The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Cardinals new GM, Sean McVay stays, Brandon Staley's future, and more in the post-Wild Card Weekend roundup

Episode Date: January 17, 2023

While 14 teams spent the week getting ready for, and kicking off, the playoffs, the NFL news wheel kept on spinning. Robert Mays and Mike Sando discuss Arizona's hiring of Monti Ossenfort as GM, the state of the Ravens, and coordinator changes on this episode of The Athletic Football Show. They also welcome Jourdan Rodrigue and Daniel Popper to the show to discuss the head coaches running the show for both of the league's L.A. franchises.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Mike on Twitter: @SandoNFLFollow Jourdan on Twitter: @JourdanRodrigueFollow Daniel on Twitter: @danielrpopperSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's show is brought to you by...Philo: Sign up today at philo.tv and use promo code MAYS to get 50% off your first monthBurrow: Show Burrow you’re listening to The Athletic Football Show by shopping at Burrow.com/mays and get 10% off your first orderLinkedIn: LinkedIn Jobs helps you find the qualified candidates you want to talk to, faster. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com/maysMizzen + Main: Go to mizzenandmain.com and use promo code MAYS, to receive $35 off any regular-price order of $125 or more1:55 Cardinals hire Monti Ossenfort as GM12:57 Something's rotten in Baltimore24:40 Panthers interviewing DC candidates27:47 Jim Harbaugh staying at Michigan31:53 Sean McVay sticking with the Rams56:19 Brandon Staley's future with the Chargers Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today a little bit later. Our Rams writer at the Athletic Jordan Roderig is going to join us to talk about the latest Sean McVeigh's decision to return to the Rams for the 20-23 season. Really enjoyed our conversation with Jordan. Then Daniel Popper, who covers the Chargers for us, is going to give us the breakdown

about where their coaching staff situation is after a pretty nightmarish excursion to Jacksonville on Saturday. Again, enjoyed our conversation with Daniel. Looking forward to you guys hearing both of those discussions. Before we do that, though, I am thrilled to welcome the Athletic Zone. Mike Sando, Mike, how you doing? I am doing well, Robert. Good to be here.

So let's talk about just some things that are looming storylines, I guess, over the weekend and from the last few days. We're going to talk about some coaching things. We're going to talk about a couple items from your pick six column about teams that lost yesterday. But let's begin with a bit of news that broke right before we started recording this. The Arizona Cardinals have a new general manager. Moni Asenfort, who is the Titans director of player personnel for the last three seasons after a long stint in New England, is now the Arizona Cardinals general manager. Mike, your first reaction to this. I didn't know they were that close to making a hire.

So if you'd asked me, hey, what do you think of Monty Austin Fort with the Cardinals? You know, I would have said it, well, I mean, he's a good candidate. So I kind of like it, though, because I think he's, I don't know him, but I've done a little homework on him, and I've compiled in the past lists of GM candidates and published that. And so I've done a little reporting work on him. I've just heard that he's really solid. And so he is a former small college quarterback at Minnesota Morris. He's a, I think, a Midwest guy.

He interviewed for the GM job with the Giants and the Vikings last year, previously with the Panthers. previously with the Browns. You got two interviews with the Bears, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Yep, the Panthers and Browns have interviewed him. Even before that, Gall, the Patriots saved his life. When the Texans tried to talk to him in 2018,

they denied that he could go interview for the GM job of the Texans. His whole life could be upside down if he had taken that job. But 15 seasons with the Patriots, six as college scouting director. He has four Super Bowl rings, 17 winning records to show for 15 years with the Patriots, three with the Titans. Also is with Houston.

I texted a friend of mine who knows him. And I said, hey, give me the scouting report on Austin Fort. And he said, excellent human being who relates well with people, not a self-promoter, great to see him get this job, has worked with the Patriots and under John Robinson. So he has seen a couple different ways that it works because Robinson did things his own way. But just a good person. And so, you know, look, we're not going to do character tests here. But when you look at what they have been through in Arizona, you know, with,

obviously the disconnect between the head coach and the quarterback, the issues with the quarterback, which are kind of, you know, you need someone skilled to relate to him with what's going on. And then the general manager, Steve Kheim, you know, had had had an arrest a couple of years ago. There was there was all kinds of that type of stuff going on. So it sounds like a pretty, you know, a solid, potentially modest guy going in there who's going to be collaborative. So I think it will be interesting to see maybe it's a, as a college scouting, director background, is he going to be more in the draft and develop to sort of take our time? Remember, we had talked last week, Robert, about would they leave Vance Joseph in the role for a year?

When I see this hire come in, is Mane-Auston-Fort going to take a year to look at the lay of the land, right? And maybe it does enhance the chances for Vance Joseph. I don't know that. Or is he going to come in and just, you know, have his hire right away and go? I think I could see it going the first way possibly, but it's early. And 24 hours ago, I had no idea this was going to happen. So we have to sort of figure it out and maybe take some cues from him.

I'm sure there'll be a news conference. But those are just kind of my first impressions. The first instinct when all of these things happen is to look at where that person was and what the decisions that were made at those places looked like. Who were the players drafted in New England when he was the head of college scouting? What did Tennessee do with those drafts? I don't really care that much about that. LaFleur was the offenses in Tennessee, one year he was there, weren't very good. I think that we do this all the time with these candidates and I just don't think it's the best way to do it because we don't know. My first couple reactions here, I think it's twofold. One, he's a scouting guy. That's where he comes from. That is an interesting detail about the decision. We've seen guys with differing sorts of backgrounds start to get these jobs and going with like a true dyed in the wall area scout who worked his way up. That is a specific way to attack this. job and it's interesting that the Cardinals went that way.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but that clearly is the direction they wanted to go. The other thing I feel like is really, really interesting here and kind of the defining part about this choice, they went with someone who was outside the organization. And that may not seem overly notable for most teams. Mike, the last three GMs of this team, dating back to 1996, all three of them were internal guys that were promoted to the general manager job. Steve Kime, Rod Graves before him, Bob Ferguson before that. We're talking about 30 years.

The last guy who was the GM of this team who wasn't promoted internally was Buddy Ryan when he was the coach there. I mean, that's insane. But that is how this organization has traditionally done business. That's a great. You get a Bob Ferguson reference into your man. I covered him going way back. That's a great reference. I do not know who that is, but I'm glad that it struck and growing with you.

Yeah, going outside the building. That's a great point, Robert, because you're right. And so many times we on the outside or people on the outside make the mistake in, you know, evaluate and what a team is going to do by only looking at what would be the most logical candidate or the strongest candidate. And so much of what matters is the relationship and the comfort level. And so a lot of times the owner of the team, Mike Bidwell in this case, has a comfort level with certain people. And he wants them in the building. And it's hard to bring someone in from the outside who doesn't know how, quote unquote, we do it in Arizona. So that will be an interesting part of that because, like, I think Mike Bidwell has generally done a good job of advancing the franchise that he took over from his father, Bill Bidwell.

When Bill Bidwell and the team, really nice man, but, you know, they were known for being extra cheap and not always doing things the right way. And I think Mike Bidwell came in and modernized them and they've grown some businesses and they got the stadium built. And I'm not saying it's the, you know, the greatest organization. but, you know, when Ken Wisenhunt came in from the outside, if you go back to that time, you know, my perception at that time was that he was coming, I think, from Pittsburgh and was able to get... The hottest candidate you could be at that time with where the Steelers were. Where the Steelers were. And I think it took a lot of work for someone coming from the outside to advance the franchise a little bit.

And they got to the Super Bowl, you know, and obviously Kurt Warner was a big part of that. So this is interesting to me from a front office standpoint. really haven't had that. Like you would see, like I would say that, you know, maybe Denny Green came in and didn't quite get that then, but Wizzina kind of moved the chains a little bit. And they got to a Super Bowl for the first time. And now you have that from a, you know, a higher level point of the organization. And I think that will be interesting to see. Because is this going to be, is there going to be a little bit more of a, you know, a New England or or just a Moni-Austin flavor or whatever that is as compared to fitting

in just with the way they do things. You think of Adrian Wilson there. You think of Quentin Harris. Those guys were talked about for this job. We'll see, do they keep roles? Do they have voices? What kind of a footprint does Austin Ford get to make there? All very interesting. You said talking about the way that we do things here. What this says to me is they're reevaluating what that means. We're going to kind of go back and think about the way we do things here, why we do them here. This to me is a symbol and kind of a declaration that maybe the status quo is not what's best for us, and we need to reevaluate some of this. We'll see what that means about the roster, where a real tear-down, I think, feels possible,

even though you have the quarterback in place. So it kind of feels like this is a move that puts a lot of different paths on the table for the Cardinals moving forward. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that is what it feels like to me at the very least. Yeah. I'm kind of excited for it. I'm kind of interested to see how it's different, and maybe we'll find out it's not, but maybe we find out as well.

And it's just a different flavor for the first time in a long time, right? I mean, Steve Kime for a long time, Rod Graves for a long time, general manager of this team. So it is fresh. And I guess the lingering question now beyond what the roster is going to look like because of this is who the coach is going to be. And the easiest connection to make is that they have requested an interview with Brian Flores, who I'm sure Moniasin Fort knows from their time together in New England.

Is that a pairing that makes sense? We have no idea. We don't know if they like to work. with one another if they want to work with each other. But I think that's the easiest jump to make after this move. My gosh, I would love that. I mean, Brian Flores is so no nonsense. And to have Ryan Flores there with Kyler Murray would be outstanding.

You just want fireworks. I mean, no, that's not even fireworks. I mean, it's just, it's Brian Flores's team. He's a very strong personality. And, you know, now if they were to do that, I would want to, say, look, the way that we had in Miami defensively, let's do that. But offensively, where we had the multiple coordinators and some of that stuff that even Bill Belichick did this year, no, we need to have, and I'm sure Brian Flores has probably learned from that, right?

Let's get a clearly defined offensive coordinator. I'm sure he can play in the vision of the head coach, but we need to have that squared away. But I think Fores would be, now that would really be different in Arizona. No matter who they hire, they're not going to hire a guy who has it figured out like Cliff Kingsbury. That's all I got to say. That man knows exactly what he's about. That report over the weekend for Peter Schrager about him, by it a one-way ticket to Thailand.

Just an undying amount of respect from this side of the table for that guy. That guy has it figured out. I absolutely love it. Just salute to you, my friend. Enjoy your time in Phuket. And like made it known. Like, yeah, I'm not really returning calls. Yeah, oh, you got an offer?

I'm not even really going to be discussing that. I'm telling you, the guy is like 41 years old. You know, he's made a decent amount of money. He's getting paid millions of dollars for the next five years from this organization. Why not go live in Thailand for a little while and just enjoy yourself? He's got to figure it out. I have so much respect for Cliff Kingsbury. I wonder if that ticks off the owner more because, you know, to know that he's paying him for that, right?

I mean, sometimes you get, the guy goes on. There's offsets involved or whatever. Now he's got to know. If I were Kingsbury, I would probably do. like a weekly post on some sort of social platform, have a big following. Why go to Thailand if you're not going to do that? That's half of the reason that you go. That's great. Awesome. All right. Next thing here that I think we have to dig into. You led your pick six column with us today, which I totally understand because it's obviously going to be an object of

fascination here until we get an answer. And that's what Lamar Jackson's future looks like in Baltimore. We touched on this a little bit with Nate last night, but just kind of walk me through what you think are the most interesting parts of this dynamic and your read on it right now after the way the last month and the half is gone. We just talked about, you know, Kyler Murray and the head coach. I think that that that head coach quarterback thing is real. And the more I think about it and just kind of thinking about this thing overnight, you know, it does just feel like the head coach and the quarterback are on different pages. You know, I didn't, I should have, I should have probably had a section on this in the column, but you get extra time to think about it. I was talking to a coach

today who said, you know, this is sort of what you get when there's not an agent involved. And what I mean by that is, you know, these things can become personal. You have somebody like John Harbaugh who is in charge and is an old school coach in a lot of ways. I referenced in the column, you know, 10 years ago, he sort of got sideways with Ed Reed. There was, there was dispute in the locker room over how much, how hard practices were going to be. And Ed Reed was out of there. And, you know, John Harbaugh is, you know, comes from an old school college coach. And, He's a sleep on the cot me off this guy. Yeah, totally.

And in a lot of ways, that's great. But I think maybe in this type of a situation where you have a young quarterback who rightfully, in my view, asked for a fully guaranteed deal after Deshaun Watson. He at least has to ask for it. Hey, if this guy who's in trouble, look at me. We've won 75, 80% of our games. You know, I think that was a totally. What an MVP award two years ago. Yeah.

But you really could use a buffer because. If you have an agent involved in this, then he can get into a shouting match with John Harbaugh, and no one knows. They can lose it and grab each other by the throat, and it doesn't matter because there'll be professionals the next day. I think this feels more and more personal. I'm sure you saw Lamar Jackson after the game put this on his social, I think it was on his Instagram. When you have something good, you don't play with it. You don't take chances losing it. you don't neglect it. When you have something good, you pour into it. You appreciate it because when

you take care of something good, that good thing takes care of you too. And now after the game, here's what John Harbaugh said. Tyler Huntley coming in and playing the way he played, coming off the shoulder and the wrist injuries and fighting his way back onto the field and just giving everything he had. I mean, in the absence of ever having stuck up for Lamar during this whole process, which John Harbaugh's had many chances to say, look, guys, don't question Lamar. Okay? This guy is, is, uh, tough and he's working hard to come back. No, instead he's cultivated and planted that seat of, I don't know, I thought he'd be back. Yeah, it beats me. Mike, the quarterback last week went on Twitter and gave an update about his injury situation on

Twitter. Because he, because the team controls all the information and narrative, just the way that it is. I mean, the beat writers every day. And he doesn't have an agent to leak that out to anybody. It's just a, it's such a strange set of circumstances. I can't remember anything like it. Because the Eric Burkart situation is such a great comparison point, right? Because all that stuff is happening with Kyler and with the organization, Eric Burkart can come out in Kyle, who is Eric, who's Kyler's agent, can come out in front of everything for Kyler and be like, listen, this is what we're doing here. This is how we're handling this. So you have the agent kind of taking that fire for the player.

Lamar doesn't have that. So now he's the one doing it. And it just makes it such a strange thing to watch play out publicly in real time because we don't often see stuff like this. And this feels, you know, a lot of times we analyze things that could happen in an off season, right? Hey, what are the five best places for this guy or whatever? And then he just never hits the market.

It doesn't this increasingly feel like, I mean, he may not be there. I'm starting to feel that more and more. And I was even waiting today after I wrote my column, I was thinking, okay, is Harbaugh going to kind of come out and clear the air today, right? Because during the season, Harbaugh kind of Harbaugh's, right? He Harbaugh's with the coy stuff. You're playing around. You don't want to give the enemy any information and sort of that.

Now that that's over, would you just say the things that I think you would say about your quarterback to just kind of clear the air? And, you know, we haven't heard that yet. So it feels like the organization maybe drew a line in the sand. If you go back to before the year when they got to the season, remember the negotiations Rover, like, they quickly said, yep, that's it. You know, they kind of put something out before the year. And you just wonder if there's an impasse that's going to be hard to resolve. And now that it is kind of personal, because I don't know about you.

What do you think about the way, like to me, it's conspicuous when Harbaugh, the first thing he says after the game is praising Huntley for playing with the injuries. I think the whole thing. That's really. That part of it and what you said about him not coming out and being like, listen, this guy's doing everything he can. And this stuff is trying to cut it off. I think not cutting it off.

I think that does say something. I do think the entire tenor of the way they've gone back and forth, there's just something a little bit off about it. You and Randy have been on this for a while. You've talked about on the Football GM podcast. And I totally agree. It just feels a little bit different. And like you said, I just never really entertain the idea of him being anywhere else next season.

I always assume that even if they couldn't agree on money, they'd figure it out. He'd get tagged or they would do something to figure this out over the long term. We've seen this. That got tagged. They gave him a deal. Even if there are kind of bumps in the road, if both sides are motivated to get it done, it often gets done. So I assume that's just what would happen. Now, if I'm Atlanta, I call.

I think you have to. I just didn't think it would be worth even picking up the phone because I just assumed that he would be there because they'd built everything through him in such a pronounced way. But now I would try to be, I would try to be sniffing around it if I were a team that needed a quarterback. I absolutely would be. Would you, if you were then, so I think this is a little bit of a dilemma because if I were them, I wouldn't necessarily want to do a five-year deal with the first four effectively guaranteed because of style of play and missing some games late in the year. I wonder at what point we will have seen the best of him.

That would be my concern. And I don't think he's there yet. but that is an interesting consideration for the Ravens of how long you want to go down this schematic and exact road. And at a certain point, it stops going higher and it starts going lower. I don't think they're there yet, but it hasn't advanced the way that I think anyone hoped it would. And there's a lot of fire on Greg Roman. Maybe some of that's deserved. But we'll see.

I would have to explore other schematic avenues and consider if that's the, the reason that I've reached somewhat of a dead end. And until I do that, I wouldn't be willing to say, ah, it's not worth committing to him because we've run into a wall. I think the wall that they've hit, it's not a Lamar Jackson wall. I think it's for a few different reasons on offense. And I would make sure that I was figuring out the other component parts before I wrote him off in that way.

But I also think, what are they going to do at quarterback? This team has really good players on it. You want to start over at quarterback at this stage of things right now. Maybe it becomes a little bit easier if you get a huge. draft hall, but walking away from Lamar Jackson, you wrote about this today. Like, unless you have another guy that you're ready to turn it to, that's a hard message to send to your locker room. So even if you're a little bit worried about giving him that deal, I still felt like ultimately

they would decide he was their best option because of where they are. I wonder, you know, in these situations, I just wonder like, like, I felt like after, after Sammy Watkins said what he said on Wednesday, which was really kind of out there, you know, he really put Lamar on a bad. out there guy. Yeah, but he really, that was kind of crossing lines, you know, of talking about guys' money and it's his, it's Lamar's business. But whenever, like we said, you know, we said wouldn't Jim Harba or John Harbaugh come out and say something on Lamar's behalf, I'm interested to see what the rest of the players say on that. Maybe they don't want to take sides. Maybe they're

a little wary of Harbaugh and they know where this thing is at. But that was another point raised in the piece today by an executive that I talked to, which was look, to do this, you not only have to have another option lined up, but you really need your locker room to kind of be okay with it. Like, did Lamar cross a line? You know, do the players or anyone think Lamar kind of crossed a line by not playing in this game? And we heard Mike Vic, which very much surprised me, saying, put a brace on it. I mean, that is a very respected player. Yeah, but that's an ex-player now in.

a studio role thing. I think we see that more often than it might seem where there's a little rough and said no. But RG3 said, no, that you don't do this because I did that and I was hurt. So you don't have to say anything. I think I'm listening to what Marlon Humphrey said. The guys in the locker room who have been around and Milwin Humphrey saying, you guys don't see him limping around at 50, 60% during the week like I do. The fact that there's that kind of guy with that sort of stature in their locker room willing to come out and say something like that, I think that says more to me then what a former player is going to say on TV. Yeah, I would just like to, I would like to hear five people. So maybe we will this off season because I think it is hard to move on from him

from a football standpoint, but it's really hard if the locker room's all in his corner and feels like he's getting a raw deal from the organization. And if if that's the case, then then really you could have problems moving on, you know, especially if he goes somewhere and and does well. and it could be, that could be the end of, that could be the beginning of the end for Harbaugh in Baltimore, because it's hard to find another guy. I, uh, I want to clip exactly what you just said and replay it when we're going to have this conversation about Justin Fields over the next three or four months because that is the, well, look, and the surplus value, you'd get on a rookie deal and, you know, all that other stuff. You'd reset your clock. Justin Fields. Who do they want people to take?

Well, I mean, Bryce Young. There's a lot of conversations about what they would do with the number one pick. But I think that we were ignoring that Justin Fields killed himself for the Bears organization this year. Got the shit kicked out of him for 17 games. And everyone in that locker room when they were cleaning out their lockers last week was like, yeah, I would walk through broken glass for that guy. Hey, now let's just substitute Bryce Young's body on all those hits. He never plays again. Okay.

And this is the point that doing the Football GM podcast, you know, that Randy just drives home with me all the time. They're not looking for 5-11, 185-pounders. You can't do that with the first pick of the draft. That's disappointing. As a 5-11-185-pound man, I feel a little bit tossed aside. I mean, sure, that's about what Randy is. He was a NIA championship, national championship quarterback. He wasn't getting drafted in the NFL, you know, and it's just, look, it doesn't mean he's not going to have a good career and you don't take him.

You don't do that. You wouldn't do that, in my view, at the expense of Justin Field. So we'll see. Last thing I want to talk about here, there's some other coordinator news that I'm sure we'll discuss at some point when those jobs are filled, Washington and the Jets. But the one that really jumped out to me that I really wanted to ask your opinion on, the Panthers are interviewing defensive coordinators right now. Okay? Yeah. They interviewed Vigfangio.

They've reached out to Mark Juan Manuel, who's the safeties coach for the Jets and was the Falcons' defense coordinator for a couple years. And they want to talk to Chris Richard as well. Can you remember anything like this? Where there's a team that's actively looking to fill a defense coordinator role before they fill their head coach role or they're seeking it simultaneously? So here's what I think on that. They want Sean Payton. What's the number one most important thing for Sean Payton? De-coordinator.

Got to have a good one. So maybe they're going to talk to Vic Fangio, whoever, because Sean said, we're going to get Vic Fangio, All-Star thing. So I would think for sure that you would be doing that to make sure you're squared away on a potential good defensive coordinator if you are able to get Sean Payton. And we'll see how that works. It would be in the division. I mean, maybe there's some dynamics there.

But that would be the only reason that would make sense because otherwise you'd be doing it backwards and you might hire a head coach who doesn't want that coordinator, or doesn't fit well with them or whatever. And that's interesting. The dynamic of it, you're hiring a guy where you're trying to make the destination more attractive to you for the head coach rather than the head coach trying to make himself attractive to you, or it's traveling the other way. And that's kind of what's happening with Sean Payton.

That makes sense. We'll see how that play out. I would also kind of suspect that Sean Payton probably by now has some kind of understanding with Mickey Loomis on what the price is going to be. He said it today. Okay, great. He said today he was on Coward. Watching this happen where there's this guy who's being courted by all of these NFL teams

who's a current member of the media and he's just discussing it openly is wild to see in real time. But he told Colin Coward today that the Saints are probably looking for a mid to late first round pick for his services, which is just, it's in fairly, very, very interesting. Yeah. So then this should be able to move at a certain point. point and I think that's what Carolina is likely doing. They're sort of kind of setting the table, hey, if we get Sean Payton, can we have the house sort of ready, right? The house in order and have it be attractive to him. And maybe they've had conversations with Sean Payton about what type of scheme, who would be okay at the coordinator, who wouldn't, who can we get, who can you deliver. And it's been

interesting this cycle. It's not like a bunch of these jobs have been filled. There's still a lot of, you know, They're open. So, which is great, in my opinion, because now you can actually, you have time to actually talk to people and maybe make choices for the right reasons. And maybe Carolina can do that. And if they get Sean Payton in that division, I think that's pretty awesome for them. Last thing, talking about head coaches and former head coaches and courting them, sounds like Jim Harbaugh headed back to Michigan based on an announcement from the president of the university. The messaging on all of this Jim Harbaugh stuff from the University of Michigan has been hilarious, but it feels like that might be the end of this round of Jim Harbaugh flirting with the NFL.

So the interesting thing to me about this is that I think it means he didn't get an offer. And that would be two years in a row. And so I think we have assumed the last couple of years, hey, Jim Harbaugh is coming back and someone's just going to sign up for it. And last year he went and interviewed with the Vikings and they said, no thank you. He thought the job was his. and in my opinion and from what I heard from coming out of that building.

And then this year, hey, well, look, if he had any chance to get the Bronco job, Carolina said they weren't even in on him. Indy isn't making any move like that that we've seen. Where could he go?

I think he walked up and realized there's nothing there for him. And so this will be interesting. Like next year, does he even try this because he needs to figure out or get an agent or somebody to figure out who would actually hire him. It's just been a commercial for agents. Yeah, and I had exactly. I had written a couple weeks ago about Harba coming back.

You know, one of the things, if I could go back and, you know, edit it and add a paragraph, I would add this paragraph. Jim Harbaugh is not the type of person who's going to impress you in a Zoom. Because he's just a little different. I mean, if you know him, hey, that's Harbaugh, you know. but he's a little different and it's not always comfortable. And so when you're trying to connect with an owner, I don't think Jim Harbaugh is the easiest connector.

Anyone who's been around him knows that. It doesn't mean he's bad or it's not good or bad. It's just the way that it is. So maybe those zooms or whatever aren't sealing a deal. Maybe they're creating, you know, okay, hmm, not so sure I felt the connection, did you? And everyone looks at each other. it's funny because that's not the reason to hire a head coach.

And that's how a lot of head coach mistakes are made is by thinking, oh man, I really had a connection with that guy. I should hire him. So even if it's human nature to think that way sometimes, I think that it leads to a lot of missteps, especially in this process. Yeah. So I also think no one in a front office is going to be pushing hard to bring in Jim Harbaugh, right? And at a certain point, you do need an advocate at some level of the organization to make one of these things happen. And if he doesn't have one, then what are you going to do? Yeah.

So it's interesting. All right. It's time to get to our conversation with Jordan about where things stand with Sean McVeigh. Let's do it. All right. Thrilled now to welcome our Rams writer at the Athletic. Always great to chat with her. Jordan Roderick, Jordan, how you doing?

I'm good. Is that a real concept anymore? Like good? Is that, can we, I think I'm okay. You sound like the head coach of the football team that you cover, which I assume isn't an accident at this point. It has been a whirlwind over in Ramsland this offseason as it was last off season. I think there's been a lot of yoyoing back and forth.

Who's going to stick around? Who's not going to stick around? What does the coaching staff look like? There are a ton of moving parts. Let's start at a very simple place. In your mind, the news that happened this weekend that Sean McVeigh was returning to the Rams, what do you think is the driving force behind his decision to stay in Los Angeles for at least one more season? I think he had enough time to think about it instead of making an impulsive decision.

I think that was very subtly smart by the Rams to basically make it overtly clear that they weren't putting a deadline on his decision. Those who know Sean know that the more he's away from football, the more he wants to be in football. So they were supportive and all of that, I think, on a human level. But then it was also like a very subtly smart move by them to say, yeah, well, you know, basically what they did is they ate all of the angst and rightful, rightful angst from any assistance or players or whoever who was,

who were concerned because they're kind of in limbo for the second time, second consecutive season really is something that will probably continue to be a conversation for the next several years as long as Shaw McVeigh is coaching. So they basically said, yeah, we'll eat that angst if it means that in the long term, we think that this is the right bet to place in terms of giving Sean the time that he needed instead of saying, okay, that's your call, all right, then you're out or you're in or whatever, because I think everyone who knows him knows it, the longer he is away, the more he wants to be back.

If you could just walk through your reporting on what he was weighing, because there's been so much stuff that's been flying around out there over the last couple weeks. And the piece you wrote this week, I thought it did a good job of distilling what some of those considerations were. So if you could just lay those out for people, I think it would be helpful. Yeah, there was a lot of things going on in terms of things that factored into making his decision and factored into why he, and I don't say this to poke fun at him at all, but why he was sort of going through a little bit of this existential questioning of himself and his career and his future, because there was a lot of push and a lot of sort of operational questioning of himself and his career. in his future because there was a lot of push and a lot of sort of operating at this frenetic pace, but there's also a lot of, oh, the structure is quite literally built around you to be successful. And it didn't really factor in what happens when things happen to you that you can't

control. So, you know, as we've known this since 2017, you know, every aspect of the way the Ram's ecosystem functions is to put Sean McVeigh in the best possible position so that he can function at his best. And best for a long time meant most productive. And he started sort of feeling the weight of you're leaving the human parts of that behind. You're not functioning at your best as a human. You're not functioning at your best as a leader. You're not functioning at your best as a coach, a teacher, a person, you know, off the field, dealt with some stuff this past year. And so there was a real reallocation of what those resources need to look like, whether it's the way that he hires his coaching staff, the way that he better delegates for help in terms of, you know,

people in his ear giving him advice and the way that he delegates tasks, the way he works. Because for the longest time, like I said, this thing was basically built, this wheel, essentially, with Sean McVeigh right at the center of it. And it was built all around him as the engine and the oil and the, you know, everything. And all of a sudden it starts rolling down this hill and they're caught up in their own success so fast that these, you know, pieces of this thing are flying off left and right. But the only way Sean McVeigh is now starting to see that he can stop is if he crashes. And that's not an option for this organization. So you kind of have to recalibrate and see

what's best now for him to function, not just as a coach, but as a person in general. And I think that's a conversation. He's not quite sure of the answer yet. And so the Rams are basically saying, hey, we want to give you, again, everything you need. But I think now re-quantifying what is the best kind of help for him, maybe not people just saying yes to him all the time. And then he's sort of dealing with that reckoning as well. Do you think, Jordan, that this is it? Or do you think this is going to be sort of a, you know,

it's not by accident the week before the end of the season that there's a report that he's going to be thinking about it? No one just made that up. I mean, it's coming out. do you think that this is going to be kind of the way it is, that he's kind of whatever, reflective, tortured at times, and that. Beautiful torment, as he called it.

Exactly. Next year when it happens, he'll be like, oh, this is Sean going through his phase again? He'll be fine. Don't worry about it. Be nice to him, you know, give him his space. Or do you think that this is more definitive and, you know, maybe more time's going to go by before?

I think you can look at the, it's a great question. I think you can look at the way his contract is structured to where the extension he signed this off scene is where if he has, if he weighs this option every year, the option will always be that he comes back if he takes a break. That's the Rams operated under the assumption. If he took a break this year, he would be back coaching for them after a certain amount of time a year maybe or probably even less than that. Because like I said, I don't, I don't know that he, whether he could have dealt with being

away for that long. I mean, that's a long time. I mean, it's two weeks in the offices. I don't really know what to do with myself. Imagine a head coach of a football team, you know, and it's already a short season. It's a long time that feels longer when you don't have a task that you're passionate about a hand. And so I think they always thought that this could be a possibility.

And you look at the way that some of these core contracts of these players are structured. You kind of have an idea of what the Rams believe their quote unquote window is. And there's some people in the building that don't really like that word. But like you really can see logically what the parameters of their success and contention level will be. And I think that aligns with Sean. too. I think that aligns with where their read on him is. I think that this year, I don't necessarily agree with the whole concept of like a rebuild for them. I think being on the ground and seeing a lot of

the pieces and their functionality and then the way that they move and kind of peer behind doors and corners. Like I think that they will be have if, you know, with Sean coming back, there are some things potentially in the works that could mean that they can sustain this contention window a little bit longer. But I think after, but like I think after that, I mean, I would not be surprised at all if in 2024, that's when he takes the break. And part of that is because we know it's coming. We know it's coming. And it's, and the Rams have kind of been at peace with the fact that it is. And so they've sort of put themselves with that contract that they gave him, they've put themselves in the position where you have, you have space on the other side of whenever he takes the break

to then come back or you have space on the other side to then reacquire some capital if he decides that maybe this is it for him or he, you know, he wants to explore other options. And I think that that's the interesting part of this too is I'm really empathetic to being a part, you know, imagine you're a part of this organization and you are having this sort of cold water splashed in your face of how this organization is actually built and who it's actually built around in totality. And that person, you're not sure if this could be it. And you're not sure of their sort of level of commitment to you. And so while I'm empathetic for what Sean's going through, I'm also empathetic for the players who don't have the same types of future guarantees

that a head coach in the NFL does. And I'm empathetic to what the assistance, you know, in terms of all of this fluidity that's happening now, I'm empathetic to what they might be feeling in terms of how long do you really want to commit to a program if you're not sure if it's future. See, I think it's exciting with these back because if he goes away, then the narrative is true. that you know what? They went all in and now it crashed. Then the narrative's true. I think it's really cool to see him

and knowing how competitive he is and just, you know, as that organization has always been taking big swings, that now he comes back and now he has to disprove the narrative because the narrative, we know all the stuff that happened that made the season go the way that it went,

but it still is what it is. I mean, they still went to the Super Bowl and then it did crash. And so now he gets to come back and say, nope, you know, And there were glimpses of it down the stress during the season. I sensed that he kind of got excited when he got Baker Mayfield, you know, or just something that was different.

Like the team played hard. The Sean McVeigh, Curiosity Project. Yeah, like they played hard. You know, they should have beat Seattle in the last game even. So. Well, I think it's a good point, Mike, because, like, I think that the fact that the players never quit. I mean, the players had something to prove. This was not something that was unknown within the locker room that he would be

mulling this, that he's constantly been mulling this for the last couple of years. And, um, you know, this is not something that goes unnoticed by players. You can never fool a locker room, um, in terms of somebody's mental well-being, somebody's state of, you know, commitment or concern about their role and their job. And these players, I think sort of quietly kept stepping up in ways that showed him quite a bit without maybe being verbal because of the way that they consistently showed up down the stretch in, in every phase, whether or not they had the, the talent, the non-injured talent to actually, you know, put forth a good game. You know, that wasn't the case always, but the effort was always there. So the big question, obviously,

now is what the support looks like. You talked about the assistants that have been left angling a little bit. They were allowed to seek out other opportunities. Those were the reports last week before he decided to come back. And that entire picture kind of speaks to me of, we're evaluating every part of this. We're going to figure out what the right group is, what their roles have to be to make sure he has the right support, and that's why we're kind of opening the doors to everything here. So what does that look like in your mind? What do they need to seek out? How do they need to build this up? Because there's been so much attrition there. I feel like they've constantly been having to figure this out on the fly. So what does the 20-23 version of that look like? And how does it feel different

than maybe not enough support over the last year or so? Yeah, that too, by the way, the letting assistant coaches know they could pursue other opportunities was also like subtly a smart move on the part of Sean and on the organization because I think he understood the angst that was emanating from from that group in terms of not knowing what their future would look like and not being sure if it was okay to talk to other teams and all this stuff. But it also, you know, they were going to make massive changes their coaching staff either way, regardless of whether or not he underwent this sort of self-reckoning. So it also kind of was a way to see and more truly evaluate, you know, who is out the door.

And if people depart, he doesn't have to fire them. This, you know, as often happens in the NFL, it's a little bit of a two-way street here. That's what it felt like is that they were like, we're going to have to nuke this thing anyway. So we're the idea that other people are going to seek out opportunities, we have to start over no matter what. So that's kind of what it felt like. So hearing that is. Well, your instinct is correct. Only part of that was share was publicized.

This is like the loyalty test. Oh, you guys are leaving, huh? I see who really wanted to be here. But it's also maybe a chance to just reset the staff a little bit, right? And just for him to reframe this thing and get it exactly how he wants it, have the roles to find. and kind of get a little bit of a restart without having to change where you're going or any of that. And what is that? Yeah.

And I think that what you mentioned about attrition, it's affected them in so many ways outside of even just, you know, it's really hard to continue to turn over coaches year over year over year. It's also affected the way that they communicate fundamentals of their system. It's affected the way that they have tried and I think failed in some ways to fill leadership gaps from when, some significant players leave. It is, it has affected the way that they draft because of how valuable that input from the position coach is year over year. You saw them release a bunch of their third and fourth round picks this year. All of those players were selected by previous assistant coaches or coordinators that were only there for a year. And then had no sort of placed in the

ongoing vision of what the team was trying to do at that time versus what they were trying to do now. So a lot of that has been really complicated for the Rams. And I think it's catching up to Sean. I joke around with people in the building all the time. Like you're running out of guys, man. Like you're just, you're running out of these specific funnel systems. And then there's now a flooded market for the two coaching systems that he's pulling from most frequently because in part, it's a hell of his own creation essentially because he's partially to blame for why these have exploded in the first place. But I think that what this looks like is you're looking for.

for those fundamental qualities that first attracted him to some of the base key members of that staff in in 2017. I think you're looking for if you're him, you're looking for people who you can delegate to, which is why I think that Thomas Brown will have an expanded role. If they can keep him, I mean, he's got some head coaching interviews. I think Thomas Brown will have an expanded role on this staff. He was the tight ends coach. And then what do you? And assistant head coach.

And his role will probably be expanded to not just be entitled. because he will be actually doing assistant head coach things in my mind, moving forward, if Sean is sort of serious about this delegation effort that he wants to implement. And I think he'll be more hands on with the, and I think he'll be more hands on with the running backs as well. And I think he'll be on the ground doing a lot more work with the game planning and a lot more work with the strategy, where in most buildings, it's sort of sequestered the OC and the quarterback's coach and the head coach.

It's kind of just them. And then the rest of the offensive staff is sort of in support. And so I think you want a little bit more of a collaborative effort. But I think you also want people in the OC chair who are mandating that collaborative effort, who are trying to make sure that there's functional conflict. Sean's been at his best when he's either had a really veteran coach who he's learning from and who he doesn't have to worry about at all. or he's been at his best when he's in functional and productive conflict with somebody,

meaning the ideas are clashing and the ideas are competing with each other. So I think that that's kind of what he's going to be seeking out on both sides of the ball. And really in all three phases, I'm expecting changes for this staff moving forward. So his offensive coordinators, I believe since he got there, Matt Lefleur was the first one. And then Matt goes to Tennessee, right? And then Kevin O'Connell, there was somebody in between them, right? Nope. Interesting.

But that was the thing. And just to reiterate, like that was the thing where Sean always goes into these sort of ebbs and flows, right? So he corrects. He'll fall into something and then he'll correct. It's just his personality. So he really enjoyed a lot of success with Matt LaFleord, not just because it was, I think, the right IQ, EQ balance between the two of them. And you saw this with Kevin O'Connell as well, the right IQ EQ balance between the two of them. of them because, you know, I think Sean requires a very specific personality type to be his

OC. And so you could see those two were like hyper functional in that regard. And then, but in between, he fell into a dip where there wasn't necessarily an OC and he was doing a lot of that himself. Again, not delegating. And so then he goes out and he finds Kevin O'Connell who compliments him extremely well. And I don't say this in a mean way, but was sort of like put in the middle child role between Sean and then a bunch of other things that were happening in that building, not just the, like I said, functional and competitive conflict between Sean's system and Brandon's Daly's system back in 2020. Like, you need a middle person in between that, right?

And then also Sean and the Jared Goff situation, Kevin O'Connell was such a huge part of kind of keeping the building together, essentially, when that was falling apart and kind of keeping the ship moving. And when he's been in those spaces where he's had that type of. combination on his staff, people who challenge him, but also balanced out by the right EQ personalities who are also moving the conversation forward and know how to reach people, that's when he's been extremely functional. And that's, frankly, that's when big things have happened in that building that have also

had ripple effects across the NFL as well. I forgot that Shane Waldron was kind of the right-hand man passing game coordinator for those couple years between offensive coordinators. Just another name that you forget. Jed Fish was there. Jed Fish was there, too. Redfish and Shane and yeah. I mean, you look at the 2020 Rams coaching staff.

Joe Barry was the assistant head coach. He's now in Green Bay. Kevin O'Connell was the offensive coordinator. He's now in Minnesota as the head coach. Shane Waldron was the passing game coordinator. He's now the offensive coordinator in Seattle. Liam Cohen was there. He's still there.

Thomas Brown. Eric Yarber, who is criminally underrated wide receivers coach. He's still there, which I thought. But even beyond that, like West Phillips was the tight ends coach. He's now the office coordinator in Minnesota. Aaron Kormar was the offensive line coach. He's not there anymore. It's just the amount of sheer turnover when you look at a staff snapshot from any given year.

It's like looking at the team photos like being back to the future, like the people are just disappearing slowly as you're looking at the picture. And so that's what they've been dealing with. And it's going to be an ongoing thing. And I'm sure we'll have a lot of time, Jordan, to talk about the personnel and the roster and what it's going to look like over the next couple of years. But for now, we'll let you get a little bit of a little bit of rest and a little bit of, I don't know, just calm here, hopefully after this decision has. been made. I do want to bring up one more point if you'll allow me. Of course. You guys this time is valuable. Thank you for having me on. But so I think about this all the time and I'm working on a piece on this actually where it's like, okay, so it's their ecosystem is so in part dependent on

them hitting on those middle to, you know, late middle round draft picks and how that entire, for lack of a better word, like algorithm works in identifying talent and then developing talent. like it is such a huge part of what makes this thing and all of its fragility go. And I had, you know, I think back to like one specific example when you have so much attrition and what the ripple effect could be down the road is. So Brandon Staley is the DC in 2020 and that spring. He is all in on drafting Trial Burgess, safety out of Utah, who is super coverage, versatile, can do a lot of different things, plays inside and outside.

well, Brandon's Daly envisioned him in the star role, kind of like what you're seeing Durwin James doing in Las Angeles with the Chargers right now. And that the next year, so Terrell gets hurt that year and misses the last, the second part of his season. And then Brandon moves to a head coaching job elsewhere. And then Terl comes back. And Rahe Morris is the defensive coordinator. And their idea for how to move the system forward differs from what Brandon's Daly's idea

is to move the system forward. and that is putting Jalen Ramsey at the star. Jalen Ramsey does not miss snaps and he does not get hurt. So then all the sudden now, simply because of circumstantial changeover and attrition in that way, a full pick who's supposed to contribute significant snaps for you now is cut in the 2022 season just flat out released because he had no spot in the roster.

So it's kind of like, that's happened to them a few times. Like there's a few players and it doesn't make anyone a villain or a hero or whatever, but it is a part of this. It's a part of why you're seeing the cracks form because, like I said, they're sort of, they're victims of their own success in so many ways. And part of that success is being a coaching factory for the last few years, but it's slowly like squeezing them dry in other ways. And it lowers your hit rate on those middle round people that get lost in the shuffle as roles change. Just like in a coaching, it's like a coaching staff changes. And then, oh, that fourth round pick the previous staff loved, you guys don't like them or whatever, right?

Exactly. And it's, but year over year over year. for the last six, which is not sustainable. Yeah. It's, I mean, we've talked about this a lot, Jordan. It's like a football petri dish. It's always a fascinating place. That's why we always love chatting with you.

So appreciate the time, and we will catch up very, very soon. Thanks, guys. Nice seeing you. All right. Let's stay with the Los Angeles athletic contingent here. We were going to talk about the Chargers. So I thought, why not have a man on who covers this team every single day, wrote a lot of interesting stuff about them over the weekend.

Dan Popper, very good to see you, my friend. Good to see you guys as well. Thanks for having me. All right, let's dig into this. There's been a lot of chatter over the last couple days since that game on Saturday night. Now that we've all gotten some time to sleep on it and we can see this with cooler heads a little bit, why don't you lay out for us what you think is going to happen with the Los Angeles Chargers coaching staff this offseason? Yeah, so I think Brandon Staley is going to keep his job.

But because of how the season went and how the season ended, they're going to have to make changes here. You can't blow a 27-point lead in the playoffs in a game of that magnitude and just bring everybody back and just roll with it. So I think they're going to make a change in offensive coordinator. The biggest issue in that game for me was they got up 27 to nothing and they could not run the football. You have to be able to mill clock and possess the ball in the second half of that game. just couldn't do it. And it's been an issue for this team all year. And there's a lot of frustration in terms of how they ran the ball this year among everyone involved with the organization. And part of it is that you have Justin Herbert and in Joe Lombardi's eyes, you want to put the

ball in his hands as much as possible. But if you talk to running backs and you talk to offensive linemen, what they say is we need to get into a rhythm. And a lot of times he just full on abandoned it. And, you know, that absolutely led to some of the issues that they had running the ball. And this is on top of a lot of other issues with the offense that, you know, Robert, you and have talked about extensively about, you know, how the scheme doesn't really give you a ton of margin for error. They're not pushing the ball downfield. Some of that is roster makeup. Some of that is how they built this thing and not having speed. But some of it, too, is the scheme and, you know, limiting Justin Herbert in terms of creating those explosive plays.

And so, yeah, one thing I was going to say about that in the second half. So, because I was talking to a coach today, and we were talking about that game, and he was like, you know, they ran the ball only X amount of times in the second half, but then the coach goes, of course, if they had run up more and lost, then people would say, you got too conservative, right? You got to, I mean, either way, you just have to win the game. But I looked at this in the second half of that game, they had 10 second down plays, and they passed on nine of them, okay?

Nine to one pass. But here's the problem. second in 14, second in 10, second in 10, second in 11, second in 15, second in 6, 9, 15, 6, 17. So it's kind of like, yeah, you can run on those. Maybe you're going to take some to the clock down, but then you're in third and nine, you're passing everybody knows it and you're going to get your quarterback hit and all that type of stuff. So they've got to find a way to get in, to be able to close out a game like that. And you're so right, if the run game was even mediocre, I think they win that game.

I just think they have to consider every aspect of it because I don't think Justin is blameless here with the way that the passing game is structured. As you watch him a bunch and they were even talking about it on the broadcast, you can see his eyes moving so incredibly quickly through all of his progressions and getting to those checkdowns so fast all the time. I'm taking that out of his hands. I'm not structuring the offense as such that he's given those chances to check the ball down as often as he is. I want to do everything I can to encourage him to push the ball down the

field. I feel like some sort of offensive plan that really taps into that, whether it's the structure of what you're doing X's and O's wise, the personnel that you're putting on the field and just getting more speed out there. This is a failure on like three or four different levels, what they look like offensively. And I think that making sure you're incentivizing the quarterback who has the skill set that that guy has to push the ball down the field whenever possible, whether it's through the design of plays or the players you're putting on the field. I think that has to be a priority. You can do that with talent. You could do that with the coaches. But I do think that that has to be an intentional choice that they make this offseason. 100%. You bring up a great point.

I've been talking about it all year. Like, he's a robot back there. That is how he functions. And it's one of his greatest strengths because he's a fantastic processor in the way he sees the field. But it also leads him to miss opportunities to push it down the field. And the other part of this too, is that he is a risk-averse quarterback. Like, more than anything in the world, he hates throwing interceptions. It's all he talks about if you bring up games. He'll be like, oh, yeah. Like, I asked him, what was the biggest challenge of this year?

And he said throwing an interception in back-to-back games against the 49ers and the chiefs in two-minute drill situations. He led a go-ahead touchdown drive in that Chiefs game. And Mahomes just was Michael Myers, as he and Nate always talk about Robert, you know, rising from the dead again and winning the game. In the 49ers game, he got the ball with like 50 seconds left. and he's supposed to drive the whole field, but this is what he focuses on all the time.

He hates turning the ball over. He hates throwing interceptions, and he is a risk-averse player. And so everyone's saying, well, look at Josh Allen. Josh Allen is not a risk-averse player by any means, right? Neither is Patrick Mahomes. Like, these guys are willing to put the ball into areas

where there is a little bit of risk. He is the polar opposite of Philip Rivers in that regard. Like Philip Rivers was Brett Farr. That's who he wanted to be. He was going to throw the ball down the field. And if he threw five interceptions, thing nab it, oh well, right? But that is not Justin, and that's part of this whole conversation as well.

There was a play in the game where I remember exactly when it happened or what the situation was, where you could see a corner out slowly coming open and he gets to his checkdown and he checks it down. And as I'm trying to wish the best version of Justin Herbert into the world, my thoughts are twofold. It's like, one, is that just part of his makeup? Is that always going to be part of his makeup? The fact that he's going to come off that a little quicker than some other guys are because he wants to make the right play. He doesn't want to get sacked. He doesn't want to make, like you said, a throw into a bad situation. I don't know the answer to that. But the other one is, is he going

to be incentivized to hang in the pocket a little bit more than he is? Because other than the speed, I think they need on offense, the interior of the offensive line didn't play great this year. Zion Johnson had a very mixed rookie season. Corey Lindley missed a bunch of time. Matt Filer did not play nearly as well as he did last year. And then obviously they were dealing with the rotating cast that they had at the tackle spots all season. So one of their plans coming into this year is we're going to push the ball down the field a little bit more because our pass protection is going to be better. Can that actually manifest as reality next year, I think is going to be part of this along

with more speed and a different offensive play caller? Yeah, it's fascinating because they drafted Zion Johnson. The whole idea was we're going to have this force on the inside of our offensive line that is going to allow Justin to stay in the pocket, but also we're going to be able to run the football better in the interior. that neither of those things happened. A lot of it was Corey Lindsley being in and out. I mean, he had a concussion.

He had severe food poisoning. He had a knee issue. He's so central to what they do. I think Zion was up and down. And then Matt Filer regressed at a shocking rate. Like this is a guy that they really trusted to be a functional, solid left guard that they could trust. And he was a mess in past protection this year. And I don't know what happened.

I don't know if he got hurt early in the year. But what I saw on tape was a player that was nowhere close to the guy. that he was last year. And so that like all of those things didn't materialize. And I think Zion's going to be a good player. He's had great reps against like elite players in this league, whether it's DeForest Buckner or Chris Jones, you need to go down the list. But he had normal rookie growing pains and he really struggled to pick up twists and stunts. And that's what that was the big issue. And when you had Will Clap in there at center for Corey Lindley and they were running. That's a continuity problem. And they were running twist and stunts at Zion. And he was just

struggling. And that's the area that he really has to improve. I also think that underrated part of this offense coming into this season. They hired an offensive line. coach with a ton of experience, but they also changed offensive line coaches coming into this year, which I don't think has really been talked about very much. Yeah, losing Frank Smith was a big deal because Frank Smith wasn't just their offensive line coach. He was their run game coordinator as well. He leaves to go to Miami to join Mike McDaniels staff, and they miss that. They didn't have that run game coordinator in the building to really, you know, scheme up

and focus in on that part of the offense. And I talked to players yesterday who said, you know, that was a big part of it, is just the focus that they were putting on it, the intention, the amount of time they were spending, talking about the running game, practicing the running game, making sure that everything was perfect. And that stuff matters because it's all about timing. It's all about timing and rhythm in the run game. And they just never found that at any point this year.

Some of it was injuries, but some of it, I think, was how they approached it from a coaching perspective without Frank Smith there. Your guess about the offensive coordinator candidates and why they would be looking in those spots. We're talking about this like it's already happened, but assuming that they fire their offensive coordinator, so I don't want to be flipping about, but anyway.

I think it's a strong possibility. And we'll see what happens here. But when Brandon took this job in 2021, there was a clear vision for what type of scheme he wanted, right? Like he wanted to run Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan, LaFleur, like that style of offense. Because obviously it fits very well with what Justin does well. Getting him on the move is really, really good. He tried to hire guys that ran that scheme and failed at every turn and ended up with Joe

Lombardi. So now that he has another chance to hire a new offensive coordinator and bring in a different scheme, I think that's the direction that he's going to go. So is that Nate Hackett? Is that Mike LaFleur? Is that Dan Pitcher, the quarterback's coach in Cincinnati? Is that somebody from the Rams staff of Thomas Brown? So those are the guys that I think he'll be looking to because that's the type of scheme he's always wanted to run. And now he has an opportunity to get that right, assuming that he keeps his job. So the last thing I really want to hit on, I think there going to be a lot of people who are saying they're just bringing him back after what happened on

Saturday. And Nate and I made our feelings about that known. I think that that is a in the moment kind of heated reaction to a historic collapse. But you were someone who is there every day, sees how players respond to him, has a feel for what the building is like. If you're building a case for why he should stay or why the organization is committed to him staying, what does that case look like as somebody who watches it every day? Yeah. I think it starts with, the fact that he's a very good defensive schemer, and I think he's proven that this year. I mean, you can go to the Dolphins game when they were down six defensive starters and played the way that they played. But the other part of it and the deeper part of it is that he has

always focused on relationships. Those are the two things he always talks about, relationships and competition. That's the lifeblood of his program. That's what he always says. And you go and talk to players after that game on Saturday night, yesterday during Baggy Day. He has done an excellent job of building those relationships. And that's a very difficult thing to do as a head coach, to build relationships, to cultivate a sustainable culture, to gain the full trust of your players. Because that's really important.

That's really, really important. And I think he's done that all at. And probably the bridge that would be the most concerning with him, considering his background. He'd only been an NFL system for three or four years. He's kind of a more cerebral guy. He's the analytics nerd, darling. If there was going to be an area where he struggled a little bit,

I think that would be the one that people would guess. Yeah, but the reason he's able to, to do it is because he is a genius. Like, guys want to go talk to him because he knows so much about football and is so smart at explaining X's and O's. And he listens to players. Like, there was a player yesterday who was telling me that guys feel comfortable going into his office and saying, listen, coach, this is not working for me.

Whatever part of it it is, this specific coverage, this specific blitz, this is not working for me. And then he will work with that player to find common ground, all right, and create something that works for that player moving forward. whatever the situation is, that matters. Like that trust matters. And when you make a change, all right, we love to talk about coaching changes. But when you make a change, that all starts over.

And there is a human element to this, right? Where, you know, you have to build those relationships again. And the only way to do that is time on tasks together. And so you bring somebody new in, the only way you're going to get the relationships back to a similar place that they are right now with that new coach is time. It takes time. And that's what Joey Bosa said. I think he hit it right on the head.

And I think that's a big reason why. Brandon Staley should end up keeping his job is the way he's built these relationships with the players and the trust that he has and cultivating that culture. I want to read the quote from Bosa that he gave to you on Saturday night. He said, I really do trust these coaches and it takes time. It takes time. It's two years. It takes time to build something. He's a fresh head coach in this league and to expect that he's going to know everything right away is kind of silly. I think we got to the playoffs and we had a very good chance of getting the playoffs last year. I just think we need to keep building. It just doesn't happen overnight. And I think that's a very self-aware quote from Joey Bosa.

And I think the last part about the player thing is watching him work in real time, he has done a really intentional job of trying to cultivate those relationships and those connections. And I think that you can see that when you watch him coach for any length of time. And I think that's important. The last thing I wanted to point out here, I think it's worth acknowledging what the recent history of some really successful franchises have looked like from the coordinator movement side of this. Okay. The Rams, the year before they went to the Super Bowl, fired Wade Phillips to hire Brandon Staley. That scheme with Rahe Morris took over, ultimately won, they won a Super Bowl with that change, okay?

The Chiefs fired Bob Sutton, their defensive coordinator, the year before they hired Steve Spagnolo, the year they did that, they went on to win a Super Bowl. The Patriots have had constant turnover for one reason or another. People don't even remember this. Rick Denison was the offensive coordinator for Sean McDermott's bills in their first year together. He was gone after one year, and they hired Brian Dable, and the rest is history. The Cowboys fired Mike Nolan after one year of Mike Nolan being their defensive coordinator and then went to hire Dan Quinn and been one of the best defenses in the league over the last two seasons. Having to do this is not some marker of organizational dysfunction. It happens all the time, and there are a lot of tangible examples of it really benefiting

some of the best teams in the league, period. Another, I think, relevant one, the Niners were a bad defense for a couple of years. They hired Joe Woods the year before their defense exploded in 2019. They started incorporating some new ideas in that first year together, and things changed for them. These sorts of growing pains and these sorts of, man, how do we need to change this? How do we need to make these tweaks to get where we want to go? This is normal in the NFL. And I just think it's worth pointing that out when we think about this situation.

Timing matters, though, and you have to make the decision at the right time. And you can't let a person be in a position for longer than is necessary. And right now, like, it feels necessary for them to make a move here. But if you let it drag on a little bit longer, it could be a death sentence. So timing matters with that, I think. All right, Daniel, really, really appreciate the time. The last thing I wanted to mention with you and Jordan being on the show today, everyone if you have not read the piece that Jordan and Daniel wrote about the conversation going on

and kind of the push from the league and the PA, about the surfaces that teams and players are using in the NFL. It was a great piece. I highly recommend that you guys go check it out because you guys did fantastic work on it. All right. That's all we have for today. Thank you so much to Jordan. Thank you to Daniel again for their time.

Appreciate you guys hanging out with us as well. If you haven't noticed, there is an endless amount of content on the athletic football show feed over the last week. If you've missed any of it, we did multiple all pro shows. We have a Saturday wildcard recap that is available, a Sunday wildcard recap that is available. We are going to have a Monday night wild card recap with me and Bob Stern from the athletic talking about Bucks Cowboys. That will be available overnight into Tuesday. So please be on the lookout for that. Nate and I are going to be doing an award show on Wednesday.

Just it's playoff time. It's playoff time for everybody. It's playoff time for you guys. You bring it. You should go listen to all of the. and just step up your game because everyone else is right now. So please go check all of that stuff out. Sincerely, though, really appreciate you guys listening.

If you have not, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can check us out live after the division around games on Saturday and Sunday. This week, Nate and I are doing live recap shows after all of the playoff games. So please check that out. Please subscribe to The Athletic, where you can read Mike Sandos Pick Six column, where you can read Jordan Rodriguez, work on the Rams and Sean McVay, the piece that Daniel and Jordan wrote about playing surfaces in the NFL that I mentioned a little bit later.

Earlier, that's the only place you can read that, theatholic.com slash football show. For now, we'll see you guys tomorrow with Bob. Appreciate you listening. Talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.