The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Damien Harris on the state of the NFL RB + the end of the Bill Belichick era

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

Robert Mays is joined by former RB Damien Harris to discuss the state of running backs in the NFL. They dive deep into the position before examining the end of the Bill Belichick era in New England. Damien talks about his days with the Patriots and playing with Tom Brady, what he believes happened with Mac Jones and much more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Damian Harris, former New England Patriots running back, former Buffalo Bills running back, recently retired, joined us to talk about a whole bunch of stuff. We got to discuss the running back market

and the changes in the running back market from somebody who played the position and was a free agent last year when things kind of reached their nearer when guys like Saquan Barkley and Josh Jacobs didn't get deals. So really great to get his perspective on just the state of the position in the NFL, but also really great to get his perspective on what happened in New England over the last few years. He had a front row seat to that entire Matt Patricia, Joe Judge experience and

everything that happened with Mack Jones, his thing started deteriorate over there. I think some perspective, some insight, and some details about how that went that we probably haven't gotten for many other people here over the last couple years. So I am very excited for you guys to hear his thoughts on the final days of the Belichick era and New England and everything that went along with it. Also, just one more thing to keep in mind, we recorded this discussion with Damien

before the news about Christian McCaffrey's extension came down. So just something to keep in mind while we're having that running back value, running back contract discussion. Obviously, that throws a little bit of a wrench into it, but we did not know about it when we were digging into everything. So let's get to Damien. Joining us now, it is a former NFL running back.

Damien Harris. Damien, how you doing, man? Man, I'm blessed and highly favorite. How you doing? I'm doing wonderful. Back from vacation, excited to be back having these conversations. A little quieter time in the offseason now. OTA's winding down.

What did you typically do in that six weeks? Did you get away for the whole time? How did you treat the post-OTA's pre-training camp stretch in the NFL calendar? Um, you know, you definitely want to enjoy it, right? because, you know, especially when I played in New England, you know, Bill Belichick used to always say, you know, once August gets here, you basically take everything else that's important to you. You put it in a drawer and you don't open that drawer until February, hopefully. So, you know, I always just tried to maximize that time, you know, whether it be trying to see my family, you know, trying to just escape and kind of unplug at times, you know, go somewhere nice, kind of enjoy myself, you know, just anything I could do to just enjoy some time off because, you know, it's this craft, you know, You know, the game of football, sports in general, I mean, you just put so much into it. So really, any time you get some time off, you want to enjoy it. So, you know, I just tried to get away as much as I can, you know, take my mind away from football.

But while also, you know, trying to work out and trying to maintain, you know, being in shape because that's the worst thing that could happen is, you know, you got some guys who, you know, after OTAs and mini camp and all this stuff, they don't really do anything for six weeks. And then they come back to training camp. And it's like, pulled hamstring here, pulled quad there, you know, missed your conditioning test. You don't make weight. So, you know, you definitely want to enjoy yourself, but you definitely want to keep yourself in the right train of thought and the right, you know, the right routine. You know, it's all about having a routine in the National Football League.

So, you know, as long as I can stay in my routine, you know, I was going to see how I could have fun and stay in my routine at the same time. This is the first year in a while that you haven't been prepping to play an NFL season at this stage of the calendar. You retired a couple months ago. And your retirement announcement, I thought you said something that was really pointing it.

You said you were grateful that you found the strength to walk away from the game. because I'm sure that wasn't easy. Ultimately, what made that decision, what led you to that decision, and when you decided to do it, like how did it feel in the moment to say that and to kind of ultimately land there?

Yeah, you know, it was a whole surreal situation. I mean, obviously, like, the decision came because of, you know, the injury that I had last year, you know, where I messed up my neck pretty good. And, you know, ultimately, that just wasn't something that I could come back from. And, you know, in that statement that I made, you know, having the strength to walk away,

And, you know, the reason why I thought it was important to say that was because, you know, I see a lot of guys. You know, I play with a lot of guys. And you see it all the time. Guys who, you know, chase that dream for, unfortunately, way too long. And they put their bodies through too much. They put their minds and their brains through too much. You know, whenever their career is basically telling them, tell them that it's over. You know what I mean? And, you know, for me, I never wanted to be that guy. Like, once my time was up, I wanted to have the mental fortitude to be ready to move forward. And, you know, luckily, you know, the injury, like, obviously that wasn't a fortunate situation, but it came at the most perfect time because, you know, I just got married and, you know, my wife was pregnant and, you know, now we have a two-month-old son. So, you know, I was really just able to have that mental fortitude to shift my focus from, okay, something that I have loved for 20 years, something that I've given all my attention, you know, every ounce of my being to for the past 20 years, you know, I can flip that page because I got a beautiful two-month-old son. I got a wonderful,

wife, got a beautiful home, and there's so much life left to live. Every day, every morning, whenever my son wakes up, you know, and he opens his eyes. I'm just like, man, this is, this right here is the life that I want to impact. You know, my life is, you know, I've already accomplished so many things and has so many experiences and been able to do so many things, me, so many people have so many different experiences. And now when I look at my son, like, that's the life that I want to, that I want to impact. That's the life that I really want to touch and mold and, you know, help become, you know, a great person. Not just, I'm not looking for my son to be a great football player.

I'm not looking for him to be this out of this. I'm looking for him to be a great human being. And everything that comes with that is extra. So, you know, like I said, God bless me with an amazing foundation here at home. And, you know, it really allowed me to mentally process, you know, what was happening and be able to move forward and move on and, you know, just start living a normal life. Shoot, the whole season's all season to me now. So, and, you know, like I said, I'm just so grateful.

You know, I said that when I retired, you know, expressing gratitude is what I'm all about right now. You know, I'm grateful for all the time that I have playing ball and, you know, like I said, all the experiences that I have. But, you know, that time comes for everybody and, you know, my time came. And so because of, you know, the mental fortitude, because of, you know, all the great things in my life, I was just really able to flip that page. It's always interesting to me to talk to people in moments in transition, just because

there's a lot of reflection that goes on. You're kind of taking stock of everything. As you look back and not just your NFL career, not just the years you spend the NFL, But from the time you started playing until the time you stopped, if you could do one thing differently as it relates to football, what would it have been? Man, nothing. Absolutely.

Nothing. Not a single thing. Not a single thing. And because obviously I thought about it. Like, you know, okay, my career is over. Like, you know, just for shits and kids, you know, what can I think about if I'd done this differently, maybe this would have happened? If I'd done this differently, maybe this would have happened.

But, dude, I was so blessed, man. I came from middle of nowhere, Brassfield, Kentucky. I was fortunate enough to be the number one running back coming out of high school. I was fortunate enough to play for Nick Seventh, the University of Alabama, when there were two national championships, three SEC championships. I was able to be drafted by the world's greatest New England Patriots. I got to play with Tom Brady for a year. I got to be coached by Bill Belichick.

Then I went on to play with Josh Allen, Stefan Diggs, you know, Coach McDermott, McDermott, Buffalo Bills. I mean, if anything, I can say, oh, maybe I wish that I hadn't hurt my neck last year. And that's out of your control, though. I mean, that has nothing to do with anything you could have done. Other than that, nothing, dude. Like I said, dude, I'm so grateful for just the opportunities that I had, man. You know, like I said, looking back to where I came from to where I am now and, you know, the, not just the experiences, but now, like, the effects that I have, the platform that I have, you know, the ability that I have to connect with people, the ability that I have to, you know, speak up for certain people.

And, you know, voice and opinion that, you know, might not be heard if somebody else says it, you know. I just, there's so many parts of this, this journey of life and so many things that this game of football has done for me and brought for me that I really cannot look back and say, I would change a single thing. I mean, I love the life that I lived. I love every second of my career. I enjoyed every second of it, you know, even the hard times, you know, it wasn't always easy playing for Nick Savant and Bill Belichick, you know what I mean? But every single thing that happened from the time that I was eight years old until the moment I'm sitting in front of you today, dude, I've just been so grateful and so fortunate. You know, with the exception of one, you know, one major injury. But even with that, like I said, you know, that's kind of helped me transition into being, you know, a very present husband, a very present father, a very present, you know, a very present, you know, a member of the community. You know, I'm looking to do my first kids camp back at home back in Richmond, Kentucky. So, you know, I'm just, dude, I'm blessed. You know what I mean? I know I sound like a record, a broken record, but I don't have anything that I wish I could go back and change.

I just, I'm loving life and, you know, everything that God is. brought me through the game of football, through life in general. And, you know, every day I'm just looking at, you know, how can I continue to be a better version of myself? How can I positively affect people, you know, obviously alongside being the best dad and husband that I can be? All right. Let's look back at some of those connections, some of those relationships you had with those people. As you go back through the, I don't know how long you play football, 10, 15 years, what would you say, if it was 20 years playing football? What would you say is the best, whether it's a piece of advice, a little nugget of wisdom that you got from those

pretty heavy hitters that you managed to come across during your entire career. Yeah. I don't even know if this is... Usually I wouldn't share this, but, you know, this is true. So back when I was at Alabama and, you know, we had Scott Cochran as our strength coach, the best piece of advice that he always gave us. And it was, you know, no matter what the terms of in the weight room on the field, whether it be not, you know, showing up to study hall, not going to class,

he would always look at you and say, be a pro not a hope. And that was some of the realest advice that I ever got, you know, because even, you know, in college, you know, they were teaching us to be professional, right? And not just professional football players, but everything you do, be professional at it. When you ever you're supposed to go to class, be professional, show up on time, be respectful, give the, you know, give the teachers, give the administrators, you're full of undivated attention and just be professional. Or if you're out doing community service, doing work in the community, be professional, be polite, be available, you know, so on and so forth. So, you know, at an early, age when I was 18 years old and got to Tuscaloosa. And the first time I heard him say, be a pro, not a hoe, I was like, oh, wait a minute. Okay. I like, first of all, I was like, okay, I like that. Be a pro not a whole. It's catchy. You know what I mean? But then, you know, obviously, once you get past, you know, how funny it is, then it's like, okay, seriously, like there's two ways to do it. There's either being a pro or there's not. You know what I mean? So be a pro. Just be a pro. And so, you know, that helped me with my transition from Alabama to New

England and then New England to Buffalo and then ultimately Buffalo to now, you know, just trying to be professional in everything that I do at all times, you know, whether somebody's watching me or not, whether I'm on camera or not, you know, just be a professional at absolutely every aspect of my life. Yeah, that's a good one. It's very simple. It cuts, it cuts through the noise. It sticks with you. It's concise. I appreciate that. That's something that I think a lot of people could take and move forward with. All right. I want to have a conversation with you that I've had, I don't know, 100 times on various podcasts over the black. Well, the difference is, we've talked on every show I've ever done over the last decade or

so. You know, the first football podcast I ever hosted was in 2011. And if you think about the way the game was in 2011 to the way the game is now, we have hit every step of the running back value discourse over those 13 years. But in all those conversations I've had about the devaluation of the position, how do you understand it's fit within the modern game. I've never had that conversation in a platform like this with somebody who played the position in the NFL.

So I want to go back about a year, you know, March, June, July of 2023, when you were a free agent, but there was also everything happening with that entire group of guys, Sequin, Josh Jacobs, Tony Pollard, who had fantastic seasons and ultimately didn't get multi-year contracts. So as you were kind of setting back and thinking about your next step and about the market for all of those guys. Was there a moment as all of that was happening where you finally just said, come on. Like, this is just gone too far. Was there a breaking point anywhere along the way? Absolutely. Because I remember, you know, last offseason when I was going through free agency and,

you know, nobody was really signing multi-year deals. Nobody was really getting, you know, high-level extensions. And I was even talking to my agent like, yo, what's going on? Because it was such a, it was such a surprise because I remember that was supposed to be. the class that was supposed to reset the running back market. Like, everybody was looking at, you know, my class that was, you know, coming up in free agency. Like, this is going to be the class that kind of reshapes the market for the running back position. They're going to get guys more paid or paid more. They're going to get guys, you know, more guaranteed money, more extended deals, you know, so on and so forth.

And it just wasn't happening. And it wasn't because obviously my phone wasn't ringing. And so I was in touch with my agent, like, you know, what's going on? And he's like, bro, nobody's phones are ringing because just the market is just not doing what everybody thought it was going to do. And it was the weirdest thing, you know, for a lack of better words, I didn't really, you know, describe it as that at the time. I thought it was a bunch of bullshit. But, you know, it was just the strangest thing because you got all these guys who were expected to do it. So then basically all these teams gave them a tryout year and then eventually

paid them anyways. But when you do that, then you only have, you know, a couple guys who are getting paid, you know, versus in my class, it was supposed to be like start with the guys up here. And then we're supposed to trickle all the way down, and a lot of guys were supposed to benefit from that. But, you know, that's the thing with the league, unfortunately. Like, with running backs, it's like, okay, you've been a great player for three or four years. Okay, prove it again because you just have to. One, we're not going to pay you. We're going to send you somewhere else, and they're probably not going to pay you.

So you just got to keep proving yourself year after year after year. And then once you finally get to the level of proving yourself, then they're like, oh, shit, well, you're too old now. And now your career is going to start going like this. So you work so hard to prove you. yourself. And once you get to the mountain top of like, okay, finally, like, finally I'm about to get what was owed to me. And then they look at you and they're like, ah, you know, you've been in the league for about five years now, six years now, you know, you've already kind of surpassed the average lifespan of a running back. So you probably, at any year now, you could be your last year and

you could be gone. So it's such a weird, such a weird dynamic, man. You know, obviously it was great to see Sequin get paid, Josh Jacobs got paid, Miles Sanders got paid, DeAndre Swift got paid, you know, they all got Tony Pollard. It was a good year. Tony Pollard got that deal. Mixing got a new contract. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've seen some guys get some good deals, but it's such a like, there's so much,

I don't want to say politics, but it's almost like there's so much politics that goes into it, right? Because you have some teams who are like, you know what, I'm going to pay my back. Like, this is my guy. I'm going to pay him. I'm going to keep them. And I think that kind of ended in like the kind of like the Todd Gurley age. And, you know, that's when it kind of started to transition out.

And now you've just got teams who are just like, prove it, prove it, prove it, prove it. That's what a franchise tag is. It's just a prove it. They're willing to show you out, you know, one year worth a good dough to prove it to hope that, okay, this is going to be his last good year. And then after this, we won't have to pay them anymore. So essentially, we give them one good year as opposed to one big long lucrative contract. And if you look at it, even the guys that got deals over the last year or so,

Jonathan Taylor, Sequin, Josh Jacobs. Sequin's deal, I think it's like 14-ish million a year, that's less than 5% of the current salary cap. If you look at the deal that CMC got when he signed it, that's like 8.1, and Camara is at 7.6. And the Jonathan Taylor contract is really just like a slight improvement on what the Nick Chub deal was three or four years ago. So even these guys who are getting rewarded at quote unquote what has become the top of the market, it's a significant decline from what guys were getting three or four years ago. And I think the general conventional wisdom about this is running backs are replaceable. You can find them. There are guys that you can slot in and you can get them in the third, fourth round.

With that discourse and that mindset of viewing the position, what do you think people are missing about some of the guys that can transcend that idea? Well, I think of a guy like Sequan Barkley, right? And so obviously, like, Sequin is an incredibly, incredibly, incredibly talented guy, right? When he's got the ball in his hands, he's electric, right? But then you also got to think, okay, well, how many times the defense is going to line up in an eight-man box because they don't want Sequin to rush for 150 yards? And you got two receivers streaking down the field. You got a quarterback that can get on the ball.

I mean, that completely shapes a game plan. That completely changes what a defense is going to throw at you. Or so you got the same Sequin who, obviously, like I said, electric with the ball in his hands, but who's going to protect Daniel Jones or, you know, in this case, Jalen hurts. So he can throw to A.J. Brown. Like there are so many things that running backs do that are transformative to the entire game of football. Don't get me wrong. It's 100% a quarterback driven league. I get that.

But at the same time, you have to have one-a-run game to balance out your run-pass option. You got to have a running back that's going to at least draw the attention of a defense. You want a seven-man box. You want an eight-man box. Then what does that set up? That sets up your play action because as soon as you fake to somebody like Sequin, all through your linebackers are going to go shooting the gaps. Like, oh, I got to go hit this dude. I got to fill my gap.

I got gap responsibility. I got to do this. Oh, snap. The quarterback still got the ball on his hand. So then what do they do? They just turn and run. And, like, that's what linebackers do. They just turn and run.

They just turn and run, trying to find a receiver to cover. And by that time, when you've got guys like, A.J. Brown, Devonte Smith, like, just the plethora of options that Philly has, that transform and a complete game plan. As a defensive coordinator, okay, do we want to stop Sequan from running the ball? Do you want to sit back and let our coverage hands? handle the deep part of the field and then let Sequan run for 150 yards. What are we going to do every time he play actions? What are we going to do whenever they run screens? That's what goes on through a defensive coordinator's mind.

A defensive coordinator is not going to sit and look at a receiver and be like, okay, I have to design my entire game plan around this guy. If anything, he's going to be like, we're going to run one double 11, which is two guys covered A.J. Brown. And that's it. Bill Belichick Special. Yeah. You know what I mean?

It's nothing. You got you designate two guys to him, try to, eliminate them from the other half of the field, that's it. But you got such a dynamic player at running back who can not only run the ball, can catch out of the backfield, can block, can bring, draw defenders and play action. Like, you literally have to base your entire game plan around this guy. So whenever you think about it in terms like that,

why are running back so undervalued? I think a lot of it, the argument that people would make is a lot of those resources and a lot of the defensive structures that teams kind of match with are based on personnel and based on alignment, right? If you're using 12, 13 personnel, we're going to line up with heavy personnel, we're going to put more guys down in the box.

But I think that framing of it, where it's really just X's and O's on a chalkboard. X's and O's. Is dismissing the human elements of this. And the example I go back to is you look at like the 2019 Titans and like what that play action, that downhill play action game looked like.

If you're the Mike Linebacker, it is a different sort of mindset when that's a 250-pound Derrick Henry back there and they're under center and you have to worry about him coming at you with a full head of steam rather than you actually trying to meet him in the hole. There's something about that that it has to be in the back of your mind. And I remember talking to a couple of Lions players at the Super Bowl about the way they approach the Niners. And if you look at the defenses that the Niners play against, the amount of cover three, the amount of heavy boxes, some of that is structural,

right? 21 personnel, that's how you're going to match it. But at the same time, those guys have CMC in the back of their heads before the game even starts. And I think those are some of the more ineffable qualities of this and the hard to define and hard to pin down elements of it where there are human aspects to this that probably have more value and more impact than we can understand based on the way that we think about the position. 100%. Because, you know, to your point, I remember Bill Belichet used to tell us all the time, don't

go out there and be robots. Don't just run, you know, the line on the piece of paper. Like, use your instincts, use your eyes, use your. you know, whatever God blessed you with to play this game, use it. So naturally, like, yes, you're saying like, okay, well, if there's 12 personnel out there, this personnel is going to be out there on defense. If this, you know, if this guy's lined up here, this guy's signed up here. But as football players, if we're using our instincts, like if I'm a middle linebacker,

I don't care what personnel is out there. If Derek Henry's in the backfield, like you just said, this is what's going on through my mind. As soon as he steps downhill, I got to start running because I got to hit him before he hits me, right? Or same with Christian McCafford. even if you're not thinking like, oh, I got to go thunk this dude, like, okay, well, if he just has a sliver, like a sliver of space, like he can make you miss in a phone boot. You know what I'm saying? He can make a mish tack on a phone booth. So he's just got that little sliver space. So I got to react like right now. But like you said, that's not because they're in 12 personnel. That's because Chris McCaffrey's in the back of us, because Sequin Bartley's in the back house, because Derek Henry's in the backfield. Like, like you said, there's a human element to this. Like we're not, I say we, I don't play no more. But all players are not.

You're still a member of the fraternity, the running back fraternity. I am 100%. But football players aren't robots. It's not going to be like, okay, they're in 12 personnel. Let me just key the exact personnel they're in in in this exact formation. And like, okay, that's it. Like, no, T.J. Y, right? I'll take this as an example.

Whenever we play the Steelers, T.J. Watt will line up all over the field. So it didn't matter what defensive personnel they were in. It didn't matter what front they were in because it's like, okay, if T.J. If T.J. Watt is on the left side. If T.J. Watt's on the right side, then we might need to chip or help on this. So we might need to tie it in the jam or something like that. So to your point, you're 100% correct. I think people are missing the human element of what does Seekuan bring to the field

and how does that affect the team that he's playing? Like, just playing it's simple. When you were, a slight pivot here, because I wanted to ask you about this with T.J. Watang. In New England, which defensive player do you think sucked up the most oxygen as you game plan for them? The guy that was just kind of loomed the largest in the week before a game during your time there. Yeah.

Yeah, who, man, we play some guys. A couple times when we played the Browns and, you know, we had to face Miles Garrett, and it was just like, dude, this is just going to be a problem and a half. Like, this dude is going to be an absolute problem. And, like, we would do that. Like, every week when, you know, wherever we would play teams, like, as soon as we would sit down in our first kind of, like, overview of the team we were playing, like Josh Daniels, you know, when I was in doing that he would circle,

this guy is the guy we cannot let him wreck our game. Like we cannot let him wreck our game. Like I said, Miles Garrett sometimes. Mason, I would say, not Mason, Max Crosby probably was like the guy of guys because he has like a supernatural motor. Like his skill set is off the charts. Don't get me wrong.

Like he's got the same skill set as every elite pass rusher, you know, and the recent memory. But dude, his motor. I've never seen a guy with a motor like this guy. And that's what we would say. Like, you can block him with two or three guys. You literally cannot block him. block him, or you can't stop blocking him until you're going back to the huddle.

Because he will find a way to get to the ball if you let him, if you turn him loose for a split second. So I really don't think we appreciate what he is right now. The fact that he's playing a thousand snaps a year, he never leaves the field. He's as impactful and as scary on early downs because I think he gets as much enjoyment of a blowing up a run play as he does out of a sack. Elite run setter. Like when it comes to setting the edge, like he's a little.

I remember it was funny. It was we played Vegas when I was in Buffalo last year, and I had a run on third. And I think it was like third and two, but I ended up, like, busting it for, you know, a decent game, like 20 yards. But the only reason I did that was because he blew through the line of scrimmage so fast. By the time I got the ball, like, I actually had a split second to make a move because it happened so fast. Like as soon as I got the ball. I was like, oh, shit, I got to go over here. And, you know, he penetrated so well that he just collapsed that entire side.

Luckily, you know, I was able to make a move and get around him. but like that dude is like he's super supernatural like I said his ability but his motor that's what makes him different and that's something that can't be coached it can't be taught you're born with that and I think that he he takes the he takes the pass rushing game and just playing the edge playing the position of an edge rusher he takes it to a whole other level going back to the running back value thing for a second because I wanted to ask you this is somebody who understands every little nuance of how this works I think for some people on the outside there's an understanding that okay or an idea that the offensive line drives this, right?

The offensive line is the engine of most running games. What can a running back do to make the guys in front of him better, or to put this another way, maybe transcend what is blocked for him? What are the things that maybe were missing that allows specific guys to do those two things? You got to think the way they think. You have to look at the... First of all, you have to understand the run schemes the way that they understand it. Because, to be honest, it's not coach the same.

It's two totally different positions, whether it's offensive line and running back. You know, they're taught differently. It's not necessarily the same. But you have to find a way to find that middle ground. And what I would always do is, you know, even in college, like, I remember when Brink Key was our offensive line coach at Alabama. Like, I just went in, I just went in the run. Whenever we had run game meetings, I would urge our running back coach, like, please let us go in there and watch, watch film, let us do whatever we need to do, whatever install, you know, going over the run schemes, whatever. Let's go do with the offensive line.

And so we started doing that. And then, you know, I realized as I got to the league, you know, that was really kind of how it was done. Whenever you do run game meetings, it would be running backs would sit down with Olin. Whatever the play was, they'd show it on the screen. Then the O line would make their calls. And then the running backs would be like, okay, I see it this way. Like if you want to block it this way, whenever you hit this, I'm ready to do that. Or whenever, you know, I get the ball and I take this fifth step, I'm expecting you to be here.

So it's a little bit of give and take, right? What do the offensive line think? what is there, like how do they see the game? But also, you know, we're the guys with the ball in our hands. So, you know, we kind of have some say-so too. But, you know, once you have that relationship and, you know, I've seen guys where, you know, running backs, where they come in and they're just like, listen, this is how I want it, black, this is how I want this, this is how I want that.

Like, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this. And so either block it this way or we're going to find new linemen. And everybody's looking at them like, that's probably not the note you want to start that on. Right, right. But I've also, I've also been places where, you know, I've seen offensive. of line, you know, they like to kind of dictate the running lanes and they like to dictate where they think the ball should go. And although that might be true as a runner, like, not only am I seeing that, but I'm also feeling what's going on, you know, from sideline to sideline.

You know, I'm also looking at the linebackers. I'm looking at the safeties, you know, back 20 yards deep. So it's like, yeah, you might have blocked it and you might have thought the hole was right there. But based on what I saw, I had to take it come back. And you blocked it to go right, you know, B gap on the right side, but I got to take it D gap all the way on the left side. But see, that's where you got to have that camaraderie. You got to have that trust that way. You can go after a drive, sit on the bench and be like, all right, this is what I saw. And I just, this is what I had to do. They look at me and be like, all right, yeah, you trust your eyes. We're going to block for you. We're going to do this. You know, you use your eyes, use your

instincts, whatever. And then I vice versa. I'd be like, okay, I might have missed the hole right here because I thought I saw something or I felt something that wasn't really right, I need to just trust you guys a little bit more. You guys are doing your thing up front. You guys are to anchor. You guys are setting the identity. You guys are setting the line of scrimmage. I need to follow you guys.

So a lot of give and take, a lot of film sessions, a lot of backdoor cookouts and, you know, hangouts and stuff like that, you know. But that's what is so great about this game, you know, not even to pivot away from the question. But that's what's so great about the game of football is, you know, the camaraderie that you can build, the brotherhood that you can build. And, you know, through football, you can learn more about guys outside of football and spending time of guys outside of football can build your bond on the football field. So it's just such a transparent game.

You know, what you get into it is what you put out. If you bring good energy and, you know, you're willing to work and, you know, be, not coachable, but be able to adapt and adjust with the guys around you and vice versa. You know, that's what's made up some of the best teams that I've been on. I want to get a little bit granular here because I'm curious about this. As we move away from maybe the physical talent aspects of the position, explosion, strength, things like that, what do you think is the hardest aspect of the position to hone that maybe is a little less physical? I know vision is such a nebulous word, but is it aiming points and kind of timing in the zone run game? Is it understanding how things are going to unfold in front of you in Gap scheme runs?

What is the element of playing running back that you think takes the longest to kind of hone that has nothing to do with the physical side of it? I think your ability to balance when to use your instinct versus when to use your coaching. I think that that is the most because to me, other than quarterback, running back is the most reactionary position. If you're a receiver, you've got a route, you run it at this depth or you convert versus this, right? But with running back, it's like I said, the pole can be blocked over here and you got to go over here. you know, they like to, they want running backs to be able to play all over the field, right? So you got to be able to do this. You got to be able to play receiver. You've got to be able to play all these different types of positions. And there's just so many things that can go on in

your mind. And it's like, okay, when do I listen to my coaching and when do I just use my instincts? Because there have been times where I've done exactly what I've been coached to do and got MFed, you know, because it's like, well, why did you do that? And I'm like, well, I thought I was supposed to do that based on you. Like, well, don't be a, don't be an idiot. Don't be a robot. Like, just because I say, go jump off a bridge, I don't mean you're going to do it. But then there have also been times where I've made a humongous play using nothing but instincts, gone exactly where the ball wasn't supposed to go and had a huge success. And there have been times where I've been coached like, okay, yeah, that worked out that one time. But that just because it

worked out that one time doesn't mean that it's going to work out every time. That's why you have coaches. That's why you have rules. That's why you have X, Y, and Z. So, I, I think for running backs, the biggest thing is trying to differentiate when do I use my instincts versus when do I just revert back to my coaching? Because like I said, as soon as that ball turns over, like there ain't much time to think. So you either got to do one or the other. Instincts or coach. And so that's my question. Can you learn that? Or is that just something that's innate? That's just innate. You either have that or you don't. And truly, I think so because, you know, some guys are just wired to be like, okay, I've been coached to do this.

this is what I'm going to do. Come hell or high water, I can't be wrong if I'm doing what I'm told. So that's what I'm going to do. And then you got some guys who are just like, man, God bless me to do this. I got to the NFL without you. I got here without you. And I'm still going to be me without you. So as long as I'm playing ball, I'm going to play it my way.

I'm going to use my instincts and I'm going to do it kind of how I see fit. And you have, you see guys having success both ways. So, you know, it's really, it depends on the guy from guy to guy. I like to be right in the middle of both. I love to do, you know, what I would. was coached to do, but at the same time, I knew I had great instincts, and I like to use them. So it's really just over time. I mean, maybe you can develop it, but it's usually you're one of the other. Yeah, it's a field thing. And I think that you see that with certain guys. This

would be hard to answer because you're not in the room and you don't know whether it's one or the other. But as you're looking at guys in the league right now, who stands out as somebody that you think has a really good understanding of when to choose one or the other? Oh, you put me right on the spot. Honestly, I would go Josh Jacobs, truly, because I saw it when I played with him. But I also, I've watched this guy. I've loved watching them ever since, you know, obviously we graduated and, you know, one of our separate ways.

But Josh has always been so good at, like, if there's a hole there, if it's, if the player is blocked perfectly and the hole is there and it's exactly where it's coached to be, he's going to hit it and he's going to take it for an 80-yard touchdown if you can. But I've also seen Josh take some absolutely, like, crazy, crazy pass of the most resistance. And next thing, you know, he's making six or seven missed tackles and ended up gaining 35 yards. And everybody's like, that's one of the best runs I've ever seen. So I would definitely look at Josh Jacobs. Josh is a guy who is very much, you know, he very much so does, you know, exactly what's needed within the scheme.

He does exactly what's needed within, you know, whether he was. in Vegas, whether it was in Alabama, and I'm sure what's going to be in Green Bay. You know, whatever fits their system, whatever fits their scheme, he can provide that. But that's another thing about Josh is he's got such an explosive element of just using his instincts and his God-given ability that if there's no play, like if you run 10 plays and all 10 of them are busted plays, I would guarantee you about five or six of them, he'll make a huge play out of it just because he's instinctual, he's crafty, he's explosive, and he just has that God-given just ability to just make plays.

You were having those conversations with the offensive liner sitting in some of those meetings, whether it be in Alabama or New England. What jumped out to you or what maybe popped up about the way that offensive linemen think or the way that they see the game that you wouldn't have understood before you started sitting in those meetings and being a part of those conversations? Well, you know, I might be exposing myself to a little football or not being as knowledge in the subject as, you know, I once should have been. But, you know, back in the day, I thought when I was, you know, growing up high school and, you know, before I really got to college, I was thinking, okay, tackles are coached to just play tackle.

Guards are taught just to play guard. Centers taught just to play center and so on and so forth. What surprised me was the tackle was supposed to know what the center was doing. The center is supposed to know what the guard was doing. The guard is supposed to know what the tackle was doing. But it was because they were all working cohesively. It wasn't because like, okay, well, I just need to know this dude's job just, you know, for shits and giggles. like, no, I need to know what he's doing because we're going to have a combination block because

the D tackles in a two-eye, not a two technique. So we're going to have to combo. And because there's other guys in a shade, that means on the backside, these guys are going to have this combination back there. And it was just like layers on layers on layers. I was like, whoa. Wait, what? So you mean to tell me that the left tackle knows what the right guard is doing if the ball's

going left? That's crazy to me. And so just once I, that was when I really started to unlawful. understand like just how much goes into the game of football. You know what I mean? Because, you know, being completely transparent, like growing up, you know, I was fortunate to just be able to just, if they handed me the ball, I was just running for a touchdown. You know what I mean? I was going find a way. I was zigzag 10, 15 times, but I find a way to get to the end zone. And, you know, once I got to college and truly once I started sitting with the offensive linemen, I feel like

that's when my knowledge of football really just took off. Was there something that you feel like you it took you a while to get down, whether that's, again, like aiming points, angles. What was the thing as you had to be a little bit more nuanced and thoughtful about the position that was the toughest part of a transition? Well, if you ever asked Josh McDaniels, my old offensive coordinator from New England,

he would tell you that I was the absolute worst inside zone runner because I could not turn my shoulders on my tracks and aiming points to save my life. And the thing is, I would be perfectly on track. I would be perfectly, I would be there at the exact perfect timing, but my shoulders, instead of being exactly parallel, we're just a little, just like, instead of going from here,

they're just like this, just a little cocked a little bit. And he would MF me and he would do it again, do it. You know what? Just get out. Just get out. Just get out. So I would say the tracks, the aiming points, and just the ultimate, like,

just the really small, fine-tuned details, small nuances of the NFL. And I think that would be at any position, because there's such a huge transition from college football to the NFL, just on every guy you play against in the NFL is the absolute, he was the best guy on his team, he was the best guy in his conference, he was one of the best players in the country. So in college, it's just like the best players on the best team usually win. But in the NFL, it's like you got the best players on all 32 NFL teams. So those nuances and those small details become incredibly,

incredibly important. So I think that just trying to shake the, okay, I am the best player and I just got drafted to, oh, wait, like, I got to be on top of all of my shit. Like literally every single step, like from counting steps in your head at practice to like, okay, I'm supposed to get the ball on my fifth step. Okay, one, two, three, four, okay, I got the ball. Like, just those small details like that. It's a hard transition, man. It really is. All right, let's chat a little bit about that New England coaching staff and about what the last couple years were like. When you saw that Bill Belichick did not get a job in this cycle, what was your initial reaction? I didn't know I wasn't surprised.

And listen, I'm not saying that to say anything bad about Bill Belichick, but I just wasn't surprised because he's been in one place for so long. And I think that just at the stage of his career that he's in, I think that he's in, I think that. that what he was expecting to be handed to him if he were going to be coaching again versus what people were willing to give him in retrospect, I think that maybe they just didn't align. And, you know, that's something that I could have, I could have obviously seen coming. Because, you know, Bill was like, Bill was the head coach, Bill was the GM. Bill was damn near the offensive coordinator, damn near the defensive coordinator, damn near the special teams coordinator, damn near this, damn near that.

And, you know, if he was going to go coach for another team, you know, it would have probably just been head coach, you know what I mean, or just been this or just been that. You know, he wouldn't have had the full range of control like he had in New England. So I think without that, you know, it's a little tough for him to just go somewhere and just be like, okay, I'm just feeling a spot. Like, I'm just filling this coach's spot. Like, he needs full, full on control. Like, that's just the kind of guy Bill Belichick is. But at the same time, can you blame him? because in the 20 years where he had full control,

he had a lot of success. So you can't blame him. I mean, you definitely can't blame him. When you saw how things worked in, let's say, a more traditional environment in Buffalo, where you have a head coach, you have a GM, the setup is just like it is around most of the NFL. How different did that feel day to day

than what it was like in New England during your time there? I felt like I was on a different planet, honestly. And the people, the people, you know, all the staff in Buffalo were so surprised at how surprised that I was. because the shit was so different. It was just like night and day different. Because like in New England, it was like usually, unless it was something like non-football related,

unless it was like some off the field stuff, you would just go to Bill. You know what I mean? Give me an example, something that maybe would sound strange to someone else, but in New England, that's what you did. You just went to Belichick about it. Um,

you, okay, I'll put it to you this way. So usually, so in Buffalo, whenever it's like, okay, if you want to understand why you're not playing, or if you want to understand why you're not here or there, you know, talk to your position coach. If you guys don't kind of work it out, if you're still feeling a little uneasy, then you can talk to the head coach

and then possibly the GM, right? So it's like tears of who you kind of go to because everybody is in charge of their own department, right? So a running back coach for Buffalo Bills, you know, he's going to determine how much I play. So if I got a problem with me not playing as much, I go to him. Whereas in New England, you know,

Bill has a little bit more say-so of like, okay, I want this running back in the game at this time. So if I'm a running back and I'm not necessarily happy with, you know, my reps, my playing time, then I just got to go straight to Bill Belichick's office and be like, hey, Mr. Mr. Coach Belichick, sir, why am I not playing? It's just intimidating, you know, as opposed to going to my running back coach. Like in Buffalo, I had a runback coach name. We call him Skip, Skip with a flipper, one of the coolest dudes I ever been around. And you can just go and be like, shoot the shit with like.

skip, yo. Like, what's up? Why am I not playing? Like, tell me something. Tell me what I need to do, tell me what I need to fix, you know, whatever. Like, oh, man, you know, maybe, maybe some of this, or you know what I'm saying, or maybe, you know, the season, the roles get defined. They're like, you know, blah, blah, blah, who this at the third. Whereas it with Bill, it's like, you know, this, you're not doing this good enough and like, you know, this and blah, blah, blah. And it's hard, man. It's hard because, you know, like, I realize that once I got to Buffalo, there are people for everything as opposed to one person for everything. You know what I mean? So that was a big transition for me.

Do you think ultimately that became a problem where he's just spread a little bit too thin, especially when you consider how many people left the organization who had been pretty trustworthy lieutenants over time? I mean, it felt like beyond having that sort of purview, the people he could maybe lean on in some of those quieter moments started leaving at such a clip that there was even more that had been thrown onto his plate. Yeah. Um, I would, think of it as a spreading himself too thin. I would think of it more so of having, having an idea that, you know, obviously all the success that was had in New England was because of one person and it wasn't Tom Brady. And that one person was Bill Belichick. Because there were guys

like Matt Patricia, like Joe Judge, who left and went other places and, you know, whatever, however their situation worked out, they ended up coming back. And, you know, all of a sudden, Matt Patricia goes from defensive coordinator to offensive coordinator. Well, why is that? It's because we're all just pawns in Bill Belichick's game of monopoly, and we can all be moved, we can all be interchanged, we can all be

like, okay, well, you coached here all your life, screw that. You can go coach here because as long as you imply and instill what I am teaching, what I am coaching, then the team will have success. And I think that is what led to kind of the trouble starting to, you know, the tie starting to turn,

Troubles started to arise just because then you start putting, like, I will, and I'm going to die on this hill, and people might be upset with me, people might be happy with me, people might be somewhere in between. What happened to Mack Jones and New England was not because of Mack Jones. What happened in New England to Mac Jones was because of the fact you took away an offensive coordinator who coached him to be a pro bowler and almost coached us to winning our division with a rookie quarterback in his first year. And then you take whenever Josh McDaniels left, then you take Matt Patricia, who's coach defense his entire life, Joe Judge, who's been a special team's coach, you know, coach receivers at some point. And then you just throw him in there and be like, hey, coach this kid up. He's a first round pick. You know, but as long as you teach him what I say, everything's going to be fine. And shit won fine. Now Mac Jones is in Jacksonville. Now they're on to Drake May. You know, they're onto a whole. It's like Mac Jones, the breadth of Mac Jones in New England, it came and went. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, shouldn't have the way that it went. And the only reason that it did was because Bill Belichick being stuck in his ways was very much so, like, as long as I am here, as long as I am, along with Robert Kraft, the top dog at this organization, no matter who, no matter where, what position, where they coach, whatever, we will have success. I think that that kind of started with the, you know, with the Cam Newton

situation where we brought in Cam Newton because everybody was like, yo, W2, what the fuck is this? Why Cam Newton? Bill thought that he could make it work. It didn't really work. Then we drafted back. We had a hell of a year. That year, my third year in the league, his first year, had a hell of a year. Went on a seven-game win streak.

Started off Rock, started off kind of Rocky. Went on to win seven straight. At that time, we were kind of looking at ourselves, like, we might have a Super Bowl run right here. Like, as long as people keep playing well, you know, so on and so forth. And then the next year after that, you replace. Like I said, Josh McDaniels with Matt Patricia and Joe Judge, and then look at the year that we had that year. And then the following year,

and then now Mac Jones is all of a sudden gone. And I think that everybody can look at, you know, what I just said and ultimately look at it and just watch it for what it was and kind of say that maybe Bill Belichick did not do right by Mac Jones. Yeah, it's not like he was throwing to Randy Moss and West Walker that year either.

I mean, it was, I like Jacobi Myers. I think Jacobi Myers is a really solid NFL player. But Jacobi Myers was, by far the most targeted player on that team. And you guys finished sixth in points per game that year. I think it was a pretty remarkable achievement overall as an offense. Exactly. And to get to your point, because, see, that just got me worked up.

No, but I was going to ask you about this. So I'm glad that you decided to go down this hallway before I asked you to. Yeah. Well, what I was going to say is, you know, to your, what you just said, it's the same dudes that he was throwing to the next year when everybody was talking about. He didn't have anybody. He didn't have any help. Oh, well, Macdon's.

sucks because he doesn't have. Everybody made every excuse in the book for why Mack Jones was not having success other than, you know, what could be the obvious, right? The Bill Belichick, you know, kind of whatever that was. And like I said, from one year to the next,

nothing changed except for what Bill Belichick did. Like, obviously we lost Josh McDaniels. Like, that was beyond our control. But there are how many great offensive coordinators could we have gone out and gotten? Like, how many? Countless. Or just somebody who had been an offensive coordinator before. Who had been offensive. You could even go down to college. How many college, like, there's guys from college that get brought up to the NFL all the time. But then you bring a defensive coach, a special teams coach. And it just, it was a debacle. It was truly a debacle. When did you know? When did you know that it was just? Oh, we knew. We knew that. We knew before our first game. We knew during training camp. We knew. We knew. It was.

There were a lot of conversations between, you know, some of the leadership group in, you know, at the time. Like, I was one of those guys. And, you know, we just had a handful of guys that whenever problems or things kind of came around, you know, we would kind of sit down and talk about it and kind of handle it whatever. Now, granted, I was only in these meetings because once it started talking about offense, then that was when I was incorporated. You know, I wasn't like a captain or anything like that. But, you know, I remember OTAs, like mini camp. We were having these meetings. We were sitting around talking amongst each other like, yo, who's, how are we going to tell Bill that this shit ain't working?

Like, how are we going to tell Bill this shit is not working at all? I tell you a true story. Me and my running back coach got into it at the time. It was training camp and we were having, I think this was like right before our second. No, no, no. This was right before our first preseason game going into my last year in New England. And it was like, we were practicing. the defense was kicking our ass.

Not just every play, every practice. Like, every time we stepped on the field, defense was kicking our ass. And it was just day after day after day. And we were just getting tired of it on offense. And so finally, I just look at everyone. I'm like, what the fuck are we doing? We've got a game in three days. I don't care if it's a preseason game.

I don't care if it's a tune-up exhibition. We're going to be on live television with millions of people tuned in to watch us. And we look like this. We look like the bad news bears of the fucking NFL. And like, we're supposed to just be cool about it. And then, you know, at the time, it's like, well, we're figuring it out. We're figuring out. It's like, we have a game in three days.

We have a game in three days. I don't care that it's a preseason game. I don't care. Because at the end of the day, this is my job. I'm supposed to show up, perform, practice, do all this stuff. And like, I don't feel like I'm doing it at the best of my ability because of all of these. This isn't working. That isn't working.

So how am I supposed to go out and be the best version of myself? Because selfishly, I was going into a contract year. Not only did I want the team to have success. I want to have some success too. I wanted to get paid. You know what I'm saying? So I think that it was very obvious for a long time. And just being honest and a shit, Bill Belichick would probably tell you the same way.

If anybody had anything to say about it, it was a very, very quick, swift, shut the fuck up. I know what I'm doing. And that's it. What was the biggest disconnects? Like, the way an offense and the way offensive meetings and the way an offensive plan should work versus the way that it was working. What were the things that were most obviously missing? Structure. Structure, like just a correct offensive system being put in place.

What does that mean? It seemed essentially like, imagine I was playing mad. And I was flipping through Madden. And every time I saw a play and I ran it on Madden, I was like, oh, that works. Let me put it in my coaching playbook. And let me give that to a group of professional football players and create an offense with Madden plays. And let's just see if it works. Because I tell you, there were conversations that we had amongst each other where we genuinely felt like our intelligence as football players was being insulted.

like if you're going to present this to me and think that I'm going to go along with this and just think this is going to work like we would there would be times where we would be presented with information we would just be right off the bat like this shit ain't going to work this play that we're putting it it's just not it's not going to work I don't want to run it I don't like it it it's not going to work but there was just nothing that could be done or set about it because you know and rightfully so I'm not trying to take away from bill I'm not trying to say that he was wrong or you know whatever everybody has their opinion but Again, whenever you have somebody who has that much success for 20 years when they feel like they were the sole reason for it, I understand why he did what he did.

But ultimately, I feel like it led to us being at a disadvantage. And I felt like, you know, when players aren't confident in, you know, what's being coached of them, what's being presented to them, then we don't have confidence in ourselves. Then we don't have confidence against the guys that we're lining up against. And then obviously the result was what it was. we started losing games and then losing more games and then guys stopped playing as well. And then ultimately, you know, the Patriots and Bill Belichick ended up, you know, going separate ways. Let me betray my ignorance here. And I'm sure it's not as easy as this.

Why not try to just do your best to copy and paste what you guys did in 2021 and try to trot out the same sort of ideas, even if you didn't have the same person at the center of? Um, because this is an ego-driven business. And everybody's got, everybody's got egos. Everybody has, yeah, there's no other way to put it. Everybody's got egos. And that's what it was. It's just about the egos, man.

And, you know, if I had to guess, you know, obviously Josh McDaniels, and I can say this because obviously watching them play and, you know, whatever, like, he took that offense to Vegas. and, you know, he implied it there. And, you know, whatever, had success. Sometimes he didn't. But, you know, it could have just been a situation of Bill Belichick being like, well, I don't want to run the same offense at another team in the NFL is going to be running. You know what I mean?

Because, man, we were a pro-style offense with Josh McDaniels, and there are other teams that are pro-style. But the way that we did things in New England was way different than, you know, any other offense in the league, any other pro-style offense, spread, whatever. And so maybe Bill Belichick didn't want to have the same offense, or maybe he just looked at Josh McDaniels. And it was like, okay, you went from friend to foe. So F you and everything you stood for, and I'm just going to do it my way.

Because honestly, we didn't take a single thing from, if anything, whatever was left over, whatever was carryover from Josh McDaniels to, I guess, the Joe Judge and Matt Patricia, they completely changed the names. They changed the, you know, the thought behind it. Like, it was just like, we know it's the same thing. just like, why are we trying so hard to just make it different just so we can say that it's not Josh McDaniel's system? Like, it doesn't have to be that way. And ultimately, I can say this, again, not trying to get back on the Mac Jones conversation, but that was everybody's biggest

gripe about all of that because everybody saw the potential of Mac Jones. Everybody loved Mac Jones. Like, Matt Jones, as soon as he stepped in, he won the locker room immediately. And everybody was in this kid's corner, me especially, because I've been friends with him for a long time. We played together in college. I was in this corner just like everybody else. And we just saw the disservice that all of this disorganization and all of this basically shit hitting the fan. We saw what it did to Mac, not only for his career, but we saw what it did for him mentally. Like obviously, he, you know, the mental side of it could have affected how he played, but let's just take football away for a second. Like, we saw what was happening to this kid mentally,

just as a kid. You know what I mean? Like, as a kid, and we're just like, this ain't right. It's not right. Obviously, the football side of it, it ain't right because we ain't winning games.

We see, like, this kid, he's supposed to be our young leader, our young leader, who we're supposed to stand behind them, lift them up. And it's like, when we got coaches who aren't even literally doing anything,

like anything, Nathaniel, not a single thing, to help this kid progress and make a jump from year one to year two. It was disappointing. to watch. I'm not going to lie. It was really disappointing.

If you look at teams around the league that I think are going to have consistent success and are having consistent success in the NFL, it's places that have created an ecosystem that is hospitable to a young quarterback. What can I do to ensure this guy's development growth success? And if you can build that, you can be really good year after year. It was the opposite in New England during that time. So with that in mind, as you think about what Bill Belichick's next opportunity might look like, do you think he, capable of creating that sort of environment at this stage? And would you be bullish on what he might look like at his next stop if given another chance?

Well, I think that Coach Belichick is in a very special situation. Because one, like I said, he was in, he was at a place where he had boatloads of success. And he thought that he was the only reason why. And, you know, be that as it may, right, wrong, or indifferent. he had the success so he could attribute it to whatever he wanted. At the same time, he also had the same quarterback for 20 years. He was pretty good too. It was pretty good.

You know what I mean? Pretty good. So I think that again, like whenever, like I like to preface everything about Bill Belichick with what he's accustomed to because it's like, well, if he's accustomed to all this, how can you get him, especially like, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. And he's about the oldest dog in the game right now. So to expect him to get another opportunity and completely just shift and change, you know, the way that he's been for the last 50 years that he's been coaching, I think that that would be a little bit crazy to expect.

I would hope that if he does get another opportunity, that he would, you know, make a little bit of adjustment that way. Because I love playing for Bill Belichick. He was the greatest, one of the greatest with Nick Say, one of the greatest coach, greatest mentor, greatest teacher of the game of football, the greatest teacher of professionalism. I don't want his everything that he built to be tarnished by these conversations of, did he ruin the Patriots his last few years there? Did he ruin Mac Jones? Did he do this?

Like, I would love to see him get another opportunity. And I would love to see him have just as much, if not more, success than he had before, which obviously that's probably not possible. But like, that's just what I want for him because I respect Bill Belichick. I appreciate what he has done for the game, what he's done for not only myself, teammates of mine, peers, so on and so forth, that I would hope that he would make the necessary adjustments to kind of write some of the obvious wrongs

that have kind of come to light over these past few years. I wanted to ask you about this, because I do think that there is a slight disconnect between my understanding of how it worked in New England, where he was this figurehead at the top of it, what he said went, and maybe some of the more kumbaya-centric thinking that has gone on in NFL buildings,

where there's more emotional intelligence among coaches now. There's more communication between players and coaches now. When you think about the interpersonal dynamics between Belichick and you guys when you were there, do you think that style can consistently work in the NFL right now? No. I don't think so, especially because of the new prospects that they're getting into the NFL nowadays.

I think that that old school, like, lack of emotional intelligence, lack of adaptability to guys' personalities, to guys, you know, having different ideas, having this, having that, or wanting to express themselves in certain type of ways. I think that, you know, one, it would already be hard in today's, just because there is such a discrepancy, like, there's one team, you know, well, former team with Bill Belichick and the Patriots that was very much like, okay, it's this way or no way, it's here the highway, like, no if-hands or buts about it. But then I would say probably like 29, 30 teams in the NFL, they have a little bit more, like you said, emotional intelligence, a little bit more of adaptability around guys personalities and kind of tailoring what they're doing as an organization with the group of guys on the roster, who they have, the personalities they have, the talent they have, et cetera, et cetera. Well, now you're bringing in these guys who are making five, 10, $15 million in college and then going to the NFL and they're like, I'm top dog. So I'm going to be loud, I'm going to be unapologetically me, and whatever team pitched me, they're going to have to deal with that. I don't necessarily see that and Bill Belichick kind of vibe and all that well.

I don't know. I just, I don't see it. Somebody can make me a liar, but I don't see it. And in Buffalo, it's not like Sean McDermott is this warm, cuddly guy, but you still think that there was a pretty big disconnect between how things and what the environment felt like in Buffalo compared to what it felt like in New England. Absolutely. And like you said,

Sean McDermott was by no means like, hey, let me just come give you a hug and like, oh, how was your day? Like, let's hug you out. Yeah, he's not Mike McDaniel. No, no, no, no, no. It's not like that at all.

But I think that that also just highlights, like, how stuck in his ways Coach Belichick is because you can take a program who is pretty, pretty up to date with like, you know, like I said, obviously being aware and being adaptive and being so on and so forth. but also like there's a way to do things like the old school traditional method of hard work blue collar gets you what you want that is still alive and that's still well and i feel like buffalo

was a healthy combination of both but new england is just very much so it's just blue collar gray rainy days you just put the work in you clock out and you go home you know and there's no there's no if-ans or buts there's no there's no other way there's one way and that's just the way it is I want to turn the tone of this because I would end this on a high note and you being able to talk about something that you enjoy remembering. What favorite, favorite Tom Brady story from that year that you got to play with him? Favorite Tom Brady's the shit. Well, the first time I ever met Tom was that we were having those NFL, I think it was one of those play 60 camps where we had like the fans and the kids come out and they were on the field.

And so this was kind of like during the time of like volunteer workouts or voluntary workouts. or voluntary workouts. And so Tom hadn't been around, but he showed up specifically for the Play 60 thing. And I remember I just saw him walking across the field. And I was like, oh, my God, it's him. There he is. And he just, like, was walking by and he, like, was looking around.

He saw me. And he, like, immediately walked up to me. It's like, Damien, my name's Tom Brady. Like, you know, we just drafted you super excited, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was just standing there, like, are you talking to me? Like, I know you said my name, but, are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? Thanks for introducing yourself.

I appreciate that. No, seriously, like people, like, I don't know if people will understand the magnitude or something like that. But to me, that was, like, monumental, like, six-time Super Bowl champ, literally, like, the greatest of all time. And here I am a rookie. Haven't even, you know, I'm still rocking number 53 because I hadn't even earned, like, a legitimate number yet. That was my high school number, and I don't really appreciate the tone around number 53. For a running back, it is a little bit different. It's a little bit different if you're running back.

But, you know, he really, like, he just walked right up to me and, dude, he just introduced himself and, like, that level of, like, humility and just, like, I could tell it was just, like, one, he was just a normal guy and it was just about the team. Like, no one guy was better than another. And, you know, that was, that was just that. He was just a nice guy. I loved always seeing him walk through the hallways, not because I was just fucking staring at them, but because I watched, and he would speak to literally every single person that was within

10 feet of him. Hey, how are you doing today? Hey, how's your day going today? Hey, how are you doing today? Hey, how's your, how's your wife? How's your daughter who's doing this? How's your son who's got baseball camp today? Oh, your son had a soccer game two weeks ago. How many goals did he score? Is he loving it? Or, oh, if there's anything I can do, you know, let me know. That was the kind of guy that Tom was. Hell, even one time he had, like, said something to me in kind of like a serious way. Like, we were having like a walkthrough and like you know me being a young rookie and I wasn't really playing so I just like had my hood up and I was just kind of like chilling off in the bat and he just yelled and he was like hey take your hood off and I was you know yes sir and a very like very quick matter

of fact and everything and so after the walkthrough was over he put me aside and he was all like hey you don't have to call me sir like don't yes sir me or anything like that he was like you know I just wanted to let you know that there's a way there's a time and a place for everything there's people that are always watching. There are people who are always assessing you on everything that you're doing. And I just want to make sure that you're always putting yourself in the most positive light, no matter who's looking at you, no matter what you're doing that way. Every time somebody looks at you, you're always doing the right thing and so on and so forth.

And I was like, damn, that's real. And he ended the conversation by saying, and don't, again, do not with the yes, sir stuff. He's like, did you say yes, sir to Tua and Jalen Hertz when you play with them? And I was like, no. He's like, all right, well, treat me just like you would treat Tua or Jailen I was like, fair enough. So. Said bring a full circle, you'd be a pro.

Yeah, exactly. And there were a lot of things where he was just, just like that. Like, if there was, you know, if it was time to be serious, Tom was very serious. Like, I definitely saw Tom's serious side. But other than that, whenever it was time to just be laid back and just, like, he was just another one of the guys. It's pretty remarkable. And I think that when we look back on it, you know, we've had a million conversations about this. but I think that as he's out of the league a couple years and we get a better perspective

on what his career was, his ability to go to Tampa and instill in a single year that sort of mindset, that sort of standard, and the power that comes along with that, I don't think we have a proper appreciation for what that was like in real time.

Not even three or four years later, I still don't think we do. No, truly, because, and that's what happens when you get so accustomed to something, right? Like, obviously Tom had a lot of success to New England. He won. He won. He was great. But then once he, to be able to leave and go to a completely different franchise, and like you said, within a year, accomplished what he accomplished,

like, that it's not talked about nearly enough because, like, that was, like, people too busy doing roast and stuff other than, like, talking about how great that was, you know what I'm saying? But it was just, like, the, that was a supernatural ability. And Tom is a supernatural human. I hate to say it because at the end of the day, we are all just humans, but he, you know, he was picked. He was one of the chosen ones, truly. And he has the ability to, you know, clearly whatever he touches, you know, it flourishes. So more power to him. Awesome. Well, that's all I got for you. Damien, sincerely appreciate the time. Thank you very much for joining us. I thoroughly enjoyed this. I hope you enjoyed yourself as well.

Yes, sir. I appreciate you having me. Thank you so much. I enjoyed the time. I appreciate the chat. And, yeah, thank you again for having me. Guys, that's all we have for today. We will be back on Friday with our next installment in our lingering questions from 2023 series. Fittingly enough, we're doing the AFC East on Friday. So get a chat about some things we want answered about the bills, the Jets, the Patriots, who's the other team in the AFC East, the Miami Dolphins as we get there to the end of the week.

So please come back and check that out. Thoroughly have enjoyed these shows. we've got a few more on top for you over the next month or so. For now, that's all we've got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.