The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Canton Court: Making a case for the Hall of Fame

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

The Canton Court is officially open for session! Robert Mays and Nate Tice each present three players and why they believe they deserve a spot in the Hall of Fame. They back up their cases with stats, stories and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. So you know what's funny?

Because we were just talking about Vegas and stuff is we're getting some rain here at night. I was just in Phoenix. It was raining. I was not happy about it. That happens, though, there. They get the bassoons in July. That's what we got. And that's kind of a new one for me.

I don't think we've gotten it a couple summers I've been here. So it's like every night you'll look. It'll be like perfect weather, perfect weather. And then you look at the map and there's purple clouds on the map coming like bearing down. And I'm like, I'm from the Midwest. I know what purple clouds mean. That's green, you know, the green storms before a tornado hits. Yeah, that's what it feels like a little bit.

But that's been a new adventure for my, my desert living is like those monsoon clouds coming in. I'll be out there at early August for your wedding, which I'm very excited about as part of my training camp travels. It's in the middle of me going all around the country. I'm going on vacation. When you guys are listening to this, I'll be on vacation. So we're starting the travel stretch of the calendar. This is our last show before training camp. We're recording this on Friday just as an FYI.

So something insane happens in the football world between now and Wednesday. I'm gone. I'm in California on vacation. That's why I'm not doing this. But we wanted to have an episode for you guys while I was gone. And this is it. And this is something that I'd want it to do for a while. I just think it's a really fun idea.

One is a standalone episode and two, this is a segment I want to bring back. If we're having a little back and forth about a guy, I want to have a drop and I want to say it's time. And we're calling this Canton Court. We're going to do this every single time we have a debate, a conversation, anything about the Hall of Fame. If we're talking about, let's say it's Matt Ryan, for example.

And I say, a Hall of Famer, I want one of the producers to be like, and then the drop happens. I want us to do this all the time because I love these conversations. I love Hall of Fame conversations and they matter to me. Sometimes they don't matter to some people. Some people don't give a shit about the Hall of Fame. I love the Hall of Fame.

And the premise of this show is going to be simple. You and I are each going to present three guys and we're going to make the case. You're going to state their case in Hall of Fame court for why they belong in Cannes. And I can't wait to do this. We love, it's very funny that that tweet went viral this week of dudes just love talking about old athletes because this is the second show in like three weeks. All we're going to do is talk about old athletes. As I was watching old YouTube highlights too is when I saw that tweet.

I was like, gosh, dang it right at me. It's fun though because on the whole very good show, I alluded to the fact that we were saving some guys because some of them are too good because this is what we were saving them for. So we're going to bring this back in little snippets a lot, but I wanted to dedicate an entire show to it. July, again, is the perfect time to do stuff like this. So why don't you start us off? Who is your first guy that you want to present here for Canton Court? I almost want to because now I actually technically have four guys. And it's one guy I kind of told I want to rescind one of my hollow very good nominations and bump him up.

And I want to go against it. I'll just put a little pin in it. This like continuation is Kevin Williams for. from the Vikings. And I think I slept on it enough where I was like, he's not very good. He's a hall of favor. And I want to argue for him.

Just real quick, just going over credentials and everything. Six time pro lower five time first team all pro. That's right. That's the one right there. Like that is a bar that you clear five times first team all pro. There are not a lot of guys that have matched that match that production and not gotten into the whole fan.

Yeah. And it's like, yeah, okay, the sack numbers are on there. But he had the sack numbers. It's just that he bounced around on the D line. He played different styles of defense. he was in cover two he was in the Seattle cover three for a year he's just kind of he was good no

matter where he put him d end inside on three tech he lined up as a nose on pass rush situations just kind of a Kevin was kind of a football player's football player just one of those guys everyone respects everyone goes he never missed I mean he missed like he missed five games in 13 seasons that's ridiculous for such a physical play style and how we played and he was on the all decade team and I mean those are just all credentials that I mean if you're on the all decade team. It's even if you're not saying I can't tell the story of the NFL without this guy. Like, you know, that's what some guy's parameter is. Can I tell the story of the NFL? To me, that is a, that's one qualifier. It's a one piece of a larger puzzle to me. And I'll get into

this naturally in the conversations that we're going to have about what dictates a hall of famer to me. Yeah. But that's one part of it. I think if you're looking at the fabric of the league, are they a part of it in a way that is really meaningful and very memorable? That's something I do take note of, but I just don't think Julian Edelman is a Hall of Famer. Like it's, it's only one piece of the puzzle to me. Yeah, there's like iconic and then there's tone. Yeah, there's just different verbiage you can use. Like Mike Allsad, that was like a perfect.

Everyone knows who Mike Allsat was, but is the Hall of Fame. That's why the Hall of Very Good exists. So I have a question for you. Yeah. So he got a league in 2003. So that's when Warren Sapp is the three technique in the NFL with those Bucks teams. When did John Randall retire? Well, Randall went to Seattle in like 99 or 2000, one of those two.

Okay. So he was very, he was either tail and or out by the time. Correct. I think 0.1 was Randall's last year. So here's my question, and this is why I'm framing it this way. So when Warrantzap eventually goes to O'Kwin in the way later half of Warrantzap's career, that's like 06 through 2010 when Kevin Williams is the best player at his position in the league probably, right? Yep.

Yep. So that's my that is another part of this. always look for how long were they the best player at their position or top two or three and did it happen because that to me is a really important consideration for the Hall of Fame and one we'll get into with one of my guys for sure yeah and it's the presidential term thing and that's that's kind of how I that's kind of my new I made it up for the Hall of very good like I was like I actually kind of like it is just the four years where you read that top three or four of your position for four years okay you're you're you're in consideration now but that's kind of like the

parameter for the Hall of Fame. And that's actually something I'll touch on later for another guy we're talking about. But I just want to put a pin in that. I think I'm bumping Kevin Williams up for my, for my first, I guess, auxiliary pick for this whole, this Canton court thing. But do you want to go or do you want me to give it to my actual number one? You can do your first one. Other ones sticking with the old NFC, old NFC Central became, then he bumped to the

NFC South as Ronde-Barbber. We become parodies of ourselves. Oh, my God, I know. We really have. I know. I try to find. We got to lean into it at this point. Lean into it.

Lean into it. Yeah, we committed to the run game or so whatever adage you want to use. But Ronde Barber, credentials wise, three time first team all pro, two times second team all pro, five pro goals total. We're getting into that conversation. I mean, three first team all pros, that's saying something at that position that, you know, guys come Ivan Flo all the time in their careers. You played in 240 straight games, which is kind of insane.

Yeah, to think about it. play style he wasn't like he was in the shit when he played that's and that's it it's he basically changed what we thought of the modern nickel back um as we mid two thousands it wasn't totally we're still about 10 years away from 11 personnel becoming more and more of the common position but the nickel truly used to just be your third best corner it wasn't like some certain type you look for it was just your third best corner that's who slotted in that nickel because it was like okay you're covering a third best receiver the the slot guy wasn't what they are now and moving the best guys inside, yada, yada.

But he designed, you designed your defensive scheme around him, having him in the nickel. There are rules still in the NFL today, how quarterbacks are taught called Ronde rules, because how he used to game quarterbacks with a bubble read. If you're running like a weak side zone with a bubble, you're controlling the one unblock guy, which is usually the nickel if it's in sub personnel. It's called the Rondea rules, because Ronde would bait quarterbacks and go, oh, no, I'm going with the bubble. And it just knife in and just sweep the guy's legs for a one-yard gain.

And he'd do it all the time. Yeah. And it's still to this day. People, I've heard multiple quarterback coaches that it wasn't just there with the Vikings that I knew like Todd Downing or something like that. Some other ones that I've been around. They call him the Ronde rolls.

It's hilarious that that's because he was the one that did it. He baited guys. He was a pressure guy. Him and Charles Woodson are only two players ever to have 40 interceptions, 40 or more interceptions and 20 or more sacks. It's because they would bring him on those slot blitzes. He was just around the ball. He had 80s in his career.

88. eight as a cornered that's bonkers bonkers and it's just those instances i brought he would bait teams and just going okay we can run right at and he just knife guys down it was it was awesome and remember he's part of an iconic defense those yes two thousand bucks teams which always this should be part of this it's do you think that helps or hurts him here though because i think there's an argument either way i think that's going to be the conversation that eventually happens with some of the legion of boom guys like in my opinion i think that wagner and Sherman are walk-in guys.

Yeah. And then I think... And I think Thomas probably should be too. Obviously, there are some complicating factors there. But with some of those guys, I think that when you're a little bit further down the hierarchy in those all-time great defenses, even if you have rings and people remember you as part of that, if you weren't the top two or three guys, sometimes that can hurt you. And the fact that we already have three Hall of Famers from that defense, right? Because Lynch got it. So I think it cuts both ways.

And that's how it went. Warrenstap was the guy. Everyone knows Warren's Sap. And then Derek Brooks was everyone knows Derek Brooks. Okay. Then it's John. Yeah, exactly. It's that hierarchy of the team.

And Simeon Rice is the same deal. I think Simeon Rice gets hurt because of that. Correct. And that's what we talked about too. And he's in that kind of borderline is he? Yeah, it's like he has all the credentials. It's just it's like MVP when voter, voter fatigue. Same thing.

They're like, oh, man, another guy. No, that's just a scheme. He just had better plays around him. Well, usually it's a good defense because there's a lot of good players. It's not just because a, one or two guys usually. I also think that him, Simian Rice,

coming to that group of late hurts him. Because we don't think about him as a buck solely in the way that we do with some of those other guys where they're like true lifers in the franchise. You never saw him in that old bucks. No cremiscical. No crampsical for Simeon Rice. It's so true. Yeah.

What's the, what they call him something like Buckingier Bill or something like that. I can't remember. They have a name for the guy that was on the, you know, the Jolly Roger that was all the smiling on it. They have a, they have a silly name for it.

like Bucco Bill or something like that. But yeah, we don't picture him in that. We picture Alls not in that. We picture, you know, picture Trent Dilfer in that, you know, it's like, you know, but defensively,

but you don't picture Simeon Rice. But yeah, my first pick is Ronde Barber. I do think he should get in. He, he really is. What do you think is the argument against him? Outside of the,

whatever the standing is in those bucks teams. It's people, remember the nickel stuff? It's just a nickel, quote unquote, just a nickel. But it's like, but he changed the position.

He changed what you could do or what, It opened up people's eyes of like, oh, this guy can get TFLs. We can blitz this guy. Rod Marinelli, he was running the same stuff in Dallas and Chicago, just bring that simple slot pressure, but it wasn't Rondei Barber doing it. You know, he would get productions from plug and play, all these other guys, but when you put a guy like Rondea Barber doing it, it unlocks it. So I think that's what it is.

People are saying, quote, unquote, he's just a nickel, but then he has 40 picks and 20 sacks. It's like, how do you kind of vote against that? I think a little bit is just the fatigue is just like we touched on too. But I think he should get in. I think I honestly was shocked that he hasn't sniffed as close as it as maybe I thought he did, even going into this exercise. All right.

Sticking with being parodies of ourselves, my first one is Devin Hester. And I have never, I've never been more ready for anything in my entire life. You guys can see me sitting up in my chair. I know. You're hooked up right here. This is the gif of John Snow in the Battle of the Bastards. It's just like whipping out the sword. I am so fucking ready to go with this.

I just... I love it. I think there's so many arguments for it. If Ray Guy is in the Hall of Fame and Morton Anderson is in the Hall of Fame, that Devin Hester belongs in the Hall of Fame, I think that's where it starts to me. Yep. If you are the greatest ever at an aspect of the game, you should probably be in the Hall of Fame. If the Hall of Fame is designed to celebrate the greatest players in NFL history,

if you are a singular talent at one aspect of the sport, you should be in. And I think that that's not even where the conversation ends. Because not only is he the greatest returner of all time, which he is. If you look at the numbers, he has 19 return touchdowns, 14 punts, five kickoff returns. I think the only reason he doesn't have more kickoff returns, he didn't kick, return kicks that often. But he is so clearly the best punt returner of all time.

I don't even think it's close to me and I'll get into some of the reasons why I believe that but I just think if you think about one skill the gap between him and everyone else and that one skill, even Dante Hall in my opinion I just think that he really stands alone and that is one of the reasons. Two, he's iconic.

It's not just that he was good at it. It's that he was the coolest player in the sport for a time in 2006. His rookie year when he came onto the scene, I just remember he took the league by storm. All of those nationally televised games that year. He has moments. Yes.

There's so many moments. And I think that obviously people remember the part return against the Cardinals to win that game on Monday Night Football as a rookie. But that game against the Rams where he had two was also nationally televised. He had a punt return or he had two kickoff returns in that game. He had one week one against the Packers. And then obviously he returned the opening kickoff of the Super Bowl for a fucking touchdown. It's, I still, that day, it was so sad. I was, it was my freshman year of college.

I was visiting my then-girlfriend at the time at the University of Illinois. We watched it in the dorms. I don't remember why we did that and why we didn't watch it out. I think I might have wanted the quiet. But that also meant we watched it on like a 10-inch TV in a dorm room. It was awful. It was awful. He returns that.

He returns that kick for a touchdown. I'm like, this is it. My entire life has culminated in this moment. And then it's just the rest of the, night. Yeah, that happened. But that guy, and there's so many of those moments. He had tons of big moments.

2010, he returned, it's, I think, week three or four against Green Bay. He returns that punt for touchdown at a crucial moment in the game. I was in London. I watched that game at like 3 o'clock in the morning at the American sports bar and Piccadilly Circus that no longer exists. And so there are so many of those. But beyond that, the production is so far in a way better than anybody else at the position. So if you look at some of the numbers, from 06 to 2013, every 20.3 punt returns,

he returned for a touchdown over that stretch. 20.3. The closest guy with at least 100 returns to him in that stat is Patrick Peterson with 32. It's not even in the same conversation. So if you look at some of the other numbers, it's he had the value that he added on pump returns was just crazy. In DVOA, the Bears were essentially number one through five, several times they were the best in the league, pretty much every single time he was there. He also had a touchdown every 44.4 kickoff returns, which was the fifth best mark in the league from 06 to 13. That's better than Josh Cripps, who is an all-time record in kickoff return touchdowns. So I think if he had returned more kicks, that would have been fine. So during that stretch from 06 to 13, he averaged

12.28 yards per punt return. No one else in the league was above 11.2. So a full yard better than every single, but everyone else at the position. So obviously you have those 06 and 07 seasons. The 07 season, I think, has my favorite one ever. It was the one against Minnesota, where he ran back and caught it over his shoulder

inside the five-yard line, because that was a team kicking away from him and the balance. When he gets hit and he goes sideways in the air, and lands on one foot. The balance was always insane. And that was my favorite one. But then you have this dip, right, in 08 and 09 because he's playing full-time receiver.

So you think, is this going to be the same as it was with Dante Hall or some of these other returners where you have this incredible start and then they tail off and we never hear from them again? And then in 2010, he goes and starts doing it full time again. The 2010 stats are insane. Okay. In 2010 on Devin Hester's punt returns, the bears started at their own 45-yard line. That was where they started the average possession every single time he returned a punt. It's like the gravity of a shooter, too, because like all those non-returns are going to start adding up.

That's the biggest one here. Okay. So he will only return 33 punts in 2010 despite being their full-time punt returner. 80 the teams punted against the bears 85 times in that season 52 punts were not returned if you look at it the the punts out of bounds during that season i went every single game 35 37 34 33 35 35 35 31 31 27 teams were just launching the ball out of bounds they could they refused to punt to him And that to me, that's where it is. That is where it goes over the top to me. It's when you start affecting the game and affecting the mindset of the people that you're playing against, of the people in the stands, of every single person involved in the game, they're thinking about you in those moments, you are undeniable. You stand alone.

And that to me is what he did. I remember in 07, I went to the Saints game with my dad at the end of the year. It was the last game of the season. It was when the last games ever went to with my dad. It was cold. And he went back for a return in the third quarter. They were up 24 to 17. And I could just remember the energy in the place.

And just what it was like when he was standing back there. And he returned a punt 64 yards for a touchdown. And there was nothing like it. It's like when Sammy Sosa would come up to the plate. When you have those guys, when you just remember the way an air fell over the stadium and when they were involved in the game, there aren't that many of those people who ever play a sport.

And he was that guy. There's so many little things. In 07 against the Broncos, when he returned a punt and a kickoff, when he returned the second kickoff, he was their only offense that day. He scored those two touchdowns, 20 to 20.

And Dan Deirdorf was just saying, I don't get it. I don't get it over and over again as he was returning it, because why would you kick to him? And there's just, there has never been someone. at that position who has that status and that stature in the way we talk about the position

and the way that we watch the position and the expectations we have for it and the excitement we expect from it. So with all of those reasons, I just think that he is no doubt about it belongs in the Hall of Fenn. I completely agree with you. I think he's a no-brainer. Like that's what, and it's funny when people argue, oh, he's just a returner, but that's the thing, like you said, he's iconic. It's the same thing with Moss.

you know, anytime the deep ball would go up, the entire stadium was just, you know, catching their breath for it. And I had never been around a real good returner until my dad was with the Bears 2010. Yeah, 2010 was that first year. And that was the first time I had felt that feeling. All of a sudden, because the defense is so good, first time I've been around a real good defense. So every time we had to stop, I was like, okay, that's nice. Points, offenses have to score 30 points. This is great.

And then just that atmosphere, it was like a party for every punt return. Everyone would just stand up. And it was like a party. It really was. It was like a power play in hockey or something. Like everyone just stood up. And I've never been around that atmosphere that about a guy just that because it was like, oh, they're kicking a hester. And then it would be the Bears fans became educated on special teams because like they put a way out of balance and everybody like golf clapping like good job.

Good job. You know like a good shift like in hockey or something. Like a good defense like good team defense or something. Everyone just clap like on a pun out of balance. I've never seen anything like that. And you know what guys. iconic is how the other players treat him. Yes.

He went to the Falcons. He went to the Falcons 2014. You could even see it on Hard Knocks because we had Hard Knocks that year. Julio and Roddy White, Harry Douglas, Matt Ryan, all those guys were like, well, we got Hester, man. Like anytime he did something, it was like, oh, where to go, Deb, where you go, DeHast? And it was just like, you leave him be. No, that's a legend. We don't have to talk to him.

You know, he's a legend. We throw that word around a lot. He is an absolute legend. That, one of my favorite stats is against ScreenBank. in 2010. I'm just listing them all at this point. Again, Green Bay in 2010. He scores the touchdown late in the game. He's awesome.

He was incredible. But so, Mastay had three punts in that game. He had a 58-yard punt that has to return for 29 yards. He had a 35-yard punt that has to return for 28 yards. And he had a 57-yard punt that has to return for 62 yards in a touchdown. The Packers on three punts had 31 net punt yards in that game. That's what I'd say. That's the thing.

It's not just a touchdown. Everyone's like, oh, it's this many touchdowns. It's those are first downs he generates just by himself. Just by a one-man team generating six extra first downs for you in a game. But that it just adds up. It's those hidden yards. And he's the king of it. I mean,

he also like that's the other thing. When he was a rookie soldier boy was, uh, uh, yes, I remember. Oh my God. They kept that song for him his entire career. And it's like, that's how you know a guy is like,

it's still cool because that's Devin Hester. It's like Mario Rivera and and her Sandman. It's the exact same thing. It's just... Be cornering of anyone else. How many NFL players have walk-on music? Yeah. It's just, there's nothing like that.

And it... To me, it's like not even a conversation. Like, I think that... I think he belongs. I think there's zero question that he should belong. I want to say this year is his first year of eligibility. Like, he should get in. Just like flat out, he should get it.

All right. Who's your next guy? Next guy is, I'm going to go with Tony Bisselli. and I'm using, like the Supreme Court, I'm using past case precedent for my argument for him. In my case here is Torell Davis because Tony Bissell only played 91 games. I actually didn't even know it was that little. That's shocking.

That's shocking. 91 games. He didn't even play 100 games. That kind of like, that actually was like, oh, wow, this is going to be a little more of a argument that I realized. But he only had three seasons total where he played all 16 games, like, period in his career. And only six seasons really in general, if you, it just kind of how that all adds up. But just like Terell Davis, Trell Davis only played for four seasons. Like really, if you look at

his stuff, he really was only a contributor for four seasons. So that's kind of why I'm using this. But Tony Bisselli was legitimately the prototype for the position, for the left tackle position. He was phenomenal. And I cannot over, overstate that enough. Like he, he had a longer career. We would talk about him as an all-timer. I mean, honestly, it was. him and Orlando Pace in that late 90s early 2000s. Were they drafted the same year? Besseli was earlier? So he was the second overall pick in 95.

And then Orlando Pace was the first overall pick in 97. So it was like, you know, it was the same era. Yeah. Same. But it was those two. I mean, those were your left tackles. And then Jonathan Ogden was the fourth overall pick in 96. What a fucking run.

Wow. Jesus. Wow. Not many like just, oh, good players. but no, all-time, all-time greats. Oh, my God,

Jonathan Ogden, if you want to talk about freaks, that people realize what he was at that position, too. I don't know. I've ever told you that story

when I was talking to Marshall Yondo once, and Yondo was telling me about his rookie year, and that was because Yonda's last, it was Ogden's last season in the NFL.

I want to hear it, though. Those old teams with the Ravens, and when Billick was still there, whenever that era, they would, under your plate in your locker, they would have all your pro bowls

listed. and like all accomplishments and augdens was like it was like 10 they had to add to it because he had every single year he went to the pro bowl and yanda comes in as a third round pick and he was like i hope i go to one pro bowl i hope i just get one in my career and now he's should pull out of that's a conversation it's like for a different time you know when you see those like old dictators you know they wear you know they wear the general uniforms even though they weren't military they got all the all the like awards and everything that same thing just Yeah, the same exact thing.

That's funny. Ogden's incredible. But Bousseli was too. That's the thing. Credentials-wise, five-time pro-ball are three-time first-team all-pro. So he just kind of misses. But the fact that he was playing at the same time as all those guys. And there's a couple other good left tackles at the time.

You know, Todd Stoosies of the world and all that. And shoot, there he is. Three-time first-team all pro. It was a no-brainer for an expansion franchise for the Jaguars. We've cracked jokes about the Jaguars right now. Imagine when they were an expansion team starting out in a college town basically. And no, no, knock the Jacks fan. Sorry. I like, I like my dad Simon Jacksonville. Sorry. I like Jacks Beach. Um, but anyways, it's, but that, that is just really what he was. And it's one of those guys, I wish truly, there's a reason the Texans took him one one in their expansion draft. I mean, there was. They had the right mindset. I think they just didn't look at the medical records as much as they should have and get beat up. But I really do think of a guy like Terrell Davis, who was a stud at his position or, you know, had that little four years. year peak, Besseli had a six year peak with five Pro Bowls. I mean, if we're going to use that

as a precedent, that's why I think he's a no-brainer to be in the Hall of Fame. Davis has the distinct advantage of having that short peak align with championship football. Correct. And I think that is the biggest thing is that with Davis, and I think the other guys that you could throw in here, Gail Sayers is obviously the most famous example of someone who was iconic, but only played for a few years and got into the Hall of Fame. There aren't that many other guys that fit that criteria. Terrell Davis is the best modern example by far. Kind of the Bill Walton argument.

Yes. Yes. And I always thought that Terrell Davis belonged in the Hall of Fame, I think, because when you're that shooting star and you dominate the league, I think you belong. I think, again, Terrell Davis in that short peak was the MVP of the NFL. Not only was he the best player in his position, he was arguably the best player in the sport at that time. think that is going to be the argument against Pacelli is that if he was merely the best left

tackle in the NFL for that five-year stretch, it's a, it's a harder road. It's a harder road to get there. But he's been close. I mean, he's been a finalist. He's knocking on the door. So I think that there's certainly momentum for him, which is good. And it does help him that, again, he's a member of the all-decade team. And when you got that, that is a huge credential for these guys, especially O-Liamond and D-Liamond. It really is. It's good. That's what helps this case. Being a member that all decade team really does matter. Like you said, some people might not care about this. I care about this shit.

I care about all pro votes. I care about that's why the Pro Bowl sometimes is a travesty. It's like, the pro bowl is a joke. It's a joke. Pro Bowl should not be used to this, but all pro does matter. And that's the thing is if we're going to make Pro Bowls, you know, a gray down, that's why like all pro. We talked about when we did our All Pro show.

It's like that's why I want that to be revamped and solidified because that shit matters in the long run because we look back at this and we look at this. And now we go, oh, well, he, he never even made all. all pro team. Who cares? But it's like, well, the voters messed up. They did this.

They did that. That's why, you know, we expand to three all pro teams. I can save this for a whole other show, but I, I kick around the, you know, any of those memes where it's like a guy explaining something to a girl,

like, you know, it's like a girl goes to face. That's me with all pro teams. I could go on full rants about like changing the voting and everything for that and how many teams there are. But for me, it's crazy with quarterbacks.

The idea that there's so many guys, including somebody we're going to get to on this show, that was never an all pro, quarterback just because there's only two. Only two. And it's, it's really, really difficult. Do you know that John Elway was never an all pro quarterback? John Elway was never a first team all pro quarterback.

I never knew. I actually thought he had one or two in there. I actually never knew that. Trust me, that would be a part of my argument for the guy we're getting to. You know what? Fuck it. Let's do it right now. Yeah, there we go.

Perfect segue. My next guy is Philip Rivers. And I, again, I'm a parody of myself and I don't care. And I know this is going to be a long way off. So I've had this conversation in various forms before, but I want to put it all right here in one place. The counting stats are obvious, right? He ranks fifth all time in passing yards, fifth all time,

and passing touchdowns. I don't care about that. I just don't care about that. That, to me, is not what should be at the core of his argument for being in the Hall of Fame, because I don't think compilers should get in the Hall of Fame. And I think people are going to look at his career and say he was a compiler.

he was just around for a long time. He played a lot of games. That doesn't mean he should belong in the Hall of Fame. I agree with that. That is not where my case for him would start. My case for him would start at other stats, other stats that dig a little bit deeper, okay? From 2006 to 2020,

61 quarterbacks in the NFL played at least 1,500 snaps. Among that group, Philip Rivers Bank's sixth in EPA per play. Okay, sixth of 61 guys. Here are the quarterbacks. ahead of Philip Rivers on that list. Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,

Aaron Rogers, and Drew Brice. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the guys ahead of him on that list. His draft mates, Rathusberger and Eli Manning, rank 12th and 35th,

respectively. Rivers is 6th. Even if we wanted to take out the latter years and cut it off at like 2015 when Rathusberger was still elite, Rivers is still ahead of him in that stat.

If you look at the Ben Rathesberger won two Super Bowls, congratulations. We were talking about this earlier this week. Ben Rathusberger went nine of 23 in the Super Bowl that he won, the first one. Okay? That is so funny.

It was a Super Bowl champ. It's like, you know, right. 9 of 23. Philip Rivers was not a compiler. He was one of the most efficient quarterbacks in NFL history. Yep. Chase Stewart pointed this out

the day that Philip Rivers retired. Only three quarterbacks. in the history of the sport have ever led the league in yards per attempt for three straight seasons. Kurt Warner, Steve Young, and Philip Rivers. From 2008 or 2010,

he led the NFL in yards per attempt. In his 14 years as a starting quarterback with the Chargers, the Chargers finishes the top 10 passing offense by DVOA 10 times. Solely because Philip Rivers was there, they were an elite passing offense every single year. Through coaching changes, through personnel changes, it didn't matter.

He had his down years. There was a stretch there where there were some dips. But when you get back into that like 2013 and beyond when Keenan Allen was there, when Austin Eckler eventually gets there, they were elite pretty much every single year. Year and year out, they were a top 10 passing offense. In 15 seasons as a starting quarterback, if you look at these error adjusted numbers that I appreciate, he posted an adjusted net yards per attempt of 115 plus, which is one standard deviation above,

one standard deviation above average, seven times. Seven times he was one standard deviation above an average quarterback. That is more than Dan Fouts, who is the perfect comparison to Phil Rivers. Not just because of the chargers, but career-wise, yes, that is a great comparison. And if we want to talk about the accolades and the all pros and whatever,

John Elway was never first team all pro. Just because Philip Rivers was never the best quarterback, and I understand I made this argument for Hester and I'll make it for someone else, that you should be the best player at your position in one of them. But just because Philip Rivers was never the best quarterback in the NFL, doesn't mean he's not one of the best quarterbacks ever. Because he played in the same era as all of the best quarterbacks in the history of the sport. Just because he was the sixth guy doesn't mean he's not the 15th best quarterback to ever play.

And I think that's the problem here. And if you want to point to the postseason success, I completely understand that. But like we said, Ravasberg was 9 of 21 for 123 and two picks in his first Super Bowl win. If Marlon McCree does not drop that ball after intercepting it in 2006, the Chargers absolutely can beat the Colts and beat the Bears and win a Super Bowl. If Nate Cating doesn't miss three field goals in the 09 divisional round, if Darrell Revis doesn't make an insane interception on that play. If Rivers doesn't tear his ACL. and go into that game against the Patriots with a real shot. And not only was Rivers hurt in that game,

Ledaia Thomason was hurt in that game, Antonio Gates was hurt in that game, and the torn ACL thing is part of his legend. That guy played 250 straight football games. It didn't matter what was wrong with him. And the consistency, the year in, the year out, excellence. And then if you just want to dig a little bit deeper into the details of the position, There were J.J. Watsett told this story after Rivers retired, that Rivers would point out where guys were misaligned defensively and tell them where they were supposed to be because of what was coming.

He was on that Brady and Manning level. When we had Wade Phillips on this show a couple months ago, here last month, he mentioned Philip Rivers in the same breath as those guys when you were preparing for them. I'm reading Jeff Duncan's book right now about Sean Peyton and Drew Brees, which is excellent. You guys should pick it up if you have it. And there's a story about Bree's throwing a ball where every single defense, there's like five defensive players between him and where he's throwing the ball, but he knows the way that they're going to eventually dissipate. Yeah.

So he watches it unfold. Rivers had a throw at that last year where he throws a ball on a deep crossing route and just, it's insane that he lets the ball go. He is, in my opinion, I think the best anticipatory thrower I've probably ever seen at throwing the ball into open space when,

When he lets it go, it makes no sense that he's throwing the ball. Just like all the crossers. I mean, that's the corner. And the corner arts. Well, yeah, he's the best corner out there or whatever. Yeah, corners, sales and crossers. I mean, and crossers, it might be just a little five-year-art throw. Those are freaking hard to throw.

Because you have to get up and over the junk right in front of you and then also lead the guy who's running full speed. And there might be junk in front of him. So you have to find a spot. And that's exactly why he's perfect. Those are touch throws. Those are him just going, boom. It's just laying.

It's like a little tapping a put and just reading the break on it. That's exactly what he does. And yeah, I completely agree. He's the best throwing out those. And I want to agree with your point, too, just because he played at the same time as other all-time grades, doesn't mean he's not an all-time grade.

We don't knock Clyde Drexler for playing at the same time as MJ. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's still an all-time player. Like, he was truly a really fantastic player. Just because he played the same time as MJ, it doesn't mean we're going to knock Clyde. You know, it's just same exact things.

It's more, it's not just one guy has to be king of the hill always. I think we have that conception. Even sometimes I'm part of it. Oh, he's part of an elite group, all that stuff. But Philip Rivers day and day out, I mean, everybody in the league respects him. And that matters because that kind of shows the people in the no go, because he's, as Kyle Shannon said, no, I don't know him, but he's a baller. You know, that's his exact quote about Phil Rivers. I go, do you know, we were talking about something.

You know Philip at all? And he goes, oh, no, I don't know him. I just know he's a baller. And I mean, literally that's what he said. That's incredible. Dan Quinn, the talking about the Seahawks coaches when they came to Atlanta, they said he was the hardest guy to prep for because he's willing to check it down because he knew what beat the defense.

And every defensive coach hated that because he's willing to do it. And he's willing to put the ball on the money and how cerebral he was. I mean, yeah, I love Philip Rivers. I'm total agreement. I think you should be an easy hallfamer, but I'm not the one voting. Maybe Lindsey Jones could put one in for us. I think the other thing that people forget about him is that later in his career, he was a real junk ball pitcher, right?

He couldn't run. His arm strength that deteriorated. If you go watch those, like, 2008 teams, when it's him throw into, like, Vincent Jackson and Michael Floyd, they're just launching the ball down the field. Those North Turner teams, they're pumping the ball down the field.

So much fun. So much fun. I think people forget that. Like, those offenses back then were so dangerous and so explosive. Yeah. And it's almost just like a footnote in his history because people just remember,

like the Jake Cutler arguments and it just yeah I don't know it the way he carried himself almost feels like a detriment in some ways to the way that the general fan talks about him because he's almost more of a meme than than an elite quarterback at this point and it just I don't know well he never got hurt he never missed a game so no one saw the shit that he was around sometimes yes he never got hurt we never got last year it helped me not help me but people that like dack you got to see the Cowboys without DAC. We've never got to see the Chargers without Phil. It was just because he was always there, always this guy and everything.

The offensive line fell apart year after year. And he is, he is getting those guys right. There was guys that wouldn't even sniff a practice squad that were starting like eight games for him. And there he is, guy in their protections, literally telling every single guy what to do. And then just putting a ball on the money to Antonio Gates and get another third down, Danny Woodhead. He made all these guys like, he just. just all these different pieces that came across his career. And I'm glad he brought the Norav Turner example because that's what was so cool watching

Philip Rivers going from all these under center play action stuff. And, you know, stepping up, seven step drops, Ellison operating from the gun every single snap and pointing everything out. Like he was able just to adjust because as Kyle Shannon put, he's a baller. I mean, he was able to do that. He was so smart and so accurate that it just adjusted. It was scheme proof. And that's what the best players are.

They're scheme proof. I think what he did last year. is such a feather in his cap for who he wants to the player to go and I'm obviously he knew the scheme but he didn't know the players yeah that there's a guys that he's just walking in they finished 10th and waited DVOA on offense it gets another another top 10ish offense because he's there and it just I think that speaks so much to what he is as a quarterback and it wasn't great right away but it's not going to be great away there was no off season he's never seen these guys before they've never been in that city for more than a week you know I just, to me, he is, I think he is closer to those all-time great elite guys than he is to the pack. I think much, much closer. And I think if you look at a lot of the numbers, they will dictate that exact thought. So I think Phil Rivers blogs in the Hall of Fame. I know it's going to be a tough road for him to get there five years from now when he's eligible.

But I 100% believe it. All right. Man. Who's your next guy? Did you see the clips of him coaching his high school, too? No, I haven't. sure they're great i saw one little video it's awesome man he'd probably be the greatest high school coach ever because he's so positive you know he's he's actually he loves the game but not in that

meat head like right we just want it more you know it's more actually he's you can see him he's just so passionately teaching these it's really it's really cool just fine yeah they had one little video someone someone tweeted a few weeks ago it was really cool watching them like get with these kids it was awesome but anyway favorite thing about talking to him about football is that he could never help himself he can't you would you just be having a regular conversation with him and his tone would just keep going up and up and up and he would just be describing these plays and it's just he can't help himself he just he loves it and when you're around somebody that loves it it's impossible exactly it's impossible to not pick up on that and feed off of that

and he was one of my favorite people to have a football conversation with i'm going to miss him being a part of the league but i just hope that as the years go by and we get more distance from his career that people don't forget how truly great he was he wasn't just a GIF. He was a truly great quarterback and I will do everything I can to make sure people 10 years from now remember that. I love it. M.C. Central teams and Philip Rivers. We're good. That's me, man. That's my life. That's good. We're good. All right. So guy number three slash four for me is Torrey Holt. And I never thought if you told a 12 year old Nate Tice, I'd be making an argument for Tori Holt and the greatest show on turf Rams. I would have no way out of the way. Did you not like

those teams? It was because they, I felt like they're threatening the Vikings best offense label. That's, oh, that makes total sense. And that when I was a kid, that's all I cared about, especially when my dad was just the offensive coach. That's all I cared about was sack numbers and points scored, baby, and how many touchdowns Randy's getting. My thing with those teams always was I love them in year one and I hated them in year two because at that point I was like, oh, we're talking about them way too much. Like, I'm not into this anymore. So I wanted the Rams to be the Titans and then I wanted them to lose to the Patriots. I wanted the Packers to beat the Patriots but lose to the Broncos.

That's always how I was growing up. I wanted the new thing all the time. That makes sense. I make sense. Or yeah, even when, uh, no, that's all of those. I was the same way, especially with the uniform change. Uh, because I love those old Rams unis. And then they switched to the new ones and there was so much easier to make them the bad guys

when they switched. The gold. That's exactly. what it was. The gold, the gold rams I did not like and the yellow rams I love. That's, that's kind of how I was. But I mean, they're like, I mean, even though it was a breakout season, Kurt Warner, we're in the MVP and everything. But they had their, uh, divisional round playoff game against the Vikings when Jeff George was a quarterback in 99. And it was a track meet. I mean, I think the final score was like 48, 30 or something like that. And I mean, the Vikings were never even in it. But it was like, honestly, watching that team just destroy the Vikings defense was like, it. hurt me. It was what I've never felt more hopeless watching a game because it's like, it didn't matter how many points we were scoring. The other team was truly going to score one point more. Um, I think it was I, what were the stats in that game. Are you looking at it off? No, no, no, no. Okay. I thought you were so time. But anyways, but in that game, Torrey hole,

back to Tori hole. Um, credentials wise, seven pro bowls, one first team all pro, one second team all pro. Tori Holt almost like got to an underrated kind of portion of his career because he was playing at the same time as a as some legit star star star of all stars you got there are 880 total yards in that game it was so much it was if i was a neutral fan have probably been just if we had this podcast then as a neutral fan would have been such a game we've been so excited about that game six turnovers god wild game wow i think i think of oh and jeff george was quarterback so jeff george would just drop back like a seven step drop it was either he's launching it and he would have a a clock in his head.

If he hit four seconds, he drops down. It takes a sack. He wasn't taking a hit. He was just drop. So I think he took like six sacks that game, too. It was four, but yeah, it was four. It felt more. He did throw for 423 yards and four touchdowns.

That game was, I'm telling me, that game was ridiculous. Tori, though, part of those offenses, he was a rookie in 99. And he led the league in yards twice and receptions once. And his 2003 year is an all-time sneaky, like, a sneaky all-time great receiver year. He had 117 receptions, 16,96 yards, and 12 touchdowns. I mean, this is over at the same time. T.O. is in the league.

Randy Moss is in the league. Marvin Harrison. Even the very good guys, like Heinz Ward. Like, he was above and beyond all that. This is the same time. Moss had a huge year in 2003 as well. I think it was the first time ever. Someone had, I think it was, he had over 100 catches.

is and you average over 100 yards and a touchdown a game. I think Moss did that year. But that kind of speaks to Tori Holt. Tori Holt was doing all these great things. Oh, yeah, but he also had to worry about Randy Moss and T.O. And Marvin Harrison setting reception records and all those types of thing. Just a model of consistency. He's kind of one of those guys that was very good at everything.

He tested real well. He was a fast guy, but he was a great route runner. He had good hands. He also had the funky finger. If you remember that. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that broke in like three different directions. From 2000 through 2000.

2007, at least 82, at least 81 catches and at least 1188 receiving yards in every single season. Model of consistency. That's what he was. He's kind of, if I had to compare him to somebody, he was a better version of like a Calvin Ridley. Like I think that might be in my head, like a better version of that, but that or just like the idealized version of that. He just did everything really, really well. And I think some of it is he was in a certain time when there's other awesome receivers. and receivers that brought a lot of attention to themselves.

Tori Holt was more of a competitive dude as opposed to a talker. You know, and yeah, like he had personality and everything, but not to these other guys that came along at that time. And it's just I think it's funny. I've argued against receivers in a lot of ways, but I think Tori Holt is legitimately one of the best receivers I've known, watched like throughout their career. It's just that he was in the time.

Same thing we're talking about Philip Rivers with quarterbacks. just in the time when receivers took a big leap into these iconic positions with a lot of all-time players, he was right there with him. It's just that he's kind of the other guy. It just, he kind of got into that space, like where guys just don't talk about as much as he did. But if you watch this guy, he is an incredible player. He has the stats behind him, a model of consistency. He did it more than the presidential term.

Seven Pro Bowls back, you know, okay, yeah, we didn't argue with Pro Bowl. But he does have the first team all pro, which helps, and the second team all pro, which helps the credentials. just a really, really great player. And I do think he's kind of the parameter for me. Like that would be the bar for receivers is kind of Tori Holt. Like Tori Holt is kind of in that art monk kind of realm of receivers. You know, it's like, you know, these just extremely good, but there's other more iconic guys at the same time.

But just a just a great player. I think a huge argument in his favor is that his best season, that 2003 season, was with Mark Bulger at quarterback. Yeah. The idea that obviously he's part of those iconic greatest show on turf teams, but it's not as though he was just a guy next to Kurt Warner his entire career that was catching passes from Kurt Warner. He was catching passes from Mark Bulger for that entire 2003 through 2005 stretch when he's still putting up double-digit touchdowns, 1,300 receiving yards, and 95 catches this season.

I think that's a huge point in his favor. And that is also after Isaac Bruce. It's not as though he was just the second banana to Isaac Bruce. There was also a stretch of his career when Bruce was very much on the tail end. He was in his early to mid-30s. And you have Tori Holt, who is one of, if not the best receiver in the league, for stretches during that time. So I think it's so easy to think, oh, you know, he was, again,

Isaac Bruce, Marshall Fall, Kurt Warner. He was just another guy on those teams. And when the Rams weren't as great and weren't as exciting in like 2003, 2004, 2005, he was still doing exactly what he was doing before, if not better. I know. And that's what, I mean, you just even look at it broke down. Like you, you did it over like the average, but 1600 yards, 1,300 yards, 1,300 yards, 1,300 yards, 1,600 yards. And it's TDs with it too. And it's like time after time.

He was just the model consistency. And it's just his do it was the fact that he was a rookie for that first Super Bowl year is like, maybe okay, he's not as that you don't have that like memory of like that. I kind of, you remember Kurt Warner, Marshall Falkmore than anything, right? Or Dick Vermeal crying when, uh, Trent Green got hurt, you know, right? That's kind of what you remember the year is Kurt Warner hugging his wife and all that. They're making a movie about it. Uh, oh my God, you see the trailer for that movie, by the way?

I still haven't watched it. I still haven't watched it and don't know if I will. It's, it's, it's, I want to support it, man, but it's, it's rough. It's rough. It's really rough. Even the jerseys look like, they look like they look like they're from a commercial, you know, where people have to wear the off-brand, you know, ram stuff, but like the jerseys, like the numbering doesn't even look right.

It's bad. And they're actually making the actor throw the ball and like, which is a terrible idea. Terrible. And they're showing, they actually showed his path of the throws, like rather, by him throwing and then you see the completion, you actually see the ball in the air. So it's like he's throwing like duck corners and stuff like, oh, it's great. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've had good laughs watching that a couple times.

I do like that actor, though. But anyway, I like the stuff he's in. I've always enjoyed him. I like Chuck. He's great. Chuck, Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.

He's a great, like a little boyfriend character in that. Yeah. Yeah. I like, I like that actor. Oh,

Shazam. Shazam was pretty entertaining. Yeah. But anyways, Tori Holt, uh, Tori Holt's my third or third and a half page. Do you remember that he was,

I didn't remember that he wore 88 early in his career. Did not either. I just remember him in the 81. That's so strange that he wore 88 for the first three years of his career. Messed me up a little bit. Not going to lie. Yeah. I,

uh, because I, because I was watching some stuff this past week to prep for this. And I was like, oh, this guy, this is a bad YouTube highlight. They have, like, they have somebody else in this highlights. And it's like, oh, no, that's story holds. All right. My last guy here, speaking of presidential terms, is Patrick Willis.

And this is as simple as it gets for me, okay? Patrick Willis, five-time first team all pro pro pro pro. Okay. That's good, good right there. Calvin Johnson six time pro bowl three time first team all pro if Calvin Johnson is a first ballot

Hall of Famer how is Patrick Willis not a Hall of Famer yep I just to me it's that simple I don't even know what else you have to say outside of that clearly on the all decade team was easily the best linebacker of that generation from 07 through when Keeckley came into the league

the best off ball linebacker in the entire league he led the NFL and stops the PFF stat from 2007 through 2012 when he was in the NFL. He also, I believe, had the most pass as defense among offball linebackers during that same stretch. That's crazy. In 2011, when that era of the Niners defense starts, right? Because that's what Harbaugh gets there and that's when Fangio gets there. And Navarro Bowman's in his second season then.

That little three-year stretch there. He was top 10 in the league in reception percentage allowed win in coverage, yards per completion allowed winning coverage, and led the NFL and past breakups among off-ball linebackers that year. He did everything. He did everything. Every aspect of his game was elite when he was playing his best. He was underrated as a pass rusher.

He was really, really good. That sentence right there is the best way to describe Patrick Wells. He was the elite at literally everything. When you watch it, because I think there are a lot of guys in this. era at that position where they're, they're tackling machines, they play the run well, but they're block slippers. Yep.

They are, they're smaller guys, so they're dipping under and they're, they're able to avoid contact. And that's a skill of itself. It's incredibly impressive. Yeah. Patrick Willis could run you the fuck over.

Oh, he would run you over. He was a legit 245, and he was going to sit there, and he was going to run your ass over. And that just is not the way that most linebackers play, because most linebackers play now,

when you have a guy that runs sideline to sideline the way that he did, he ran a 45-140-2 pounds at the combine. When you have somebody with that type of movement skills, that's what we ascribe to them is that slipping blocks, just finesse game. There was nothing finesse about the way Patrick Willis played the position for the most part in the run game. And I think that was what was so impressive.

And then you'd watch him in coverage. The way he could just turn and run in the middle. of the field into the deep half, into the deep middle of the field the same way that Brian Erlocker used to, just guys that very few players can play that role in last. And then just the awareness and coverage. I was watching a little bit today of the 2011 season and the Cardinals tried to get him on a little jerk route with Andre Roberts, which is, in theory, a mismatch, right? That's an advantage.

You have your slot receiver one-on-one in the middle of the field against the 245-pound what they're designed to play for probably, too. like, no problem. This guy. Yep. No problem. Just like stays with the stutter, is able to accelerate and pick back up with him and just

swallows him for an incompletion. And that stuff just shows up all the time. And I think that if we're talking about you're standing at your position within the league, the hierarchy, if you define a position for four to five years and you play for, he went to the Super Bowl. He played for a team that ended up being really, really good by the tail end of his career. The teams before that, the Mike Singletary years and everything else, those teams were terrible. I watched a game today.

Get rid with them. That involved Troy Brown and 2010 Sam Bradford. Roger Saffold was the Rams starting left tackle as a rookie. It was insane. Just the players on the field in that game, it was a real throwback. Dude's talking about all the little football players classics right there. And the idea that even after that, when those teams were. bad. You had this couple years stretch in 2011 and 2012 and we could to see him on the biggest

stage and you remember him with Navarro Bowman. And it has everything. He checks every single box to me. And I understand he didn't play for that long. But again, if Calvin Johnson is a first ballot hall of famer, then I don't understand why Patrick Willis is not going to be a hallfamer. He was a finalist this year. I have faith that he ultimately will get in. But to me, there is not a box. He doesn't check. The longevity isn't there. Fine. He was a five time first team all pro and deservedly so. Like, it was elite, elite, elite for that entire stretch. And with Calvin Johnson, Calvin Johnson didn't come in in the league and tear the roof off.

He had 700 receiving yards. He's like, oh, he's going to be good. Yeah, it's like, he's going to be good. Yeah. Patrick Willis was the best linebacker in the NFL from the moment he walked into the league. I didn't realize he was a first team all pro as a rookie. I knew he was really good. I knew he was a pro lover's rookie, not first team all pro as a rookie.

Those are the guys. The no doubt about her. You know it when you see it, guys. Define the position. Joe Thomas. And same draft, right? That draft had a lot of those guys. Adrian Peterson, Joe Thomas, Doreau Revis, Patrick Willis.

I mean, that is an all-time great draft for guys that defined their position. And I think that he belongs in the same breath as any single one of those guys. He is a no doubt about it Hall of Famer for me. Man, that's like a sneaky stack draft. I'm looking at it right now. Marshall Yonda was in that draft. Greg Olson. Greg Olson was in that draft.

DeRoe Rieves was in that draft. Marshaun Lynch was in that draft. It was incredible draft. That is, even like guys like who was. Calvin Johnson was the second overall pick. Joe Thomas was the third overall pick. Do you remember who the first overall pick was? Yeah, I do actually.

It's Characus Ruster, Mr. Jamarcus Russell, right? I'm not even looking at this, by the way. I'm just pulling all this. That's an amazing draft. It really is. I pulled it up right out. I got Paul Puzzlew.

That's the name I haven't seen in a while. Eric Weddle was in that draft. Eric Weddow was in that draft. The Bears also wanted him in the second round. I'm not getting him. I again, like Patrick Willis, I think he was the 10th pick, right? Willis was the 11th. 11th pick.

So, yeah, it was right there. And again, just the best player from the moment he stepped on to the field. Him and Erlocker, like, in that stretch. That was right when Erlocker started his tail off a little bit. Yep. It was like that 07 season. It's like there only can be won. That's exactly right.

It goes down. You walk in, you take the crown, and then Willowel seven. Lewis came in, or Keeakley came in in 2012. And that's exactly when Lewis started to go down a little tiny bit. Now we got Fred Warner coming up. And Bobby Wagner also came into the league in 2012. That's another one.

It was, it's a perfect passing of the torch. But for that mini stretch in like when Ray Lewis and Erlacher aging and then before Kekley, that is Patrick Willis's time. He owns the position in those five years. Just even like box score looking at it. Like his own nine year was insane. the league in tackles. He had 11 QB hits, four sacks, eight passes deflected, three force fumbles, three

interceptions, including one for a TD. Like, it's just a human wrecking ball. Just a wrecking ball. If you want a two-way player, it's not just, and that's the thing is like, you can really tell a lot by TFLs too, like just just a little bit with some of these guys and kind of like seeing, okay, is he actually, it's not the five-yard tackle. Like it's second and three. They tackle them two yards past the sticks.

It's actually stop. It stops. like the stat. It's actually efficient tackling. It's like, there was a play I watched today. Again, they played the Giants

during the regular season in 2011. They ultimately lost to the Giants in the NFC championship game that day or that year. One of the weirdest games I remember watching. I watched it in Vegas. I remember watching Kyle Williams dropped that punt.

And then that was the week after, it was the week after they played the Saints in the playoffs in that insane Alex Smith and Drew Breeze game. Anyway. That was a fun playoffs. Like that whole. Really, really fun. Yeah.

It was my first year. Grantland, it was really, really fun. I was 23 years old. I was just living the life. So they played the Giants that year during the regular season. The Giants had to lined up in splitbacks. And they motioned the full back into essentially like a little off ball slot on the left side. Like, oh, we have an advantage now.

We have the bodies. And they ran a power play to the left. So they pulled the right guard. And Willis was on that side. Did not work. As soon as the guard pulls. He just takes the grass. And at this point, he's five years deep into his career.

Like, it's, and four-yard loss just drags Brandon Jacobs down and had absolutely no chance. Oh, yeah. And it's tackling Brandon Jacobs, too. That's understated. 260, 270-pound Brandon Jacobs. And that's the thing. And it's the same as Kekley. It's the same as Wagner.

It's the same as these guys who are true grades at the position. It's the splash plays are there, right? Devin White has splash plays. But when you're also. sound and in the right place every single play. And you combine that with this otherworldly physical ability. That's when you become the best linebacker in football. That's what he was for five years.

That to me is a whole affair. And I always love talking to the smartest linebackers. Like that's why I love Chris Borland. Because Chris Borland is so cerebral that I love just, what did you see? Like what? Because they have their rules and keys and everything. But they go rogue and see things too. And that's what Paul Chris.

always had stories about Junior Seowow out and working with him. And it would just be like, because he would blow something up. And then he'd be like, hey, hey, junior, what'd you see there? And then he'd be like, oh, shit, Polly, you know, I saw the guard light on his feet. The last time you're in that formation, you did this and the last time the running back looked like just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, okay, but that brain and then also 250 pounds, it could run a, you know, a legit

four, five, four six. It's like these guys are freaks of not just physical ability, but the mental, how seeing everything, the spatial awareness these guys have is just it's so much fun and that's why it's like i love seeing these top linebackers when they when they're rolling and they can just do stuff like that because it's one of the more fun things to watch in football awesome all right that's all we got just dudes talking about old football players we are memes of ourselves but you know what the fact that we had already planned this and then that tweet went viral i feel okay about it it's not as if We decided to do this after we saw that.

We planned to do this for an entire week. Yeah. This will be coming to you guys on Wednesday. This is it. This is our last podcast before training camp. I am hitting the road on the 27th of July. That will, we will have a show for you that day. So the plan from here through week one, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, every week.

Three shows a week. We're going to be coming to you guys with check-ins from every single camp on going to. I think I'm hitting 16 teams. Between now and the start of the season, I'm living out of a suitcase and a car, my friend. It is going to be a lot of mileage. I'm really looking forward to it. Be prepared for that. We're going to have guests from different teams.

We're going to have writers from the athletic. We're bringing a ton of stuff to you guys starting next week. I hope you're excited. I certainly am. So that is going to be the cadence when we get to camp. And it's going to be here before you know it. That is the last time I'll be talking to you guys. Or that is the next time we'll be talking to you guys.

So please enjoy the weekend. Please enjoy your last little refuge here of non-football summer. We'll be back next week with our first little slice of training camp coverage. We're actually, our first show back next week is going to be me and Mike Sando talking about his quarterback tears. Because that comes out first thing next week. So we're going to dig into all things QB tiers. It's one of my favorite things to read every single year. He puts an immense amount of work into it.

I always love it. So we're going to dig into that first. And then it's going to be camp. time. So thank you guys so much for listening. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. This is your last chance to do that before things get crazy and you forget when the season starts. So please do that. Please subscribe to the athletic. I wrote about Baker Mayfield last week. I will be writing a lot. Now the training camp is starting. I've got a few things that I'm currently working on. So please subscribe. It's athletic.com slash football show. You will not

regret it. There is no way you can keep up with camp if you do not have an athletic description. It is a necessity if you want to keep up with everything that's going to be happening. Depth charts. You guys are starting your fantasy football prep. You're going to know who looks good, who doesn't, what the starting lineups look like. Who's working with the first team? There's all stuff that you can get from every single writer at the athletic. I highly recommend you pick that up if you're starting your prep.

We'll be back with you guys next week. Until then, thank you guys so much for listening. We'll talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.