The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Commanders, Jets & Buccaneers offseason outlook with Ben Standig, Connor Hughes & Greg Auman

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

How can the newly-named Washington Commanders make a name for themselves with the QB market the way it is in 2022? What do the Jets have to hang their hat on after two years under GM Joe Douglas? And where do the Bucs go from here after Tom Brady steps away from the game? Robert Mays is LIVE at the 2022 NFL Combine and is joined by team writers Ben Standig, Connor Hughes, and Greg Auman of The Athletic to discuss why their teams might have the most interesting storylines this offseason.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Thursday, March 3rd. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. We're going to continue with our series chatting with some of our athletic team writers covering what we see as the most interesting teams in the NFL this off season. A little bit later, Connor Hughes, who covers the Jets for us, is going to join the show,

as well as Greg Elman, who covers the Bucks. The Bucks are not a team I expected to be. on this list, maybe two or three months ago. Things have taken a turn down in Tampa, so they have forced their way into the conversation. Before we get to those guys, though, I am thrilled to welcome one of the fine gentlemen who covers the Washington football team. I'm refusing to say the name of the Washington football team. I think I'm going to continue to refuse to say it.

Ben, thank you very much for doing this, man. I appreciate it. Robert, I appreciate you having me on. Thanks. So yesterday, for example, all right, we started this series in earnest yesterday by talking to Bull Wolf and Matt Schneiderman. They are part of the quarterback calculus, those two teams. The Rogers Domino will likely be the first one to fall,

and things will kind of fall into place from there. Then what happens with Russell Wilson, then the other quarterbacks that you get to. The team waiting for those dominoes to fall to see how the quarterback landscape ultimately shakes out, Washington is one of the two or three teams in that conversation. So as you're sitting here on March 2nd, March 3rd, thinking about the Washington quarterback calculus,

what are they thinking about? What do you think the conversation in the building is about filling that spot here over the next month, two months? You know, it's interesting. All these coaches and all these GMs are talking and a lot of them are getting questions about what to do. And they're all giving some sort of standard, you know, we're considering all our options. Ron Rivera has gone on a political campaign for the last few weeks. He's done at the – he went – he flew out to L.A. for the Super Bowl and did about 10 radio row interviews to just – I've never seen anything like it, by the way.

As far as standing head coach, you'd be at Radio Row just chatting it up, selling the team logo the way that he was. 100%. And like I've noted in some recent articles that, like, you know the stump speech. He's going to talk about they have the six rated offensive line according to somebody and two 1,000 yard offensive playmakers and a defense that, you know, has talent on it and so on. It's his way, I think, of acknowledging they have got to fix this problem. And he's doing it in a somewhat aggressive way. He and others are saying they will be aggressive. if they really need to go solve this. They tried to get Matthew Stafford last year.

A little bit of it, as Martin Mayhew told us earlier, a little bit of an inside job. They did the ran. They had something, things going their way. They've got to figure this out. It's not so much maybe that Rivera's job is in danger. You know,

they have back-to-back seven wins seasons last year. That was a bit of a disappointment. But I think this, everybody kind of recognizes the gap right now between the haves and the have-nots at that position is pretty extreme. And to go through another season without something more than just a basic quarterback is not going to get the job done. But this draft isn't that exciting. The market is potentially bleak. And I don't know how they're going to get it done,

which is why I think he's trying to tell the world, not only we in this business, two teams, he's also trying to tell the fans, we're really going to try, but we'll see what happens. What do you think the perfect case scenario plan looks like? So you're talking about like if a Russell Wilson becomes available? Let's say in the non-Russell Wilson, category. Let's say they miss out on the Russell Wilson, Aaron Rogers, tier of quarterback. So they have to shop in the tier below that. What do you think the best case outcome

looks like? So I think for them, it's going to come down to this. Jimmy Garoppolo is obviously the best guy that we think will be available, but he's going to cost you some type of draft capital, maybe a second round pick or more. Plus, he's got one year left at $25 million, and if you give up an early day two pick, you probably

have the one to extend him. So that's good money. I don't know, though, because of his injury history, if they think that's that makes sense for them. I feel like it's hard to say this is the best case scenario, and you, of all people, may really think this, but the Mitch Trubisky draft the guy at 11 path feels like it's becoming the one that makes,

maybe it's hard to say it's the best, but it is the most realistic sense. And of the realistic options, it may be the one because at least Trubisky, to some degree, there's some potential there. And they have to determine whether just things didn't work out in Chicago because of the coaching situation.

or what have you. And then at least you have, if you go with the first round quarterback, it buys you some time for the coaching staff to say, hey, you have to give us some patience with this kid. And you have like sort of two options to hope that one of them kind of pans out. As I was thinking about it, that is the path I went down a little bit. It's like, all right, let's just play this out. You bring in somebody, let's say the Trubisky price is, whatever the going rate for stopgap starting quarterbacks has been in the league over the last couple years.

let's call it one year $12 million, similar to the deal that they gave Ryan Fitzpatrick last year. Draft the guy at 11, and that allows you to do whatever you want. If by week four you feel like a Kenny Pickett or Malik Willis or whoever they end up drafting, which we can get to, is your better option, you can pull the rip court on the $12 million quarterback because you know he's not the long-term answer. It gives you two possible solutions to the problem. And in a quarterback class that we're all a little bit underwhelmed by, it gives you enough time. That guy doesn't have to be your day one starter because you have at least a temporary solution at the position. That's not crazy.

Like, that's a logical solution. It's a possibility. And it does feel like it's probably the path that they're going to head down when this is all said and done. Right. I mean, that's what I think. I've been trying to talk to our fans here for a while because everybody's excited to get one of these star quarterbacks. And I'm like, I get it. But you've got to be realistic with the situation.

You can get mad at Ron Navarre all you want if they don't. But if none of these guys are available, and even if they are, there's a lot of teams that want a quarterback, and we can debate whether some of these quarterbacks who maybe become available would even want to go to Washington because of all the other drama that's going on. But other than that, what can you do to make this the best situation possible and having two paths with two guys who have some potential? You know, again, Tribisky, whatever you want to think of him, even a guy like Marriota, there's some injury history, but there's some hope there that he can turn into something.

And of course, when you go that route, everything has to come into play. The defense has got to be a top 10 defense the way people thought it would have been. this year. Antonio Gibson's got to stay healthy, right, avoid the fumbles. Terry McLaurin, oh, Curtis Samuel should play. That would be a help, right, on offense, things like that. So if they can do the other stuff, which Ron Rivera thinks they can, there's some debate, but I don't think he's completely insane for thinking that if everybody stays healthy and does their job, they have some good stuff, then you see. And look, the NFC East is still not the greatest division. If Tampa Bay takes a step back because of Tom Brady

and et cetera, et cetera, you know, you can squint and talk yourself into saying that this could happen, that's better than nothing. And you've got to try something. And that's only unless you're willing to tank, so to speak, and go all the way down and get the top three pick next year to then give yourself a shot, then this is where you're at. That ship has sailed the moment that they made the playoffs and that they added in free agency, the offseason following that playoff run, let's call it, when you win seven games. But you look at it, all the quarterbacks for the most part outside of Mac Corral were

at the Senior Bowl. There were not that many coaching staffs at the Senior Bowl. Washington's not offensive coaches to the senior bowl. They are looking at quarterbacks. This is going to be a part of their process. I think that there's a strong chance they land on one of those guys at 11 because in this group, there's a chance the first quarterback goes at 11. It's possible that even if you're underwhelmed by this class overall in these five options,

you can pick whichever one you like the best with the 11th overall pick. Because if you look at the way that the top 10 has fallen, you have a lot of teams that either don't need a quarterback are probably aren't willing to draft a quarterback that high. Theoretically, Detroit or Houston could draft a quarterback. You're not likely drafting one in the top three in this draft. The Giants have their quarterback. Carolina, potentially, I think they're going to try to go the veteran route.

I think they need something right now. If I were to make a bet on it right now. Atlanta will see what happens. And then Denver, but there's absolutely a chance that you're sitting there at 11. No quarterback has come off the board, whichever one you like the best you can draft. You can bring him along whatever pace you. you want to bring him along. If it doesn't work, you start over.

You pick the next one. It's not that big of a deal when you're spending one first round pick on a guy. You're not leveraging your future in any way to go get that guy. And I think that you can bring him along whatever pace you want to bring him along. That makes sense to me. 100%. And you're right. It could absolutely be the first guys there.

And one thing it's important to know, people keep acting like people that scouts are saying, this is a bad quarterback class. That's not what they're saying. What they're saying is it's an uncertain class. there's a distinction. Everybody acknowledges that one or two of these guys will probably become a starter. It's just harder to tell. And you're also not sure about the upside for some of these guys.

Like Malik Willis probably has the highest upside that seems to be the consensus. Most people also say he needs to sit a year. So, okay, and now that's a little bit of a game, right? If you think he should sit a year, well, then the upside is how attainable actually is the upside. And then you still have to sit the year. And can you do that? If you actually go with a Tribisky route, you still have Taylor Heineke. you actually have two guys to sort of go with if you need to.

So you could actually do that right. Whereas, like, Kenny Pickett seems to be the one everybody says is the most ready. Okay. But what's his, you know, what's his ceiling? And that's where this game becomes, you know, it's, again, it's not that these are horrible options. It's just what do you, how much can you guarantee if you're spending a high pick, like the 11th pick, that these guys are going to actually hit to the degree that you

want? That's the game. I think most teams are having to play here. So Ron Rivera, this seems. to be the company line. You laid it out. Not a quarterback away necessarily, but this is the big question we've answered a lot of other ones. Do we think that's true? Because I'm tempted to think that way. I was bullish on this team coming into last year. I thought you dropped Fitzpatrick in. There's no bigger Terry McLaren fan in America than me. You have Curtis Samuel is your number two

option. I was excited about Antonio Gibson. The offensive line is a solid group. I expected them to be a top 10-ish defense. And as long as you have the top 10 defense and you have the 14th best offense in the league, you're a viable team. And that's what they felt like they might be last year. That didn't happen. No. Okay. Even outside of the Ryan Fitzpatrick thing, I would think you could make an argument that the Washington defense was the most disappointing unit in the NFL last season compared to preseason expectations. They finished 18th and weighted defense at DVOA. It was a much better end to the season than the beginning. but this is a group that underachieve.

You have Chase Young coming back from injury, but for the most part, this is a group that is expensive. They spent a lot of resources on it, and they did not play as well as you would hope last year. Curtis Samuel, like you mentioned, didn't play last season. Antonio Gibson wasn't as good as they wanted him to be. So is this team actually good? Is the underlying foundation of it as good as they seem to believe it is?

I have questions about that. So, like, on the one hand, I want to make it seem like Ron Rivera is a big delusion. by saying they're kind of a quarterback away because, you know, how could you quite say that when you guys collectively underachieve the, you know, does the quarterback make the defense that much better? It would help, but it doesn't automatically make it so. But on the other hand, yeah, I mean, look, that defensive line, the four guys that drafted in consecutive first rounds,

there's a ton of talent there. And with Chase Young coming back from his knee injury, Montes-Weed had some issues last year, if both of those guys were able to come back and be ready to go, that's a pretty good tandem. Plus Jonathan Allen became a first-time Pro Bowl. Jonathan Allen was a very good player. He's the best player on that defense right now.

Right. And Duran Payne's an absolutely totally solid guy. Their secondary was a bit messy for most of the year. But on talent level, William Jackson, Kendall Fuller is not a bad cornerback combo. Cam Curles are rising safety. They've got to determine whether Bobby McCain is back at free safety or if they can upgrade. I think the one piece they need to add is a Mike linebacker. Ron Rivera has said that. Jamie Davis, stuck after the.

work in progress, we'll say, but he's not that guy. So maybe that's like the one expense they go out and make either in free agency or if they somehow choose to not use the first round pick there or maybe the second round pick there. So that's add that piece. And then on offense, like you said, they have playmakers. If Curtis Samuel plays, it was the weirdest thing last year, watching that. It's so bizarre.

So bizarre. It was nuts. But they have to, maybe they go out and get another outside receiver because I always thought that Samuel was more of a slot guy, but they maybe disagree. Brandon Shurf is probably going to be gone in for agency after back-to-back tags. But they have a guy in West Whiteser who wasn't bad last year, filling in. Functional player. Yeah.

So if you add the middle linebacker, you add an offensive playmaker perhaps, and we talked about how they could add the tribusky and a rookie. Again, I don't think it's impossible. I imagine Philly may take a step back because of just the schedule and, you know, we'll see what happens there. And again, the rest of the conference, we'll see how it goes. it's not crazy to think that they could be. But again, the Trubisky rookie, Brad, I keep saying Trubisky as if that's happening. I think Trubisky as an archetype of the quarterback that you're bringing in.

That's what you're saying. I think that makes total sense. Tribisky, Mariotta, whatever, you spin the wheel of underwhelming quarterback option and whatever you land on. And that's where they are. When they decided not to make a move last year, they did not like Justin Fields. So they were not willing to make a move for Justin Fields.

So if you're not willing to do that and you're looking at Mack Jones, it's not surprising they didn't go get their quarterback last year. You know the teams that potentially could be in the quarterback market, if they didn't do it a year ago, they were going to be in a bad way this year. And that's where Washington has found itself. And now it's like, okay, let's play the string out. Let's say you get the quarterback, you draft the quarterback at 11. He sits for a little while.

You end up playing him in 2023 as your starter, and you feel pretty good about him. How much does that lift the other elements of this team? How much does that make the receiving core look a little bit better than it does on paper, all of that stuff, that's unanswerable. The one thing that we have not said, and the one thing I think is important to acknowledge, is that I'm encouraged by the offensive staff. I think that Scott Turner has done a good job with a talent that he's been given. And you look at that passing offense last year, they lost their starting quarterback in

week one, and we didn't really talk about it because they were more, they were definitely better and more functional than we expected them to be. So now, if you have a real uptick in quarterback talent, what does that ultimately look like if we feel good about the work they've done with the players who were in house. I don't know the answer to that. It's just a very strange team. It seemed like they were on one timeline a couple of years ago after making the playoffs. It's like, if they get the quarterback and where did they go from here, and that hasn't happened.

And it's now, it just feels murkier than I expected it to. Yeah, I agree. And I think the, I think of realistic, the other variable here is the owner. Not so much because there's a congressional inquiry or whatever, but the idea that he has injected himself into situations with this team often. in his career. Now he tends to, it's a start of a new coaching regime, let that coach kind of do his thing. Well, if Ron Rivera sort of doesn't get this thing to a winning record this year, right? And with all the things happening with the owner and we'll see where he is by the time we get to the end of next season, that could be a point where he says, hey, you know, where are we here at this team?

I need to do something myself because if nothing else, I need to change the narrative on this world because of what's going on here. And that's the part where I wonder about like their level of like urgency of how much they need to do something now. Because Ron Rivera has a five-year deal. Again, I don't think in a logical sense, he's in real danger. But there's this, I don't want to say it taking time bomb, but there's this thing out there. Urgency is a good word. And we just don't know what is going to happen. And that's why I do get the sense that they are a little bit more, hey, we've got to figure something out here.

They tried to get Stafford last year. Fine. Everyone did. Right. But it didn't work. They got to, I think they got to figure something out, though. Do you think there was a consideration from moving on from Jack Del Rio and trying something different on defense after the results that happened last year.

That to me is the one other sticking point for the choices that they've made here over the last few months. Yeah, I mean, I think my sense at the end of the year was there was some consideration, but obviously they ultimately stayed where it was. I think the thing, though, is with Ron Rivera, while he's the coach, there is a element of he's a little more of a CEO than a hands-on coach, and he gives Jack Del Rio and Scott Turner a lot of latitude. Jack Del Rio was a former head coach, obviously, and I think he likes having that guy there.

if he'd let Del Rio go, then he may have to go find somebody with that level of experience that he can trust. And, you know, maybe that he just didn't want to go through that. But also, he talked a lot during the last year about the lack of maturity and discipline on this team. And when you really read between the lines, he was talking about certain players and Chase Young was the most obvious guy. And the defense did become a lot more disciplined when Chase Young got hurt and was out. And Montes Sweat was also out. And they had two guys, random pieces at defensive end, a several. seventh round pick and a guy that picked off the scrap heap, and somehow the line was more functional.

I don't think that says to me in terms of attack Del Rio, the plan seemed reasonable, but the execution, everybody doing their job was not. Now, it's on the coaches to a degree, but you've got to have your players buy in. And I think that's what they've got to figure out defense over this year, is what was the, what was the disconnect between the players not sort of following the plan and what they were doing schematically. All right. Well, I'm very curious to see what the quarterback plan ends up looking like and how they fit into this overall, the sequencing of how it all is going to work. So I got to ask you, so I do think there's something to the Trubisky thing. Like, I have heard many

people say to me that they think this is where he probably ends up if you had a sort of guess. And the question is, do you believe it? You are the Trubisky guy. What do we think? Do you think he's, how salvageable is he? I think for a year he's definitely workable, like we talked about. Scott Turner's in a pretty darn good job, in my opinion, with the offensive talent that they have on that team. Think about the resources that they've spent on offense. Just Curtis Samuel. Terry McCloran's a third round pick. I mean, one-year stopgap option for Charles Lano, obviously, he got extended.

I mean, other than that, for the most part, they've pieced this thing together. And they looked pretty damn good at times last year. There was a four-game stretch where we took time on the show to be like, what is Washington doing on offense? How is this possible? I think Trubisky is functional for a short game. term in an environment like that. But it has to be part of a larger plan. And I think that if you give him one year and $10 million, one year, $12 million, whatever it looks like, and you go get a rookie quarterback, I think that is a fine approach given the options available to them. I agree. And I think

also what I think they want to do is, I think they want to add another running back because Antonio Gibson between the injuries and the fumbles, when he was out, they didn't have another guy who could early downs or run between the tackles, keep the ball moving. When they had the four-game winning streak last year. He was the best player. He was the most indispensable player on the team. He helped the ball control, which helped the defense stay off the field. They needed another piece of that. Whether they keep J.D. McKissick or not, I wouldn't be surprised if they add another decent running back to take, also it takes pressure off that random veteran and or a rookie, so they're not forced to throw the ball 35 times a game.

I think that may be the way they also try to solve this thing without, okay, we don't have the elite quarterback. How do we sort of do like sort of at the 40, Niners did to agree, take the pressure off this quarterback and work it out in other ways. Makes total sense to me. Ben Static, thank you very much for the time, my friend. Very good to see you. Appreciate doing it. Robert, I appreciate it, man.

Thanks a lot. All right. I am thrilled now to welcome our Jets writer at the Athletic, a man who has literally seen it all. And now we're here to talk about it. Connor, thank you very much for doing this, man. I appreciate the time. No problem. Thanks for me all, man.

I appreciate it. All right. Let's start with little kernels of optimism here, which is, well, You found some. Well, they have two top ten picks. And that's where it has to start. Yeah. This is a familiar conversation.

In a draft, in a draft that has no top ten players. So, yeah, let's go. Let's go. Let's do this. So I was talking to an agent today. Yeah. And we were talking about the quality of the top ten. Yeah.

And he said, none of the players that are going to go in the top ten would have gone in the top ten last year. But 15 through the fourth round is great. Yeah. Which is fantastic for a Jets team that has two picks in the top ten. Yeah, exactly. It's going to be wild, man. And that's honestly what it's come down to. I mean, I remember I was, as the season was going on, because, I mean, the one positive

about working here is we got Dane. So, like, I don't, my. The one, that's the one good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the one, yeah. Dane, though, has made my, my college scouting really go into the toilet because when I used to have to watch film, now it's like, look, I'm not even going to pick up half what he does, so I'll shoot him at tech. So I remember when I, the Jets had these two top ten picks.

It was looking pretty good because the Seahawks started stinking. I started talking to him, and he was one of the first people that said it. And then I started talking to some other. the GMs and they started saying it and some other scouts and they started saying it. And I think what you're going to have is just a lot of good players and not necessarily the great excellent ones. You know what I mean? The perfect example that I heard was Elijah Moore. Jets drafted him in the second round last year. He'd be a top 15 pick if he was in this year's class.

I mean, that's kind of how this one shakes out. Now, the positive for the Jets is that they are not a team that's a player away. They're not one or two guys away. They are, they're a team that needs players. So forget stars. Yeah, they need them. They also just need good average and solid guys. So for them to have these number of picks in a draft where you're going to have a lot of decent, really good players in there,

it's going to benefit them because they'll at least be able to start to really round out this roster with solid players because they don't have them either. Let's spin this in a little bit of optimism. Because the two positions in the top 10 where there does seem like there's a lot of options are offensive tackle and pass rusher. Two positions that arguably the Jets could chase. So if they come out of the top 10 with one of the offensive tackle, and a pass rusher, that feels like kind of the best case scenario when you think about the available players and what their team-building strategy at this point should look like. Yeah, and I think that the number four pick is the one that I'm most fascinated with,

because I remember when the Jets season was starting to get, go south. The eye, the apple of everyone's eye was Hutchinson or Tibado. Like those were the two. It was like, if the Jets can come away with one of them, it's going to go a long way in Robert Sala trying to replicate that 49ers defensive front in East Rutherford. because that was Bosa and Armstead and Buckner, and then they traded for Ford. And it was just, I mean, you were running five, six deep on that line at all points in time.

They've got Quinn and Williams is a solid player they like. They signed Carl Lawson, unfortunately no one saw last year. They re-signed John Franklin Myers. You add Tibido to that mix. You add Hutchinson to that mix. And suddenly this group looks pretty solid, right? Like, it's not the 49ers, but you got a front that a lot of people are going to be scared about. When they finished with the fourth pick, it was like, well, no, no chance of Tibdo Hutchinson.

now you're starting to hear the little rumblings that Tibido might fall and he's going to go down. And suddenly now it's like, you know what? He might be there for them. And if they can come away with him at four and then open up your options at 10 where there's the kid from Iowa, that's center from Iowa who could be an option there. There's obviously depth that the offensive tackle position that could be there. Maybe the Steelers or one of these other teams fall in love with a quarterback. And suddenly we talk about how deep this class is, right, that you're going to have a lot of guys after 15 that are going to be good.

maybe the Jets go from 10 to 16 and recoup another second round pick or they recruit some extra third round picks or maybe a future pick for a team that wants to go up there for one of these quarterbacks and now suddenly you're really starting to rock and roll a little bit. So, I mean, it's not like worst case scenario. It's just a shame because, you know, if Jemar Chase was in this year's class, like the Jets are running that one to the board. If Kyle Pitts is in this year's class, they're running it to the board.

If there's one of these corners, like a Jalen Ramsey in this year's class, they're running it to the board. There's just not. So that's a shame. But like I said, the one positive, there's still good players here, and the Jets are going to have a chance to really round out the roster by drafting them. And let's say one of the tackles is there at four. You draft one of the tackles there, and I don't know the class as well as I'm going to need to in the next couple months,

but like Karloft, somebody that is going to be there at 10 and is a potential top 10 pick. Yeah. So you have those two spots. I think that makes sense. So the offensive line, I think, is a telling position for this team in a lot of ways. Because you drafted an offensive lineman 11th overall two years ago if you're Joe Douglas. And now there are questions about whether he's going to be the left tackle coming into this year. This leads me to a question that I don't mean to sound mean, but it is going to.

In the first two years of the Joe Douglas era and the first year of the Robert Solid era, what has gone well? What is the thing you would hang your hat on if you were a member of this regime so far? Again, I'm not trying to be an asshole. It's a question I really want to know the answer too. Yeah. I'll be honest with you, man. I think that that 2020 things awash.

Like it's... It seems like it. Yeah. And I know I've talked to people in that building that, that view it that way, that they're basically like, you know, it was, it was an old regime. It was, yeah, it was Joe Douglas, but it was Adam Gase. He was drafting four. And yeah, they swung and they missed.

There wasn't great communication between the coaching staff and the front office at the time. And, you know, there were all, whatever reasons that they have for why it didn't work out. But for them, it's almost like they're saying, throw it to the side. We actually started in 2021. And unfortunately, you can't necessarily do that. which is why I think this draft is such a telling one, because you look at 2020 and it's ugly.

I mean, all the way down, whether it's Bechton, Denzel Mims, Ashton Davis, James Morgan, Le Michael P. Ryan, I mean, Cameron Clark. I mean, you can go all the way down with Bryce Hall, who's a solid find in the fifth round, but not a stud player by any stretch of the imagination. That's really the only thing you're hanging your hat on. But then you look at 2021, and it's top to bottom. I mean, say what you will about Zach Wilson,

obviously young developing quarterback, but Elijah Vera Tucker looks like a player. Both of the Michael Carter's are players. Elijah Moore, he's a player. I mean, it's Brandon Eccles, a player they're drafting the sixth round, playing legitimate minutes, a player that Jets want to see develop and think he can build into a starter. Jason Pinnock getting reps at safety. I mean, they have a lot of these players in 2021 that it's like, what changed?

Like, what the heck happened from 20 to 21? And that was my thing, because it can't just be because of Adam Gase. And I talked to this organizational alignment, right? Yes. I mean, the fact that there's that, the communication level, that's the argument against having a lame duck head coach with the first-year general manager. It's almost like you're wasting that draft in a certain way. Yeah, and the one thing that changed for the Jets was that Robert Sal and his entire coaching staff did this big meeting, this big tell-all meeting where they broke down.

Robert Salon, every one of the positional coaches with not only Joe Douglas, Chad Alexander Rex Hogan, but every single area scout that they brought in through Zoom, they went through every single position on the roster, all 22 positions, and every positional coach gave a presentation on what they need with that position and what they specifically need. Is that a Seattle thing? Salah did it in San Fran. But he is also from Seattle, so it could have been that as well. I know that Dan Quinn did that when he got to Atlanta. When Kyle was the offensive coordinator. Quinn's one of the mentors for Salas. So I figured there's something with that tree.

Well, Joe did it in a Philly too. So like Joe did it when he went to Philly because he came in 17 and Doug Peterson was there in 16, but it was just Doug Peterson. So it was Howie Roseman, Joe Douglas and Doug Peterson. And then when he went to, when the Jets hired Sala, they were like, hey, we'd like you to do this. And Sala goes, no, no, no, it's going to be a lot more intense than that. this is what we're going to do. And that's what he did in San Francisco for John Lynch, what Kyle Shannon did for John Lynch. And at the time, Sala was the defensive coordinator. So he's like, let's replicate it. Let's do it again. Let's do this again. And it's, again, it looks like it

worked in 2021. I think this is like what tips the scale one way or another because 2020 so bad, 2021 so good. What do you got in 2022? So if 2022 looks like 2021, the Jets, you know, seriously, if you're a jet fan, cross your fingers because you might actually be headed in the right direction. 2022 looks like 2020. The Jets are going to be looking for new head coach, new GM, and we're starting this cycle all over again. So I think this is a very, very telling year and a very, very telling draft for the way that Joe Douglas is able to operate as a general manager and the overall future of this Jets franchise.

Looking at the offense specifically, who do you think are the building blocks? They're like, this guy's going to be on the roster three years from now. Zach Wilson, you hope. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. Yeah, you hope that one. But I would say Elijah Vera Tucker, absolutely. I think he's one of those players.

Elijah Moore, I think is one of those players. I think Mike Carter is one of those players. Is that where it ends? The Jets would like to include McKay Bechtin and that, but I mean, they need to see more from it. It's an effort thing. It's not, it's all between the ears with him. You know, it's effort.

It's hard. Do you want to be a football player or do you want to be a starting great football player? And if he wants to be great, he's going to put in the work and he's going to come out and play it. Because talent-wise, I mean, he's got all world talent. It's just got to put the work in. And he didn't do that his first two years. That's just a fact. He did not put the work in his first two years.

And that's why he struggled the way that he did. So now he's got to put the work. And if he does, yeah, he's a building block player. And from there, you kind of branch out. Corey Davis, maybe, I would think, but I don't even loop him in there. I'd probably say it's Zach. It's Elijah Vera Tucker. And then it's Elijah Moore and Michael Carter.

I think that's probably where it stops. Same exercise on defense. that's a harder one. Quinn and Williams, Carl Lawson, are probably two that the Jets believe in, and then Quincy Williams. I would actually loop in there as well. I think Quincy Williams is a really good player. And then CJ Mosley, it's just a matter of how long is he going to go.

He's getting up there in age now a little bit. Safeties, though, are awash. Corners, I think are awash. The rest of John Franklin Myers, maybe two, so you can loop in. I think he's a good player. I think he's great. So there's a lot of work.

There's a lot of work they got to do. The reason I present it that way is that when you talk about it in those terms, anything is on the table. Correct. With the 50-ish million dollars in cap space, whatever, all of these picks. I mean, they have four top 40 picks, correct? I think their fourth pick is 38th overall. So, I mean, they could go in so many different directions.

I think that's important. This time of year, it's some attempting to be like, oh, we need this very specific thing. We need this other very specific thing. In actuality, they need everything. And that's okay. Yes. So the other thing I really wanted to ask you about, the Zach Wilson plan last year, obviously what happens with Greg Knapp is no one can.

Yeah, yeah, correct. It's tragic. There's nothing you can do to account for that. And when you don't have that voice in the room, it just always felt like he was going to be behind the eight ball when it came to his development and his support system. What have they said about how they're going to go about it this year? Am I like quarterback room?

Yeah. There were more coaches than quarterbacks. Yes. How they're going to kind of build up the way that they're going to raise him. Because I think that should be a consideration for a guy like that. It's been simplified significantly. So last year, the original plan last year was that you have Zach Wilson, you bring in the veteran, quarterback behind him.

Then you have Mike LaFleurre, who's a first time offensive coordinator, Rob Calabrese, first time quarterback's coach, and then you have Greg Knapp. And Greg Knapp is going to be the sounding board, who's been the quarterback coach, been the offensive coordinator, and he's going to, for a year, two years, show and be a sounding board for Mike, and show and be a sounding board for Rob, and show and be a sounding board for Zach. I mean, if you watched any of the Jets organized team activities and mini-camp practices, you could not see Zach Wilson without Greg Knapp.

Greg Knapp was in his pocket, and he was a huge part of this plan. When he tragically passed away, suddenly you had rookie quarterback, rookie offensive coordinator, rookie quarterback's coach. So they brought in Kavanaugh and Kavanaugh kind of stabilized things, but it just ended up never being the situation that they envisioned or that they created. I mean, this was one where when Mike LaFleur got the office coordinator job, Matt Ryan called him and said, if I was a rookie and I could have one person help me and help me be a better quarterback knowing what I know now, it would be Greg Knapp. Greg Knapp would be it. And LaFleur said, LeFloor didn't know Greg NAP before. There was no, like Michael, Mike LaFlor and Greg did not know each other beforehand. They knew of each other. They knew of each other. Some shared schematic DNA, right? I mean, Greg has worked for Gary Kubiak and like so there's a familiarity. But they didn't know each other. Yeah. But it was the call from Matt Ryan, the Mike Nussie.

Michael Flore was like, let's do it. He's my guy. Let's bring him. He'll be, he'll bring him in and have him help. That obviously went the way that it did. He tragically passes away. They bring in Kavanaugh to try to be like the same voice. I mean, Cavanaugh is not Greg Knapp. Like it didn't really work. And you're doing it in August. I mean, you got the entire time together. I mean, the plan is you're bringing someone into it midstream.

It's difficult. And then midseason they bring in John Beck. And it's like they wanted, I get why they brought in John Beck. It was like, look, Zach's going to go home and train with him. So now let's bring him in, at least show him. him why we run our offense the way, what we want Zach to do. So it's not, when Zach goes back to train with him and Zach says, this is what they want me to work on, it's not lost in translation.

It's, okay, Beck just got it from the Jets coaches. Worked with on the sideline, now let's go. But that was never a plan to long-term be the answer. It was never going to long-term look like that. So the Jets plan was be, let's simplify it. Mike LaFleur is now the head main voice in Zach's ear and the offensive coordinator. Rob Calabrese is now stepping up. The only other guy they're going to add as a quality control coach at some point.

point to try to hopefully create this pipeline where if the floor gets a head job, Calibreys goes to Offensic Court, quality control code, like kind of start creating that pipeline. But it's going to be significantly simplified. Beck's not coming back. Cavanaugh's not coming back. The Jets are now going to have a very normal structure of offensive coordinator, quarterback's coach, and those are the only ones in Zach Wilson's here. Hopefully it helps. Those little flashes from Zach Wilson near the end of last season where you see some progress, what specifically do you think that they're latching onto if they're trying to build the case for optimism. I know Joe just talked to us about avoiding the

turnovers and things like that, but there's really no point in sugarcoding it. I mean, he has to get better. Like, you look at, and I know Jet fans don't necessarily want to hear it. I know they're very protective over him, you know, because they realize that if Zach doesn't work, they're starting from scratch. Joe's gone, Rob's gone, Mike's gone, everyone's gone.

So they're going to start from scratch. So they like his playmaking ability. They like his moxie. They like him as a person. They like him as a leader. They like his talent. But you can point to, okay, he didn't throw as many interceptions at the end.

You can point to that, you know, he never got totally rattled when he had to play with fourth, fifth, and six stringers. You can point to all that stuff. But really grasping hard at straws here.

Seriously, though. I mean, you look at his numbers, though, man, they're bad. They're really, really bad. So the Jets still believe in him. They're not given up on him. In no way, state reform.

But they realize, and they've let him know. I mean, they have been very blunt with him. He needs to get a lot better, period. He needs to get a lot better in a lot of different areas. He's got to get better with the playbook. He's got to get better with his footwork.

He's got to get better with his mechanics. He's got to get better with understanding with the defense to give them. And look, he came from BYU. We didn't play big time football. It's like he was at the SEC and things or playing in the SEC and stuff. But they know he's got to get better. They've let Zach know he's got to get better. And if you want to pinpoint that, like, I hate doing it.

Like, I hate saying like, oh, this little thing is what he did well. That's why, no, like, just stop it. Like, look at what Joe Burrow did as a rookie year. Look what Herbert did as a rookie. Look what any of the even go, Daniel Jones' his rookie season. All of them showed more than what Zach Wilson did. Sam Darnold, his rookie year, showed more than what Zach Wilson did.

Zach needs to get better. I think he will, but he has to get better if the Jets want to do anything next year. And it's in every area. The last thing I wanted to ask you, the Jets coached Senior Bowl. Yeah. You were down there. What is the thing that you probably picked up on that week being around them that maybe you wouldn't in your day-to-day rhythms with them?

Something you learned about the staff, their approach, the way they see things, just with that proximity. I genuinely came away for, so this is my, how many stabs have I seen? So I saw the last year of Rex, which was a disaster. Then I saw Todd Bowles and then I saw Adam Gase. And then now this staff. This is the first time seeing top to bottom,

sitting in with some of those guys, seeing the way that they work, seeing the way they run things, observing their meetings, like stuff like that, where I looked across the board top to bottom and was like, I think that's a future defensive coordinator. I think that's a future offensive coordinator.

I think that's a future head coach. I don't think at any point in time whether it was, I cancel out rec, I really only got the tail end. At no point in time in Todd Bowles' tenure, did I look at anyone else on that staff and say, like, wow, there's a pipeline where people are going to start to pick from them. At no point during Adam Gase's tenure was I like, oh, someone's going to hire him away the Jets are going to need to replace him.

I looked at Rob Calabrese and was like, seeing the way that he worked with the quarterbacks and said, that guy's going to be an offensive coordinator. I looked at Mike LaFleormac, that guy's going to be a head coach. I looked at Whitcott and the Jets' defensive line coach and said, that guy's going to be a defensive coordinator. You know, I looked at Nate Olly, the assistant D-Line coach, was like, that guy's going to be a DC too.

Like, you could see it across the board that there are just a number of people within this building, within this staff that have a future in the league that are young, they're growing, they're developing, but this is a step on their resume. They're going to get better. And the Jets, if things go well, if Zach Wilson, develops and he is a franchise quarterback, you'll have people picking this roster. And more so, if Jets want optimism, you want hope, I genuinely believe that this coaching staff is one that is legitimate, that this coaching staff is one that is good, that Sala has put together

a legitimate staff to work with and develop players. Unfortunately, the way the NFL works is that it all hinges on the kid under center. And if he's good, it's all going to look good. But if he's bad, it's back to square one. And I also think that even beyond the quarterback, when you look at just the underlying talent on the roster. It was a talent issue. It's,

it is a pretty dramatic shortage of. I mean, you worded it where who are the players are going to be on the roster for the three ways. The way that I looked at throughout the season,

I was like, find me on defense, someone who's starting for one of the contending teams, one of the teams that's in the playoffs. And the only one you could pick to was CJ Mosley. That's the only one you could say, oh, he's a starting.

Who's what, 32 years old? Yeah, who's going to start it lineback. On offense, you can find, like, Elijah Moore would be like the third receiver, fourth receiver. Mike Carter would probably be a rotational running back for somebody

but find me the other player that that is a starter on the playoff team. They're not there and the Jets need to go get and they realize, I mean, they're going into this offseason with a list of what they got to have. And at the end of the day, this is not a successful offseason. If after free agency and after the draft and after they make a few trades because they're going to, they don't come away with a wide receiver one, a cornerback one, a tight end, a right guard and interior defensive line helping a pass rusher. If they don't come away with those things,

this is going to be another four or five-win football team. and we're going to be having a real interesting discussion and if the Jets should pull the plug on someone after the year. So they realize that though, they know that and the positive that all these draft picks and all this money and the assets they can trade for is that they do have the means to fill all of those holes between these two,

three means and between draft free agency and trading. Where, if you had a gut feeling, does that wide receiver come from? Is that a free agency thing? I think they're going to trade for one. I genuinely believe it, yeah, because I... Calvin Ridley-esque type thing? Yes, yeah. Yeah, Calvin Ridley be the one.

I mean, look, I say Ridley and when I say, you know, the trade form. My assumption with that is that you do your homework on him and you are not concerned with the mental health and you're not concerned with any of the, I mean, because as soon as you have one, you do all your homework and you have one issue with that, there is no trade that's taking place. Because the way that it looks,

and I talked to both Rob and Joe about this today and just ask them questions about it is that you need to play the game of you want to make Zach Wilson better, right? You want to surround him with talent. You have all these draft picks. Those draft picks aren't walking into the building as proven players. They're assets. It's a way to

your roster, however you want to ultimately deploy them. But you want to make Zach Wilson better now. You can draft the receiver. The receiver is not going to be a number one receiver, a true well-dult number receiver for three years. So you want a number one receiver, you go on, you trade from one. And if it means giving up a second-round pick, you've got another one. It means giving them a third-round pick.

Go ahead. You can trade back and get another one. Like make that play, get the receiver that you know is number one. It makes Corey Davis and Elijah more better. It makes Zach Wilson better. It makes the offensive line better. It makes the running game better. So it's, for me, that wide receiver, it's a big one.

They want the X. and I think if they check the boxes on Ridley, I think they'll be on that one. The 38th pick for Calvin Ridley, and now you have Elijah Moore, Calvin Ridley. Pretty good receiving, Corrie Davis. Yeah. David Njoku?

Yeah, tight end. Yeah, tight end, movie one. I think that's one that's coming free agency in the draft. I think it'll, because I don't think Schultz is, I heard Schultz wants like 13 million, like something like that of year. And I was like, holy cow, that's a lot of money. It's like, that's, for a guy who's like solid. Like, the Jets, that's not going to be something the Jets go out and do.

So the Joku, I think, is one that they could go after. Maybe OJ Howard. Jazeki, I think, is too much a receiver. And the Shanahan offense and LaFloor offense's favor, like real tight ends, like actual tight ends. Joku's done a lot of blocking. Yeah. He's a lot of blocking in Cleveland.

So he's very familiar with that. Draft on those guys that were to McBride or whatever, those guys that they saw, the kid from Ohio State, the guys that they saw firsthand of the senior ball. I think they'll draft one of them and they'll sign one in free agency. I cannot wait to talk myself into the Jets supporting cast on August 15th or whatever day. Might, man. I roll through Floom Park.

I think so. I mean, look, it's right now, it's so easy to pick and choose and stuff. But like I genuinely do believe that between the assets that they have, like I said, draft agency and trade market, I do believe they can get themselves to a point where December starts. And we're doing this show. We're doing the podcast for the Can't Way podcast. I'm writing stories where I'm playing the math game of if this team loses and this team wins and the Jets are able to win these games, they got a chance to make the wild card.

Like if they play their cards right this offseason, they can position themselves. to that point, assuming Zach Wilson takes a step. We can be having that conversation in December of next year. Will we? You can't miss. You can't strike out. You don't have the luxury of missing at all. You've got to make all of the right picks in the draft. You have to make all the right free agent signings. You need to stay healthy. But if they do those things, and it's a big if, they're absolutely a team that can get to the point where maybe it's seven or eight wins they got next year. It's a huge step forward.

Yeah. And then a ball bounces one way or another way, and maybe they're at nine. And then suddenly, the only cow, what's going on? I mean, you've seen turnarounds happening in the NFL. And between the assets that the Jets have, they have the. They have the means to do it. They just, they have to do it. They have to have 2021 again, because if they have 2020,

we're going to be sitting here talking about, should Joe Douglas be back? Should Robert Salo be back? Who's going to be the next head coach? You're on your next step. Yeah. Just run it back. Connor Hughes, thank you very much for the time. My friend.

This was great. Always good to chat with you. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you guys having me on. Talk to you soon. All right. It's time now to dig into our conversation with our bucks writer at the athletic, Greg, thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

I really appreciate it. Thank you. It seems like just yesterday it was training camp and you were here. We were sitting in a trailer. The hottest I have ever been in my entire life was that day in Tampa. We're in an air condition trailer, which is the only place we could safely do the podcast. That's right. Several degrees ago, absolutely.

Good to see you. Thanks for having me on. It's great to see all of you guys. It's great to do these in person. I've been having a fantastic time. I did not expect the Bucks to be part of this conversation as we dig into the most interesting teams of the 2022 off season. That starts with the Tom Brady retirement, which it makes sense, but it still is surprising just based on the way he played last season. That's what got me. Yeah, to see him

lead the NFL in passing yards and touchdowns. And earn it. I mean, not just volume-based stats. I played at an all pro level the entire season. Could have been the MVP of the league. Had like multiple late game winning throws and passes and drives and comebacks. Yeah, played it, like you said, could it easily? I mean, Aaron Rogers or certainly. did things to deserve it, but you could have made a really good case for MVP at 44. And then to lose kind of as hard as they did, coming back from 24 down and then losing the last minute at the Rams, it didn't feel like the way he would want to go out. So I was surprised to that extent. So we're going to get into sort of the choices that this team has to make

as it relates to the rest of the roster. But let's start with the quarterback, because the reason that they're here, the reason we're talking about the bucks right now, is that they are in the quarterback market. They were on the quarterback carousel in a way that we did not anticipate. And they're a little bit different than some of the other teams that are on there, right? We just talked with Ben Standing earlier on this show about Washington. Washington can go the route of, you know, we're going to draft somebody at 11. We're going to bring in a stopgap Trubisky. And with their timeline as a franchise, you can talk yourself into that.

They're probably a couple years away anyway. The Bucks spent all of last season extending themselves financially to bring back an entire Super Bowl winning roster to maximize the window of a 44-year-old quarterback. A lot of that roster still exists. So it's harder to say, oh, we'll slow play this thing, right? We'll bring Kyle Trask along, whatever pace we need to bring him along. They seem like a candidate to go out and make some sort of aggressive choice at quarterback to maximize the roster they currently have. So if you're looking at the landscape of the position and the options that could be available to them, what feels like the most realistic choice to you?

Most realistic is not what people want to hear because if people all are, again, the last time they went to get a quarterback, they got Tom Brady. So they want to trade. Are they not going to get the greatest quarterback of all time around? It could fall short of that. So what you see is a lot of people that want Aaron Rogers and one Russell Wilson or in the least to Sean Watson and all that comes with him. And yeah, more realistically, because this is a team, the cool thing is when they got Tom Brady, they didn't have to give anything up to get him. And they also got him remarkably cheap by greatest quarterback ever standards. Or MVP caliber quarterback standards.

Right. So it's going to be different now. in that if they get a quarterback like him, if there's quarterbacks like him, they're going to have to give up draft picks to get them. And they're going to have to pay them much more than they had to pay Tom Brady, which means that instead of like the new quarterback inheriting that Super Team that Tom Brady had, they're going to have to give up multiple starters by letting him go in free agency just to finance the quarterback you're getting. So I really don't think that's the plan. It could happen. They could be all smoke and mirrors right now and they go and they trade for Russell Wilson and give up however many first rounders and change. that takes. But I think it's much more likely a low-key upgrade where they know they have a good

team that needs a better quarterback. And that could be, there's so many underwhelming names like Teddy Bridgewater or Carson Wins, if the Colts cut him loose, that aren't exciting, but they're better than what they have in house in terms of this year and what they could do. What about the Jimmy Garoppelos of the world? I get the sense that he isn't necessarily the best fit in terms of his strengths and what Bruce looks for for a quarterback. I think that's completely fair. And it doesn't, it would be the best name you could get reasonably inexpensively, but I don't think it's a personality match. I don't think it's a, everybody's like, well, you trade Brady's

rights for Gropola, and then you guys both, you know, solve, I don't see it. It could happen. He'll certainly go to a team and will be more reasonably priced than Rogers, Wilson, Watson, all these really top-of-the-line acquisitions you could have at quarterback. What about Kyle Trask? I mean, this is a guy they spent a second round pick on. It's not as if he was a throw-in, let's draft him in the fourth developmental prospect backup sort of guy. Yeah, and it's interesting. Kyle Trask would be the one that people aren't talking about right now.

And that's funny. People are talking about Blaine Gabbard seriously more than Kyle Trask right now. It's in the year of our Lord 2022. It is. Kyle Trask, to his credit, Tile Trask's M.O. is to go to a place and not be a starter and not be a factor at all. and then become a star. It's what he did.

He didn't start in high school. He went to Florida and barely threw a pass for three years and then was a great player in the SEC for two years. So this is what he does. So as much as people like, you didn't play a snap all year, that was the plan. That was kind of from the start, sit behind Brady, watch and learn, soak it in.

And then from there, I don't know if they had in mind him stepping in as a Tom Brady heir or Tom Brady successor in year two, but he could do that. If they didn't go out and get a big quarterback, it serves them much better to find out who he is this fall than to probably dance with Gabbard and see what he has in year 12. Are they trying to sell the Gabbard route, though? Right now they are. Yes, I would say that.

That would be discouraging to me if I were a fan of this team. In terms of things that are hard to buy as a fan when you just had two years of Tom Brady and thought you might have a third, yes. And Gabbard, the best thing you can say about Blaine Gabbard is that he's been in this offense for four years and knows it well. the problem is that it's still Blaine Cabbert. And statistically, you're going from one of the best quarterbacks in NFL history to literally one of the worst. 13 and 35 as a starter. The worst quarterback rating of any active quarterback with 50 touchdowns. And hasn't really played a relevant snap since like 2017.

I would love for someone in my life to look at me the way that Bruce Ariens looks at playing Cabber. Right. Yes. Again. And it's for years. This goes back to Arizona. This is not a recent development. Absolutely.

And it's, you want. wonder, like, if you're Bruce Ariens, two-time NFL coach of the year, just won a Super Bowl 13 months ago, is choosing to coach at age 70 this fall, do you do that with a year that if you don't get it right? If you try to defend a division title with Blaine Gabbard as your quarterback, and it fails miserably, that kind of throws off his finish, his legacy, instead of being the guy who ended with Brady in a Super Bowl and a division title, and it's like, I don't know, I didn't really have a quarterbackies last year. So talking about just the overall tenor of the building right now and what's going on,

should I be worried about something like the Ali Marpet retirement? Or do you think that is something that says more about Al-A-Marpet than it does about the situation that's currently existing in Tampa? Yeah, I don't think it's a panic thing. I think it, there's some people like, oh, this is why Brady retired. And it might be that this is emblematic of the tipping point you have without Brady. wherein he gave everyone a reason to come to Tampa, to stay in Tampa, to take less, to play in Tampa. His absence creates the opposite in which you're like all these phrases, Chris Godwin,

who everyone associates with Tampa and expects to be in Tampa, he has a fair right to say, who's going to be the quarterback this fall? I've had, you know, at least James Winston throwing to me and Tom Brady throwing to me. If he's going to be a free agent, he's going to get paid at a high level. The money will be there for him, whether he's in Tampa. But I think there's some right for him to say, I'm used to play. with a high level of passers throwing to me, who's it going to be? And that's also true for Ryan Jensen and Alex Kappa and even these defensive free agents who don't know,

you know, this was a team that won a division title and will have the same high expectations of winning what will be a bad NFC South this fall. But again, they have a right to wonder who's leading them in that. It's funny that all of the analogies that my brain is going to are nautical, sinking ship. There's a movie going on. Everything pirate related is somehow coming to mind here as I talk about the bucks. So let's talk about the free agents. And I want you to do as best as you can here.

If you were power ranking them in terms of the priority in the building in Tampa and who they wanted back, who they were willing to spend to do it, how would you stack it all up? Godwin is first. Even though he has a torn ACL, they love him, they love everything he does for the offense. I think they'll do it. Also, like an all-time, like building block for your franchise type person. Yeah, I mean, if Mike Evans wasn't there, you'd say he's... It's a good point.

They have two of them. Yes. To have two non-Diva receivers is so rare, and I think they appreciate that. And Chris is every bit the off-field great guy that Mike Evans is. So like I said, even if it's $18 million a year for a guy coming off of ACL-Surgery, I think they do that. I think he's the priority, even though they're already playing Mike Evans well. Next, I take Carlton Davis. I think to get young corners you know can really neutralize your opponent's best receiver is rare.

Very rarely does a player like that at Free agency. Very rarely. So he could be a franchise tag, I think. I don't know if he's willing to lock himself into Tampa, but I think at the minimum, I think he's a franchise guy. And then next, there's a bit of a drop off after those two. Ryan Jensen, I would have said, would have been a huge priority if Brady was back. I don't know if there's that same commitment.

Why do you think that plays in the dynamic? I think if you had Brady coming back for his 23rd year at age 45, I think it would be a lot to be like, hey, how about we're breaking a new center? Yeah. So I really think that that would have been in the very minimum, the ask that Brady could have had was, I'd like to have this guy back.

Is the idea that Hainesie could be an heir apparent there? Hainesie could be. Hainz was a third-round pick out of Notre Dame. Again, like Trax barely played all year. And hasn't been a center. It had never played center before this year. So it would definitely be uncertainty. You're going from a Pro Bowl,

maybe one of the best centers in the NFL, to a guy who's barely snapped in an NFL game. So that would be. significantly different. What complicates it is now you could have that guy completely untested with two new and untested guards around him. And a new untested quarterback potentially. Right.

Instead of the middle of your offense being a really strong part, it's now completely unknown. And that might impact it because it's like you're going to have to overpay to keep Alex Kappa now. Before, if you only needed one guard, you might have gotten away with it. Those guys will both be expensive. Some of these projections for Alex Kappa have him getting pretty much Alimarp money, like five years, $54 million for a guy that was the worst offensive guy, offensive lineman on his line last year.

And it was a good offensive line, but he wasn't a pro bowl lever or near a pro bowl level. I have a question for you. Is that projection from Alex Kappa the agent? I don't. It might have been. No, this was like pro football focus or spot track or one of the two. I had thought of Kappa as like a three-year $20 million guy, like $6 million a year, $7 million a year.

My concern with him getting that sort of money, and we're going down a rabbit hole. It's probably necessary here is that there's a glut at that position. Even talking to coaches today, a coach today that's in the market for free agent offensive line where we're talking about the guys who might be around if you need one, there are a lot of $6 million guards available right now. And that's why it just feels like breaking the bank for Alex Capo when you could have Lake and Tomlinson or James Daniels or whoever ends up filling those spots. That just seems a little farfetched to me.

Yes, I would agree. That seems like top 10 guard kind of money, and I don't think he is that player. And so let's keep going on the list here. It's a long list. Yes, you go, all right, we've said Godwin, Davis, Jensen, Kappa, Leonard Fornett is a free agent. Jordan Whitehead, who's probably, I mean, their most versatile safety, probably. It was really big for them in the playoffs. Gaming out against Philly was ridiculous. Right. Came out from the very start and made multiple plays, tackles for loss. Safety is a huge position in Todd Bulls defense.

and he does everything they want their safeties to do. But again, if he's $6, $7 million, that's great. If he's more, that becomes a problem for this team in their salary cap. Jason Pyr-Paul is a free agent who says he wants to play. And Domic and Sue is a free agent who wants to play. You know, the peripheral offensive talent like Ronald Jones and O.J. Howard and Breshad Pairman and all these types are all free agents. It's like 23 deep. And they're not all necessary, but they're going to have to rely on rookies.

and younger guys, again, last year was kind of famously everybody back, this will not be that case. So let's play this out one star further. Let's just say Godwin does come back. Carlton Davis is back on the franchise tag. This is a team that does trot Blaine Gabbard out, a quarterback. They win six to seven games. Let's say seven games. Let's be optimistic about the other talent that's lining the roster.

Bruce is looking at this. You know, Carlton Davis then is going to walk. You have a team that's okay but not great. He's pushing 70. This isn't really what he signed up for necessarily. What does the next stage of this look like? Is this a scenario where Byron Lefich is a potential successor and they let that guide the next era of this team? Because it's really, the reason that they're fascinating to me is that a year ago, there was no team that was more certain than the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

We knew exactly what they were. Now, I don't really know what they are. And that goes for the present, but it also goes for whatever the three-year plan might look like. Right. And especially, like, offensively, I mean, so much of this team and this identity was their offense, the people they don't know if they have an offense are actually better than everybody they have back. Because everybody they have back is, again, Gabbard and Trask and Kishon Vaughn. Mike Evans, don't get me wrong, is there.

Tristan Worf's there. But there's so much uncertainty. What's curious is that there's been this. perception ever since the Super Bowl that they've done so well and they've had such success that obviously whenever Bruce leaves, they'll be able to handpick Left Witch or Todd Bowles or one of his longtime assistants as the handpick successor. And what I don't know is, is there a scenario where they go off the rails so badly, again, six and 11, seven and 10 or worse for some people, that they don't want to promote in-house. And when Bruce retires, they might look outside. Obviously,

coaches, the same coaches that won them a Super Bowl. But if the team has taken such a step back and the foundation isn't what it was even this past year, they still have, I think it's six pro bowlers under contract. It's a good team. It's a good team. And we can't overstate, I don't want to take it too far that way. This is still a good team with a lot of talent. Right. Yeah. And to me, if they have even a modest upgraded quarterback, you know, again, Bridgewater or someone like that, it doesn't take that much to win the NFC South with a 10 and 7 team. year. That's why it's just really hard for me to imagine them going with Blaine Gabbard or Kalatrasker, some combination of those two guys. Because the rest of the roster is good enough to win right now. Right. And so many of these people came in either in the Brady era or with the expectations of winning that to trot out a team that has Blaine Gabbard as your quarterback would seem like something of a betrayal to those guys on that team that signed on for something else. That's why I know it's maybe pie in the sky type stuff. But if you're looking at it and it's a matter of price with some of these quarterbacks, whether it's the Sean

Watson, whether it's Russell Wilson, it'd be tempting to me. Well, and the other thing for me is that that's why I'm not an NFL general manager. What's in meaning to me is that everyone thinks of first round draft picks as being a single currency, like, oh, three number ones, again, if you're the box and if you, they're picking 27th this year, and if they get a Russell Wilson or an Aaron Rogers, they'll probably be picking somewhere comparable. So three number ones, you would even have a single top 20 pick in that, you know? I don't even know if that's enticing a package for a team like Green Bay or Seattle that's looking to replace

an iconic tenure quarterback or more. So I don't even know that they have the arsenal to get what they want unless they throw on one of the really stud young players with draft picks, and I don't think they'll do that either. This is a very strange place to be. It is not somewhere I expected to be

in early March when talking about this team. It just felt like they would do everything they could to keep the core together. We would have Brady back this year. They would be a contender again. Maybe a little bit better health luck than they had at the end of last season. and they would be relevant for as long as he was there. He's not there anymore, and their relevance is a very different flavor than I expected it to be.

It really is. It's like, I don't know quite the band parallel to make, but like when a band loses its lead singer and tries to continue existing, this isn't, you know, David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar here, but it's tough to replace the guy that you, you know, were known as being the leader of a group. Well, it's interesting because I think that this was a good team before Tom Brady got there, right? The underlying talent on this team was really good. They had done a good job of building up the infrastructure, and they dropped him in, and that was all they needed to be a Super Bowl team. Now, the team is two years older.

The team is two years more expensive. A lot of the reasons you could build that team is because you had Chris Godwin on a rookie contract. You had Shaq Barrett on a one-year deal before he had to get an extension. You had Carlton Davis on a rookie deal. This is what happens in the NFL. And time marches on, and eventually the bill comes due, and when you have that combined with removing Tom Brady from the equation, now you have what is happening to a team that has a 70-year-old head coach

who I don't think is long for this, if I were making a guess. All those things that worked in their favor are the bills are coming in. And again, B. DeVeia, not crazy and expensive. Now he's a $15 million, $15 million detackle. All those young DBs that were not even a million dollars on the cap are all going to be collecting checks, if not this year or next year. And that makes it really hard to keep things together. going to have to hope that their 1920, 21, 22 draft can give the depth that 18 did and created,

you know, the foundation for everything that was around Brady when they won just, again, barely a year ago. Yeah, it'll be fun. This off, this spring, this next month is the complete opposite of what last year was when it was just reupping with everyone and bringing everyone back. It happens fast. It does. Life hits you fast. Here we are. Greg Alman. Thank you very. much, my friend. Always great to chat with you. Appreciate the time. We'll catch up soon for sure. Good to see you here in person, man. Thanks again for having me. Thank you to Connor. Thank you to Greg. Thank you to Ben Standing. Great to chat with all of them. We're going to be doing the same thing. Again, tomorrow. We're going to have three of our writers on, digging into some of the most interesting teams as we see them heading into the 2022 off season.

As always, guys, really appreciate you listening. Please subscribe to the athletic if you have not. We have so much stuff coming out from the combine all offseason. This is the right time to grab a subscription of you do not have one. Athletic.com slash football show, a dollar a month for the first six months. Now is the time to get one if you do not have one. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I really appreciate that. It would mean a lot to me personally.

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