The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Daniel Jeremiah talks Mac Jones rumors, his favorite prospects, going from scout to broadcaster & more

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

NFL Network draft analyst Daniel Jeremiah joins Robert Mays to react to the stunning 49ers trade up and their rumored interest in Alabama QB Mac Jones, plus DJ brings his list of favorite prospects, discusses his journey from scout to broadcaster, the insane depth of the 2021 draft class and much exclusively on The Athletic Football Show.Get exclusive discount access to The Athletic at theathletic.com/footballshow or /footballshowcanada Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays, and I am very excited about our next guest, a man that you have to talk to around draft season. NFL Network, draft analyst, Daniel Jeremiah. DJ, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing great, man. I was thinking about this when we were putting this together. The first time I think we ever spoke was at the Combine, right?

Yeah. We did an interview like in the second floor. like lobby area of the Weston, I want to say. That's exactly right. Yep. It's so funny. And now, look at where we are now. You're on television 46 hours a day. I, so we were originally going to do this. So full disclosure for people, just in case there's news that breaks. It's 1135 central time on Saturday because your schedule is very packed. We were going to do this yesterday. I'm very glad we didn't because if we had, it would be completely irrelevant the day later because of what happened. And it was really funny.

You were on TV as the news broke about the trade. So you broke it to me and I got to watch you synthesize it in real time. So now we're going to have to talk about it again, if that's okay with you. Dude, it was a gift. I'll tell you what, I wish I could tell you that I thought all this through and that's why we had to reschedule other than the fact that I'm an idiot and like triple book myself. But I'm glad. I'm glad the timing of it worked out because I had gotten wind of this, that this was that there was a big trade coming. And so we're getting ready to go on the air at 10 o'clock.

And so I'm sitting here going on like, man, I hope that it doesn't break until we get on air so that we can just, you know, because I love pro days. We have a blast with them. We have a quarterback, especially with what Zach Wilson did, which we'll get into. That's fun. But there can be lulls and some downtime. Of course. Two or three hours with a pro day coverage. You get one trade, much less two, it spices it up a little bit.

I was very impressed with Rett's nimbleness. kind of getting all the planes in the air because with all of that stuff happening, it's really hard to shift between them as a host. He did a fantastic job. Dude, so true story. And you appreciate this. And I don't know if everybody will understand how hard this is.

So we are on air and we've been, keeping an eye on Zach Wilson. Then we've got the trade with the dolphins, you know, getting out, the Niners coming up. So he's juggling those two balls. Well, I've got my computer like right here, right? So I've got my laptop up.

So he's just, he, he's navigating. I look at my computer and I see the Eagles official Twitter has tweeted out that the Eagles have just made a trade. So he's juggling on that. I literally take my computer and I'm like, we're not on camera. We're covered up because we're just seeing Zach Wilson. Yeah, I remember when it happened. You can hear he was like a little bit surprised, the tone of his voice.

So I take my, my laptop and we're six feet apart on the desk. So like, all the way across. And I'm like trying to scoot my laptop all the way across the table. And I'm like, look at this. Look at this. Look at this. So then he's got to as a host, you know, most of the time, right, you don't go with information unless are people verified an NFL network or if you know, you get it for more than one place. But when it's the team account with the blue check mark, you know, if so, but he had to he had to juggle those two things, then digest the information I've just gave him and then decide, do I go with this on air right now or do I wait until somebody gets in my ear and says that we can go with it? and he was smartly looked at it and said this is the blue check mark this is the Philadelphia Eagles one of 32 teams this is it this is legit and he immediately he went with it so that was a professional hosting job by him I can't host this podcast and it's not live and we can

change anything we want after the fact so I'm always impressed when people have that dexterity at the host table so I'm sure you got before the trade obviously like you mentioned but afterward I'm sure the text just rolled in oh yeah what would you say by the end of the day when just had settled a little bit, was the overall kind of discourse and conversation around the trade? What was the main takeaway league-wide from everything that happened yesterday, Normand? Well, I think the majority of people around the league believe this is for Mack Jones. Wow.

And so, shock that what you just said is probably the overwhelming reaction that I've received, which is, wow. That, yeah, but it's, it's what you hear from a lot of people. people. And it's, it's the, I would say this, are the people that you would want to believe and you put your faith in, the overwhelming majority of them believe this is going to be Mack Jones with that pick. So that's what's so shocking.

Do you feel like that's the Niners to go? And I, maybe they have, they have information I don't have. And I always hesitated to ascribe like, oh, are they overpaying? Are they negotiating against themselves? But in your mind, does this mean they have gotten some intel that he would have gone higher than some people project him to go if they thought they needed to go to three to do this. I'll tell you what, the team that you had heard with Mack Jones, and we've heard it for a while. Again, two things.

I like Matt Jones as a quarterback. I think Max, you got a chance provided he's in the right spot. I do not have him graded as a top 10 player in the draft. I don't. He's like my 32nd player. So put that aside. The Carolina Panthers have been the team that you've heard associated with him. The Carolina Panthers and the Denver Broncos are two teams.

that are going to add to their quarterback room. And Mack had been associated with the Panthers. I think some of that, too, when, when, when Tepper showed up down at the senior bowl, even though Mac wasn't going to play in the game, the fact that you had an owner on the sidelines of the senior bowl opened a lot of eyes and people, a lot of people in that circle,

you talked to the same folks, were like, okay, that's, that's significant. That's not insignificant that he's down here. And it's been well known that they want to address the quarterback position. So I think maybe they were saying, okay, we want to, get ahead of them. Now, if you get down, if you wait till draft day in the Miami Dolphins, they're fielding calls from one team that picks at eight and one team that picks at 12,

you get yourself in any type of a standoff there, the Carolina Panthers have you, because they have the Trump card, they have a higher pick if all the other assets are the same. So I think the thought process, you know, for the Niners, in my opinion, if it is indeed Mac Jones was let's eliminate everything and just go all the way up and not have to worry about anybody. So fascinating, man. It's so interesting because I think you and I are kind of aligned in our thinking about Mac Jones and the idea of a quarterback who can't solve problems with his legs early in his career. It's that mobility and that playmaking trait just allows you to get by with more early

when you don't have that decade of experience to tap into to survive without your legs. And I'm wondering if the nine, and this is just me projecting, I wonder if they're thinking is we create so many answers within our offense. we just need a point and shoot guy that we think is going to be a quick processor, accurate, decision maker, and we can survive with that kind of guy. Because if you go back to 2012, right,

people have said in the last 24 hours, which I think is objectively wrong, well, look what happened with Robert Griffin. I don't think Kyle and Mike Shanahan wanted Robert Griffin. I think they wanted Kirk Cousins. 100% who they still love to this day. Exactly. And if you think that's the type of guy they like,

then this makes a little bit more sense. The difference is Kirk Cousins is a fourth round pick. Mac Jones in the top three When you have to trade two first-round picks to go get him It's an entirely different conversation So that's kind of the thing Even if the pieces make sense Even if he's the type of quarterback that tracks for that offense

The price just seems otherworldly and outrageous So a couple things Shanahan was in Houston with Shob Right? Yep So Shob Cousins who you mentioned Matt Ryan All those guys play the game kind of similarly And those guys all would allow Kyle to do what, in my opinion, Kyle wants to do, which is Kyle wants to play quarterback from the sideline.

And he wants a joystick. He wants a joystick out on the field that can take what's in his brain and execute it. And, you know, as it's basically making the paper come to life. Whereas that's great, except for the fact that Aaron Donald just is unblocked, you know. So now what happens? And I keep coming back to this thought, which. which is two, well, there's a lot of thoughts, but you look at Mac, what he had at Alabama, right? All those skill position players. And I'm sure Kyle's sitting here thinking, okay, well, look at us.

Look with the skill talent that we have at tight end and a wide receiver. And I can create these same matchups and advantages. And his quick processing is going to allow us to get the ball in their hand and go. I would add, I, I, Vanderbilt, Jaylon Ramsey does not play at Vanderbilt. I would add that. So that's a little bit different in terms of what you're going to see under the side of the ball. The other thing is, I would love to get, let me get your thought on this. You're Sean McVeigh. So all this is coming out, right? You're learning all this.

You're finding all this stuff with this, with this trade. And you're sitting there saying, okay, me and Kyle, while slightly different, we run pretty much same offense. I'm going to be running that offense with Matthew Stafford. He's going to be running that offense with Mack Jones. I would sleep like a baby if I was Sean McVeigh. Because isn't that the argument? Isn't it about the, you make a move up like this? for traits.

You make a move up like this for a guy that has exceptional physical ability that is rare and you can't find anywhere else. And for as advanced as a quarterback as Mac Jones might be, that's not the conversation we're having about him. But then I think that leads to another conversation about does a quarterback become exceptional beyond those traits? And I think that's a philosophical thing that you have to get into. So it may be a case where they're just looking for a different sort of thing.

That being said, if you're a team. team that's more aligned with the traditional thinking that we've come to expect about quarterbacks right now where traits and mobility and everything else helps. If you're Carolina and maybe you liked Justin Fields or Trey Lance more than Mack Jones, you're probably having a party right now or any one of those teams that are like Denver. Let's say the Broncos want to go up and they loved Trey Lance. And now that fourth overall pick that Atlanta has, Trey Lance might be available there because Mac Jones is going at three. I mean, you're celebrating up there in Dull Valley right now. That's exactly your reaction.

to all this. Well, I think everybody, and not just the quarterback teams, if you're the non-quarterback teams, if you're a team like the Dallas Cowboys at 10, you're sitting there thinking, oh, my gosh, we're going to have our choice of the top corner or the top tackle in the draft. Because if Mac, if Mac ends up going three, I think that there's a real chance that we have the first five picks be quarterbacks. I think that's totally implied because you have eight and nine that can come up. You have Carolina and Denver who could come up for quarterbacks. And I'm not, I'm not ruling out Atlanta. I think there's still a very very, very real chance at Atlanta's taking a quarterback. Everybody, everybody kind of jumped on the whole

Matt Ryan restructuring and said they're committed to Matt Ryan. And I talked to two GMs in the league that said, dude, they had to do that to get under the sour cap. Like that, that was going to happen. And it's going to be a- I thought that back in like January. When I saw the 40 number, I was like, how can they possibly do this? And then they waited for a while. And so I think that that makes total sense. So if you're looking at and so with the Jets at two, I want to talk about this really quick before we get to the dolphins thinking in that second group of players. Are you just sold on Wilson at two? I remember I sent you a text in like December and I told you that if I were one of your

parents, I would tell you that it was all moving a little fast with Zach Wilson. I was telling you that I would slow down a little bit because I was worried about you. I forgot about that. I have to go back and pull that up. That's a great call. No, dude, I think that's pretty well, pretty well done. You know, we'll see. And look, I said it on the end of the day.

Like there's always the Ted DiBiase theory, right? Everybody's got a price. I mean, if Carolina calls it just blows your doors off with some crazy draft capital players combination that, yeah, I think they, you know, Sam Donald's not a bad option there. If you're the Jets, you take all that that comes with it. But to me, when you look at resetting the clock financially and you look at having a new head coach, it just makes sense to go with the quarterback. And I think when you look at the options that are there, I think he's the best player. It also seems like, you know, there have been other years where quarterbacks have been pushed up. We think about the golf wince year.

But I also think that you're talking about traits again. This group just seems more talented. Like the idea that it's going to be these five, it feels, and you know more about this than I do, especially I am in my draft prep. But it really does seem like if traits matter at the top of the draft, this is a collection of quarterbacks, if Mac Jones aside, that just have more traits than any group we've seen come through in a while. Even the 2018 group, Baker wasn't one of those guys like you and Bucky talk about that was the tractor and was the truck and not the trailer. He's a guy that was successful and efficient, but he's not like otherworldly talented. Like it seems like this group is. So I just updated my top 50, which will come out next week. And I have Trevor is my top player. Zach Wilson is my number four. Tray Lance at seven. Justin Fields at eight. I've never had a year where I've had four quarterbacks in the top eight players in the draft. And it is a lot of because of what you see. said the traits. And I this is one of the things that I look, it comes with the territory, but I loathe about the draft process is there's this belief that if you're for one

quarterback, you're against the other one. And I really feel like those top four quarterbacks, you know, they land in the, you know, with a good spot. They have a chance to be really, really good, man. These guys are really gifted. And then I would even add Mac as the fifth, even though there's a gap between those top four and him for me. Look, if we were going to, if we were going to draft the teams that fit Mac Jones, where you would think, okay, he's got a chance to be successful. I probably would take New Orleans one. I probably take San Francisco too.

So if that is where he ends up, that's going to give him the best opportunity to be successful. So for playing matchmaker, you know, I think we've got some pretty good fits. Because I remember I was talking to GM last year, who was a quarterback knee team, and they were talking about the idea of moving up for a quarterback in the draft with that class. and Burrow and Tua, for as attractive as they were, they were not as gifted as this group of guys, as far as I understand it. It was just a different conversation

than the one we're having right now. So as we go into that next group of players, the next tier, and I think this is Miami's thinking, them going back up to six, where do you think the cutoff is when it comes to tier of players post-quarterback? Do you think there's a group of like three guys? I know you like Slater a lot,

but maybe they're thinking could be, we think Pitts, Slater, and Schwarz, Chase are their own group, and that's why we think we need to be at six instead of 12. I'm just trying to read into why they think they need to make that move back up. So I'll go through my list here. So I have Lawrence one, right? So let's just take, I mentioned where all the quarterbacks are. So for me, then I have Pitts.

I moved to two. I had him at three. I moved him to two. So I've got Pitts, Jamar Chase as two and three. And then I have Waddle and Devante Smith at six and seven. So then you get the couple of quarterbacks. and then you get to Slater is number nine. But to me, I look at it as there's two guys that are by themselves for me.

It's Pitts and Jamar Chase. I gave him the same exact grade. Flip a coin, who you like. They're both going to be studs. They're both phenomenal players. That's a group of two for me. And I think if you're Miami and you're saying, if we trade out, it's all likelihood that either Atlanta is taking a quarterback at four or they're going to get out and somebody else is

coming up to take a quarterback at four. So now there's first four picks or quarterbacks. We got back up to six. We get one of the two premier players in the draft, the position players, which to me are Pits, Jamar Chase. The Pits thing, you look at it right now, you'd say, oh, well, Gisiki's there and do that. I think that's silly. This is a team that's been playing the long game.

Yeah, they've been playing the long game for like the last three years. Also, Gassickie's in the last year of his contract. They had, I think, 280 pass routes combined last year from Durham, Smyth and Adam Shaheen. Like, they could have a need for Kyle Pitts. All right. Well, because we're on, because we're taping this, we probably could do this. Do you have the way to pull up how many in-line snaps a Tident had? Yes, I can tell you for Gisiki right now.

It was 120 of his 650 snaps. Thank you. So if Gisiki were to, if he were to be franchised, I promise you, his representation would say he's a wide receiver. He is not a tight end. He's a slot receiver. He's a slot receiver. The T.E. next to his name is irrelevant. So that's why I crack up laughing.

I'd be like, you've got a good Titan and Gassicki. You can't take Kyle Pitts. I'm like, Gassig didn't even play tight in, first of all. Second of all, second of all, Kyle Pitts could start at X. He'd be their best X receiver if they just wanted to play him at X. So to me, that's a little bit of an exaggeration. I'm not comparing it to Michael Jordan, but don't take Sam Bowie. Like to stop.

He's the best player. He's the best player, especially if you're at this point, your team building process where the dolphins are. Like, if you know, like Mike Gisickey as a player, Mike Gisickey is not a roadblock from taking what might be the best player in the entire draft. Like, not even a start. Who we haven't seen anything like. Like, you know, when you go trying to go back through the drafts and like, okay, Kyle Pitts, like, who do I go to?

I mean, to me, I kind of go back to like Kellen Winslow, honestly, who, you know, life is taking a turn there. But when he was coming out, like that was, there was people that thought he was the most talented player in that draft class. It's also, I think that the argument against the trade up. And I can understand. I'm curious what you're thinking about this. Because for Miami, the picks are only so,

the picks have to turn it to players eventually. And I also think that when you're that front office, there's a human element to like, at some point we want to get our guys. Like at some point, you want to create some excitement in that room to like we can get one of these two. But I think the argument against going from 12 to 6,

especially if it's for a receiver, is that we've seen guys drafted later be just this successful. And you have, you can't overrate your ability to evaluate. And that's why to me, with Pitts and Sewell, or for people that think Sewell's that guy, there's the scarcity there. You can say that the left tackle on the tight end, there just aren't players at that position available often.

And that's why we can get one of those two guys. So I was kicking it around a lot last night being like, what is their mindset, what type of guy are they after, and how would this make sense? And I think for those guys, the scarcity might inform that. I've been a huge proponent of day two wideouts. And the names are incredible. what we've seen over the last five years of guys going on day two. It's an awesome group. But I also think if you feel like you have your Mike Evans,

you know, Odell, whoever, if you feel like you love that guy and he is that walks in as a number one. And I think he's going to help my quarterback, even though I can find a reasonable alternative. To me, I would think that would inform my decision to go that way. Now, I love Slater. I think there's a chance Slater probably, you know, has to kick in. I have him at tackle, but who knows, he might end up having a kick inside. I don't have Sewell as that, you know, premier, premier player. So to me, the gap between players and grades with Pitts and Jamar Chase versus Sewell to me is

pretty significant. That's really interesting. Okay. When you watch Chase, who does he remind you of? Because I was trying to pin that down this morning. I went back in because I'm not super familiar with him because I didn't watch much. I mean, I've watched him a little bit, but I watched more of the Alabama guys than him. And I was watching him today.

and he plays a lot bigger than his 6-1, but he's still got wiggle. Like, who does he remind you of of guys you've seen before? Well, I think I've probably used this analogy too much, or this comparison too much over the years, but he reminds me a lot of a faster Antoine Bolden, just because the ferociousness with which he plays. Yeah. And the ferocity, whatever the word is there.

But you know what I'm talking about, like just how physical and aggressive and how big and strong he plays. And you're right. I don't care what the height says when it goes. up he can go up and get it and then after the catch he's just really really strong so to me that was you know the play strength side of it reminded me of him i know some guys some guys have said he looks like he plays a little bit like a shorter fits you know like he plays like that young fits which is an incredible uh compliment but um yeah he's the different guy he's a different guy when you watch

him um i'm like okay is this when you first popped mom because you heard about him as a freshman so you're looking at justin jefferson and you're keeping an eye on this guy. And before looking it up, I'm like, because he's 6.3. He's probably 6.3. And then I look it up. He's like 6.1. If that. It's always my favorite. And when you were, you watch him physically, like he uses his hands to get off the line a lot against press coverage. And when you're doing that, my first thought is, is he can be able to do that against NFL corners. And then you realize the guys he's doing it against are like Patrick 13. They are. Yeah. They are. It's like, you're totally fine. And then the way he throttles down on like vertical to comeback routes reminds me of

stuff on digs actually like the body control and everything else and when we were throwing like these sorts of things around it's like all right that might be a really special player yeah so i'm sure you've gotten this question a hundred times but i wanted to just quickly ask you we're in the midst of the strangest pre-draft evaluation process probably ever yeah what would you say is the biggest difference between the process for you and for teams you've talked to this year compared to what it even would have been like last year i'm going to have more movement on the on my sequence list which is what we just call your draft rankings later in the process this year than any other year I can ever remember. And I know teams are the same way when you talk to him. An example is

like Quipay, and it's not going to impact his grade for me personally, but it's an example. You have six four as a number on him. He's 6024. He's six two and a half. Like that's a significant difference between what you think you're watching and what what he is, right? But the lack of, the lack of measurables and numbers on these guys impacts things. Then teams are playing catch up on the character stuff. The best character information you get is when you're one on one with a source. And you can say, okay, well, you could, you could zoom a source, call a source, you could get it. You're still going to get better information when you're there with them.

So when the teams, when the scouts, like let's just pull out of school. Let's say Oregon. The way that it was set up this year was you'd have, okay, Tuesday at 10 o'clock in the morning, the scouts can log on and we will have our strength coach available. We'll have, you know, following that will be our trainer, then our academic make advisor, then you'll be able to talk to the position coaches maybe Wednesday at this time. Well, these coaches are on a Zoom call with 60 scouts on there. Some they might have known for 20 or some they've never seen, never met. The information you are getting is worthless. You're not

going to get anything valuable. Whereas when I go to Oregon, not only am I going to meet in the room with the, maybe there's four scouts on the visit that day. So the four of us are going to go and meet with all those same people. We'll get a little bit more information there than we'll would on a Zoom call. But when I leave there, when I walk out to practice and I see the assistant trainer who used to work at Idaho that I've known for 15 years and I can say, hey, what's this kid like and he can give me some information? Then the film guy, I can knock on his door, sneak in his office by myself. How much extra tape does this guy watch? Is he here on the weekends? They can see everything on the iPads anyways with how much they're doing. I get so much information

floating around the campus that you're not getting on a Zoom call. So now what I'm getting as you go to these pro days, this is the first time the scouts have been on campus. So now they're getting a chance to tap end to all these resources. They haven't had a chance to get. So like I'm getting tons of feedback on guys, good and bad, that we're just finding about now. I don't want you to blow up your spot with your sources or anything like that, but I'm curious. Is there a place you go to or a set of coaches you talk to where you think you come away with a different appreciation or understanding of where the game is going?

Like a spot where you're just like, I learned a lot today. well I mean I and we don't have a close relationship but just like even sitting on a plane next to McVe for on the way to the combine last year and we just sat and and less was there and three of us just we chatted forever about kind of where it was going and kind of personnel groupings and he talked a lot about wanting to be more than 12 because they had just obviously lived so much in 11 and doing different things so that was a that was kind of more of a one off with him but I have you know we're doing the charger games Tom Telesco has a really good pulse on where everything is going. He's a really, really sharp guy. So we have a lot of those great conversations. I feel like the guys that my buddies with the Ravens when we all kind of came up together, you know, Witals and Philly, JODs with the Jets,

we all kind of have our, we have our same core philosophy that we developed there in Baltimore that was developed there by Ozzie and Phil and Eric. But I think that there's also kind of, of a growing mindset in terms of where things are going. And the Ravens, the Lamar Jackson selection is a great example of that. Totally. And like, this is, we're going to be ahead of this, not behind it.

What would you say is the biggest difference in terms of how you and people in the room evaluate players now compared to what it was like when you were in Baltimore? That's a good question. I think a lot of it, I think a lot of it is the same. I really do. I think the core, the core things are the same. gosh that's a really good question

I'm trying to think of what some of the differences are I mean I think that I think some of the data has been more informing now than than ever before and in terms of finding value for players and things like that I think that's been a huge a huge assist and a huge help and saving you maybe from a couple bad decisions

where you can fall in love with a player and then the overwhelming the numbers come back to this guy is not going to be a good player. Like just look at this. He is fighting every single odd to get there. So it allows, maybe takes a little bit of your emotion out of it. I still think there's a place for that in your core and you trust your beliefs.

But I do think that there's checks and balances, maybe like some some bumpers along the bowling alley that weren't there before that can save you from some mistakes. How much progress do you think we've made on the mental and processing side of evaluation? I was talking to a head coach this week about the way they look at defensive backs and the way that they learn about how they'll fit into what they do. And just the overall percentage of the evaluation assigned to how does this guy see route distribution? How does he understand the way the game unfolds? Do you think that we've made strides in that area?

Do you think that that's overstated? No, I think so. I actually think with the pandemic that the access to these kids over Zoom has made that a lot easier. I think there was a lot of hesitancy of, man, I want to get this guy in the building. He'd come into our building on a 30 visit and I can spend the whole day with him and we can grill him. We can find things out. And then they've realized, okay, when you, when he comes in for the visit, he's going to spend some time with his position coach, sometimes with the coordinator. He's going to then go spend some time with the head coach.

The personnel department's going to want to get their hands on him. He's going to spend part of that day getting a physical. You want to get another physical on the kid versus I can zoom with this guy five times. for our five hour sessions and we can I can actually install things and see him grow and track and develop he can share his screen he can he can you know run the clicker if you need to to be able to show what they're doing um it's to me it's it's a lot more information that you're able to get and inside their head with the multiple meetings versus just a one off that's what I've gotten to is that it's almost like accidental innovation in a way because of they've

had to do it this way and you can get in a Zoom call with the head coach the defensive backs coach the coordinator, they can kind of have this collaborative way that they ask questions and gain information. It's really interesting. You know, what else is interesting is we used to, this is how it's changed. We used to, when the players came in, so they would go to the different offices, right? And this was a lot of different people. He'd meet with like 10 different people. So you'd have five guys come in in one day and you just kind of rotate them around the different offices from the coaching side to the personnel side. And you're talking about college director, pro director, personnel director, everything. So these guys are meeting with 10 different guys.

well then at the end of the day you all collect inside the draft room or whatever you know conference room and you sit in there and we go okay jones and then we go around the table what did you think of him how was he with you and you kind of share all that information now he can be doing those individual zooms and we can edit it and put it together in one video and be like oh my gosh you know what i asked him this this question he said this but then you asked him that and he said that like that doesn't marry up like to me it's you have it all on video you record these stuff you know what things. Yeah. And I think that especially at specific positions, and I think we probably are always known this, but it's been really obvious lately. I think Josh Allen's a really good example where you had this kind of outdated discourse about Josh Allen where, oh, he's just all measurable and he's not accurate and all this other stuff.

And then when you talk to people who actually know Josh Allen and just how smart he is. He's brilliant. He's brilliant. And how smarty is and just how important it was for him to get better and how much it mattered to him. And you've said this about Trey Lance. where it's just this bundle of traits, but the person and his just interest in football and all the intangible stuff is almost more important as it relates to that bundle of traits than just his physical ability on its own. So one of the things on this side, I don't get a chance to know all of the quarterbacks like or all the players in the draft for that matter like I would.

Now, when you are granted access, you do get a chance to be around them. What I have learned and when you go back and self-evaluate, I had a chance to be around Josh Allen several times. from from senior bowl to we had him on the podcast so I had met with him you know multiple times. I loved the kid and I knew how intelligent he was and I knew obviously the traits were there. But then I'm like, okay, well, when I go back to kind of my core philosophy, you know, quarterbacks that had been forever, you know, a poise accuracy decision making like that's the holy trinity like that's where it starts. And so when I looked at that, I'm like, okay, you know, the accuracy, the decision making can get a little bit wonky there.

And then you go back and look at what Josh has been able to grow and turn into, which is one of the best players in the entire league. I think he has a chance to ascend to be the best quarterback in the NFL. And I'm realizing with all the ability there and you know the kid, just bet on the person. Like when he has all that and you know how hard he's going to work and how intelligent he is, just bet on the person. So I've taken a little bit of that lesson and applied it to Trey.

Like to me, that's a like, is it all there right now? No. but he has all the traits in the world and he's he is absolutely motivated he has phenomenal work ethic and he's highly intelligent like i'm going to bet on that kid that's that's kind of how my philosophy shifted how what would you say is the biggest area of growth or change for daniel jeremiah the evaluator at age 43 compared to what you were at 25 i think that the best um um the most valuable thing is just volume It's impossible to be as good when you've watched 100 players versus when you've watched 50,000 players because there's always callback and there's always like the example that I just

gave you. There's all these mistakes and lessons that you can learn along the way. And as long as you're going back and being honest with yourself and being like, okay, I undervalued that, overvalued this. And I think that you can really learn and at least try your best not to keep repeating those same mistakes over and over again. But I did something last year where I just said, I'm going to create a, oh gosh, what did I call it?

I think I called it a, it was basically like a no tolerance list or like a non-negotiables. So I came up with a non-negotiable list. I'm like, okay, I'm going to go by position. I'm going to go back and look at all the guys I've missed on by position. And I'm going to find that one thing that I'm just going to say, forget it. I'm not, if this is, if this player lacks this, I'm out. I'm not messing with it. Great example.

when I looked at all the corners that I had, you know, missed on, can't, you know, athletic, rangy, fluid, can't play the ball. You know, explosive, dynamic, pretty instinctive, can't play the ball. Like, if you can't play the ball, you are done. Like, if you can't play the ball in college, you're not going to miraculously learn how to play the ball in the NFL. To me, that's an instinct thing. So that to me, I was like, all right, I'm out on those guys. Would you say that's the hardest position to evaluate aside from quarterback? Oh, safety for me.

You think so? Safety for me by far. Because there's just, you can, in the college game, you see so much bubble screen, tunnel screen, and you're just like, this guy's, he's kind of a no man's line. He's not getting any action. I can't,

I don't get a chance to see him. A lot of times they don't let those guys match up. We're going to ask this guy to cover a lot more in the NFL than what he's being asked to do here. So, and some schemes are better than others, but there's games where you're like, I've watched five. games in this guy and flip a coin, man.

I was joking with the GM the other day because I go position by position as I'm going through the draft order. And once I kind of make my calls and so I watched all the safeties that I had been told we're like top four round type guys. So I've just knocked all those guys out. Well, now I've got 25 safeties left to watch, none of which are projected to be top four round picks. And I was talking to the GM.

I said after like 10, to me it got to like, it was like an M&M video where they just all look exactly the same, just like walking into the auditorium. It's funny because, you know, 10 years ago, it was all about how the spread offense was making it difficult to evaluate players. And I think that now the convergence of the college and the pro game has eliminated a lot of that conversation. But on defense, I think that that gap probably exists where the simplicity on certain defenses and, you know, in the SEC, you can have a lot of press man corners because you got the corners. But in other areas, there's so much static zone and it just that gap between the expectations and the schematics in college and the

pros now probably applies more to safeties in the secondary than it does to any offensive player. I mean, I don't know how like when you go through the corners and you're like, I can't write quarter turn but to the sideline bail like anymore. I mean, it's just it's just quarters coverage every every tape you put on. And I'm like, I don't see the guy pedal. I don't see the guy press. I don't see the guy have to plant and drive. Everything's out of a side turn. Like it's, he's not we're not going to use him like that. So how do you do that? How do you close that gap?

If there's a guy you're watching and there's no scheme projection whatsoever, what sort of bets can you make on traits to project that guy into your system? Is it a situation where you're just crossing guys off? Or do you eventually have to take a chance on somebody, even if you haven't seen him do the exact type of stuff you want him to do in your defense? Well, the good news is with the, like with the PFF ultimate, which is great, which we've been able to use. the NFL teams have it.

We have it through NFL network. But to be able to have the advanced sorting for cutups of video is phenomenal because I can say, man, I've watched three games and I haven't seen this corner, you know, play inside. You know, and I'm like,

I don't know, has he played inside at all? And I can go back and now I can pull up three years with a video. I can just sort it as give me all of his snaps inside as a nickel. And I can get the cut up within 30 seconds. And I can watch, maybe it's 40 plays. Maybe he's only played 40 plays.

in there, but that's 40, it's better than none. Like, I can actually see glimpses of him doing that. Now, it might not be the volume with which you'd feel great about an evaluation. But I found out that through that, these guys, you can see most of them do at least a couple times what you're going to ask them to do. So it's just, you just got to hunt and find it. I would do terrible, terrible things for a PFF ultimate login. I would just horrible things. You're my boy, Blue. You're my boy. All right. I know you have a million things to do. question for you. We're asking everybody during the draft process this question. Who are your guys? Who are your two to three guys, the guys you plant your flag in, the guys that you would die on that hill in this class?

Well, I would say Jammin Davis from Kentucky to the linebacker was, and I came to him late. I watched him later on in the process and I was just like, whoa, okay. This dude's fun. Like he's what a linebacker is right now with the length and range and speed and ability to cover. So he would be one that I would absolutely stamp. I love Elijah Moore. I know he's little, but to me, he's just a playmaker. Just get the ball on his hands and let him go. He would definitely be one of my guys. I really like Divine Diablo.

He's like my second safety. Some teams have him as a will. But to me, I think he's kind of where we are right now with the ability to do different things. So those guys I'm pretty passionate about. I would say, even though I've kept him, I've talked a big game on this. but I haven't moved him. Javante Williams, there's that little voice inside my head that said he's going to be the end up being the best running back in this draft. I've seen that effect your thinking and the way you've talked about him slowly over time.

Oh, gosh, it just keeps playing in my mind. So I have him as I still have him as the third back. I'm like, okay, let's just calm down here. But I keep moving those guys up my list in an era where we don't value running backs. I have three running backs in my top 27 players. I think all three of those guys are really, really good. So everything, I have some good relationships with that staff. And the stuff that you hear on him is like, you know, he ain't going to,

you're not going to miss it on that kid. That's great. We, uh, what you said about the guy that the safety that plays a little bit of the linebacker and doing enough things. We're having a show on Friday about just the way some of the schematic changes in the league have affected how we're looking at players. And I was talking to a defensive coach last week. And he was just the more you can do at this point.

Can you play safety and linebacker? Can I put you in my nickel. spot. It's just that and it almost feels like that's a way to get steals with guys because we used to think that falling in those cracks positionally was a negative. And now especially in the secondary, I almost feel like those are the types of guys you want. And just the reasons you can find value in the areas where their inefficiency I think are constantly the most interesting thing about the draft. I just love trying to find that stuff. So with safeties, I've kind of made the point of if you have to be able to do two things. So it can be any combination. If you

you if you can play as the high safety, if you can then also help give me some snaps as a nickel. Or you can be more of a, you can be a sub linebacker for me as well as playoff off the hash. Like to me, being able to do two different things, I don't care what the combination of the two things is, but to be able to have the ability to play in two different roles to me is,

is huge. That's why like, I like the Notre Dame kid, Oosu Karamoa, like, dude, you use him wherever the heck you want to use them. week to week.

He could be your big nickel and hold up out there. And I think that's exactly what I'm talking about. And he's the name that's been brought up in that way so many times, but like,

you need that kind of guy now. That's not a weakness anymore to be a safety slash linebacker because of all of the sub packages and everything else. I think that's so interesting. The last thing I'll ask you, because we and I've talked

about Wilson a little bit over the last few months and I know you've been a fan of his. The way he throws the ball and at that throw that you pointed out yesterday during the pro day, it reminds me of Rogers. Like the way that he gets back

That he creates balance He looks just like him He looks just like him Yes and because like Mahomes has that The whip element to the way he throws And he creates velocity with like This longed limb stuff It's almost inside out too

Mahomes almost can throw it's almost like a pitcher Where it's almost got inside out action on it And Wilson is so compact And the way he uses that front foot Almost like as a lever to balance himself It just reminds me the way Rogers moves And I just I was wondering if that's a ridiculous thing to say

if you see that. Well, it looks exactly like him. And to me, as a weak armed quarterback like I was, I had to be so grounded, right? Like I had to dig my cleats in the ground. My back foot had to be dug into the ground. And I had to generate as much force as I could off my back foot to be able to create any type of velocity. And with Rogers and when you watch Zach, literally you freeze it, the ball still in their hand, both their feet are off the ground. Like that's insane. That's insane. Like you have so much explosiveness in your hips and in your upper torque. It's unique. And he does it all the time.

And there aren't many guys that can do it. That's why I keep using the term with him. It's just he does some rare, rare stuff. Yeah. And that stuff matters, except if you're the Niners and you'd rather have Mack Jones. All right, buddy. It's going to be fun, man. It's going to be a fun draft.

I cannot wait. I think there are so many questions. I think that what happens at four now because now four becomes the pivot point. because the domino at three fell. There's one few response to trade up to. I mean, it's going to be an endless amount of intrigue here over the next month. And it is going to be a busy month for you. So I appreciate you taking the time out.

It's always good to chat with you, bud. No, dude, every time we chat, I always take something away from it. So I feel a little bit greedy when we talk. I appreciate you. That's silly. Thanks, buddy. Talk to you later. Later, dude.

All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Daniel for stopping by. He is so busy this time of year. It means a ton that he would take the time out. We will be back tomorrow with Nate. we're going deep on the quarterbacks. It is time. Nate has done a ton of evaluating on those guys

over the last couple months for Bleacher Report. It's one of my favorite people to talk about quarterbacks with, period. I cannot wait to dig into that. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I sincerely appreciate it. Also, please subscribe to the athletic. It's a dollar a month for the next six months.

You're not going to beat that. There's so much good stuff on the site right now. Draft-wise, Dane Bruegler's draft guide is going to be coming out very shortly. you will not regret it, I promise you. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, thanks for listening. This was The Athletic Football Show.