The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Canton Court is in session

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Inner-circle Hall of Famers are easy to identify. Some guys who have yet to get a call from Canton, however, just need an advocate. They need someone to evaluate their entire career and make their case for the Hall of Fame. They need Robert Mays and Nate Tice and this episode of The Athletic Football Show. The 2023 edition of Canton Court is now in session.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. The athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing very, very well. I am pepped up.

I'm very peppy today. I'm feeling great. I don't know what it is. Woke up early this morning, too. Like super, super early, not by choice. And just, yeah, in a good mood. I'm really, really, I think maybe it's this category that we're talking about today that has me so pepped up.

So doing very well. Earlier this summer, the dates are. a little bit hard to pin down because of how we're releasing these. But so far in this offseason, we have done the Hall of Very Good, which we do every single year. It's one of our favorite shows to do, just remembering some guys. And that show is about players that we don't think rise to the level of Hall of Fame worthy. They're probably not going to get in, but we still think their career is worth celebrating. This show is about putting guys in the Hall of Fame.

This is the 2023 edition of Canton Court, where we make a case for each of these plays. players to be in the Hall of Fame. Often it's going to be guys that probably have iffy cases that probably need a little bit of a nudge that have been semifinalists that didn't get in. I went against that this year because I just wanted to talk about a guy after looking at some of his numbers in relation to someone else. So we don't really have hard and fast rules for how this works. The idea is we're arguing for guys that should be in the Hall of Fame and making the case for them. Hall of Very Good has slowly morphed with some rules. Like we're starting to put a couple on there. Like, oh, you can't have more than like four pro bowls or something.

Like we're starting to put some rails on it, like some ceilings and limitations on it. But this one's just whatever. Good, very good. Awesome hall fame. Yeah, let's argue for it. Well, the problem is I thought we were doing guys who had have to be eligible and that were semi-finalists. But then I remember I did Philip Rivers in the first.

In court that we did. That's what happened to me too. I thought those were the rules. And I saw Philip Rivers. I did stick with the original rules. But it's whatever. It really is whatever to me. It's however you want to do.

Because we have to mention Rivers. I mean, you have to mention Rivers. I mean, there's so much. To me, he's the best version of this argument. It's like, all right, he's probably not going to get in or it's going to be an argument for why he has to get in. Here's the case. So that's why I had to do him in your once. I think that kind of gave us some flexibility moving forward.

Again, I have two guys that have been eligible and have not gotten in that I think they need a little bit of an argument. I have one guy who's probably going to walk in, but I just think it was worth remembering some of his accomplishments and reminding people. and reminding people when he becomes eligible next year, why he should walk into the Hall of Fame. I like that. And it's important to kind of recall that. So we each have three guys here that we're going to talk about. We don't know who the three guys are for each other, which is fun.

So why don't you try out your first one here? Who is your first entry into the Canton Court argument for 2023? Do you want to name off who we listed the first time around? Sure, sure. Okay. So the last time we did this, I did Ronde Barber, who's in now. so yay Tony Bisselli who's now in as well Tori Holt and then Kevin Williams was graduated from the Hall of Very Good to Canton Court. I graduated him. He got the bump. He got promoted to that before we did that show. So those were my four the first time we did this. So I did Devin Hester. Yes. He has not gotten in yet and absolutely should get in. Yes. Patrick Willis. That's the one I feel strongest about like obviously I love Devin Hester, but like Patrick Willis should be in the Hall of Fame. He has five first team all pro selections. Like he should be in the Hall of Fame.

Like it's not even a conversation. What the best defenders in the league for a half a decade? That's like just, that's plenty. That should be plenty. At least in my how I, how I count these things. So I agree. He had six years in the start of his career where he was either first or second

team all pro in those six years. He was the defensive rookie of the year. Like even if he only played for eight seasons, like Patrick Willis should be in the Hall of Fame. I firmly believe this. And then I did Philip Rivers just because I, this is one of my things. It's one of my hills that I'm going to die on.

and I am firmly ready to die on it. So those are the three guys that I put forth last time. We did not do this last year for, I don't know, reasons. I'm not sure why we didn't do it last year. Probably just ran out of show slots for May and June, and that's how it worked. I was looking for a Google Doc. I was looking so deep in my Google Docs, even with my date to try and find it and couldn't find it. So it made me feel a little bit better about my sorting system, my chaotic sorting system.

All right. Who's your first guy? Let's do this. First one. This one, I feel like is an easy case to argue for it, even though he's been a semi-finalist, hasn't made it yet. And that is Andre Johnson. Andre Johnson is also my first one. I knew it.

I told you on the pre-show. I think we're going to have the same one, especially since we both mentioned him on the last show we did. Because he was on my brain. Man, I mean, where do you want to begin? Last time I argued for Tori Holt, and I think Andre Johnson's got way more of a case than Tori Holt when you start breaking it down. Two-time first team all pro, two-time second-team all pro. Seven-time pro bowler. I mean, those are damn good marks for especially a position like that.

And especially the era in which he played. Correct. Where there were also a lot of really good receivers. And I think you could make an argument during this stretch that he was right there with any of them. So why don't you lay out a couple things? I'll tap into the stats that I want to throw out there. Yeah, I mean, yeah, counting stats or accolades. I think he's gotten both covered.

But, you know, twice led the NFL in receiving guards and receptions, I think that's a good point in his favor. But I'll even say, I'm just going to go with the accolades. More first team all pros than Reggie Wayne, Tori Holt, Michael Irvin, Art Monk, Andre Reid, Anquan Bolden, I could keep going on for that. More Pro Bowls than Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, Michael Irvin, Art Monk, Isaac Bruce, same as Julio Jones, same as Tori Holt. Those are just the accolades. And that speaks to how damn good Andre Johnson was.

He was, and we talked about this on the show previously, or I can't say last week, but at some point in May or June when that show came out, he was the epitome of the NFL X. your true X receiver. He's the prototype. He's long. He's big. He's a good route runner. He can win physically. He's athletic enough to take the top off and go vertical. He is who Kyle Shanhan shows when he's talking about who he wants as his outside receiver. He shows Andre Johnson Tate. That is who he shows. And I think that really speaks to what a player he was, what the prototype he was. I don't want to speak all the points. I'll defer to you now. I'll pass the baton to you tag you in right now. Stylistically, which is why it's so cool to have watched Andre Johnson. And we talk about

that just prototypical ex-receiver. He's huge, right? So Andrejohn's was 6-3-2-30. I mean, he was one of those guys that walked in to being a top five pick and no one even blinked an eye because of what his physical profile looks like. So you go back and you watch like Andre Johnson taper, Andre Johnson highlights. He's that big body just catching slants and getting first downs guy. I tweeted out a clip today.

There was a game, I think it was in the 2007 season. Yeah. Where they were playing the Titans and they were up by three. The Texans were in the fourth quarter. They threw two smokes to him in like a three-play stretch when they were up by three trying to grind the game out and go down for another score when it was like second and nine. And he was just making a guy missing space and like creating a first down. But he also had gas. If you wanted him to take the top off and you wanted to take a shot down the field, you absolutely could.

He was an explosive receiver. He wasn't just a big-bodied receiver. I love this number. since 2000, he had 28 catches of 40 plus yards where he did not score a touchdown. So just an explosive play that wasn't a touchdown. That's the fourth most since 2000. So it wasn't just a big body guy. He was a big play threat on top of being that guy who could body somebody up and catch a slant,

you know, catch a now smokescreen and take it 10 yards and run somebody over. And then the accolades, you mentioned obviously, the counting stats, he's 11. the whole time in receiving yards. Yeah. Okay. And the two guys ahead of him, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, those guys played with Peyton fucking Manning. Correct.

Not Matt Schaub. Roderoy Johnson played with Matt Schaub his entire career. And guess what? I was watching, again, Roger Johnson Highlights today. And they were on maybe NFL Live or some show where Tray Ringo was doing the hosting. Trey Ringo was talking to Merrill Hodge. And they were talking about how, now that Matt Schaub was there, they had solidified the quarterback position in Houston.

after cycling through David Carr and some of the other guys that they had early in his career. So Matt Schaub was the savior for the Texans' offense in Andre Johnson's career. That's all you need to know about the quarterbacks he had played with before Matt Schaub got there in 2007. So speaking of 2007, that's the first year of Matt Shaw Brad. They traded, I think, two second round picks to get Matt Shaw from the Falcons. Here is where Andre Johnson ranked in yards per route run over the, from 2007 to 2003. 13, which is like his last full season with the Texans. First, third, third, fifth, first, second, ninth.

You can't remember who else was playing at that time. Yes. That's insane. I mean, that's... There was a long time. It's so easy when you start breaking it down like that. There was a long time. Now he's 16th, you know, in yards per game.

You're receiving yards per game in NFL history. But a lot of the guys ahead of him on that list are guys that have been playing recently, okay? Antonio Brown, Michael Thomas, Cooper Cup, DeAndre Hopkins, Tyree Kill, O'Dell, Becker, Mike Evans. And Stefan Diggs, Keenan Allen, all guys who played most of their careers

after Andre Johnson's ended. And Andrew Johnson's got to league in 2003, right? He only had like three or four years in what I would call the passing boom era, and he was still 16th. And this is if you include the last two years when he was doing nothing on the Colts. His last season, he played nine games.

He averaged 10 receiving yards per game with the Colts. So if you look at the, of his career, he was one of the most effective, efficient, productive receivers on a per game basis in NFL history for the first decade of his career. And a run first boot heavy offense with Matt Chavez's quarterback. That's why that yards per route run stat is such a good one because of just the opportunities they had, not just targets, but just pure opportunities that he had every game.

My first exposure to Andre Johnson was against Nebraska. And when Miami played, it was throttle Nebraska in the Rose Bowl. And he, when you're saying take the top off, that's what I remember. And he, even when he listed his size, when I looked it up for this exercise, I was, I was looking it up. And I was like, man, I remember him being like 6-2-10. You know, that's how I pictured him in my brain because he moved like that. He doesn't move like he's 6-3-230. He runs a full route tree with 34-inch arms.

Like he's, he was incredible. And, I mean, Dr. Johnson was 6-2-230 at the combine. Okay. He ran a 4-440. He had a 39-inch vertical leap. And he had 132-inch broad job, which is 94th percent down in the broad job. We never call him a freak, though. We always talk about Julio or Calvin Johnson.

He was Julio before Julio. Correct. If you look at a lot of aspects. A little more polished at the time when he came into the league, a little bit more polished than Julio was. If you look at the aspects of his game in terms of how he could win, being just insane production, the yards per game, Julio, I think is still the NFL, he leads the NFL history. in yards per game, Julio does at 88, which is insane.

And the other similarity between them, they did not catch a lot of touchdowns. So this is going to be the argument against Andre Johnson when it comes down to it. Andre Johnson, in his career, okay, only caught 70 touchdown passes, which is 39th since the merger. Wesley Walker has one more touchdown catch. Marcus Colston has two more touchdown catches than Andre Johnson. Andre Johnson. And he only played a handful of seasons. Okay.

There are a lot of guys ahead of him on this list. Irving Friar has 84 touchdown catches. Shut out. Irving Friar. So that is the argument against Andre Johnson. Okay. So let's throw some stats out though. Okay.

From 2003 to 2012, the first decade of Andre Johnson's career, he had 37 targets in goal to go situations. Okay. 37. That's 17th in the NFL. I was going to say that. Larry Fitzgerald had 61. Tony Gonzalez had 60. He had a 64.9% catch rate on goal to go targets. Exact same as Tony Gonzalez and five spots lower on that list than Larry Fitzgerald. He was 28th. Larry Fitzgerald was 23rd. So opportunities, he was converting just as many of those opportunities in those red zone and goal to go passing situations as those guys who were just. stacking up touchdown after touchdown.

He was 17th among all players in touchdowns from outside the Renzone over that stretch, which isn't great, but it's not terrible. He also had 43 receptions in his career where he was tackled inside the three-yard line. That is one of those. That is tied for the fourth most of any player since 2000. So you tack 10 more touchdowns on that, 15 more touchdowns. We're not even discussing this. Yeah.

I mean, he had more touchdings. touchdowns of Michael Irvin. I mean, if you want to, I mean, yes, he played a couple more seasons, but those were kind of lost seasons of Johnson's career, but I mean, still speaks to it, how many he had. And I just the touchdowns outside the red zone thing. Here, so here's a couple other examples that I think are helpful. Randy Moss had 45 touchdowns from outside the red zone in his career. 21 of those came with Tom Brady. Okay. During that three-year stretch, 21. Yeah. T.O. had 42 touchdowns from outside the red zone in his career. 20 of those. came in the three-year stretch with Tony Roma.

So, I mean, without that, those things juice it up. And the last stat that I'll mention, since 2000, here are the players with more receiving first downs than Andre Johnson. Larry Fitzgerald, Tony Gonzalez, Reggie Wayne, who played with Peyton Manning. That's it right there. That's the stat. He was an unbelievably productive receiver. He did everything you need him to do. He was a machine.

He had some injuries, but the counting stats are still there to get him in. the touchdowns to me is the only thing to keep him out. And I think a lot of that is situational. I think that in terms of just skill and what he was as a player, I absolutely think that he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Counting stats and then the peak of his powers were up there as far as where he's stacked. That's kind of what I look at. I don't look at as team accolades too much unless that like is a big barram or like,

oh, Super Bowl MVP or anything like that. But it's, I just think he's kind of a no-brainer, especially when you start breaking it down. I remember him being a always counting him amongst the top three. top four receivers, even when I was a kid in high school or college. That's how I consider Andre Johnson. So it's not like you look back and you're like, wow, he had a lot better career than I realized.

No, even at the time we realized he was good. I think what he is, he's a pro type X. I think all encompassing to me, he's a no-brainer to be in the Hall of Fame because he's that type of player. He was the best at his position when he was at the peak of his powers. He had some counting stats, longevity stats, seven-time pro bowlers. So he's always relevant. Yeah, I just think he's a no-brainer.

Two seasons where he played half a season. And he still got to those total county numbers. I think the argument against him is going to be, well, what do we do with this glut of receivers that isn't getting into the Hall of Fame? Reggie Wayne is another one of those guys. Put Andre Johnson on those Colts teams. Yeah, he would have just been. Look at what Andre Johnson's numbers would be. Reggie Wayne was a good player.

But I think Andre Johnson was just in a different tier receiver than Reggie Wayne was. There is one guy who will spoil next year. I didn't want to do two receivers, but when I was looking at numbers, he has some start. Gartling career-long statistics, efficiency stuff. And even if you're not in love with Matt Schaub, Andrejantz did have consistency at quarterback, right? He played with Matt Schaub for a long time. It wasn't like he bounced around between a bunch of different guys

for the bulk of his career. Steve Smith did. And Steve Smith's numbers are crazy. So I will be doing Steve Smith for next year's campaign court because you can make a great argument for him, but I'd already gotten down the road the Andre Johnson one and I was like all right we'll do Steve Smith next year I like that I was I was there for Steve Smith's first ever career touch that he took the kick return back for the touchdown and it was the

Panthers only win that year uh that led to them getting who Julius Peppers probably yeah so yeah so yeah so must have been 01 uh yep and I was not only that my job at the time when I was 12 years old was they used to have the pictures and not the Microsoft surface tablets I don't say iPads anymore I'm pretty good about it and I had to run to pictures to the coordinators. Like, you know, go give it to him. That was my job at 12 years old. So I literally see the kick.

I sat in the end zone. The kick came at me. And so I was 10 yards away from Steve Smith's first touch that turned into a return touchdown. So I was there. I have some attachment to Steve Smith. And then when he did the boat celebration in 2005, which is something we'll never talk about.

But yeah, he did that. Those are my two memories of Steve Smith. Oh, he's from my youth. But yes, that's a music case. I don't want to go too far down the road. But it's also, that's another reason I say. Steve Smith gets in because he's so memorable. Like Steve Smith just, yeah, he's an iconic player.

So I will be making the argument for Steve Smith when we get to this show next June sometime. He's insane, but it's the rule of cool. He was cool when he was playing. He was a badass. He was awesome. So, yeah, I'm all for that one. All right, my next one here. This one seems silly, like, because he's going to get in.

But I was looking at some of these numbers and like, holy shit, Antonio Gates's career. Like, oh my God. And here's why I wanted to do this, because when we're having conversations about the greatest tight ends of all time, and we're talking about Gronk and we're talking about Tony Gonzalez's receiving production, we should start mentioning Antonio Gates when we're talking about the most prolific past catching tight ends of all time. Okay. Yes. Antonio Gates is the third most receiving yards for a tight end in NFL history.

He has the most touchdowns. Antonio Gates caught. I didn't know that. Antonio Gates caught a hot. That's why we're doing this. Antonio Gates caught 116 touchdowns in his NFL career. That is more than Tony Gonzalez, five more. Here are the players in NFL history with more touchdown receptions than Antonio Gates.

You ready? Ready. Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Chris Carter, Marvin Harrison, and Larry Fitzgerald. That's the whole list. God, I don't think he even have to make a case after that. He's in. Like, he is going to get in. That should be it.

But that's why I think he's going. going to get in pretty quickly, but I just want people to not be shocked in 24 when he does get in on the first ballot, because this is some of the stuff that we're dealing with here, okay? He had 92 red zone touchdowns. Since 2000, no other player has more than 83. He was fourth in EPA per target among players with at least 100 red zone targets while getting all those red zone targets. To be that efficient in them is absolutely crazy.

And also another really memorable player. It was a basketball player, and he was one of the first guys that came along to do that. He was seventh in receiving first downs. I was 2000 until right now. He was seventh in receiving first down since 2000. This is another one that I think is worth bringing up. And this is kind of a backdoor way to talk about Philip Rivers. From 2004 through 2013, the first decade of Antonio Gates' career, the Chargers were tied with the Colts for second.

an EPA per pass play during the bulk of Peyton Manning's prime. The Chargers were tied with the Colts for second. The only team they were behind was the Patriots over that 10 years stretch. Antonio Gates was the number one receiver. Antonio Gates was the focal point of that passing game when they were as good as the Peyton Manning Colts for a decade. That's fucking crazy. It is crazy.

And I wish I could pull up the numbers, but let's especially just on third down. There was nothing more automatic. Like they talk about in hockey, Ovechkin's got his automatic shot like from the left side and all that. And people, some guys just have the automatic jumper or the sky hook and all that. There's nothing more automatic than like a third and six. Philip Rivers-Tantonio Gates on like a little eight yards like hook route from the slot. It's automatic. It was automatic.

No one could guard it. And that's why he was just a first down machine. This is a great call. Gates is a star stud. But it's, I think also. It's almost too good to include here, but I was just like, when I was looking at some of the numbers for J. Johnson, and the stuff kept coming up and I was searching by Red So, and I was looking at it, I was like, oh, I was like, holy shit. Yeah. Like, this is insane some of the numbers that he put up. He had more receiving guards and Shannon Sharp. I mean, he had what, what else? Like, all the numbers. Almost had a thousand receptions, which is absurd, especially at died.

You're going to, you're going to love this. I'm pulling up some of the numbers right now. The first down stats got to be bonkers. So since 2000, Antonio Gates on third down, the only two players with more receiving first downs on third down than Antonio Gates were Anquam Bold and Larry Fitzgerald. That's it? Yes. Larry Fitzgerald had 139 more third down targets than Antonio Gates. He had six more receiving first downs. Antonio Gates converted 61.2% of his third down targets into first downs.

That's absurd. Yeah. That's ridiculous. I told you it was automatic. It was. It was every third down. They just peppered him with the same exact route because there was a read route. And he was so good at it because he could turn so tightly.

He was amazing. One of my favorite stats that I was looking up is that 2014 Chargers team. Like I really like that team was kind of like the last gasp of and Keenan Allen was in the league now. So it was this combination of the older chargers with like this newer scope position group that they were coming in. Antonio Gates was 34 years old that season. He finished 13th in the NFL and EPA per target.

He had 69 catches for 800 yards and 12 touchdowns. He was 34 years old. That's so awesome. What a good player. He was like unique. And like you said, he's like I kind of can be used in different terms, but it's like you remember him just even because of his play style. of course the background of playing basketball.

But man, he was just an incredible player. I think at first people treated him like an anomaly. Like, oh, that guy's pretty good. You played basketball. And then over time, it's like, man, this guy's really good. Oh, shoot, this guy's awesome. No wonder Dick Saban recruited him. And it's Michigan State.

Like, this guy's pretty freaking awesome. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned him because Antonio Gates is awesome. So he's no doubt about Hall of Fame. He's going to get into the Hall of Fame. But I just, again, he's eligible for the first time next year. It's like, he should probably just get. in. He should probably just be like a first bow at Hallfamer with how good his career actually was when you look at the numbers and you stack it up to not only just players at his position, but just past catchers during his career when he was in the league. Yep.

Like we say there's the glut of receivers. It's not like there's a glut of tight ends during that time. You don't like that's what I mean. There aren't there many tight ends in the Hall of Fame, period. Yeah. So and he was, yeah, just a special player. No. So that I think he should walk in. If we're doing this right, he should walk in. I mean, how many tight ends are actually? in the Hall of Fame. Isn't there only like 10 or 12? Probably about 10. So Tony Gonzalez, Shannon Sharp, Dave Casper, Kevin Winslow, Ozzie Newsom, Jackie Smith, John Mackey, Mike Dica, Charlie Sanders. That's it, right? Yep. Yeah. I mean, I think Antonio Gates is a no doubt about her. And obviously, there are going to be other guys like Gronk is going to get in. Jason Witton's probably going to get in.

Travis Kelsey is probably going to get in. But I think Antonio Gates is just, again, a no doubt about it type player. Yeah, there's only nine tight ends in the hall. We're going to talk about another guard, I spoiled it. We're going to talk about another position that's underrepresented in the Hall of Fame as well here. I got, should I go with my next one? Yeah.

I got kind of sort of underrepresented position. It's offensive tackle, but it's right tackle. And I got Willie Anderson of Cincinnati Bengals fame. It's a good one. And this is one I have to maybe argue for, but as you start really breaking down tackle numbers and accolates, because that's all you can kind of live off of with tackle play. It's not really stats.

But he started 184 games, including 116 in a row, which is also just incredible. But three-time first-team all pro, one-time second-team all pro, four-time pro bowler, was around the mid-2000s. He was the kind of the guy at right tackle during that time. Like he was the best at his position, that particular position. But he has like, if you just look at tackles in general, he is the same amount of first-team all pros as Orlando Pace. And I get it, that's the left side and all that. But you just got to look at these guys. same as Tony Bisselli, who got in, and I argued for a few years ago.

But like if you look at a guy, like if we look at guys playing now, Lane Johnson, I think might start battling for a case as his career has gone on. Anderson has more all pros and pro bowls and games played than Lane Johnson. So if you're just looking at a guy playing now to someone playing in the 2000s, I don't want to knock any Bears guys here, but what is it, Jimbo Colvert? Jimbo Colvert. He's an All of Fame. he only made two all pros and two pro bowls. It's like just even just looking at his position at who you're comparing it to.

But this was a road grading right tackle at a time when the Bengals were, you know, the Bengals of old, but they're still setting records with Corey Dillon running for the single season rushing or single game rushing record. He was setting up these offenses that had a great run game. It was behind him because he was such a talented player.

So it's not as sexy to talk about offense alignment and because you can't really just point to stats and everything. But this guy, Willie Anderson during the 2000s, was the best at his position. Definitively so, I thought,

or at least in the discussion first or second. That's why he made these all pro teams. On a team that wasn't team success, but as far as what he was good at, it was because of him. Because they were so good at running the ball, Willie Anderson was a big part of that. And I don't know.

Do you just look at it and you look at some of the tackles that made the Hall of Fame like I brought up? Yeah, I don't know. I think this guy is, Anderson, after time has gone on, tackle we're realizing, I don't know, maybe that's a modern game, but it's still an important

position, still offensive tackle. I think more guys like him should be represented at a position that still can be slightly overlooked. That's like you said, you're spoiling the guard. These guys are still amazing players and we should honor all positions, especially the ones that are the best at it for a time. He came on late in his career. You know, he made his first second team all pro when he was 28.

It was his eighth year in the NFL. You know, maybe that's part of it. Maybe right tackle is part of it. What do you think is the kind of the defining reason that he maybe has? hasn't made the cut over some of these other guys. Those two, and also he played for the Bengals. And no offense, you know, Bengals fans, but I mean, we all remember the late 90s, early 2000 Bengals were kind of a laughing stock.

And that was where players went to go away or rot away. So I think when you're not on those winning teams, like Jimbo was on the 85 bears. So it's like, of course you remember him. He was on the Pitt Panthers that were iconic at that time, the late 70s early 80 pit panthers. So the name recognition isn't there. And it's kind of, again, there's not it's it's a position that you don't have a stat to fall back on oh this guy played with for

a terrible team's but man he had 10,000 receiving yards you know you can't just point at that so you have to look at accolades and really memory of what the position was at that time and Anderson was he was top of his game but he just played for some crap teams and so I think that's what dings him a little bit you got remember that's you know sports writers voting on this so you know they have some of that bubble of their own when voting on these guys for the hall of fame all right you I'm going to do my offensive line in here? Yeah. I pick Logan Menkins.

I like that. I don't even know what his accolades are. So, Logan Menkens only made one first team all pro, but he was voted second team all pro five times. Okay. So he was six times in 11 years. He was first or second team all pro. If you look at the guys who were voted ahead of him in a lot of those years, early on in

his career, there were two guys playing guard in the NFL, and they were. Steve Hutchinson and Alan Fanica. Oh, that Steve Hutchinson guy's pretty good. Okay. There are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 guards in the Hall of Fame. I can't believe there are more guards in the Hall of Fame than tight ends. That's insane. It's insane.

There are 16 guards that are in the Hall of Fame. Steve Hutchinson and Alifanaka are two of those guards. So one eighth of the Hall of Fame guards in the history of the league were in the league at the same time that Logan Mankins was playing. guard for the Patriots. I think you can make an argument. And another guy that, and we can make an argument for him. I actually was considering doing him is Jari Evans, who he was a four-time first-team all pro, was a really good player for the Saints.

I think you can make an argument for Evans being on this list as well, and maybe we'll do that next year. This is a good one. He's a good player, but I honestly think Logan Mankins was a better player for his entire career. Like, if you look back at it, you know, stuff that. I'm going to fight you on that. I mean, he was a really, really good player both ways.

And he didn't get the same sort of first team acknowledgments. that Jari Evans got. And you know, you know why? I honestly think it's because the Patriots weren't as successful during his career as they were during every other time in the Bill Belichick era. Do you know that Logan Menkins played for the Patriots for 10 years and he didn't win a Super Bowl? That's like more of an absurd stat than anything else you could list off right there. His rookie was 2005 and his last year was 2013.

Wow. So he got there the year after they won to and he left the year before they beat the Seahawks. so he never won a Super Bowl. I was going to say, is there a Ewing theory? Logan Bacon's Ewing theory. But he was just an incredible player. I think you could make an argument that he was the best guard in the league for like a five or six-year period. He's on the all-decade team.

That's an accolade right there. I just, I think that him and Evans probably you could make arguments for both of them getting in. But I just think that Logan Mankins, if you are arguably the second best player, third best player at your position for a 10-year. stretch and you played on a defining team of that era. You were arguably probably the second best offensive player over that 10-year stretch for the Patriots. Obviously, Randy Moss and Wes Welker had their few years stretches here and there.

But over that decade, Logan Mancett's was probably the second best offensive player on the Patriots when they were the best offense in football for that. Oh, if you look at the numbers over that 10-year stretch, he was after Tom Brady, the second best player on those teams. So I just think on several different levels his careers were celebrating. No, I like that. I think that is a perfect kind of person for the show because how you break it down, if you just glance at it.

You go, oh, it's all nothing but second team all pros, but you got to realize who he's behind. And just because there's multiple good clear. Second team all pros also really good. Really good. Top four at your position at year and, you're out. The fact that he got it year in, year out too speaks that people are like,

yeah, he is good. Just these other guys are good too. And that's fine. That is just how it breaks sometimes. Sometimes there's a glut of talent at one position. Look at what's happening. it's a tackle right now. I'm just speaking like currently. But it's just that's a good one. It's a really good one. A good, really, really, really, really good player. And I do think he kind of

should be a hall of fame because I mean, God, I'm just trying to even think who else was like kind of around that time that are like pro bowlish. So well, this, this is a perfect example to me, okay? Logan Megan's has never been a finalist for the Hall of Fame. Vince, Vince Wolfork is a finalist for the Hall of Fame. Okay, Vince Wolfork has one first team all pro. Yeah. And he has three second team all pros. So he has fewer all pro accolades than Logan Mankins does. Logan Mankens went to seven Pro Bowls. Vince Wilfork went to five Pro Bowls.

Vince Wilfork is not on the all decade team. But Vince Wilfork is a. Yeah. Hall of Fame semifinalists and Logan Mankins doesn't deserve to be. Right. I don't understand that. Comparable numbers and like you can't look at eras differently. Vince Wilfork won two Super Bowls.

But because Logan Mankins played on the Patriots teams that didn't happen to win a Super Bowl. He doesn't get to be in the Hall of Fame, but still played on plenty of winning teams. I'm guessing during that Patriot era. One of the iconic offenses of all time. Yeah. Yeah. So two of the best offenses ever. Uh, so yeah, that's, that's a good one. And that's when you start breaking it down like this. That's why it's fun because then you're going like, wait, why is this guy in? Like, yeah, wait, why? Because a lot of people remember, they just go, oh, they were on the winning team. They had the, those Super Bowl wins, they count for a lot for how people vote on this, it seems like. That's something I've realized more and more as we do this

kind of study every year. By the way, a couple of years from now, like two years from now when we're doing this, you better be ready for my Marshall Yonda argument when it comes. I saw his name up there. It's kind of like all pros and everything. I'm ready. My entire life has been building to that moment. I know the Yonda case will be an easy one for you. You don't even have to do notes for it. It's just all in my brain. Yeah, you got to memorize. You're good. You're all set.

Jari Evans definitely in the same conversation. I think Jari Evans probably deserves to be in as well. He can make a similar argument for him. Meg, it's just the first place my mind went because I was looking at guys that haven't been a finalist. And then he hasn't been a finalist. Yeah. No, that's a good one.

Like, it's probably the best. Yeah. And then like Zach Martin will get in. But like that's really like, yeah, walk it. Easy one. And like Nate Newton, it's like another one that kind of had like something kind of similar career, I guess, but that's not in, but there's other stuff. So, no, that's a good one.

That's a very good one. Zach Martin has six first team all pros. He's ridiculous, man. What a monster Zach Martin is. Pros, pro. How can you not like Zach Martin? It's kind of one of my, easily one of my favorite players that I've ever watched. All right, you're ready for my outlier one?

Yeah, let's do it. All right. So it's a can't court. It's not just players, right? Oh, wow. Can I make a kid? Yeah. I'm going with Mike Shanahan.

So you, I know exactly the moment where this came up. We were doing a show the other day and you were mentioning Cal Shanahan and you said his dad is probably a Hall of Fame coach. And I could hear the light bulb go off the moment that you said that. That's exactly what happened. Because then I went, wait, he's not. Yeah. 170 wins tied for 13th. Okay.

So, all right, all right. But what's, let's off some guys. There's more wins than Mike Shanahan. Paul Brown. I don't know if anyone's ever heard of him. Bud Grant, Joe Gibbs, Bill Cower, Tony Dungey, Hink Stram, Dick Vermeal. He's 110 more wins than Jimmy Johnson. Yes, I understand Jimmy Johnson's NFL coaching career was kind of short.

He did it right. But 110 more 110 more wins than Jimmy Johnson, but they have an equivalent win percentage and the same amount of Super Bowl wins. Okay. Nearly 50 more wins than Sid Gilman, exact same win percentage. He's in the Hall of Fame. And I get it. That's AFL and all day. And also, Sid Gilman is in there for innovation reasons.

Innovation. And we can make a pretty good argument here. There it is. That's exactly where I was leading to. So not only we talk about iconic for players and everything and sometimes iconic with coaches and their personalities and everything. But wouldn't a guy that has his fingerprints all over the NFL for, I mean, really what teams have been doing? 30 years later. Yep.

And I think that matters. I think that matters a lot. It absolutely matters. Yeah, I mean, Dick LeBoson because of his, you know, innovative blitzing schemes and everything. He got in, like, as an assistant. Shanahan's offense with Alex Gibbs, the offense, a long time offensive line coach. What everybody is doing right now, it's, you can go back to right there with the 90s, Broncos teams and everything that came after it. It was truly innovative at the time.

People ran zone before and outside zone before. No one leaned into it this much and cleaned up all the rules and everything about it, body types, which you look at for each spot. Rules of engagement, depending on every front that you go against, the bootleg offense and passing game that came off at the play action innovation. That was the cool thing, right? It was the combination of the West Coast offense with the zone running scheme. And it's because he came from the Niners, right?

He was a Niners offensive coordinator, like the truest blue West Coast team that you could have. And you combine that with what Alex Gibbs brought and you got what felt like a new version of offensive football at that era. And it was. It was no one really combined that. No one fully leaned into it like they did and cleaned up all just the other stuff that came up with the night. Like usually when teams are go, well, you can't do that because, you know, your offense alignment are smaller and they can't, you can't drop back a bunch. Well, guess what?

We're on a bunch of play action and bootlegs. No one leaned into bootlegs that much. They leaned into play action before, but not moving the quarterback that often and to tie it in with your run game that much. Again, the ideas, everyone had similar or smaller versions of the ideas, but no one leaned into it that much. And the fact that I would say the last, not only just excluding Kyle Shanahan and his son and the other members of that tree, every offense runs some parts of what they were doing in the 90s, some little parts. And there's other coaches we talk about this like Bill Walsh, of course, is the epitome of it, the West Coast offense. NFL becomes a little bit like this where it's, everything gets distilled down. When everyone steals from each other, then the bad ideas get weaned out.

You know, okay, that doesn't work against this now. The meta is bad, so you can't do that now. Now, what, a lot of that base stuff that they were doing in the 90s, teams are still doing to this day, of course, with his son, but everybody in the league. Of course, everyone from his trade. Gary Kubiak was an offensive coordinator in the NFL two years ago. He's done. But so you're talking about impact in the 90s, impact in 2000s, everything in the past 30 years. You can point to a lot that came from those offenses in the 90s.

And so I just think his impact. and the fact that they won games. It's not the, you know, Eric Corral, you know, Cori- like, it's not that where it's like, oh, he was really innovative, but, you know, they won games, but they don't have the titles. He did win the titles. And I think that matters a lot. And also just the players that got, you know, got so much better under his tenure,

that speaks to what they were doing as well. So I think Mike Shanahan should be in the Hall of Fame because it's kind of one of those, like, if not him, then what are we doing? Because of just accolades and fingerprints on the game. And that's what should matter. when we're talking about the Hall of Fame. It should be the history book of the NFL, the history book of the game.

And you can't write it without Mike Shanahan. And I think that it's so important. And that's why you should be in. I mean, you don't have to sell me on this. I know. It's my favorite version of football. It's always been my favorite version of offensive football. And I didn't know it at the time,

why I loved watching those Broncos teams when I was like 10, 11 years old. But aesthetically, I just loved that version of it. And then, you know, it doesn't really trickle around the league. It takes about a decade for the idea to hop from Denver somewhere else. And it's because Gary Kubiak and guys on that staff never got those jobs. So then Gary gets the job in Houston in 2006, I believe, and brings the offense to the Texans. And then that's where you see kind of the second iteration of it.

Correct. And the ideas were really similar, right? So Mike Shanahan goes to Denver in 1995 and brings that offense, it kind of conceives of that offense over those first couple of years in Denver. In 2008, 2009, Kyle is the offensive coordinator for those Gary Kubiak Texans teams. Kevin Stefanski told me a story once where he was an assistant in Minnesota. And they were doing like a offseason study. And he went and he watched all of the boots that the Texans ran during the, I think,

2009 season. And they were just insanely productive on those plays. And at the time, they were a West Coast team. Brad Shilders was the offensive, was the head coach. That Brad Shilders brought Kevin Stefanski to Minnesota. It wasn't, he didn't come from the Gary Kubi at Kyle Shanahan

tree. He runs that stuff now. But when he was doing that study in 2009, so 14 years after Mike Shanahan got to Denver, decade and a half after the offense was introduced into the league, people are still crushing, teams are still crushing people with it because of how sound the ideas were.

And so as Stefansky's watching these cutups, he's like, this is amazing. And he falls in love with it. And so like that's, that version of football was so good and so sound and so affected, that it kind of has this intoxicating effect that

goes decades into the future. I mean, it transcends time almost. And I feel like that's why it's lasted as long as it has. And that's why it's still as popular in the current iteration of it as it as it is today. I just, it's, I love it. I just have always loved it.

It's my favorite version of offensive football. And I think the guy who conceived of that absolutely deserves to be celebrated in the history of the league. It was the outside zone, which is the basis of all of it, is just, it's a run it run, meaning any scheme that you go against it on the defense, it has an answer to. But someone has to come up with those rules. They came up with the rules to make it work. And that speaks to that. It's funny, talking about Sophansky. So in 2011, I believe it was.

I was at Wisconsin. We had a two week break before summer workouts. And this is probably like so freaking illegal. But whatever, it's no one cares. So those two weeks, I basically did a little like two week internship with the bear staff when my dad was there. And so Mike Martz was office coordinator. And Shane Day was the quarterback coach.

And they were, I was like, hey, I'm watched film. My dad's like, put him to work, put them to work. Give them a study to do. So one of them was like drop back depth and something like. like that at a mark at all. And then one of them was watch Washington, watch all 16 games, and tag all their bootlegs. Because it's so good and what are the rules on it. And Paul Chris was my offense coordinator.

And I told him I was going to be going down to Chicago. And this is all separate. And he goes, hey, can you watch Washington and see what their bootleg rules are and try and break it down? Maybe put it cut up for me. Again, 15 years after they started that offense in Denver. 15 years. Yes.

That's when they finally got studied. Paul usually studied Norv Turner. And now he's like, oh, what's this other stuff? these guys are doing because it was it was considered and this is macho NFL it was considered a finesse offense and so it's like oh it can't work and then they realize oh everyone's going to speed and you need stuff that you can run no matter what the front is because everyone's changing up their front so we need stuff that sound and and you can get gimmies like i always say the easy button that that that there was the kind of the yeah it was the starting point for all that but i always just thought it was just

it was interesting that two separate staffs were like hey can you study this one offense and that was before rg3 was there it was the there was the old school true Shanahan stuff that they're doing. So yeah, that's my just kind of little sidebar story. Glad we got to remember somebody. Well, that's a lot of Houston Texans talk on the show so far. I loved the 2009, 2010 Houston Texans. It was my junior, I was in college when Gary Kubiak got to Houston.

And I was watching a lot of football, a lot of football. Starting my sophomore year, we would go to this place called the Coliseum in Columbia, Missouri. And they had every single game on. and it was just a great college town sports bar. And we would watch all the games. I mean, just so we had everything on. So I'm sitting there watching the Houston Texans games as a sophomore in college the same way I would now. And again, just nothing brought me to those teams outside of just thinking the version of football they played was beautiful.

Steve Slayton, you know, like those offensive lines were Chris Myers was the 265 pound center. I just loved watching them play. And I think that that's where the love of that type of offense, you know, kind of gets truly drilled down. And then watching Andre Johnson, it's just, I really, really enjoyed those teams. And in its own way, like what we've seen with the NBA and the pace and space and everything, it was, you know, like the mid-2000 suns, like where you're just like you could see the spark of ideas coming from this one kind of team. And I felt like that Texans team. I think that's what it was with that Texans team and Kubiak doing it. I think more teams are like, oh, this is.

You can copy and paste some of this. Yeah. Like we, this is applicable to what we do. And I think that that's why that Texans team is kind of, in its own way, like had a lot more impact on the NFL than I think people realize even today. Well, because Kyle was there. And then so then Kyle's in Washington and then from 27 year old offensive coordinator. Yeah, he was 27, 28. And then he goes from Washington obviously.

And they get fired in Washington 2013. He goes to Cleveland. He goes to Atlanta. And those guys that he had with him in Atlanta, those are the guys that are. everywhere. Macleford, Mike McDaniel. I mean, we know the story. We know all those guys that were on that 2012 Washington football staff.

And now that version of football, you know, is the meta. That goes through many different lenses, right? I mean, it's distilled through your personnel each time. But that is the dominant offensive system in the NFL currently. The line I've taken to is that those guys all translate it and the Shannon Hans have their Rosetta Stone. Yeah. Like they had the original version and everyone else.

translate it through their own lens and how they their own dialect and uh i think that's that's kind of how i look at it it's it's really cool what i love about the copycat nature of the NFL is how people tweak stuff and that's why it's fun when you see the same concept you're like oh that's interesting and that's where that's where the innovation comes from there's only so many ways you can run the football and throw the football but it's cool when people put their own fingerprints and impact on it all right thus ends our two episode remember some guys stretch of the athletic football show summer i do I love doing these, though. It's a perfect time to do them. Perfect time to celebrate and remember some players from years past. We'll be excited to throw Steve Smith and potentially Jari Evans into the 2024 class for the hall. Get the work prep for the canton court. Now I've got a year to think about it. So we'll be ready to roll. For now, guys, that is all we have. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you.