The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Coaches at a crossroads, a Falcons team visit and talking Trevor Lawrence with Jaguars OC Darrell Bevell

Episode Date: August 6, 2021

Robert Mays and Nate Tice discuss the coaches at a crossroads heading into the 2021 season. Some of which have a lot to prove, others face a pivotal moment in their career. Plus, The Athletic’s Falcons reporter Tori McElhaney joins the show to talk about the team’s transitional year, the major questions on defense and first-round pick Kyle Pitts. Finally, Jaguars’ OC Darrell Bevell sits down with Robert to discuss the plan for Trevor Lawrence, what he’s seen so far in training camp and more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. I actually don't even know when this one's being released,

but it's funny just coming back-to-back days with you. And then, like, also, I'm telling you, the background's changing. Now we got, we got the geometric. You got the new wave hotel you're staying at. It's just a little more trendier. It's kind of like the young, hip, uh, wing of the Marriott's, is where I am right now. It had a Peloton, so that's why I'm staying here.

Yeah. So I'm really trying to not be a piece of shit on this trip and work out and not eat terribly. Because if you're leaning into it as vacation, it can get very long. So I am in Charlotte now. I was at Falcons practice today. By today, I mean Wednesday. This is coming out on Friday. Time is a flat circle at this point.

So just to keep things on the rails, we were going to have a conversation. with our Falcons writer, Tori McElwaney today, talking about training camp, the outlook for that team, all that kind of stuff. We're also going to have a conversation with Darrell Bevel, the Jaguars offensive coordinator who I talked to earlier this week, about their plans for Trevor Lawrence, the outlines of their plans for Trevor Lawrence, what he learned from the Russell Wilson experience, how he got connected with Urban Meyer. Enjoy talking with Darrell. But before any of that, we are going to talk about some coaches today. That is going to be how we handle this show. We did some players with the most at stake with Lindsay earlier this week. I want to talk about some coaches with a lot at stake today.

I don't want to call it coaches on the hot seat because I don't like speculating on people's jobs. Like you've been fired as an NFL coach. Your dad's gotten fired as an NFL head coach. It sucks. These are people, these are real people. And when you get into the job and you start to have conversations with all these guys and you understand that they're real people, I really don't like speculating on that kind of stuff.

So I'm not going to say these guys have tenuous job security. I'm going to say that they're at a crossroads. These are guys at inflection points in their careers. And that's how we're going to frame it. And that's also going to lead us to some people that aren't in danger of losing jobs, but are facing some pivotal moments and some pivotal seasons. Yes. So why don't you start us off?

When we were starting this exercise and we were going to do this, who was the first name that came to mind for you? one of our podcast mascots is Cliff Kingsbury. And I shouldn't, like you said, that's what coaching is, yeah, these guys get paid a lot of money and they get a lot of clout with some of these titles. But it is a stressful job in the sense that you can't plan ahead for six months, especially if you're a coach that you don't know what your situation is going to be. You know, NFL, it's a joke, you know, not for long. I always say that, but it applies to so many different things. It applies to players, applies to coaches, applies to GMs, applies to the agents.

applies to trainers. Like it's just, it's such a competitive league that everyone's always going for your job. But the first name that came to my head is Cliff Kingsbury because seeing year two last year is that's where a lot more of my concerns became more concrete. As opposed to maybe that first year where it was kind of like, oh, you know, this isn't what I was expecting. Oh, that was cool. But, you know, the run game stuff was cool. You know, okay, they got some fun stuff how they run the office with Kyler.

But then year two is more of the same. And more of the same, I should say, in negative ways, the protection issues, which I've harped on a thousand times on this on this show. Just tying in, not the aggression going down field. Everything was dink and dunk. Good run game, but then also running a, you know, shit ton of screens to go along with it where it just seemed kind of like a hodgepodge of parts. Like that he was just truly throwing shit against the wall. Just running place. Run in place, run a ball place, which is great in week one in training camp.

Like, that's fun, but not every single week of the season. And some games turn into that where you're like, oh, my God, we got to try a whole bunch of stuff. Sometimes when you play the Patriots or something, you're like, hey, let's just try some shit. Let's try and vary it up. Let's create some overload formations. But sometimes you just, you have to have your plays. Like you say, like, we've talked about quarterback going and get you a bucket. Sometimes you need a scheme or a play call where you're like, hey, everybody knows what to do on this play.

Quarterback knows every possible read that a defense could throw at them. I'm like, it's a third and five with a game on the line or a fourth of five with a game on the line. that's a play we're going to call. With the Cardinals, what play is that? You can't close your eyes a picture what this offense is going to be. That's exactly what I was going to say. There's so many offenses where you can imagine it

and you know what they do well. I think identity is a word that's thrown around a little bit too much, but you want to be able to see it and you want to be able to articulate what they do well and what their identity is. At their core, what are they? Yeah, and you can't do that with this team. Yeah, we throw that term around,

but this is actually where. it applies. That's what's funny. It's kind of like we all have phrases we use, but this is actually when we're talking about this is our offensive identity, our philosophy. Like what is their philosophy? Is it ball plays? Like is it is a quick game? Is it is a great Kyler runs? And, you know, what was Kenyon Drake and everything? Was it doing that? Like, what is it? And so that's where like we say, it's a crossroads. And now it's like more like he has already passed the stop sign. Like he's already going down the path. And so it's like whether he can control what he's going down because he's already had two seasons of this. So once it's a huge transition to this off season.

And again, Rodney Hudson's going to help. I keep harping on having a good legit center that might talk some things and maybe modernize some of the stuff they're running protection-wise. But that's also on the coach to listen to those players. So that's what it's a huge question mark on what he's at right now and what he's been doing. Let's talk about some of the veteran additions, not only what they could bring, but what they mean. Obviously, when you're making those sorts of veteran edition moves, that's what winning now that we want to bring this in for immediate contribution guys like j j wott guys like

rodney hudson guys like a j green who apparently has looked better than he looked last season but it would have been impossible for him to look worse so i honestly i mean that's and rondell more is an interesting piece right like so the additions they made make sense i've heard that some of those additions were not only made for win now purposes but for again culture is a stupid word but stabilizing forces within that locker room. Hudson on offense, Wad on defense, adults,

bringing in guys that can help teach a young team how to practice, can help instill something in a young roster that a young coach might not have been able to so far. I'm really treading carefully around this. But that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. And maybe that's part of it. And maybe that's part of the issues that they've had so far as they didn't have forces like that on either side of the ball.

And we'll see what happens. But when you make moves like that, right? You got a win. When you make win now moves, you got a win. That applies to the coach. It applies to the GM. So a couple numbers I wanted to throw at you that I found very interesting that kind of speak to what you've mentioned.

Last season, Kyler Murray had 77.3 total EPA as a thrower. That number doesn't mean anything without a lot of context. that ranked 20th in the NFL, 20th. Here are some of the guys he was behind. Oh, no. Gardner Minshew, Teddy Bridgewater, and Joe Burrow, who played 10 games.

He was one spot ahead of Jared Gough, two spots ahead of Dak Prescott, who played five games. This is not a rate stat. This is a total stat. That's as a passer, purely as a passer. He was comfortably, he had comfortably the most EPA generated as a scrambler in the entire NFL. When you say, what is our offensive identity?

It's Kyler makes something happen at this point. It's a huge part of what they've done. And even in the running game, it can be like that. They were 26th in EPA per rush last year. They were 21st in success rate. This offense is so scattered. There's no consistency to what they do. It's never smooth.

It's always herky jerky. It's hard. And you can just feel it's always hard. They're really squeezing blood out of the stone here. And I just needed to look easier because the entire point of him getting there was for it to look easier. It was for that quarterback to be comfortable right away and for that offense to be what drove that.

This team hovered around 500 last year because their defense played out of its mind. It played so much better than any of us could have imagined. I think their defense could be okay this year because they have some talent in the front, obviously with Jones and Watt, but I don't know if they're going to be able to play the same style they played last year where they're really putting a lot on those corners and man coverage and all that other stuff. It seems like this could go sideways. It just does.

I mean, it is more tenuous than it might. seem from the outside because this was a 500 team last year. But I don't think, I think the records from his first year to his second year and the fact that they improved is a little bit misleading because I don't think the ways that they've improved indicate that there's more progress to be made on the offensive side of the ball or the progress is coming. Yeah. It's not the disco stew meme where it's like, you know, disco going upwards, like where he's just

like, yeah, this is how it's going to generate. It's not going up straight up that way. And I loved your first point, too, talking about having JJ there and Roddy there, Roddy and JJ Watt there is that having vets that are actually tangible players, not the 37-year-old Jason Witten or, you know, the last year vet that's on a Tori Holt with the Jaguars where you barely even remember that where they're there for that last season, more a guy that's an actual tangible player, even if they're not maybe in that all-pro stage. Ronnie still is, but JJ might be a half tier below that.

He still a good awesome player. But guys respect that. Players respect that. A coach, they can talk to the coach, and I'm not trying to not cliff. too much right here, but, you know, he didn't have a lot of time in the NFL. He was mostly a college guy. He played for a couple years as a practice squad, third string, type of quarterback, but then that was really his NFL experience.

And, you know, and there's some to it. I don't want to wait it too much, but there is, you know, knowing how the NFL works really kind of does matter. And some guys pick it up right away and like, like that. And some guys are just like always just kind of feel like they're in the deep end. But having those vets that players also can just look to and those guys going like, hey, this is how you practiced. Because I know how Rodsey and JJR.

I've coach Rodney. you know, not directly, but I was on the Raider's staff and I played with JJ at Wisconsin. I know how those guys work. I mean, those guys are, those guys are top 0.000,000, 0.001% workers. So it's like having those guys day in, day out, showing everything to go. And guys are going to respect that. And as far as just like, as far as what, how his scheme is looked and everything and it's Kyle go do something funny, you know, it's that's what originally it was okay.

And it was like, hey, we're going to let Kyle are you're starting a rookie. day one, okay, let's make it easy for him. And that's we're talking about that lack of progression and not just in the plays, but just also just what the plays look like. And ISO ball with DeAndre Hopkins. Okay, that's fine for two weeks. But then moving on, putting out, I want to tie this in is the defense too, stepping up in the second half of the year is now it's on tape.

Teams have a whole off season to study it. And I don't want to understate that enough because that's what happens is you can put awesome plays and you can kind of bum rush guys that first month or maybe after the buy week when you kind of. adjust some things and it's like the Andy reading September stuff where it's like oh my god like look at this scheme look at this play look at this play same thing can happen for defenses or offenses after a bye week and that's what the cardinals did but that thing is now now it's on tape so now it's teams who look at it now they're going to have more reps at they're not going to surprise any with these

new looks or different looks on third down um not knocking it because it was pretty it was pretty awesome stuff but like you said maybe there's not as much growth there as you would think or maybe sustainability as you would think originally when you first like glance at and see how they did. So like you said, it's just a, it's just a strange team. It's all scattershot. They don't create a ton of explosives. Um, they just like, I don't know, they make it all look hard. It looks like the Eagles offense the last couple of years. Sometimes it looks like the Bears offense the last couple years. Everything, every play just looks. Yeah, every play just looks. Sometimes they hit a great play and you're like, wow, maybe they got it. And then it's like the next series. It's like three and out. And every

play looks just muddled. And that, that's frustrating. It can be frustrating to watch. And that's why I I think they just could get there. They just, I don't know if this is the path for it. All right. Let's stick with coaches in the Sean McVeigh mold who were hired two years ago in order to be a new team's version of Sean McVeigh. Nice. I'm going with Zach Taylor. Yeah.

Because obviously they have not won a lot of games there over the last two years. But I think it goes beyond that, right? They have spent a decent amount of money, especially by their standards. Yeah. Over the last two off seasons. You look at that defense, it's all free agents, right? Trey Waynes, DJ Reeder, Trey Hendrickson, Mike Hilton, Von Bell. They're all rentals.

All of them. It's such a strange roster construction when you think about how homegrown this team has been over the last 10 years. When you draft like garbage, this is what has to happen. But at the same time, they tried to throw that defense in the microwave. And if it tastes like shit, people are going to lose jobs, right? I mean, that's where this is. They tried to get some quick fixes in there. And if it doesn't fix anything, you're left wondering what comes next.

So this is a huge year, in my opinion, for them. And it's a huge year for Borough. They went out and got Jamar Chase. I don't know who tweeted it out today, but so it was one of those, you know, who's better than this trio? And it was Tyler Boyd, Jamar Chase and T. Higgins. T. Higgins is like, I don't know, a lot of guys. Spin the wheel.

The bucks exist, right? I mean, there's a couple out there, Cowboys. So even if they're not at the top, top tier, they have added talent. And this, I feel like you have a grace period

when you're a young coach and when you're a coach picket first overall, right? Yeah. That happens. You have some time to figure all of this out. And he wasn't, I mean, this is his third year. So, I mean, they were back. in year one.

They were bad in year two. And let's see if they can be decent in year three. So far, the reviews from camp have not been glowing. Paul Dino, Jr. has been writing about the offense. That happens, right?

We try not to overreact to that kind of stuff. But I think the interest and the scrutiny and the microscope on that speaks to how much is at stake here and how this is a really, really big year for their franchise quarterback, for their head coach, and for what this team is. for the next several seasons. I really do believe that.

Yeah. And another, God, it's just so frustrating that it's just like you said. I think what you said too, it's like, okay, the reviews haven't been great for the first five, seven days of practice. But defense is always going to be head of the offense, yada, yada, yada. But that's the thing. It's not like this is a new system for, you know, for Burrow and Taylor. It's not like this is their first time calling plays together and working together. It's like you'd hope to maybe have a big step there.

You also want to hear you would, you'd, you'd, rather the reviews be saying, oh, man, they're doing some tempo stuff or, oh, man, they had a new package. Like, and not, oh, man, they're struggling to complete a ball past 10 yards. And that's what last year was, was he obviously watched. Well, when he got there to the Bengals from the Rams, Taylor, they thought, oh, he's going to be 11 personnel, bunch there and just copy what the Rams are doing. And it was like, kind of. Like, yeah, he did 11 personnel a lot. But then last year, it was obviously he watched a lot of LSU film because he was empty left and empty, like every other.

their play, try to just, and when you have to live in empty, you need a trigger man. You need a QB that is a quick thinker that also can make a play because if you're going to be an empty all the time, you're going to get your ass bullets off and either they're going to drop eight or they're going to blitz people. And if the QB is wrong, because if they're blitzing, you're one reading done, you have to get, you have to stand in there, take a hit or you got to go make a play. And luckily Burrow can do that, but it's hard to live in that world in the NFL level, especially if the old line isn't blocking how they should in a five-man protection.

Like, that's in a world. I'm just talking about my example going one read and done. That's if the O-line's getting everybody they should be getting, wadding stuff up in the middle and leaving a free rusher off the edge or something like that. I don't know if the O-Line could do it. So that is just terrifying that that's their answer. They're like, okay, we'll spread it out for Joe and let him read because he's so smart and just let him be a trigger man.

He's so accurate, let him get the ball out. But that's what, defense is going to sit on it or they're going to blitz your ass off because they know you can't protect it. So it's just robbing Peter would pay Paul. I mean, you're trying to figure out one answer and you're just creating all a litany of answers for other stuff. And that's what's scary is they got the quarterback hurt last year. I should say they. That's mean.

But Joe Burrow got hurt last year. And then that leaves it kind of scary. If that's what their answer was, the last year was it being empty a bunch with a rookie quarterback. It's like, hopefully hanging on your hat for this next year with Burrow. And yeah, I mean, it's scary. It's scary to see nice. The receivers are nice. They're fine.

I like Tyler Boyd. I like T. Higgins a lot. And I like Jammar Chase. I mean, they're fine. But it's just, I mean, there's a lot of holes there for the whole team. And it's just like there's nothing I've seen there where I'm like real, real excited

about what they do offensively. I think this is another example of, all right, what does 2.0 look like? Yeah. Because looking at what LSU did in 2019 and saying, let's do that. Let's do a lot of that makes sense. It's a conversation we're going to have with Darrell Bubble later in the show.

We asked him about that. How much do you look at what Clemson did and say, we need to fold some of that in? He said, you'd be stupid not to. Exactly. That's just, it's a good part of coaching. That's good coaching. But what do you do next? Yes.

And you look at some of the numbers last year and their inability to push the ball down the field, where are you going to find that? Because if you're living in empty and you're trusting your quarterback to get rid of the ball quickly, it's going to be a lot of like seven-yard completions. And that's fine. But how are you going to create throws down the field? Correct. You need to manufacture those because you're not going to be able to consistently string 10, 11, 12 play drives together in this league.

It's not going to happen anymore. It's hard. It's so hard to do. That's why explosive plays are so important. Everyone harps on them. I mean, that is why it's more and more, it's tilting more and more to be an explosive than efficient because it is hard. Not everyone's Drew Brees.

Not everyone can do that for 12 straight plays and make the exact right throw every single time. It is hard to do that. And putting it on a guy and then like you said, I love that how you're putting it. Okay, we saw the baseline version. What the quarterback be competent? What would be comfortable? Okay, what's next?

What's your answer next? and I haven't seen anything that makes me comfortable with what is next. I want to go back and watch what they were in games, like eight, nine and ten. He was playing pretty well against Washington before he got hurt. And it's just that's one of those things that when the tape comes back, it's something I want to go become more familiar with. All right. In the final, when the tape comes back, when the water gets turned back on and I can start watching this stuff again,

that's something I want to go watch because I'm curious. All right, what does it look like in week one? What does it look like in week 10? I would have loved to have watched it. that before we started this podcast. Unfortunately, it was not available to us. I had to rack my brain for some of this stuff. I was like, oh, man, I think that's what that guy, hoping I'd tweet about something like searching. Searching for water in the desert at this point. All right. Who's your next guy?

Okay. Next up, I have Mike McCarthy. And with, and it's your two. I'm tough on it, but he kind of got a free pass last year. That got hurt. Everybody shut their brains off. And I mean, I honestly, And they shut the Cowboys off. They did. I mean, everyone did. Everyone did. And that's the Cowboys, which is astounding.

But I think with Mike McCarthy still has a ton of proof. Those last few years in Green Bay weren't always great, especially offensively. And I know that whole franchise and everything, whatever you want to do. I mean, they're still successful. They still had a good offense. But it wasn't like it was some revolutionary thing that everyone was copying. It was more like everyone was at the end was it became a meme. It was slant flats.

Swat flat flat. Slat flat. And Roger's signaling, Roger signaling Y to the flat, which they still do, which is hilarious. But with McCarthy, it's just that he got the free pass last year. And he came in and that team was basically plug and play. I mean, that's, in theory, in theory, that's what they were hoping. He came in and they just hit the ground running with him. And that's what is now scary.

It's like he hasn't, those last few years in Green Bay didn't make me optimistic about what's going in for this year. So that's why it's like he's, I mean, this offense should be a 500 point. offense. I mean, I rarely say that. Well, not 17 games. So that's kind of warped. But, but, we're so screwed. I know a 520 point off. Every single point of reference no longer matters. And it's going to be really, really hard. Oh, a thousand yard rushers. Doesn't matter now. It's like 1100. That now we had. So it's just like my brain skewed. But still, that's what it's nothing. I and the offense was great. That's first few weeks with Dak last year. I mean, he was on a record break and pace. But that was also.

I have a question about that. Yeah. So I was trying to put together a list in my mind of why the offense won't be great, right? Just playing devil's advocate because you look at the talent. I think that there are a couple different reasons, right? There's some personnel reasons. The offensive line is getting older. I think they're more insulated from injury at tackle than they have been in years past with Niseki

and then the guy they drafted in the fourth round. It was a nightmare for the last few years. Terrence, Steele and all those guys that they had to trot out there when those injuries eventually have. It was really bad. I think they're in a better spot this year. And injuries is you always have to mention it. So I just let injuries aside. I think the personnel is very good.

There are two things that would worry me about their offense. One, too much Zeke if it's the same Zique that we saw last year. If those percentages are worth 52% run on first down and he's not the guy that we saw two or three years ago and he's the guy we saw in 2020, I think that could hold them back. The number one thing to me, and I'm curious if you agree with this. when we were doing the quarterback pot, and I went back and I watched those first four or five games before they turned the tape water off, and I was watching Dak.

I was a little bit disappointed in how static everything looked. Yeah. Do you agree with that? Because that is the other part of this, is that in our minds, we have these superstar offensive players, and I think Dak is that. We both agree that he is,

that permeate this offense. And we just just talked about CD Lamb on Wednesday show. but I don't think they're as dynamic in terms of the design and what the offense looks like as some of the other great offenses in the league. And I think that we could be expecting this explosion from them and then watching a bunch of static formations where they're an 11 personnel and no one's moving and there's a bunch of curls. And it's just like what is happening here?

Yes. And I thought that we would see this hyper modern just criss. crazy movement, not in like motion for motion's sake, but just stuff that was helping their players out more than what happened at the end of the Garrett era. And it just didn't look like that as much as I wanted it to at the beginning of last season when DAC was playing. And the talent eventually overrides it and he's thrown for 500 yards a game. But that to me is what could hold this offense back and what could be an indictment of McCarthy. If you can't put this group in a position to be one of the best two or three offenses in the league, we need to

find somebody who can. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what that static offense. That's I completely agree with it. When and, and he's kind of brought a few ideas with McCarthy because he truly looks like it's his fingerprints are mostly on that offense. And but that is a Linahan offense. I mean, it is. And I know that because that's what I've says before, but that was my dad's office coordinator in Minnesota. So trust me, it's taught down to Granite Oakland. Like it's, it's a very familiar offense. The thing with a lot of those routes, and like you said, it's static. It's too. two by two stuff or it's split field reads and it's great it's almost like an offensive version of the seahawks defense from the last decade you know what you're getting but the players are so good that they make it work and then yeah it's like oh yeah no one's people copied the seahawks defense or kind of the philosophy of it but offensively no one's watching cowboys tape and going like oh i'm going to steal that and and i try not to be mean but it's like no one's really going oh that's really cool they already know that stuff It's more of like try and true concepts, but maybe some of them are a little out of date.

Those stop routes are a lot harder because corners have gotten a lot better at knowing what outside receiver routes are. Like how you can be attacked as an outside corner. And so when you're running a, when we say static routes, not only just the motions, but just the play designs, the route distribution. A lot of guys now, watch the chief's offense, especially, guys on the move, guys on the move. Overs, digs, move, move, comebacks as opposed to a stop route. guys where guys are running away from guys. And that's how receiver number is changing. Like one becomes two and two becomes one at some point during the route.

That doesn't even happen as much as you'd want it to in the company's offense. Yeah, it's just it's a lot of the day one install plays. And I don't mean that like, oh, they run basic shit, but more on like how you originally drop, how when you drop a play like I'm just making one up, but like fourverts. You drop fourverts. Okay, you're originally going to draw three by one formation. Boom. Okay.

Wise right here. The slots right here. the Z and X or the outside receivers. But then you get into the varied looks. Then you run out of one by three version. Then you switch the Y in the slot. You get into different formations and everything. A lot of the Cowboys stuff is like how you originally draw it.

I think that's the best way I put it. It's not like any little salt and pepper thrown in there, a little spice thrown in there. It's just like that is just the static look when we just, like we keep saying that word because it applies here. But that's kind of what they do with this stuff. And I completely agree. That's been my knock with what they do. It's like it's sound. Like it's not like bad where you like.

oh my god, that's some amateur shit. It's just that you hope it could just be modernized a little bit. It's like an old four truck. And I want so much more. With the talent on that offense, I want so much more. It could be so much better. But then you're just like,

okay, that's good. Yeah, the offense is great. But it's like, oh my God, it could be like revolutionary. Like,

it could be this like once of a decade offense. I'm so glad you feel that way. Because I'm, when I was watching it, that's how I was feeling. I came away like a little bit underwhelmed. And that I think is infected the way that I'm thinking about and projecting this team moving forward is that I really want to see more.

When they ran that pony personnel with Pollard on that practice tape, please, please, can I have more of that? All that. I just, I know that it's one play. And if you're stealing stuff, you can only steal so much. And that's Kingsbury's problem and whatever. But I just, I want to see a dynamic version of this offense because of the personnel that they have. And I just, I won't believe it until I see it because that's not what it's been over the last couple years. Just a couple tweaks.

That's all it is. It's just as supposed to be just being in two by two, start in three by one. jet motion the guy over. That's all it is. That's it. And I know, and you said it before, but it's not motion, just a motion. It's just you're trying to put some strain on the defense. Because if you line up.

Make it hard. Make it harder for them, easier for you. That's all I'm asking. Make them think just one percent more. And that helps you out so much. It's just a compounding effect. It might not matter in the first quarter when everyone can pass it off, but in the fourth quarter, someone's going to bust.

Especially you play a bad defense or bad communicators or you got a guy coming off the street. That's where those big explosives happen when just a simple concept. just because you motioned or ran a bunch formation or a stack formation when you originally were spreading everything out. Yeah. Just varied up a little. Throw a little spice. So my next guy, it almost pains me to put him in here because he's come up so much in the conversations I've had during this training camp in a positive way. Like people unprompted talking to offensive coaches had brought up his name to me because of some of the things I'm working on.

And it's Vic Fangio. The blanket respect that he has. has around the NFL as a defensive mind. It's there's no one else held in higher regard by offensive coaches throughout the NFL than McFangio. I'm telling you, conversations with multiple NFL play callers over the last week brought up to me unprompted. Yep.

My dad too. My dad, my dad, my dad speaks with, he speaks with him just like, like he has that type of respect. And I'm sorry, I cut you off. But yeah. Exactly, right? Like people that are lifers love him. And I think some of the stuff that Staley is doing now.

some of the things we think are revolutionary, people have been quick to remind me. It's like, this Fangio stuff. You need to remember that's Fangio stuff. But now he's a head coach, and it's a different job. And I think there are some people who always wondered, was he made for this? Was this a job that was suited to him?

And I think the Broncos are going to wonder that. I truly believe that this team could have a top three, top one defense for half the season. if they have because it's really hard to sustain that defensive success when your offense is truly terrible. You get for just human nature, you get worn down, you get put into bad situations. I don't know if their offense would be that bad, but there's definitely a timeline where it is. And if we get to the end of the season and they go seven and ten and they have the fifth best offense defense in the league, but their offense was 27th and they still don't have a quarterback, I think now some questions start to come up.

George Payton is there now. He comes in last season. He is now overseeing that team. He didn't pick Vic Fangio to be his head coach as the general manager. Do we get to a place next January where they look at the talent on the roster and say, we need to make a change? Because we need to go get a quarterback and are we comfortable going to get a quarterback with a lame duck staff?

I just think, and obviously there are ownership concerns there. There's confusion with who's going to own that team, where their future goes from here. So I just think this is a franchise at a crossroads. And does Peyton kind of sit there at the end of the year and say, Vic is the best defensive coach in the league? He can make our defense really, really good every single year. Is that how we want to build this thing? Because I think that could happen.

When we had the draft happen, and we talked about the Justin Fields, like the Broncos taking Justin Fields or something. That's what I'm thinking about. Yeah. And that was, and my head was just like, well, you take the guy. Yeah, you take the quarterback. And then you actually knocked into my brain. You're like, well, you got to think, like, are they comfortable getting a quarterback

and also switching coaches on it? And that's the whole, you don't, you take it for granted. And not take it for granted, but it's kind of an understated thing about the situation some of these franchise sometimes go through. It's a new GM. It's a new head coach. The personality's clashing, not clashing, but the personalities involved. in all these decisions, especially when you're taking a quarterback top 10, that is like,

everybody has to sign off. That's like owner, GM, president, head coach. We're all, I mean, a good franchise does anyways. Yeah, my team has not done that in the past. So thank you very much. Yeah, there's been teams that someone goes rogue a little bit. But that's what generally what you do. And that's where I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, kind of forget about those types of things.

So it's kind of like, they are kind of like in a weird yield as opposed to a stop sign. they're at a yield. Like they're just like, like, do we go full bore ahead or we wait for this guy to turn? And that's tough. That's a tough place to be because you feel like you waste the season. You waste the season of Von Miller. You waste the,

you know, you have other good players. And like we talk about windows all the time. If you're just also just punting on a year basically because you don't know what you're doing as a franchise, it's kind of like, you're just wasting a season. And it's a limited time for everybody.

NFL, not for long. I'll keep saying it. But it's like, that's where you get into these truly. I like how you put it, the franchise crossroads, because that's where it kind of just feels like. It's like they just kind of stood pat

on their quarterback and head coach situation when they have other stuff going on around it that could have maybe like made them take a leap. And yeah, so it's just an interesting thing to do. And I mean, that's the thing with a fan geo. And sometimes guys hit their ceilings as a coach.

I still optimistic about the Broncos, but it's some guys get promoted until they hit a point. What does optimistic about the Broncos mean? Just I, I think they're going to be very, if they have Teddy Bridgewater starting, I think they're going to be a lot more competitive. Like they're going to be feisty just because they're so talented. I don't think. What is feisty mean?

Does it mean nine and eight? Does it mean? Yeah, nine and eight, 10 and seven. Yeah, nine and eight, 10 and seven. I think, but that's their ceiling. I think that's what I mean. If that's where you are, where are you really? Yeah, exactly.

And that's, I mean, yeah, exactly. You don't have, they don't have the two things. When you go to a Super Bowl, who are usually, okay, we're trying to decide who wins the Super Bowl. Who do you look at? The head coach and the quarterback, right? So if the Broncos made the Super Bowl, it's kind of like one of those things where you're like, oh, I'm not really going to bet on them going the way

because you're not really liking that, those matchups. And yeah, yeah, you're right. It's the 10 and 7th ceiling is that that's their peak peak right now. If everything goes right. And that's where I'm more, I think they're just going to be feisty. I love what the point you brought up, though, saying defense might be good for the first half.

And it might be a little frustrated when all of a sudden they're losing a game 1713 again or something of that sort or there's five picks. I say it because I've watched it so much. Oh, yeah. You have the most experience anyone. I watched it happen last year. I mean, that happens all the time. So I just, it's just one of those things where, I mean, it's the Peter principle, right?

Like, you rise to the level of your incompetence. And I just think that Vic Fangio, it's possible that he's the best defensive coordinator in the NFL, and that's what he's suited to be. He's suited to be a defensive coordinator. Sometimes that works, where you have the defensive coordinator head coach. Like Zimmer, that's what he's been. But then you start to cycle through the offensive coordinators and you're constantly playing whackamol and they're coming in and out. There's a different one every year.

Let's pay the quarterback and that'll help. And then you just get into this middle ground where it's like, what are we? Where are we going? I think Mike Zimmer probably deserves honorable mention for this list for a lot of the same reasons. It's just you get to a place where you wonder, all right, where are we going? What are we doing? And I think that the Vikings got close. And I think that Mike Zimmer has been an excellent head coach.

But I think that that might be the best case scenario for what the Broncos are looking at over the next two or three years. And George Payton watched that up close. And I just don't know if he's going to want to go down that road again. Yeah, I mean, who does? No one wants to live in purgatory. It's either, hey, we're blowing this shit up and we're getting a nice pick or we're competing. Like, no one wants to live in that eight and eight or nine and nine world now. It's just the worst place to be in because then you're like, well,

And then you talk yourself in. And it's just, it can compound bad decisions, too, because then you talk yourself into signing guys and, oh, man, that's just, that's close. That's close. Yeah. If they went seven seven, because their defense was the best defense in the league, let's say. Yeah. And then you talk yourself into, okay, if we have the best defense in the league again and we make a couple of tweaks on offense, we're close. You're not going to have the best defense.

Reup Teddy. Reup Teddy for another year. Yeah, exactly. It's just you, you start bargaining with yourself. And it becomes a dangerous, dangerous game. And I just think that might be the place they find themselves at the end of the year. All right. Who's your next guy here?

I'm just, I'm glad you, you, I couldn't remember what the phrase was, but the Peter Principal. So I'm so glad you remember. I was trying to remember what that was. 10 minutes into the conversation to pull it,

but I eventually got there. I was like, I'm like, ceiling principal. I was like, Paul Principal. No. It's like,

so I'm glad you remembered. But my last guy, and I'm glad we talked about before, but emphasizing that this is crossroads. This isn't a hot seat or anything. but my last guy is Sean McVey. I love that you're doing this. This is amazing.

And I think just because Sean McVeigh is betting on himself. And that's really, that's how I read it. And that's how I'm reading just kind of how this off season goes. I mean, I'm not like super smart in saying that. But just, you know, some to shine off. You know, golf's gone. That was his guy, quote, unquote his guy. That's what we thought until maybe the last couple of months the last season.

It was a symbol of what he was capable of. Thank you. The idea that we can go to a Super Bowl with Jared Gough. that's how good of a coach, John McVeigh is. That's what we held up for a couple years. And I think that started to unravel, obviously, at the end of last season. And it led to the changes that you've seen. Correct.

And that's why I think he's at a crossroads. He basically got, for what they gave up for Stafford, he basically got to choose what he's doing next. And that's what he decided. And he's going, that's more or less handpicked the guy and said, that's the guy I'm going with. So he's betting on himself and saying, yeah, I did, I've had a top 10 offense basically every year with Jared Gough as my quarterback. Well, guess what? until you see this shit. So that's where I talking about, especially with Staley gone,

and he's already gone through defense coordinator changes. He had Wade Phillips. Then he had Staley. He tabed Staley and look what happened there. One he wanted this, one he didn't, right? Like one change he wanted to make one change. He wouldn't.

Yeah. That's the difference there. Yes. I mean, Staley would still be around if it were up to him. Oh, yeah. So it broke the bag for him. And that's where he's now, okay, now we got fresh change over there. Okay, I've now no continuity going on my defense.

There is. but, you know, you know, I'm saying, but, you know, someone who's making a decision. They've got some assistants that are still there, but they also lost some assistance. I mean, there's been a decent amount of turnover on the entire staff, right? A little brain drain. Now don't, do you lose Staley? Aubrey Pleasant was their defense backs coach. He's gone.

They still have a Giro Evereaux there, who's their passing game coordinator and their secondary coach. He was on that staff last year. So there's some carryover. And they're going to try to run some of the same stuff. But you have a new defensive coordinator. You move on from your offensive line coach. And you hire a college offensive line coach.

So that's another thing that you have to replace. Shane Waldron is one of McVeigh's right-hand guys. He's now the offensive coordinator for the Seahawks. I just think this is the next stage of Sean McVeigh's career. Literally, he's out of crossroads. He's going to take a turn somewhere else. I have faith that it's going to go well. I do think their offense is going to look awesome.

But this is definitely the next step. And I think that's why him betting on himself and the stakes that come with that, it's worth watching. And I think there's another example of that. And that's the last guy on my list. And it's Sean Peyton. Yep. It's a really similar conversation.

It is. Sean Payton didn't make the conscious choice to switch out his quarterback, but he's going to switch out his quarterback. When you're looking at the Peyton Bree's partnership, there's this eternal question of who deserves the credit. It's the same thing that happened with Brady and Belichick. When you have those long-term guys that are with each other and you have that era, you look at it's like, who contributed to this more?

and now we're going to see what he's like without Drew Briggs. We're going to see what the Saints are. This is the next stage of their franchise. And again, I have faith that it can go well. But this is where Sean Payton is going to define his legacy as a head coach in a certain way. Because we're going to see what are you without Breeze. I think Sean Payton is a, we've talked about him. I think he's the best offensive coach in the NFL.

Where we had Drew Petting on last week and I asked him, who did you watch this offseason? The first thing he said was, I watched the Saints. Always. Everyone says. Everyone. That is all you need to know about the place Sean Payton has as an offensive coach in the NFL. But now we get to see what he's like without. They've said this.

They're a supercomputer at quarterback. Just the backlog of stuff in Drew Brees's head and what that allowed that offense to be now disappears. You start over again. And what do they look like starting over again? And I think that goes a long way in shaping our opinion of Sean Payton and how we talk about him, how he's remembered all of this stuff that matters to you and I. And this starts that next stage of that entire process. Yeah. And when Breeze has gotten banged up the last couple of years, Sean Payton took another leap for me seeing what he put together with Teddy and Taseom and James.

It's gone well in spurts. It's gone well and spurts. Oh, they're not throwing up 40 a game, you know, but at least they're competent. And that it's like, but we talked about the Cowboys and now, you know, talking about the Saints offense, that is the highest compliment you can get is everybody watches your shit and everyone's trying to steal and nitp hit or take a little couple of little plays or concepts that you do. Because in and even, you know, I'll tie into too. We're talking about Sean McVeigh, too, going to this is his next step of his career is, you know, his next evolution as a head coach. Peyton kind of went that, but Breeze was just always the quarterback. You know, it's just like, you know, from the defenses, evident flowing to.

what he had around Breeze. And also we've talked to multiple times about how the Saints offense has kind of transition along with Breeze's arm strength. So he's kind of done it more in a boiling frog way. Like we didn't know for we didn't notice it for a few years. And then it kind of like was very stark maybe the last couple of years. And I think that's where now it's like more just there's a light to it that like, oh shit's changing.

You know like oh man like he actually, you know, this is going to be the next step with him. I just think they. I love this pick for you, like just talking about it because it is, I'm just so curious to what this was going to look like. Because I can't tell you what Sean Peyton ran with the Cowboys when he was a coordinator or the Giants or any of that stuff. Like I can barely remember it. So like, I only know what the Saints looks like when we stole shit when I was at Wisconsin, when we, you know, because of some of it was tied into what we ran into what I've watched in the last decade. And it's like I'm kind of very curious. It looks like James might be started.

But if they taste him, you know, running some stuff. what he's going to do with James is this going to be more down the field i'd rather see it with james i want i want to see it with james like as a football fan that to me is more interesting than because it's not weird he could yeah the taste and thing the taste and thing feels like a gimmick it feels cute does yes and i would rather see a slightly different version of a more traditional NFL offense my brain that's more attractive that's what that has to handle like you want to talk about playing your flag as a coach if he puts if james is put together a great season with Sean Baten as a play caller. Oh my God. Talk about playing

your flag. That's like he doesn't have to do. That's kind of what I'm talking about here. I know. That's why he's here. If he does it, it's like and that's the thing. He can. It's not where I'm like, yeah, you know, that's one of a hundred. It's like, there's a path where I see this happening. And that's what's going to be cool. That's what's awesome with some of these units and play callers and stuff is that you trust them to put at least competency. And then you're hoping for excellency with what they put out there and stuff that we watch every. week once we get game pass back up. And actually I can watch this stuff. It's going to be really fun to peak every couple weeks or every week and just kind of see like, oh, yeah, they're still running the stuff they ran the last couple years. It's like, oh, man, they're running that again. They're running slug-o seam and all this downfield stuff.

So that's why I'm curious to see too. So I think Champagne's a great pick because he really is at a crossroads, a major one as opposed to maybe just a slight right turn. I'm glad we ended this on a more positive note and not the coaches who might not have jobs at the end of the year. Because that's not what I wanted this show to be. I want to talk about guys that could go either way. And I think both of those guys, we're very optimistic about both Shans.

But this is a big moment. It's a big moment for both of them. And I think both of them would tell you that. So we're not saying anything that they wouldn't admit themselves. And honestly, I'm sure they love it. They love. They're competitive dudes. Like they are.

They love, they get bored. We talk about play cars getting bored. But like they're competitive dudes. They want to show everybody up. They read the negative pressing press clippings, even if they say they don't. They know what's being said about them. So it's like they're competitive guys. They want to prove a lot of people wrong or at least show, hey, yeah, no, I'm worth the hype that I've gotten this last few years, X amount of years.

So yeah, big year for the Shons. I love it. All right. That's all we got. Really appreciate it, buddy. You're getting married tomorrow. I mean, you're married already, but you're celebrating your wedding tomorrow. And I will be there.

And I am very, very excited to see you. I cannot wait. I can't wait either. I'm so glad you can call him. Thank you for coming too. And yeah, and you're bringing the lady. It's going to be great. Give a little break in your, well, I won't see what your background looks like in that hotel room.

But, you know, it's a nice break from you that it's a hotel in a different spot where you're not working. It's going to be great to see her in the middle of this trip. It's going to be great to take a slight break in the middle of this trip. I can't imagine a better way to take a break than celebrating you guys and having great time. So I cannot wait. It's actually not tomorrow, but in podcast time, it's tomorrow. So that's all it really matters. Oh, you got me scared.

I was like, see Friday? No, I love you, buddy. Thanks, man. I can't wait to see you. You go get ready for all that. You go enjoy yourself. We will talk to you next week, but at the end of next week. We're going to give you a little bit of a buffer between when you actually get married and when we have you back on the podcast.

Love it. Appreciate it. We're going to talk to you, bud. Talk to you later. See you. All right, guys. It's time for the team visit from today's episode. We visited with Tori McElaney, who covers the Falcons for the athletic, really interesting practice.

Just a lot of cool stuff happening there in terms of whether they're going for it, whether they're not, what the stage of the franchise is. We got into all of that. I hope you enjoy our conversation. All right. I am very happy now to be joined by the athletics Falcons writer. I struggled to spin that out the first time. Tori McLean.

Tori, how are you doing? I'm good. Excited to be, you know, out in heat. It's fine. We're fine. It's okay. This is actually a beautiful view. We are overlooking the practice fields at the Falcons facility right now.

We just finished with Falcons practice, and there's a lot to dig into. I, so I've been to a lot of teams so far. This is my eighth team in eight days. It's been wonderful. But the tone in a lot of those places is what are the final few things, right? Cleveland, Buffalo, Miami, the question's a little bit bigger because it's a quarterback. But that's where we're at. It's like, all right, how can we get over the finish line?

This team is at the starting line. Oh, yeah. And you can feel that with not only, the ways that they're deploying certain players, but just even the pace at which they're practicing and the types of things that they're doing, you told me today, this is the first time since the start of camp, you've seen them do any situational work whatsoever. Yeah, we got to see some two-minute drills today and we're six days in and I'm like, oh my gosh. Like I wake up every morning, like maybe I'll get to see some situational stuff and we finally got to see some today. And it's like, that's just where

they are right now. They are so early in this install process. And I think there's a lot of misconceptions that, you know, Arthur Smith's going to come in and change things immediately. And it's like, he needs some time because this personnel that he has is very different. What he had at Tennessee. What they can do is very different. And you've got to think about this. You know, this coaching staff is trying to figure out what these players can do. These players are trying to figure out what this coaching staff is all about.

There's a lot happening right now. And it's not something that OTAs was going to, you know, magically put together and fixed. And everything was going to be all rainbows and sunshine, you know, the first week of training camp. It's like, no, they are starting at a very foundational level, even six days into training camp. And I think that a really important spot to look at that speaks to that is the offensive line. We talked about this a little bit during practice. So you have your guys, you know, Chris Litson was a former first round pick. He's installed at one guard.

Jake Matthews is obviously very expensive, but he's here. J-Wen Mayfield is playing at right tackle right now. But that is because, and now the question is, is that because Caleb McGarry is hurt? or is it going to be a real competition there even when McGarry comes back? Because even guys that were investments, guys that were first round picks of a former regime, what role do they have on this team for this regime? We don't know the answer to that. And that's what makes this so interesting because we don't really have a timetable for Caleb

McGarry's return. You know, he's on the physically unable to perform list. He's on that pup list. And so we don't know what that timeline is. Arthur Smith hasn't said that there is a time. line yet. He said they want to have him out there. They want to get him out for training camp. But at this point, it's like how far away is he? And then also getting acclimated once he does come back. Are we looking at a situation where Caleb McGarry gets the all clear and he immediately

hops in a right tackle? I'm not 100% sold that that's going to happen because Jalen Mayfield. Which is so telling. Right? Because Jalen Mayfield has been out here every single day at that spot taking those reps. I mean, yes, he's had some highs and some lows because I mean, he's a rookie. They all are going to be that, you know, maybe outside of Kyle Pitts, which I'm sure we'll get to him in a minute. Oh, we certainly will. Yeah. But, you know, outside of him, like, that's the name of the game in your first year, especially for an offensive lineman. But you bring up a really good point.

It's like, is Jalen Mayfield a placeholder for Caleb McGarry? Or is this an actual competition that we are going to see play out when he comes back? That's going to be really stiff. And is it a possibility that Jailen Mayfield could be the starting right tackle beside Chris Lindstrom at right guard? that is one of the biggest questions that I have for this offense. And so obviously who's the right tackle for the Falcons is not one of the biggest questions about the NFL. But it speaks to the larger conversation about this team because I think back in February

in March when we were looking at the landscape of the offseason for Atlanta, it was tempting. I know I did this and I'm guilty of it to just want to throw them in the microwave and say this could be ready. Right. They right now this offense could be good. By all indications, I think with the Huluo, Jones trade, obviously, but with how camp is gone with some of these positional questions, that R-Lad depth chart I would have looked at on February 15th, very different. Terry Fontano and Arthur Smith are not that interested in whatever the previous version of

this team was. They're playing this a lot slower than we wanted them to play it when we looked at the talent on this team with potentially Kyle Pitts back in the spring. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And it's something that I literally wrote about this week was like, you guys got to understand that this is something that's going to play out for probably years. Yeah. This is something, they are, you know, I use the word, you know, I don't like to use the word rebuild because I don't necessarily think that this is what they're doing because you do have Matt Ryan around for another probably, you know.

He's the only one though. I know. But I think, in Calvin, you know. They have expensive players, right? Like Dion, Grady, Jake Matthews, they have expensive players. But I don't know how long all of those guys are part of this court. I mean, that's the question is like, could you, I mean, really, realistically, when we were talking to Arthur Blank and Rich McKay at the end of last season, they made the comment and they still will stand by this. It's like, we believe that we can be competitive and win games now.

Well, you're looking at this team right now. You're looking at where they are six days into practice, a week into training camp. And it's like, there's a lot of moving pieces. There's a lot of things they're all still having to learn about one another. and there's a lot, you know, we haven't even gotten to the defense yet. There's a lot of guys on one-year deals that are just here to get the Falcons 2, 2022. And that is where we're at. That's exactly right.

It's a really good way to frame it. This is, it feels, to me, it feels like a transitional year. Yes. Because you do have so many guys, you know, if we want to go back to the offense, you have Josh Andrews who's going to be the starting left guard. He's here for one year. To me, one of the more telling things by the structure of practice, right? This is the coolest part about being here and watching.

So you do one-on-ones. Calvin Ridley rips off. AJ Terrell was beautiful. Very fun to watch, right? But then special teams period starts. Most of the roster goes to work on puns or whatever they were doing. On this near field, the quarterback stayed and only two receivers stayed. Yeah.

It was Russell Gage and Calvin Ridley. That's it. Yeah. Those are the only two guys that have been deemed too valuable and with too large of a role to not go over there and practice with the punt team. That's all you need to know about the status of this roster is that Russell Gage and Calvin Ridley are the top two receivers and everything else is in flux.

Yeah, and that's what it feels like when you're out here. And I go back to like the fact that we haven't seen a lot of situational stuff. You know, I know that they're going over that. And I know we were talking to Dion Jones just like literally like five minutes ago. And I asked him, I was like, you know, Arthur Smith has said literally every single time that we have talked to him over the last week that they're trying to make it hard on you guys. They're throwing a lot at you guys. And he was like, yeah, it's a lot of situational stuff.

It's a lot of just seeing what we can do and throwing things at us. And it's that way. With the defense, it's that way. With the offense, they are so early in this. And I can't stress that enough. I feel like I'm a broken record saying that. But they really are. They really, really are.

So let's keep the tone pessimistic here a bit and talk about the defense because the offense, I do believe, can be good. I do. Right? It's not the same as it. would have been with Julio. And I think the expectations have shifted a tiny bit from where they were in the spring. And what I'll say is it's going to look a little different because you, especially, you know, they have to establish that run game.

And it's guys who you really haven't seen. See, I'm a pro Mike Davis person, though. So I think Mike Davis is just good. Here's the thing is Mike Davis, what he did, I mean, in Atlanta fan's note, like, what he did to Atlanta last year just ran all over them at one point. It was just. And now it makes sense why they would want him around. But like, that's a piece of it too.

That was something they couldn't do that last year. And they got so one dimensional at one point that it was like, defense were just picking them apart. They couldn't do anything on third down because they couldn't show anything on first and second down. You knew exactly what they were going to do. And that's the thing is like we're going to see something very different, I think. And is there success in that? Yes. But we just are trying to figure out what that is now.

I think coaches are too. I think there are little aspects, right? Matt Ryan is comfortable with the movements of this offense, right? He has turned his head. This can be unnatural. for some quarterbacks where you have this heavy play action system and even the full work and some of the he's done this right he played for kail shanahan he played in a system that was very similar they carried over a lot of that stuff so that is a ready-made thing calvin ridley's skill set

is a perfect fit for this offense he's a perfect for most office exactly yeah i do think a lot they were working on some double moves in the high red zone but during some sessions today like he looks so great doing the things they're going to ask him to do defense there's none of that yeah right yeah this thing is such an experiment on that side of the ball you have dion you have gritty you have a j torrell that's it yeah that's it and now every other piece is fungible and i do believe that they brought the right guy in to coach that defense oh when you look at what dean p's did a couple years ago with the titans when you don't have a lot of good defensive talent you got to be weird as shit yep he is willing to be weird as shit but i think that side

of the ball is a huge indication of the type of transition we're looking at you guys like to Ron Harmon on a one-year deal. They are really plugging some holes here, like you said, to get to 2022. I don't know what reasonable expectations for this defense probably should be. I don't either. Because it was funny, the very first time we talked to Dean Peas, like, you know, the week he was brought in, which I will go on the record and say, I feel like that's one of the best hires that they could have made.

It's a really smart thing to do. 1,000 percent. Arthur Smith needed somebody who he could give this defense to and just be like, hey, go out and do your thing, man. but, you know, when we were talking to him, someone asked her like, are you going to be a 3-4 or a 4-3, like 4-25? Like, what are you going to be? And he said, yes. Yeah.

And that's exactly what we're saying. Because personnel-wise, you really don't have the personnel to be a 3-4. They don't have the person to do anything. Exactly. I wasn't going to say it. I will let you go on the record for that. Be honest. They don't have the personnel to do much.

And it's going to be weird. It's going to be, they're going to blitz from all over the field because they're just going to have to throw. It's almost like throwing the kitchen sink out. them like because they have to be and that's something that you know I was talking earlier about the offense being too predictable like that was another thing with the defense last year I feel like at times they were they weren't disguising things well and I think you could look at the tape and it would probably show the same stuff but it's all about being able to do something that an opposing quarterback is not prepared for and that is the way that you they're going to have to succeed because

there are it's just a hodgepodge of guys it really does feel that way the secondary is pieced together on one-year deals, and there's AJ Terrell, and you have Isaiah Oliver who, you know, needs to step up this year. This is a make or break year for Isaiah Oliver. And then you have Foyer who came along really well, you know, at linebacker last year. He intrigued me. He did the movement skills and everything else. He had a great play in one-on-ones today where he's making a play 25 yards down the

field in coverage. That guy can move around. It's very impressive. I actually really do think that he's incredibly underrated. You know, he's a guy. I love his story too, so that might be a little biased because he came in. He didn't get a combine invite. He was a fifth round pick, and he just came out here.

He was a safety in college at Yale. He's now a linebacker, and he looks pretty good next to Dion. He moves like a safety playing linebacker. He does, yeah. Yeah, and they put him in coverage a lot, too. So you asked Arthur Smith about someone today whose name, I don't know if 90% of our listeners have heard. No, yeah. Jacob Tuittoy Mariner.

So that is where we're at. Yep. That is where we're at with this Falcons team is that you are asking the head coach about the plan for this guy that I guarantee you most of the people listening to the show have never heard of in their lives. Correct. That is. And the reason why is because Dante Fowler is still on COVID protocol. He's still on that COVID reserved list. We also don't know what this 20, 21 season is going to look like for Dante Fowler because the 2020 season, he wasn't the guy that the Falcons acquired him to be. And that's just he knows that. This coaching staff knows that. The pressure is on Dante Fowler to be that guy. But I mean, at the end of the day, it's like he's got to step up and they need more production from him. But right now, he's not out there. it's Stephen Means and it's Tooey and those are the two guys that are getting all those reps at defensive end and outside linebacker or whatever you want to call it but I mean it's it's interesting because they're just plugging and playing right now so let's talk about Kyle Pitts very briefly here because while there is some pessimism on the defense he is a very impressive young man very much so I just the size and watching him move around they had him split out wide in a couple different sets today it seems like he's going to be all over the place Like he is nominally a tight end. That is what he is.

But going back to that Russell Gage, Calvin Ridley thing, where you have those two receivers, that's it. End of list. I think there are going to be a lot of snaps. I would say maybe half the snaps where Hayden and Kyle were on the field together and you have those two receivers. He's going to have a massive varied role in this offense early on. 1,000 percent.

I think you knew that. You know it. Yes. You know it in your heart. You know it. It's like when you see it, it's like, oh, this. That's the thing. And that's what we were talking about in practice today. And I was like, you know, to actually see Kyle Pitts in the flesh, you know, see him run by you, see him make some catches that shouldn't be easy, look really easy. I mean, he's a fun player to scheme for because he can do so many things to your point. And I mean, it's exciting. But I will say this, you know, I think it is important to remember. And I've said this a few times and I think I've written it a couple times. Kyle Pitts needs to be Kyle Pitts. Kyle Pitts does not need to be Julio Jones. No.

Right? That's not the expectation. And I think a lot of people need to understand that this role for Kyle Pitts is he's not coming in and taking up that Julio Mantle. That's not what's being asked of him. What's being asked of him is to come in and beat Kyle Pitts. The goal for this team, we're going to have an entire show later in the summer about expectations for first year head coaches and what is success essentially. This is collecting football players. Yeah. That's where they're at.

And I think that some people viewed the Kyle Pitts selection as we're in win now mode. It's we need to get good guys. We need to pick guys that are going to be around and be foundational pieces. Let's pick the best football player. Yeah. And that's what they did. So by the end of this year, Kyle Pitts is one of those guys. Adi Torell is one of those guys.

Calvin Ridley is one of those guys. They're in collecting good football players mode. And that's enough for this team right now. Right. And you know, you do think about like the salary cap too in the situation that they're in with that. That's why they're in the position that they're in where they have a ton of guys on one-year deals. A ton of starters on one-year deals is because of the salary. that transitional mode that they're in in understanding like this is going to this is going to play out

over the course of two three years and you know like you know Terry Fonton is coming from a saint system where they they turn over a lot there's a lot of turnover there um maybe not with drew breeze as the quarterback but you know outside of that there's a lot of turnover I think he's going to be bringing guys in and out over the next two years three years to where they can get to a spot financially that they can do and build what they want to do and build. Well, it's going to be a fascinating year. I mean, this team is in such an interesting transition. I'm excited to watch it.

I do think Arthur Smith is going to do a good job because I think Arthur Smith is really good at this offensive football thing. Very smart, very smart. Very, very smart man. And I'm very impressed by him. But again, expectations, I think it's important to make them reasonable for this team because there is a lot of change happening and you can feel that. Tori, thank you very, very much for joining us.

It is very nice to meet you. It's very nice to sit here. It is good to be back doing this. So thank you for the time. Absolutely. It was fun. All right. Earlier this week, I had a conversation with Jaguar's offensive coordinator, Darryl Bevel.

Obviously, the plan for Trevor Lawrence is the most important thing happening in Jacksonville. It's the only thing that really matters in Jacksonville. So after Jaguar's practice, I visited with Darrow. We talked about the plan for Trevor, what he has seen so far. Hope you guys enjoy it. So I really wanted to chat with you about it. few different things. I just think that your background and how it could work with Trevor and everything else is really interested in me. First of all, we're talking to Darabovell. His Office of Coordinator for the

Jaguars. I keep forgetting to do that. Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. So I first and foremost, I want to know how did you get connected with Urban? What were those initial conversations like? How did this happen for more to put it simply? Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. Basically, I had an opportunity for an interview. And so I was able to come in here. I didn't know him. We hadn't crossed past really anywhere. I was one of you. any points of connection at all. We didn't cross past anywhere. And I don't even think I had much of a connection to him through anybody either. So fortunately, I was able to get an interview, got in here. We had great conversations. And then it was over the next couple days before we ended up operating

me the job. What do you think were the most important two or three takeaways you had from those conversations that really felt like, all right, this is good work. We're on the same page here. I think we had similar philosophies, number one. I think, you know, the ability, the adaptability, you know, to change, you know, not to be very rigid, you know, with what you wanted to do. And then I think some of the background that I've had with quarterbacks and then taking Russell, starting him as a rookie, I think that might have been intriguing as well. So what do you think are that really curious about that? What do you think is the most important thing you learn from that experience in 2012 that you

think can translate to what you're trying to do right now? Oh, I mean, there's a lot of takeaways from it. All right. Let's hear. I mean, it really is. But, you know, I think the, you know, just really the most important thing is how much can you put on those guys? Totally. How much to give them at the beginning, you know, you really try to inundate them with it and give them a lot while you're in training camp, while you're in OTAs, while you're in the mini camps, those kind of things. And then once the season gets here, then you kind of have to see, all right, where is you really at?

What can we, what can we do? You want the players to play fast, right? You want them to not have a lot of thoughts going through their head, not think. thinking through things and, you know, maybe a little bit of confusion that can slow them down. So that's a balance, right? Because you want to put a lot on them but still not wanting to bog them down. That feels like you have to have a little give and take. Yeah, so you learn that in like right now.

There's a lot on them today was the sixth install. We'll do a seventh one tonight. I thought the recall has been really good. And then today I think this one kind of bogged them down just a little bit. What was it specifically today? I think it just gets volume. You know, each and every day you add more. You add more.

And so for today, you know, you kind of could just start to see, you know, start to see the wheels spinning in some of their minds. And you can see the pace of play. They all start to slow down. And definitely with a young quarterback, that's not something we want to do. And so with, you know, going back with Russell, we were kind of, you know, just taking it slow, taking it slow. And then there became a point during the season, I can tell you, it was exactly the Chicago

Bear game. And it was like, okay, take the wheels off, take the training wheels off. This guy's got it. He can do everything. and we kind of let it go. But up to that point, you know, you kind of, I don't want to say spoon-feeding it, but you're slowing it down a little bit

and just giving them enough where you have enough to do on offense, but that you're not slowing down the players, particularly the quarterback. With the volume, is that formationally? Is that protections? Like, where do you think the bulk of the mental load comes that you have to be cautious with? All of that.

Okay. Yeah, because all of that adds to it. You know, you can run the same play, but if you put a different formation to it, even the same protection, you know, the back in can change or look different. You know, if you motion guys, move people, you know, if you change the protection, changes things. And then, you know, then however many concepts that you decide to go in the game with.

How do things get more complex? Like, what is the biggest difference between a quarterback, a first training camp install, seven installs in, and quarterback in the same system as year three? Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. I think so for a guy that's coming into the league and just starting, you know, It's like what is their background been? What have they been exposed to?

So some of them might be a little bit further ahead than others when they come in, just in terms of what style of offense they've done in college. But this is one of the things that I try to point out all the time nowadays that probably the biggest difference between our game and the college game, right? There's three things that we're talking specifically about quarterbacks, right? There's three basic fundamentals that you think from grade school on that quarterbacks have been doing, right? Number one, taking a snap. Do you ever see a quarterback under center in college?

No. Right? Okay, number two, calling a play in the huddle, right? Yep. How many of them actually verbally call the play to their guys in the huddle? Not a lot. And then number three, as funny as it sounds, doing a cadence. There's an art to the cadence, right?

There's an art to, why is Aaron Rogers so good? Why was Brett Farb so good with their cadences, right? And these guys come in and what have they been doing? They've been clapping. Look, clap, yep. Right? So as you think of just those three basic fundamentals that a quarterback's been doing since they were this high, those aren't anymore.

And now that stuff even bogs them down, right? So it's just so there's just so much that you add on top of, you know, to make it more complex. And I didn't even talk about a play. Yeah. I just talked about those baseline building blocks. Exactly. So do you think when the plays do come in, is it being able to tag stuff on the back side?

Is it like simple one side, one field side, half field reads? How does that get more complex after you've established the building blocks? Yeah, I mean, you can do all kind of things. You know, you put one concept on the front side, one concept on the backside. And then how do you read it? You know, do you read it just this coverage takes me here? This coverage takes me backside. Or I'm going to go from right to left or from left to right.

You know, those kind of progressions. And it depends on the type of play that you're giving them. So that can make it more complex as well. How much Clemson tape did you watch from the time you got the job until May 1st? We watched a lot. We watched a lot. When you're doing that, are you looking for elements of his game that you think you can tap into? Are you looking for specific things they did that you can maybe fold into your offense to ease his comfort level?

Well, I think both of those answers would be correct. One, you're trying to see what his potential is and what his strengths and what is strengths and weaknesses are. Because I mean, my job as the coach is to maximize his strengths and then minimize the weaknesses, not let those show up. Sure. Right? We all have them. And then the second part of it is what has he been exposed to? And can we, you know, if we've never done it before, either learn it or, you know, we know what he's been doing so we can put him in those situations because that immediately eases and puts him in a more comfortable situation. With all the RPO's and just the quick stuff they ran, it seems like those are easy buckets for a young

quarterback. Are you tempted to try to fold some of that stuff in, even if that's not your background, just to get him comfortable? Oh, for sure. Yeah. You want to, you want to, it doesn't matter what I'm comfortable with, right? I got to make sure that he's, that he has some level of comfort plan. And it feels like with the type of offense you run, which I love watching. I love what it looks like with Matthew. I love what look like with Russell. Having that play action aspect to it, it almost feels like a way to insulate your quarterback when you want to insulate him, both with protection and just simplifying what he's seeing. Do you feel that way with some of the downfield play action stuff that it can be a way to help your young quarterback get comfortable early.

Yeah. And I think one of the biggest things is it creates space for the quarterback in protection. Exactly. It's not just guys pinning their ears back, running. They have to play the run. Then they have to transition to a rush. So a lot of times you create more space for the quarterback. Obviously, you have an idea of what he's going to be like before you start. What is the most important thing you've learned about him since you started working with him that helps you coach or teach him? I think how mature he is. You know, like this hasn't been too big for him coming in, which obviously, I mean, the guy's been the face of college football, really,

for the last few years. And so I think the maturity level has been something that's really impressed me. The other thing I'd ask, so in terms of physically, is there an aspect of his game physically that's maybe a little bit more pronounced, a little bit more impressive? I know it's easy to see on tape, but when you get up close to it, I'm sure you appreciate it in a different way. Yeah, I mean, the guy, the thing that you forget is this guy is six, five and a half.

He's huge. I was shocked when he walked past him. Yeah, I mean, he's a big guy. And then, you know, the movement skills that he has as a guy that size has, you know, has probably been something that really impressed me. And then as you see it in person, you're like, I mean, that guy's six, five and a half doing that. The last thing I'll ask you, Marvin said that he's been really aggressive. He's not afraid of tight window throws. He's going to push it and try stuff in a way that a young quarterback might not always be willing to do ambitious type stuff. Is that what you've seen too? Well, I think you saw the ball that, you know, to Marv,

that he threw. I think a veteran receiver likes that. You know, he kind of stuck that one in there today to Marvin. There's a fine line with that, right? I mean, we want to be aggressive. We don't ever want to take their aggressiveness away, but we do want to play smart because they've got to understand how important the ball is. Awesome.

I really appreciate the time. All right, guys. That's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Tori for the time we spent with her in Atlanta. Thank you very much to Daryl Bevel for joining the show. Thank you to Nate, as always. We will be back next Tuesday with some more stops from our training camp tour. By then, I will have been in L.A. for a couple of days.

So we'll be back with Lindsay that day. Until then, enjoy your weekend. Thank you guys so much for listening. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would very much appreciate that. Also, please subscribe to The Athletic. I'm writing twice next week, some things that I'm really excited about. So I really hope you guys read those things and check that out.

it is so important to have a subscription at this time of the year to follow all the stuff that's going on with the league. Obviously, we're having a ton of athletic writers on. I hope you've gotten some insight into the way they cover these teams, how well they know these teams. It's an immense resource, and I really encourage you guys to go grab one if you do not have one already. It's theathletic.com slash football show. We'll be back on Tuesday. Talk to you guys soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.