The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Calvin Johnson on why Matthew Stafford is different, 10 players who define Super Bowl LVI & the staying power of Andrew Whitworth with Clint Boling

Episode Date: February 9, 2022

Few players know QB Matthew Stafford more intimately on the field than Pro Football Hall of Fame wide receiver Calvin Johnson. Together, Stafford and Johnson put up historic numbers. Now, Stafford is putting up historic numbers with Rams WR Cooper Kupp. But what makes Stafford so unique for wide receivers, and which current receivers are catching his eye? Megatron joins Robert Mays following a breakdown of the 10 players that will define Super Bowl LVI for Lindsay Jones and Robert + Clint Boling, former Bengals guard stops by to share some first-hand insight on the 40-year old Rams tackle Andrew Whitworth & his incredible run with Cincinnati.10 Players to define SB LVI: 0:00 - 50:00Calvin Johnson: 50:00Clint Boling: 1:10:00 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Wednesday, February 9th. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. Calvin Johnson, Hall of Fame receiver, Calvin Johnson, is going to be joining us a little bit later. Really enjoyed our conversation. We did it early in the morning.

It was a great way to start my day yesterday. So I very much appreciated that. Former Bengals Guard Clint Bowling is also going to be joining us a little bit later on today's show. play with Andrew Whitworth for a long time, very close to him, thought that he could provide some great context on just that era Bengals football, what Andrew Whitworth was for that team in that moment, really excited about our conversation with Clint. Before we do that, though, I'm thrilled to welcome my good friend, Lindsay Jones. Lindsay, how you doing? I'm great, Robert. By the time this podcast post, I will be in Los Angeles with you. I'm really excited to get there. I'm just finishing up some stuff up here in Denver and we'll be on my way to L.A. this afternoon. I cannot wait to see you. It's a fun week. We're really digging into all of this. We have a ton of different flavors of shows this week. Obviously, if you guys listen to the Tuesday show with Seth Kalina, Deonte Lee and Ali Connolly, very X's and O's heavy kind of big picture how we arrived at this moment schematically. Today, I wanted to dig into the players and not really what they're going to look like in these matchups.

We're going to talk a lot about that in our preview episode that's going to run on Friday. I want to take a step back and talk about the 10 players. We thought. kind of define this game just in terms of the stories that we're watching. You know, what it means for these guys? What's at stake? So we're going to do the 10 players who define this Super Bowl. No quarterbacks. We're going to have enough quarterback talk.

They would talk ad nauseum about quarterbacks all week. So that was the only rule. But other than that, we're going to hit, you know, the guys that are just on our minds this week for one reason or another. We did this last year. We really enjoyed it. So we're going to run it back again. Lindsay, why don't you start us off?

Who is like the first guy that you want to? wanted to talk about as part of this. Sure. And I'll say, this is the stuff I love because, you know, there are so many like interesting matchups and stuff. But this is the time of year where especially in these last two seasons where we haven't had the face time with the players as much, now we get to really know some of these guys. And there's a lot of like legacy issues that we're going to be talking about with, with guys

in the team. So I wanted to so I wanted to start with Von Miller. And if anybody has followed me for a long time, that shouldn't be a surprise. obviously I'm here in Denver and that's been a big part of kind of his story. But playoff Vaughn is like a whole different animal. And we've already seen that so far for what he's done for the Rams this postseason. I think if we would have talked about that trade in early December, it was maybe different. You'd say, was it worth it?

Are the Rams getting what they wanted out of him? You weren't really seeing that. And then all of a sudden, the calendar flipped to January. And Vaughn has been playing at this different level. And, you know, he had a monster game against the Cardinals in the wild card game. He, you know, terrorized the hell out of Tom Brady, as he tends to do in the playoffs, a little bit quieter in the NFC championship game. But if the Rams end up winning this game, it seems like, it seems fairly likely to me that

Von Miller will have played a big role in that game. So I think this is a lot of legacy here. He won a Super Bowl MVP exactly six years ago this week when he was playing with the Broncos when he had one of the most singularly dominant defensive performances that we've seen in a Super Bowl. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that he'll have, you know, two strip sacks, you know, one of which that is recovered for a fumble or recovered by a teammate for a touchdown. You know, I think that's maybe unreasonable. But this is a guy who actually knows what it takes to win on this stage. And while the ramps have been really successful over the last, you know, three or four years of the Sean McBay era,

there's not a lot of guys that have actually done that, that have been here in this game and won. So that's why I think that Von Miller's on field presence and certainly his leadership is going to be really important this week. I also think even beyond Von Miller's career and what another Super Bowl would mean for that, I think he's a Hall of Fame, right? Like, Von Miller is going to the Hall of Fame.

He's one of the best defensive players of his era. That Super Bowl stretch is just so memorable. It's really hard to kind of own a Super Bowl as a defensive player. and he did, you know, that Broncos defense for that stretch was really defining unit of that era in so many ways. For me, he's just emblematic of the Rams thought process. You know, this season and what it was about for them, you know, we'll have that conversation with Jordan a little bit later this week about Matthew Stafford and the trade and just the mindset that has kind of permeated this franchise over the last several years. But going and making that trade for Von Miller, you don't make that for December, kind of like you alluded to. You make that for a terrorizing Tom Brady game in the divisional round.

You make it for a sack and a half in the Super Bowl when it's these moments. It's for these moments. You do it to finish off whatever this project, whatever this journey pursuit has been for the ramps. And I think that's what he is. That's what he represents. This is a guy in his 30s who they traded multiple picks for that's going to be a free agent at the end of the year. It's a gamble. These are not no-brainer decisions.

that they made to go out and get some of these guys. I mean, you could look at the roster that they had, even when they signed O'Do Beckham, who we're going to talk about. And even that is in a, oh, yeah, absolutely, they should have done that. It was a surprise team in the running for him because it didn't necessarily make the most sense.

In a post-Rober Woods world, it worked out extremely well. And I think it's one of the reasons that the Rams are here, but just the way that they have done this and said, we're just going to gobble up every single bit of veteran talent we can whenever it's available. And I was looking back at some of the teams that they had in previous years, and you forget that they had in Dominican Sue and they traded for Marcus Peters and they traded for Akeep Tili. I mean, this is something they've done consistently.

And now Von Miller is just the latest version of that, but he's the version that could have finally get them over the top and get them where they want to go in this pursuit. And in that kind of vein, talking about finally getting over the top, the first guy I wanted to talk about is Aaron Donald. and Jordan wrote a story, Jordan Roderick, I keep calling her by her first name because I assume people know at this point. Jordan Roder wrote a story last week about... She needs only one name. Yeah, she does. Jordan Roder wrote a story last week about how this is it for Aaron Donald. This is the last thing.

And it really is the last thing. It's so easy when you have someone like Aaron Donald who is so mindlessly good, just so good that it's almost hard to appreciate how good he is because the consistency makes our eyes glaze over. It's similar to how I would react to Tom Brady in certain moments. It's like, oh, yeah, of course Tom Brady is great. And if you look at Aaron Donald, I just want to read off some numbers here, okay? So Aaron Donald has played eight seasons in the NFL. He has been in first team all pro selection seven times in those eight seasons. Only three guys in NFL history have done it more in their first eight years.

Those three guys are Bruce Smith, Lawrence Taylor, and Reggie White. All those guys had eight. The only other guys was seven in the Super Bowl era. are Ray Lewis, Randy White, and Mike Singletary. Aaron Donald is one of the greatest players in NFL history. What he has done in his first eight seasons is unmatched at the position. He has 98 sacks in his first eight seasons. That's tied for the sixth most in the Super Bowl era.

That's a half sack less than Lawrence Taylor had. It's the same number as Von Miller had and the same number as Derek Thomas had in their first eight season. Aaron Donald is a defensive tackle. It's fucking ridiculous. It's absolutely insane what he has accomplished. Every single year, he's probably the best player in the NFL. We can make an argument for somebody else. But in terms of the way that guys stack up to everyone at their position,

where they relate to their peers, that's the metric and the standard we want to use. He's been the best player in the league for a long time. And this is it. This is the only thing that's missing. This is the only thing that's missing from one of the best resumes we've ever seen for a defensive player. If he wins a Super Bowl, it's the feather in the cap in what has been a remarkable career. Just something that is so hard to match and a standard that's so difficult to get to.

If he does it this year, and you put that as kind of the last line in the resume, you can make an argument that he's probably already at age 30, one of the five best defensive players in the history of the league. And that's kind of crazy. but I think it's important to kind of sit in that because it's so, so easy to take him for granted in everything that he is. And with how many stars they have elsewhere on the team, you do kind of sometimes you can forget about him or just like the sustained level of greatness. And I've mentioned this on this podcast before and you've laughed at me and called me a nerd because when I go to Rams games, I pull out my binoculars and I just watch Aaron Donald. I sit there in the press box with my binoculars just on him because when you're watching live and you have that all 22 view from a press box.

sometimes it can get lost. And on TV does not do him justice. The television view of games does not do what Aaron Donald does. You just, you can't truly appreciate it unless you're like watching him intently on every single snap. And this game in particular, I'm going to be watching him very, very closely. And I know later in this week, you're going to get into a lot of the matchup stuff. But when we're talking about strengths and weaknesses and vulnerabilities and how can the Rams attack that Bengals offense, it's through the interior of that Cincinnati Bengals offensive line. So this game certainly has the makings of a game where Aaron Donald could just destroy the game. And I think that we overuse that with guys. Aaron Donald is a game rocker. He's going to

destroy this game. But that's just what he does. And he certainly has the potential to do that this game. And I'm just really excited to watch it. And I fear for those Bengals cars. It's going to be, we'll get into kind of the specifics of that matchup a little bit later in week, but I totally agree. And it's going to be one of the fun parts of being there is that you can watch them every single play. You do have that man to do it. You can tweet a picture of me sitting there with my binoculars and I certainly will. It's fun because, you know, Aaron Donald, the Rams practices are set up in Thousand Oaks. You get really close during training camp when you're there. It's just real kind of up close and personal. You can watch them do drills and their defensive line drills are kind of set off behind

the field near where the little media tent is. And it's a small like silly thing. But, you know, But there was a moment this summer. I was just watching him go through drills. And he's probably the greatest player that's not a quarterback, even with quarterbacks. He's probably the greatest player who has started his career since I started doing this. So I've watched his entire career. And I was sitting there watching him do drills. And it's like, you forget that he's just truly one of the greatest players of all time.

And to watch him go through that, you have to appreciate that in those moments. And I think I'm saying this almost to remind myself as much as I'm saying it. to remind other people that it's really worth remembering how great this guy is in the context of the grand history of the NFL. Well, I'll say the coolest day of my career, I think, or one of the coolest things I've ever done was when I went to Von Miller's Pass Rush Summit a few years ago and watched Aaron Donald go through his highlight tape to show all of these other. And it was like the elite of the elite pass rushers, you know, it was Cam Jordan and Frank

Clark and Melvin Ingram. And like, it was like legit dudes. And they just sat there in awe. They watch Aaron Donald the way that we watch Aaron Donald, which I just thought was one of the coolest things. Just hearing coaches talk about it. I mean, just like the reverence and the tone is so different. And yeah, there's just a smile on my face. Watching him on that stage is going to be really, really cool.

I'm excited to do it again. All right. Who's your next one? All right. So let's talk more legacy stuff here of like the big picture what's at stake for a guy. And that's Andrew Whitworth. This is the Andrew Whitworth Bull. Like, it's wild.

It's kind of crazy. Yeah, he spent the majority of his career playing for the Cincinnati Bengals, you know, for the times when the Bengals were bad. He was there on those Bengals teams that were really good but never won, you know, all of those Marvin Lewis years where they would make the playoffs and then get bounced in the wild card round. All those years, they never won a game. And then kind of came to L.A. as one of Sean McVeigh's first signings, a guy who is going to be. be kind of like a culture setter, you know, a guy who was going to, you know, teach the young guys how to do things the right way. And you kind of thought, okay, maybe he'll be here for a year, right? And here we are four years later, age 40. Andrew Whitworth and I are the same age. And I barely,

like, walk up and down my stairs. I, like, had to have my husband help me load the dishwasher the other night because I couldn't bend over. And here he is starting playing left tackle in the Super Bowl. And it's been a rough go for him lately. You know, he's dealt with some injuries at the later part of the season and in the postseason. But this is going to be a huge game. I mean, the Bengals have some pretty good pass rushers. It's going to be, it's not going to be an easy matchup for him. But it would be a hell of a story if Andrew Weirth would be able to win a Super Bowl,

retire at age 40, kind of ride off into the sunset, because most players don't get that sort of ending. But he's going to be a hugely important player to this game, but also potentially a really great story coming out of this game. It's so funny that you say that about that maybe he's, be there for a year or two years because I was thinking the same thing this morning. I was like, I can't believe that they bring him in as this guy to, all right, let's, you know, get a veteran presence in the room.

Let's have this guy be a stabilizing force for us. And then five years in, he's still on the team. And he's still playing at a relatively high level when he was healthy. So I remember after the 2018 Super Bowl and where were you, Atlanta? Atlanta. So we're in the balls of the stadium in Atlanta. and the Super Bowl access afterwards is interesting. The guys are all at podiums,

but you can really sit there and ask them a question because they're all going at the same time. And I asked him, you know, knowing that his retirement could kind of be hanging in the air there, did it make the loss hurt worse, knowing that he got this close and it might not happen again? And he told me, he said, you're always upset.

Anytime you have an opportunity to win a championship like this and win Lombardi, obviously everybody wants that opportunity to win one of those who plays this game with loves football. I'm disappointed, but man, I played 13 years. I played almost 13,000 snaps of NFL football. I love the game. I love every bit of it.

You're not going to get me to pout and feel sorry for myself. I realize what this game means. I cherish the crap out of it. I don't give a crap you've got a Hall of Fame bust if you've been a pro bowl or 120 Super Bowls. At the end of the day, we're all going to die. And you won't have the opportunity to play football. Who you are, how you carry yourself.

Whether you pout and feel sorry for yourself is the only thing that's going to matter. That's what people are going to remember about you. For me, what means the most is the guys who see me hold my head high. They see me confident in love, loving them in any way I can be moving forward. And I sat there when he said that and I was like, holy shit. And it's kind of an interesting moment in that afterglow of the Super Bowl win or lose, how reflective guys get because of how much it means to them. And the fact that five years later, four years later, he's in this position again with a chance to do it.

When I asked him that question, I just never assumed this would be possible. I never thought that this chance would come for him again this late in his career. And what's so fascinating to me is that he's been so many different things throughout his career. You know, early on, he gets drafted as a second round offensive tackle, which the track record for guys at that position drafted in that range is kind of spotty. Willie Anderson was there when he first got there, so he kind of played a couple different positions. And then I remember in 2012, I did a series for Grantland.

It was like the all-22 All-Stars. It was guys that were I thought were underrated players that didn't get enough recognition. And Andrew Whitworth was on there. You know, he was like a 30-year-old guy that bounced between playing guard and tackle and was a really good player for those Bengals teams. And then now he's just this different sort of figure, both for the Rams and in the league, is this elder statesman of the NFL. And it's just watching all of those different chapters in his career and kind of culminating in this potential moment of him. I would assume riding off if they win in Super Bowl. I just never thought this would be here.

And the fact that he's still playing at this level, you know, we had this discussion with Nate earlier in the season about whether what he's doing is as or more impressive than what Tom Brady's doing. And I genuinely believe that it is. It's right in the same conversation. Unlike a snap to snap basis. Yes. What he's doing is incredibly impressive and difficult.

Yeah. It's to watch Andrew Whitworth win a Super Bowl of 40. when I was sitting there when he was 31 being like, this guy's kind of underrated. Like we should appreciate him a little bit more. And him hitting free agency at 35. And just the overall trajectory and path of his career is so unique. And I've really appreciated it.

And again, him culminating, it all culminating in this moment would be a really, really great period at the end of the story. And we don't have, the NFL will announce their Walter Payton Man of the Year award on Thursday night. They no longer announced finalists for that. there's no longer like the three guys that are finalists. If there were, I imagine he would be one of the finalists.

Like he is the Rams nominee. I think he is as worthy of a candidate for that award as well. And so the fact that the Super Bowl is here in L.A. where he and his family have just kind of when they arrived four years ago, just took over in terms of making themselves at home here and doing just really tremendous work in the community. And I'll say when we talk about in context of this game, his relationship with Joe Burrow is really interesting.

too. Yeah. And it's kind of just an interesting subtext. Yeah. So there are two LSU guys. And last year when Joe Burrow was hurt and was rehabbing from his ACL injury, he was doing that in Los Angeles because of where his doctors were. And to LSU guys, Andrew Whitworth invited him over. Joe Burrow spent a whole bunch of time at Whitworth's house.

They watched a lot of football together. They hung out a lot. I think Joe Burroughs said he spent two birthdays there, his birthday and Andrew's birthday. at the Whitworth House. And I think Whitworth tried to keep it a little underwaps, but I think he told him a lot about how the Bengals operate and what to know about living in Cincinnati and playing in Cincinnati.

And clearly Joe Burroughs had kind of this a little bit of a different level of success in Cincinnati than Whitworth ever experienced. But it's just, it's like an extra little subplot. There's a whole lot of LSU stuff going on in this game with Odo Beckham, who we'll also get to a little later. All right. let's stick to the Rams. We're going to get to some Bengals here, I promise.

I want to talk about Cooper Cup because when we mentioned guys that where it's easy to kind of say, you know, this is how it is. That's how he's played. I want to appreciate what Cooper Cup has done this season. Because I remember in 2009 watching those playoffs and just being blown away by Larry Fitzgerald. You watched him in that three game, four game run he had on the way to almost winning a Super Bowl. And I came away from that run thinking, I think that's the best player in the, league? That's how it felt watching Larry Fitzgerald during that stretch. If Cooper Cup

has 160 receiving yards in the Super Bowl, which is not out of the realm of possibility at all when you've considered his season, he will break Larry Fitzgerald's record for the most receiving yards in a four-game playoff series. With like 55

yards, he moves in his second place all time. And you tack that on to the regular season that he's had. He already has the most yards ever in a regular and postseason combined in the history of the week. One more game, but I mean, he's blown it away by so much with one game left to play that it's impressive no matter how many games he's played. And it's, he's had a historic season. I mean, what he is doing right now is kind of unprecedented in the history of the NFL.

And to cap that off in the same way that Larry Fitzgerald almost did, if he can kind of win the game at the end in the way that Larry Fitzgerald didn't, I mean, we're looking at the greatest season potentially a wide receiver has ever had. I mean, up there with stuff that Jerry Rice has done. And I just think that it's important to appreciate that. Watching those stat lines and 11 yards for 11 catches for 167 yards and two touchdowns, like you did the NFC championship game, it's easy to be like, okay, you know, it's Cooper Cup. That's ho-hum. That's insane. And it was like a casual stat line. There were hard. There weren't a ton of moments we were like, oh, shit, there goes Cooper Cup again. There was like a one, I think he had like a 25 yard in the

fourth quarter where we were like, oh, they probably should have covered him. But it wasn't like this like flashy. He just does it every quarter of every game for 21 weeks now going on. I guess this would be 21, right? I mean, it's just, it's wild. And like you long time listening to this pod know how I feel about Cooper Cup. He got my offensive player the year award vote. That'll also be announced Thursday night. So we'll see if he has officially won that. Our good friend Bill Barnwell re-did a MVP poll this week on Twitter and Cooper Cup won. I mean, it's, I understand it. Like, it's kind of silly, but I understand it.

Over the last two games, this is the playoffs. These are the best teams in the league that he's playing against. Over the last two games, he has 20 catches for 365 yards and three touchdowns. That's insane. It is unbelievable to put up those sort of video game numbers against a defense that was playing as well as the Niners defense was coming into that. game. And if he can do that again, if he can have a game that's right up there with the game he had against San Francisco, with the game he had against the Bucks, again, I mean, we're looking at one of the

greatest stretches of receiver play that we have ever seen in the history of the league. Well, and we're going to get into some of the Bengals defensive players here in just a second, but I've been, you know, getting on a lot of the Zooms over the last like six to eight weeks or so with coaches, defensive players just around the league as you kind of get ready for playoff stuff. And without fail, every week. defensive coordinators and defensive backs get asked, so what's your answer for Cooper Cup? What do you do with him?

And everybody's like, well, you just got to make sure you have a plan for him and you got to cover him because nobody knows. We're five months into this season and nobody has figured out a response for what you do with Cooper Cup. And it's going to be a huge challenge for the Bengals this week. So do you want to get into some of those Bengals? Let's do it. Let's do it.

Kick us off here. All right. Well, since we were talking about receivers and DBs and stuff, let's talk about Jesse. Bates, a little bit of free safety from the Cincinnati Bengals. He's been a really interesting player to me this year. I remember we talked about the Bengals a lot in the preseason and what sort of defense were they going to have and which players were going to be really important. And there's also been a lot of talk about how they've built this team, how they've gone out

and spent money in ways that they haven't before. They've gone out and got pre-agent, gotten free agents. But Jesse Bates is one of their kind of homegrown players. One of the only ones. Him and Sam Hubbard and Logan Wilson. That's like it. Which is wild, right? And so, you know, when you talk about guys that we're going to be talking about that I think we'll have an impact, I think Jesse Bates will have an impact in this game or he needs to have an impact on this game for the Bengals to win. And then you talk about what does this mean going forward? The Bengals are going to have a huge decision to face on this guy because they haven't wanted to spend a ton of money to resign their own free agents. Would they potentially use the franchise tag on him?

Or will they let him go and try to bring in kind of some new blood in free agency? So I think there's a lot of really kind of interesting layers when we're talking about a guy like Jesse Bates. And for me, the discussion on him goes back to we knew going into the season that this was going to be a contract year for him. He had had contract negotiations with the team before this year didn't end up getting a new deal done. So this was kind of a true contract year for him. And it wasn't great. He was not their best defensive player and certainly not their best defensive back for much of the season. But kind of like Von Miller, we talked about, something has happened for him in the playoffs, where he has made critical plays in every postseason game so far for the Bengals.

And they're going to need that this week when they're playing against a team that is as explosive a wide receiver as the Rams are. So is that, you know, tipping a ball and getting interception. I mean, he had an interception against Ryan Tanhill in the wild card game that really kind of set the tone for that Bengals defense. or performance when it was predicated on turnovers, right? They've got to do that. And the Rams are prone to making those sorts of mistakes. So he, to me,

is maybe the one defensive back that I am focused most on, even though there's going to be some really interesting, I think, cornerback matchups that maybe you're going to want to talk about as well. I mean, I think that you look at what he's done in the postseason. And it's kind of funny because he was the lead defensive player on this team for a couple of years.

You know, when this defense was really struggling and they, struggle to find other pieces. It was always, well, Jesse Bates is pretty good. And now, as the other guys have kind of come on, he went to the background. You know, he kind of shifted into the shadows a little bit over the course of the regular season. And he's had a huge play in every game.

I mean, obviously, you have the interception against Tennessee. But he makes that interception that Von Bell finishes off late in the game against the Chiefs. I mean, that's him just doing an incredible job with a ton of range from the post, which is what he's always been, right? That is what his strength is, is playing in the post and making place from that position. He did it on the pick against Tennessee. He did it on the interception against the Chiefs.

I mean, his ability to kind of play downhill and play sideline to sideline from that spot has been one of the more consistent parts of this defense over the last few years. And kind of seeing that come through in the biggest moments, it's been absolutely huge for them. So the two guys I wanted to talk about in that same position group are Von Bell and Cid and Chiodobeye Wuzier. And the reason I want to talk about them is like you mentioned when we did. discuss the way that this defense has been constructed. They're number one, or excuse me, they're a top three team in the NFL in spending against the cap on defense.

We've talked about that. But that's kind of misleading because Trey Wains is taking up like $15 million of the salary cap this year and doesn't play for this team. So when you look at some of the other guys that they've signed, I think it's such an interesting telling range to look for players specifically at these positions. So if you look at the Von Bell contract, these. is cap it is $5.5 million this year. That's 15th among safeties in 2021.

When we talk about free agency, a lot of the time, it's paying top five money to marginal players. And that's not what that bond-bell contract looks like. He was always a solid player in New Orleans. And if you listen to the show we did with Ali Connolly on Tuesday, he's been a huge part of the way that they can disguise things. I mean, he's kind of an epicenter and focal point that everything else revolves around, this defense, and he's doing it for a pretty marginal salary when you consider that he's a free agent. Chidobey Ousier, $6 million cap hit in 2021. That's 23rd among cornerbacks. Mike Hilton, 27th among cornerbacks at around $5 million. And I think it's really difficult

to build a team through free agency. It just is. The degree of difficulty is higher. You're paying a premium for these guys. It's not easy to pull off. But what they have done, especially in the secondary. We talked about this a little bit with Barnwall and A last week. It reminds me what the Bills did, with the Poyer contract, with the Hyde contract.

The bill's organizational philosophy is we're going to use free agency to plug holes. That's what we're going to do. We're not going to take big swings on the most expensive players. They never did that. So it kind of feels like the Bengals strategy this year. Obviously the Hendrickson contract is pretty sizable.

But other than that, they went away from the Trey Wayne's type deals and they said, we just want functional players in these spots that we can rely on veteran guys that we think are going to be solid, rock solid foundational pieces that we can just, they're not going to make mistakes. And that's exactly what those guys were. And I think that using that is kind of a baseline for what types of players you'd be looking for for agency and how you can use the flexibility of a rookie contract. If you look at their offense, Burrow, Higgins, Chase, all on rookie deals,

all bargains for what they produce. And I think the way they use that excess of money and that financial flexibility to remake the defense with these types of players is brought them to this point. If they don't do that, they are not playing in the Super Bowl. Their defense is what's carried them through the playoffs. And you look at it, they got like $60 million in cap space next year. That Trey Wayne's contract comes off the books.

The offense is really cheap. They need to do some addressing of the offensive line. But there's absolutely a world where they can bring Jesse. Bates back and have this entire group intact next year because they have the flexibility to do it. It's been really interesting to watch the way that they just keep swinging at defensive backs through consecutive off seasons. And I will admit that I was pretty critical of that strategy. We have to do these kind of free agency grades, grade the move basically as soon as it happens. And in 2020 especially, I was like, I don't know what they're doing.

This is a lot. And the Trey Wayne's contract, I think on its face was pretty obvious that this is a bad idea. This is a guy who didn't seem to earn that money in Minnesota. Struggle to stay healthy, very grabby. I mean, it's a big swing that did not work out. And these are moderate swings that did. Yeah, but they, you know, they took a big swing. It didn't work. And they just went right back at it. And they said, okay, we got to find some other guys. And Wuzi A has been a huge hit. You know, Mike Hilton was kind of a late addition to that group. I think this, you know, I think this, a lot of people in Pittsburgh were really surprised that the Steelers let Mike Hilton go. They were able to sign Mike Hilton. Even Eli Apple, who has been a complete wildcard. I mean, he's a guy who will probably be hearing Eli Apple's name in this game for good or for bad. You know, he gives up a lot of plays, some defensive pass interference.

But he has, especially in the playoffs lately, has come up with really important, crucial plays in these games. I mean, that tackle on Tyree Kill right before halftime in the AFC championship game, potentially got the Bengals here. I mean, right, that could have been the difference in the game. So, you know, just these guys. that they just keep on bringing in guys who nobody else wanted maybe or guys anybody could have had at the very least anybody could have had them for these prices and I think the idea of

let's get Chidobia Woozier, Mike Hilton and E.Y. Apple for 75% of what it costs for one Trey Waynes I think is a really important shift in thinking and I think again it's been critical in them making this happen. All right. Who's your next one? All right. I'm going to do one more Bengals defender, and that's Trey Hendrickson, a guy that they did spend a lot of money on. And a guy went, you know, this was a very pro Carl Lawson podcast still will be moving into 2022. But, you know, when we were like, like, if you rewind us back to March and going, I can't believe the Bengals are going to let Carl Lawson go. And they're giving how much money to Trey Hendrickson, you know, a guy who is kind of a complimentary piece

was, you know, very productive and disruptive last year. in New Orleans, but it's kind of hard to believe that, you know, Trey Henderson is the guy that you're going to build your pass rush around. And he's been really freaking good. And playoff Trey has been awesome. I think he's at, sorry, I lost my document here. So far in this postseason, two and a half sacks, four quarterback hits, a tackle for a loss against the chiefs, just consistently disruptive. And I don't know if any of us could have predicted that he would have that sort of impact on a week-to-week basis. So he's emblematic, I think, of the Bengals approach, how they got here.

Make sure you go read Paul Dana's story if you haven't yet about kind of the Bengals scouting process in their front office. We're going to talk a lot about that with Paul's on the show tomorrow. I mean, that's like, I find it fascinating. It's so interesting. But so I just think Hendrickson is really kind of emblematic their process and the way that they look for guys where they decide they're going to spend their money. And they're going to need him to be really productive in this game.

They're going to need him to get after Matthew Stappard. And they're not going to, they can't do exotic bliss packages, right? Because Stafford will destroy them probably if they try to bring a lot. So they're front four, Hendrickson, Sam Hubbard, DJ Reeder. Those guys are just going to have to win, win up front, right? And that's why he's a guy that I'm going to be watching really closely. I was very wrong about what sort of impact Trey Hendrickson would have. And this is a conversation we've had.

I was having it at the Senior Bowl at dinner. We were talking about just what we should be looking at. for in this era and with past rushers. And, you know, I'm guilty of this. I want one of those bendy guys who's just super flexible, super athletic, explosive. Give me a Von Miller or a Brian Burns, those guys all day. Like, those are the ones that I just, I don't know, I'm biased toward that sort of player, that style of pass rusher. And you can understand why, right? Like, there's just a sexiness to the way that those guys play. And with Troy Henderson, there's not. He's got, he's a power player.

Headline, Robert May says, Trey Hendrickson is not sexy. Got it. He's, he's a power guy, right? He's going to put his head in your chest. He's going to play straight through you most plays. And he's going to have a little tiny counters off of that.

But I think the most important thing with guys that play that way that are power-based rushers, their floor is really high. If you're a high effort player and you can play through a guy, you're always going to be able to impact the game. The floor is so much lower with bendy guys that never find that power aspect to their game. And I think that in a world where you're trying to, one, keep these quarterbacks in the pocket, these play extending guys who can torch you, and two, I guess three-fold, three-fold, one, that, two, ball's getting out quick. Ball's getting out really quick in a lot of these situations.

Bend in the corner is not always the easiest way to influence the quarterback because the fastest direction to him is in a straight line. So if you can play through it and affect the pocket, you can affect the game in ways that some of these bendy rushers can't. And three, can you affect the pocket quickly because you can't blitz? As we get into this world where all of these really, really good quarterbacks, think of the guys who are still playing or we're even playing last weekend. Joe Burrow, Matthew Stafford, Patrick Mahomes. Teams don't even try to blitz them anymore because of how much they can burn you. You need a front forward that can affect the game. And it's not about sacking the quarterback all the time.

It's just about affecting him. And Trey Hendrickson consistently does that. And I think that watching him, I've kind of had to beat my head where it's like, all right, rethink this. Like these types of guys really do have an impact on the game. And you have to be more open-minded as to how they'll look when you drop them into a given situation. And I think that's why I just didn't project the sort of impact that Trey Hendrickson would have because he's not a Bosa. He's not, he doesn't play like that. The game is much more of like a street fright brawl.

type guy, but those guys have real value. And I think that he has shown that. Yeah. And I just like how their front floor really works together. Totally. And, you know, Sam Hubbard is kind of a similar kind of guy. If you look at their mock draftable pages, they're like two of the most similar players that have come out of the draft in years. They're like the Spider-Man meme.

In physical profile. Yeah. It's kind of crazy, which is I don't think is an accident by any means. So, yeah. So I'm excited to watch that front four. Who you got next? Jamar Chase, I just When you just think about what he represents

And again, it's one of those moments where you kind of step back It's like, all right, where are we as a league? You know, what do you need to win? What are the necessary components of being one of these teams who's in and at the end? And having one of those guys who just destroys every single matchup Who just changes the math and changes the way that your defense has to allocate And, you know, we're constantly worried about him. And just what that does for an all-

offense. He is that. And, you know, I don't think there are that many Jamar Chase's coming out, but, you know, Justin Jefferson was that a couple years ago who's been wandering around today. And, you know, these guys that don't necessarily look like all pro receivers. And I think that's one of the biggest lessons with Jamar Chase is that, you know, he's only 6'1, but he, the body control and the way that he's built and this is fuel for the position. It just, it seems like we really are in this golden age where you don't need to look like Julio Jones or Calvin. Johnson to be a first team all pro receiver and really dominate the game because of how much nuance and understanding there is for how to affect the game at that position.

And I think that he's an example of that. On top, he is a crazy athlete, but he's not put in the frame and the packaging that some of those other guys are in. And he's just another one of those guys. The Bengals aren't in this game without Jamar Chase. Like, it's their offensive line is still a disaster. And I think that there's an argument for them going that direction. but what he's been for them is pretty irreplaceable.

And he's definitely somebody who's kind of sent me back to the drawing board a little bit when it comes to the way I think about positions, where you can find them, what sort of impact they can have. And it really does feel like you need one of these guys if you're going to get to this game. Both of these teams have one. We talked about another one earlier in Cooper Cup. And it is a really important factor in all of this. I mean, look at the final four teams.

We talked about this last week. Tari Kill, Travis Kelsey, Debo Samuel, George Kittle. Cooper Cup, Odo Beckham, Jamar Chase, T. Higgins. Like, the receiving talent and those guys that can just make plays and kind of conjure plays by virtue of being on the field, it's really important to have those guys. And that's exactly what Jamar Chase has been. And I think with Chase, the size thing is really interesting. He got asked, I guess it was last week.

Like, do you play bigger than your size? And he was like, I just, I am who I am. Like, I play. The answer is yes. He definitely does. Yeah, it was it was phrased really funny. Like, I don't think he had thought about it that way of like, oh, you play like your 6-4 or whatever. But yeah, he definitely plays bigger.

But it's also just another like reminder of there's just stuff that you can't like scout like in a traditional fashion. There's not measurables for the type of chemistry that you have with your quarterback or the trust that your quarterback will have in you. And, you know, we've talked so much about the way that Zach Taylor has kind of empowered Joe Burrow to be aggressive and to, you know, take those downfield throws. And none of that works if you don't have Jamar Chase on the other side. If you don't have the complete belief that my guy, even though he's a rookie, my guy is going to win that one-on-one matchup just about every time. And you can go to him in those really, really big moments, the third and 27 when you have an all-out blitz against Kansas City. those sorts of things. And though I don't know if that's going to change scouting.

People are going to be going out and I'm trying to find, you know, teammates and stuff. But what they have found in Burrow and Chase is just so unique and so special. And I can't wait to watch the matchup against the next guy that we're going to talk about my last guy in the list. And that's Jalen Ramsey from the Rams. They're all pro, all world, probably future Hall of Fame cornerback who has been. begging Rehah Morris to shadow Jamar Chase in this game, which of course he is. That's of course, Jaylen Ransy is doing that. It's very outbrand for Mr. Jalen Randi.

So we'll see how much Rahim Morris says, okay, you can do that. That's not something that's typically built into the Rams defense in terms of, you know, shadowing a receiver like that. They do it with good by like bigger body guys, right? Like they've done it with Mike Evans. They've done it with D.K. McHath. And they have it as a break in case of emergency sort of plan. But Chase doesn't necessarily fit the profile of that guy.

even though he is like an isolated X receiver in a lot of situations. But so it'll be interesting to see the way that the Rams go about this and how they decide to cover all these guys because look, it's not like Jamar Chase is their only receiving weapon. T. Higgins, really good. Tyler Boyd, really good. You know, they've got good receivers all across the lineup. We'll see CJ Usama says he's going to play their tight end. So that's another body that they're going to have to account for.

But when we talk about Jalen Ramsey and this is such a huge part of this Rams. team building philosophy. He was one of the first, you know, we're going to trade away a lot of picks. We're going to go all in. But this is the first time that they're really able to make a deep playoff run with him. I think you could say really without question that the Rams won that trade. They gave away two first round picks. And imagine that. Giving away two first round picks and then paying a guy the top of the market at his position. And you won the trade pretty convincingly. Yeah. And even a lot of that is because of what the Jags have done. That's the big the Jags have just really like crapped away how they've used

those picks. But they've absolutely gotten everything that they've wanted out of Jalen Ramsey from a on-field performance from a awards perspective. The last thing that's left is to get the Super Bowl. They made that Jalen Ramsey trade the year after they lost that game. It was midway through the season. But because they needed that juice there, right? I mean, they made other cornerback trades. We mentioned it before, Akib Talib, Marcus Peters. But. having a guy like Jalen Ramsey be available, who is without question the best player, or one of the two or three best players at his position. Year in and year out, the most consistent.

Like there's a lot of volatility at the top with that spot. He is every single year in the conversation in the top three. And that's really important to be able to rely on that. Yeah, he's been a first team all pro, the last, the two full seasons that he's played in Los Angeles, you know, really without question. They can just do so much with him. You know, Brandon Staley obviously had just a ton of creativity with the way that he decided to approach Ramsey and how they were going to use him.

It wasn't just going to be a strictly like, we're going to line you up outside, outside quarterback and let you cover your guy. I mean, they're, they've just used him in a lot of really interesting ways to take advantage of what a good player he has all around. He tackles. He's physical.

He obviously is a ball high. I mean, he does all of the things that you want a cornerback to do. So when we're talking, you know, what's the storyline here with Jalen Ramsey? I mean, he's a guy that they brought here to win a Super Bowl. and him, Aaron Daw, I mean, he's like a star among stars. And I guess that's just for me what it is, right?

I mean, he's just been such a crucial part of the way that the Rams want to do everything, you know, want to build their roster, the way that they want to play defense, the way that they want to be like flashy and, you know, brash and out there. He's, look, he hasn't been quite the like the guy who talks as much shit as he did when he was with the Jags. I think he's toned that down a little bit. Not a ton, but I mean,

that guy is still in there with him. But, you know, he's going to be in your face. He's going to get physical the receivers. I don't think he's fought anyone in a while. So that's good physically in a game. Making progress. Golden Tate was in this game. It would be entertaining.

But I just think he speaks to so much of like who the Rams are and why they've been successful. I totally agree. I mean, again, to somebody that is such an expression of their process and the way that they've built this thing. Speaking of, the last guy I have is O'Dall Beckham.

And the first thing I think about with O'Dall Beckham is that he was Jamar Chase. Remember O'Dall Beckham as a rookie? He was just this comet that took over the league. And it seemed like he was going to be the biggest star in the NFL. And he's playing in New York. And he had that catch on Sunday night football. And it's like, this is it. You know, this is the guy.

And then, you know, you have the trade to Cleveland. and everything that happened in Cleveland, how strange that situation was. They never really figured it out. And then he comes to L.A., and he's still a really good player. And I think my takeaway from this entire situation is just that these guys just have different chapters of their career,

and they kind of float in and out of these different versions of themselves. And sometimes, like, that's the story of a player. And Odo Becham didn't end up becoming the guy we thought he was going to be in New York, where he was the best receiver in the league every single year after the first four seasons that he had. But he's still really damn good and dropped into this situation, the fact that they could just get him midseason and it kind of helped them survive the Robert Woods injury and the way that they did. It's these guys sometimes need changes of scenery, need, you know, some things to shift about where they are at, where they're at their career and who they're surrounded by to kind of allow them to express who they are in these moments. and it feels like that's what happened with O'Do Beckham. It's just that the Cleveland situation just did not work out.

He was still a really talented guy, and if given another shot, he could affect the game at the most important moments of the season. He could be a team that helped the team to the precipice of a Super Bowl, and that's exactly where he is. And it's just such a weird story. It's not the version of the story we thought we would have gotten five years ago, eight years ago when he came into the league. But it's still a story that can have a pretty cool ending,

and that's where we are with him. it's so wild to think about where he was and what the story was with him in October. Yeah. You know, everything with his dad making the videos of showing all the times he was open. There were people thought he was done, that he was just washed. Yeah, that he couldn't play anymore. And I think what the Rams have learned is that when he's not washed. Yeah.

But you have to figure, okay, what does what does he do well? What are the routes that he can run, that he likes to run? Let's not make him do too much right now. now as he's coming into a new offense. And yes, I think he's had a bigger role because of the Robert Woods injury than maybe he would have. It's really interesting to think of the like sliding doors moment. If Robert Woods hadn't gotten hurt right after O'Dell Beckham arrived, what would that offense had looked like? Would we be talking about O'Dell Beckham as one of the key players in this game? Probably not. But it's been fun to watch kind of his evolution and the way

that him and Matthew Stafford have figured out where they work best together. What are kind of those sideline rounds that they like to run. How do they get them open in the middle of the field? And he's been great. I mean, he's had a couple of those kind of almost opposite of Cooper Cup where you just expect Cooper Cup to like just rack up the catches and just, you know, gashing you for 10 to 15 yards, play after play after play. Odell has had more of the like, oh, wow, like look how open he got or the run after

the catch type of play. Some of the plucked balls on the sideline, just though the balls plucked out of the and some of the footwork and toe drag stuff. I mean, just the way he looks so smooth playing the position at times. And just how cool he can still look while playing the position in ways that so few guys can. You know, that has endured with him. It's not, he's not going to have, you know, 1,500, 1,600-yard seasons maybe anymore. But what he can still look like in those individual moments, that's why you go get a guy like that.

It's for this. And there's been a lot of that with the Rams, which we will dig into a lot more with Jordan tomorrow. Lindsay, I'm very excited to see you. I can't wait for you to get here. It's going to be great to spend a lot of time with the athletes. I'm going to bring some Girl Scout cookies. Please don't because then I'll just eat them. I'm just going to eat like three boxes of Girl Scout cookies if you do that. Oh my God. I went to, I went to dinner last night with two high school friends at Bestia in L.A. And it was Adam Driver was sitting at the table next to us, first of all, which was like just a perfect like first night in Los Angeles. I ate irresponsibly.

And I'm a little concerned about being able to keep up that sort of pace over the next five days. Did you bring skinny pounds? I did. I mean, I wore like jeans that are a little too tight for me to be eating like this for the next five days. So we'll see how that goes, but I'm a little bit worried. So I'm sure we will be doing plenty of eating, plenty of hanging out when you get here.

Always good to chat with you. I'll see you tomorrow. See you tomorrow. I am thrilled now to welcome, I don't know, just one of the greatest NFL players of all time, one of the best receivers of his or any era and someone at Pro Football Hall of Famer and someone who. has a pretty good knowledge of what it's like to play with Matthew Stafford. Calvin Johnson, thank you very much for doing this today.

All right. Thanks for having me all. Appreciate it. I was just telling you before we got on, when they made the Super Bowl, when the Rams did, I was like, who don't want to talk about Matthew Stafford's career with? And one name came to mind, and it was you because you guys are one of the most prolific quarterback wide receiver duos that's ever played the game. And I want to start at the beginning of that partnership because I know I had read and heard

that you guys didn't necessarily click right away. You know, Matthew was hurt for those first couple years. It's kind of herky, jerky in the way that your guy's relationship was. So when he got back healthy in 2011, how do you work on a connection like that? When did you guys do it? What do those conversations look like? Just kind of take me through how you guys built that partnership together. I think a big cool part of it was, you know, Matthew got the, you know, even though he was hurt, you know,

those year and a half for there or two years, you know, he was able to sit him the sideline and really see how the team work. the team that he was eventually going to take over full time, how that team worked, and he really got to see the ends and out and how we ran our routes, how we were thinking through situations. He was in those meetings, so he was as if he was there with a team,

just not exactly on the field with us. So when he did have his opportunity to come in and take over, you know, for us, you know, it was just one, having a consistent, having that consistent starter there. You know, I was never there, you know, my first half of my career, really. You know, and then when he came in,

you still weren't sure at first because he had the, you know, the shaky first two years, but the kid had a lot of grit. You can see the work at it. You can see him just to want to be great. You know, and we already know that he was two years behind. So he was going to dig itself out of a hole in order to, you know, to achieve some of the goals that he personally had.

But, you know, he did it. And I think it was literally just the time in the all season, the time we put in an OTAs. And, you know, the communication, the time in the film room, that just led up to that, you know, that trust that we had with each other because he knew that I was going to work my tail off and try to be the best that I could be. And so he did the same thing.

What kind of particular route or combination or concept do you guys feel like you clicked on the most? That's like this is where our partnership really shines. Probably the, oh, that's tough. The China or sort of slant route, you know, their brand almost similarly depending on the coverage. But, you know, just five yards and end. One of them's really flat, one has a little slight angle on it. But really just being able to beat that. having any and every coverage, you know, that was big for us.

And obviously the deep routes, you know, just a trust there for him to throw it up. And I was, I remember talking to Todd Downing a couple years ago and just about you guys and your partnership. And he was telling me that you guys would go into a given week. And they'd look at all the coverages the team was running the week before, you know, man, just aggressive type coverages. And he's like, we can throw all this stuff in the garbage. Like they're not going to run any of it.

We're not going to run any of this stuff against us. And you guys were getting a lot of what he described because he was in Minnesota with Randy Moss as the Randy Moss. as the Randy Moss coverages. They're just clouding one side, taking away everything deep. And so you guys kind of reacted by running sort of these lazy in-breakers

over the middle. And it kind of resembles a lot of the backside digs that Matthew hits within the Rams offense. So how did that, when you guys go into a game knowing that, we have to throw the shit in the trash. Like they're not going to do this against us. How do you react to that? How do you adjust to that in the moment?

Because I assume it's difficult to do that in real time. In the moment, you know, just, you know, you have so many conversions on each route. So, you know, I mean, going into the game, I know what look, I'm going to run off each route just from looking at my play cards. So it's instinctual when I get to the game. Okay, I got a four-way go right here depending on how he plays. I've already visualized this. I already know what's going to happen, even though the play hasn't happened yet. But I think that, you know, just, it's really just about being in sync and getting those practice reps in.

I was watching some plays yesterday. And one of the things that really jumped out to me is just, we have a joke on this podcast with Matthew Stafford that it's just all trick shots all the time. Like that's Matthew Stafford style as a quarterback. And there are a lot of them on your guys's tape together. The play before the quarterback sneak in that crazy game against Dallas, the ball he fit into you there. There was a throw when you guys played at New England,

like an outbreaker that from his angle, his willingness to throw that ball was just insane. How do you develop that level of implicit trust where even when there's nothing there, he's willing to throw it? And how is as a receiver, do you understand it doesn't matter who's around me? I have to be ready to catch this ball every single time I'm out and around. I mean, that mindset for catching the ball, anything in my area code came from a long time ago, college days, you know, but really just to trust that he knows that I'm going to have my body

in position where I need to be to have. He knows I'm going to keep my leverage on every play. I mean, that's where the trust comes from. They never see that, okay, after each route, this guy always has the right leverage. Okay, that gives him a little bit more trust to throwing the ball. And then knowing the fact that I'm not going to let,

for the most part, I'm not going to let anybody intercept the ball. It's going to end up in the most part. You know, that's just a whole, that's just the second level of that. So I'm curious when he got there in 2009, obviously big time recruit. You know, you probably were aware of him a little bit just in fact that he played Georgia. When you're around him,

at those practices early on. How is he different as a thrower? Because we see it. The ball explodes out of his hand. Practically, when you're catching that ball and working with a guy like that, how is it different? Man, I'm going to get it.

The funny thing, Matthew, when he came in, Matthew was pudgy. You know, he's not as fitting trim as he is right now. But it's like, it's like all Matthew did was probably like bicep curls because all he did was gun the ball. If you watch him ever in practice, he probably stood other day. He's always sitting over there with his fist clenched like this.

He's just sitting his hand down. It's never open. It's always clenched. And it always used to get on him like, man, that's why all my fingers are messed up. And that's why you go to ball so down hard, because you always got your dang fish clinch. You gripping the ball too hard. But sorry, I got off the dang question. No, that's amazing.

So when that ball is coming that way, how do you get used to the way the ball comes off his hand? Because I'm sure there was an acclimation period just because he's a different sort of thrower. Oh, yeah. Definitely, I can mention pure. I'm going from, you know, having all like five, six, seven different quarterbacks and everybody throwing a nice little fat little beach ball. I'm just thinking of those Sean Hill balls with like just enough loop on them. Yeah. That's exactly it. Going from Sean Hill to Matthew Stafford is not a good thing. You end up with fingers looking like that, you know. So I threw this out on Twitter yesterday. You don't have to say anything because it's weird to like pump yourself up. But I truly believe that watching.

you guys, I'm not sure there was a more purely talented wide receiver quarterback combination that in the modern era at least or maybe that I've ever seen. Just because Matthew was such a supernova of throwing ability and obviously you're built like no other receiver that's ever really played the game. Did you guys kind of feel that in the moment that sometimes our ability together is just going to be able to take over in moments even if schematically were not set up the right way on this given play? Oh yeah, we saw that. We saw that in many games.

You know, a couple of games. We played Dallas. You know, it was just like, he gave me to look. And he's seen, I'm tuned in. I'm feeling good. I mean, he's coming to me. I know it. You know, he just has to give me the look, you know.

And if he don't, even if he don't give me to look, I always expect the ball to come me anyway. So I, that's funny, because I wanted to ask you about Cooper Cup. Because obviously, he was pushing some of the records that you said back then. And the common ingredient between the historic season that he's had and the historic season that you had is that Matthew Stafford is the quarterback. So when you're coming into a game or you're coming into a game plan and they know you're getting 15 targets, they know the ball is coming your way. And the same was true for Cooper, right? Like,

they understand that's what they need to take away. How do you come up with little tweaks or variations on certain routes or concepts or ideas to still be productive when they know the ball is coming your way the entire game? Yeah, I think the biggest thing. for that is, you know, really break it down to a science, you know, and understanding like, okay, if I do this right all the time, I'm going to get this result. You know, I just, yeah, in one example of that is like my footwork. I know if I get in and out of my route in three steps, there's no way to DB. I don't care if he's sitting right down the route. If I get in and out of my route in three steps, there's no way that he's going to be able to make a play on that ball.

And when I watch the film, the data, the film proves that. So really just getting it down to a science. and there's many other things, I guess, within the position that you can break down to a science, but really just breaking it down to a science. And to me, I mean, it's a science, but at the same time, it's like art out there as well? With your frame, was it difficult to kind of get down the change of direction aspects of the position at a certain time? Because obviously, like, I mean, you're galloping down the field, like the deep all, just overall strides that you have were beautiful. But just short area stuff, talking about running slants. Is that something, an area you had to work on a little bit more? Of course. I'm a big guy. I'm out there playing at 2.40. You got a size 15 shoe. I got to be able to gain in small spaces with the DBs and like 5.10. I got to be able to move like a small receiver. And so I live in the ladder in the ladder before practice, you know, after practice in the all season. The ladder was my friend. You know, I couldn't get enough of it. You know, just really just getting becoming, making those quick twitch movements with my feet become instinctual.

I wanted to ask you, have you watched Jamar Chase at all this year? Man, I haven't really seen a whole lot. I don't get all those, I don't get all the LA or Cincinnati games, but when I do get a chance, especially late in the season, I was trying to watch those guys. I enjoy watching Joe Burrow when he was at LSU, and obviously Chase was there. I mean, that's an awesome story, just having your same quarterback.

Is there a young receiver in the league that you have seen a decent amount that you've really liked watching, somebody that's really piqued your interest? Yeah, obviously Jefferson. obviously chase those guys from LSU. I like my receivers that are up in Buffalo. You know, I got the digs, you know, I saw him when he came into Minnesota. So I'm proud to see his evolution. I had no idea he had the younger brother.

That was great, you know, as well. So that's pretty cool. Keep it in the family. Gabriel Davis had the pleasure of meeting him recently. You know, I'm proud of him and the success that he's had in that one, especially in that one playoff, goodness gracious, he went ham. But young, Other young receivers, like the CD lambs, those guys, man, it's just, it's a plethora of talent out there.

You know, it's hard to pick because, you know, each week is somebody new, but consistently planned this year. I mean, obviously, Cooper Cup, when Robert went down, he had to takeover and really, like, you know, hold up the, you know, hold up the receiver group. But also, you know, another thing I did, like another young receiver, I liked Van Jefferson. You know, that's my receiver coach when I was in Detroit. Yeah. You know, Van was out there when I, you know, he was jays. waist high on me out there watching Matthew, my mind his own practice and see Matthew doing touchdowns to him today.

That's pretty cool. It's funny because it's one of my favorite parts of the position is just that you can have so many different flavors of the position, right? Like Cooper plays the position differently than you did. Stefan Diggs is 6'200 if he's anything. And then you just talk about having a size 15 shoes and playing at 240 and you can still affect the game in the same way. It's one of the coolest parts of just the receiver spot in general.

So I wanted to ask you that this is a for me question. Who was probably your just toughest matchup that you had to go against over the course of your entire career? The guy that just gave you the most problems consistently. The guy that gave me the most problems consistently, I always start with, I always go back to Al Here's. And I only go back to Outeris because he taught me that, you know, early in my career, like, okay, this is how I'm going to have to be. This is how I'm going to have to play in order. If I got to play somebody like Al Harris every game, this is the mindset I got to come. Because Al Harris, every play, I remember Roy Williams when I was in Detroit, Hey,

playing against him because I remember my first week playing Green Bay and as a rookie, Roy was like just in a bad move. And I was like, what's all this do? He's like, oh, we got to play out. And I was like, all he do is grab your face mask, hit you in the face slap me. Every play, he just jamming you. He can jump jamming you every play. It's just every play at a game. You have to literally be on caution because this guy might quick jam you or grab your face mask. He wouldn't then call for it. And I'm like, okay, well, cool, that's your problem you got to deal with. And then lo and behold, I had to play out the whole game, so I got my taste of it. And it was just like a wake-up moment for me, just like, okay, if people were going to be trying to hit me in the face, I got to get nasty.

I got to get pilot. I got to get dirty. And from that point on, it kind of changed my mindset of how I played position. Your break was so bad because you just happened to land in the division with like the only six foot to 200-pound corners in the NFL when Charles Tillman and Al Harris were both there during most of your career. I just can't even imagine that. You would just completely lured over every other corner in the league except those two guys physically. I hate played to get Peanut too, man.

Peanut, both of those guys, I mean, even Charles Woodson, you know, I played him all the time. I have my career. They're savvy. They've seen what we got. They're going to jump routes. I hate smart corners with ball skills because you know they're going to start. They're going to jump some routes at a certain point when they get to feel like they've got

to feel. And if they jump it right, you're going to be looking at the back of their jersey going to the end zone. So, yeah. So the last thing I wanted to ask you, you know, you guys obviously had some incredible seasons in Detroit. You know, that 2011 season,

the 2014 season, the record-breaking season. Why do you think it never all came together? Why do you think you never had that run that the Bengals run now, examples like that where you just broke through one time? Yeah, I mean, I thought we're going to be there in 11.

We made that playoff appearance, maybe hit the wild card. I feel like we should have beat, you know, down there. We dropped like three interceptions, which totally changed the game. Why didn't we have success there? I feel like we had a team. Honestly, felt like we had a team. We had the D-line. We had the O line holding up for Matthew. You know, we had a Sue. We had it Fairly. We had a C.J. Moser. We had a mean, nasty D-line that

was getting after the quarterback. We had a secondary that could make some plays. I mean, we had the pieces I felt like at that time to take it all the way. It's just, you know, it takes time. It takes a little bit of time. But when you have, I feel like when you see that you have that chance in that moment, when you have those group of players together, at that point, you got to go all in just like Sean McVe did and get the red to get those missing links. For us at the time, it wasn't a quarterback.

I mean, it might have been a back-end guy. It might have been received. I'm not sure who exactly that person was at the time. But we were there. You know, we were constantly burgeoning and trying to get into the playoffs. We're trending the right way with the right team. And you just have to go in. And at the end of the day, I really just say they get boils back down to culture at the end of the day.

The culture within your workplace, you know, either, either creates a place where people want to thrive or they don't. You know, and I'm not saying that the players, they want to thrive because everybody wants to have success. Obviously, Matthew myself and other players have success in Detroit. But as a whole, as an organization, I just think it's a culture thing. You know, obviously Matthew is so well known for just the fourth quarter comeback stuff and just how resilient he is in those moments. And as somebody that's an outside observer, he seems very quiet, you know, and very unassuming. He doesn't really let a lot of people in even when they're tasked with writing like long profiles of him. It seems like he's very guarded.

As like a personality and as someone in the locker room, what sort of presence was he? Matthew, great guy, man. And he just, he won't, he, Matthew was like just, you say the average Joe with a cannon, you know, just because he wanted, he fit in with the guys. He communicated. He's able to communicate with everybody. Sometimes in locker rooms, quarterbacks have a little bubble, you know, they just stick to the quarterbacks. You know, they all stick together. They go to their meeting rooms.

They go to practice together. No, our locker room wasn't like that. You know, we had Dan Ollowski. We had Matthew Stafford. You know, Dan was a great debater. You know, he argued with anybody. As he does now. As he does now.

And Matthew was just like the even kill, just consistent guy that's constantly trying to improve upon himself, you know, provide, you know, good times for his teammates. You know, he had parties, have guys over to his house. You know, so I think that, I believe, I truly believe that he's growing into a better leader over time as well. And I take that, I say that because I see the sink and the connection that's happening with his receivers, even O'Dill. So you've got to have a lot of communication, especially with somebody new coming in like that, in order to get them on the same page to help them thrive. And I believe he's doing that. Matthew, after last season, that's pretty much when your career ended, right?

Like, you didn't have this second run with another team where you got to kind of chase a championship in these really cool circumstances. Watching him get this chance, what has this been like for you? Just living vicariously through him. You know, I knew for me, they weren't letting me. They weren't letting me out of Detroit, so I didn't have the opportunity. But to see him do exactly what they brought him to L.A. to do, that's awesome, because they brought him there just to get them to this point.

Obviously, they want him to win the Super Bowl, but they brought a man for him to get to this point. It's hard as heck to get to this point. And so more kudos to him. Awesome. Calvin, I sincerely appreciate the time. I'm so glad we can make this happen. Thank you very, very much for taking it out. And hopefully we'll talk to you soon.

Hey, thanks. No problem, Robert. Have a good one, man. All right, I am thrilled now to welcome a long time Cincinnati Bengals Guard, somebody who knows that franchise very well, who spent many years playing with Andrew Whitworth. Clint Bowling, Clint, thank you very much for taking the time out to do this. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Obviously, yeah, I got a lot of connections here in the Super Bowl, so looking forward to the game. So the first thing I wanted to ask you, you got to Cincinnati in 2011, right? At that point, Andrew Whitworth was in, I think, year six, because he's drafted in 2006. And even when I was in the locker room back then, right when I started covering the league, you know, 2012, like, you know, Atkins was playing great. And in those moments, I kind of felt like Andrew Whitworth was this kind of older, wiser, grizzled sort of presence. That was a decade ago.

And he's still playing. Like, can you imagine that he is still playing? Can you believe that he is still playing this far into his career? No, you know, it's, uh, it's, uh, it bled. blows my mind. I mean, the fact that, you know, I figured even when he got to to the Rams, you know, he'd probably go about, you know, I think he signed a three-year deal to start. And I was like, oh, no way he plays that out. He plays a year or two and shuts it down. But, you know, it was funny early in my career. I remember just, you know,

training camp sitting in the team hotel, you know, you're tired, you're sore, you're complaining. And, you know, Andrew just talking about, you know, I got about a year or two left. I'm only going to do this for a couple years. And this was like 2013, 2014. And you know, seven, six, seven years later, the guy's still going and doing it. I mean, it's unbelievable what he's accomplished.

What was it like to play next to him? Like, what really made him stand out as a player at that position? I mean, a little bit of everything. I mean, physically, you know, his physical presence is

you know, he's 6, 7. He's a, he's a, big guy, long arms, he's still athletic. I don't know if it's the shaved head, the beard, the graying beard now, you know, that stands out. So he's obviously a recognizable guy, but even outside of that, just his presence in the locker room, the way that he can, you know, the way that he was as a leader and his qualities that he, and things that he did in the locker room, I mean, he's one of the best leaders that I've ever been around and played with. everybody on the whole you know both sides of the ball everybody looked up to him um so just what he's

accomplished uh you know physically it was unbelievable playing next to him you know he's a smart football player doesn't listen to plays for anything in the huddle you know he was always asking me hey what what was it again not that he didn't know what to do he just wasn't listening to the play inside i mean it was like every play we'd come out of the hud he's like what it was like it's too jett it's on too he's all right i got you so just like the little what was he doing? It's just kind of like an absent-minded guy? It's something about he he likes looking at the defense. He just stares at the defense, but he's not in the auto. So, you know, he hears everything. And then I guess you just leave it up to me that I would handle that important information that I guess I felt

like he needed to know. That's really funny. There was, I can't remember what year it was. It might have been 2013. You got dinged up for a few games and you guys were dealing with some injuries along the front. Did he play left guard that year? or did he play right guard? Because it was a year where he was bouncing between guard and tackle, I vividly remember. Yeah, so it was 2013. I actually tore my ACL in the middle of a game against the Chargers, actually. And it was, you know, we had a swing tackle, a guy named Anthony Collins, who was a really good player.

He was kind of stuck behind Andrew and Andre Smith. So he was kind of the next guy up. They slid Andrew inside. and he played really well. And, I mean, he played really well inside, you know, run block, physical, the whole nine yards. And it was one of those things. I was like, man, if he wasn't our starting left tackle, I'd be a little alarmed about losing my job. But they're not going to pay him all that money to play left guard.

So I didn't feel too concerned about it. But, yeah, you know, just his versatility and different things that he was able to do, you know, for him to, you know, bounce inside for a game. And I know he started his career out playing. some guard as well before he moved out to tackle. So he's definitely able to kind of move inside and out if he needed to. He just seemed like the type of guy that was so great as a person who could give advice. Like for somebody who was young coming into the league, his influence on guys in that way,

I've heard about it several different times. What did that look like? Like where could you go to him with that kind of stuff? Was it in the locker and was it on the plane? What kind of stuff did you ask him about? I mean, how was he a presence for you as a young player? Yeah, he was great for me. So I got drafted the year of the lockout, which was such a unique situation.

I got drafted. I had talked to Marvin Lewis. I talked to the offensive line coach. And they basically said, we'll talk to you later when the lockouts over. Never heard from anybody for like whatever it was four months later. And so I had no connection to the team outside of I knew I was drafted by the Bengals. but about two months later, I got a, I can't remember if it was a phone call or email, but I got an offer from Andrew, he was going to fly me out to Louisiana, put me up in a hotel room.

He had a charity event that he was inviting all the other offense alignment now. And I had never met any of the guys, but just as a rookie to get invited to that, to meet the guys for the first time, meet all the older guys, meet the guys that have been there. You know, just little things like that, you know, when I got, there, my rookie year, him and his wife, Melissa, hey, why don't you come over for dinner, you know, Tuesday night? Why don't you come out? Because I'm first time out of college. I didn't have any other friends. Didn't have any other family there. Just the way that he doesn't know how to feed yourself. Yeah, you know, hey, why don't you come over for a home cooked meal and, you know, he's got,

I think at that point in time, he had the twins. I think Michael might have been born then. But, you know, just to come over and hang out, interact with him and his family and talk about, you know, just the life in the NFL and the things that, you know, you were able to ask him about, you know, just little things like that that he did were then, you know, you see those stories all over the place of, you know, everybody that he's kind of hosted and kind of taken under his wing, you know, I couldn't even put a number on how many people it is. What do you guys, what did you guys eat? Like, what's like a memorable thing that they made?

Melissa was a good cook. Andrew didn't cook very often, but Mel was good. was always kind of lasagna. She had some homemade ranch, you know, salad dressing, different things like that. So it was always fun going over there. And, you know, we've been fortunate enough, you know, we've become close with their family and we've done trips with them and gotten to go different places and do some golf trips and different things like that.

So a lot of good meals shared with the Whitworths. Isn't he an incredible golfer? Yeah, he is a good golf. golfer. You know, we've had some good matchups. He's a good golfer. For as big as he is, too, you wouldn't think it, but, you know, he's a good short game, good putter. You can do a little bit of everything. But yeah, I mean, he's probably a single digit, you know, three, four index, something like that, if I had to guess. I mean, that's to imagine a guy that big swing at golf club. It's got to look like a toothpick in his hands. I can't even picture it. With the long arms and,

you know, seeing us sharing a golf cart together. I mean, at that point, There was a lot of mass in there. So it's, but yeah, ironically, he is a good golfer. God, God, the poor shocks on that golf cart. I just feel bad for it even now. Yeah. So when you guys were having those conversations early on about the league and everything else,

what did he want to communicate to you about what playing for the Bengals was like specifically? You know, it's a, it's definitely a smaller organization. It doesn't have the same overhead that, you know, Dallas Cowboys, whether it's the scouting department or the marketing, all that kind of stuff. So it is a smaller market team. But overall, at the end of the day, they are a, you know, they're a loyal organization. They truly love and want to keep their own people that they draft. They want to be around.

And so, you know, he's just able to communicate those things and say, hey, you know, if you're able to do this, they'll do that. that, you know, for me going into free agency, you know, I was kind of able to talk about, oh, so-and-so teams doing this and talking to him about that kind of stuff. You know, he kind of had a lay of the land of what they were thinking. And just so his experience there kind of helped, you know, I'm sure he wanted people to stay and that kind of thing. But, you know, just his experience in a number of years that he was there, you know, he was able to develop friendships with that organization.

The fact that you guys did things a little differently there and the resources are spent a little bit differently. Did you ever feel, where did you feel that the most? Where was the practical, how practically did that manifest during your time there where you're like, I can notice this like in real time? You know, I remember when I first got there where our cafeteria was, you know, it was a, I mean, it was that turned into the players lounge, you know, leaving college and going to. to that atmosphere. I mean, it was definitely a lot different. You know, the weight room wasn't very nice. The cafeteria, like I just said, wasn't very nice. We were eating on a basketball court. That's where our meals were typically. And just through the years that I was there, you know, the changes that they made, they built a new weight room. They did make a change to the cafeteria. The cafeterias knew they

hired a new chef. So just little things like that, the wait room improved. I mean, the weight room they have now is phenomenal. It's a great place, great workout facility now as opposed to what it was. So just in my time there, I mean, you could see that the changes that they were making and that they wanted to kind of better the player experience there for us. And so I know it's kind of, was kind of like pulling teeth, I think, for maybe some guys would say for a while, but I think over time they have made those adjustments and changes that needed to be made. When you watch them go on the spending spree that they have over the last couple of years in a free agency and just how out of character that was compared to the way that they typically operated when you were there with terms of outside players, has it been surprising to you or did you kind of feel like that was on the horizon with some of the other changes that they were making? You know, maybe as far as the free agents outside of the team, maybe a little bit, but they've always, it's not like they're afraid to shell out money.

You know, they re-sign guys. Like, you know, I re-sign there, AJ Green resign there, Gino Ackins, Carlos Dunlap. So they're not afraid to go outside that box. But, you know, typically they've invested money in draft picks and those guys. So they always kind of wanted to retain their own. Like I said, they're an extremely loyal organization. A lot of the people that have been working there have been working there for decades, whether it's, you know, the training staff, equipment guys, operations people.

I mean, all those people have been there for a really long time. So that's what they do like to try to keep their own. So recently they've signed some new people. So I would say maybe it's a little bit different. You know, I guess at the end of the day, it's a, you know, you invest in a high draft pick like you have with a quarterback and Joe Burrow. You're going to do everything you can to surround the guy with as much talent. And obviously it's worked out for him.

Well, the other part of it is that they drafted so well. when you were there. I mean, I don't want to bring up a source subject, but I still maintain to this day that if Andy does not break his thumb in 2015, you guys legitimately could have won the Super Bowl. Like that roster, that season and what you guys had put together over those couple years with all of the homegrown players that you had, it was kind of a forgotten team for how much talent lined those rosters in like 2015, 2016. I mean, I guess that kind of goes back to, you know, maybe they haven't drafted as well. And that's why they've kind of had to go outside of their comfort. zone, but when I was there early in my career, I mean, we went to the playoffs for five years. I mean, we went 0 and five, but we still, you know, it's an accomplishment just to make it to the playoff. It's not easy to do, and we were able to do it five years in a row. So I think the fact that as much, like you said, in 2015, I mean, you look at that offensive roster of, you know, A.J. Green, Mohammed's, Sunoo, Tyler Ifer, Marvin

Jones, all on the outside. I mean, those guys were phenomenal play. You know, Marvin signed a big deal with Detroit. Muhammad ended up leaving. Tyler obviously had the injury bug. But, I mean, we were loaded those couple years. And like you said, I think if Andy doesn't get hurt, you know, we still had a chance to win that playoff game against the Steelers with AJ.

But at the same time, I mean, we were rolling that year. I think we started, you know, 8 and 0 before our first loss. So, I mean, they did draft really well. And I think that kind of changed things maybe the last couple of the last couple of years was just maybe they haven't drafted as well. I haven't kept up with it enough the last year or two. But I mean, that could be a reason to sign. But clear like we talked about it. I mean, it's definitely worked out for it. Where are you living these days? Do you look back in Georgia? Yeah, I'm back in Georgia just outside of Atlanta. I guess I'm three years removed from playing now.

So I'm just like I've been playing golf and chasing kids around for a little while. It's not the worst thing in the world. I wanted to ask because I wasn't sure if you were still in the Cincinnati area because I imagine as somebody who, again, played for the organization your entire career, has such an intimate knowledge of the organization, gets its ins and outs. What has it been like to watch this run and just kind of see how focused on the team people are and just how connected people seem to be to this particular group? You know, it's unbelievable. I mean, for the fans, it's got to be just so, I mean, they can't even fathom what's going on. You know, you go around the city.

I mean, there really were. They truly cared about the Bengals. They wanted them to do well. The fans were great. And, I mean, they've had some, they had some rough years for a while, you know, before I got there. Marvin kind of laid a foundation. I think, you know, he, when he got there, I'm sure the changes that he's experienced throughout the organization have been unbelievable. But, you know, for the fans, it's got to be just an unreal feeling to see where they are right now.

But to watch it, I mean, I think the year that I retired, they, you know, maybe won one game where they got the borough pick and then that transitioned into his rookie year that he gets hurt. So, I mean, there has definitely been some downs right there the last few years. But so to see where they are right now, I mean, I would have never guessed it. I mean, it just shows that how important that quarterback position is and why those guys are getting paid much money. with Marvin, it feels like he's kind of the forgotten man in this entire equation for just how the respectability that you guys really built there during his time. And like you said, you were to the playoffs consistently. You were always a relevant team for the most part during his final stretch there. What role specifically do you feel like he built and kind of taking the franchise to that place?

How did you see that? Yeah, just seeing how, I mean, I think he got there early 2000s. I don't know the exact year. but I think it was 2003. Yeah, that's kind of what I was going to guess. But, you know, when he gets there in 03, they get Carson. And I think at that point with, you know, with the organization, they're probably pulling teeth trying to just get anything done, you know, talking about the cafeteria and wait

room. And I think Marvin probably did push those things to make the experience better for us. And it's in, I think, you know, the foundation that he's laid, you know, I think you can't forget about what he's done for that organization and kind of the draft and the rebuilds that he's been a part of. You know, it's almost like he kind of built him up with Carson for a little while, and then it kind of dropped off for a little bit. And then got built back up with Andy and AJ in that group and myself and Andrew and all those

guys. And then it kind of fell off again. And now to see where it back is. So I don't think you can forget about what Marvin's done for this organization. I mean, he's a great coach. I respect him, and I have nothing but good things to say about Marvin. I guess the last thing I'll ask you, have you talked to Andrew at all this week, the last couple weeks about what this has been like or what he's thinking, where he's at?

Yeah, you know, we do keep in touch a good bit. We've been texting throughout the season and playoffs, and we actually talked on the phone. I guess it was early last week right after their game against the 49ers. You know, we talked, just wanted to say congrats. And, you know, ever since then, I've kind of laid. left him alone. I can't even imagine the logistics that are going into figuring out, you know, one, whether or not it's his last game, you're playing your former team, you got

your family, your home city. So I've just kind of, I've kind of left him alone. I just called, we talked, we said congrats. And, you know, we get some text messages here or there, maybe outside of football things that we talk about. But we do get to stay in touch a good bit. what would it mean to you as his friend as someone who's watched you so much of what he's been through to get to this point what would it mean to watch him win one yeah you know i mean it's it's kind of conflicting um you know i personally have a lot of connections with the rams um andrew's probably one of my closest friends from the from the NFL that's still playing um and i would love to see him get a super bowl you know i played with uh stafford at georgia have a right yeah And then just the, obviously, the connection with Cincinnati. I spent eight years of my career there. I want them to do well. So personally, I have a lot of, I would love to see Witt.

I also have the personal connection to the Cincinnati. So I don't know where I'm at as far as the game. It's going to be a win-in either way. Yeah. But, I mean, just to see where those guys are at, I mean, you couldn't even make all this stuff up. I mean, it's why the NFL is the best. It's just the storyline is kind of. to write themselves.

Awesome. I really appreciate the time. It was great to have you. Again, insight that really nobody else can give. So thank you very much for doing this. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. All right, guys, that's all we got.

Thank you so much to Calvin Johnson, which is still funny to say. Thank you to Clint Bowling. As always, thank you to Winsie Jones. Hope you guys enjoyed the show. We will be back tomorrow with our team writers. We're going to talk to Jordan Roderig and Paul Deena Jr. About how the Bengals and Rams got here. You know, working at the athletic is so unique because

You have a writer for every team that knows everything about that team. They follow them day to day. They know everything about the twists and turns that the franchise takes to moments like this. We did a similar show to this last year, and I just couldn't go through this week without doing it again. I cannot wait to talk to both of them. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast, plus Rome of Choice. I'd really appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic.

Theathletic.com slash football show. I'm telling you guys, there's so much great stuff on the site right now. You know, Sheel and Ted did their film and analytics breakdown. You know, Paul's story that Lindsay alluded to her a little bit earlier that we're going to talk about tomorrow about just the scouting staff for the Bengals, how unique it is. Everything that Jordan has written, we'll have a ton more stuff coming to you throughout the week. So if you have not subscribed to The Athletic, highly encourage you to do that. Theathletic.com slash football show. We'll be back tomorrow.

Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.