The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Creating alignment between the front office & coaching staff with Marvin Lewis + dissecting the 2022 CB class with Fran Duffy

Episode Date: April 19, 2022

Former NFL head coach Marvin Lewis sits down with Robert Mays to talk about creating alignment between the front office and coaching staff during the draft process. They discuss Lewis’ experiences in Cincinnati, the importance of communication and working through disagreements. Then, Eagles & NFL analyst Fran Duffy joins the show to break down the 2022 CB class. Fran explains the traits he’s most excited/worried about and the scheme he believes is best for players like Sauce Gardner, Derek Stingley Jr., Andrew Booth Jr., Trent McDuffie and more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Tuesday, April 19th. Great show for you guys today. A little bit later, Fran Duffy, who does X's and O's work for the Eagles, is going to be joining us to chat about the corners in this year's draft. We're going to talk about some highs, some lows, potential fits for all of those guys. Really intriguing class.

Enjoyed our conversation with Fran. Before we get to that, though, we talk a lot on this show about the idea of alignment when it comes to front offices and the coaching staffs and how you create that alignment and dialogue between those two sides of the buildings as you get into these processes, into the free agency process, into the draft, into the team building aspect of who you are as a franchise. And to dig a little bit further into that, I wanted to talk to somebody who's pretty familiar with it. And that's Marvin Lewis, who's a long time head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals, really enjoyed our chat with Marvin. Let's get to it. I am thrilled now to welcome

long time NFL head coach, head coach who was with the Cincinnati Bengals for a number of years. And I think is a great person to have this conversation with. Marvin Lewis, Marvin, thank you very much for joining us today. Hi, Rob. You're my pleasure.

Really excited about this. It would be fun. So we talk a lot on this show just about the idea of alignment in the team building process and how you create alignment between the front office and the coaching staff. And it kind of creates like an organizational synergy where everyone's moving in the same direction. And I wanted to talk about that process with someone who has had a huge hand in it over several drafts a long time in that role. And I figured you would be a great person to discuss this with. I want to start right at the beginning because you were hired in January of 2003 by a team that had the number one pick in the draft.

And that's a long time ago. But I'm wondering, what are those initial conversations when you get hired on January 14th and the draft is in three months and you have the number one pick? how fast and how quickly do you have to try to get on the same page when the scouting staff, I'm sure, is way far down the road with this class, these players. How do you kind of jump start that conversation as a first time head coach? Well, it is. It's a process that like you said, you know, when I received the job in Cincinnati, they had earned the first pick in the draft, which is really not the place you want to start out. But unfortunately, when those jobs come open, you're usually picking in the top five or six. But the thing, ironically, I was at the senior bowl when I accepted the job, and Carson Palmer was actually in Mobile playing in the game.

So I actually sat with the Brown family at an afternoon practice after they had offered me the job. And before it was officially announced and kind of watched Carson and watched their, thoughts, you know, otherwise, because otherwise, I probably wouldn't have paid much attention that Carson Palmer at the senior bowl in the position I was coming in is the Redskins defensive coordinator. How far down the road? I mean, obviously, when you have the number one pick in a draft where there is a blue chip quarterback and like almost a hilariously blue chip quarterback, like 6.5, 230.

I mean, just the platonic idea. Yeah, 465, which people forget. I mean, the ultimate number one prospect, I'm sure it doesn't. doesn't take much coaxing, but how much momentum was there already for him to be the number one pick when they knew they were getting it? Literally, there was a lot of momentum already in the building, particularly from the current players. To a man, they came into my office tomorrow. We don't need another quarterback. Kids are quarterback. You know, we don't, John's our quarterback. We don't need another one, you know, and that was, that was, you know, from the guys that were

veteran players and so forth. But like you said, there was hands down the most value, the great player, number one picking the draft was Carson Palmer. And literally Carson visited the week or so before the draft. We brought him back to Cincinnati and we visited. And after I had a mini camp, and after practice that Saturday, we were walking across the street from practice, he and I, and I told him, you know, you're going to be our number one pick, and you and I are going to be joined at the hip, so we've got to make this thing work. And it was just a great thing for me, him, his wife, family, and so forth.

That process, again, it happens quickly. How do you, if there is some momentum, I'm already building for him to be the guy, what's the process of getting your offensive coordinator, your quarterback coach, comfortable with that? Is that something where you guys will have a pretty defined, intentional meeting with the front office? Is it something that you communicate to them? What does that communication process look like? Well, the process was all in cups and everybody was involved. Okay. You know, the way Mike Brown and his staff and family ran things there, they gave the

coaches a voice and they had an opportunity to their peace. And that was part of it. But at the end of the process, there was four of us that did take a trip back to Southern California again. and do a personal workout with Carson after we had already been to the official workout at USC. And we just stood on the sideline in Marvel. And we actually, that was my first introduction to T.J. Hussman Zata. We were able to take, we took receivers, our receivers, to be part of the workout for Carson to throw to. And so it was great. And, you know, he didn't disappoint. Let's just say that.

So I want to be asking the right questions here as we dig through some of this. And I want to go off of the best information possible. And I want to ask you, where would you say at what point during your tenure there? Did you guys land on the process, the conversations, the way that you communicated with the coaching staff that would resemble the way it was when it was over? Like at what point during your 15 years did it the final version of it kind of come into, did it crystallize a little bit? probably after sometime in 06 after the 05 draft. Okay. And 06-07, we ended up in the 05 draft taking a couple of players that had questionable history.

And we really came to the fact that, you know what, there's a lot of good players in the draft. Let's make sure we draft the right ones. let's not get pushed by ability and so forth. Let's just make sure we continue to really hold character higher up and how important that is as far as being able to have a player that you have access, you have access to that he's there for you day in and day out and how important that is and not waste a lot of manpower and hours on trying to change somebody's habits. what was the process between how you guys as a coaching staff communicated to the front office and the scouting staff what traits you wanted for individual players at individual positions that is something that happened annually was it an ongoing thing was there actual meetings built into place i'm always wondering what that dialogue looks like in different buildings

yeah i think as as duke tobin began to take over and and do more part of be more part of the the final draft process is Duke making sure that the coaches and the scouts all got on the same page, that we saw people kind of the same way. And if we went into the room and we had some disagreements, sit down and watch some take together and let everybody express their thoughts. And even, you know, did that occasionally. We would ask one of the scouts to come down with the defensive or offensive coaches

and express their thoughts why they thought, yay or nay, about a certain prospect. And, you know, so that we all could understand and everybody could speak freely about what they thought, you know. Playing in that division that I coached in Cincinnati, we had to have people of certain body types because we were going to play big physical football teams in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Cleveland. So we had to have a special kind of player in order to play football in that division, have a chance to be successful. When did Duke kind of come into that role fully where he was really overseeing it?

and you guys were working in tandem together like that? Probably through the lockout period. Okay. Through the 2011 draft, you know, right there, 10-11 and so forth. You know, because we kind of had a restart and everything with Andy and AJ. And then I would say probably through that time period, I think Duke, again, Mr. Brown's confidence in him grew and the ability for him to really give Duke. Duke more and more responsibility with what went on in the draft.

I know it was a long time ago now, but how different was the way it worked in Cincinnati from a place like Baltimore as far as the input the coaches had in the process, the size of the scouting staff? I know that Cincinnati is kind of its own unique little operation over there. So I'm wondering how different and how stark the differences actually were. Well, from the time I started in 2003, you know, it made a lot of changes to how things were done in Cincinnati so that we could mirror more Pittsburgh and Baltimore what I was comfortable with. And frankly, Duke was able to shape that whole department the way he felt comfortable with it.

And he likes having the number of people that he has involved that way. And that was good with Mr. Brown. So, but we did. We changed things as we went. The coaches weren't as involved as they had been in the past prior to me as far as being responsible for their position that we we do and i tried to settle on so many guys per position that we wanted the coaches to have hands-on access to and have a chance to get to know better and better so uh and that was we tried to go through that process and then uh kind of assigned the coaches

uh work in their their evaluation work with the college draft and the college input that way when did that happen at what point where the coaches started to get really involved in the process like in the calendar? Well, really right from from literally after we get through the end of free age, you know, you work on your own self and your own systems first. You work through free agency and evaluation of people that way. And then as you work into the NFL combine through the end of February 1st of March, and then you go through that process and then the college workouts begin thereafter the combine.

But we wanted to make sure that we split time and we didn't take time. from football in-house to, but yet we still had to get their evaluation done as far as preparation for the draft. I'm wondering when you have coaches kind of sift in and out of the building, a couple different ones really stand out to me. You mentioned that 2011 year. That was Jay Gruden's first year as the offensive coordinator there. Yes.

And then in 2008, I think it was the first year that Mike Zimmer was there and you guys also had a new linebackers coach that year and you took a linebacker in the top 10. So I'm wondering how quickly can a new coordinator or new position? position coach really put their stamp on a draft pick at that level of the draft in the first round in the top 10 how quickly can that happen where you're creating that dialogue yeah i think it can happen fairly quickly i think uh you know in both cases the coaches you mentioned uh they saw big picture and they understood the big picture and the ability to get in and kind of be uh evaluate hands on with those particular players in positions and

and feel good and solid about making that step for us to put their own stamp of approval and not stepping up and making those picks. So I think in both cases, I had coaches that I was really comfortable with them and their involvement. They knew how important their involvement was in the process. And that's what I would tell the coaches, that, you know what, when we put our chip on this guy, this is our guy. And we got to do the best thing we can to help him to be successful in our program. You guys, I mean, again, it's Cincinnati, the way that you guys, the continuity you had was unique in a lot of different ways. Your offensive line coach was there for years and years and years. And DB's coaches were there for years and years.

How much does that help where the front office knows what type of player position coach is looking for? Or do you think that sometimes that can get a little state? I'm wondering how you balance that. Well, I think if you can have continuity through the kind of player you're looking for by position, I think that's very helpful to everybody as far as position traits go and the characteristics and so forth and the guys, the kind of player that people would like, the kind of player that fits into our scheme. And frankly, that helps us win in our scheme against the opponents. We've got to play weekend and week out in your own division. So I think that's very important that you build the team that way.

So having that continuity of people and evaluation. So you're not always changing. Now of a sudden you're going from we want cover corners. Do we want covers? There are more cover two types, sturdy corners. We want guys that can cover and play man to man. Do we want, you know, over the top receivers? We want little fragile guys, you know, those kind of things.

What kind of backs are we looking for? You know, what's already in-house and what are we looking for as we go? And the same thing with linemen, frankly. You know, what kind of team are we going to be as far as running the football? We are zone team. We are gap-blocking scheme. And so you kind of go through those things and make sure that those players. are fitting the evaluation and the position characteristics correctly.

I'm wondering, was there any point during your time there that you remember where you kind of had to make a conscious choice to say, we want to be a different kind of team, we need to change our identity, and there were some shifts that had to happen and what types of players you were looking for? Well, there was a real big shift in 2011, like you mentioned, to both offensively and what kind of team we needed to be offensively. And that was a big shift into even the system and how we were going to look at players and make sure they could fit the system. And we had a system they could come in and learn because, you know, these days in the National Football League,

when you put a chip on these guys first, second, third round, they're expected to get out there and play right away. And so we had to do things on that. We also had similar on defense. If you have the opportunity to draft a certain kind of player, we got to be able to morph our scheme into that to take. take advantage of his skill set. Otherwise, that word that starts with a B and ends with a T comes up. Often, if you're not willing to fit and either do what that guy can do or you've got to change. And he fits right into your scheme because he already does what you do and that's where he's going to have success.

Or you've got to be willing to morph a little bit into what he does best. When you guys wanted to make those tweaks on offense, how did you communicate that to Duke and to the guys that were scouting the players? just saying we want to have a sort of philosophical shift. These are the guys we're now looking for. Well, kind of one of the advantages of like you mentioned, of being the way things were done, it was kind of a daily conversation. Gotcha.

I could have in Mr. Brown, you know, that way. So I think everybody felt comfortable and on the same page of that's the way we have an opportunity to be successful. You know, we won the division in 2009, and everybody felt all we had to do is be able to throw the ball around. We went from 08 where Carson got hurt, where we ran the football in 09, won the division, and so forth to dropping back off in 10 and then winning, you know, getting back into playoffs in 11, just because of those kind of shifts on how we were going to do

things as a football team. Do you remember a defensive player particularly that really made you kind of fueled your creativity that made you kind of rethink some things just because their skill set was so pronounced? Well, when we were fortunate to draft David Pollack in 05, we were making a transition as far as making him an outside linebacker and a third down rusher. Now, what we didn't know is David was going to be a holdout for training. And so he hit the ground running kind of come to the season and by the end of the season was playing lights out. And unfortunately, the second game of his second year, he had the neck injury and never played again. But I would say he, to me, he was going to be our bright light on defense.

He was our Carson Palmer to the defense when we were so lucky in being able to draft David. You guys had a run there from 2010 for a few years. A lot of homegrown players. I mean, that 2015 team, I still think it was a Super Bowl team if Andy doesn't get hurt and just a really, really good roster. What do you think you guys tapped into during that stretch that just allowed you to find so many guys at every area of the draft. Do you think there was something specific or is just the randomness that occasionally takes over in that process?

Well, I think there was a commitment. We lost John Joseph right after the lockout. And I think it was a commitment upstairs to make sure we continue to try to re-sign our great young talent as much as we can and then draft and develop the others. And I think that was one was part of it to obviously to draft an AJ Green and Andy Dalton and those two picks. And, you know, you already had the Andrew Whitworths, the Domitup Pecos, and the guys on defense that were holding it down. And then they continue to move forward, you know, with which each pick and each year of development and so forth. So I think just fortunate run,

continued to draft and develop, but yet continued to keep our own guys in house as much as we could. What do you remember about the conversation about Gino Ackins in 2010? Because I'm sure it was such a, I mean, obviously this is a guy who decent college production, but didn't hit certain physical benchmarks, went in the fourth round, and as an old decade player that you found in the fourth round, is one of the best graphics of the last 10 years. I was wondering what the discourse was in the building about him. There really wasn't that Mike and I and Jay Hayes, who was the D-Line coach at the time, We felt like he was the best pass rusher in the draft after the player from Oklahoma that was in Tampa forever. And I can't remember the defense attack when the first round in Dumb with the suit.

We felt Gino was the next best pass rusher after those guys. And we felt he would be an effective player for us as a rookie, which he was as a pass rusher. And then when he went into the 2011 season, he became the full-time starter. And so just, I think just he caught our eyes that way with how hard he played, the fact he was a good athlete, stayed on his feet, and we felt like he was a good interior, very good interior past rusher. Was there any concern about his size as it related to other players at that position, or was a situation where you guys just believed in the production and the fact that he could

continue that? You felt like in the fourth round that you're able to go on production and go on a, projection moving forward and this is how he fits and this is what he's going to do we had drafted dunlap earlier in the draft and so we were just trying to replenish our our defensive line at that point and kind of add to the wave and you drafted my high school teammate that year in the fifth round otis hudson who i played next to for two years in high school which is kind of funny but was there a pick that you remember during your tenure that was particularly divisive among the coaching staff and the scouting staff where you guys were far apart on a player and it led to

a lot of conversation. There's always going to be a little bit of that. We're not going to need names. All right. All right. You know, I mean, you know, sometimes, you know, particularly in those early picks and hell, it happened in Baltimore in the same way, you know. But it's funny. I mean, there's going to be, you know, a little bit of disagreement at times about, you know, player A or player B.

And you hope to get that worked out in this time. You ask what are they doing right now? They're trying to work those things out. That there's the three of us here on this screen. And if these three people are available, we're going to go one, two, three. All right. And that's the way it's going to be, you know. And, you know, that's what you try and do.

to work out in this time, you know, if we got two people who slide it, slide to decide each other, how we're going to choose if they're both available. How does that process happen? How does that choice get made? Well, I think ultimately it's talked about, I think it's done differently probably in every building, but I think it's whoever is the ultimate decision maker, he is going to try to take an input from everybody. And then ultimately, somebody's got to step up and make a choice. And that's the club's pick and everybody's got to stand behind it and nothing else needs to be said once we leave that room what's done is done and the order is how the order is and you can go from there and that's the thing leading up to the draft you always got to keep people away from

that decision maker from putting stuff in their ear and I had to go back and rearrange it you know because what was important to me we needed to get football players and players like I said earlier that was sturdy enough, physical enough, and had the mental capacity to be able to be successful in the AFC North. What would you say is the primary tension between coaches and scouts in the process, not necessarily in a negative way, but where do motivations differ? And how does that inform which types of players both groups are occasionally looking for? Well, I think the scouting process, just based on what it says, is we're bringing in new

players. We're bringing in new players and we think this guy should butt on this guy. The coaching staff has been coaching this other guy for three, four years and they know he's going to make less mental layers, put less strain on them probably day. And I think that's where the rub comes. And is the head coach and the decision makers, whether it be the GM, the head coach, et cetera, you have to continue to put the young talent forward because you know that the young talent, hopefully a week, three weeks or whatever is going to outplay the guy that's been in that spot. And it's finding that balance that you got to have as an organization as a club to continually push forward with the young talent so that your team doesn't end up getting too old on the vine. Yet you don't want to have all the mental errors and the things that get you beat because of having young talent out there and they haven't been through the wars.

It feels like coaches in that way are probably more interested in considering. being reliable and where scouts are often concerned with how high can this guy eventually go? Yes, no question about it. And until you sit in the head coach's chair, you don't understand a lot of that battle. That's why, you know, I was fortunate to have a Jay Gruden on my staff, a Hugh Jackson again later on, who had been head coaches, you know, Mike Zimmer, who saw the big picture, like I mentioned, you know, these guys who saw the big picture and they understood why certain decisions would have to be made. Is that difficult at times telling a position coach or just letting them know, like, we have to go

in this direction because we have to think three years in advance. I mean, that just seems like a tough thing to have to do in real time. It is a difficult thing, but yet I think, you know, they understand why. They got to understand why they got to look at it from the other point of view as well. You know, that this is for the good of the football team, the organization, as moving forward. And it's our job to coach them up. That's coach the player up. We've got to do the best job we can't coaching that player up.

Which pick during your time there do you think you learn the most from? The process, just everything that went into it, it kind of sticks with you now. Well, really a lot of them. But I mean, if you look at the 2011 draft. You got Cam Newton, Marcel Darius, Von Miller, A.J. Green. Patrick Peterson, J.J. Watt. Cam Hayward. We're getting a receiver in Julio Jones. Julio Jones. And so we have this parade of players through the building. Okay.

So where do you go wrong? You can't go wrong with any of those guys. I go back to 96 with the Ravens. Jonathan Ogden, Ray Lewis, you know, the guys in Eddie George, the guys in that draft, and so forth, you know, you have these. But I would say Andrew Whitworth probably makes me smile the most because we meet with this young man in Indianapolis. And after I remember he had on a white Oxford shirt, you know, polo shirt, I think probably, you know, and neat as a pin. And after we got done talking to him, I turned to, you mentioned Paul Alexander, the offensive line coat. And I said, Paul, Paul, if we're fortunate enough to draft Andrew, I won't need you. But, and then, you know, and obviously what Andrew has done through his career, what he meant to me,

what he meant to the Bengals, what he's met to the Los Angeles Ram, is off the charts. And the man, the person, who he is, it's incredible. So that's probably the coolest one of all. When you said a young man, it's hard for me to imagine him as a young man. Because even as a 21-year-old, I'm sure he had a wisdom about him that is kind of hard to pin down. No question. And that's what came about right away.

You know, I mentioned, you know, Carson with his wife, Shea, you know, Andy and his wife, JJ. you know, AJ Green, all of these got young men, you know, when you're fortunate to know them and then get to know their other half when we go through this process and you know what kind of person you're getting, you're getting a grounded person that's going to help us move forward every day. With that 2011 draft, I'm sure you know in the moment how important that is. Where you know we're drafting a quarterback, this is a reset time for our franchise. What does that feel like in the moment to know that that, this is a potentially pivotal draft for the direction and the future of the franchise overall.

Well, it was very, it was a nervous time, you know, literally, you know, we had this week, these days leading up to the draft, you know, because then I think it was still Friday, Saturday back then, I think. but regardless, you know, there have been a decision to possibly, if we ended up, if Cam was there, we had to pick Cam. If he wasn't there, we were going to choose between the other guys, two other guys. We got one of those guys. We got that guy, I should say, in AJ. And then we had to get a quarterback still.

And, you know, Mr. Brown had, in his mind, we were going to move back up in the the first round and try and get back into the first round to pick Andy. In the morning of the draft, Mr. Brown said, I don't want to move. We literally held our breath and got Andy in the second round. So, you know, he was the, it was good Friday morning. I fly down to TCU that we're working Andy out. And I fly early into Texas that morning into Dallas. I drive over to the university.

I get on the plane when I get on the plane of Cincinnati is the USA Today is on the chair. And it says I read the article in USA Today that says the team that's able to draft Andy Dalton and A.J. Green will be the big winners of the draft. When I get to the school, Jake Rudin was already there, they had gone in the night before to have dinner with Andy and meet with him. And when they meet me at the football facility, they're like, who are you talking to? It said, talk to anybody. But, you know, and we held our breath and it worked out. It's amazing because, I mean, there are organizations like this year where you're looking at it and you look at the draft capital that they have. You look at where they are and their trajectory as a franchise, like the Jets, for example, who have two top 10 picks.

And there are some teams going into it where you know it feels like that. It feels like this is the year where we need to make it. happen. And I'm sure that can lead to some some itchy trinker fingers and some questionable decision making. But even in the building when you're you're supposed to be trained to have an even keeled approach to all of this, I'm sure that feeling is kind of inescapable in some years. Well, it's exciting. You know, this is an exciting time. You know, you talk about the scouts. Literally, they've been working on this draft class since last May. You know, they've been working on this since last May. And so their antit is.

the excitement, the people in the building, the fans, the rest of the staff, because they know what it means, the opportunity to win and to change the face of the franchise right away. Because when you put that chip on the first rounder, he's got to be that kind of guy because he's always going to be remembered as that first rounder this year. And how he goes is generally how the franchise is thought about. I'm wondering because they work on in the class for so long, because they put so much work into it, do you feel like occasionally on the scouting side there are entrenched opinions that are difficult to deal with from the coaching side when you guys come to it a little bit later in the process? Yeah, there are always some that way, but you just got to understand it.

It's important to them. This is what they believe. And, you know, you can kind of show them a different way. This is how we play offense. This is how we play defense. this is why I think this player fits us a little better. And I think he's going to continue to fit us a little better in three years down the road. Not only three weeks, three months, but three years.

This is why. And I think that's important that you can have that open kind of dialect and conversation. And hopefully that's what's kind of cultivated from the top down to have that kind of conversation. Because ultimately we all win and we all lose. And when they make changes, everybody can be part of it. change. You know, nobody's guaranteed once things fail and it goes the other way. But your time as a head coach, what would you say is the biggest lesson you learned about how to create that alignment between the two sides, the thing that you took away from the process?

I just really think the open dialogue and everybody understanding what the player needs to do, be able to do, to be successful. In other words, if you, you're looking, if your scheme defensively, you want cornerbacks that can run and cover. If you draft a cornerback that can't run and cover, you know what you're looking for next year? You're back to can run and cover. And it's the same thing with the offensive lineman. If he doesn't, in my opinion, he doesn't have enough core strength and ability to anchor and do the things he has to do in your offensive run game, cast game, then you're going to look for the same guy next year because you're trying to fill that void. And the only way to fill it is either through free agency or the draft.

And we know the numbers free agency gets into when you get into those battles. So I think it's, you know, you got to do a good job of being able to open up the dialogue and everybody working hard to be on the same page. And whoever's at the top has to continue to cultivate that. If you got another shot and you can kind of build it from scratch, would you build in time for that communication to happen, whether it was regular meeting, discussions between the both sides. How would you try to create it actually by design

rather than just cultivating that feeling in the building? I think you do have to have some of the meetings, you know, and maybe you don't want to tie up everybody in the meeting. You go by side of the ball or so forth, so everybody's seeing the same things that way. But yet you got involved as much of the scouting staff as you can so that they see your vision of what the players look like. Now, a lot of times people know coming in what kind of guys you like because they've followed your career and your process.

But yet, I think it's important that you do set down and you take the time and you watch tape together and evaluate together. I mean, that was always part of the process for me is once the season was over and so forth. And when Duke would sit down with me and go through the upcoming process and give me kind of the preview of. of us going into the combine. And that way, that was important for us to do that. I'm sure you've got to feel for what kind of players he liked, too. I'm sure that develops over time when you get a sense of their tastes. You do.

It's like anything else. And, you know, that's the thing I think that, you know, you want to share. And it's okay to have that. You got to have that kind of dialogue. It's not me or us or them. Because if we can't agree, it's going to be hard for the ultimate decision maker to ever make a great decision because he's unsure which way. And so it's important, I think, to try to get everybody on the same page as much as possible. So that would be the number one thing is just, again, because it's so important, you've got to be lockstep.

And I told people that all the time when they left me. you got to be lockstep with the GM. You guys can't, you guys have to work together. You have to. You're not always going to agree, but when you come out of there, that's our decision, and that's the way it's going to be. And hell, it was the same with myself and Mr. Brown. He said, you know, Marvin, you know, I need this one.

You know, the way it's going to be. And I understood that. And otherwise you say, hey, let's go how you feel. On general level, because of that, do you think, think that teams that, let's say, keep a GM and bring in a new head coach or bring in a new GM with a head coach that's been there, do you think that puts teams at a disadvantage by not aligning those two sides of the building from the start? I don't know that it's a disadvantage. I think it's an advantage for them to get on the same page as quick as possible. And I think

that's important. That's where we see a lot of changes occur where maybe a new GM is hired and the head coach is retained and things haven't been good. then it looks like they make a change a year later because that GM wants his guy or vice versa. You know, the head coach and the old GM aren't getting along, but the new head coach now rises, you know what I mean? Absolutely. That's important that you don't have that divisiveness within the building. It's hard enough to win, but to not have that kind of tension that's drawn away from what's important.

Well, you won plenty, and I really appreciate your instance. on this entire topic and this entire conversation. Thank you very much for the time, Marvin. Really, really appreciate it. My pleasure. You're very welcome. I am thrilled now to welcome Fran Duffy, who does a whole lot of stuff. He does X's and O's work for the Eagles.

He is the host of the Journey to the Draft Podcasts that I would highly encourage you guys to check out. He does Eagle specific stuff, but is also one of my favorite kind of X's and O's tape people to discuss stuff with. Fran, thank you very much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Yeah, Robert, thanks so much for having me. Really excited to talk to some deep. So there are two reasons that I wanted to have you on to do this.

You and I had dinner in Mobile, Alabama, earlier this year. During that dinner, you mentioned that you've come to like watching the corners. You've come to appreciate the process. You like it. It's like, oh, who am I going to have on to talk about the corners with? You were the first name that came to mind. And also, I'm going to put this in as vague a terms as possible. There is a chance that as someone who works for the Eagles and is thinking about things from an Eagles perspective,

you may be watching this year's cornerback class. That's all I'm going to say. I'm not going to get you in trouble. It's literally as far as I'm going to push it there. Well, yeah, for me, watching the corners is just so much fun. And not only because, look, when you look at draft analysts, not everybody has access to the All-22 all the time. And so having that chance, that an opportunity to be able to watch as much tape on these guys as possible.

And then in a previous life, I worked at Temple Football and working with the coaching staff there on a day-to-day basis really kind of took a liking to watching DB play and learning as much as I could about the play. position. And while I don't know as much from the exes and nose angle, and I'm always trying to learn more from especially in today's league, how coverages are constantly changing and evolving and getting more complicated. To me, just DB play from an individual trait standpoint has always been something that I've really kind of taken a liking to. It's an awesome thing to sink your teeth into conversationally. And with the corners especially, I wanted to hone in on something.

We haven't really hit as much on some of the other positions that we've talked about. And that's where the scheme fit is and what role is best for these guys. So for each of the top sevenish corners in the draft here, and there are a couple other guys you wanted to chat about. I wanted to talk about the trait you're most excited about with them, what you're most worried about, just whatever's giving you pause, even if it's something small, and then the scheme or role that we think fits them best.

And we're just going to run down the list that I think Dane has in the order that he has the men. So let's start with Soss Gardner from Cincinnati, who a lot of people consider a potential top five pick in this draft. unique usage at Cincinnati long frame. What is the thing about sauce that you are most excited about with him as a prospect? Well, I guess first off, just walking off the bus. I mean, he's one of the first guys he wanted the opponent to see.

I mean, six foot two and a half, 33 and a half inch arms. He's all arms and legs. He's like a praying mantis to the boundary. And so when you look at just the way he's built and then the way he was used, I mean, he was the boundary corner in that defense and he was hyper aggressive. And he had that ability to engulf receivers early in the down. and just take them out of the progression. And that's the thing is that any of the limitations he might have,

if you're able to get the quarterback off your first read because of how aggressive you are as a press corner, you've done your job, especially at the college level. And there's been all the anonymous quotes. I know Bruce Feldman did that outstanding mock draft a couple weeks ago over on the athletic, and he had that anonymous quote from a coach who said, yeah, like, we thought we were going to go out. And we're watching on tape and we said, we're going to be aggressive.

And it was after the first rep, we said, yeah, we're just going to go the other side of the field. I think that's what you love. like about Sauce Gardner. And there are all the metrics being thrown out there in terms of he's never allowed to touch down and things of that nature. That can be a little bit wonky in terms of just in terms of sample size. But I think ultimately, when you look at the overall body of work, a three-year starter with his size, he goes to the combine. He runs low four-four, so he checks that box. I think you just see a lot of the things that you like to see from a top flight corner prospect. And we can get into some of the other tangible qualities of his game, but just a really fun player

going to study. It's one of those things where sometimes with press corners in college, the traits that allow them to be successful in that specific role aren't going to necessarily translate to the NFL. You're not going to be able to bully NFL receivers in the same way. Are you strong enough to hold up that way? And with him, it's interesting because he has a ton of of that on tape, right? He has more press snaps than pretty much everyone else in this draft, and he does it very well, but he's also doing it at Cincinnati against slightly worse competition than he's going to be facing consistently. does that worry you at all that the players he's playing against consistently in college

just aren't nearly to the same level of the guys he's going to be having to bully every single week in the NFL. Yeah, and that's why you try and lean on as many of the high level competition snaps as you can. So obviously they, you know, they played in a college football playoff game this year. You get to see him against some Power 5 competition. He had that interception on the opening drive against Notre Dame. That came in underneath zone coverage. But again, you get to see him, you get some quality snaps against higher levels of competition.

To me, too, the other. big thing is I'm a big, big proponent of play personality, especially when you get to the back seven. It's funny, the conversation you had with Deonté earlier this week talking about linebackers, I felt like a lot of that was pertinent to corners as well. And I think really you're going to just apply it to all of the back seven. I think everybody looks at the cornerback spot and says, oh, that's a stopwatch position. That's height weight speed. To me, especially in recent years, it's going to be, you're seeing more of these corners come out where, yeah, the height weight speed, that certainly is important. But you start getting into the,

level of competitiveness, the ball skills, the route awareness, the instincts, that umbrella term, the ball skills, just everything across the board that isn't necessarily height, weight speed motivated, I think all of those are huge, huge factors to whether a guy, you know, quote unquote hits or not in the NFL. In terms of weaknesses, stuff that you're a little bit worried about with him, what jumps out first to you? I think the big question you have, number one, he had 14 penalties over the course of his career, not only two last year, but when you look at that compared to some of the other top

corners, that's going to be one of the big questions. I mean, McCreary, he was the only one of the top group that had double digits. He had 10 and, you know, all the other guys. I mean, Trent McDuffie had four. I think Andrew Booth only had one in his career. Derek Stingley only had a lot, right? I think Eam had a few flags this year, especially. Yeah, especially this year. He had 12 total. He had seven this year. So I think when you look at Elam, that would be the other question. But sauce Gardner's got the, he's the, that's the number one of that group. He also didn't do any other testing outside of the 40. And there are some people that have some questions about just the overall, the quickness in and out of breaks and things of that nature. And so

the handsiness, that will come into question. Now, you have to kind of tow that line. We talked about that a year ago with J.C. Horn, who was a top 10 pick from South Carolina, very, very grabby. He still ended up being a top 10 pick and was off to a good start this year for the Panthers before the injury. And so I think you're still going to have some of those questions with Sauce Gardner, but there's no denying this guy in terms of his competitiveness, and certainly that length is going to show up. He's got that ability to finish on the ball as well. In terms of scheme fit, where do you think is the best role for him?

Where do you think he makes the most sense? To me, like there are two of the guys I wrote down while watching him were Xavier Rhodes and Drake Kirkpatrick. And so when you talk about some of those body types in terms of how they're used, clearly he's comfortable up at the line of scrimmage. And so a team that's going to be able to utilize him that way. A lot of people, it's funny, when you talk about, oh, this guy's a press corner. well, if you're a press corner,

you're going to be putting some tough advantages at some point in terms of losing off the ball. Receivers are too good. You're going to get beat. So you've got to have that ability to recover. So with Soss Gardner going to Indianapolis at the Combine and running in the low four fours, that kind of calmed any issues you may have had,

any concerns you may have had about his ability to fit as a press corner in the NFL. So to me, you know, getting up, getting him up close to the line of scrimmage. And a lot of teams kind of treat that as a case-by-case basis anyway. If the corner feels comfortable playing up the line, you'll let him do that. But to me, any system that's going to give him that freedom,

I think zone or man, I think kind of works for him. I don't think that he's pigeonholed one way or the other. It's interesting. We think of zone coverage as this kind of static, passive thing where you're playing off and you have to break down on the ball. But if you show the traits to not play like that and you want to be more aggressive, there are a lot of coaches around the league that are going to adopt that and embrace that. And I think that if you have a guy who can do it,

there's really no reason to not unleash him in that way. So I think that makes perfect sense to me. All right. Let's get to Derek Stingley from LSU. The thing you're most excited about when watching Derek Stingley. I mean, just the total toolbox, right? All the traits you're looking for in terms of the movement skills, the ball skills are just out of this world. And you have to do, you do have to take the entire body of work into account.

I think when it comes to that, especially with an ability to finish on the ball. We've had so many questions about corners coming out of college, whether it's a lack of production or inconsistent production. And you say, oh, you go back and if you've seen them play the ball once, then you feel good about it. Well, we saw Derek Stingley Jr. play the ball more than once over the course of his career. He was an outstanding finisher at the catch point.

And even if he didn't get both hands on the ball, his way to get the ball on the ground really always stood out to me. So to me, Derek Stingley Jr., we talk about his athleticism, his quickness, his route awareness in both man and zone, really, really stands out. He can play press and off. He can move around the formation.

This is a guy that's played in three different schemes. So to me, he's going to have a, he's going to be well-versed in all the different ways he can be utilized moving forward into the NFL. I know the tackling's been a little bit up and down, but we could talk about that here in a little bit. I've still seen good flashes of him coming downhill and playing. So to me, Derek Stingley Jr., there's a lot to like with the overall body of work. And anytime I'm sure you've seen it as well, you can go back and watch him in practice,

one-on-one against Jamar Chase, one-on-one against Justin Jefferson, two of the best young receivers in today's game, and the way that he was able to play against those guys in practice, having watched a lot of that film, there's not a lot to get upset about when you watch some of that footage. the awareness, especially his freshman year, just out of this world. I mean, I think he had 21 passes defense that year, which just think about that number. I mean, that number is so absurd.

And sometimes when you see those, ball production typically speaks for itself. If you get that, you know what you're doing. But interceptions can be wonky where you get some tip balls and things bounce your way. He earned those six interceptions his freshman year. His ability to get his head around, understand when the ball was coming, when to make a play on the that's one of those things. You can't teach that. That is just pure instinctual awareness.

And he has that. And he showed a lot of that, but he showed a lot of that two years ago. And that's the question. When you talk about what is the big concern for him, it's that his best football was two years ago. He hasn't played a ton since that point. The tackling has been put into question.

And I do think not all mistackles are created equal. I think when you talk, especially when you talk about guys in the secondary and particularly a corner, you know, some of his mistackles come along the sideline where he's coming from across the field or coming from the slot. Those can get a little, that's a little bit different than when he's one-on-one and there's a bubble screen or there's a jet sweep and he's got to make the stop

or nobody else does. He had that one bad miss against Kyle Phillips along the sideline that led to a touchdown. That's a bad play, right? But that's a little bit different than, oh, he's left one-on-one in an island and he misses and now he loses contain out the back door. So to me, you know, the mistackles, that's got to get cleaned up. And obviously, you know, he's got to stay healthy here in 2020. I come to this process very late compared to other people.

And you hear names and the ways that BIs are talked about. I kind of build these archetypes in my mind. And when people were talking about him, I thought he was going to check every box physically. Right. I thought that he was some 6-2, 200-pound, you know, 33-half-inch arms type corner. He is not that.

He is not that kind of once every five to 10 years athlete physically at the position. Are we talking ourselves? in too much to the flashes with him rather than the body of work. Because even if it was as a freshman when he broke out, I just think that we talk about him in this really advanced way when it came to what that year was. I think it's funny that him, he and Tibido both who have gotten beaten up in this process, right? And to me, with both guys, you would say that about when it came to the body type getting the official measurements on in Indianapolis when they showed up for the combine. Tibido came in a little bit smaller, not quite as long as people expect, a little bit lighter.

Stingley, same deal. I mean, he came in under 31-inch arms, right? And that's short arms for a corner, not as short as some of the other guys we'll talk about tonight. But I think when you look at Stingley, yeah, I think that is part of it too, where some of the shine has worn off because, and then even then at the pro day, the testing was fine. He checked the box, but it wasn't like out of this world. None of those numbers point to you and say, oh, man, like this is a plus plus athlete. So you're going to rely on the film. obviously this is a guy coming off Liz Frank surgery and all that.

So that's where I think if you liked Derek Stenley going in, you're going to look at that and say, oh, that's fine. You're going to kind of write that off. And if you didn't like him, you say, oh, well, you see, he didn't match exactly what you were expecting. And so that's some of that confirmation bias that we've come to expect during this time of year. Well, the reason I bring it up is because it's easier to just say, you know what, fuck it, when the guy is an Uber athlete. And that's what you're betting on.

But now you're really betting on what he is as a corner. positionally more than you're betting on these insane traits when there's a lot of other gray area in his entire body of work. So I just think with him especially, it's worth keeping in mind because you're having to read into some stuff with him. You're having to talk yourself into a version of the player that you haven't seen in a little while. I was going to say too is that if this were the inverse, if 2019, if the 2021 season was 2019 and what we saw in 2019 was 2021, he's a, I mean, top three, top five pick. He's the best player in the draft.

Yeah, no question. Scheme role, where do you think he fits the best? To me, I think that he is very scheme diverse. And whether it's zone or man, I think you feel pretty good about it. And that's the thing is that when you start talking about all of these corners, to me, when you talk about trying to stack them, if you're not with a team and you're just looking at all these 32 team agnostic,

I think when you look at Stingley, you say he might be the most scheme diverse of the top corners in that you can play him inside or outside. You can play him from off. You can play him from press. You can play a man, play zone. That kind of position and scheme versatility. That, to me, brings a ton of value.

And so I think that's the big thing with him is that he can come in. And to me, in my eyes, he could play for anybody. Now it's just going to be a matter of checking those other boxes away from the field as well. It's, I'm the tone that I've taken here over the last 90 seconds or so is like fairly negative. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate because when you look at what that freshman year looked like And you look at a draft that even if people like the meat of it in the middle to back half of the first round, there aren't that many truly elite players. And I think it is easy to talk yourself into the best version of him.

It's also easy to talk yourself into why it hasn't gone well over the last couple of years. Injuries aside, right? Like that is going to be a concern and should be a concern moving forward. But when it comes to the actual engagement and what he looked like and all that kind of stuff, when things go off the rails after you've had this magical first season, I can understand if you're in a building saying, if we get him here, we have a good situation, he's going to be the best player in the draft. I get that line of thinking. The guy that I have thought of multiple times throughout the process with him, and again,

he was an inverse situation because this guy was a redshirt sophomore who didn't play really until that final year. And that's Marchon Latimore. And Latimore, he had a bunch of soft tissue injuries from early in his career. He could not stay on the field at Ohio State. And then he goes then for that final season, he was really good. He had some miss tackles. There were some consistency issues, but the highs were really, really impressive. The Saints obviously had a lot of faith in him

and he ended up being a home run pick for them in the first round. Yeah, Marshall Ladamore is okay. If that's going to be Derek's thing, this comp through this process, I think it's going to work out for whatever team drafts. All right. Trent McDuffie from Washington. What is the trade that you're most excited about with him?

I think for me, you're looking at the competitiveness and the consistency. This is a guy that did not give up many big plays at all. in that secondary. And that says over the course of a three-year starter. He's going to be a 21-year-old rookie. He's played a ton of football over the course of his career. He's a little bit undersized, but he's competitive. And I really, really like his instincts. He's a pesky man cover corner. He hit pockets with really, really good reaction quickness. And what I say by that, one of the things I really look for is how do these corners react outside the numbers on intermediate routes? So those deep comebacks, those deep curls, the deep digs, do they show that ability to read that route and sink their

hips and get in and out of cuts and you see that burst out of the cut as well. And I think when you look at McDuffie, he's got that ability to be able to stay so close to the receiver in those intermediate areas that he can steal his wallet out of his pocket. And that's what I'm looking for is those guys that have that ability to be able to do that. And that shows that you can play in man to man in the NFL. Now, McDuffie, like I said, a little bit undersized. I'm a big believer in production over the course of a guy's career. The production isn't quite there for McDuffie.

I think he only had two picks in his career, didn't have any this past. season. And so you're going to bring that into question. But overall, I think when you look at McDuffie, the overall qualities in terms of the awareness, the toughness and competitiveness and also the versatility, he's got some inside, outside flex as well. Those are all things he can hang his hat on. I mean, the size, he at the combat, 510, 3 quarters, 193. I'm pretty sure that's what I was this morning. So, I mean, that's, that is not a big person. And the arm length, 29 and 3 quarters, which is the fifth percentile arm length among corners. So not a ton of production and definitely not prototypical size in the areas that you're looking for.

Anything else in terms of things that you're worried about? Or would you say those are the big two? I think those are the big two is the lack of true on the ball production. And even not just on ball production, but coming downhill, sacks, TFLs, the ability to just make plays on the football just weren't consistently there. He had four and a half TFLs over the course of his career, three force fumbles over the course of his career, one sack, right? So just not a lot of big plays on the football. ball. I would say that's probably the biggest knock. But again, just has been a rock solid player for that defense for the last three years.

And again, one of the big things I like to do is not just watch, you know, a handful of games. I'm not just going to watch all of their plays on the ball, all the times they make contact with the ball. But I also like to watch all the big plays allowed by that secondary. And how involved was he? Sometimes you can't always, oh, this guy, this one was squarely on him. But just how many of those big plays was he involved with? Weren't many. Spoilerlerler.

Weren't many on that film. And so I think that's one of the things that you can hang his hat on. So despite the lack of production. Would you say it's fair to characterize him as having maybe a higher floor than some of the other guys in this class, but a lower ceiling where you're just getting a guy that you can rely on at that spot, which absolutely has value? I think so. And especially when you look at today's game, and it's again, going back to the conversation

you have with Deonté, like the way I've kind of crystallized it in my mind is having an understanding of what does it take to be a great player at every position? And then what do you need to be a good player at every position? I think McDuffie checks a lot of the boxes to be a good player at corner in the NFL today in 2022 in terms of all the things we've already talked about. I think that he's got that skill set that he is a good starting corner all day, every day. And you can kind of get into that conversation with like Aidan Hutchinson for pass rushers,

right? It's just like, yeah, you feel really good about his ability to step in and be a very useful player in an NFL secondary. Now you just have a, you have to talk about the ceiling. And to me, like, you go back on that quote of like the talent sets the floor, character sets the ceiling. Everything you hear about McDuffie is that he is outstanding off the field and he was a big time team leader and someone that they can rely on. He started right away as a true freshman. So all of those things, that makes you feel good about his ability to hit whatever that ceiling is for him moving forward into the NFL.

Scheme fit, it makes the most sense to you. Definitely. I would say more so a team where he can play off the ball a little bit, play from depth, not necessarily a top down player, obviously, but a guy that can play off the ball. And also, he's got some inside, outside versatility, like I mentioned. So a team that's willing to utilize that versatility, I think will play well for him. I think he's got excellent man instincts, but he's got really good zone instincts as well. And to me, like, again, instincts, that's like such an umbrella term. And I hate using umbrella terms, but that can be difficult to kind of illustrate exactly what I'm talking about to me for a zone corner to have instincts. It just starts with an understanding of how defense or how offenses want to attack you.

So, hey, I know that I'm in cover, that we're playing cover two on this play. The opponent probably knows that we're going to play cover two on this play. What are the route concepts from this formation and this down and distance that can attack us in cover two? I'm either going to bait this throw or I'm going to completely take it away. So showing that understanding and something, you're not going to get all of that just from the film. You have to understand the limitations of the tape a little bit. You want to be able to talk to the player, talk to the coaching and get a better sense of that. but to me, Trent McDuffie, he shows a lot of that awareness in zone and in math.

This is a larger conversation that we could have for a very long time. But if we were doing this a year ago, I would have prioritized guys that have that awareness in zone coverage. If you just look at the overall sweeping trends throughout the league, you feel like look how much more zone some of the top defenses in the league we're playing and just the fangioification of what defensive football in the NFL was. now I look at it and I look at what Vic Fangio did this year and he played a ton of man coverage like an absurd amount because he had the guys and it's just one of those things where we try to you know I make it more complicated than it is but as you have more and more zone coverage throughout the league and your press man is kind of going out of vogue a tiny bit it's

time to say who fits those zone defenses but in reality I think that man traits will always still win out when you're looking at corners that's still going to be the most important thing because I think when it comes down to it, a lot of defensive coordinators outside of the dogmatic guys like the Gus Bradley's of the world, when given the opportunity, if they could just play a man all the time because they had the dudes, I think that's still what they would do. So that push in the poll between where the league is going schematically versus what you kind of want at your core with some of these guys, I think that's a really interesting little tension there. To me, like you mentioned it when you have corners that can play man-to-man coverage, that is

harder to do. and therefore when you have a guy that has that trait, that's more valuable. And so those guys are going to go a little bit earlier. Even when you see those guys early on in drafts, the pure height weight speed guys, they're always going to go a little bit earlier because they've got the man upside. And so to me, like that goes back to what I mentioned earlier about understanding, what is it that makes a great corner and what is it that makes a good corner and it just depends on what you're fishing for.

And I think that, you know, having that guy that can play in man-to-man coverage, that will always vault a guy up the board a little bit. All right. Andrew Booth from Clebson. What's the trait you're most excited about with him? The, this is twofold. I would say the ball skills and the toughness. And those are two things that are huge staples for what I think projects NFL

success at that position. It came in a small sample size. But Andrew Booth first popped on my radar last year, 2020, he made this ridiculous one-handed interception against Virginia in the end zone. He, O'Dell Beckham did it. One-hand interception, one-er in the end zone, just a ridiculous play. I'm like, okay, jot this guy's name down. He ended up starting the last.

four games of last season and then became a full-time starter this year when D.K. Kendrick went on to move on to Georgia. So I think when you look at Andrew Booth, it's the ball skills, but then also he is not just this all, you know, let me play the ball, just to cover corner. He is one of the more ferocious, competitive downhill players in this class at the cornerback spot. It's outstanding sticks against running backs against receivers. And, you know, obviously you know this, but tackling to me, it's so underrated for corners in today's league because when you talk about the screen game being diversified across the NFL, all the RPOs, all the quick hitters, the jet sweeps, corners are on an island more often than not.

And so you've got to be able to finish one-on-one as a tackler. Andrew Mus has some misses just because he'll come down and he'll fly downhill so he can be a little bit more disciplined at times. But there's no questioning to want to. He loves to come downhill and be physical. I can sense a little glim in your eye here as you're talking about him. I get that you're excited about him. It's coming through.

Yeah, he's one of those guys that you just. just like can't help but really like because again, he offers you like the, the splash and the sizzle, right? You've got a little bit of everything there when you've got that ability to finish on the ball and coverage, but then also come downhill and do some of the dirty work as well. He didn't run, correct? So we don't have a time for him? Correct. So I would say that's the knock right now is that he did not participate in any of the pre-draft stuff due to the injuries.

He had some soft tissue stuff. I think it was like quad that kept him out of the combine that he tweaked during training. And then he had to get surgery. It sounds like he's going to be ready for training camp, but missed this entire part of the process. And so you're kind of relying on what you've seen on the tape with him. And again, only a small sample size. He had 15 starts, less than a thousand snaps played over the course of his career. And so you're going to really rely on what you've seen from him on tape.

I didn't see anything that was like a huge, huge issue. I don't think he was like a plus plus athlete, but certainly check the boxes at the very least. Is there anything just mechanically about his game that gives you a little bit of pause beyond just the lack of information we have about the I would say at times, like, didn't always look extremely explosive out of breaks from a laterally athletic standpoint. I think that would probably be the lone issue that you see mechanically on film. I thought everything else looked pretty good. I talked about some of the mistackles. But outside of that, there was a lot to like above average size across the board, 31.5 inch arms, that checks the box, over six tall, 194 pounds. So he's got pretty good size.

He's got pretty good feet. Again, the ball skills and toughness are to our top notch. This is a really fun player to watch. And again, we don't have any sort of jumps or anything like that to assuage whatever concerns you might have about that explosiveness and get it out of break. So just something to think about and keep an eye on. All right, a scheme fit for Booth that makes the most sense to you. So he's interesting because I think you would be able to project him well to being able to be a press man corner.

They just didn't do a ton of it this year. And I think they had a lot of turnover at Clemson. Over the last couple of years, they have played a lot of youth, especially in that secondary. So I think when you look, they probably played a little bit safer than normal. Brent Venables, they played a whole ton of soft zone coverage on third down this year. And I think that that's something that when you look at booths, okay, well, you see some of that zone awareness. You see some of that ability to finish, but not as many press man snaps. But now you get into the conversation of it's not what you did in college.

It's what you can do in the NFL just because he was asked to do something in college. It doesn't mean he can't do it. We see that at so many different positions across the board. I think with Booth, that will be the question is, and you would have loved to have the private workout stuff with him this year to be able to see that in the pre-draft process, just to see how he moves and how he executes some of the techniques that you would ask him to do in your given scheme, but now it's going to be more of a projection. This is a challenge with any position, right? I mean, the idea of projecting guys is extremely hard. There's a reason they would not say anything people don't already know. This shit is hard.

It's hard to project guys into the league. corners and safeties is unbelievably difficult. The level of projection that is involved at those positions. And the hit rate doesn't necessarily dip compared to other spots, not all that worse than it is in some other positions. But for me, specifically, this is the one where maybe it's because I just know less about the position mechanically or how to project those traits. But you watch guys, and part of me just wants to throw my hands up sometimes

be like, good luck. I think your guess is as good as mine. And I think that this is a really good example. Yeah, it's why, like, I love watching it because I could, I can have this conversation with five people and get five different opinions on guys. It's a Rorschach test, man. It definitely is. It's so much, but that's what makes it fun to me. And, you know, like minds, can really see players differently.

And that's okay. But that's one of my favorite parts of not just this position, but this entire process. All right. Kair Elam from Florida, to trade you're most excited about. I would say just the aggressiveness at the line of scrimmage and just a really competitive corner. And so you get into some of the things that we talked about earlier with like Sauce Gardner. The flashes of him over the line of scrimmage are really, really impressive. Just competitive.

Again, borderline Hansi was flagged, what was it, seven times we said earlier, 12 times during his career. Yeah. So, you know, that's a little bit of a concern. Only three picks. But this is a guy that when you talk about his competitiveness at the line of scrimmage early in the down, he's got that ability to recover as well. You're on sub four four at the combine on the laser. So you feel good about, okay, we can.

put him up with the line of scrimmage. And if he does get beat early, he's got that ability to recover. I think that he showed solid ability to get his head around it and finish on the football. The production wasn't always there. But the tools are there for him to be very, very good in that kind of system. Yeah, I was watching the Alabama game. And he got hurt in that game. But early on, he had some reps against Jameson Williams that really made you sit up in your chair.

And he has size that few guys in this draft do. He almost 6-2. His arms are shorter than that frame would probably lead you to believe. But his wing span is still 64. percentile. I mean, he really does have that attitude. So this is, I mean, I've seen a little bit of everybody, but his was one that he snuck up on me when I started watching him. I was like, I like, I like this more that I might have expected to when I turned this on. And I would say, too, that he's probably got like the highest variance in terms of when you talk to people around the league and

say, okay, what do you think of Elam? Some people are really, really high on him and some aren't as high on him. And again, he's one of those players. That's one of those things that we were just talking about a couple of minutes ago is that at this position, it could be fun. I think Elam is a prime example of that. There are going to be some to say, yeah, he's just a little bit too grabby. I'm not quite sure about the movement in and out of breaks. And some of the shuttles did turn into that a little bit. I mean, 7153 cone isn't ideal for that position. And that's what he did at the pro day. So I think when you look at Elam, that's going to be one of the big concerns and the handsiness. But he's a fun player. If you can get him into

that kind of situation where he can be up at the line of scrimmage and be aggressive, you know, that kind of system will play well to him. That's exactly what we're talking about before where when you have a guy who can bully people in college can that translate to the league and that does worry me even if i was impressed with him in the snaps that i saw i think translating that to the next level sometimes can be really difficult to do i mean that three cone the title linda bomb's three cones better than that so i mean that's speaks more to tyler linderbaum than it does to cut your ear one but i still think you know something to keep an eye on all right kiler gordon from washington what are they putting in the water up there in seattle goodness gracious

So Kyler Gordon is funny because he has been on the radar since like 2019. He was on Bruce Feldman's freak list back in the summer of 2019. And, you know, Jimmy Lake said back then, this is the most athletic defensive back I've ever coached. And he's got like this crazy background of like dance and ballet and kung fu. He was on the Seattle Storm's hip hop dance troupe as a kid. I read Dave's draft guide. I was reading it this morning. I was like, where does he learn this?

Yeah. Well, Bruce had that back in a 19. Oh, gosh. So like when you look at just his background is really fun. His usage over the course of his career has been really fun. Now, he hasn't, he wasn't really able to hold that starting job down consistently until this year. But I think when you look at his usage, he has been a boundary corner. He has been the right corner when they've gone left corner right corner.

But he's also been like a big nickel and regular nickel for them. He's matched up against tight ends. And you know this. That can be so, so valuable moving forward to the NFL. His size is just is solid across the way. 5-11 and a half, 194 pounds, 31-inch arms. So the lack of length, because that's a below average number, the lack of length might be a little bit of a concern if you're projecting him to that

kind of a role. But again, when you're looking at the height weight speed, that kind of goes back to what we were talking about in terms of the value of a man cover corner. He's got all of those traits. He didn't quite hit the testing marks that people were expecting based off the freaklist. But again, the 667 free cone, the 396 short shuttle. Like those are those are frekezoid numbers.

Those are outstanding, outstanding numbers, despite the 4-5, 640. Some people might project them best to the slot. He was also really, especially this year as a junior, I loved his toughness and competitiveness downhill. I thought he was a much better run defender this year compared to years past. And so to me, you might be betting on the come there that his best, most consistent football might be ahead of him. It just now comes down to what at what point are you hoping that those traits are going to pay off.

The 40 wasn't what people expected as a combat. but his jumps at his pro date were still, you know, 80th, 80th, 90th percentile type stuff. So he's still a very good athlete, even if he's not that top 1% athlete that people might have thought he was. In terms of weaknesses, what are you potentially worried about with Caligordon? It goes to the same thing we said about McDuffie. The ball disruption has not always been there. Only two picks in his career.

So I think that that's, and they both came this year. So two seasons before that, no interceptions. only 14 total ball disruptions over the, that's interceptions and past breakups. So to me, when you look at that over the course of 17 starts, that that's not an ideal number. But it's not too bad considering a little bit of a small sample size. I would say that the volume of ball disruption and then just the consistency,

again, for a guy that has been on the radar since 2019, but only really held that starting spot down this final year. Some people will ask questions about that. I think that just watching can get back in phase downfield. He can be a little bit slow to get his head around to find the football. And again, that can speak to the lack of production a little bit. Where do you think he fits best? To me, I think that he is a really impressive, intriguing player as a matchup player inside.

And so if you're a man coverage team that, you know, you want your corners to be able to come downhill and tackle, he can do that. But to me, like an Isaiah Oliver type of usage into what he has turned into in Atlanta where he has been kind of like that big inside match. up in nickel. He can also play on the outside, obviously. I mean, he's got the skill set to be able to do that. But to me, that might be where he's most intriguing in my eyes moving forward to the NFL. Roger McCreary from Auburn, Trey, you're most excited about. To me, it's the overall instincts and competitiveness. And I think when you look at a guy, this is like, he's not the same player as Tredavius White was coming out of LSU, but shades of Tredavius White coming out of LSU. He comes in a smaller package. But I think when you look at his,

feet and his feel for routes as they develop downfield. I think he mirrors really, really well in man to man. And he's just got such an impressive feel in zone coverage. He's a really battle-tested corner. He's been a starter now for two and a half seasons. And he has seen the best of the best of the best in the SEC. And there's there's some bad ones on today, especially you go back to 2020, some of his games that he had against some of the best players in the conference. Some of those guys got him a little bit. But I think that paid off for him here as a senior. I thought his senior tape was really, really impressive. To me, like when you talk about instincts and ball skills and competitiveness, that's where McCreery really kind of makes his money. What do you worry about?

The lack of length, you know, under 29-inch arms. And just for context, I mean, there's only one corner drafted in the last decade that's got under 29-inch arms. And that was Avery Williams last year who was drafted out of Boise State. And so just the lack of length, that's going to be a turnoff for people. And we know that there are a lot of teams that have those physical thresholds and say, okay, you need those, you need to hit these benchmarks. Because teams, at the end of the day, teams are just looking for reasons to get guys off the draft board.

You're trying to whittle down thousands and thousands of names to get down to 150, 175. Some teams go down as low as 125. So you're just looking for reasons to get guys off the list. And so for me, when you look at McCreary, that's going to be the big question. Any team that's okay with the lack of length, to me, he's going to be one of those earlier picks. But out to the lack of length, I would say is the big, big concern for people. It's funny. Sometimes some of these numbers can be misleading. I think he led the country, according to PFF and forced incompletions this year with 20. Is that a good thing?

Is that a sign that teams are going after him consistently? So providing context to some of those is always difficult with corners. Yeah. And that's so like I looked at the forced incompletions. And I also looked at the forced incompletion percentage. And he's got a really good number from that standpoint. So I'm like, okay, that does make you feel a little bit better that from an efficiency standpoint, they show up. But the other big thing that I would say is that at 511 190, he also only ran 4.5.3. And so that's going to be a number that'll kind of hang over him as well. But the teams that are say, okay, we're going to bet on the football player and not like the height weight speed stuff. That's where you'll see those teams will probably value him a little bit higher. Where do you think he

fits the best trying to mitigate some of those concerns? Certainly the team, when you're looking at like team fits, I would say like anyone that's going to be height, weight speed specific. So anybody that comes from like the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Parcells tree, right? So, you know, all of those GMs, you probably remove McCreery from, from those situations from, in terms of their draft board. But I think when you look at, you know, whether it's man or zone, I think he's got that. And he played inside as well at times. So I think that he's got some of that flexibility, uh, whether it's man or zone. I don't think that there's a scheme deficiency. I think it's more about just fit in terms of

of what the decision makers are looking for for each of these clubs. All right. The last guy you wanted to talk about, Marcus Jones from Houston, Trey, you're most excited about with Marcus Jones. I would say just playmaking ability, and that's twofold, both defense and special teams. This is a guy that has scored nine touchdowns on special teams, six kick return and three punt return, but he also had five picks and 13 PBUs this year as a senior. So this is a guy that's creating big plays on defense, creating big plays on special teams.

he's got the same exact arm length as as McCreary. And so there are going to be two corners that have sub 29 inch arms that are drafted, very likely by the end of day two when it comes to when it comes to the draft next week. He's 5-8-8, though. That's the difference between him in McCreary. He's 5-8-177, which would lead you to believe, I mean, that's the weakness right there, right? He doesn't have traditional size, doesn't have traditional length, would lead you to think that he's probably a slot player in the NFL.

What do we think about this? Because we talked about this in the defensive trend show. We did a couple weeks ago, the idea that more and more teams are putting bigger players in the slot for a bunch of different reasons. You need that player to be a run defender, matchup concerns, all of that kind of stuff. Are you worried about what a 5-8-175-pound, 180-pound corner looks like in a world where these slot defenders are getting a little bit bigger by necessity? I would say to me, whenever we start talking about the measurement stuff, it's not a problem until it's a problem. And now there's going to be a little bit of a jump in competition coming from the AAC at Houston up to the NFL. He's not going to be saying the same level of ball carrier, the same level of receiver.

But this is a guy that had a really impressive number in terms of mistackle rate in the NFL. In college, only 7.5% mistackle rate according to PFF. And that's a very strong number. So I think when you look at Marcus Jones, he has been a willing tackler, a very good form tackler, a very competitive run defender overall. And so that hasn't necessarily been a huge concern. And we were still seeing some smaller slot corners come in and have success. When you talk about all the athletic traits, he would have been one of the better testers in this position group at the combine.

I would have been surprised if he wasn't. And that's from a top end linear athlete speed standpoint, but also lateral quickness and all of the things you're looking for from the shuttle standpoint as well. Just a really smooth, fluid athlete across the board. Elijah Moulton's bigger than him. Yes. But Elijah Moulton is a five and nine and a half short-armed corner that came in and played the slot last year very well. well and his profile as a player coming in, great ball production. When you're that close to the ball player, that ball production from college and a willingness

to defend the run, those things often translate. Yeah. And so if you have those, even if you're in a slightly smaller package, I can understand talking yourself into that. It's funny. So we're not talking safeties in this discussion, but there's a safety that kind of, I wrote down Elijah Molden while watching him. That's Jalen Petrie.

And his product is from Baylor, the safety for this class. his production, like in terms of TFLs, sacks, forced fumbles, just like out of this world better than any safety draft in the last 10 years. Like if you were just to add up those three, because I'll look out, I'll break production up for safeties in the two different buckets. There's like the ball production in the past game, the interception and PbUs, and then those other three categories I look at and in terms of sacks, TFLs, and forced fumbles.

If you add all of those up for Jaylen Petrie, he had 48 of those plays over the course of his career. I think the highest draft in the last. 10 years before that was like 37 or something like that. It was like insane way over the top in terms of his overall production. Elijah Molden was a guy. And he's played in the slot more off than not. He's played in the slot and in the box, he's close to the football.

So he's put in position to rack up that production. But that's a guy that's always around the football. Yeah, sign me up for that. That's the exact kind of player at that spot that I want. Fran Duffy, thank you very much, my friend. I really appreciate you doing this. Tell the people where they can check out some of your work. Sure.

You can check me out on Twitter at Eagles XXOs. check out the journey of the draft podcast. We are on twice weekly year round covering the draft, player evaluation, the entire process. We go through the college football season. Our buddy, Dane Bruehler, is on every single week with me throughout the entire calendar year. We have a lot of great rotation of guests, Gross Tucker, Greg Kosell, Ben Fennell's on with me every, pretty much every single episode. So it's a fun show talking through the entire process. Really appreciate the time, buddy's great chat with you. Thanks, man. All right, guys, that's all we got today. Thank you to Marvin Lewis.

Thank you to Fran Duffy. A reminder to all of you. Next week, next Thursday night, live from Las Vegas. Dane Bruegler, Nate Tice, I will also be there. We're doing a draft show. Round one on Thursday night, you can catch it wherever you watch videos. YouTube, Twitter, we're going to be coming to you the entire first round. Friday, we'll be back for rounds two and three.

Live every single pick reacting to all of those on Friday night. We're going to bring in our friends, Deante Lee, Z. Jones, some of our team writers, please come join us. We are really looking forward to it. We think it's going to be a really fun couple nights with love for you guys to be a part of it. So be on the lookout for that. In the meantime, Dane and Lance will be back tomorrow. I will be back on Thursday with some other fun guests. For now, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you later.