The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Davante Adams, Tyreek Hill and NFL superstars in new situations for 2022

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

The Davante Adams and Tyreek Hill trades landed a few superstars in wholly new situations this season. Not just the receivers themselves, but their former quarterbacks Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes, as well. How are all four of those players going to adapt this season? And how will other superstars in new circumstances change their games in 2022? Robert Mays and PFF's Seth Galina dig into those questions on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Seth on Twitter: @pff_sethSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. The athletic football show. Today is Wednesday, August 24th. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today from Pro Football Focus. It's Seth Kalina. Seth, how you doing, man? I'm great, man.

How are you? I'm doing very well. I'm excited to do this show with you. I'm excited to record this show from my house. This is the first podcast I've done from my office in a month. I am finally back from my training camp travels. Sort of. I'm going to see the Bears this afternoon.

That's a commute for me. So all of my drives over 45 minutes are done, and it is nice to be all set with that part of the calendar. And the nice part about that trip, though, is that we get to take some of those conversations and put them back into the show, and that's what I wanted to do today. I wanted to talk to you about,

let's call this superstars in new circumstances. And the reason that's vague is because I want to fit a bunch of different guys under one umbrella here. So there are a bunch of players that have either had a great pass catcher traded away. are a great pass catcher who has been traded away, just guys that are going to be in very new surroundings heading into 2022, that we haven't talked about a ton on the show up to this point. Aaron Rogers, Patrick Mahomes, all of those receivers that got traded, one guy who there's been a lot of turnover in his organization that you want to talk about.

So that's what we're going to dig into today. And you were the person I wanted to have this conversation with. Well, I mean, I certainly appreciate it. I want the listeners to understand that you won't let me publicly give my bear's takes and that they can text me. I'll give them my number after the show if they don't want the bear's takes. We're going to save those for a different show. The NFC North preview is going to be the first preview that me and Nate do

when we start at Division Previews next week. If you want to just jump onto that show and just rip off some Bears takes for like 90 seconds, you're more than welcome. I will say that me and Nate are currently beefing about the Chicago Bears and their quarterback that's all I'm going to say I'll leave it at that and we can get into what's talk so you're just out came here to talk I look if you want the full thing please it's a I I work on a subscription based model so you have to pay 999 for me for my full bear stakes but all I can tell you is that me and Nate are on two sides of the of the hallway on Justin Fields my head is closer to your side of

the hallway. My heart is closer to Nate's side. It's created a lot of internal conflict that I'm working through at this current stage of things. All right. Let's get into some guys that we do think are pretty good and we're pretty sure are pretty good. Let's start this conversation with Aaron Rogers. And the timing worked out really well here. I actually sat down with Aaron for a bit yesterday and we talked about this. We talked about how different life is going to be without Devante Adams. And there are some teams that lose a number one receiver, the Titans this year, the Chiefs this year, that guy leaves and you can kind of understand what it's going to look like without him.

Not because the guy we're discussing isn't a great player, but just because of the prominence within the offense. I don't know about you, but it's hard for me to imagine what the Packers' offense looks like without Devante Adams because of how central he is to what they do. I don't think there's a guy who meant more schematically to an offense, to a passing game, let's say, outside of the actual quarterback, then Devante Adams last year or the past couple of years.

Everything ran through him. And they would put him in different spots, and we know this, his usage was just, oh, I'm an outside receiver on the left, or I'm a slot on the right or whatever. Like they would vary his usage. They would use him on whether he was, you know, the first target, you know, the primary read on a quick game side,

whether he was a primary read, in a deeper concept, whether he was something else. And then you have to add in that I don't think there's a player in the league who commands the respect from a defensive secondary that he did. We always have a hard time measuring this, and I know a lot of people have tried, like receiver gravity. Just from watching the film, I don't know if there's a receiver with more gravity

than DeMonte Ames or the past couple of years. You see all the deep throws that Rogers has made to guys like Lazzard and MVS and all those players, so many of them are a safety who has their eye on Devante Adams and letting another receiver streak behind their head

or jumping up on Devante Adams and then letting receiver streak behind their head. It happens all the time. And yeah, I mean, this is a guy who's the offense ran through Devante Adams. Now, obviously, you have Amher Rogers who is the trigger man

of this whole operation, but still schematically the whole thing ran through ran through Adams. What Rogers told me yesterday is his estimation probably 80% of the passing concepts

last year were built with Adams as the number one player in their progression. That's insane. But just think about that. Just think about how central that person is to everything you do if it's 80%.

And what they would do is, like you said, they would move him around to different spots within the formation. They would tag the plays with where he was and they would literally build

the play around creating a matchup for him within the structure of the play. And you just don't have many guys, really any other guys, I think, in the NFL right now that are at that level. We'll talk about somebody that I think can get there in Justin Jefferson a little bit later in this show. Maybe Cooper Cup, you know, to a certain extent, the Rams did such an intentional job of putting him in those spots last year. But even somebody like Jamar Chase was not like that last season.

He spent a lot of his time doing one or two very specific things just because he's a rookie and they're trying to bring him along slowly. By the end of this year, maybe you have three or four guys that are inching toward that sort of respect and that sort of prominence. But last year it was really Devante and then I think one step down from that was Cooper Cup. And now what does it end up looking like because of that? The only guy I will add in is before his time was up in Houston, DeAndre Hopkins,

when he was playing in an offense where they did move him around. Obviously, we know now when he goes to Cliff Kingsbury in Arizona. just playing, you know, left-wide receiver, like 500 steps at left-wide receiver. Like, that's, it's very different in the way that he can use his gravity. But with Houston, I mean, with Houston, it was Will Fuller. Will Fuller caught, you know, you know, 25 deep passes. And they're all because John Joe Hopkins, you know, had the safety's attention on, like, 20 of them. But, yeah, so those two, for me, in terms of gravity and in terms of, like, you know,

making them the focal point of the offense. For me, DeMonte Adams is, there's no one, I don't, you can put other people on the same line as him in terms of like where you rank the receivers. I just don't think there's anyone better than him, if that makes sense. And he just does, yeah, he just does everything. And that, you know, you're trying to like, be like, okay, what does this receiver do? What's he like? What does he do? And it's like, with guys like this, they just do everything.

He can run every route. And the coolest part was, I'd say coolest part. This is like a very small part. But I liked early on in the in the LaFloor tenure in Green Bay was they would use them as like a screen guy, like bubble screen. They still do, but like a lot less. The RPO guy, RPO screen, RPO bubble. So just put the ball in his hands. You can do literally everything.

So yeah, that's a tough loss I'd say for the backers. It's even beyond like the prominence within passing concepts that are more traditional. I'm like, all right, he's going to be the guy that we put in the slots or on a slot fade because we like this matchup. He's going to be the guy we put on this choice route because we like this matchup. I've always really appreciated when those two guys played together how they kind of had the game in the palm of their hand because of some of that RPO stuff. Like the control they could exert about the flow of a basketball game because they just could spit it out to him in those advantage looks and really just dictate on first and second down. It feels like a point guard. It feels like a point guard who has just.

just a real ability to kind of control the flow of a basketball game. And now you lose that. And I think that they'll be totally fine. They have the two-time reigning MVP as their quarterback, and they have an offensive coach who I think is very, very good. Without some of his staff, by the way, something that I think is worth mentioning. But an offensive coach that I think is very good. Now they're just kind of playing offense like everybody else does.

And I think that they have a really, really good quarterback, and they'll be fine doing that. But instead of saying, all right, we're going to put this guy in this, this spot and draw up this play for him. Now you're just running plays. And what Roger said to me yesterday is, now it's his job to determine what the matchup is within those individual plays rather than the structure of the play dictating the matchups. And I think that's going to be the biggest kind of overarching philosophical change in

the way that they operate. Look, like you said, they have Aaron Rogers. We're talking about one of the best quarterbacks of all time. He still is going to control everything in that offense. And I know that when you look up like the. on-off splits of DeVante Adams over the last couple of seasons. They've been pretty good without him. I don't love using that.

I don't like extrapolating that to a full season without your number one player. But they have been good with that. So there is like something to go off of. There's also like every year like before Devante Adams was drafted where Adam Rogers was still a really good quarterback and there was still a really good offense. So like there's obviously a lot to go to go off of minus Devante Adams. but I just really, it's going to look very different. It is going to look extremely different. I wonder if they run the ball a little bit more,

if they create more, you know, Advertain who just looks up play action for Rogers. I mean, they were good off all that stuff, but you could always just drop back and do some really cool stuff in a kind of like progression passing game with him that I don't know if you can do as much because you don't have to want to Adams.

I think that a few things you're going to see them to lean into a little bit more. They are going to push the limits of how you can use Pony Personnel 21 two back sets in the NFL in this day and age. I think we're going to see them do it in ways that really no one else has. If you look at the ways that a team like the Colts, I think have done it in an interesting ways over the last few years, Salada Nahim Hines lined up as a wide receiver in those sets where he's coming in jet motion and you can leak Jonathan Taylor out and play action.

And they've done a really good job of creating easy chunk completions out of those looks. I think you're going to see the Packers push the limits of what you can do with both of those guys line up in the shotgun next to each other on either side of Aaron Rogers and what that allows you to do because it provides some really cool flexibility. Defenses don't really know. Is that is it two by two? Is it three by one? How do we treat this? Which one of those guys can go out in the pattern? Which one of those guys is going to stay into pass protect? How deep are some of those routes? Is he going to run a choice route from that spot? Is he going to run a vertical route from that spot? I truly think they're going to do some stuff out of those looks that we've never really

seen a modern NFL team do before because those are their best 11 players. And I think that they have to figure out where the limits of that exact personnel package exists to figure out how the best version of their offense can exist. I see that 100% of the time. I think, you know, something that's popped in my head as you're talking. Just the lack of Devante Adams means a lack of trust, I would say, as of right now. You know, we haven't seen Rogers with the first team on television. yet in the preseason, but the trust in those one-on-one throws down the side.

You talk about the slot fade before. You know, that trust, he's clearly not there with, especially with their outside receivers. Like, I don't know who, you know, if Christian Watkins is going to get a lot of run, haven't really seen that early. We know Romeo Dubs is a Hall of Famer, so that clearly, you know, like, that's clearly going to be a guy who they're going to use on the outside. But, like, you've got to trust a guy that you can just put that ball in the back. shoulder and he's going to go make a play or you trust him enough that you know you know if he's even

i'm leaving and we're going to put the ball over top like that's such a big part of their offense too like we can talk about all those concepts they do and they go and dagger and they do this and drift and blah blah blah blah blah and it's like yeah well at the end of the day there rogers is the best back shoulder thrower of all time that's just a one-on-one route like it's all timing and trust that's all it is right like that's scary man i i would totally agree and i asked him about that yesterday i said just the how you guys were always on the same page, that mind mel that you've created, not having that.

And he said, you know, it's not to the same extent, but I feel very, very comfortable with Alan at this point. We've played together for a long time. He knows exactly where he's supposed to be. And now you're going to see Alan Lazard

on some of those more advantage type throws. Just think about a slot fade in your mind, okay? The outside guy is running a quick little hitcher stop route to pull that guy down, then the guy from the slot is running a fade. Alan Lazzard used to be that stop down, hitch guy on the right side.

because Adams was the guy running the fade. Now, Lazard's going to be the one inside running that fade, along with a bunch of other different type of people. So I think that's the guy he feels the most comfortable with. And obviously, Randall Cobb and him, they played together forever. At this stage in his career, I'm not sure how effective Randall Cobb would be in some of those we're going to draw shit up for you moments. I think with the younger guys, it's going to take a while.

I just do. He said that, you know, there have been some mental mistakes from Watson so far, which is to be expected. If the guy was hurt for a good chunk of training camp, there are going to be a lot of things that he has to get used to. So it's going to be fascinating. I will say, I think the one thing outside of the two-back stuff that's going to get cranked up, the amount of gimmicky bullshit that's going to be involved in how this offense runs,

I think it's hard to overstate. So you go back to that Arizona game last year when Adams had COVID. Lazzard missed it as well. But that, that I think is fine. I think that we can do more of a one-for-one transfer there because Equaminius St. Brown played and he's just that big-body guy that can do some of the things Lzard can do. on the first play of that game, you have Amari Rogers just streaking in jet motion and then then pitching the ball outside to Aaron Jones.

And just the amount of nonsense, like little leakout screens. They had Jones run a sluggo from the number one spot against Isaiah Simmons on the first drive. That's what you're going to see. I mean, you were just going to see so many interchangeable pieces, including the backs, doing a lot of weird shit within this offense because they used to be in a place where having Devante Adams put them in an advantageous spot. Just having him, period, did that. Now they have to put their guys in advantageous spots.

Yeah, and I think that's something that I think the floor will feel very comfortable doing. I totally agree. Where he's been, you know, in his coaching career. So I don't think that's a problem. You know, Roger said something a couple weeks ago and they asked him about this whole thing, where receivers and stuff, especially the rookie receivers. And he talked about, you know, I think they asked him whether, you know, it was good to get them reps in the preseason. He said, yeah, okay, yeah, it's okay to get them reps in the preseason.

But really, like, the issue with preseason is the defenses are so vanilla. And what we see in practice is real defenses where they have to make real adjustments on the fly. That's a great point. Figure out who's coming. And, like, so when I think about this offense, it's going into year four, right, LaFleur and Rogers. And we remember how slow. I mean, look, they got to the NFC championship game, but we still remember how slow this process was year one. and then it kind of exploded.

They got trusted each other, and it exploded the past two seasons. And now you're almost starting from scratch with all those adjustments. You know, like you said, like hot routes and site adjustments and understanding where the soft spots and coverage are with these young wideouts.

And one of them, you know, one of the two rookies are going to get a lot of playing time. You know, unless Sammy Watkins and Cobb are really, really prove themselves to that Aaron likes them. But like one of the, those two guys and probably dubs at this point are going to get a lot of run.

So this to me is another factor where it's like, okay, well, we have this complicated offense that we've been working towards for four years. Now we kind of have to take a step back in certain aspects. Again, I go back to the same thing. The quarterback is really good. And the quarterback is really good. They're going to be okay. But there's still a lot of, this is still interesting stuff to talk about.

And if they aren't good, I think we can go look back to this conversation we're having and probably find a few points. of why they're not good right here. I also think it's going to be more too tight-end stuff early on when Tanya gets back. Because Deguhr does like weird stuff for them and just like that dirty work kind of half-hybrid fullback tight-end stuff that they want him to do. I just think we're going to see a ton of different personnel package and a ton

of wonky efforts at solutions to problems. And I think that's going to be a huge part of what we see, especially early on when they're folding those guys in slowly because I don't think Dubs or Watson is going to be a full-time player. early on. I think it's going to be a ramp up even as we get into the regular season. All right. You want to move on to the guy that they're losing here and what he might look like in Las Vegas? Because your guest is as good as mine. You and I were talking about this before we were when we were talking about the show and kind of getting to it. Devante Adams with Josh McDaniels is a weird fit. And I'm not saying it's a bad fit. It's just so different than anything we've seen from the Patriots in 15 years.

I mean, really since Randy Moss was there, and Brandy Moss was a very different type of player than Devante Adams is. So was Brandon Cooks. I mean, Brandon Cooks was probably the best outside receiver that the Patriots have had in the modern Patriots era of offense. And he still isn't a guy like Devante Adams. What is your best guess for what type of usage Devante Adams is going to get with the Raiders? Yeah, that's a tough thing. And we have to also remember that they have two other pass catchers who are really good as well. in Las Vegas.

So it's like figuring out a role for all of them is going to be really interesting. Like you said, I mean, I don't know what this offense is going to. I think it'll clearly be good. They have too much talent for not to be good. Offensive line is an issue, as we know. But too much talent for not to be good.

I really, you know, this is a thing where I don't know what it's going to look like. I think he'll be mostly as an outside receiver. But, you know, even, and obviously this is a new offense with Josh McDonough's coming in. But, you know, they have Darren Waller. Darren Waller was like an extra receiver for them.

He would split out wide as like the ISO receiver in three by one and do run all that stuff, kind of like running the Kelsey stuff and, you know, all that good stuff. And it's like, well, it's tough to like not want to put obviously Devante Adams in that role. Not really obviously the role for Hunter Renfer. Renfell is going to be the slot receiver and do his stuff in there. And that's all that's going to be good. And obviously we know the Patriots have had so much success. success with those type of players.

So not really worried about Hunter Redfern in that way. It's just going to be where they play Waller and Devante Adams. And I'm kind of like you said, I'm kind of at a loss. There's going to be some similarities to what they did in Green Bay. He's going to be a one-on-one player. He's going to be back shoal. He's going to be over the top. He's going to run digs that get post-rots over the top open for him and all that stuff.

So there's going to, like, it'll be good. I just don't know like the usage rates and what concepts are going to run. talking about Waller is that outside X receiver is what I keep coming back to because I just think you waste Devante Adams by not using him inside a decent amount. And it's interesting with Green Bay because Green Bay's other receivers were all erasable. You could just kind of move them around because it didn't matter and put Devante wherever he was best. But Hunter Renfro isn't that way. He's not somebody you could just move around into different spots and kind of as a faceless receiver out there who blocks pretty well. he has to do one thing very specifically.

And Devante Adams, Devante Adams is so fucking good, man. You're just thinking about all the ways that we're talking about him. He's so good. Because one of the best things he does, he's incredible on choice routes. He is so, so good at them, but that's what Hunter Renfro does.

So having three guys now, really three guys, because Waller can do it too, and the Raiders did a ton of it over the last few years, how do you put the right guy in that, that spot if all of them do this thing pretty well. And that's, if I'm trying to draw a through line between what the Patriots have done forever, what the Packers did a lot of over the last couple years with Adams and what the Raiders did a lot of, because I'm sure Derek Carr is going to have some, this is what I like,

aspects to this. It's just choice routes and option routes. Because those three teams have done a shitload of that to great effect over the last few years. But so how do you get Devante inside? I think a lot of it is Waller as the number one guy. And I also think you can do some of that in M. because that's what the Patriots did a ton of when Brady was there. They went away with Mack last season.

But when Brady, his last season there, I think they were fourth in the league and empty dropbacks. So just think about that. If Wallers, furthest outside at number one, you have your running back furthest outside at number one on the other side. Now you have Renfro and Adams as inside receivers in some of those looks, and they can exploit that space, and then you have Waller all the way in the outside. These are just like spitball ideas because I truly don't understand how the pieces are all supposed to fit together in the right way, even if I do think the end result is probably going to

be pretty impressive. This just popped in my head as you were talking. So I could be totally off here, but I wonder if it looks like in the same way. Now, I think that they will move Devante Adams around a lot because he's just, again, we're talking about one of the best receivers in the game right now. But I look at what the Cowboys have done over the past few years when they brought in Amari Cooper, who is this like, you know, number one. receiver from the Raiders and then he bring him in here and he's really the quote unquote

Z receiver. Michael Gallup. I think he spent 99% of his routes off the line of scrimmage last year with the Cowboys, which I was shocked by when I saw that stuff. Gallup is on the line of scrimmage and then you have, you know, CD is in the slot and then now Gallup and C.D. are not comparable in their play style to Waller and Hunter Renfro, especially C.D. Lamb and Renfro. We understand that.

But they brought Cooper in and he played the Z receiver spot. So in like a Trips formation, he was the widest player to the three receiver side a lot. And like you said, off the line of scrimmage. So I think there's a way to do this where you can fit everyone in. But I do think it's going to, it's not just saying, okay, well, he's the Z and you're the X and that's it. And you're in the slot and we just run from there. It's like it's going to be complex, which is why I can't understand it because I don't have that type of. I don't have Josh McDaniel's brain, but like it's going to be complex.

There's going to be a lot of moving pieces. It's not just going to be like the X's over here all the time. The X is going to be here on some snaps and he's going to be there on other snaps. And I think that to me is the best way to get use of all these players. The Raiders' best four receivers on the field at the same time are Darren Waller, Devonte Adams, Hunter Renfro and Foster Moreau, correct? Yeah, 100%. and even what that looks like

I'm just like I don't know like where do those guys line up when they're all in the field together I don't know there are just so many questions and I'm fascinated to see what they think the answers to those should be

it's why the trade even when it happened I was like okay I guess I get it but so much of what Devante does well is because you could move them all over the place and now it almost even though you want the best players possible always like give me the best receiver that works

if you're thinking about how the pieces fit together having just a outside the numbers, vertical, I am an ex-receiver type player as part of this equation, actually makes more sense with the way the pieces fit than having somebody like Devante Adams.

This makes you more flexible, raises your ceiling, all of that stuff, but it's harder to conceive, I think, for people who have seen Josh McDaniels's offense in practice. Yeah, I think, you know, you're trying to,

they're going to have to find ways to take the top off of defenses, which in a sense they don't have. You don't think Conorrentfro can do that? I don't think so. But I think Devante could. That's because he's because this, we're talking about like, again, we're just like a guy who can do everything. I think he can be that guy who maybe gets more deep targets than he ever has.

Like I don't know. Maybe that, maybe that, I know, post routes and stuff like that. I don't know. I mean, corner routes. I don't know. But maybe that's, that's a way that they can, to a certain way like you said, kind of raise the ceiling. Well, how do you raise the ceiling? Well, he had you raised a ceiling, and that might be the guy who does it for them.

All right. Let's move on to another quarterback here. Patrick Mahomes is in a slightly different world now without Tyree Kill. Me and Nate talked about this a lot. We did our Top Ten Offenses show earlier this week, just about the ways that they've had to evolve already, the ways they'll continue to evolve. What is the number one thing you're excited to see

about this version of the Chief's offense without Tyreekill? The quick passing game. Because I think that a lot of people are saying, well, and like we've seen it in preseason so far. Like they're going to play with heavier personnel. They're going to go under center. They're going to run play action. I think that's good.

I think where they can be lethal is that Mahomes is lights out on quick stuff underneath, you know, eight yards or whatever. I think that's where you can also mitigate all this stuff that defenses are showing them. Certainly you can do it with a run game. Certainly you can do it with play action and getting safeties to bite up and all that stuff. But you can also do it with really good quick game passing. So that's where I'm like, okay. And I think they kind of have the players for that. Now, I will say Tarik Hill can do all that stuff anyways.

You can run a slide. You can run an out. Oh, we'll get to that. Yeah. So he can do that stuff. But I think that to me is where I'm most interested in. Because I just, now, I think that they can get through a regular season doing, doing that stuff. It's just like in the big games.

Like, you're going to need your quarterback to go and be super pinpoint in the underneath areas. And there were times last year where Patrick wasn't. And I don't think that's ever been his game. Now, because of the guy we're talking about here, Patrick Mahomes, you would believe that he can add this to his game, right? Because he's a savant, right? Like, he's that good. So, so like, that's to me where I'm curious. And I think they have the players, again, like I said, Tari could do a lot of stuff.

But, you know, I look at guys like Juju Smith-Juester. Skymore, I absolutely love. So, like, I think those are guys that I can do that stuff. Obviously, we know Travis Kelsey. I think another thing that I'm very interested about with this offense is where Travis Kelsey plays. He, whether he was like the isolated receiver or, any other time he was on the line of scrimmage, his stats were just not that good. And I wonder, so the first thing you have to ask yourself with Travis Kelsey is the age.

He's going to turn 33, I think, in October or something like that. He's not a kid anymore. He was, like, obviously, like, the box score stats were there. He caught, like, 92 balls or whatever, a thousand, whatever yards. Like, he's always going to have that. He's that good. But there was a definite slowdown. He couldn't get off press as well as he could,

and that was a big part of why they had some issues, the chief's offense. I think moving him around, getting him off the line of scrimmage, is going to do wonders. I think having a guy like Sky Moore who could potentially play X, I think Juju may be able to do that. I think that, you know, having him be the isolated player like that is going to help the whole offense, because I think it takes some pressure off of Travis Kelsey.

And those are the things I'm kind of curious about in this offense. It's funny because I think people are looking at Skymore and Juju and thinking, all right, how can these guys help the chiefs operate in the world that we've seen the chiefs operate in before, right? If teams are going to be putting a roof over them, they're going to be having to play against more soft zone coverage and these guys can operate in soft zone coverage. It's what Juju does. It's literally the thing that he's best at.

I kind of am going the other way where this team. him faced 300, this team played 315 snaps against seven or eight defenders in the box last season, okay? 315. Here's some context. The next closest team in the league was at 368, okay? So, 53 more snaps than the chiefs had. The Niners, 615.

The Niners played 300 more offensive snaps with seven or eight defenders in the box than the chiefs did last year. and I have to assume part of this decision, and I don't want to read too much into one preseason game, even though I do think they're going to do a little bit more of it. But it's the reason the bills did this last year. I want to get some fucking linebackers on the field. I just want to make this a tiny bit easier on us

and a tiny bit easier on our quarterback. So are they going to see less of that? And so maybe having juju is nice, but at the same time, that's where MVS comes in. They still have some juice on the outside. How they decide that the way, they're going to try to dictate to defenses this year, that to me is going to be one of the biggest things that I'm watching

because I just have this inkling that they just don't want to slam their heads against the wall for an entire another season again the way they had to last year. And when Tyreek not on the field, they don't really have to. They're not obligated to try to build their offense this way. So you bring up the bills is something that I want to talk about because I think when you talk about them bringing heavier personnel on the field, and it happened, I believe, around their week nine matchup after they lost to Jacksonville last year.

They scored like, what, six points in Jacksonville? And the bills for, you know, all of 2020 and like, let's say the first half of 2021 were this like super spread team. And no one really wanted to talk about it because we were all like, you know, salivating over the Kansas City Chiefs, the Chess, the Kansas City Chiefs who were like this, you know, again, the super spread, the super spread team.

and like, oh, spread offense and Andy Reid is taken from college football and we use that narrative. And it's like, oh, the bills were like the spreadiest team that you'll ever see, right? And they got nervous. And they said, okay, wait a minute. We had a tough one at week one against the Steelers. We had a really tough one at week nine against the Jaguars. And we got to do something different here. We can't just put this all on our two best kind of players to just always make a play.

and that's Josh Allen and Stefan Diggs. And that's kind of what, to a certain degree, what the Chiefs were doing. It's like, well, we can't just always put this on Mahomes and, you know, Kelsey slash Tyree Kill. Like, we got to find a way. So what the bills did was we're going to go under center. We're going to put a fullback on the field. We're going to make you think we're going to run the football. And the funniest thing was over the second half of the season, their pass rate on first down was the same.

You know what changed? They went from like 29th in play action to fifth in play action. They faked you out. They fooled everyone. They said, oh, yeah, yeah, no, we're changing everything, guys. Like, oh, we can't do the spread thing anymore. And then they still threw the ball, like whatever, 65, 80, 70 percent of time, whatever it was on first time. I think that's where we're going to see.

I don't think you want to run, like, like you said kind of in that too high world. You don't want to live in a world where, okay, all we're seeing is too high. We're going to beat our head against the wall. You kind of don't want to do that with running the football either. So you can hopefully fool some teams like the bills did into thinking you're going to run the football with your heavier personnel packages and then actually throw it like the bills did. That's exactly what I'm getting at. That's what I think that their strategy is going to be to some to a certain extent. Reggie Gilliam last year, zero snaps in week nine, 21 snaps in the backfield and is an inline tight end in week 10.

Let's go. Good job by you, buddy. Very good there. All right. Let's move on. I want to talk about AJ Brown and how he fits into this Eagles offense. We've talked about this a little bit, this idea that I think that J.1 Hertz targeted the middle of the field on 9% of his dropbacks last season, which was the lowest rate in the entire

league by a ridiculous amount. AJ Brown is most dominant over the middle of the field as a receiver. How are you squaring those two things in the way that AJ Brown fits within this offense? Yeah, it's weird, right? It's like he fits and he doesn't fit in the offense. He fits because I don't know if you know this about AJ Brown, but he is a hell of football player. And hell of football players fit.

He's very good. Does a lot of stuff. Those players fit in any offense. But you're 100% right. Hertz has not targeted the middle of the field over his two seasons. You're hoping that some development and some trust comes into play here. And the trust that it, AJ Brown will win on all these in-breaking routes slants and ins and all that stuff,

glass routes, like all that stuff that he's so good. I like you said. So you're just hoping that there's an uptick in like processing to a certain degree or maybe not even processing just a willingness to throw to those areas. But I also think that Asia Brown can, like I said, he can do other stuff. He can run comebacks. He can run a lot of stuff. I think it'll be interesting seeing their usage with the tight ends.

and DeVante Smith, two outside receivers, right? And I think you'll get, and it's really up to Hertz now, but I think you'll see some stuff that the kind of Titans, in a sense, tried to do last year by having two elite outside receivers in Julio Jones and A.J. Brown. Now, is Devante Smith, Julio Jones? No, obviously. in terms of like the fact that one of them is clearly going to the Hall of Fame,

one of them is in the second year, but also just the fact, play style, we understand that we have a very big receiver and a very small receiver. But he can win on the outside Devonte Smith. Like he's a nasty man out there, man. We are forgetting how good Devante Smith is in this AJ Brown conversation. Everyone consistently is.

I was there the first day, I was at camp, the first day he was back. I was like, holy shit. I totally forgot how good this guy is in football. And now he's in his. real role. He is a 1B kind of number two receiver, a supercharged version of that, and I think that he is going to really turn some heads when the season starts. So you can run all that stuff that I think that, like I said, the tights were trying to do, not maybe in exactly the same

way, but you can do some of that stuff that they were trying to do and have it work. And again, it does go back to Hertz, you know, his willingness to throw those type of balls. But I'm excited for this offense. I know you had them, um, I'm, kind of in between, I think, where you and Nate had them on your list of offenses. But I will say they might be on my top five list of offenses to watch on a weekly basis, because I think they're going to be fun. When they get the quarterback run game going, when they get opportunities where they're playing with two tight ends on one side, your friend would call them like Y, Y, Y, Wing.

Yeah, hip slot. Hip slot. Hip slot, that's the one. And they can now put A.J. Brown in the slot on the same side as Devonte Adams. As Devanta Smith, like that is a cool formation, and they can do so much stuff in the run game and the past game. To me, I'm most curious to see what this offense looks like than anyone else in the league,

because I think you have really good options there with Goddard and included. So I like it. I'm curious about Jalenhurst development. That's really the only hold up here. If he can be the player good and going into his third season, I'm like, he's got to be that player now. He's got to throw the ball over the middle of the field, but cautiously optimistic about them.

I don't even think that his processing needs to take this huge jump for them to start attacking that area of the field. You wrote a piece in February about the uptick in RPO usage around the NFL. And there are more teams doing it. I think it was 17% of all dropbacks or something within that range. It's a pretty drastic difference from what it was even two or three years ago. And the Eagles used a ton of RPO's last year. But if you look at relatively, when if you look at where they were targeting the field on those RPO's, it's all in the flat.

It's all like little shitty, terribly inefficient throws on those RPO's. Just flip it a little bit. And I went back and watched, I know Hertz wasn't playing. The first drive of their preseason game against the Browns, they ran two RPO's both hitting over the middle of the field. I know. And one of them, I actually think this is perfect because teams run more man against the Eagles than you think they would. because of all the RPO's, I think, in part. Because with a running quarterback, you wouldn't normally see it,

but a lot of teams play man against RPO's. So it was a pick play with a slant RPO from the number one receiver. It was like the second drive of the game or the first drive of the game. And I watched that, I'm like, there it is. Like, that's not a complicated play. It's actually a very simple play that's not asking your quarterback to read out a lot. So if they lean into that kind of stuff where that's just easy money. Like you're not asking your quarterback to do a ton.

You're putting your best player in the best possible position, and you're creating space for him with a little pick. That's the type of stuff I don't want to see more of. The other thing, they ran it with Minchu, just downhill quick hitting play action from under center. And I don't know if they want to do that with Hertz. If you look at the numbers among quarterbacks at least 200 dropbacks last season or 200 attempts,

Jalen Hertz was 30th of 33 quarterbacks in undercenter play action plays, 29 of them. Ryan Tanna Hill was number one at 142. Do they want to keep Hertz in the gun because of just his ability to run the ball. Do they feel like they're kind of defanging their run game if they don't do that? I just think you're giving away opportunities if you don't sprinkle a little of that, a little bit more of that into your offense because of what AJ Brown can do.

I agree. And again, that goes back to like, what were the Titans? And you just mentioned it. You just mentioned Ryan Tannhill. Like, what were they when they were clicking? It's downhill run game. And then the quick glance route for a big play to whoever was. playing receiver for them and mostly AJ Brown.

And then his yards after catch numbers are incredible. So I think that you will see an uptick there. It just, it's tough because, you know, I always go back to the Saints game last year. And I'm like, they just could give, they gave the Saints so many problems in the quarterback run game. And all that comes from Hertz being gun, right? Like that you can't, you're not going to run triple option from under center, right? So it's like, but it is, it is just.

finding that balance because I do think those are big plays and I've seen teams try and run that type of those type of play action concepts from gun and I don't think it hits the same way and that's kind of obviously the issue it just doesn't so yeah I think I think they'll have to find that balance because it is using you know the guy you just traded a bunch of first round picks for the best period from what we've seen now maybe that was maybe that was a thing where he was tied to Ryan Tannahill, and that's what Tannahill wanted to do, and that's what the Titans wanted to do, and maybe we can see him kind of become a more, to a sort of be well-rounded receiver in terms of the routes he's running. But I agree with you that they're going to have

to do more of that to get him involved, at least early until they figure it out. I also think that when you watch the second version of the Titans' offense, kind of the year after they were this efficiency monster, the first year at the Tannhill was there with Arthur Smith, they had a lot of change-ups where you got those big overs or you. even kind of those glance routes and he's breaking back outside because you're playing with tendency. And that's where J. J.1 Hertz can throw the ball.

And they might be Galaxy Brain in this where they're like, we know teams think that we're going to do this. So we're going to already go to the change up that we have that our quarterback is actually better at throwing. So I'm totally with you. I cannot wait to see what it looks like with him and Smith and this run game and where J. Hurtz takes a step forward. But I do think that trying to tap into that as much as possible is the easiest way to use

AJ Brown. And it doesn't even require that much of magic. We already see them doing some of that shit in the preseason game, even if it's with Gardner-Minchu. All right. Let's get to our next receiver here. Tyreek Hill going to Miami. So I don't think this is as complicated as I thought it was going to be because I went and I went back and I watched a ton of Debo targets from last season. Tyreek Hill can just beat Debo Samuel.

Outside of the run game stuff, I don't think they're going to put him in shotgun and let him run the ball a hundred times. But the ways that they created yak opportunities for Debo Samuel, I think we underrate how stout of an athlete Tyree Kill is. Like other than, I mean, there are a couple different things to dig into, but I think it's more of a one-for-one kind of just throw him into that role than it might seem at first glance. I really do. So again, like I said it before, Tyree Kill can play, he's good so he can play a lot of different routes. He can play a lot of those positions. He's good. he can take slants to the house

he takes out routes he takes like six yard outrouts and then he faces up the defender and he makes a move for a first down there's no one else in league does that so he can do all that stuff you know so that that I kind of agree with

for me when I think about the Dolphins offense I'm very curious about the tight end usage and all that stuff that's going to be the biggest question for me like you're I don't someone someone had said this to me, like, that Mike McDonnells had said that, you know, they want Gisiki to be more of an

inline blocker. It's like, well, look, I don't know. I don't see him as that type of player. Like, so when I think about the 49ers offense with the past couple of years and what they've been able to do personnel-wise, which is have a fullback on the field and have a tight-in on the field, it's like, yeah, but those guys are different. Kyle Eusek and Kittle are different players, man. Like, they can do whatever you want them to do. Gassiki can't do that. We haven't seen him do that.

He's a really good wide receiver. He's literally a wide receiver. He plays the most snaps by a tonne outside, right? So, like, he's a good wide receiver. He's just not a good tight end right now. And so that's the thing that scared, like, that I just don't know about that offense. Because now you're talking about you've got to have Gassiki on the field, I think, because I think he is a good receiver.

Well, guess what? You also have to have the two actual receivers on the field. and Jalen Waddle and Tari Kill. So tough to be this three wide receiver offense and then still want to play with a fullback, still want to play with another tight end who can actually sit there in line and block people. So I keep going back to the same thing

where I'm like, I think this offense is going to look like the Miami Dolphins offense from last year with another piece involved. Because I think no, I think you're going to see more, I think you're going to see more boot plays, right? We already saw it in the preseason a little bit, booting, Tua out. You're going to see all that quick hitting glance stuff, which you ran with Debo and Brandon Ayuk.

You're going to get Waddle and you're going to get Tyreek and you're going to get Siki on those routes. You're going to get the RPO's. I just think you're going to have more shotgun. Not that the 49ers didn't kind of run from shotgun. They had some good runs out of shotgun. You're just going to see more of it. So then I'm like, well, that's just kind of kind of look like the Dolphins offense from last. year just it's just like it should be better right like we we we think that mike madamele is a good

coordinator a good a guy who's going to put players in the right positions okay so it'll be better we think that adding a guy like tyro kill will make the whole offense better great so it should be better obviously we know it comes down to toa but the offensive scheme should be just better but it it might really look kind of similar to last year i the tight end thing is a huge question. And I don't know how it ultimately shakes out. I think they live in 21 personnel and see what happens. Because I think that we're trying to make one-for-one comparisons, Alec Ingold is closer to Kyle Eusecheck than Mike is to Sicky is to George Kittle, as far as skill sets go. And I would try to do as much of that as I could. Because I think Engel's

kind of a fun player. I think some of the things the raiders asked him to do over the last couple years, I can see that. When I'm talking about the ways that Debo was used as a receiver, when you think about, so if you look at the numbers for this, okay, Debo was number one in Yakper reception last year in the NFL. Brandon Ayuk was sixth. Strangely enough, Cedric Wilson was ninth. Guarantee you, that's not a coincidence as to why he's on that team right now.

But if you think about, and some of the Debo stuff is just tunnel screens. Think about the one he took to the house against the Cowboys. And Tyree can do that. If you just want to pitch it out to him, give him a layup and let him go to work, I think we're going to see a decent amount of that. But I'm thinking about all of those high lows over the middle of the field, where the number or two receiver is just sitting down, and they're trying to pin down whoever that guy is,

and then Debo's coming on that big glance route behind it. And that Niners' offense is just throwing the ball into windows. It's throwing the ball into windows and letting guys just go. And when I thought about Tyreek fitting with Tua, my first thought was vertical, taking the top off all that stuff, and I'm like, no, that's not what they want to do with him. They want to use that speed going horizontal. If he's catching the ball in a window,

he's just outrunning safeties that just don't have an angle. He's just erasing angles on his way to the end. zone. And that's where Debo did a ton of his damage last year. And I think that that's where Tyree can do a ton of his. So if you want to have, say, Gisicki is kind of flexed out in that spot. He's just sitting down, pulling down linebackers and letting Tyreek work behind it, or Jalen Wadok can do that. So now you have two guys that if we're getting them moving left to right or right to left, getting them the ball in a window, we're just trying to have them and race leverage on the way to the end. So we're getting them the ball on the move as often as possible. And I do think that works. The biggest difference is that we talked about it with the Chiefs. Jimmy last year was number one in plays with seven or eight defenders in the box, number one in the NFL, and he missed two games, and he got there. He was sixth in the league and covered three snaps last season,

despite how little the Niners threw the ball relatively. He was fourth in EPA per dropbacks on those looks. When you look at the defenses the Niners were playing against, it looks like 2013. team. It's very weird when you think about the broader trends around the league and some of the things they could do because of that where you have Iyuk lifting the coverage and then you have Debo coming out a big over route behind it. A lot of that shit doesn't work anymore because teams aren't willing to play that way. But when you're lining up with 21 and 12 and running the

ball all the time, you have to do that. And I just don't know if the dolphins have the personnel and the fortitude to stick with a game plan that keeps teams in those sorts of defenses and then what does the offense look like? That to me is the biggest disconnect. between what the Niners have been and what the Dolphins can be. Because I think those routes over the middle of the field, two is fine. He can throw a slant to Tyree Kill. He can throw a glance to Tyree Kill. I don't think that's the most difficult quarterbacking in the world.

I think he can do some of the shit that Jimmy Garapolo did, but it's whether they have the offensive structure to allow that to happen. And then there's the added thing, which is like, well, what were the things that caused the 49ers to have issues when they had issues, which is like, we can't get the ball down the field to these playmen. Like, Debo, you talk about Debo and Kittle and, and, uh, and Iyuk. I mean, those are really good players. They're probably, like, they're going to see a completely different usage out of all

three of those guys with Trey Lance there, regardless of whether Trey Lance is good or not. Like, you're going to see completely different usage. So going back to the Dolphins, it's like, okay, well, we, we know that we can do this type of stuff. It's going to be part of our offense, like you said, those like, and that offense, when it's clicking, it's beautiful to watch. When they're getting the ball out, one, two, three, and throwing those speed digs and glances and all stuff, it's beautiful. It's like, can we hit those balls down the field? And that's obviously been to his issue as well, right? Like, can we

get the ball down the field? Now, obviously, you are, you've gotten better. You have a guy who tracks the ball at an elite, an elite kind of skill, skill rate, like entirely kill. Like, over the top ball is still go get them. So you're hoping that that adds to a, another year of Tua development, going into this third year, and then B, just a guy who will go track down those balls, I think is a good bet

that they will be able to do those things that the 49ers couldn't. Now, again, it goes back to Tua, but I think you're probably in a better spot there with those receivers. It's interesting having two guys that theoretically can be the one who lifts the third level off the defense,

and then the one who can exploit that space horizontally. Having two of those people and the way that you can kind of interchange them theoretically. That's a cool idea. And I'm curious to see what it looks like in practice. All right, let's get to our next one here. Justin Jefferson is walking into an offense that I am very excited to see Justin Jefferson walking into.

What are you looking for with Justin Jefferson's fit and what Kevin O'Connell does and how it fits in this Rams-esque system? Yeah, I wonder if it's going to be, it's interesting. It's very interesting. because I think like he could do he probably could do more than Cooper Cup in terms of usage and alignment and stuff like that. I'm not saying he's better than Cooper Cup. I'm just saying like in terms of usage and stuff like that he can probably add to it more. And I just wonder. He can run by people.

Yeah. So it's like it's a different player and as a guy who you want as a focal point of the offense. And he's a good blocker man. He's a dog. like you're you're getting a guy who you can really move around in ways that I think you maybe had a little more trouble with given the personnel that you wanted on the field under the last regime. Bingo.

So now you can you're going to play more 11 personnel. I mean, look, they're going to run outside zone. They've been running outside zone for the past 10 years. They had, you know, the Kubiaks were there. So like that in a sense is not going to change. You're going to get play action off it. Kirk is going to look good again. On those type of plays, you're talking about getting a lot of cover three.

I mean, that's the Vikings. Get a lot of cover three. Put a full back on the field. Get a lot of cover three. And then it just using Jefferson on the outside to run what we saw from OBJ last year. You know, last in the progression, big in route. If the quarterback needs him, he's got him. He's going to be open.

But, you know, you could see him as, like, the guy who's running the cup routes, you know, call it like arches or whatever, the middle of the field, like using Jefferson off the line of scrimmage, getting a bigger player in front of him, I mean, he's a big guy, but like getting another guy in front of him to kind of pick for him to get free releases and stuff like that. I think there's so much stuff you can do with this guy because he's that talented. But like I said, I think, like, being able to move him around is going to be the big. its difference, I think, going from what honestly on paper, not on paper, but when you watch a play, it'll probably look kind of similar from the broadcast view, from what they've done in the past. But moving around, being more 11 personnel, I think is the way to go there.

It's the biggest change. So the Rams last year, 83.3% of their plays in 11, number one rate in the league. Vikings were at 42%. There's 29th in the league. So almost twice as many snaps, which the three receivers on the field. So just think about that. If there are three receivers on the field and Jefferson can play all the spots, the game you're going to have to play before every snap is where the fuck is Justin Jefferson? And you're going to have to do that consistently because Justin Jefferson can do anything you want an outside receiver can do.

He can run past people. He can run those dig routes that you're talking about, totally comfortable doing that. In college, Justin Jefferson was a slot receiver who ate on choice routes. That's what he was. People weren't sure if he could play outside in the NFL. So now you're moving him back into a place in this offense where he's going to run a lot of those choice routes on third down, and he's totally comfortable doing it. And that's what when you're saying he can do more stuff than Cooper Cup. He can do all the stuff that Cooper Cup can do as a receiver, and he can be your prototypical outside the numbers.

I am an outside receiver. This is what I do. But within this offense, they're not going to ask him to be that all the time. He spent 25% of his Routes in the slot or snaps in the slot last year. I would say it's at least 50 this season. I would not be surprised by that at all. And you just didn't see that many stacks and bunches

in that offense last year because you didn't have that many receivers on the field. You can't do it if you've got a fullback and a tight end on the field. So I went there. And it's funny because I think a lot of the time when you're having these shifts between ideologies offensively, they think,

is this a square peg in a round hole? does this make sense. But with the Vikings, their best group of players is KJ Osborne, Adam Thielen, Justin Jefferson, and Irv Smith.

That is their best group. So they're not square peg round holeing it. And I think that part is really interesting. I was up there. I talked to multiple members of their coaching staff about this. And I think that the one thing you will not see, I don't think you'll see Justin Jefferson in the run fits quite as often as you did with Cooper Cup.

He can do some of it. But I don't think he wants to do as much of that dirty work. think they'll ask him to do as much of that dirty work. He was really good at LSU because, like you said, he played in the slot. So like when LSU won a lot of tight bunch in 2019, so given that he was always going to be the slot guy, like he had to be in the grime, in the muck. And he was good, man. He was really good.

So again, he doesn't need to do it. We're in the NFL now. He don't need to do it in the same way the cup would have done it or Robert Woods would have done it. He could, I think, if he wanted to. He absolutely is capable of it, but I don't think that they're going to ask him to do it quite as much. He's not putting his face in there on combo blocks as often as Cooper what Cup was over the last couple of years. And I'm really interested in what we're going to dig more into this when Nate and I talk about first year play callers tomorrow in relation to Kevin O'Connell and what the structure of the offense overall looks like.

But I'm telling you, I think you're going to see Justin Jefferson do as many things as you saw Cooper Cup do last year outside of the run blocking. And the biggest thing with that is, how are you going to do? double him. Like how? You just can't do it. Really the only game talking to people with the Rams and the Vikings about that Cooper Cup was doubled last season, truly doubled was the Cincinnati game in the Super Bowl. And it's because OBJ went out. That was the only reason. They could truly double him because they didn't have to worry about Beckham. And there's really no way to do it when you're putting him in these situations. Like what you said, when you're giving him free releases on some of those plays, it's going to be really, really difficult for teams to double him. And when I think

Thielen and him together on the same side is something you didn't see a lot of last year just because there weren't a lot of receivers in the field. You're going to see more of that. And the last thing I will say, and this is kind of digging in the conversation that I'm going to have with Nate tomorrow. CJ Ham is a good player. That is the biggest personnel difference between this group with the Vikings and what the Rams had over the last couple of years. And I'm excited about 21 personnel with the fullback that's broken up and empty. I think you're going to see a lot of that with the Vikings, similar to what the Patriots have done in years past, similar to what the Niners do every once in a while,

where that fullback is at the number one receiver spot, you kind of have to honor him as a receiver because C.J. Hamm can do that type of stuff and what it opens up for you elsewhere. That's like the one little wrinkle that I'm sure Nate and I will talk about. I will say as much as I like C.J. Ham, who is kind of like the modern fullback. Like if we're not talking about Kyle Eusechak,

because that's like a completely different type of player, you're talking about in gold and ham really the modern fullback i wonder if i wonder if davell cook actually looks better in more single back sets that he just seems like that type of player he's a really smart running back like i wonder if he's if that's if it if it makes him like a little more um you know the spreadier concepts in the run game help him a little bit more i'm not sure but uh his numbers in 11 personnel i don't have him in front of me but they're very good over the last few years And I'm excited to see him in that too. I don't think C.J. Hamill play nearly as much as he had over the last couple of seasons.

But I think they'll sprinkle him in in ways that the Rams obviously couldn't because they literally didn't have one on the roster over the last few years. All right. Last guy you wanted to talk about. Somebody that I think is in new circumstances, it's kind of an underrated way. And that's Michael Thomas. We have not talked about the potential changes or the tweaks within the Saints offense at all on this show. But I know that your brain is focused on that a lot more. than mine is.

So what did you want to get into with Michael Thomas and what you think might be different this year? He's back. I say that as the news comes out that he has a hamstring injury. But he just, you know, you're looking at the videos from training camp and stuff. And like he's as smooth as ever. And you think about the Saints and where they were a year ago, even with, you know, when James was, you know, with their starting quarterback healthy,

the receiving court was absolutely abysmal last year. Just not very good at all. And now what you've done is you've added hopefully two number one receivers. You're definitely, if he's healthy, have Michael Thomas, who's a number one receiver. And you took a guy 12th overall in the draft. I mean, he better be a number one receiver. You're taking a lot. You traded all those picks for him.

So, like, you're adding two number one receivers. You're getting your starting quarterback back. I think this could be a low-key, like, dominant offense this year. Now, the offensive line needs to be better, for sure. The guy they picked a couple of picks after Chris Olavet has got to play well as a pass protector. But I think this is, this can be a really dominant office. Because I think one of the issues that Saints had last year was, I looked at a guy like Marquez Calloway and he played the Michael Thomas role to a certain degree.

and he's just not that player. Good number two, um, ish, but he's just not that player. And then you're getting a guy back who, who no matter who the quarterback is, they will have trust in finding Michael Thomas.

And then, you know, one of the things about Chris Olavé that I'm really interested in is, I do think there's a role for him down the field, although the saints do have Deonti Hardy, who's, who's put up some really good numbers on, on kind of deep targets and stuff like that.

It's just like, he could be another well-rounded receiver. You look at what he was doing in the preseason. He's winning on slants. He's went on outs. He's winning down the field. He could win him in a lot of different ways. And I think it creates this offense that with Kamara there,

with Taysam Hill in his good position, which is a tight end who can really block and really run routes. Like, it could be really dangerous. How do you feel like Alabe is different? What do you think he gives them that really no other results? where this play with Michael Thomas has given them. Because that's kind of what it feels like to me. Just in terms of the vertical juice that he can provide that offense,

along with all the well-rounded stuff that you mentioned. Yeah, because it's the vertical juice is like not like Ted again, Debrie Henderson, those guys. That's all they have. They gave you one thing, right? Exactly, right? Robert Meacham, they gave you one thing. And he gives you hopefully more than just that.

and that's where he can win one on one. If they're trying to double Thomas he can win on the other side of the field. So he can play in the slide and play out wide, just like Thomas can play in the slide out wide. So I think that to me is where

kind of, you know, even Brandon Cooks is kind of that that would probably be the closest, like the one year that Cooks and Thomas played together that Thomas was a rookie day. I wasn't sure if they had when I asked that question. Yeah.

Well, I think Thomas's emergence in 2016 as a rick. It was the reason they traded Cooks in the first place because they said, well, we have to sky, by the way. So, you know, that would be probably the closest because I think Cooks kind of gets underrated as a well-rounded receiver as well. So that to me was the closest. Yeah. And then again, it's just like, James for a full season. Now, I will say, you talk to any Saints fan and you happen to be talking to one right now. But you talked to the New Saints fan, and we're like, oh, my God.

If we had James for a full season, there's no doubt they'd be in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah. If you go look at my tweets during the first five weeks of the season, even though the Saints were like five and one or four in one at that time, you will see the biggest hater of all time. It's like, he's not throwing the ball. Why is he taking a shot down field and all that stuff? So it's like we've romanticized the quick start by the Saints last year before that James. Ian Book and Trevor Simian, it'll do that to you, by the way. You start telling yourself a story real fast. Travis Simmons, he's yours now.

And treat him well because I thought he was very solid for the Saints last year. And I fell in love with him. But I'm glad to have James back. I'm happy for you, buddy. I think that the prospects for your NFL team to bring this back around of this way we started the conversation might be a little bit better than mine. Seth Galena, really, really appreciate you doing this, my friend. always love chatting about this stuff with you.

Really appreciate the time, buddy. We'll chat with you soon. See ya. All right, guys. That's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Seth for his time. Thank you guys for listening. We will be back tomorrow with Nate.

We're going to talk about some first year play callers that we are excited about going into this season. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. One more thing. please subscribe to our YouTube page. The Athletic Football Show and The Athletic.

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