The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Carson Palmer on Bruce Arians, Deshaun Watson & more + Nate Tice & Ted Nguyen's Super Bowl LV Xs & Os

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

Former NFL QB Carson Palmer joins the show to discuss playing QB for Bruce Arians, advice for Matthew Stafford and Deshaun Watson and details his mindset late in his career. Plus The Athletic's football film guru Ted Nguyen stops by to dig into some Chiefs-Bucs film study, and Nate Tice brings some formation concepts to watch out for in Super Bowl LV. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Really fun show for you guys today. Ted Winn is going to be joining us a little bit later to talk about two of his favorite concepts and ideas from this game. Nate and I are going to be diving deep into this game. We hit it from every single possible angle I could just even conceive. Before we get to those guys, though, I'm very excited to welcome longtime NFL quarterback, long time Bruce Ariens quarterback, Carson Palmer.

Carson, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on, Robert. Absolutely. So let's just start kind of with some of the ins and outs of that offense because I was always so fascinated by it when you guys ran it back in the day. And that 2015 season, it's one of my favorite offensive performances. And it's kind of offensive systems that I've ever gotten to watch.

And I was always kind of marveled at the idea of the high degree of difficulty just because of all the downfield passing and just how precise it all looked. So when you're watching the Bucks offense now and Tom Brady stepping into that, what aspects of playing in that offense were most difficult because of that high degree of difficulty? What did it take a while for you to really hone in that system? You know, I think what made us so successful and it's just the mentality of that style of plays. Yeah. You're not going to put together 20 play drives and go down the field from your own 20 and

go 80 yards and 15 to 20 plays. That's not what it's designed to do. It's not a clock controlling game management system. It's we're here to win. We're going to take our shots. And even when our shots aren't there, we need to take shots to make them feel that we're going to take shots to open up the underneath game.

And then we'll get back to taking more shots. And so, you know, I think it's so difficult because there's so many difficult throws in that system, so many down the field throws. And what's amazing about Brady is he comes from such a different style of player, where it is a game management. It is controlling the clock. It's letting your defense win the game or keeping it close enough to get one last possession at the end of the game and win it with a field goal or a touchdown. And that's just not Bruce's style and that's not what Brady's been used to. Bruce's style, you know, the no risket, no biscuit and all the things that are said about his coaching style.

That's just the way he sees the game. He knows how difficult it is. he knows it's so hard to put together multiple 10 to 15 plus play drives. It's just not realistic in today's day and age. You got to take your shots. And when your shots are open, you got to hit them. So, you know, it's one of those systems that, you know, those 40, 50, 60 yard throws are not easy. They do fall in complete.

You do overthrow guys. You do underthrow guys. And sometimes, you know, bad things happen when you're taking shots. to take a sack fumble at the top of a long play action, seven step, long developing play. But Bruce is willing to give up some sacks for some big chunks, 60, 70-yard throws down the field. And in today's day and age,

with all the analytics and all the young coaches that want to manage the game and come up with a bunch of funky, tricky ways to get mismatches and throw five-yard routes to running backs out of the backfield or short crossing routes to guys over the ball, Bruce doesn't see the game that way. He doesn't want to put together,

you have to put together 20 play drives. He wants to score in one or, you know, go 80 yards and two or three plays. That's his style. Was there a concept in particular that it took you a little while to really get comfortable with, but when you guys did,

you felt like you made a lot of hay on it? Everything took a while to get comfortable with. I mean, that first year was so frustrating. I mean, there was so many, you know, I was the new quarterback in a new system, and a lot of the players were the same quarter, the same players from the previous year or years prior, but it was a new system.

And so we didn't have great rapport yet in the first year. We didn't, you know, I didn't feel comfortable reading guys body language to getting ready to throw in the ball when they're getting ready to break in or getting ready to break out or go deep. I mean, those are things that take time and they take trust.

And you don't develop trust sitting in Zoom meetings, you know, during the pandemic, guys in your team. You develop trust over time on the practice field in preseason games. You know, those are things that didn't happen for Tampa this past year in Brady's first year. And that's one of the things that's so crazy about statistically what they did was this is year one. When this offense takes off, it's year two and year three. So if Brady can play till he's 44 and put together another year, it can be really exciting in 2021 and 2022. It was interesting to me watching the first game between these teams because the Chiefs brought so much heat.

And I think that they probably had this mindset of we're not going to give them time to attack down the field. And the Bucks had to play underneath for most of that game. How did the Hots and the way they worked differ in that system from some of the others that you played in? It changed every week. And that was frustrating things early on is, you know, we'd install it one way and then it would change the next week, then it would change the week after.

And it would always change for the better to attack that specific defense. hopefully more productively. But it was so difficult. I mean, depending on your alignment, how close you are to the next receiver, what defender is blitzing, what protections called me. There's so many factors that can change, you know, a concept where players are running, you know, a deep out or a deep post, and all of a sudden now it changes so they're running, you know,

a pick blocking play, which is totally crazy that those kinds of things happen for multiple players at one time in the matter of a split second. So it's just, it's just really difficult for the quarterback. It's really difficult for the receivers and tight ends and running backs because the one, you know, you get it built into your head. This is how we're going to do this. When we're a line in this way and they blitz, this is how we're going to do it. This week we're going to break in. Next week they're going to break out. And so you get to 14, 15, 16, 17 weeks in the season. And things are always evolving and changing and changing to help you, you know, hopefully be more efficient when you're playing that next opponent. But it's really, really, it's a, it's mental

hurdles. You have to get past. You have to study. And I think that's one thing that I'm sure these bucks players were like, man, we spent the first half of our careers just kind of showing up, practicing and working hard. Now we got to go home and work just as hard studying and learning our hots and learning our adjustments and learning the playbook as we do, you know, on the field, physically running routes and actually practicing. In terms of just your communication, with Bruce, and we had Ryan Lindley on this week talking about those Friday night meetings and just the back and forth that he would have with his quarterbacks. I'm curious what you think is the most important thing you learned about working with him. What do you think you really

needed to understand to make things click between you guys? If I had a question or something I wanted to change, never ask him before 9 a.m. I've learned that one early. If you go in with an idea on something you want to do, make it like 9.30 or 10. for BA or else there's no chance that's going to get changed. He's not a morning person. You know, and you just, you got to have a thick skin. I mean, he's, he's who he is. He's going to, you know, he's going to ride you.

He wants you to be the best player you can be for him and for the team. But if you're not, he's going to find somebody else. And we saw that. I mean, it was a revolving door. There was players getting cut. There were certain players that kept getting yelled at day, day in, day out for a week or two weeks or three weeks. And then they were gone because they couldn't figure out how to adapt to

the offense continuously evolving and changing. I think one of the things we talked about earlier, his bluntness and his honesty is refreshing for a lot of guys. I'm sure it's been refreshing for Brady, who is in such a very unique situation for such a long time, 20 years in New England, and then a totally different kind of head coach in every way, from offensive-minded to defensive-minded to the way they handle the media,

to the way they handle the players individually. I mean, you look at Belichick and Bruce, and those are two opposite ends of the spectrum. The one thing they have in common is they're both old school and they were brought up in the old school days of football. But I think Bruce's, his bluntness and his honesty has been refreshing for a lot of guys that have crossed past, you know, cross Bruce's path at some point later on in their career.

Do you remember anything where he just like really cut you down? Like when there was a moment where that bluntness was like you had to sit with it for a second? Like it took you a while to bounce back? Yeah, I mean all the time. I mean, he would put players on blast all every meeting, every film session. Even after a win, watching a win on Monday after you played well on Sunday and you, you know, he felt like you threw the ball pretty well and you won by, you know, three scores. He never let up.

And I think that's, you know, part of the tough. toughness that his team has at this point in the years, season's been hard, but nothing's been more difficult than dealing with Bruce and him being on you day in, day out of practice, you know, right after games, even after wins, especially after losses. You know, that hardens you, that toughens you up. And I'm sure that that Tampa team is tough. And it just seems like bringing him in, you talk about just the way that he would

kind of shift culture and change things. How did you guys feel that? How did you feel kind of the, just the overall environment and the building was different with Bruce than it might have been with other coaches that you'd had previously in your career. Because I'm just curious how things might have changed when he got there last season. Because so many of the guys are the same, the players are, but they're just having so much more success.

And the field there is just maybe a little bit different than it might have been under previous regimes. Yeah, I mean, he comes in, he came in to Arizona right, right when I had gotten there. He had just gotten there. And I think the team had won like three games the year before. And he was talking about a Super Bowl. in the very first meeting. And I'm sure a lot of players are like, huh? Like Super Bowl, we got picking the draft because we're not very good.

And the draft was right around the corner. And I don't think players had initially bought in right away. And then he starts talking about Super Bowls and rings and being the best. And just that kind of coach speak on a daily basis. When you're used to hearing that over and over and over again, you start to go, well, he doesn't fluff you up. he doesn't overhype you. You know, maybe he's being real.

Maybe we really do have a chance. He's been there before. He's won Super Bowls. He knows what it takes. Let's follow that guy. And that's the kind of, you know, intensity and respect that came with Bruce. When you guys were rolling that year in 2015, does it feel different when that offense is clicking compared to other systems just because of how aggressive it is and what it looks like when it's going well? No, I mean, you got to be a realist, too.

I mean, at some point, if you're a quarterback and you've played long enough, when you're scoring 30-something points a game and leading the league and statistical categories, you know it can go the other way like that. Sure. If you try to do too much or if you start believing the hype or you're hearing the media talk about how unstoppable you are on offense, you can get stopped real quick and humbled real quick. So, you know, I never really felt unstoppable. I felt like we had a bunch of confidence as an offense.

going into games, but we also had a lot of vets that knew that you can't take last week for granted. And just because you put great film on tape the past month, it doesn't mean anything for the upcoming Sunday. You still got to go out and prove and work for it and go out and get it when the opportunity comes. So, you know, there was never a sense of we can't be stopped. I think our confidence was sky high, but we all were realist and had been in the league long enough to know that you can get humbled by a team that's 0 and 8.

or 0 and 13 or 0 and 14 real quick. At this level, everybody's got good players, even the teams that don't have wins yet. I'm really interested in kind of that process of being traded to Arizona, and even to Oakland to a certain degree, because Matthew Stafford's in a really similar situation right now. It's a former number one overall pick that's changing teams, you know, a little bit into his 30s, the same way that you did. So when you did that, when you came to Arizona, how were you thinking about yourself

and your career in that moment at what you wanted to be for a new franchise? I mean, I was just excited at a new opportunity, fresh scenery. I remember right when I got there, I was really blown away with Michael Bidwell's desire to win, Steve Kimes' desire to win, you know, the way they talked that, you know, it's Super Bowl or nothing. It's not about winning a division. It's not about having a winning record. It was about getting to a Super Bowl. And that was an everyday talk.

And that was the way things were designed from the top down, from Michael Bidwell all the way down. That's what was, everything was based on. And anything we needed as players, Michael was like, does this make us, does this get us closer to a championship? Does this make us better? Get it. We need that. And from a player, when you're a player and you feel like the organization is willing to do

whatever it takes to win, it's much easier to play like you're willing to do whatever it takes to win. When you know the organization is putting just as much in as you are as the player and as the team, that's a very comforting feeling. What would you say is just the biggest hurdle when you have to change franchises at that point in your career? It was the thing you had to get used to moving your family, just everything else, I mean deep into your career like that. Yeah, I think moving families and changing locker rooms and all that gets overblown.

Most athletes, and I know myself, I moved around a ton growing up as a kid bouncing around from place to place. You know, I never saw that as a hurdle that was exciting. I think the biggest thing is just a new playbook. a new scheme, new terminology, a new language, really. I went from, you know, a digit system where everything was numerical, and play calls had numbers to, you know, a word system where there were no numbers. Every play was some sort of grouping of words that told each individual player what to do and who to block.

So I think the new terminology, and you saw that a little bit in Tampa this year, there was some miscommunications. He threw it in, the receiver broke out, the ball's 10 feet over a guy's head He never see Brady miss like that. It was a miscommunication. That's the biggest thing that Tom had to deal with in his move and his transition is all of a sudden, you got a new style of coaching, you've got a new language to learn, and you've been doing it and probably built what they were doing with that coaching staff in New England to really be tailored

towards him. And now it's not tailored towards him. It's tailored towards the way that Bruce wants to do it. And Tom had to adapt and learn. It took them some time. They struggled early on the season. And they look like they didn't look like they're going to the Super Bowl in week two, three, four. They did.

Or even in week eight. Or week eight, yeah. I mean, it's taking them a while, but I'm not surprised at how long it took them to be comfortable. Both you and Stafford in kind of changing locales at that point, you guys are both really gifted throwers of the football. When you got into like your early and mid-30s, how did you feel that physical change? Like how did you kind of have to adapt your body and your expectations for yourself as a thrower as you. got deeper into your career. Well, I just started cutting back on throws. I mean, I was always, especially up until 28, 29, I was just a gym rat. I wanted to throw every ball in practice.

I didn't want to ever be taken out of practice. I didn't want to miss a rep. I wanted to stick around afterwards and throw routes to the receivers. If I missed a ball in practice, I had that receiver stick around with me and we worked that route a couple times after practice. And then you get to be 29, 30, 32, 33, and you don't need to stress your body and stress your arms in those ways. You know, your mind has learned how to do the drop, how to throw the ball, technically, how to be sound, how to be on balance, all those things. You don't need to go out and throw 50 curl routes or 60 comeback routes, where when I was young, I did. And then all of a sudden I realized, man, my arm doesn't feel the same the next day. It's a little bit sore.

I don't quite have the same velocity. I don't quite have the same zip. And then you go, why is that? Is it because I'm old? No, it's because I threw, you know, 77 balls yesterday in practice. So I got to be on, you know, essentially a pitch count with Buddy Morris, the strength coach at Arizona, who is absolutely the best in the business. And he showed me and tracked.

We watched the velocity of certain throws. We watched how many balls I threw on Wednesday, on Thursday, on Friday. He was out there standing next to me in practice with a clicker, clicking every throw, every throw of 10 yards, every throw of 50 yards. When we had it down to a science where I could get to Sundays and my arm felt great. I felt refreshed. I felt rejuvenated. And I, you know, I really cut back on Fridays in practice, you know, as I got into my mid to late 30s.

Do you feel like your arm strength deteriorated at all? Was that always there? It was just a matter of managing it. I felt like, especially after my mid-year-old. mid-30s. My arm strength on off-balance throws started to show that I was losing some zip. I used to be able to kind of stand the pocket and just sling one out to the right. As I got older and I did lose a little bit of that zip. I had to make sure I pivot and get my body and my weight and my momentum going into the throw

to get that same zip. But as long as I had my feet underneath me and I was able to step into the throw and transfer my energy and weight through the throw, I never felt as I got older that I lost that velocity I had as a young guy. And also, I mean, obviously, you were in a very specific situation in Cincinnati, similar to what Deshawn Watson might be going through right now. What would you say was the hardest part of kind of digging your heels in in that situation and kind of sticking by your guns?

Yeah, I just think he's going to get really frustrated with the organization. He's going to get more and more frustrated with the organization. He's going to start hearing so-and-so offered three first-round picks and so-and-so offered this, so-and-so offered this, and then if they don't trade him, he's going to, you know, at some point, he's going to feel like I did where, like, you know they have a chance to get a bunch of picks for you, or they get nothing, and they're willing to take nothing. So that, you know, that amplifies his point is they're not really trying to do everything they can to win a Super Bowl. And Deshawn's looking at it going, man, I only have so many years in my prime.

And they hired Bill O'Brien and they made him the GM and that was a mess. And they're going to mess up the next hire. And then before you know it, he's going to be well past his prime and have zero Super Bowls. So I think that's probably what's weighing. I can't speak specifically for exactly how he's feeling. But that's sure what it looks like from my angle. When you were weighing the pros and cons when you eventually did make that decision, what were the big ones?

Like how did you kind of weigh those in your mind? Well, I mean, the con was I wasn't going to get to play football. anymore. And the pro was, I'd get to a place like Arizona and make a run. So that's the tough part for Deshaun. I mean, he's, he's looking at it going, man, the con is if I might not get to play football next year, if I stick to it and dig my feet deep in the ground and they don't trade me, then I'm going to be watching football next year. And the pro is maybe he goes to a place, you know, who knows, maybe he goes somewhere that's a Super Bowl contender. The first year he's there that doesn't really need all those first round draft picks that they're going to have.

have to give up for him. So it's a tough spot. It's a tough spot for the organization, no doubt. It's a tough spot for Deshawn. But we'll see. You know, time will tell. And at some point, somebody's going to have to budge, right? Absolutely.

And I commend you still to this day the fact that you didn't and got where you got to because it was fun watching you in the back after your career. I really appreciate the time, man. Thank you so, so much for doing this. I know you're really busy. No problem. No problem. Thanks for having to enjoy the game on Sunday.

Sounds good. We'll do. Talk to you later. Take care. We couldn't do an X's and O's preview, and we couldn't do a big athletic preview without having Ted Nguyen on to talk about a couple of concepts that are his favorites, the one that he's looking for during Super Bowl 55. Ted, thanks for doing this, buddy. It's always going to chat with you. No problem. Good to chat. And, you know, you put out some great content this week and just keep going, man, where you're almost at the finish line.

I appreciate that. I definitely needed that right now. It is currently 8 p.m. Eastern right now. It's definitely feeling like the tank is getting near empty, but we're almost there, and I'm very excited to do this. So let's do it. We're going to do one concept that you're excited about that you're looking for on each side of the ball. So let's start with when the bucks have the ball.

What is the one concept that you really, it popped up a lot in your preparation this week that you're going to be keeping eye on Sunday? So the chiefs are the biggest RPO team, in a league, run-pass option team in a league. And they just killed the Bucks defense with RPO's in week 12 when they played them. And one particular RPO that they run a lot is a slide wheel RPO. They usually run it out of 12 personnel with two tight ends, one tied on each side.

The tie down on their backside runs a wheel. The titan on the front side runs a slide to the back side. And Mahomes, when he keeps the ball, he gets to. choose between throwing between the wheel and the slide. But when they played the Buccaneers, instead of having a tight end run the wheel route, they had Tirek Hill, jet motion from one side to the other, and run that wheel route.

And obviously, Tariq Hill is a lot faster than a tight end. And they had a lot of problems. And the Bucks had a lot of problems handling that RPO. The first play of the game in week 12 was that jet motion to Hill. And I think Mahomes just saw that corner just kind of, to play press and not get deep. And he just decided to throw it. I don't even know what his reads are on this RPO.

But it just seems like when they see that they think that Hill's going to have an advantage running that motion and nobody's backing off, they're just going to throw it. So it's going to be interesting to see how the bucks adjust and how they play that RPO. And I'm sure Annie Reid's going to have kind of a counter to what he thinks that the bucks are in a counter with. It's really interesting because I was thinking the same thing while going back and watching the first half earlier today. to watch the rest of it.

But in the first half, I mean, just so many RPO's. And that's why I think that I don't know just if you can run zone defense against them again. Because if you're going to do that, they just seem so content to be hitting guys over the middle. Not only that RPO down the left sideline, but some really explosive RPO's on just backside glance and slant routes. And that's one area where it just feels like running a bunch of zone defense against this team again just isn't going to be a viable strategy because they're more than willing. to just RPO you to death,

whether it's the wheel or whether it's stuff over the middle of the field. Yeah, it's essentially their quick passing game. Yeah, if you're in zone, they're going to move you with the run game.

And even the funny thing with Mahomes is even when the reed tells him he should hand the ball off, if he thinks he could make that throw and he can make a lot of these throws that doesn't look like they're going to be open, he's going to pull it and he's going to throw it. So when you look at the stat sheet

at the end of the game, it doesn't look like any, Reed called a bunch of runs, but he actually did. He called a bunch of RPOs, but Mahomes just kept it and threw the ball. So that's kind of extension of their quick game and their run game. It really feels like they're putting so much more on his plate. I mean, they've always run a lot of RPO's within that system from the moment he became the quarterback. But the fact that he's reading corners on some of these RPO's now, the fact that it doesn't really matter what the box count is. His autonomy within the offense to just essentially do whatever he wants feels like it's grown.

Would you say that's fair? Yeah, and I think this is a skill that I kind of saw that he had in college that's kind of hard to find where, you know, it's kind of like the vision cone in Madden where, you know, like some guys have just focused in on this one key. Like if this linebacker moves, I'm going to throw it. But he kind of sees the whole field. So when he's reading an RPO, he could read two or three receivers, or maybe not two or three, but two receivers at once on RPO. and he's reading it whether he's going to hand off the ball or not too. So he kind of sees the field and if something's open, he's going to pull it and he's going to throw it.

It's just kind of a strange awareness that I think is pretty rare. You were one of the few guys that kind of clearly had him as the number one quarterback in that draft. I remember when you tweeted about it kind of in the moment. What about watching him in college and that Texas text tape made you that confident? Because I feel like I've said this before. It's almost with Mahomes, Andy Reid looked at him the way that Michelangelo or somebody would look at like a slab of granite or slab of marble. Like you had to see something in it that other people didn't necessarily. What did you see even back then that you thought would translate?

Well, I mean, when you're looking at Mahomes, obviously you see the physical tools. And at that time, when I was looking for things I liked in quarterbacks, I wasn't really into that gunslinger quarterback to just throw up a bunch of passes. even if he had all the physical traits. But when you watch Mahomes and you watch him a lot, you could tell he has a process. There is a method to his madness, and it's kind of hard to put a finger on because it's not a usual process,

but you could tell he's thinking through this game a different way. And I also saw a clip of him trying to explain his reads and how he sees things. And it just sort of clicked that he just has a different awareness, and he's able to just kind of see things and react and just find open receivers in a different way that other quarterbacks can. You really should pin that tweet to the top of your Twitter. I would just, I would remind people like every three days that I had said that.

So you're a much better and much more humble person than I am. All right, let's go to the other side of the ball. When the bucks have the ball, what's one specific concept that you're really honing in on and watching for? You know, when you brought this up to me, I was actually thinking, about a Bucks defensive coverage that they haven't they didn't use that much during the regular season but they started using a lot more in the postseason. Is that all right? We pivot to the defense. Yeah, that's, let's do it. That sounds great. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah. So in the regular season, you know, they, I thought they mixed it up a lot, but they played a lot of soft coverage.

And I thought at times it did a disservice to the type of defensive backs they did. They have because Carlton Davis, Jamal Dean, those guys could press. They're physical. But they didn't use that many press looks. And in the postseason, they started pressing receivers. According to PFF, they gave press looks 18% more than they did in a regular season. And one of those press cover seven. It's a quarter's coverage where they have the ability to bracket two different receivers.

And it's a coverage of chiefs use a lot. And obviously, it's going to be extremely useful against the chiefs. because they're going to have to bracket two guys. They have to bracket Hill and they have to bracket Kelsey, but it leaves one-on-ones with other guys. So I think you're going to see Jamal Dean bracket Hill in the slot a lot. You're going to see Kelsey bracketed a lot. And that's going to leave Carlton Davis one-on-one with guys on the outside.

I think Sammy Watkins' health is going to be huge in this game because to me he's their best man-beating receiver outside of the top two guys, obviously. and I think he's going to get a lot of one-on-one opportunities and he's going to have to win on outside. So you think that when there's three corners on the field, you envision Murphy bunting on hill in the slot or Dean on Hill on the slot and Murphy bunting on the outside when they play this?

Oh, sorry, bunting is their nickel corner. So I see bunting inside. Yeah, bumping hill a lot with the bracket over top. So I think the theory is, you know, you can bracket Hill inside with a weaker corner because he has a help from somebody else, and then you're going to leave your better corner one-on-one outside with whoever's going to be outside.

That's why I think having Watkins healthy is going to be such a big deal. Obviously, you know, Mikkel Hardman has a lot of speed too, but I just think Watkins is just much craftier as a guy that could beat man coverage. So when Hill's outside, do you envision Davis staying with him when he's outside and just not moving with him to the slot? Yeah, I think they'll have, they'll have, Carl Dauv to Davis outside too and they'll find a way to bracket him outside or maybe they'll play a regular two man on outside on one side to his side too. But I think, you know, he'll plays a lot

more in a slot and I think cover seven is going to be a good answer to try to contain this chief's defense offense, but, you know, we'll see what they could do. I think they'll be better than they were against the chiefs in that first half because they're not going to play just a straight cover one against them. So, to explain the difference between two man and cover seven, because they have similarities is the way that I understand it, but explain to people what the kind of nuances of each one are. So in two man, you have a safety over to top and everybody else that's playing man underneath, they're going to play trail techniques. But in cover seven, it is a too high defense as well, but those safeties are focused on bracketing a receiver to their side. So the outside

corner is not going to play with the trail technique because he's not going to have safety help. The only guy that's going to have safety help is the guy that they choose the bracket. So it's going to be probably the nickel and a safety on the slot. So that safety is not really playing a deep zone technique. He's playing a bracket technique. So in the first time these two teams played the first time, there was a coverage that kind of looked like that, but the safeties weren't playing too deep. They were almost like lined up in the same spot just waiting to double Hill and Kelsey. If you were trying to characterize, that. Would you call that cover seven?

Yeah, that sounds like cover seven because those safeties aren't going to play. They're not dropping deep. They're kind of playing a flat foot technique and waiting for the receiver release to see how they're going to play it. We're going to get into this a ton with Nate. That's how I would, if I was going to live and die in this game, that's how I'd go. Playing aggressive, understanding that I'm not going to let them have free releases. I'm not going to sit back in a play zone. It's a risk, right, to play like that.

It's absolutely a risk to play man against them with that sort of physicality and with that sort of aggressiveness. But I just think if you look at some of the teams that have had success points this year, whether it's the Saints who play a lot of two men, other teams that have just said, we're going to muscle you. And I understand that we're going to live it on the edge by doing that. But it really does feel like it dovetails well with how the Bucks defense has been playing over the last couple weeks. and some of the teams we've had see relative success against the Chiefs this season. Yeah, and the weakness in two-man is you don't have a guy, a spy in the middle with the eyes on the quarterback. So, you know, but with Mahomes, fine with this turf dough injury against the Bills. But I wonder how reliant they are in their four-man rush against the Chiefs this time around

because the Chiefs' offensive lines is so beat up. So I think in the beginning, Bulls should take a less aggressive approach because it's in his DNA to want to blitz. But I think in the beginning of the game, he should see how his four-man rushed is doing against that beat-up Chiefs defensive line. And if they could win handedly and keep Mahomes contained, then maybe he doesn't have to blitz as much and have more guys in coverage. Absolutely. I think aggressiveness just with the technique your corners are playing. But in terms of allocating resources, I think you absolutely should be allocating them in the back end.

You're not going to need to bring extra bodies because you have an advantage there. It's really your only advantage, I would say, personnel-wise. So it seems simplistic, but man underneath with either two guys over the top or bracketing those two guys with a four-man rush, that just feels like the right formula, even if you're a little bit worried about plays Mahomes can make outside of the pocket. I'm thinking about one specific play down in the red zone

or near the red zone. The first time these two teams played, it was third and eight, I want to say. They played this coverage. Mahomes gets out of the pocket. The corner steps up and he hits Watkins for like an eight-yard gain first down. Barrett had a strip sack on the next play so it didn't end up mattering. But that's the risk you run.

If you do that, if he's going to escape, it's going to be another wrong answer. But it still feels like to me the way that you'd want to try to find answers with this team is with that sort of defensive approach. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's not just one defensive. approach. I think that's a good coverage to have and you have to have it in your toolbox, but it's got to be, yeah, it's got to be a menu of things you throw at them because, you know, there's no

formula to beat the chief's offense that we've seen. And as much as people want to just try to simplify and say there is a formula, there is no one formula. That's a good tool that you have to have and you have to be able to execute well, but you have to have, you know, a bunch of things to throw at him and keep them off balance. Is there a zone look or either like even a zone blitz look that you feel like could be a little bit of a wrench and a little bit of a change-up that would work well in a certain specific situation? I'm putting you on the spot. I think, I don't know if there's one specific look, but I just think that you have to do what Spacknola is doing on the other side of the ball. And you just have to keep them off-bound with the pre-snap looks.

You can't let him feel comfortable knowing what he's going to see pre-snap. So you're going to have to keep your safeties moving, give a soft coverage look, and then zone blitz from that look. and you have to hold on to that disguise as long as you can without compromising your defense. So it's just a ton you have to prepare for with this Chief's offense. I'm really curious if they'd be willing to kind of be static against motion, where if they know they're playing man or they know they're playing zone, they don't have guys travel with certain motions in order to not give indicators because several different times in the first time these two teams played,

they'd have Kelsey out wide motioning him in just to get information pre-snap. I'm wondering if they try to screw with that stuff a little bit. There's a danger in doing that because you mess with the integrity of your zone defenses possibly by having a safety outside, et cetera. But again, it just feels like if you're going to do something wonky, this is the game to do something wonky. Yeah, for sure. And we've seen some more creative defenses do that where they'll give a man indicator and end up dropping zone.

And you have two weeks to prepare so you can't have time to put in things like that. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bowles, who is one of the more creative defensive coordinators in the league puts into defense like that. Well, it's going to be a mystery for everybody. I'm very excited to watch it. These are a couple of things to watch for. Ted, thank you very much at the time, man. Always get to chat with you.

Enjoy the game. Enjoy the very limited offseason that we're going to get. I'm sure we'll talk down the road here. Yep, right after this is draft season. So we're going to have two weeks off and then it's going to be free agent time. So I'm very much looking forward to it, but that's just how it goes. All right, buddy. We'll talk to you later.

All right. Talk to you later. I'm very excited now to welcome my good buddy, the guy I'm going to just dig all the way in on this game with. Nate Tice, Nate, how are you, man? I am great. We've come a long way from the NFC North preview. Oh, it's so true.

It's so true. What a fun first year and just a fascinating game. I mean, the Super Bowl always has so much stuff to talk about, but I just feel like the schematic elements of this. I mean, there's no shortage of little nitty, gritty, nerdy, granular things we can dig into, and we're going to. I tried to give us a little bit of a roadmap to lay this out. So I have some specific questions for you.

Just again, give us some shape to this conversation. So this is another game that's a rematch. We've had so many of them in the playoffs, it seems like. Obviously, the conference championship games, both those games involved, rematches from earlier in the season. And it gives you a sense of what these teams thought about each other at least at one point during the year. So you and I have both gone back and watched that week.

12 game, I think, more than once this week and over the course of the last couple weeks. So let's start. What's your biggest takeaway from that game? What do you think is the number one lesson you learned are the most important thing that you kind of, that stoked your brain as you were rewatching that game? Yeah. And this is going to be kind of a simple answer, but there's no single right answer to stop the chiefs. I mean, that's, that is the number one takeaway I got because Bulls does enough differences in what he runs that it's kind of like you got to see. okay, what's the chief's answer versus this coverage?

What's the chief's answer versus this coverage? And seeing it over and over and bulls trying defense coordinator, top bulls trying to throw different things at the chief's offense throughout an entire game and changing it up by the quarter and just still seeing chiefs answer it. I think that was my biggest takeaway for it. I mean, just you can sum it up nicely just with the Tyree kill touchdowns. Like the first one that you and I were texting about yesterday and just like, you're just like, I can't believe that play.

the out and up to Tyreek with with the throw up from a homes that's like a 60 yard laser. I just think that play is just like a perfect encapsulation with the chief's offense because it's nothing crazy. It's a 15 yard out and up, which, you know, that's kind of the chiefs. It's, you know, cranked up to 11. Usually that's at 12 yards. They do it at 16. And then they have a couple, you know, it's like a bender and a dig on the back side.

And on that play, being in 12 personnel, the Bucks have to match with base. The Bucks are going to match. They don't have to. They don't have to, but they're going to. Dave, I got a stat. I had our good friend, Bill Barnwell, looked this up for me. And I asked them, I was like, how many times have the Bucks matched 12 personnel with nickel? There's been 166 snaps of 12 personnel that the Bucks defense has faced.

And they've only gotten nickel on 23 of those snaps. Do you think that's a mistake? Do you think in this game that is something they have to switch up? Because I wasn't going to get into this right now. but I literally have in my notes in no base in caps because I just I understand you're going against

what you're comfortable with but I still feel like if you're just think about this conceptually if you're thinking about what the chiefs are I know the bucks are such a good run defense in part because they allocate their resources to stop the run but they also have guys who are good at playing the run

that's kind of my takeaway from this is that I just don't understand why you would not try to defend the run with a few fewer bodies in order to just give yourself a better chance against the past. I want to trust Vitavaya and Indama Kinsu and those linebackers in a slightly lighter boxes more than I want to have my base defense and Carl Nassib dropping into the flat-on plays. That's just not smart. Or the 6-7 Nelson dropping into coverage because on that touchdown, being in 12 personnel, that's why you don't want to keep on base. It's because

Bulls is he runs not too much but he's going to just run his stuff but against base personnel so 12 or 21 is considered what in NFL Parliance that's what we consider base offensive personnel and base defensive personnel would be what your standard 4-3 or 3-4 is and Bulls and the and the bucks defense they are going to play usually a bare front which is you know head up head up on the center covering the guards with the big guys and with that and then that you're very predictable and

getting into the base personnel, what the Bucks or what the chiefs were doing there, they went 12 personnel. They split Kelsey out though, motioned him across and having Kelsey split out as opposed to a typical, when you picture a 12 personnel like two tight end formation, you picture a hip, one tight end in line, the other one maybe just off side or just on a wing set. You know, in this one, splitting Kelsey out being a de facto receiver and the Bucks matching with base, they're in a like just a typical spot drop cover three. And if you guys watch the Ohio State defense in the playoff this year and they just tried around spot drop cover three, it is very predictable and very easy to come up with stuff that beats that.

Like it at 15, 16 yard out and up to Tyree Kill, I guess a corner, even playing with off coverage, they have enough time. They knew what they were getting with Nelson split out number 98. When you get six, seven guys split out, you know, you're sitting pretty pretty. And like I said, that plays like just a perfect encapsulation of Chief's offense because there's nothing crazy. It's nothing just truly exotic, but it's just something standard cranked up to 11. They're in the gun on that formation. It's first down. It's the start of a drive.

It's just, it's just. That's what I'm saying here. What is the worst thing that can happen if you line up in nickel against this? They run for eight yards? Like that, that's what I'm, that's how I'm thinking about this. What is the worst thing that can happen? Build the cases in your mind. Play this out three steps.

And if you're doing that, I just don't think you can ever justify lining up in base defense against this team. You can't and that's what you said too is like the personnel being how they play as a front and then the personnel on top of it. It's like the sugar on the cake. You know, it's like a little too much. It's like it's in wrestling. Sam Punk was with this manager named Paul Heyman and they're both amazing talkers. And it was kind of one of those things where it was like usually you put a talk or like a manager because the wrestler can't talk like that's why Paul Heyman guy was with Brock Brock Lesnar for a while. And then now you put him with CM Punk, who's the pipe bomb, like just this amazing talker

in the business, one of the best of all the time. They put him with Paul Heyman, who's one of the best talkers of all the time. Too much talking. Yeah, just a little sugar on the cake, like a little too much sweetness, like a little too much awesome. Mike, it's like, okay, you guys would split it up. It was still good. I still have a shirt, Paul Heyman shirt.

I'm a Paul Heyman guy. Did I ever tell you, I see CM Punk all the time? Seriously, in my neighborhood. I see him walking, his dog all the time. Oh, my God. Once every two weeks. It's really funny. That's kind of surreal.

Yeah. It's very strange. He's just like a guy. He's like a normal dude. I mean, he's not that big. He's just walking around, walking his dog. It's always funny. That's actually really funny.

That out and up play, I think, is emblematic of so many different things because theoretically when you're playing that spot drop cover three, and I want to use this as a way to explore the chiefs a little bit before we get into some more specific stuff. When you're playing that, that cover three, the depth that Carlton Davis had on that play, he's playing like 10 yards off. Yeah. And it doesn't matter. And that's why I just think that you can't consider things the way you normally would when you play this team.

You can't say zone equals safe. Because if you're thinking that way, it's going to put you into these really bad spots. And that play is such a perfect example of that. It's also a perfect example. And I was thinking this today while watching a couple of their old games. I honestly think Tyree Kill might be the most valuable non-quarterback in the entire NFL. Like I legitimately, like I'd have to go back and forth and really sit. down and think about it with Aaron Donald.

But what he does to those coverages and how quickly he explodes them and the way he changes those zone coverages, it really is unlike anything else that anyone has to face. And that out and up, so many people are going to make so many mistakes thinking Tyreek Hill equals fast, we need fast. And because his ability to change direction on that play and never slow down while making those cuts, he's the only one that can do that. But going back to the zone part a little bit beyond the base, that's the thing that stuck out to me most from the first time that these two teams played is that when the bucks were in zone,

the chiefs were just so happy to RPO them to death. Crushed him. And you just can't play that way. And even if we're looking at the results of the first game, Mahomes was six of nine for, I want to say, about 120 yards and two touchdowns out of man. And those completions to Hill were the plays. But if you go back, don't just look at the numbers on those. Look at the actual process that led to the results.

The really difficult completions. Harry Kills having to make plays over Carlton Davis in traffic. And can he do that? Of course he can. Absolutely can. But I still think you want to make it as hard on them as possible. And if you're sitting back in zone and just creating these huge voids to allow these completions on these RPO's, again, it just, you're thinking about it the wrong way

if you're thinking zone defense equals safe against the Chiefs. Yeah. And it's, it's make coverage is much more fun either. But it's at least with man coverage. Okay, the second touchdown was the classic Tiger Kill, speed of three, just run by and die. That's where you get worried. That is the concern. But that's why if you're going to play man, you can't play single high safety against man.

Correct. And that'll lead to what we, I think we might talk about a little bit. It's, Mahomes is going to torture any blitz you bring. And that's, he gets the ball out so quickly. Even with the banged up chiefs offensive line, I'll talk about this a little later. But like even with the O line banged up, Mahomes is getting the ball out in two seconds, 2.2 seconds, it seems like.

And also he'll scramble around if he feels the hot. We side against the bills where it's like even when it's a five man, five man protection against the pressure, he'll make a guy miss and extend the play. Like that's pretty frustrating to play against. But like playing the man coverage stuff, like if you do try to bring the bullets because it looks like that that's what the bucks will do. They'll just bring the single linebacker trying to bring them up,

create five one-on-ones. That you're trying to create that edginess. We've talked about the Steelers this entire season to create these five one-on-on-one. So you're trying to create edginess in the pocket. Quarterback has a double clutch it. Boom, rush gets home and it's like plays over. But when Mahomes is getting the ball out quick and he's not throwing hot because 90% of the quarterbacks there or more getting better at this, more of being aggressive.

But like just throwing underneath and they wrap defense rallies to tackle. That's what they've been trained. It was the Brady problem in the first game. It's exactly what Brady was doing the first time these two teams play. This is what they've been trained to do. Defense has been trained to do. And off a quarterback's as the counter to it. for two decades now plus.

And Mahomes, on the other hand, is gone, no, I'm going to throw a touchdown against that. And gash you 20 yards down the field and throw a beautiful overball. Like that's so many other guys would just go, oh, I'm going to throw the go because I know I can get this ball out quick. I could go one, two, three out of the gun. And it balls out. It's a timing throw. Even if we don't think of it that way, go balls and fade balls are timing throws. Mahomes is throwing overrouts like timing throws, which is just insanity, which is just the fact that,

he can place those balls and know where he's gone. And that's what speaks to you, what you're saying with Tyreek Hill, because he's the other part of this equation is just, is Tyrick Hill being able to run past any single guy. But it's just, it's unbelievable. And that's also, shoot, I mean,

this is the opening lessons take away. I'll just dive into some of other stuff too. Because like the second touchdown to Hill, on the overrout against man on it, the Bucks also brought games. They just brought D-line games on it. And against the chiefs, wide splits. And we've talked about the last few weeks, especially in comparison to the Ravens

offense going to the Chiefs offense for the Bills was going from very tight splits with the Ravens for their run game to the Chiefs offense, which is heavy, heavy, heavy pass. That looks like almost the old Texas Tech teams. And with that, you're not able to bring the pressures. Mahomes get the ball out quick, but we could see the bucks, and they did this in this game. They do this all season. It's just bringing a shit ton of games, D-line games up front, create an edginess. And that's a way to almost create a pressure. look without bringing a pressure. That's exactly right.

It's a way, that's, they're going to be our way to win this game. Like really, that's the key to it. We're getting to that. Don't you get ahead of my outline? I know,

but I'm rolling. So, all right, let's move to the other side of the ball from the week 12 game. So if you went, when you went back and watched, what were your main takeaways and lessons from when the bucks had the ball?

The offense at this week, really leading into that game, the week 12 game, and then after the buy week is how much fat the buck's offense is trimmed off of what they do. Not that they're a very fatty offense overall. The arians and left which are going to run their shit. It's I think they just have really honed in on what Brady likes and just crank that up and just said,

oh, okay, all right, we'll lower those plays. We'll lower those 12 yard out routes to the field that we got pick six is on. We'll limit that, you know, corner throws. Okay, but we're going to throw some more post balls. We're going to run some more cross-progression reads, you know, left to right, right-to-left, cross-field progression reads. And we're going to give Brady more ability to control stuff at the line. I think that is the biggest takeaways I've seen is because starting with this week, by week, and then all the weeks after that, the offense exploded. I mean, it really did after the by week.

And the perfect, like, this is a encapsulation of how much more cohesive that this buck's offense has got. In this game, there are no huddle because they got down in the third quarter. trying to go no huddle actually was a fourth quarter and brady signals something to antonio brown and tonyo brown just looked down and goes i i don't know it was hilarious i don't know like just you can just see him say that and brady brady looks at the play clock looks at him and it jogs out tells them to play tells them what to run and it jogs back and it was one of the funniest things i've seen in a while i know is that the one you had issues with fast forwarding right because you're just an autopilot oh my i was trying to fast forward it on it's it was so funny when you post that

this week. So just for people that know, first of all, GamePass was just awful. Wanted to ruin my life this week. It was signing me out every 30 seconds. But on GamePass, you just get in such a mode where you click and you hit the arrows to fast forward and rewind. So you posted that clip on Twitter and I clicked it and tried to fast forward to the end zone few. And I was like, well, that's not how Twitter works. I've done that way more. So when I would do data entry, you know, as a quality control guy, especially is you're using XOS or DV Sport, which is two software systems. systems for film and you know you got your keyboard and mouse and that's that's the way you know

keyboard mouse keyboard mouse but you can control all the speed with everything with your d pad because most coaches you have the cowboy remotes what the clicker yeah yeah clicker I would use the d pad because then I could wouldn't take my hands off the keyboard because I can do it quicker and so like but sometimes when you're doing that all day or for a few hours and then you go home and you're watching like a YouTube video or like going on Twitter and so it's just like you still do it and you're just like oh what what would I just do what I just do it's just it's just it's just Yeah, it's muscle memory and stuff. That's actually funny.

I got to bring a story real quick. Is the genius quality control coach actually is Jeep Chris, is Paul Chris's brother who's been around. You've met Jeep, I think, a few times. But he had when he was the quality control coach with the Bears in the 90s, he was the only one. He was offense, defense, and special teams quality control coach. There's so much times have changed.

So when he had, he was, he's so smart. Jim Chris is a very smart man. What he did was he configured the fast forward, rewind to his feet. So you do on a foot pedal. He did as a foot pedal. And so he never had to take his hands off the keyboard. So you could just keep typing and typing and typing and typing and doing everything.

That's how you got to do it. I need that rig in my house. I know. And now he's configured it. What I heard last was he did to a PS2 controller or a PS3 controller. And he did some, he hotkeyed and all that. It's like some of these guys are geniuses. You need actual tech savvy to be a good.

Exactly. But he's a football coach in the NFL. So, yeah. I want to talk about that. And I think that when I watched that game, the thing that really jumped out to me was just how edgy Brady was in the pocket. And he was,

his internal clock in that game was so screwed up. It was, the calibrations on it were completely off. Because he's getting rid of the ball quick when they're bringing pressure. But even when he had time, he's dumping underneath, especially in the first half,

because he's just so sped up. And there are plays where he has a pocket and he's flipping it at it, at Gronker, Cameron Brayette's knee, four yards past the line of scrimmage, just to get the ball out. And the crossers and some of the stuff that they've done, I think has not only been a good way to have Brady see the game,

but I think it gives them more answers versus pressure too. Because he's seeing stuff in front of him that's a little deeper. So it's not as if, all right, I have to get this out. And I think that you saw that in the second half of that game is Brady was more willing to push the ball down the field, even against pressure, the one that sticks out. I mean, there's a couple down the sideline to Mike Evans,

but the one down the pipe to Gronk when they had O'Kerfor on him. And that's just, it's a tough throw, right? But even being willing to make that when they're bringing extra bodies toward the quarterback, I just think that's so important. We talked about it with Sheel earlier this week. The Chiefs brought six guys on seven dropbacks in that game. Brady had faced six or more pass rushers than only 37 rushes all season. It was such an outwire in how they were at.

attacking him. And when they're going to play like that, you can't just be focused on getting the ball out because then you're playing into their hands. They want you to do that. They want you to throw hot. They want you to just dink and dunk. You have to make them pay when they're going to play like that because they are. They're going to bring pressure in this game. It's how they live right now. And Brady hasn't been that good at it this year. We talked about with Carson Palmer earlier on today's show. It's an intricate hot system that changes all the time. In the first season, it's going to be hard to get a feel for it. He doesn't have it inside and out the way that he did in New England. So the familiarity and the amount of time he's played has a lesser impact this season

than it has in years past. And that's why teams have been willing and able to bring pressure. They're going to do it. It's just a matter of how you attack them after that. And we'll get to some of those ways. But I just think that transition to stuff coming over the middle, a little bit deeper options against some of those pressure looks, that's going to be a huge part of what the bucks can do and how this game could be different. than the first one. Yeah, a perfect play for Brady trying to get the ball out quick because he knows its pressure. It was a third and two and the bucks lined up Antonio Brown in the backfield.

And, you know, fun, fun little third down look, which is kind of crazy for Ariens because he's not that kind of, that he's not, he's more of a traditional design formation. But people who can't see, they just shimmied in his chair. Yeah, shit. He's not really a shimmyer. Yeah, he's not a shimier. but so with with so they have Antonio brown in the backfield there and on it the chiefs are bringing a cover zero and you you picture cover zero on your head you're thinking the crazy all out engage eight uh you know all this stuff but spags on the look or the chief's defense on the look they kind of hold a single high safety and that guy comes down to cover a dig route on it the uh the bucks ran a drive concept which is uh usually going to be a wheel a drag route you know crosser or in a dig behind it some other combination but that's just the base of drive concept that's just the base of drive concept. Very mesh-like. Also, drive on third and two.

Yeah, I know. What an Aryan's, like, bit of bullshit that is. That was truly to, like, it was like, oh, no, we're just going to get the first. Guess what? We have Antonio Brown running a wheel route. But this is why it's pretty crazy on it because Brady's like, okay, I know I have a pressure, but I'm going to have Antonio Brown lined up, hopefully on a linebacker here. We're going to hit this wheel route. And the chiefs.

But he made that decision before the ball was even snapped. Correct. And they snapped the ball. Pressure's coming on them. He throws it. And the chiefs glove it up. I mean, they run the routes for everybody. And Antonio Brown basically gets washed out off the field.

And that's a win. Like when you're, that route has to have about one yard to operate. Like that's, that's going to be a win unless you have some incredible ball winner. And that is like that just speaks to the spags and the chief's defense can live in this world of cover zero and pressure. And they're so sharp with their rules. And even if you want to run something with Antonio Brown running a wheel route against one of our guys, hey, we're going to be fine. Like no one was,

no one panicked. It's pretty, it's pretty crazy to see kind of a, like Greg's Ryan's defenses were always pretty crazy. And the pressures were like, just how much pressures. Even Greg Williams's defenses when they bring this stuff. Sometimes though,

you see a lot of head pop. Like all of a sudden you get routes, switch releases and stuff like that. You see all the DBs going like, oh shoot, you know, like, oh no,

how do I cover this? And the Chiefs defense, they always just seem so calm with this stuff. It's, you know, they can get gashed in the run game, but a lot of this past game stuff, how they pass stuff off and they communicate. They're really well coached. I mean, it's a, it's a crazy kind of chaotic defense, but they just, they're pretty sound. It's so different from watching like the Packers defense, which will try and be aggressive and being so crazy and having two guys in a wrong spot. And the Chiefs defense, it's kind of nice seeing a controlled chaos that they bring on defense. Absolutely. Yeah.

They're never the ones that are out of sorts. They're the ones in control all the time. And I think that's so notable and it really jumps out. The one other thing I wanted to point out about the last game before we move on to some of the other stuff here, the Chiefs several times in some of those more heavy pressure looks when they were bringing six guys, they had three safeties on the field. And Soren said it would be lined up to the offense is right or the offenses left. And then they would bring him into the B gap. And then they'd have the linebacker from the other side of the center come into the same B gap across. They clearly had seen something with the pressure rules and the press. And the way that the bucks blocked that stuff up, that they thought that was going to work.

They did it several different times. Also, one of the reasons you can live in those kind of exotic personnel packages is the bucks were in third down a lot. They were one of five in the first half. They were three of nine in the second half. One of the reasons they were in third down a lot is because on every goddamn first down, they ran duo for four yards. Three yards, four yards.

They cannot do that in this game. They cannot do that in this game. Isn't it remarkable? It's almost like it's like a pace thing, like a timing thing. He's like, all right, it's been four plays, duo. All right, it's been three plays, do it. It's kind of crazy though, right? I honestly got out of, I like cheered sarcastically when they ran a counter on one of those

first downs. I was like, oh my God. They never pull anybody. Two guys on the same play. I was like, oh, that's amazing. And then they ran a play action past the grunk. They cannot do that. They cannot get into those third down looks because if they do, that's when Spag is just throwing

the kitchen sink at you. You can't do that in this game and they did it way too often in the last game. That pressure they brought is a great point though. That is a six-man protection beater. That is a pain in the ass to protect. Why does that work? So on it, I think it was three by one. So the back is weak to the to the quarterbacks left.

and they bring Sorensen as just like a will. If everyone closes their eyes, it's four downline and three linebackers, just for all intents and purposes. They bring the will, which is the runnerback's guy, but they have the Mike man to man on the running back. And so he's green dogging when that runoffack is committing to blocking.

So what the defense is doing is cheating. I mean, not running back is already committed to Sorensen. So there's no one to account for the backside linebacker. The offense aligns guy. that's the mic, that is who they're pointing. They have the four down linemen plus the mic, and that's who they are pointing to to protect.

So that's their guy technically, the guy that is adding on green dogging with the back blocking. So you're putting two, you're cheating the rules. You're putting two guys coming through the same gap technically because the guy is technically not blitzing. He's just adding on, but that's how do you protect as an offense?

Because then you have to know that. You already engaged. That's the property is. Correct. Markpet is already double teaming the nose. He was struggling to come off. Yep. He was struggling to come off every single time it happened. That jumped out to me a lot.

And the nose is hilarious on it. He holds Market. He holds them so he can't bounce off. Oh, I know they're taught to do that. Saddy stuff, man. It's the, oh, NFL. NFL has more of that than people realize. There's more of that little, you think it's like little league BS stuff, like high school, hairy stuff. It's like, no, no, that's in the NFL, like cranked up to 11. We call that the Justin Smith special. All right. So I want to talk very quick quickly because you talked about some of the offensive changes the Bucks have made. And we mentioned on the show with Shield. More play action, more crossers. Those are the two real adjustments they've made down

the stretch. And again, I think it really does fit what Brady does well. And you've kind of seen a convergence and some pairing down of what they like to do offensively. And it served them well. On defense, I think that the biggest change they've made, and the numbers bear this out, so much more press coverage in the last two games. They had no. pressed more than I think 28% of the time in any game this season until the last two weeks. They were 44% pressed against the Saints, 47% pressed against the Packers. I'm doing all of this by memory, so I hope this is right. That's great.

This is a guy that according to next gen stats. And that change, I think, should inform the game plan they're going to have, which we will get to right now. So let's talk about, I want you to tell me, let's start. I want to do the three most important things that we should be watching for when the chiefs have the ball. So why don't you start with number one? Well, I want to steal the Chris Weber joke. The three most important things is my homes wake up.

My homes get on the bus. Then my homes show up to the game. That's the three most. But no, in all seriousness, I think the most important things here is, I'll say an overarching thing. And I really do. There's just one specific concept thing I would do want to talk about. But don't get low to sleep. Don't get too cute.

It's the strip stack by Shaq Barrett. That was winning right away. And that's going to happen. I think with, you know, they have some of the ducks have a talented defensive line, talented front. They'll break some pressures. I think a sack or two is going to happen.

But, no, that's just a guy winning right away. That happens. And the other one was Mahomes trying to scramble up the middle. And defense line brought a game. It was a soft coverage. But again,

it's Andy Reid after a bye week. He's going to have something. It might be the boy band spin thing he's done. It's going to be the quarterback motion. Philly, Philly special that like they ran this game. Spin, thin. Yeah. Oh, man. It might be the insane, like, play on that fourth and one against the Falcons that we laughed out hysterically about, you know, but it's, he's going to throw something out there.

But I think it's for them, it's like, just don't get too cute. Just, you know, I know it's the Super Bowl. I am going to probably bet on over two and a half passers. I know you already did the props podcast was Barnwell, but I do think Andy Reid's going to have something over two and a half passers for this game. But I just think don't get too cute. Don't take the fool's gold like Mahomes did on the second sack. And I think that's the number one key. But really, more schematically, is I think sail routes is going to be a huge thing to watch for in this game. And a sail route is so funny that you say that. It's a, is it is a deep? Because I just, when I was watching some of the older games that teams have played well against them, the underneath defenders got

such good depth getting back into those outside zones in order to take some of that stuff away. And I just thought it was so important. It is. It's so I think so sale is a concept. So it's kind of like a clean X, a Kleenex where you're calling the thing that what it is. It's like a sale concept is a three man concept. So outside you have a go or a post. And the two guys in the inside, you have some combination of like a deep out route from the inside and a flat route. So sale. So yeah, flood, flood. If you think flood concept. Yeah. So sale concept, flood concept interchangeable. And, And a sale route is the route you're on a sale of concept. So there you go.

And so I think the sale routes are going to be huge this game because one on base downs, you know, for rundowns, as we call them, normal down distance, which is first and 10, second of one to six, even some second longs is I think the chiefs are going to try and stay in base and stay in 12 personnel, just like that long touchdown tire kill and try and get the bucks to match in base. Just like we cover three to cover three. Just open the show because bulls and base coverage. He can't run the exotic pressure.

It's going to be funny because this is going to be the same point. I'll bring it on the other side. But it's keeping them less exotic and more predictable. You're going to see three coverages basically. Now that Holmes doesn't need much to diagnose what coverage he's getting. So I think sale routes are going to be important because sale is a natural cover three beter. And I think if the chiefs are going to be a base personnel, they'll run that concept to Kelsey or somebody else on the inside. When they put Hill and Kelsey on the same side, it works perfectly off each other.

Correct, because there's so much heat. Because Hill pulls out the corner and then Kelsey comes right back behind it. No corner is falling off on Tiger Hill. You fall off your dead. That's where his gravity comes into play. So that's out of the base personnel. But then I also think when they're in sub personnel and 11 personnel, that's where you get the 1 by 3 stuff. That's where you might see the Bucks defensive game plan might lean more towards man and 2 man.

We're going to talk about that later. But I think when they're in subpersonnel and 11 personnel getting that, that's where you see the 1x defensive. by three with Kelsey as a lone receiver. And that's where you might see a little bit of, you know, wasp. Wossp might show up again in this game because that is a two-man beater. And that, you know, if they could take the safety out, you could just hit it just like in the last year's Super Bowl. So I think a sail route's going to be hit a couple times in this game.

You know, what is interesting is, is that play, I mentioned the two-man, but that one other play, the third medium. And I really want to see this when the chiefs have the ball, because this only happened in the second half. It's usually half time defenses make adjustments or both sides make adjustments. Good coaches make better ones. And they learn to kind of narrow down their game plan, tweak something they might have in their calls that they maybe not thought they're going to run that week. And in the third quarter, it was interesting because the Bucks ran this like double coverage on Hill and Kelsey where both safeties were cheating over and to help them out.

We're going to get to that in a second. I know. And I think it only happened once because that was the only normal third medium and long. that happened in the second half. Like, you know, the fourth quarter turns into a whole different thing, comeback mode and all that. And there's a bunch of third and extra longs. So I am curious if that shows up more because I was like, I was very, like that play

happened. I was like, oh, okay. Like that's new. It's the one double coverage like the Patriots were on, but they did zero double. They have no deep safety.

And they're just going, okay, both of our safeties are helping out. It's, it's creating like a zero man concept without pressure. So I'm curious that that comes up again, when the chiefs have the ball because I think that's going to be a way. They're going to have to throw something in there that's going to change it up because

they can one by three formation you to death. Bucks try to run that kind of cover two, three safety look that college people will know as the, you know, Iowa state kind of thing, which is really the technical term for it is three double cloud. But really it plays like, it's such a weird looking coverage.

It's Tampa 2. It's Tampa 2 with a third safety already back there. I was going to ask you about it because it looks so strange. when you're watching teams run it. It's very odd. For people, it's, to describe it, you have three guys back instead of two, but they're all crammed into the middle of the field.

And so it's just very strange to look at. So your corners are playing the flats while you have three guys deep. It's an odd looking coverage. So I want to get to- It's curious to see, yeah. So the sale stuff against cover three, I thought this was so interesting. And when you look at some of the teams

that have played the chiefs relatively well, and I thought the saints were the perfect example of this. the Saints did such a great job of getting depth underneath those routes where they're trying to come back underneath after Hill clears out or speed clears out. That needs to be a huge part of this game. I think they need to weaponize Levanti David and not, excuse me, weaponize Devin White. I don't want to see him sitting there processing in the middle of the field because you're wasting you're wasting him. You need to have him booking it to places. Fine ball, get ball. That's exactly right. That's what he is.

He needs to be chasing space in this game. Yep. Because otherwise you're wasting him. He's valuable as a blitzer, obviously. But we've already talked about the risk you run a few blitz. So he needs to be turning and running underneath stuff to take away plays like that. The three by one stuff with Kelsey is really interesting because, again, going back to the Saints game, they did. Because what happens is on the single side where Kelsey is the single receiver, you're manned up on him essentially.

And I think bracketing him with that. other safety that side is smart. But also the backside safeties, because what they like to do is they'll bring Hill on a crossers behind that when Kelsey's on that three by one because Hill and the slot is so dangerous in those moments. And I think that backside safety, whether he's bracketing Kelsey in man coverage or trying to cut those crossers coming in, that's going to be a hugely important player in this game.

I assume it's going to be Antoine Winfield a lot in those spots on that left side. That is going to matter so, so much how he diagnoses. and how fast he plays against some of those. And then the last thing I want to say about this, I think the two-man and that what you said about that coverage where they're doubling is correct. Because like we talked about, if you're playing just deep and you're saying,

I have depth as my two deep safeties and two-man, I'm safe now. That's where you're going to get yourself in a really bad way against this Tina. Because they're going to just play with that idea. And I think that wrench of that weird coverage where they're essentially just in two doubles in man coverage where you're doubling Kelsey and doubling Hill, I want to see them try to get to that in as many ways possible. Have it be a different guy doubling sometimes.

Switch it up. Do just little tiny wrinkles. But that idea that we're playing man underneath and we're doubling those two guys, I think that has to be the foundation of what they do. Because go ahead. Oh, no. I was completely agreeing with you. It's in theory when you're running that two man, you're saying, okay, we got natural double teams on everybody without doing anything special.

But you're just what you're also doing with the two man stuff. And I completely agree with your point. I think it's they can't live in the two man, but they can I think that's what they major in. Like if that makes sense. It's just what they're going to emphasize, but they have to change up the looks. It's suicide to go against Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes and try to run the same thing over and over. But I think with running the two man, you're daring. hey Patrick Mahomes are you going to try and scramble every single time and you take you take your licks you take a couple first downs where he scrambles for it but he's going to get bored I think Mahomes doesn't want to do the scrambling stuff he wants I mean he wants to run around an ad lib but I mean down the field actually running for first down he'll do it but he'd much rather just shred you and I think that's what they're going to bet they're going to go he's going to get bored and not and if we run two man enough he's going to just keep trying and he's not going to want to keep running down the field but Patrick Mahomes is also a genius that does this stuff that backside safety stuff is so

Important to note because last year in the 49ers game in the Super Bowl, even leading up to it, what the 49ers like to do and the Chargers like to do, this is why I'm thinking of it because as opposed to this game where we had the Chargers who play the Chiefs very well, by the way. They typically give Mahomes more problems than a lot of other teams do. Correct. It's funny because this year we had Week 12 to watch. And with the matchup last year, it was like everyone watched that Chargers game because it was like, oh, this is the same type of defense so we can see the matchup stuff. what they do it is for more of it they start with too high but they rotate from single high they'll rotate the safety away from the trip side because they can get that backside safety to help on the overouts and stuff what the bucks were doing it was almost a quarters look and a quarters against a three by one look or one by three as I call it but a three by one look when number three goes vertical that safety pushes over to cover him if in a cover four look because to cover it up otherwise you a team can run fourverts against you and you have no way to cover it. It's one-on-one. It's man coverage. Correct. And when that safety pushes over, and then you have Kelsey on digs on the back side,

just going to a vacated space against a corner playing outside leverage. That was the counter that the chiefs threw at that, which was pretty interesting. But teams still try and run it. And it's just one of those things. I'm curious that they keep trying to run it and saying, yeah, we're going to let Kelsey get those yards. There's no good answer against the chief's offense. Like they have an answer. Quirters essentially plays out like man underneath.

They'll line up Kelsey on a linebacker. Man, you'll end up getting torched. Mahomes shreds pressure. Spot drop cover three is they have so many easy answers for. Cover two. Also, late rotations.

The late rotations because they tried to rotate into cover two into a too deep look in the first game. And then Beholmes hit that whole shot down the left side. It's just like, as soon as I saw that, I was like, well, cross that one off. Oh, that was my exact reaction. Two inches and he hits a whole shot.

That's the stupidest throw. That one blew my brain. And I couldn't believe I didn't remember that throw. He hits it. Yeah, like you said, they tried to hold it. And so the safety is sprinting over trying to cover it. Which is a really smart thing against a lot of quarterbacks.

You're making him think post-snap. It's every time I watch the Chiefs, I think of Steve Bouchemy and Billy Madison just crossing off names with the lipstick. It's like every single time you have a defensive plan and think of work, it's like, well, I'm going to cross that one off and cross that one off. That's exactly it. The last thing I want to say about the two-man stuff and that idea and the press and the amount of press the bucks have played over the last couple weeks, it was so obvious in the first game.

how much the free releases and the freedom of movement benefited the chiefs. And I think that was the thing that jumped out to me most about the Saints game plan. Not only were they playing a lot of two men, because that's what the Saints majoring. That is their comfortable coverage, and it works against this team more than others seem to. But beyond that, they're chipping Kelsey and Hill with guys all the time. They're lining Cam Jordan up outside of Kelsey on third down and making sure he gets a shot on him before he gets out. They're riding DeMario Davis outside of the box and having him ship Hill while they're doubling him. I think that's the way that you have to be smart in this game.

You have to say, how can I use my bodies in ways that I don't typically? And how do I allocate them in unconventional ways? When you're moving to Mario Davis out over Hill in that play, you're taking him out of the box. If the chiefs want to run against that look, they can. Let them. Let them. I want to make sure that I'm doing everything I can to make those guys. as uncomfortable, even if it's putting me in vulnerable positions in traditional ways.

I don't think you can think traditionally when you're playing against them or you're going to be screwed. All right. It's the Jordan rules. That's what it is. That's what it is. It's the Jordan rules. It's the Kelsey rules and the Hiller rules.

That's what you do. You got to muck it up. You got to play dirty on them. It's it. That's a speed team. How do you beat speed teams? Muck it up. You make them not want to be out there anymore.

Tail is old as time. And I know that's easier setting down against the chiefs. But that is, tails all those time. That's what you do. You have to muck it up. But if you can make Tyree Kill think for one half a second as he's coming off the line,

where are they coming from? Where's my rip shot coming? That's exactly right. You win. And that's the type of stuff they have to be thinking about. And I also, the last thing we need to hit,

obviously, and we'll get to this and how you build the upset for this team. The front four is going to have to win this game. Yeah. I mean, just long and the short of it, they're going to have to win this game. And I think what you said about the games

is exactly right. Because if you can't create edginess with extra bodies. You have to create it with stunts. And what they did against the Packers, I think is such a great blueprint because they didn't blitz very often against the Packers.

They did more than they will against this Chiefs team, I think. But they lived with a four-man rush. They did it on 33 of Rogers is I think 548 dropbacks. And they got pressure up 33% of the time. All five sacks were with a four-man rush. And if you look at some of those plays,

you have a game on one side, you got one guy coming screaming off the other edge. So you're allowing your talent, want to win out in those one-on-one matchups. You're letting Shaq Barrett work against Andrew Wiley, who's never played right tackle in a big game before. And then you're having JPP and Vea with the stunt on the other side. You're getting the best of both worlds.

You're allowing the pocket to be crushed one way as you're winning with speed the other way. And I just think that is what's going to have to happen. But we'll get to that as we're building the upset here in a second. But you're creating a fool's goal, too, for the quarterback because they think, oh, that's a scramble lane. And it all of a sudden here comes JPP looping around. or Veil, looping around. We saw it with Russell Wilson and the Rams. Same, same exact concept. No, it's, it's great. Especially if you're playing two men because he's going to be looking to escape. And that's what you need to be doing. If he has on his mind, I have room and you take that room away, that's how you're going to get some of the splash plays you need to in this game. The really good old lines are aware of coverages, like that they're taught to read coverages. The best centers in the league will read the safety just like a quarterback does, and that's how they point. And same thing, they'll see too high and they'll be a,

like games, games, games, you know, they'll be alert in the other O line. Hey, it's too high here. They have to create some edginess. All right, so be alert for games, you know. So that's, that's, it's just such a telling point. But that's also how you take advantage of a banged up a line is pressure in games. So if you can't pressure, well, here come the games. There it comes.

All right. Let's get to the buck when the bucks have the ball. What is the number one thing you're looking for when the bucks have the ball in this game? It's funny. I can continue the same point I had a little bit is that I think the chiefs, like just like they staying in 12 personnel to keep the bucks basic. I think the bucks can follow the same kind of blueprint. 100%.

Much like we said about the Packers, same line of thinking. When the Bucks played the Packers, I should say, same line of thinking. When you're in the heavier personnel, you can keep the looks a little more basic. They can't get to these exotic,

fun looks that the Chiefs are going to want to do. And you know, you can keep more in base personnel. Keep the linebackers on the field, which is the Chief's weak point of their defense. Keep them off the field. And, you know, as opposed to If they want to play dime, you pound the rock.

There's a couple clips where the bucks were running duo against a dime personnel, and Ali Marpich is throwing swords out of the way. Like that's what that's the downside of playing a light box, not just, you know, numbers wise, but how big the guys are. And I think with that, it's, you know, they're getting the linebeck's play dime. The team that took it to the chiefs the most. And I mean, I got to bring up the stat. Like in the game, this is, this is some, speaking of both sides of my mouth here,

the games that Patrick Mahomes has lost as a pro, they've, the chiefs have averaged 31 point three points a game, which is, you know, a 500 point season. You know, that's 500.8 points if you go over a 16 game season. You know who scored 501 points a season? The Bills. So even in games that Patrick Mahomes has lost, he's played as good as they played as good as the bill's offense over his career. It's incredible.

It's an amazing. Insane. But with, with, but the team that gave him issues this year was the Raiders offense. And what the Raiders offense do best is throwing shot plays and big passing plays out of base personnel, heavy personnel. Not so much, they do 21 more, but 12, 21, 13, 22 personnel, keeping the chiefs basic and hitting and gashing them from that formation. I think that's what the bucks should be trying to do. I think they will do that.

But, you know, their advantages that they have, not only is Mike Evans a great player and Tony Brown's good is, you know, the tight ends. You're not going to mention my guy that I just wrote all those words about today? I was just about to. I was saying where the advantages have is gronk. Cameron Brate and Chris Godwin on the inside. That is a hard trio to be guarding rep after rep, rep after rep, especially if your weakness is your linebacker position. So I just think we're going to see maybe a lot of these PAs are the postover combos.

And we're going to see some overrouts going to Gronk. We're going to see some overrouts to Godwin. The Bucks love this one play action. They've been running it since the Cardinals. Thank God, by the way, I was bored this summer. And I watched the 2015 Cardinals that we joked about. I'm taking credit for that, by the way, because often I talk about the 2015 Cardinals.

It was in my head for four years and I finally had time to watch them and I did. So, you know, I will give you credit for that. But it's, I, one of the play actions that Ariens loves is they will go off a dual look where they'll have the receiver or a tight end do this. It would be a slot formation or a two by two formation. They run the dual look. They have the guy that's, if it's a slot formation, it would be a tight end, kind of have like a route to capture the backside and then they'll run a deep over route over the top

of that and then a backside dick and it's a classic play action concept but it's a shot concept look for that because I think when they're they're they're going to trying I think they're it's going to be a gash or be gash game for the bucks offense I totally agree they're going to block it up and they're going to just try and hit some shots on them it's going to be exciting I'm excited like that that's that's going to be fun but we might see a lot of big plays going either way I guess but that's that's that's just the bucks offense period what do you think about more like more max protect looks with three guys out in routes because I think my biggest thing is what answers do you have against pressure and beyond I think some deeper hot options

in order to not be throwing the ball underneath and gash them when they bring pressure. I think one of the ways to gash them is bring gronk back in, be running some three man stuff in order to make them pay for sending those extra bodies because you have the bodies to handle them. It seems a little bit counterintuitive because you're taking guys off the field in terms of options, receiving options. But I just think that gives them a chance to hold up and get those shots down the field to make them pay for bringing extra bodies at the quarterback. Yeah, the best way to beat a pressure team, especially cover zero team, is either he throw hot.

And but defenses have countered that now in the past five, seven years. And really the other counter is to gash him is to wad it up, hold. And then you get that four second throw because also in a DB blitz and who thinks he's going to have a free shot has a left tackle coming on them. They're like, oh, screw that. I am rushing. And also the quarterback has plenty of time and it's three one-on-ones going. Like you said, you got three studs. That's where you might see 9-89 come in, which is two goes on the outside and then, you know, the post-read on the inside.

And like you said, so this is going to be like a two-pointer here is bringing Gronk back into protection. This is the, what I'm so excited for with this game is this is almost like points two, three, and four for me is I'm curious to see what game playing these stuff Spags has. because he is one of the best game plan coaches. We have talked, and I'm also curious to see what the chess match between the Ariens left which Brady triumvirate, like, comes up with. Because I said earlier that Brady got more, they got more comfortable with having some of Brady's influences with this offense.

Not only just like a QB sneak and progression reads, or not progression reads, cross field progression reads. The other thing is the thing like you say, bringing Gronk back into protection because this is just encapsulates what's going to be so fun with this game. Spaggs is one of those coaches. He has an empty check and he brings a pressure of the week against empty. And the other philosophies, you can drop eight or recover two and, you know, convolut all

the throwing lanes because they have to throw hot or whatever. Spaggs is going to bring pressure. What was different about him as opposed to just having one that he runs the whole season or two, he runs the whole season, he changes up based on the opponent, which is really good. Which is difficult because the bucks, you understanding of your hot rules and how to go against it has to change too. So you're always one step behind when he's throwing all this new shit at you.

Yeah, when you're putting in a protection plan, you look at the looks, the pressure looks that you've gotten. The offensive line coach and the assistant offensive line coach are going to look at stuff. They're going to get with the coordinator. They're going to go over it with the center and the quarterback and go, okay, when they bring this luck, we're in three by one. What's our rules?

Oh, wrong. Okay. We're in empty. We're in this protection. What are our rules? Everyone's the same. Oh, you want to say that? Okay.

Well, this is where, so Spags is going to bring his pressure as week. And this, you already brought it up. but the empty pressure of week 12 was bringing the dime whale and the mic to the weak side to the to the boundary and getting Brady to throw hot. They did it the first time off of it Brady brings gronk back in protection and they run a slide. The old line's able to slide to the to the boundary so they were able to wad everything up and this speaks to how awesome gronk is. He just kicks sets and pass sets like a right tackle just wadding up the d.N like like it was nothing. Okay, so that's what happens. Ball gets incomplete.

both teams come off the field. They're on the Microsoft surface tablets. Next time they go in empty. I think the bucks actually started the next drive and empty. Chiefs were running the same exact pressure look. But this time, they stand up the D-N and they bring Gronk back in. They stand up the D-N, the Chiefs do, and they drop him into coverage as opposed to, as opposed to blitzing him. Because what they're saying is, oh, you want to bring Grog back into block?

Well, we're going to waste him. We're going to waste him. So they hit the little sticker out. I think the camera braid on this one. Next time they go into empty, this is why football is freaking awesome, by the way. This is the chess match. When people talk about everyone always goes, oh, the chess match. And then they never bring up what the chess match is.

They just say something smart someone did. They'll say like a checkdown as a chess match. This is the chess match. The next time they go into empty. Bucks are in empty. Chiefs run the same exact pressure. Cronk comes back inside. They drop the D.N.

But what the Brady and the Bucks did, the triumvirate of Ariens left which are Brady, this is what they did. They sent Gronk down the pipe against a dropping D.N. and hit a 25-yard gain. And on all that, it's just a ridiculous throw, by the way. Just a stupid throw. Unbelievable throw. It's unbelievable throw. I know.

I know. That's the difference between these guys and everybody else is they can, willing to do that and able to do that. And so why I want to talk about this, one that was only the spags. That's the spags pressure of the week. So I'm curious what his pressures are going to be this time around. This is also what Brady's comfort in the buck's offense. This is after the buy week. this is a arians is very much a run my shit I call a play there's no kills on it might be

sometimes on a run game they'll have kills but there's no run to pass kills there's no pass to pass kills it is we call this play it has answers find the open route deal with it the fact that brady has the ability to bring gronk back into protection showed me that they were like okay brady you get to do what you want there's more flexibility and autonomy for him i have never seen that in arian's offense and so it's that already I mean, we've seen Brady do that for years and years and years and years and years. I mean, he's done it with receivers. Like, he would bring Welker back in and they would run like a full slide with Welker trying to wad

up the end. And so that is something that I've just seen, you know, that is the influence that Brady has had on this offense. And the fact that they're comfortable doing that and that they say they can do that. And that was before the buy week. There's going to be even more tweaks. So I really want to see the bucks love being an empty. Brady likes being an empty.

So I'm curious what Spags is. and then what the Bucks counter is or what their answer or what their plays are out of empty this time around because that was a fun sequence and that was the stuff that I just love. That is the chess match

between these coaches and players that happens in the game and this is in the game and this is even before halftime this was all just in the first half. It's just great stuff. All right, let's do it. Let's build the Bucks upset

and I think this is very quick. We talked about all the elements to it. It's a three part, three prongs kind of approach to me. Gashes on early downs out of big personnel down the field and make them pay in these pressure looks. Two, dominate with your front four. Just destroy this game with your front four in the same way that you did against the Packers.

And to help do that, marry aggressive coverage on the back end that makes Mahomes hold the ball for one second. Don't let him throw the ball instantly against some of these zone looks. and I think the way that you marry that pressure up front with that aggressiveness on the back end is by playing a lot of those aggressive man looks that we haven't seen from them. Don't let what happened to you and man the last time you played this team scare you off of that approach in this game. Because if you play more too high looks and you play some more of those double looks that we saw intermittently, but we saw have seen a lot of in their past two games, I think even if it's scary, even if you feel like you're walking a tight rope and you're just walking out there

without any sort of safety net, I still think you have to live dangerously in order to put yourself in the best position to slow this team down. So that's it. That to me is what we need to see from them to win this game. Yeah. The bills,

what Bill's did in week six and what the Chiefs did in the divisional, or Browns did in the divisional round against the Chiefs, I was fine with it. You know, playing safe and making them work for it and matriculate down the field. And I think that's going to be, the Bucks version of that.

It's not so much, you know, two high quarters and everything like that. It's going to be that version of two men. They have to get lucky. They have to create a turnover where Mahomes is throwing across his body over the field, over to 6, 7 Nelson, as opposed to the ball, just going right to Hardman's chest, 20 yards down the field. It gets dropped. A tip ball happens, you know, a couple holding penalties.

That's the thing. Even in this last game, there were holding penalties and stuff like this. And it still didn't matter. But it's, it's, that's what they're. they need and they need to force field goes they need that you know the chief's offense as amazing as it is they're only 14th in the league and TD percentage in the red zone this season I know red zone offense could be very volatile but you know comparison the packers were 80%. You limit their you limit their effectiveness when the field shrinks that they don't have

the same advantages when the field starts to shrink what it's literally a field stretcher is what we call speed guys so when the field gets a little more tight it's you know can't stretch as much but it also speaks that percentage that 60%, 61% Red Zone percentage also speaks to how frigging explosive they are, that they're one of the top offenses without even performing with touchdowns and Reds down. It should be impossible to do that. It is. But that's them. And I think the Bucks offense, they, like we said, they have to block up the Spags pressures and go bombs away. And I think they take their wicks and I'm sure they'll get a couple

sacks in there. But, you know, their run game has to show up. They can't just get three-yard gains. Leonard Frenet can't be tripping. He can't be dropping. He can't be dropping. the ball. He had three drops, I think, against the backers last week. And even with the amazing touchdown run he had, he can't, you can't give up those chances against this. Like this, this Chief's offense, it's the 31.3 points. You need to score at least 32 points, basically. That is, that's what you're going for. That's the

number you're shooting for. You need to steal three possessions and score four touchdowns. Have to. Have to. Have to. You have to have one, you have to get one or two, three and outs. You have to get a turnover and you have to hold them a field goal. that's what it is. You need to play the way the Saints played them with a better quarterback, better offense. Yes, the more explosive offense. Yes, that's what you have to do.

You, the, the, the, the duo run against dime was like something, I was like, okay, there's, there's an avenue there in the run game, at least. As far as the passing game, it's just they got wotted up and they got, they can't be throwing hot. I think they're going to be fine. I think the Bucks offense is going to score points. It's just whether they have to. to just be perfect, though. That's what this Chiefs offense makes you do.

I still think it's possible. But, you know, Mahomes, that's the thing, is even if the bucks are in the game and say they're running the ball and it's tied up or they're up three or something like that, down three. Mahomes has a QBR of 93.7 after the third quarter this year. Okay. So, all right. Yeah, well, we got them right where we want them.

You know, like, let's go give it to 15. So that's, but that's what you can do. It's football, though. It's any given Sunday. That's what's amazing about football. It's truly, especially in NFL, as anyone can win, and especially in the Super Bowl. Tom Brady led one of the greatest upsets ever, his first Super Bowl win. So, you know, it's not that.

They're only plus three, I think, at this point. But it's, it's, they have to play a lot of perfect football to, to pull this game out. I thought it a few different times while I was rewatching these games, just going back and even watching the Saints game where they struggled a tiny bit, watching the first Bucks game, going back and I watched the Falcons game too. just to see if there was anything. The Falcons game was so weird. Falcons are throwing so much weird shit at them.

I don't think you can take anything from that game and be like, that's replicable. It was the wonkiest stuff. Kitchen sink game. Yeah, it was incredibly like, hey, I've been wanting to run this since I was in two, like, since I was in college. We have two defensive linemen, and it's just so much weird shit. Which is fun. They got film on it now.

So the rest of those coaches career, they're like, hey, we ran those pressure one time. Check it out. And the takeaway that I had while rewatching those games is that that is the best football player I've ever seen. Just the stuff that happens and the balls off platform and the choices that he's making and it happens every time I watch him. I just sit. And when I really sit back and watch them, I just am struck every time by the idea that

that is the best football player I've ever seen in my entire life. And it really has, it makes you rethink the way you think about this kind of stuff. Because with almost every single guy, even Rogers to a certain degree, You have these blueprints in your mind and you think if we follow this to a T, we can win. And with him, it's just not like that. It doesn't matter if you do it right sometimes. It doesn't matter if you do everything right sometimes. The way he riffs on the idea of the position and the idea of these rules and the structures of the sport is unlike anything anyone else has ever done.

And that's why you just can't think in conventional ways about what's going to stop him or what's stopping him even consistent. of because it's not a 17-14 win against an undefeated Patriots team. It's not going to happen. It's just impossible. So those ideas and those versions of this game, you know, I used to play, I used to do something at the ringer where I would write about the four or five ways that the Super Bowl could play out. With Mahomes, you take three of those away. There's just, there aren't five ways the game can play out because he just eliminates so many different times. lines because he's in the game. And I think considering him and considering what he means when you're kind of thinking

about that stuff is fascinating. And it really does make you think about and rethink what is possible on a football field. And that's why I think no matter what sort of game plan the Bucks have, no matter how well they play, no matter how well they unleash and employ all of the talent that they have. And it is considerable. He's still going to find a way. Yeah, it's, I, even this week, it's like, I've watched this game before. And it was like, posted about it because we all, Mahomes is just so even his misses are just incredible.

And it's like he's still doing the thing like that whole shot like the, the one we talk about. It's like, how do I not remember that play? And that's like an all time. Like, it's one of my favorite play throws a year. It'd be the best throw that ever, it'd be the best throw that 80% of quarterbacks ever making their entire life. And we forget about it. I forgot about it. And I know.

And that's, it's, that's the things he's doing. And we talked about it and you asked me, like, is he's the best you've seen. And right away, my snap answer was yes. And of course, like after I joke about it with you sometimes is after every podcast, I stare at the ceiling while I laying in bed and kind of go, why did I say that? Oh, that was, that was stupid. But then I answered that question and I had no regret answering it that way because it was just, I ran through my head and I'm like, he's something else.

He is just this, just this supernova. And it's so much fun. It's like he's, he's, it's good for football because there is, it's so. much it's more fun watching this version of it where it's he can do the wild wild stallion plays he can do the in control place he can scramble he's got mental IQ that's off the charts because like he is they're the insane play he's thrown across his body which is another insane throw he's working left away from the pressure because that's where he knows the pressure and the bucks disguised it and he knew it was coming it's like he's on a whole other plane it's not like you know Vic was a supernova in the sense that he was we've never

seen an athlete like that you know we've never seen like even dante colpepper was crazy because just the body size but the the top tier guys is the Peyton manning's and the Tom Brady's and of the world, the Drew Breezes, those are all like, you know, it's clinical. I think that's more the way to describe it. It's clinical. It's like, okay, they're going to just get us over time. Over time, it's a war of attrition with them just knifing throws left and right. Mahomes just does it so much quicker that it's like, it's like alarming sometimes.

You just like this game, they're up. They jumped out to the lead in the first quarter, just shredding them. And it's just like, if I played against that, that's that's hard. That's hard to just really go like, okay, guys. All right, get back out there. That game plan that we put together. Here we go. You got to trust the game plan.

He just, it's the Tiger Woods effect. Do you ever read that study about when Tiger Woods would start a tournament? He already naturally had a one stroke lead over everybody. Yes. And that's what it feels like. That's what it is. They have a seven point lead. You talk about edginess.

They're already edgy just because he's over there. And the last thing I want to say before we go, he would be the first quarterback to really win two in a row. in my life, in the modern era, because the Patriots did it. But that 03 Patriots team was 12th in the league in scoring, Brady average 6.9 yards per attempt that season. Yeah. Like they won two in a row.

He didn't win two in a row. A quarterback-centric approach on a team and a sense of greatness built so singularly around one pillar of a player, that has not happened because it's immensely difficult. And that's what I'm saying. he has made us rethink what is possible. And I think that Sunday will be another example of that. All right, bud, that's all we got. We'll be back on Sunday night to break this game down.

And I cannot wait to do that. Guys, thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for listening all year. I can't believe we're here. I can't believe we're on the eve of the Super Bowl, essentially. Thank you so much to Carson Palmer and to Ted for stopping by. It's a jam-pack show. You probably don't even have enough time before the game to listen to all the podcast that we did this week.

But if you do, please try. Also, please rate and review the show on your podcast platform of choice. You'd be doing me a big favor. I would sincerely appreciate it. Please subscribe to the athletic. The athletic.com slash football show. So 399 a month right now. I have the A1 story on The Athletic today.

It's the first time that they've given me that. I wrote a big profile of Chris Godwin. It's the first profile I've written in really years, just kind of talking. talking to people throughout a guy's life. And I will say this is what I tweeted this morning. I have never spoken to a group of people that talked about a player the way that people talk about Chris Godwin. Ryan Fitzpatrick said in 16 years and eight different stops, he is the most impressive

rookie he has ever seen in his entire career. And the guy, it just understated confidence is what Joe Morhead, his offensive coordinator at Penn State said. And Fitzpatrick said this too, which I thought was such a great point. When you have a guy who's an all pro receiver the way that Godwin was, he doesn't black anymore. And that is what makes Chris Godwin so special is that he's this all pro talent who was second in the NFL and receiving yards per game last season, who's inserting into the seed gap on run plays. He is a rare, rare guy. And I sincerely enjoyed writing about him. And I would

really appreciate it. If you guys, if you don't have a subscription to the athletic, would pick one up to check it out because I spent a lot of time on it and it was a fun story to work on. So please come back on Sunday. We'll be going live after the game. So be on the lookout at our social media accounts. We'll be tweeting out the links. We'll be going, I think, similar time frame to what we did during the championship games, everything else. Probably about 45 minutes or so after the game ends.

We'll be coming to you guys, breaking down everything Super Bowl-related. So thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to you guys later. This was the Athletic Football Show.