fantastic. And, you know, we do. live draft show over at PFF and we happen to be in commercial when the pick came in for

Emeka, Buka, and my jaw hit the floor. I could, I could not believe it because, and then we're sitting there and, you know, we start talking about it when we come back from break and it's like, I love this player. This is a top 20 player for me. I think he's just such a clean eval. He's absolutely a guy who's going to be an NFL difference maker. But does Tampa need him? Was this a luxury pick that you really didn't need to make. And again, it's just, it's very ironic, interesting. I don't know what the exact word is that now without him, I can't imagine where this, this buck's team would be.

I think it's a picture perfect example of like, just don't assume too much about the future in the NFL. And I hate to be a bummer. We love Mike Evans. You're a big buccaneers guy. But who could have guessed when that happened? Like, how many games are the three of the, these going to even play together when it's all said and done. It's probably not going to be very many.

I mean, did they even? I don't think, did they get one? I don't know if they got one with all three. I don't think they did get one with all three. So, I mean, case in point. Man. Yeah. And obviously, so yeah, never assumed too much. And quickly about McMillan, I do just want to say very similarly, consider and not that we thought the world of the of the Panthers past catchers coming in, but like consider that situation as well. Xavier Leggett was dealing with an injury earlier in the year. Also just had a very disappointing start to the year.

Jalen Coker started the year on injured reserve. Right. Adam Thielen got traded away before the season started. Jimmy Horn was hurt before at the beginning of the season. And all he did was step in. Granted, you're supposed to do that when you're a top 10 pick, but he just stepped in. was the most consistent thing about the passing offense from the word go.

And he's just been that guy every week, just looking effortless out there. Did you have a third wide receiver that you either thought about for this position or thought about at the flex? I debated Travis Hunter just for the high points of it all, you know? Sure. Yeah. The highlights have been incredibly impressive. But I couldn't get there with a guy who was consistent enough.

over that many weeks. I agree with you. I thought about Hunter, but ultimately, you're right. I mean, like, it's just not there from a totality standpoint for him to match up against these two. Elyle-O-Manner has been good for the Titans, but not what a Bukin and Tet have been. Matthew Golden obviously has looked good in Spurs. Packer fans might take issue with me, not even mentioning Matthew Golden, but I think I liked my other options that much more. Yeah, Golden has been good. And so that's, why I think that he deserves a shout out here on the show. Golden has been good, but the fact the matter is, he's just in an offense with a lot of different passing weapons that to throw

to. And it was just too obvious what Igbuka and McMillan have meant to their teams to not have them as the two guys here. So let's do tight end. And based on what we're saying, we both chose two. Yeah. I know who one of them is going to be. I'm curious to see where we came down on the other one. So obviously, we both chose Tyler Warren. I'm not even going to ask you that. question. I man is he is he rookie of the year like no I don't know like no offense to a mecca abuka and they're going to be guys that have something to say about this but geez dude Tyler Tyler Warren I liked him as a prospect maybe I wasn't and and maybe this is on me I don't know if I firmly believed that an NFL team would be able to deploy him on in all the ways that Penn

State did yeah like in order to get your bang for your buck that that that's what you got to do. And my God, if Shane Steichen didn't have a beautiful plan. Yeah. And to answer your question, you know, of all the accolades that we're going to talk about when it comes to the Indianapolis Colts, you know, Jonathan Taylor, you know, MVP or offensive player of the year, you know, Quentin Nelson, he's going to win Protector of the year. Tyler Warren, is he going to win rookie of the year? Of all the awards that we talk about for the Indianapolis Colts, the one that is at the forefront is coach of the year. like what Shane Steichen is doing not just from a win-loss perspective,

but that offense, I know you know this, is nuts. I mean, every single week they score 30 plus, their EPA per play for not just the entire stretch of the game, but like first quarter starting off the game every single week. The game plan is flawless for this team. Now, I understand they haven't played the best competition, but it just, it is unbelievable how it, is all coming together. And you talked about what Tyler Warren has been able to do in this

offense. It's not always that we get NFL coaches that look at what these very talented, effective, productive football players do at the college level and say, yeah, let's try to continue to do that. A lot of times they'll draft guys and they'll be like, hey, we think you're really talented, but you're going to play within our system. You are going to play within an NFL type of offense here. Shane Stike and Chris Ballard, the Indianapolis Colts, looked at everything that Tyler Warren did for Penn State as a inline blocker, as a slot receiver, as an out wide receiver, as a running back out of the backfield, as a lead blocking fullback, as a split zone wing back, and even as a wildcat quarterback at Penn State.

And they said, yep, do that. Let's do that. Let's take all that stuff that you just were. Let's draft it. And then let's do that in your rookie season. So to answer the spirit of your question, he should absolutely be up for debate for a rookie of the year because of everything this dude does. He's so good. His tape looks indistinguishable from Penn State, which yeah, I just didn't really know if

I believe that that was going to happen. I love watching him so much. He's, he's a good blocker. They put him in the backfield. He's running routes from like an offset eye. He's doing traditional tight-in stuff. He's got a wildcat quarterback snap under his belt. He's, he's the man. All right. But that leads to the more interesting question. You chose a second tight end and so did I. I did. I'm just going to take the cowards way out because I host the show and ask you for your guy. I picked Harold Fannin Jr.

Okay. All right. Let's talk about this because, all right, were you between him and who were you between him in? O'Ronday Gaston. All right. It had to be. I chose Gadsden.

I chose Arronday Gadsden. And I, so I bet you we came down on different sides of the same rationale. Yes. It was basically a situation where very similarly to the way that you talked about Quinn Sean Jenkins, overcoming sort of the deficiencies of the rest of the offense. Harold Finn and Jr. has basically had to be that guy for the Cleveland Browns since the very first game of the season. He played 55 snaps in game one.

There was no. It's pretty incredible. And he played 50. And the thing is, he played 55 snaps. David and Joku exists. Right? Like David and Joku, I know he's been heard. He's been in and out of lineup a little bit, but like, like he is consistently playing. You look at the amount of snaps that he has played in a single week. 55, 46, 42, 57, 50, 55, 66, 47, 40. This guy is a mainstay of the offense, whether there's

two tight ends on the field or not, whether David and Joku is out there or not. And he has been able to give them return on investment the way that he was able to play again at Bowling Green. And I look at sort of his tape there. And it's like, man, a reason why I was a little bit lower on him was because I just truly doubted that an NFL team would give a smaller tight end, sort of this freedom to be this sort of emphasis in their offense. And the Browns absolutely have, and he has been a pretty good return on investment type of a player for them. So for how much they have used him and for how much they have needed him since game one of this season, it was simply a volume thing. Because the highs are there for Gaston, right? It's a little bit.

smaller in sample size, but the highs are there for him. I went with the volume guy who's been producing since week one in Harold Fennon Jr. I'll be honest, it's probably the right answer because Fannin's been doing it from the word go and just consistently week after week in a bad situation, just toiling away in obscurity in the 12 p.m. window. I just, I was so taken with what Gadsden's been able to do. And he was a healthy scratch at the start of the season and the way that he has outpaced Harold Fanon and almost everybody, but Tyler Warren, really, in that time. Like, you know, you know that guy, the freeze that races people in the outfield of Braves games? No. I have no idea, but keep going because the people that know this analogy, it's probably

going to hit. So they let fans run the warning track at Braves games and they give them like a, they give them like a hundred yard head start. And then they let, they let this guy who's like a sprinter go after 100 yards. And the whole goal is just to see if he can hawk them down despite their lead. That's how I feel about Gadsden where he was just chilling for two weeks. And now he's just hawking everybody down because he's playing with Justin Herbert. And I mean, obviously his stats against the, uh, the Colts are doing a lot of heavy lifting. But I mean, it's been it's been three weeks in a row now where clearly he's going to be a big

part of this thing moving forward. So I think, I think it's fair to say, Fannin's been the more consistent guy, but it's just been fun to watch him kind of take off. Yeah, it's honestly, it's hard to have a wrong answer between these two players because their cases are so different. Like if you just said like Harold Fannett, for example, he has 377 receiving yards this year. Almost 200 of them are after the catch. And over 100 of them are after contact, right? And then if you look Gaston, his numbers aren't that good from those categories.

but the overall receiving yards are there. The contest, the catch is he's like 100% this year. His yards per route run is two and a half. It's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, it's not. It's stupid. It's nuts. So anyways, I think that there's not really a wrong answer between these two.

I will shout out though. Jackson Hawes and Mitchell Evans. The two more blocking tight ends, one for the Buffalo Bills and one for the Carolina Panthers. They don't have the overall like offensive production to I think get considered. for this position here, but both of them grading very, very well this season. And to be honest, doing a great job unlocking heavy personnel the way that these teams have wanted to. Carolina's gone more towards heavy personnel and 12 personnel since I think like week three or four on. And a big reason is because they've had Mitchell Evans to be able to command that line of scrimmage for them,

Wogetitavian Sanders, whoever else is going to be condensed on line of scrimmage could be more of a receiver. They get to do that because of what Mitchell Evans is doing. so I just want to shout out those two guys who have been playing well. Deservedly so. Justice for the non-stat getters. All right. We're going to take our first break and on the other side, we'll dive into the rookie offensive lineman.

All right, Trev. I'm debating how I want to do this. I guess let's just start with the offensive tackles because I think we can spend the least amount of time on it, in my opinion. I just, the look you're giving me, all right, I, at least, I didn't feel the need to spend a lot of time. time on it. I went, I think Will Campbell has shown me more than enough that I feel comfortable putting him at the left tackle spot. And I freaking love Armand Membue and did not D,

I did not think that hard about plugging him in at right tackle either. So we agree on one of them. Okay. We agree on Armand Membou. Yeah. I mean, that's not, it's not controversial if you didn't choose Will Campbell. Like obviously, Will Campbell's had his ups and downs. We're recording this right after the Cleveland New England game. So we know that Will Campbell is not, it's not as if he's like a, you know, an immovable wall or anything. So I don't think this is controversial.

I just think Will Campbell, he did enough for me. But what was your thought process here? So I also, I like what Will Campbell has been able to do. Starting as a rookie in the trenches, very difficult task, especially at offensive tackle. And so for him to be grading pretty well, You go and you watch the tape and he's got, he's already, I think, a really technically sound blocker. And the ways that he loses are kind of the ways that he lost when he was at LSU.

Just doesn't quite have that long stretch of a kick slide when it comes to protecting that outside shoulder. The arm length is a little bit shorter. And when he's taking on bull rushes from some of the more stronger defense ends, especially when they get a runway and they get to convert that speed to power, he gets knocked back a little bit and he's not able to anchor as well as some of these other guys. but he's still on the in-between, very, very steady. He's doing a great job. And so I think that I almost went with Will Campbell here.

I actually went with Josh Simmons, the offensive tackle from the Kansas City Chiefs. Which for the record, and look, it's clearly whatever's going on with Josh Simmons is clearly a pretty serious situation. So I'm not making light of it. I probably would have chosen Josh Simmons if he had played seven or eight games. but as of right now, I believe he's either played four or five. Yes. And so it wasn't enough of a sample size for me to choose him over Will Campbell. If he had played the full allotment of games, I don't think I would have even thought hard about it.

So in an extension of that, we just did an episode over on my draft podcast, the NFL Stock Exchange, where we went through like the best and worst returns for, you know, each round of the NFL drafts and players that have happened midway through the season. and I didn't even really consider Josh Simmons for the best return with him being the last pick of the first round. And some people, some people in the chat in the comments, they were like, whoa, like no mention of Josh Simmons at all. And in my head, when I went into this exercise, I didn't really think to mention Simmons because he's missed three games now at this point. And we don't know when he's going to be back. So I didn't really consider him just because of a lack of volume like you mentioned there. But then when I went back to go watch the tape, yeah, there's more of a volume for these other guys.

in my opinion, Simmons has been the best. Now, he hasn't been the best run blocker, the run blocking stuff. He's not as effective. But boy, when I watch this guy in pass protection, he's got the lowest pressure percentage allowed, obviously he has the lowest total pressures allowed because he's only played a handful of games for these other guys that played, you know, seven or eight. But the pressure percentage for him is the lowest of any of these guys, especially the left tackles. And I just think that he looks like he handles power so well. He's got that explosiveness. that we saw at Ohio State where he's able to protect that outside shoulder,

but he can still mirror guys for the inside. I think he is a future stud in this league. And so that was one where I just went back and I watched a little more tape. And I was like, you know what? He doesn't have the volume, but actually like his tape the most. So I went with Josh Simmons as my left tackle here. That's a true Scouts answer right there. And I don't take issue with it.

And it's easy to imagine, like when it's all said and done, Will Campbell was the top five pick. but it's very easy to imagine Josh Simmons being just the most impressive option at left tackle, just in terms of like looking like that prototypical guy. Will Campbell, he's never going to look like the prototypical guy because he's not. And that was the knock on him from people that didn't like him as much. And you've definitely seen that over the course of this year. But I kind of love, what I love about Will Campbell is that he has displayed the issues that a lot of people thought he would have.

and it hasn't stopped him from being successful. That was totally my thought about him and why I loved him still as a prospect. It's like, yeah, there are going to be, if he goes up against Jared Verse, if he goes up against Miles Garrett, yes, it's going to be a tough day for him. Those dudes convert speed to power incredibly well,

pound for pound, they're some of the strongest dudes in the NFL. It's just going to be a tough day for Will Campbell. But 14 out of the 17 games that he plays in the regular season, he's going to play a pretty clean game every single time. And so, yeah, like you said, like is he the elite of the elite when it comes to those physical traits? No, but man, the floor is so high for Will Campbell.

And I think it's pretty rare that you see that already as a rookie. On the flip side of that, though, like if Josh Simmons keeps ascending toward the ceiling that it looks like he's scratching, as good as Will Campbell could be, that's the type of thing that makes you look back a few years later, like, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Interior, interior was, it's tricky because you just don't have that many options. Like for instance, let me, let's just get center out of the way. There really aren't any options for like rookie every weekend, week out centers.

So I just went, I just went three interior offensive linemen. That's probably the right way to do it. Because of exactly what you said. Is Jonah Monheem the only one who has like a good amount of snaps this year? He played like one game for Jacksonville. He's like, the only one. So here's, this is the way I thought about it. We can still send him the award. You know, still send him the award. He can still get it in the mail, put it on the trophy case. But the way my brain works is I was like, well, Jared Wilson deserves to be mentioned here. And he played center in college. So he'll just be my rookie center. It's fine. There you go. There you go. I like it. I like him getting in there. I almost had him in there.

He was my fourth of the three that I chose here. I went with Tate Ratlidge from the Detroit Lions, who I think is really fitting in very, very well with that offensive line. I went with Gray's Abel from the Seattle Seahawks because I think he's been a perfect fit for their outside zone rushing scheme. The way that this dude gets off the ball playing that guard spot, I mean, he just explodes out of his stance. Now, pass protection, it's still a work in progress for him. But you see he's already playing so much confidence when they're calling a run play. And so the run blocking stuff, in my opinion, is really good for him, especially for the fit of where he ended up going. The pass protection stuff, eh, we're still.

working on it, but I still think that he was worthy of being mentioned here. And then Connor Colby ended up being my third guy that I picked here for the San Francisco 49er, simply because when I actually was going back and forth between him and Jared Wilson, if you wanted a guy for center, I totally understand how you were like, all right, I'm going to throw Jared Wilson in there because he played center at Georgia. I think it's very black and white terms. I'm like, well, I got to have a center. If you have to have a center in there, I totally get it. But Colby was somebody who I think has showed through eight games a little bit higher of a floor than Wilson. Wilson still has those positively graded plays where he's been pretty good.

And he's showing, man, that's somebody who the athleticism, the core strength, the balance, it's there for Wilson. And it's funny, the Patriots have him playing guard. You can kind of tell just looking at him that it's like, you want to have your hand on the ball right now, don't you? And when he's playing at that guard spot. And it's just the way that his pre-snap stands, just the way that he's sitting down, like everything, you could just kind of tell that he wants to play that center spot. But Colby, I think, has had a little bit higher of a floor. He's dealt with power and a little bit easier.

He's been a little bit more consistent with leverage. He's been, in my opinion, a little bit better and more consistent when it comes to, you know, reach blocks, getting to the second level, being coordinated in that regard. So I think that Colby, where he hasn't been perfect, I don't think any of these interior guys have been perfect per se. but I just I liked what I saw the more I watched from him and and it was between him and Wilson I ended up going Colby for the consistency. I think that's a good shout and for stuff like this especially because we're not actually sending anybody any awards. If you can do this as like a day three pick, I just want to highlight that. Like I you know you have less less opportunity to

the playing field, less people you know, like less sponsors in the organization to still do that. I think that's a great shout. Oh, yeah. So I also had Gray's able and Tate Ratledge as well. That wraps up the offensive line. Let's do our second break. And then we'll get into the defense, which I think is going to be a lot less straightforward right after this. All right, Trevor, it's, this has been the inside joke all season long. And I'm going to keep it going. Okay. I don't know. Just what, what do we need to say about Abdul Carter? I mean, he leads all rookies and pressures. He's got a 13 and a half percent win rate. He's, he's, he's awesome. I mean, I know he only has one sack, but he looks exactly like we thought he would look. I just don't think we need to talk a lot about him. And I feel bad for Giants fans because we're not talking a lot about their very good young player. But like, what do you want me to say? Right.

Like in the interest of saving some time, let's just say, Abdul Carter, you kick ass. Now let's talk about these other spots on the defensive line. Yeah, number three overall pick. Could have very well been the number one overall pick talent wise. You nailed it. Well done. There you go. Now let's fight about these other three spots on the defensive line because this

this stressed me the hell out. Yeah. So the way that I went about it is I went with two edge rushers and then two interior defenders. Same. You go the same thing? Same. Okay. Do you want me to go one at a time?

You want me to name all three and then just kind of talk about all three? Let's go one at a time. And I'm just, okay, I will actually, just so I'm not always being a coward. I'll start this off. And I want to talk about the other edge spot, which caused me a lot of angst. Okay. Because the guy that I wanted to name, like, doesn't have the stats to back it up. And I think people are going to call me crazy.

But I just, I want to say for the record, Mikkel Williams, I think you're a good football player. Oh, okay. I think Mikel Williams is a good football player. I think the 49ers are beat to shit. I think they drafted him primarily to like at least at the start be like a run defender and kick inside and just cause havoc and Nick Bose is not coming back and they're a young defense and they're asking him to do a lot of shit and he doesn't always look up to it but he's a really good football player and and I think he is just fine and I'm tired of people acting like he's some terrible

draft pick. I do think that he He is what the 49ers, well, I should say, I was lower on Michael Williams simply because I didn't think that he was ever going to be the pass rusher that he has the talent or maybe people thought that he had the overall ability to become at the NFL level. So I was a little bit lower on him, but I fully recognized, dude, this guy's strong as an ox. He's got the super long arms. He could play on a four eye technique on an odd front if you want him to. He'd play a five technique as a defensive end if you wanted to.

he could set the edge for you. He could take on double teams decently well for a player of his weight and profile. So as a run defender, I think they are getting what they wanted out of Mikel Williams. I think the real

frustration when it comes to the Mikel Williams conversation is you're going to have people who go, a guy who can't rush the passers not worth number 11 overall. And then you're going to have other people who go,

he's a good football player. And I think those people are sort of just going to bicker and fight against each other and they're just both going to believe that they're going to be right. So with Mikel Williams, he has been fine in run defense. I think that, I think what sucks with Mikel, and this is not his fault, you mentioned Nick Bosa going out and even Bryce Huff getting hurt as well. There's nobody really on this team to rush the

passer. I mean, let's face it, they were terrible at run defense last year. So what did they do? They draft Mikel Williams, run defender, CJ West, run defender, Alfred Collins, run defender. And now all of a sudden, in theory, you have a pretty good defensive line. line. You have Nick Bosa who could tee off when he gets the green light and when he can pin his ears back. You got Bryce Huff who you added to be that designated pass rusher for you and you improve the floor of the defensive line. But now instead, Huff's hurt, Bosa's out for the season. Now a lot of people are looking at Mikel Williams and going, okay, be a better pass rusher. And that's not fair to him because he's never been that. So the conversation I think is

often wrong about Mikel Williams. I again, I was lower on him just because of the potential and the pass rush I didn't think was going to be there for him. But I don't think he is a bad football player by any means. I think he's given the 49ers sort of exactly what the scouting report read this season. I understand that for a pick that high, you want some pass rush production. And he's not providing it to the degree that you need. And if you're drafted 11th overall, I understand people that say like, well, you're supposed to be good enough that I don't care who's not there. So like, I understand that stuff. But I don't know. I trust. I think the floor is going to be pretty high for what he could become. And if he surprises people with what he's capable of with his ceiling, I just, I think he's a good player. And then so I was between him and Donovan Azaraku.

Oh, baby. And I will gladly take Donovan Azaraku. Donovan Azaraku, I think over the last month has really kicked into gear. I think that's completely fair. You know, he's second among all rookies and pressures. And 13 of his 17. pressures have come in the last month. I think that's completely fair. And you know what, you know what I keep thinking about too, having just said this about Michael Williams? If Donovan Azaraku was on a pass rush with like some better pass rushers, I don't know, like maybe one of the best ones in the NFL, like an all pro caliber pass rusher, how much better do you think he would look if he was in a more complimentary role instead of the Cowboys being like, all right, Donovan, go do that shit you did at BC right off the

bat and save our pass rush now that we traded Micah Parsons. Yeah, I, I love Donovan Azaraku. He was my guy. I can't remember exactly where I had him ranked, but I believe I had him as a top 20, if not a top 15 overall player in the class. So it's funny that we talk about him next to the conversation with Michael Williams, because I'm going to be honest with you, I would have drafted Donovan Aziraku at 11. Like, that is who I would have picked at number 11. I had him ranked above Michael Williams. And when you look at Mikel, Michael's average average depth of target or sorry average depth of tackle I should say in run defense is right at the line of scrimmage it's right around zero and i as iraku's is like a 1.3 but a 1.3 is still a really good

mark for solo stops. Mikel williams this year has nine solo stops himself. Donovan as a racco has eight so he's only one behind where a run defender like michael williams is and you mentioned the pass rush over the last three weeks specifically uh Donovan asaqu has had a passers win percentage above 20 in each of the last three guys. games that the Cowboys have played. I think pound for pound, he has always been a plus run defender for his size. He is still able to do that at the NFL level. His pastures win percentage is, like I said, it's, it's been above 20 over the last three weeks. It's above 13 for the season, which is second only to Abdul Carter. And I just think the dude's a stud.

And I think he's a hell of a football player. So I think the earlier turns are pretty good. It sure as hell looks like it's coming together for him. All right, on the interior, going back to the point we just made about Connor Colby on the offensive line, we got a shout out Dion Walker, right? Dion Walker is on my list. Yes, he is. Yes, he is. The other, all right, so my two defensive tackles are Dion Walker and Derek Harmon.

Derek Harmon is, he's a phenomenal player. He's a lot less interesting to me just because he was drafted highly. That's what he's supposed to do. He comes back from injury. He leads all into your defensive linemen impression. he's tied for most sacks among rookies and he's doing this after missing the early part of the season so incredibly impressive but i do want to highlight dion walker because when you're talking about a day three pick having seven tackles for loss on a veteran laden bills defense i just i think that's

one of the coolest stories of the year that's going a little unsung right now yeah and when i talked about solo stops the rookie who has the most solo stops in run defense this year is in fact the on Walker. I was one of the guys who was a little bit lower on Dion Walker just because there was a lot of hype about him going into his last year at Kentucky. And when I looked at him, I was like, man, I just don't love the pad level that he plays with. And unless he really figures out how to get more flexible in his glutes, his hamstring, and his lower back to really be able to start at a lower point, I just get really worried about the fact that when the ball is snapped, he pops straight up. And when you're six foot seven and you have those long arms,

it's really great on a, you know, on a measurement sheet of like, wow, look at this guy. He's a behemoth. He's so big and he's long and it's great. But you don't think about the fact that if you lose the leverage battle every single snap, that ain't good. And that's what it felt like it was. Now, I know he was going through a back injury his last year that he was at Kentucky. But that also compounded of why I was a little bit worried if he was going to be able to fix his leverage at the NFL level. There are still. plays from what I watched when I went through this exercise with him on tape where he does give up that leverage a little bit too early. But there are more plays this year than I saw last year,

at least at more of a consistent basis, where he is low. That pad level is low. And he just gets to be that big six foot seven long behemoth of a player in the middle for the Buffalo bills. And he's giving them some really high impact plays. So it's a good shout out by you. I also have him on my list. And then the second defensive tackle that I have, I'll go a little bit of a Homer here, but I'm only going to Homer because I don't really have a strong feeling on anybody else. Elijah Roberts from Tampa Bay has been awesome for them as a fifth round pick. This is somebody who, a little bit of a pre-draft bias from me, independent of my Tampa Bay bias that I might have. Sure, sure, sure. I had Elijah Roberts is my 86th overall player and he

ends up going in the fifth round. Like, I thought this dude, elite pass rush grade the last two years at SMU. He's a little bit of a tweener in his size, but that works for Todd Bulls odd front because he can play from a four eye. He can play a little bit of three tech. He can play as a heavy-handed five-technique defensive end for you. And in run defense, like it's, he struggles against the double teams just because he doesn't have a lot of weight on him. But he's been pretty good when it comes to that passers win percentage and getting in the backfield. And he's been an underrated player for them as a guy who's a fifth rounder who has really been able to step up and start and place some major major minutes for him, if you will. So

I think that he has been fantastic, but to be honest with you, it was really just an exercise where Harmon's missed some time, you mentioned, and he's been good in past rush. Run defense stuff has been not great from him, but the good is at least really good with Derek Harmon, and so you can hang your hat on that. I do agree with you there, but, man, Mason Graham's been okay. Kenneth Grant's had some, he's been better over the last couple of weeks,

but he had a downright terrible start. Walter Nolan's not played due to injury. Tyleek Williams, I think it's been okay, but he's been even a little hit and miss when it comes to the run defense stuff. This is a tough position for rookies. I mean, I think everybody knows that. And yeah, I mean, for a guy like Harmon,

to come in and affect the pass rush, as a rookie, even if you're a highly drafted rookie, like I'll take my wins where I can get it. That's why I think it's so incredible that Dionne Walker's doing what he's doing as what, a fourth round pick. So, yeah, I mean, Mason, Graham has been fine. I was really excited about him like two, three weeks in, but it's kind of,

it seems like it's tapered off a little bit. So I, this is, this is one of those where beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. But I love, I love the Buccaneers shout because that's two bucks now. And we're not done talking about the bucks, by the way. So shout out Jason Light. It looks like you hit it out of the park, man. He is one of the best in the NFL at drafting. He just truly, if you go back and you look at the last, I would say, six draft classes that the Buccaneers have had, you just go, holy cow, how is he doing this? And it's just because before I worked at PFF, I worked at Peter Report covering the Buccaneers as a beat reporter. So I've gotten to talk to Jason and gotten to know him a little bit, just like as a dude. He loves football, man. I mean, he came up through

the scouting department with New England and the Arizona Cardinals before he got the GM gig with the Bucks and like, he just loves football. And he seeks out the true other guys who love football and there is a standard that you have to uphold when you're on a Buccaneers draft board and that is how that's on that's how you get Emekibuka in the first round when you absolutely had no wide receiver need at all whatsoever at the time you're just drafting the people who you think are just damn good football players and I think that will always uh play out if you let it to go long enough in the interest of saving a little bit of time you did say linebacker was pretty straightforward from yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna step out on

another limb. Although you've surprised me a couple times, though. So, all right. Carson Swettinger's here, right? I mean, we don't have to say, yeah, we don't have to say a whole lot about that. He's been phenomenal. Yes.

Is your other linebacker Jihad Campbell or somebody else? No, it's Campbell. It's definitely Campbell. That's what I figured. Yes, I don't know. I don't know how much we need to say. I just, I've said this on other shows.

Coverage is typically the hard part for linebackers and safety is, as well. Like just moving away from the football is the hard thing and what you really look for and like what separates the good players. Like most guys in the NFL can kick ass if they're just

flowing toward the line of scrimmage. What Jihad Campbell does in coverage is like this early in his career is it's just awesome. It's so cool. He's a stud. If not for that shoulder injury, he would have gone way higher in the draft and he is absolutely showing that already this year. And then Carson

Schweringer, it's just a play speed. Right. mean like his his recognition, his play speed was what stood out at UCLA. And it's still the same thing in Cleveland. They're again, they're pointing to his tape at UCLA. And they're saying, do that. You don't necessarily have to play like exactly how we want you to. We want you to play fast and free the way that you did when you were at UCLA. And he is.

That leaves us with five DBs to go through. And I'm curious for your take on this. So I kind of did the same thing I did on the offensive line where I wanted to, to identify like guys that fill their roles. You know, like I wanted like a couple outside corners. I wanted a slot defender. I wanted two safeties. Did you do that or did you just like grab your favorite 5 dbs?

I ended up having two slot defenders and one outside corner. But that's simply because like one of these players is the hybrid of all hybrids that just had to get named on this list, I think. I bet I know who you're going to. to mention, which is fun because if you're talking about who I think you're talking about, I left him off of mine, but we'll see. We'll see. All right.

Okay. Where do you want to start? I'm going to throw it like, just start wherever you want to. We got, we'll do three corners, two safeties. Let's start with corners. And we can start with Jacob Parrish if you want to. Yeah, I do want to start with Jacob Paris, Trevor, because he's awesome. He's so fun.

He was my choice for Nickelback. I just think it's so cool that they threw him in there from the word go. And he's just a little Tasmanian devil out there making everybody's life miserable. 431 snaps on the year. Like all eight games. And he has taken to what Todd Bowles likes to do with a vigor. You know, he's just flying in there making tackles. They use him as a blitzer.

He's awesome. He's so fun. He is somebody who it's very fun. because they had Tykee Smith in that slot role the previous season. And he was, you know, somebody who played safety when he was in college and then you move into the slot full time in the NFL. And he played it really, really well. Defended the run specifically really well near the line of scrimmage.

And when the talk was that they wanted to move Tykeye back to safety next to Antoine Winfield Jr. I was like, I don't know about that. Like, I just, there's so much value to when you can. defend the run that well with your nickel defender. I think that's something that gets very lost when it comes to scouting and projecting and putting guys in college on NFL teams. A lot of times it's like, oh, okay, like here's this corner who is smaller as an outside corner for NFL standards. Let's just kick him inside. Well, if he can't defend the run, you don't want to kick him

inside. You're close to the line scrimmage. You got to have people who are able to do that. And so when they talked about moving Tykeye back, I was very worried. Then they draft. after Jacob Parrish and I go, okay, I can see the vision here. But what's interesting enough is he's starting in the slot. He only had 200 snaps in the slot throughout his entire Kansas State career. And that's compared to almost 1,200 that he had as an out wide corner. He was an outside corner when he was at Kansas State. And they brought him in and not only did, like you said, from the jump, he's starting. He's starting at a slot spot that he did not start primarily at throughout any of his college career.

So he's been unbelievable. He defends the run just as well as Tykee Smith did. He's really feisty in coverage. And he's perfect for this DNA of what Todd Bull wants to do. Couldn't have said it better myself. And Tykee also handling that switch admirably, not that he's a rookie, but I've just, I've had a lot of fun watching the Tampa Bay defense. All right.

We both love Jacob Parrish. That's not really a surprise. Will Johnson has to be mentioned here, I would assume, or no. Ooh, I didn't have Will Johnson. And I actually went with Trey Amos instead. Okay, so let's talk about this because I went with both. Those were my two outside guys where I was like, okay, if I'm trying to build this thing like an actual defense, then I want my two guys that can play on the boundary and are doing like the prototypical corner things. And I know Will Johnson has played fewer games, but I just, I think they've both been like they both deserve mention here.

in my opinion. Yeah, I think both of these guys have been totally fine. I think that Will Johnson, you know, like with him having a little bit of injury and people were kind of like freaking out about that and him being a little bit down, I think to start the season, if I'm remembering correctly, like he's coming on just fine. Will Johnson is going to be great. When he was healthy in Michigan, he was one of the best corners. And to be honest, I kind of just went with Tramos because he's played 200 more coverage stamps. Like that's that's all it is. And that's part of it for me for sure was like that this guy's been doing it all year long. Yeah. Now, Will Johnson has a much higher run to defense grade than Treyamos does in our PFF system. And so like I could have had that hold a little

bit more weight. But when you look at coverage stuff, the coverage grades are pretty similar. It's right around 70.0. The forcing completions for Treyamos, he's got six forcing completions. That's 21.4%. Will Johnson has six. That's 22.2%. Will Johnson has that interception. But interceptions are, I think there's so much of an opportunistic thing most of the time. so I look much more on forced and completion. So both of these guys are kind of right there, but I just ended up going with Trey Amos because Amos is also in a situation where the commander's coverage group

is not good this year. He's doing a lot of lifting back there. And for your rookie to be the best coverage player on the team, I also gave him a little bit of a bump just sort of knowing that and how much Washington struggled. So if I'm reading your approach correct, All right. So I opted for like two outside guys and you opted for one. And did you use that space for your do everything demon player? Correct. I did. And am I reading your mind correctly that this is Nick Eminwari of the Seattle C Hawks?

This is absolutely going to be Nick Emanwari. And this is this is a little bit. It's funny because you sided with Will Johnson. You sided with Orronday Gaston. You sided with these guys who is like, okay, like sort of like and even. even Derek Harmon, right? These sort of like, hey, the highs are the best for these guys, and you're kind of leaning into that. And I've been a little bit more of a volume guy when it comes to the names that I've listed off here for this show. But Nikki Manwari specifically in a Mike McDonald defense, man. I just, I have to put this guy on the list.

Even if it was just for what was this past game where he was an absolute animal for them. And, you know, I, I, here's another, example of I was a little bit lower on Nikki Menwari as a whole than I think consensus was. I think I had him right around like 68th overall on my big board. And I recognized the alien athleticism, the versatility that he had. He could be a free, the possibility of his endless, right? He could be a free safety, a strong safety.

You could play him as a linebacker. You could play him in a slot, all of these things. But I got a little bit worried about him because his play in space was probably where I liked him the best, but sometimes he'd show a little bit of struggle with flipping the hips with him being a bigger defensive back. And so I take that into account with a free safety role for him. As a strong safety and as a linebacker when he was in South Carolina, he didn't love hitting as much as I kind of wanted him to if you're playing closer to line of scrimmage there. And then I liked his slot stuff, but I was like, yes, he's just going to be a full-time

slot guy in the NFL? I don't know. There's not a lot of defenses that I think would see him and play him as that type of a player. All that to say, We also did team-specific top 100 big boards last year where I would take certain players and obviously if I thought they were good fits for the scheme, the coaching staff, the roster, the team needs all that good stuff, they'd be a little bit higher or lower than maybe where I would have them independently on my big board. Nikki Manwari was highest of any team for the Seattle Seahawks specifically. I had him 26th overall for that team specifically because I trusted Mike McDonald to

play him in a way that was most advantageous. And very clearly, that is as a slot type of defender for them. So he has been, even in a small sample size, as advertised when getting into that defensive structure that Mike McDonald runs. It kind of reminds me of Tyler Warren where, like, my enthusiasm for a prospect can be buoyed so much by who drafts him. Because even, even Wari just scared me where I was like, yes, the freakishness is well noted, but is it going to translate in the scheme that he's playing in?

And like the minute somebody like Mike McDonald drafts him, it should be a flag on your radar that everything's probably going to be okay. I'll just, I'll be honest and I apologize to Seahawks fans. I left him off because he's played 185 snaps so far. Yeah, very fair. He's, you know, he got hurt quickly in week one. He's played basically three games. And listen, man, his performance against Houston was like taking pre-workout.

Like I could have just gone. I could have just run a marathon after watching him in that game. Like it was great. But I left him off because I want to see what six weeks looks like instead of three. That's all. You know, like I think he's wonderful. But it came down to that for me. All right.

So that leaves two more spots for safeties. Yes. I bet you we're going to agree that one of them goes to Xavier Watson, Atlanta. So I actually left Xavier Watts off. I keep expecting you to agree with me and you don't. Like I should stop leading you into these situations. This was so much tougher than I thought it was going to be. Because I love Xavier Watts.

I went into this exercise. That wasn't tough for me. I wrote Xavier Watts pretty quickly. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I mean, when he went in the third round, I was like, steal. No question about it. He's going to be fantastic. And he has, he has shown really good flashes and really good highs.

there were four players that I considered for this safety spot. Xavier Watch was one of them. Andrew McCuba was the other. Jonas Sanker for the New Orleans Saints and Craig Woodson for the New England Patriots. I think all four of these guys had different parts of their game within what was asked of them to do in their current defensive structure that you go, yeah, you're doing that really well and some of the other stuff. Okay, maybe you're struggling a little bit here, but this was way tougher than I thought

it was going to be. And to be honest with you, I thought you were going to pick Xavier Watts, so I knew he would get the recognition. So I went with two other guys to maybe give them a little bit of added recognition. Okay. So you outlined the four. Who did who did you opt for? I went with Andrew McCuba's one because the play speed of Andrew McCuba just continues to amaze me. I loved it so much of when he was playing at Texas, how quickly he was able to recognize things, but also get to the location that he needed to. He still looks just as fast in an NFL uniform and what he is doing for the Philadelphia Eagles.

He is flying down and run defense. He struggles a little bit in man coverage against bigger tight ends because he is a smaller, more slender safety. But there's so much of what he brings to the table. They ask him to do a lot. They ask him to come down from depth and be a sure tackler, which he continues to do. And so Andrew McCuba is one of them.

And then I actually went with Jonas Sanker, as the other one. My other, I went with Jonas Sanker on the other one too. And I'll be honest, I'll be honest with you, Trev. I mean,

like he's, he's a good player. I, like all these guys are good. I opted for Sanker because I was like, what, like, what else do we need to say about the Eagles?

Like the Eagles have all these guys like, macuba's on, even if the Eagles defense isn't what we think it is. Sure. Like, what we hoped it could be like the Eagles defense is plenty good. They got all these guys. They play in all these prime time.

games. I chose Jonas Sanker mainly because let's talk about something positive for the New Orleans Saints, which is that this, you know, third round safety that they drafted is playing pretty well on a team that nobody gives a shit about right now. Like that's what it came down to for me. They have him playing in the strong safety role. So when you're in cover three situations, they're buzzing him down and he's playing either as a robber or he's playing a more shallow zone. But then they also, when they go to man, they're lining him up. against tight ends. And specifically, that's actually what put him over the edge for me to name him in one of

these spots is he's had some really impressive reps in man coverage against tight ends this season with past breakups and just giving up no separation and affecting the catch point along with, you know, there have been times when, okay, he's outran the play and didn't take the right pursuit angle. But that's sort of just being a safety. You know that you're going to have those plays. and it's not going to be perfect every single game, especially when you're a rookie.

But those coverage reps of him and man coverage against a tight end, I think are very, very difficult to do. And he's had some really high moments doing that. And then I just think that he is playing that robber over the middle role very aggressively and very confidently to where I wanted to give him a shout out here on this show. I'm a sucker for guys who are going to be playing what? I mean, Yonis Sanker, of course, I can't get it to pull up right now. but like Jonas Sanger is going to play like 16 of his 17 games at noon on a Sunday.

And unless he does something nuts like pick off Josh Allen, which he did by the way, uh, he'd like nobody's going to know that he's doing it at all outside of Saints fans. Nobody's going to know that it's happening. So Andrew McCuba is having, he's having a great season. I love where he's at. But I'm like, yeah, let's let's talk about this guy instead because we're going to see the Eagles in prime time like four more times this year.

The important part about safety, and I went into this podcast thinking this, was that I at least said the names of the four guys that I agonized over before I sent your producer the list. And so as long as we did that, I'm fine with how it all ended up. I think that's perfectly put. Like, yeah, the goal here was really just to highlight as many guys we like as possible. But, you know, if you want to get mad at me because Nick Eminwari didn't win midpoint safety of the year, rookie safety of the year, that's fine. I bet you, I bet you he'll. be on my list by November if I had to guess. Yeah. Yeah. If he keeps it up, he absolutely will. There's no question. Trev, this was a ton of fun, man. I really appreciate it. Love talking ball with you. Thanks for stopping then. We'll be, we'll absolutely be sure to check in with you soon, man. Take care. Dave, you're the man. I appreciate you having me on. This is a ton of fun. And yeah, man, we'll talk soon. Thanks again to Trevor for stopping by. We will be back to our regular programming starting next week. Don't worry, Dane didn't go anywhere. And starting on Wednesday, we will be done.

diving back into all things college football, all things, 2026 draft class. Make sure you check it out. I appreciate it as always. We'll talk to you all soon.