The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - David Bakhtiari joins the show, NFL Winston Wolfe/Mike Ehrmantraut with Charles McDonald, and Zac Jackson stops by for a Cleveland Browns Team Visit

Episode Date: December 2, 2020

First, For The Win’s Charles McDonald joins the show and the guys play a little NFL Winston Wolfe/Mike Ehrmantraut, to lay out fixes for the Atlanta Falcons, New York Jets, Houston Texans, and Detroit Lions, all in various degrees of trouble heading into this offseason and beyond.Then, Robert is joined by Green Bay Packers OT David Bakhtiari to discuss the weirdness of being congratulated on his big-money contract, the biggest difference between the player he is today and the rookie version of himself, his game week process, Aaron Rodgers, empty arenas, and more.Plus, to close things out, The Athletic’s Zac Jackson stops by for a Cleveland Browns Team Visit to discuss early returns in the Kevin Stefanski Era, the team’s trajectory moving forward, Baker Mayfield’s future with the franchise, critical games against Pittsburgh and Baltimore, and more.You can still enjoy The Athletic’s Black Friday offer through December 4, to get a year subscription for just $1 a month, by visiting http://theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Green Bay Packers left tackle, David Bactiari is joining us a little bit later. We had an extended conversation with him. It was a really good time. Zach Jackson, who covers the Browns for the Athletic,

will be joining us later for our weekly team visit. Before we get to any of that, though, I am pleased to welcome. For the wins, Charles MacDonald. Have you been introduced that way yet? No, I haven't. is the first time. So look at that. This is nice.

So you used to work for the New York Daily News, which was a very boring job where nothing happened. Exactly. And so we will just leave it at that. You covered the Jets for them. You're a Falcons fan. And coming off the Eagles game last night, it felt like those two teams, Philadelphia, the Lions firing their GM, there's a lot of conversations about tear downs right now.

And what teams need to do over the next year, two years to kind of get back where they want to go. So I thought that would be a good subject for today. I wanted us to kind of play NFL Winston Wolf or NFL Mike Airman Trout where we're the fixers for these five franchises that we're going to go through. So I want to start with your Atlanta Falcons. And we were talking before you came on and your tone was pretty dower here about what it's going to look like for the next year in Atlanta. So if you're kind of laying out the steps for what you want to see the Falcons do with their new general manager, their new head coach, and this expensive roster.

Walk me through the first few things that are just at the forefront of your mind. Well, I think the first thing that you kind of have to note with this offseason that's different from normal off seasons is like the cap could like really be rock or down from, you know, the restructure that they have with the CBA and in terms of getting ready for this season with coronavirus. I mean, we're looking at like five or six teams that are going to be like way over the capper next season and the Falcons are one of them. So, you know, I was just on the Spowtrack website playing around the little managed roster thing.

And like right now, as things stand, the Falcons are like $25 million over the cap. And, you know, they've kind of hit this spot. Like if you've played Madden a lot and you play your franchise mode and you get to a point where you've drafted all these good players and you're signing them the big deals and you hit this one off season right where you're way over the cap and you have like 30 players on your team and you're like, oh, let me just start over because this is not going to be fun. And that's where the Falcons are right now. So I just kind of jotted down some notes about some potential cap casualties with their key free agents. So the key free agents next year are Alex Mack, who may very well retire at the end of the season. Todd Gurley, who I don't think is like an essential person that you have to bring back. And then Keanu Neal, who is interesting, you can bring back on a one-year deal just based on how he's played recently.

And he's kind of gets his legs back. I mean, he's been after those ACL and accused his tears. and just based off like that Raiders game on Sunday, he looked like he'd be back to being a first round pick status. They all played so fast last week. We can talk about it in a second, but the way that they were playing downhill, a lot of guys all over that defense,

and he really jumped out. And I think that's interesting, what his value will be when you consider the injury history. But when he's playing fast, aggressive, everything else, he just still jumps off the screen. It's amazing. Right. And so you have those guys that are going to be free agents naturally,

and then you have the potential cap casualty. And I jotted down four that financially makes sense for the Falcons to like kind of eat that dead cap, which is safety, Ricardo Allen, offensive lineman, James Carpenter, defensive lineland, defensive of linens, defensive tackle, Tyler Babeson, right? So if you cut those four players, you get down to- You're still $10 million over the cap. Right. You're still like $8 or $9 million over the cap.

And that gets you down to a whopping 28 players on the team, which to me is like, that's kind of where I got stuck. Like I don't consider myself to be a master. with cap resources or cap figures, but someone's going to have to get restructured, whether Dante Fowler, which has turned up to be a horrific signing, Dion Jones, Matt Ryan, Jake Matthews.

Like, someone's going to have to have some money move from next year to following years just to get under the cap. And, I mean, then you still have, like, 30 players that you can sign before the season starts. Like, whoever ends up taking this role on, it's like, it's kind of, you know, good news, bad news, because you have some good players like Matt Ryan and Julio Jones

and Grady Jared and those guys, but you got a lot of work to do to get underneath the cap and then figure out how to retool this and make this a competitive roster for next year. Like, I do not envy that person at all. I mean, this seems like absolutely hell to work through. It's not a good situation. And you talked about those casualties, and I think a lot of those names make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they cut Fowler. It's $15 million in dead money, but he has an $18 million cap it.

So you're saving a couple million and you're saving, I think, $7 million in cash. because of the way that it works out and the way that the guaranteed salary works. So he absolutely could be gone. But even if you do all that, you're still over the cap. And I think it, this is not surprising, right? The Falcons went all win. They, I believe, are fourth in the NFL

in cap spending on offense this year. That's what they've done. They've spent a ton of money on their offense. They've spent a ton of resources on their offense when you consider what the drafters look like in the amount of first round picks they've spent in that area. So I think it leads us to a couple really big questions about what you want to be.

be next year. Because if you can't really make a lot of significant changes to this roster, and for the most part, you're bringing the offense back. Is it worth trying to tear it down? Or do you sit there and say, we have an offensive line that's young. Hennessy can step in for Mack. I think that is a clear succession plan to why they drafted him in the first round. You have an offensive line full of younger guys. Jake Matthews has already gotten paid. You have Calvin Ridley. You have Julio Jones. You can't really move on from him next year. It doesn't make any sense financially. Matt Ryan's the same way.

Do you say, let's try to jumpstart this offense rather than going for a full-scale rebuild and see what we can get out of it in 2021. I think in my mind, that makes more sense because they have, this team, I believe, is like 23rd in offensive DVOA right now, which makes no sense considering the resources they've spent in the talent that they have. I know that Julio has been dinged up a little bit, all that stuff, which is its own consideration. but if this team is going to come back as this version of the roster next year,

which likely will, considering all of the financial aspects to it, I think you just try to say, how good can we make this offense in 2021? And then the question becomes, who is the guy you hire to make that happen? So if you're looking at the list of head coaching candidates, ideally who would you like to see in Atlanta? You know, I think Airbnb is number one,

but I don't know if that's going to happen. And it just kind of seems like for whatever reason, whether it's, you know, stuff in his past or maybe this, it's harder for black guys to get head coaching jobs. I wouldn't like, I wouldn't like sell my soul for having that happen as a fan Atlanta. But, you know, one name that's like really got me intrigued is Arthur Smith of the Titans, the offense coordinator there. I mean, when you look at even just last week versus Colts and over the past two years how he's orchestrated this offense, it's like every. everything you want to see in terms of like when they call play action, like how their run game is tied to the past game. And obviously having guys like Derek Henry and AJ Brown and Johnny Smith helps that. But the way it's orchestrated, like they're maximizing every bit of

talent that they have on that often. So I think he's a really intriguing hire in terms of a guy who has shown that he can step in with veteran players and figure out how to maximize like every drop of grass that they're able to contribute on Sunday. So he's a guy that I'm interested in. And I'm with you totally in terms of we you got to figure out way to just jump some sort of this offense because at first you know I thought the falcons might be bad enough where they could just end up with the top three pick and uh not so lucky my friend I know I know and maybe maybe it'll end up with the guy like Justin Fields or or Zach Wilson the quarterback from DUIU but you know in the usual Falcons fashion they've won just enough games to to have you intrigued for

next year but you got to figure out a way to get this offense back in motion like you're going to have Matthews, Hennessy, Lindstrom, McGarry, which is like a pretty solid core of guys to have an offensive line. And if you can just, I don't even know, like, what the move would be. Maybe you like draft running back somewhere, but like offense theoretically should not be as bad as it currently is. And I think a lot of that has to do with, you know, one Julio being dinged up, like you said, and Dirk Carter has just, it's like often to not practice. Like what's happening? He's got me dreaming back to the Sark days, like where, you know, they weren't. God. You think you ever see it?

that. I know, but they weren't scoring a whole lot of points, but they were like at least moving the ball consistently giving themselves chances to score points. So it's tough. But I think that like a full scale rebuild for next season is kind of abd the question just with how much money they have tied into the offense. Like you kind of just got to wait until 2020 to really start thinking about a rebuild in Atlanta. I'll be curious to see what happens because I think one of the only avenues for them to really make this work would be to possibly borrow from Matt Ryan's contract again, which is not something you want to do if you don't envision him being on the roster in a couple years. But if you do and you can maybe place around with that a little bit,

then it changes your thinking because then you're thinking, all right, if he's still going to be on the roster two years from now, how do we build? The Arthur Smith thing is intriguing to me, not only because of the success he's had in Tennessee, but think about how good Matt Ryan looked in a system adjacent to that when he won the MVP in 2016. It's not a huge jump for him to run that sort of system because the bones of it are similar to what he did under Kyle Shanahan.

So I think it makes sense on a bunch of different levels. And then looking at it now, Ryan is a $41 million cap hit next year, which it's amazing. It's truly incredible. And the way that happens is they've been borrowing from the contract consistently to push his number down and just get every ounce they can out of this roster. So it's really difficult to move on from him in a way. It's not with somebody like Matthew Stafford. So I think that's why the thinking has to be a little bit different for Oana. And I also just think that the talent is in place.

With the Lions who will get to, they have so many things they have to address. Every receiver on that team is a free agent. The Falcons are bringing back their offense. So I think that's the biggest thing. I'll ask you this because I, it always makes me, two questions about the head coach. Does what's happening with Doug Peterson and Matt Nagy right now make you a little bit more concerned about Eric Bionami's viability as a head coach down the road? A little bit because it's falling apart.

Matt Nagy, it kind of never really got off the ground. Like, outside of that first season, like, the offense has just been pitiful the last two years. And with Peterson, I mean, you think that, I thought that Peterson was like this brilliant guy who just had an often figure out and he was going to be like a step ahead of defense all the time. But this year has shown, I mean, they're awful on offense. And it's not just when. Like when you go back and you watch, at least the last All-22 I watched was that Browns game a couple weeks ago,

you got receivers running to the same spots. You got offensive linemen not going where they're going. It's a total mess. It's a total mess on every level of the offense you could possibly think of. So, you know, that gives me a little bit of pause, but, hey, maybe third times a charm. Maybe this is the guy that gets to going for them. But it does, it does give me a little bit of pause and not be lying if you said, didn't. Because it's just one of those things that you like, I think that picking guys from

places that have been successful makes sense. That's what you've seen them be, they know how it's supposed to work. You bring them in, they try to replicate it. That part makes sense to me. But when Andy is so much the brains behind the whole thing and those guys are just kind of along for the ride, I think the calling

play stuff can be overrated because Andy Reid didn't call plays until he did. So it's not always a necessity before you get those jobs. But I do think the fact that Andy is at the center of that, We're seeing what happens when those guys have to run their own ship. And in Peterson's case, we're seeing what happens when the brain trust that really allowed that team to function in 2017 with Frank Reich is no longer there.

He's left to his own devices. He's trying to figure out the different voices in that room. So without perfect conditions, those guys have struggled. And I just hope the enemy doesn't suffer the same fate. Pivoting a tiny bit on the head coach thing. Are you in the, if Rahim keeps this going camp, he deserves a real look? because interim coaches scare me. And it rarely works out.

But they've been playing so well on defense under him. And again, with just a different sort of energy, I'm wondering if you keep him bring in an offensive coordinator you feel really good about, does that change things? Because that's one of the things that with an older quarterback like Matt Ryan is, that's one of the only times where I'd be a little bit more open to the defensive-minded head coach thing. because you're not tying a potential head coach

to your 22-year-old quarterback that you need for 10 years. Yeah, the Rahim Morse thing is interesting. I mean, because just off the jump, I would say, no, no, no, let's just clean house and start over because I just think this team still has some of that Super Bowl stink on it. Of course, a fresh start would just be nice for everyone.

But it's hard to ignore what Rahim has done. I mean, I was just looking at it before I got on. But since week six on defense on first and second down, their fourth in the EPA in the entire league. And before, when Dan Quinn was there, they were like 29th. So that's a big jump.

And I think if you could get, like Rahim has obviously played himself into being a candidate for next year. I mean, they're four and two. They got a chance to maybe sneak into the playoffs with the sedency. Like, I haven't looked too much at how the NFC is stacking out,

but that's not an impossibility for this team. I mean, you'd have to go on a run, like beat the chief, so it's not likely, but it's possible. Like, if Rahim can actually,

you know, get this team back in the playoff contention this season. I mean, he should be a candidate for the job. But for me, just as like a fan, like I would need a commitment that you're going to do something different on the offensive staff, like, because clearly what they're doing is not working. And if he's going to commit to, you know, I want to bring Dirk Cotter back, then no. Like that's not on the table at all. Like you need, you can have Rahim be the face of this, but everything else needs to be a hard reset if you're going to bring him back.

Because what's going on now on offense is just so bad. And they're underperforming so bad based on what talent that we know they have. It's just got to be something different. So Rahim deserves to be a candidate, but there's got to be some stipulations. Like you got to reset this offense if you're going to come and be the head coach. Let me present this to you. Rahim stays. They hire Kevin O'Connell as the offensive coordinator, who's the offensive coordinator for the Rams right now.

I was in Washington before that. I mean, look, I think that they have the offense to, or they have the talent to kind of run that kind of system. When you look at how, especially like how the right side of the line likes to play with Benjamin McGarry, like, you can absolutely run what system the Rams are running. And even if Julio Jones is not the Julio Jones is getting 1,400 yards a year every year, he's still like one of the best receivers in the NFL and he got really on the other side. Like, just someone who understands how football is supposed to be played in 2020. Like that's that's really all I want because I think that what Sark showed us is that even if the offense isn't perfect, like this team has enough talent where they can kind of be on they can kind of run themselves as long as you have someone just competent pulling the string. Exactly. So I don't right now.

So, you know, O'Connell will be a nice fit, I think. And I'll be curious. I'll be curious to what they do because I think that committing to that plan when you can move on from Ryan and Huio in 2022 can be dangerous. because then if you're starting over it and you've kind of gone halfway in this other direction, that's where you can get stuck in no man's land. So I think that both options should be on the table. I'll be fascinated to see whoever ends up taking that job,

which direction they end up choosing. So let's get to a team that you know probably too well at this point, and that is the New York Jets. So it's a very different conversation, right? Where the Falcons are tied into this version of themselves to a certain extent because of the contracts they've handed out because they were all in. The Jets are on the exact opposite.

side of that. Even the contracts the Jets have handed out, you can get out of after this year. C.J. Mosley and James and Crowder are really the only veteran deals on that team that they're committed to for most likely in 2021. Outside of that, you can completely restart your offensive line if you want to, even after all the deals they handed out, and everything else is on the table. So at this point, I guess the biggest question, when you're looking at the board and you think about who you'd want to pair with Trevor Lawrence as the head coach and the pool of candidates, what would be your ideal fit? I mean,

it's got to be someone that's young and running offense. Like, I think such an intriguing option would be like Joe Brady. If you would, if you just want to take like a home run swing and try to pair someone who's like, as forward thinking like an offense of mind as we've seen. I mean, the guy,

obviously LSU had a ton of talent on offense, but that often, that scheme doesn't exist without him. you know, pulling the cords and trying to figure out how to get guys open. We've seen. It clearly works. I mean,

it's clearly working right now. It's beautiful. Right. It's great. And in Carolina, you see success he's having. And I think you can just get, you know,

someone who's recently been on the college level and had success. And someone who's had success in the first year in the NFL, like Joe Brady would be a high-risk thing because he's never done it before. Like, he's never been a head coach of a program of that caliber. or like an NFL team or even like a big time college team. But you just see the way he calls office and he gets it. I think that pairing him with Trevor Lawrence would just be a really intriguing pair,

just like two guys that kind of grow together and get over their lumps together and guys who understand like how football is supposed to be played in this year. Because, you know, like Trevor Lawrence is going to be the pick. Assuming that the Jets go 0 and 16 because I don't, I don't know how they're going to win a game this year. That that team is so bad. But, you know, you paired Trevor Lawrence with Joe Brady. Like that is, it's a risky play because Joe Brady has never been given the keys like this. But I just think it makes a lot of sense if you're looking for like that next

offense of mine that could potentially unlock this Jets offense, which is, you know, just floundering right now. It's so bad. I don't know much about Lawrence. Is he somebody like skill set wise? Does it make sense to put him in an offense? It's like really quick game base where they're getting the ball out and things like that. And it's not as vertical.

Is that something that would fit what he does? he can do that like he to me Lawrence can do whatever you want him to do play the quick game he can play the long ball game yeah it's more so just like just throw put him in there give him a coach that gets guys open it doesn't really matter where they are that makes sense to me

right right and you know the Jets like on offense like they have they have a core like that could be okay like immediately where you have Mackay Beckton who shoot I mean maybe next year he'll be the best left tackle in the league with the way that he's playing recently he's on his way right you got Denzel Mims who has shown out and shown that he's able to get open, even with Sam

Darnell and Joe Flacco throwing in balls. I mean, it's got a chance to not be bad for very long. If they can, like, if they can get Lawrence in with the guy who's a capable of play caller, like they can immediately get this thing back and look like a competent football team. The guy that intrigues me on the coaching side is Davele. Yeah, that's another one, too. He's made chicken salad at a chicken shit at a bunch of different places. And I think malleability. That's what I like to see. I like seeing a guy that can succeed with whatever he's given or do interesting things and kind of be flexible and nimble. And I think he's been able to do that and he's shown that. And this year is a great example. I just love the way his

mind works offensively. Also, the Brady thing, as exciting as it is, the lack of experience is real. And I think for a team that is so in need of a real fixture at the center of it, after the gays debacle and just what they've been. Having somebody who work for Belichick, who work for Sabin, who's seen some of these things as long as Brian Daibald has, I think that, I don't know, just feels sturdier to me. Yeah. That makes sense than the Brady thing.

Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. I think what you said about the offense is 100% correct in terms of the personnel. You have, because, again, you can remake this however you want. They have $55 million in space now. You make a couple cuts. You have your extra first round pick. and an extra third round pick from the Seahawks. The resources are endless.

So I think the biggest question for them is, what do you do with the resources? Do you go out and make a couple more cheap signings on the offensive line to see what you can figure out there? John Feliciano is a free agent, cheap guys like that. Do you say, let's break the bank and go get a Joe Thune in free agency and have him sit next to Bechtin,

and that's the left side of our line for the next five years? Money-wise, they might be able to go out and chase one of these receivers. because Ghaladee, Robinson, Will Fuller, all those guys are free agents. There are teams up against the cap

that aren't usually because of it going down. The tag is not something where you can say, we're going to tag somebody. The free agent, the tag for receivers for next year, I believe is going to be

11% of the salary cap. That's what quarterbacks make. You can't do that. So is Kenny Goladay or Alan Robinson going to be available when they weren't? If you put Kenny Goladay, Jameson,

Crowder, Denzel Mims, Mackay Beckton, and with Trevor Lawrence and Brian Dable on the offense, you're cooking there. That is not a bad start, and it's not completely out of the question. So I think that's really interesting. The one question I wanted to ask you about defensive personnel for them is Marcus May

someone you think that they're going to want to resign. I know he's had a really good season, but just in terms of locker room going forward, is he like the type of guy that they would want to build with? Yeah, I think they're going to want to resign him. I mean, just because there's there's no he's he's like the only guy that you really want to count on right now in their secondary and i think that if you get rid of him like because the way i look at the jets it's like

if you can get lawrence and a couple of the pieces in there i don't see why they can't be competitive in the afc east next season but i think if you lose may like that might be a lot to overcome on defense because you're also going to lose brian pool of free agency too and the corners are really questionable so i think if you can just get a fixture and keep marcus May in there. I mean, guys in the locker room seem to like him a lot. He's kind of, you know, taking over the defensive leader role since Mal was traded. I think that, like, just keeping him around is probably a good idea. And I don't know if you're going to have to bring the big from him just because he's like a safety. But I think May is someone you want to keep around.

And the thing that's intriguing to me is like you look at how even Brashad Perryman, like going back to offense, you look at how Prashat Perryman has played even with Joe Flacko a couple we used to go against a Patriots. Like, imagine that was Wolf Fuller. That's exactly right. And now you got the bread to go get him because you're going to have, you know, boatloads of capspace next year. Like this.

When no one else does, that's going to be the key to this. And you can pick off veterans. The Jets are essentially, the Jets and the Bengals could be if they wanted to spend any money. But the Jets and the Colts next year, depending on what the Colts do, a quarterback, they're going to be that guy at the end of the fantasy draft that has like $50 left and can just pay $2 more for every single guy. that you want. That's where they sit because of how many veterans are going to get cut. It's a fascinating position to be in. And I just think that they really can turn this around in a

quick way if Douglas makes the right decisions. Yeah. And the interesting part to me is like, what do you do on the defensive line too? Because you have Quinn and Williams who like every week, that dude just seems to get better and better and better. And, you know, he's looking like an absolute star, but they meet some pieces around him. I mean, I don't think they've had a 10-sack ed rushers still since like Calvin. John Abraham. Oh, yeah. That's right. That's right. Calvin Pace, I think, had 10 sacks in one season. But I still say that it's the curse of John Abraham. Letting him go, he put a hex on the entire franchise that you will never get another

pass rusher because you let me walk out the door. Yeah. And I know that there are Jets fans who are clamoring for Yonick and Gokwe this past off season. And hey, he's about to be a free agent again. Maybe you can get him or Matt Jude on for Baltimore. And another like a low, maybe lower radar guy that's kind of intriguing is Sheldon Rankin's from the New Orleans where he's had some injuries and he might end up just walking in free agency this year. But you pair him with Quinn and Williams. Like you got a potential for like a really good

pass rush duo on the inside. That is much more intriguing to me than spending for Yonik and Gakweer and Matthew Judon. I'll tell you that right now. Those are the types of defensive signings I want to make. Not the first two that you mentioned. All right. Let's get to a team that they definitely don't have a quick turnaround. And that is the Houston Texans. So this is, I think, a pretty, fascinating conversation and consideration because a lot of people are looking at Houston and saying they don't have any picks, they have all these bad contracts. And I'm sitting there thinking, the reason you have picks is to find a quarterback. That's what you do. All that matters at the center of this, especially over the next two years. By 2022, then get all this shit off the books,

all of it. It doesn't matter. At the center of it, you have a 25-year-old guy who is ascended to the next level. And that's why I think. think this job, in my opinion, should be as attractive of a head coaching job as any of the ones out there. So I don't want to steal him from you. But people I've talked to seem to think that Bienomi would be the best fit with Watson. When you think about it, if he doesn't go to Atlanta, is that where you'd want him to end up? Yeah, because they need someone to be competent right away. And I think, like the idea of Bionemi, even with the concerns we talked about, like, the idea of him is still a high floor coach and good God,

do they need a high floor guy? I was looking at like their offseason stuff and it's like, how is this possible? It's so bad. It's so bad. They're over the cap for next year already. They have one of the worst rosters in the NFL. They're will for us played to be a free agent.

They already cut Kenny Stills. What is what is going on here? I think what was funny is as I was looking at it, One of the biggest circles you, one of the biggest names you circle as a potential cap casualty is David Johnson. Like that's, oh, it's over. Right. You're like, you just trade, you just trade DeAndre Hopkins for him.

So I think the biggest, the ones that are more interesting to me, I think Johnson's gone. Right. That's a no brainer. I mean, he, I think he has a $9 million cap it. You save seven by letting him go. That's not even a question. The one that's, the couple that are more embarrassing to me, letting Gary and Conley walk in free agency, which they're most likely going to after trading a,

third round pick for him is malpractice. And then the other ones, I think that the question, I'm fascinating about what's going to happen when Brandon Cooks. You trade a second round pick for him. He has a $12 million cap hit with none guaranteed left on his deal and you're $17 million over the count. Is he somebody that you just put it back into Brandon Cook's tradeorama and just try to get a third round pick for him to get him off the books?

I don't know what's going to happen there, but it seems like it's not a given that he'll be there next year at that number when they need to save money. McKinney is another potential casualty. The one that is definitely going to be the thing to watch, though, is what happens with JJ Y. Right, right. And they got to get some picks, man. Like, they have to get some picks or else this offseason is going to be absolute chaos for them. Because they only have, God bless Laramie Tonsler for getting that deal, you know, $22 million a year as left tackle.

But, you know, this is what happens. Like when you see people in analytics say, it's okay to trade for someone. It's okay to pay for someone. It's not okay to do both. And that's where you see the Texans are where they have no money. They have no picks until the third round. They barely have any picks after that. I mean, this is just an absolute mess.

And, you know, one of the easy ways to get picks is that you want to trade JJ Wap? Because if I'm correct, I don't think he has any dead cap attached to his number for next year. None. 17 and a half in 2021, 15 and a half in 2022. You'd assume that whatever team trades for him will toss him some guaranteed money off the top. But for the lowest part, I think you can probably afford it. If you can get a second round pick for what, he matters more to a contender immediately than he's going to matter to you right now. I think that's what you have to understand. It's going to be

ugly in Houston in 2021. What does it look like in 2022? And that's the biggest question. That's when you have your full arsenal picks back. You have tonsill at left tackle. You have Watson. And after that, you pretty much have a blank slate. Nick Martin's going to be on the team because the contract they gave him, Zach Cunningham just got extended. But that's the year where you can move on from Randall Cobb, where you can move on from Whitney Merciless, and you can say, all right, this is where we start. And it's not an easy thing to slog through next season the way they're going to have to, but I think that's the mindset that you have to bring into it.

The Cobb and Merciless contracts are disgusting. I mean, it's, you look at it and it's one of those things where, like the Jets, for example, the Jets gave out some contracts issue. I wouldn't give out the fan contract again, but there's no guarantees after the first year. Where was Randall Cobb getting all this interest where you had to guarantee him $10 million into the third season of this contract? It's just, it's really brutal. And that's the problem is they let O'Brien make so many decisions on the way out. And it really mired this team in a pretty significant rut for the next two years no matter what happens.

And the really hard thing to rationalize here is that a lot of these guys won't even be on the roster. that they give a real things for. It's bad, but I just think that if you're taking over a job, the number one thing as a GM and a coach that you have to worry about is who's my quarterback going to be, who is my quarterback going to be. Look at who rises and who falls. And the answer is always teams with quarterbacks. And if you have the guy, it is the number one box you have to check.

And I think the Jets, you could probably make an argument that Lawrence makes it as attractive as it would be to come to Houston with Watson. But the way that Watson has played this year, he's the best he's ever been. Even if it's Deshawn Watson last year, I'm still taking the job, but I don't feel as good about it. The way he's played now,

the way he plays in the quick game now is just fucking crazy. Like he is just on a level that I did not even expect him to get to this year. And I think that's something you really have to consider. Yeah, I'll just say about Watson. We always talked about his play out of structure, but the play in structure this year has just been

absolutely and the fact the fact that Houston is this bad with quarterback play at this level it's embarrassing it's absolutely embarrassing hopefully hard to do honestly it's hard to do oh goodness legit elite quarterback playing and you have no chance to make in the playoffs it's amazing let's do the Lions looking at the Lions cap situation all I could think is I was looking at it and just like the

structure of that roster is the madman gift where it's just not great Bob. The Lions' Capp situation is not great, Bob. If the cap settles at $176 million, they're right there. And there aren't many guys that they can cut. Because Troufant,

Collins, and Coleman have real money left on their deals next year. We need to make a rule as ownership group. If you think you might fire your GM or your coach within the next 12 calendar months, do not let them spend all of the money they want in free agency.

See? Like, it's just, it's completely incongruous. So if you're sitting here in your Detroit, you have very little cap space, you have a defense that is completely broken on a personnel level. All of your receivers, all of them, except Quentin Cephas, are hitting free agency next year. And you probably don't have money to sign one of them, let alone multiple of them. What is the first thing that you do? Is the answer trade Matt Stafford? I think that's probably where you have to start. And I imagine that, even at this point, it's career like,

he'll have suitors for people who want to trade from like this is in man ryan where he's you know you've got a couple years left on this thing like safford could very well play for a good a good while longer i think that's where you have to start just to free some money up and maybe hit the reset bottom this thing but it's ugly like like you said i just don't understand it's like with these team these bad teams like the texans and the lines like how are you getting to a spot and i know that the the cap space coming down has a big a big influence on this but how are get into a spot where you are not a competitive team and you still have no money to get better in the offseason. Like, it's just, it's just mind-blowing to me that you can be, I guess, this

irresponsible in how you're building this roster. Like you said, if you're an ownership group and obviously, if you're going to fire Matt Patricia during the season, you were thinking about it at some point earlier this year. Why are you letting them give out these contracts that are going to weigh you down after they're gone? It's just, it's just malpractice. And, you know, I, I guess, You know what it is? It's the coach and the GM being in their ear, being like, we need these two more guys. That's it. The picture will come together if we just have these couple more things.

And it is just the most short-sighted, misguided, misguided, just wrong thinking. It's a lie. It is a save-my-ass sort of approach to this stuff. And it just is the exact wrong approach to take if you think that you could move on from these guys in any way in short order. So the Stafford thing, we put out a thing today. like, would you rather trade a third round pick for Sam Donald or a first round pick for Matthew Stafford.

And people are like, Matthew Stafford's going to get a first round pick? Yeah. Yeah, he absolutely is. It's 20 million for each of the next two years. And again, it might be similar to the Watt situation. Toss him some money, you know, ease his piece, give him some peace of mind. But it's still probably going to be fairly affordable in a league where

quarterbacks are 35 million. A 32-year-old Matt Stafford for $20 million is absolutely worth a first round pick. There are going to be teams lining up to do that. Yeah, I mean, I think San Francisco might be a team that could be interested in something like that. They can play around with the money. I mean, that, that's such a good deal based on what, like, his, because we've seen like peak Matthew Stafford before he got hurt last year. I mean, he was playing like one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Do you think that's the problem, though?

Do you think that because I think that's it. I was talking to somebody the other day, I think of an evaluator, and we were talking about Stafford. And there's just this allure to him. that I think can be dangerous because you're going to sit there and you're going to watch him throw in pregame and you're like, this guy is amazing. And you're going to talk yourself into, we can be the team that takes him to the next level. He is one of those eternal potential guys, even though he's 32 years old. And I think that that can inspire some misguided decision making every once in a while. Yeah. It's like with Stafford, like when you start, when I start like,

Like if I were to sit down to write a scouting report about Stafford, like, when I write down like negatives, I'm like, like, what's really, it's like, he's so tantalized. It's like, what, what, these negatives are really going to outweigh me from, like, wanting to make a play for him. Like, if I, if I feel like I'm a quarterback away, if I feel like I'm a quarterback away, and I think that I can just pull the trigger on this guy, a cost controlled, and maybe pay a first-round pick, I would try to do that every time. Like, if I'm San Francisco, I'm trying to figure out how to get Matthew Stafford.

It's just, he's so tantalizing. And it's been that way since, like, he was a player at Georgia where you see the upside and you see the peak play and the games where it's all clicking for him. It's just wonderful. Like, he's so talented. But for some reason, he just hasn't been able to click. And I mean, a lot of that can be placed on the Detroit Lions just being an absolute dumpster fire of an organization.

But there's something that hasn't clicked from him being the, like, the potential to actualizing, like being a perennial like top 10 quarterback every single year. And I think that the best thing for him and maybe the lines too was just to break this up and start over. I think so too. Both parties just get a fresh start because I would hate to see, you know, what happened to Stafford or what happened to Cam Newton happened to Stafford, like where you have like this immense physical talent that never really gets to support that he needs.

And I think that Stafford is at this crossroads where there's a chance that he can get that support if Detroit is willing to depart from him this offseason. And so they're sitting there with a ninth pick right now. They're four and seven. And if Washington ends up winning that division, that's an even bigger boon for them because Washington probably isn't going to draft a quarter. Washington needs to draft a quarterback, but the Giants may not. So the Lions absolutely could be sitting there with the eighth overall pick with only

two teams or three teams ahead of them that need a quarterback. If they like the back end of that Zach Wilson, Tray Lance group or whoever it ends up being, that's on the table for them. I think the quarterback question complicates the coaching question. Because if they were to keep Stafford, I like that offensive line. And I think that's where they've invested a lot. You have Decker, Jackson, Ragnow, whoever's playing right guard right now that I can't remember, and Vitae. And with Stafford, I think Arthur Smith and that style works with that group and you figure out the receivers.

You take Stafford out of that equation, I think it's much more complicated as to who the coach there should be. So it's hard to know who would fit their roster and vision when you don't know what that roster and vision are going to look like. Right, right. And, you know, it just, it sucks. It's like we never got to see like the best version of Stafford for the whole season because when he was, he was balling last year and then he gets hurt. And this year having been able to figure out like how to get these pieces working. And, you know, like, why would Stafford want to come back to a spot where Galladay and Jones like is going to cost an arm and leg to try to figure out how to get them back onto the roster somehow or, or, tried to get Galdade back onto the roster.

Like, it's going to be, it's going to be tough. So I think, you know, Detroit, you just got to hit the nuke button and blow it all up and and start over. The problem is my mind, always when I'm thinking about how to solve problems in the NFL, my mind is just put them in the shit in handoffence. No matter what, it's like, where would Matthew Stafford had succeed? I'll just put him with Arthur Smith. It'll be fun.

Like, that's all you need to do. And it's just my answer to everything. I feel like I need a new bit at this point. Charles McDonald's, thank you very much, my friend for doing this. sincerely appreciate the time. Congrats on the new gig. You are going to do fantastic. You and Stephen Ruiz being together is a terrible idea,

but I do think some decent work is going to come out of it. So appreciate the time, my friend, and good luck. Thanks for having me. I am pleased to be joined now by the highest paid offensive alignment in the history of the NFL, Mr. David Bakhtiari. David, how are you doing it? How does that sound? It's got a good ring to it.

I'm not going to use any of the actual numbers because I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable or awkward. I'm sure. Has it been really weird talking in public about your money to other people recently? I'm sure that's strange. Yeah, I would say the strangest part is like people congratulating me on like, it's like good job on getting that deal done.

And just talking about like my salary. I'm like, imagine someone to come up to you. And this is literally like I'd be walking down the streets. Like someone come up to you and just like, hey, good job on getting that raise from such and such and talking about the exact numbers. I'm like, what? Thanks.

guess. I'm not going to talk about the exact numbers because that's weird, but I am going to ask you, is there anything that you have your eye on? And this is like the worst time ever to get paid because you can't go out and do anything or spend it on anything. But do you have like a, oh, there you go, just because you're saving. Do you have anything like that you have your eye on? You're going to like do anything to your place or anything that's been a long term plan that now you can put into motion? Oh, I mean, really the only thing in my mind is I've always wanted to build a home. And I think now I'm at a point where I have the capital to do that. Other than that, I mean, I don't really, I don't really want much.

Save the money for investments and then just sit on my money other than that. I had a boy. You're doing it the right way. So I wanted to bring this up because the day that I think you had your presser afterward, I was reminded that, you know, the first time we ever talked. And it was in the middle of the 2014 season, I want to say. So it was your second year. And we talked about, you told me the story about the time you,

essentially got the job as the Packers left tackle. And you did not expect it coming in. They were moving Balaga and sitting to the left side. That was the plan that year. And then Brian got hurt in training camp. And so you, as a rookie, get thrust into this job. So just for the people who don't know that story, walk me through what that week was like for you. When you first learned that you were going to be the left tackle of the Packers on the blind side of Aaron Rogers as a rookie fourth round pick in the NFL.

So it all stem from family night. It's our scrimmage in the stadium. I got to give Brian credit. I mean, the guy tours ACL and finished out practice and had no idea. So there were some rumblings in the stadium the next day, a couple of rumors that, you know, it was true. And I was like, well, this is crazy. I wonder what they're going to do. And I remember going up to Clay and like, hey, like, I think Brian's out for the year.

What do you think they're going to do? And I had known Clay prior to being on the team. So I kind of went to him always for kind of, he was a little bit of veteran presence, a little bit of guidance for me. And I was hoping for a little bit of a confidence boost. And what he had said, he immediately shot me down.

He goes, look, man, they're never going to trust a rookie like you. They're probably going to keep you at the right side. They'll move Marshall over to left. But hey, congratulations. You made the team. I was like, thanks, Clay.

Just what I wanted to hear. So then I go into my meeting, our online meeting, and it's really quiet. very somber because, I mean, we already flipped the left and right side of the line going into the season. And our O line coach comes in and he just goes right up to the board without saying anything and just started writing numbers left to right, the first line, the second line, the third line. And my name was right next to Josh's.

And I was just like, frankly, I was like, holy shit, all right. I thought I was going to have a year to kind of get myself acclimated and hopefully I'd be starting at right tackle. then my first year and then maybe move because that's like my college mind like that's how innocent I was for the league I had no idea of how things went that's usually like in college like once they trust you they moved you to left

it's not like in the league it's when you're in a spot you stay in a spot so you should that's how people should be treated because you learn how to play that spot and that's how you get good at it so yeah exactly so when I got the job I was like

all right here we go I remember asking Josh if I could pull him a cell and just talk to him about some plays. And, you know, I was intimidating as is because he's the veteran of the room, very respected, highly regarded across the league. Also an intimidating guy. Not just the fact that he was really good. Also, when you don't know him, is really intimidating.

When you sit down across from that guy, super smart, has like an error about him that it's definitely overwhelming for a young player. As someone who has sat across from him before and is not an NFL player, I trust me, I understand. Yeah, yeah. So he, and speaking of him, he likes to fool everyone. He's got like this southern Alabama accent. Sounds like he can barely count to 20.

But he's one of the more intelligent humans I've ever met. And his football IQ was off the charge. He's actually helped teach me just how to see football in a completely different way. Yeah, so anyway, so I sat down with him. Pretty much she schooled me in all the, our entire offensive our playbook made me look like an absolute idiot which is what I wanted

and at least kind of helped me so we get to it just kind of wait for us to get to kind of to get to know each other and then yeah and then the other famous thing that I remember telling you was I went over to Aaron and our first walk through after I was named the starter and we really didn't even talk at that time

like much at all and I remember him just kind of going up to me kind of giving me a little hug and just whisper in my ear, just don't get me killed. And that was it. I'm like, if it isn't kind of already like big enough, the fact that, you know, at that time, you know, in 2013, he's already considered a, you know, future Hall of Famer is telling you that. I was just like, well, I mean, I got two ways to go with this. I'm either going to be a guy or I'm going to be a guy. So I was like, all right, Let's, I mean, the choice was now,

Samara, I'm sure to just go all in and see what happens. And now here we are. High straight offense line. I'd say it's worked out okay. I'm very curious, if you, thinking about that person you were when we sat down at that point, your second year and Aaron won the MVP that year, you guys were great.

But what would you say is the biggest difference between the player you were that day and the player you are right now? Seasoned, I guess. I've seen so much. I've been through so many, different scenarios. I've thought there's so many different things. I know how to navigate. I'd say right now, I just worked so much more efficiently I did back then. My first few years,

I was working. I was only ascending and got really good because of how hard I worked and how much I tried. And then, you know, I learned from Josh. Like your brain can really take you to the next level. So when I mix the two, you can really work smarter, not harder. And I can, I remember watching Josh and how efficient he was where he really didn't even have to do that much because he already knew what the defense was going to do. So he only had to do a little bit to get the job done instead of just having to react all the time. And I think for me now compared to then, I mean, yeah, obviously I'm better, but I think just, I don't want to say no at all because that's egotistical.

But I just, I've been through all the experiences, I just know. so much on the field and what's going on that nothing really fazed me. You can kind of sniff out everything that goes on because I will say defenders kind of give a lot of away. There's very few teams and very few players that are really good at hiding stuff. Other than that, like, it's pretty easy to read them. It's pretty easy. And it's pretty easy to fool them too.

How would, and I don't think I've ever even asked you this before. What is your, like, game week process? Because I know that Joe Thomas was like an avid note taker, an avid note taker. savage sharder, where it was in every situation, these are his go-to moves on third and eight. Like, he had that in his back pocket. Do you go that granular with the way that you prepare for guys, or is it not quite that deep? Like, what do you do from Monday to Saturday against a specific opponent? Okay, so this, hopefully this comes out good or I really look like an idiot. So I was always been, I've always been a procrastinator. So I don't like watching film until

like 48 hours before. Interesting. That's kind of how I've always been with school. I just like to cram, have it just fresh in my mind. I have it all. And then I immediately just kind of like flush it out.

So like, and I also hate rewatching film. So I let the coaches throughout the whole week show me what they want to show me. And then once they're done with all their cutups, breakdowns, all that stuff,

when I see it throughout the week, when it comes to my own film, about 40 hours before the game, And that's where I really dive into, I mean, I crank out a lot of film at that point. I mean, we're talking their last six games. If I've played the guy before, I look at the last game or two that he had played me and see how he played each other. So, I mean, I procrastinate, but then I do knock out about, I would say, six to eight games of film. Which is a ton.

Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. And it's not just like just having it play and going. Like, I'm slowing it down. I'm watching everything from what was he thinking pre-snap, where was he looking, any little tell, switching of the feet, noticing the hands, weight distribution, where his toes are like me. I really kind of get really weirded out of how deep I kind of look into the guy.

And then I also watch, you know, when they're playing other teams like different formations, like, okay, is this guy, like, how is he playing it when this player does this? Okay, I would do something like this. So how is he reacting? And then I completely agree with Joe. I've always, that's kind of been something I've done as well where I know got to have it moments. Yeah. Like money, money downs.

I kind of like to say like, what's his go to? What's his bread and butter? What's he? Because that, that's his, this is my best, most effective move and this is what I'm going to do. So as long as I'm always prepared for that one, take away what his best at. Odds. I like to play odds in games. You know, you're going to have to beat me with a lesser, a move that you're not as comfortable with or as effective, which for you, for you, is a little.

lower, low win percentage. And I would say that's really where my film breaks out. And then another thing is, I also watch a ton of film on myself every week. Like, I think I watch practice film maybe three times a day. I'm, I'm, I'm, so I, in the beginning of the week, like, it's not that I'm not watching film. I'm just studying myself so much because any little thing I watch every little bit of technique, wage disreaching my stance, what am I showing? What did I like on this step? What did I not like on this step for the game plan that we're going to have during the week so I can marry it up to what we're going to do? That's where, I would say, before the 48 hours before the game, like, that's what I'm watching.

Where have you had to check yourself this year? Is there anything like bad habits you felt like you were following into during practice? Was there one or two things that really have jumped out? Early on was my conditioning. I wasn't as pleased. I wasn't running around as much. and then I would say the two other things was hand placement and pass and run and then my the weight in my kick set putting in on the interior balls my feet instead of kind of

of almost retreating in a past set at times where you kind of get caught when you're doing a vertical set you want to make sure you're continuously saying square but also setting out to him. So that's, I remember a couple things I was working on with that. How would you say, because I remember, you know, way back in the day, putting out weight was the big thing. Like, you weren't strong enough at the beginning of your career. It's something that you've said to me before. And I think a lot of guys tried to beat you with power back then. How would you say that guys have started to attack you now? How is it changed? I don't know, honestly. I mean, I think guys just try. They just, in my opinion, I think guys go

in the game, they do what they're good at. They see if that works. They see if they can, you know, there is some leakage, if it can be effective. And then if they aren't, you know, if nothing's really getting home or winning on their bread and butter, then I think they switch up to attitude, which is, okay, let me see where is, you know, if he wants to hit all game. Does he really want to be here? Yep. It makes total sense. Those are ones definitely the older you get. You have to make sure, like, hey, you got to especially against younger guys like first three years

like they don't know any better and I didn't know either I was ready to absolutely just I was like a banshee I was going to throw my body and everything so I think definitely taking that away let them know like hey I'm here to play like

I know I'm older but you ain't gonna get through this at that point I mean honestly I think they just kind of like okay I don't really know what to do I'm sure you can just feel guys getting frustrating or just getting frustrated over time because that's interesting. The fact that their plan is, this is my best plan. Let's see if it works, rather than them formulating a plan for what you were bad at, I'm sure there was a pivot point at some point

your career where guys were stopped trying to, guys stopped trying to attack your weaknesses and just said, I'm going to try to tap into my strengths. And that's probably an important moment for any offensive linemen because that just changes the plan. There are very few, like I'm not I'm not going to act like I'm going to, like, just I'm impenetrable. Like, there are a few guys that I will say, like, their game plan when they go in is effective. And, like, it's a bring your lunch bill to work type guys. And, like, we have to grind out through the whole game.

Like, he's winning plays. I'm winning plays. And it's just like, this is a, it's a good bad. Like, honestly, I enjoy the fun test. It kind of really tests like, okay, how is my in-game adjustments? My in-game, like, my mentally, how am I changing to accommodate to what he's doing well? I mean, it's not like the guys just go, I go up against a guy and he just shuts down. I mean, I've had that happen definitely.

And I think I was going to go on to the next point was the most flattering thing I've had is when I see defensive game plans where they just don't put their normally their best rusher. They're wasting somebody. Or yeah, or they don't come over to me. Like, I've had times where they just will put like, I remember the Bears and they told me this. This was a couple of years ago. It wasn't last night. but I remember they would move over like just a defensive tackle and then just be like, okay, just go bull rush them.

If you like, that's, you know, they think that's like my biggest weakness in the game, in my game. And if you win, great. If not, like it already was probably going to be a loss. It'll just put you over there and let's just go tee up some stuff in the interior into the right side, which to me is extremely flattering. The Detroit lines did that with a, they put like a nickel player over me and they created a jam front.

the entire game. So I literally was just blocking this guy that was maybe 225 pounds. Imagine being that guy. What a shitty job. I mean, that to me, but I was so flattered. I'm like,

wow, this is like, because you know, like, whoever you're going to put here, I'm pretty much going to neutralize. You might as well just, you're kind of just taking the L

and just putting whoever over there and then let's just create better win percentages across the board. The lunch pail guys, would you feel comfortable saying a couple names? Just guys that, like, you know you got to bring it that day, or it's going to be a long one. Guys I like, like, I remember when we played the Browns, Miles Garrett, he, like, I was like, if he, and he was just a rookie, then I'm like, just pure reaction and athleticism. Like, if he used to tease me up a little bit, this guy can be very successful.

Like, I had to work that game. And he, I could tell he was just reacting. Yeah, he's on a different plane now than he was back then. I mean, the stuff he's putting together now is really impressive. I've watched this game. I've kept an eye because, I mean, I actually really like how he plays, and I think he's a stud. Like, he's a stud. I really like both DeBosas.

Love their games. Love how, like, they go about their work. Everson Griffin was a guy, just because I saw him twice a year, and this dude, like, that was a guy who, like, I had to check myself. Like, if I was, like, you know, making sure to test me if I was ready to hit, because he literally would, try and break your will for the longest time. And I remember even like we would make eye contact. He pretty much kind of gave me the night like, okay, you ready for this? I'm like, yeah, I guess so.

That guy was an absolute bowling ball. Like that, that I would, I am very happy to say that I don't enjoy the battles that we had in the past because they were just, they were a lot. And I know they were for him and I know we have respect for one another, but man, like, We were going after them. Those 200, like 75, 280-pound dudes, that's just the biggest pain in the ass day at the office. Like, that just has to be that I'm not interested in this. I mean, not to mention, the guy runs like a 4-6.

He used to be a gunner. I mean, and his get-off, he actually has helped push me to have such a good get-off because his get-off on the snap count and the ball was elite. elite consistently. And I knew if I ever get behind the play with him, and especially in pass protection, which in our old offense, we did pretty much the whole game, I was set up for failure if I didn't make sure.

So I had to make sure no matter what I was the one B off the ball. It was the center and then me and then Aaron. So I'm curious to ask you, because I think this is, and you and I have talked about this before, but now that we haven't done it this year, though, Now that you're in year two of this offense, and it was a big adjustment, like you said, it used to be really a drop back central offense.

Now there's so much more play action. It's just a different structure. What do you think is the biggest difference both for you and you guys as a whole on that side of the ball coming into the second year under Matt compared to what it was like last year? So for me personally, it's just like I'm a lot more confident in my different sets. I had a specific sets that accommodated the old offense and what I needed to do. do in my stance, my weight distribution, all that, knowing all the adjustments. And in this offense, it was asking me to do a lot more different type of sets, a lot of different run cells, which frankly, I did not feel comfortable run selling

because our old run cell, no one ever believed us that we actually were going to run the ball. So they would just, they would pass rush react to the run. And I, like, me and my coach had a lot of pushback throughout the first year because I had just, it was just kind of like I had to get used to that again. me and Brian didn't feel comfortable with it. I think now I've been able to add, it pushed me in a good way because now I've added in a lot of different types of past sets and different footwork in the run game and also in the play action game

that have honestly helped me out a lot. And then for me, just be more versed in the offense. I know the more the checks, the adjustments, what's going on so I can focus on a lot other things, little things out there, so I can play even faster, play even smarter because I feel like I'm ahead of what's going on of what the defense presents you. And then as a team, I think the main thing is we just know the offense better. Like Aaron knows every little check in and out now. So I think he's so much more confident and fluid. So now he can focus more on defensive coverages, making certain checks, putting the ball where it needs to be, checking us

into good runs, you know, really kind of how we used to do in the old offense. Not that he wasn't versed his first year, but I think it's really now become more second nature. He's thinking even less and more just kind of instincts are taking over now. Do you, this is just for me from afar, and I've talked to him once this year, but just a lot of the things that I've seen interviews he's given, do you just feel like he's more at ease this year than he's been in a while? It just feels like he's like in a very content.

its place for a lack of a better explanation. Have you sensed that? I would say yes and no. I mean, I think it's hard on everyone at the end of the day with the current climate in the United States in the world. But if we're talking strictly just football, I think so. I think winning is a cure all, I think playing good football. And for him statistically, he's playing some of his best, if not the best football that he's played. And that feels great too. I don't think anyone would be mad about that. And he's having fun in the process.

So, I mean, in essence, yeah, I would definitely say, my eight years, is this one of his happier years compared to other ones? Yeah, I'd probably say, yeah. I'm sure it's one of your happier years, too. I'm looking at the numbers right now. His average release time this year is 2.5 seconds, which this is like paradise for you compared to what it was like five years ago, when it was like 2.9, him bouncing around back there.

It's all working. It's all working to your betterment here. Play action fakes to slow down defensive pass rushes and him getting rid of the ball quick. It's all like coming up, David recently. Again, with like this run cells and like when I have to do my job, like I, sometimes it just, it, it would freak me out. Even when I, at times I do get beat late in a play, I'm like, oh, the balls are yummy.

Okay. It just still freaks me out because, I mean, I've been in these plays. I think the longest pass play I'd ever done was about 14 seconds. Yeah, that has been removed from the offense. It's a little bit easier these days. It's a little bit more, a little bit set up, a little bit better set up for you guys to succeed. The last thing I wanted to ask you, and you talk about the checks and just the communication, it feels like you guys, maybe more than any other offense in the league,

has an advantage, have an advantage because of the stadiums being quiet. Have you noticed a difference just in the exchange of information between Corey and Aaron, between Corey and you guys? What sort of boost do you think you guys have gotten because you can communicate in the way you can't? I mean, I love it for the sole purpose of Aaron's, one of Aaron's best parts of his game is his brain. So the fact that he can use his brain, because sometimes you can't really get, like, you have to do nonverbal communication, build a sign language. And sometimes you just can't get it off or get a lot of guys don't pick it up. so you get just kind of like, okay, that's just you got to take that loss in that play. Whereas we negate a lot of those certain plays because we're able to communicate a lot more

efficiently and everyone, it's more coherent so everyone can hear it so we can get it done faster so we can actually have a better chance to have more successful plays when we want to check to what the defense is presenting us, as well as with Corey. I mean, Corey's, you know, Aaron and Corey are very intelligent people out there. So having Corey also have his ability to do certain checks, being able for me in the run game, being able to hear him has been awesome because a lot of the defensive fronts, especially when we load up the box with going in, you know, big heavy person out of a bunch of tight ends, it gets congested.

So it's hard to kind of see where we're going to go and being able to hear Corey on what he's IDing. And if he's, you know, pushing his ID or pulling his ID really helps out. from a tackle's perspective. And then above all for us is, I mean, no crowd noise means I don't have to look in for the quarterback. That means I can get to stare more out, the defense, see what they present us. Snap, I mean, I get off of the ball really well, home and away.

I mean, with crowd noise or without, but being able just to take in more information as a whole. So, yeah, it's definitely been beneficial for us, for sure. It just seems like there's so much communication and so much of a dialogue before the snap with you guys. I mean, I know that it's been like that at home. Remember last year during the Seahawks game in the playoffs, Corey and Aaron had like a conversation that the mic picked up where Corey was asking him like, what do you like here? What are you thinking?

And it's just so cool to watch those guys work. And I think it's been even more illuminated this year and people were able to notice it more. The last thing I wanted to ask you, if we talked about you, you know, you don't move from position to position. If you were to write talk, you probably would have stayed there. That's just how it works in the league. What Elton has done with everything he has done this year? I mean, can you just explain to people how hard that is and how. ridiculous it is that he's been able to bounce between all those spots and somehow

still play well at all of them? Yeah, I mean, I mean, the kids, the kids, a good player. I got to give him credit. He's, I know he's got a big head literally and figuratively. So I know he's going to do what I'm about to say about him. We won't let him listen to this. Yeah, he shouldn't. He's always said he's the, he doesn't have a position. He's an offense alignment, you know, trying to say like, oh, like, you know, like wide receivers or Titans like, no, I'm an athlete. type thing. He says that about the line. I got to give him credit.

Yeah, he can really go in any position and thrive. He does a very good job. I would like for him to eventually settle down to one spot and focus on that because in this league at the end of the day, I mean, versatility is nice, but they pay you for one job.

Sometimes they pay you very well. Yeah, so I want him to focus on that. But I mean, he's, the fact that you have a guy that can perform at a very high level and multiple positions across the line really is a good security blanket, knowing that things can happen in a game and you can get out of a game with Eldon and really not miss a beat. And that's a testament to his preparation, who he is as his character, and his football IQ.

Awesome. That's all I got for you. I'm glad that we can have this sort of cordial conversation with 12 hours removed from you guys beating the crap out of the bears. It makes me happy. It shows that I've evolved as a person, which I think is important. It's important to grow.

Always good to talk to you, bud. Really appreciate the time. And good luck the rest of the year. We'll shut soon. Yeah, appreciate it, buddy. Take care. Joining us now for a weekly team visit is Zach Jackson, who covers the Browns for the athletic.

Zach, thank you so much for doing this, man. I really appreciate it. Oh, glad to do it. I have watched this team a lot this year. I am fascinated by the way that they're built. I was a big Kevin Stefansky fan when he was in Minnesota. I love that offense. They've really used a ton of it.

I went back and watched the Jags game today. It really does look good when it works. But there are a lot of questions about this team. They're 8 and 3. I don't know how real that is or where they can go from here. Before we get any of that, though, I wanted to ask you, you've been around this team for a while. You know them very well.

What would you say the defining kind of characteristic of this? season and the early returns of the Stefansky era have been? Yeah, you know, I agree with your use of fascinating because I think it is on many levels. I think they've maximized their pieces. You know, what I think the most is that they've stuck to their strengths. You know, Miles Garrett has played in six wins and he's made a game-changing play in all six of them. Thanks to the play calling and the running backs and some guys running wide open, they've cashed in most of those turnovers, and that's a great winning formula.

Nick Chubb is averaging like almost 13 yards of carry in the fourth quarter. It's like there's some absurd numbers, but there's a simplicity to it to where, you know, the other team is the one making mistakes, and the Browns are just doing what they do. I mean, I go back to week two Thursday night. They're beating the Bengals. They're clearly the better team, but Burrow keeps bringing them back, and it's not over. And they go 75 yards and six plays all runs. And I know it was the Bengals and it was September.

It was hot. That defense was gassed. But I thought, like, you don't see that. Like, this is like an early season college game where the stronger team just won right here, you know, pulled away in the fourth quarter. And they've used Kareem Hunt so well. And we've seen just, you know, how good he is, but how much better Nick Chub is. And I think Stafansky's found kind of the perfect way to use both and maximize both. I think that the Chub thing is so real.

and the benefit he gives their offense and the boost he gives their offense. They're ninth in rushing DVOA now. They're just creeping up every single week. And I think that early in the season, Chubb was still figuring out some of the newer run concepts that they were using. Before, I mean, it didn't seem like the menu was that big. This year they're doing so many gap scheme runs, outside zone runs. There's so many things I think he has to work on.

His aiming points and all that stuff. It really does seem like he's more comfortable, even after missing a little bit of time than he even was before he got hurt. And I think that you've seen that in the last couple weeks. But on just a broader level, outside of the football stuff, the fact that this team is 8 and 3, and the fact that they needed a pallet cleanser so much after what the Hugh Jackson just tenure was like.

I know you're not in the locker room and you're not able to kind of get as much of a sense as you typically would. But can you feel just a collective exhale that's happened there a little bit with either guys that have been there for a little while or just people around the franchise and around the city? I do. I certainly feel it around the city

because, you know, like you said, now we're not in the locker room, but I think more than ever, we're engaged to the fan base and to the people that follow it the most, you know? Robert, I'll speak for myself when I say that every single Sunday, when I show up to the stadium, I feel like they might get beat,

but they're not going to melt down. Right. And last year, like starting in week one, they did. And this year, week one went off. but of course it did. They played the Ravens and they weren't ready to play. They had two weeks of practice.

So Stofansky from day one has had a certain kind of poise. And I don't want to say, oh, shucks, that's not it. But he's kind of been like, okay, this is what we got and this is what we're going to go. And like, we're going to be ready. You know, we're going to maximize what we got? He's a very realistic person. Yes. He really is.

Yeah. Yes. And I think he and Andrew Barry both. And I feel like I maybe knows to Fansky a little bit better. Maybe not knows, not the right word. But I think both of them would tell you away from the microphones, we're not quite there yet. But I think they've both been pretty darn good. That's obvious in the results.

And I think they both have a grasp on, okay, you know, we are building some real strengths. We have some good players. We have some great players. And if we can stick with this, which has been the biggest deal with the Browns, then maybe we can build something for the future. And I think, you know, here there's arguments about the quarterback. There's angst because they haven't really beaten anyone. There's this whole new field.

Right. But I think internally, there's kind of a quiet optimism and a poise like, all right, let's see where this goes. And in February and March, we'll get back to work. It seems like they're biding their time for that real off season and really getting him ingrained into the offense. Because I went back and I watched that game. We talked about it a little bit on our Sunday show, and Nate always uses the phrase training wheels and just how they have the training wheels on, and they really do. They used play action on 56% of their dropbacks last week.

It was the highest rate in the league. Two of the non-play action passes he had were designed sprint outs, so just clearly defined decision-making. And I think that's what they're doing. They're trying to minimize his impact on the offense overall. And the biggest question, like you alluded to, I think over the next year, is going to be, does that impact on the offense grow with time, or are we at a place where it's never going to be able to get there? And if it's the latter,

it feels like they might have to go in a different direction at quarterback in the long term. So when you're sitting there kind of observing it, you still think that they believe he can be the guy with a little bit more time within this offense when they get his full stable of weapons back, all of that. I don't know that they believe that. Okay, that's the question. Yeah. I think.

obviously that's plan A. That's the ideal world scenario, right? And obviously they not only put talent around him, but they've done a darn good job of making a lot of the pieces fit for where they are. I mean, this offensive line is good. It's only played seven games together, right? They're fantastic. I mean, it's an amazing group. Right. You know, they've only had seven full games. They've only had Chubb for seven full games. You know, they only had Odell for seven games to start the year. So, yeah, I mean, they're not married to anyone except Miles Garrett quite yet, right? Obviously, I think they will get married to

Nick, Nick Chubb and possibly Wyatt Teller. But I really can't say yet. I mean, in a way, you could almost wipe it clean and say, okay, well, let's watch him in the next five games. Let's see. I mean, obviously, they're going to give up some points. They're going to be down. They're going to have to throw to win in some of these games, you know, four real challenges ahead. but you know I think he's taking the ball out of the quarterback's hands a lot of times I like your water wings reference I don't think he's had an issue like the weather delay the Houston game I mean Kevin Stefansky joked about getting pelted in the face with hail coming out of there but other than that I don't think he hated it I think he likes let's just run it

let's play action get it out quick and in the fourth quarter if we give it to chub then we'll go home happy and that's exactly what happened I'll be fat I mean I'm so interested in what they end up doing 2021 is the last year of his deal. If they pick up his fifth year option, what the thought process is behind that, because it really does seem like the rest of this offense is just set. I mean, not even the big names, obviously, but just the smaller undercurrents of it. Jarvis Landry is playing the best football of his career. He looks awesome.

Like on a weekly basis, he's making plays. And I just think he fits so well with what they try to do. I mean, a couple of the staples in that stuff, Kubi-X-Shanahan playbook. He looks so good running. Harrison Bryant has jumped out to me in a couple different plays. He fits this well. The touchdown he scored last week, which is like a beautiful little concept.

So that's my thing is that if this was an offense with a different timetable and with different expectations and with a different amount of talent overall, I think you can be a little bit more patient and lenient in your valuation of Baker Mayfield. But because everything else is already set up to succeed, I think the urgency just becomes a little bit different than it would for another franchise. Yeah, there hasn't been that here, right? I mean, this is the first winning season since 2007. But do you think part of that is going to make them want to stick with it?

Because that's succeeding, do you think that part of them is going to not want to rock the boat? Because I could see it either way. You know, it's hard to say because they're not going to answer that question. Of course. It's hard to say because, look, you know, in Tennessee this week, they're probably going to have to score 31 or 34 to win. Right. Then they play Baltimore in a potential all chips on the table. a loser goes home type of game, right?

You know, it's the Baker thing where he was so good the first year and just put everyone on turbo and it was like, oh my gosh, the savior, especially the circumstances, right? The Thursday night game coming off the bench, the next game, he puts up gaudy numbers. They somehow lose. They change coaches at midseason and he gets hot. And all of a sudden, the Browns who were 0 and 16 and 444 are like a game and a half out of the playoffs. he's throwing 50-yard bombs to Jarvis.

Everything went on turbo speed, and that was only two years ago. So I kind of frame it like Baker got an A-plus for his rookie year. It was more like a B-plus A-minus, but it was great. And then last year, it was awful. And maybe it wasn't a D-minus or an F because of the coaching and the whole mess, and they just weren't ready for it, but it was bad. And then this year, he's been right in the middle and hasn't been asked to do too much. And so maybe he's right in the middle.

No, I know that doesn't answer your question about what Stafansky and Barry you're thinking, and it probably doesn't answer it for Staphansky and Barry. So as we sit here on December 1st or whatever the heck day it is, I think the jury's out. I think it's very hard to go find another guy. I think it's very hard to go 11 and 5 and get rid of your quarterback. But do I think for one second that he's good enough to get you to that next level and keep you there in 2021 and beyond? I haven't seen it in 24 months now. so he would have to prove differently to me.

I think about just the three years, and I think bringing up the rookie years is a really good point. And I remember asking Freddie Kitchens last summer, if he was at all concerned that so many of the big plays they hit during Baker's rookie year were out of structure off-schedule plays. He was like, no, that's part of who he is. But I think now we've seen that it was a concern.

The fact that if he's in a drop-back passing game, he can't really give you anything is a potentially fatal flaw. I mean, if they're not putting him within structure right now, he just starts to crumble. That issue where he's constantly drifting to his right, they've mitigated it by booting him all of the time, but it's still a real thing. I mean, he ended up getting lucky last week. There was one play where he escaped and hit somebody late in the down. I can't remember who exactly it was.

But even that is like, it's terrible pocket presence. The miss on Higgins is just him not understanding where he is in the pocket. There are just these things that feel like they're completely unchangeable about a quarterback that are flawed with him. And I just don't know how you can spin it in your mind as this guy is our guy when those fundamental issues of playing quarterback are so readily apparent. Yeah, pocket presence is the one that jumps out. And I'll tell you, you know, just ripping it from there. I'll tell you why it mystifies me. I love to watch every snap of training camp with few exceptions because I just feel like it's the only time we're allowed to watch right we might get to

see some other practice but not in any thing where we can evaluate or share right about it tweet about it whatever in 2019 training camp for the first few weeks he was throwing the most beautiful deep passes and I just thought oh my guess for three days it was amazing yeah he looks so good yeah and I'm like they you know they have odel and I just thought to myself obviously a lot of moving pieces and we'll see but once they hit a stride it's going to be there and I don't know that he's hit one deep ball from the pocket since then. Right. It's all those moving pocket boot plays where he sets up just a little bit to his left where they're moving him and those plays work. But again, that is just such a defined small window of plays that you can go to when you need a chunk.

Right. And they've done a great job of hitting them, of maybe getting a couple double moves and some deep ones the last couple weeks off of it after three games where you just couldn't throw at all, at least not for more than eight yards. But yeah, we haven't seen it. And, you know, like I said, I'm willing to give everyone involved a pass for week one because, first of all, it was a long time ago. And there's just no way the Browns with a new staff and a pandemic were ready to go play the Baltimore Ravens. But you go to the game in Pittsburgh, week six, not that long ago, right? The Browns are on a four-game win streak. The Browns are ready to stand themselves back. And it's over three plays in because he throws it right to the Steelers.

And it's just over. And so until he beats one of these good teams, and in the next 12 days, he's got chances to do it. It's going to hang over everything that he does. So some people hate that. Some people think that's the reality. And, you know, I don't know what Andrew Barry thinks because all he said is Baker's helping us win and Baker's doing the right things. People really do love Baker in the building. His teammates, you know, going back to that famous Hugh Jackson story about the pro day workout and the Pied Piper of Oklahoma.

football. I mean, they won, he won the Browns at the time, and it's different guys now. He won them over with his off-field qualities and his leadership and his let's-go do this. Again, we're not inside the building. He's on his third staff in four years. The past catchers have changed. The guys closest to him have changed. But I'm not seeing a lot of the time anyway, the same confident player. You talk about structure. I think that's a good point. But I, I, I, just wonder if he knows that he's not going to sit there and rip it in the pocket, and that's affecting everything he does even when he has chances to. I think there's a chance that he puts it together.

And I don't want this to be like an indemnation of Baker, Mayfield or whatever, for these 20 minutes. But I just, I think with time, maybe it works out. But you look at it. And so like the Titans and the Browns, they play this week. The difference to me in the Titans offense and the Browns offense, which are, it's a great offense to an average offense. is really the quarterback. Like, if you upgrade from Baker-Mayfield to Ryan Tannehill in this Browns offense, they're one of the best five offenses in the league.

It wouldn't surprise me at all. No doubt. One thing that stands out is Tant Hill's athleticism. When you watch the Browns, how many times do you cringe when Baker goes on those bootlegs and you think, oh, my gosh, an athletic quarterback would already be at the sticks right now. Yeah. And they've had a chance to kind of put it together and stick with it. So you're right.

Timing is the word here. They don't have to make a change this year. They could turn down the option and use that to motivate him and ultimately keep him. But I just think until I see much better from him that they have to keep their options open. And my answer right now with five, at least five games left in this season, is that they will. So going to the defensive side of the ball, I think it, you know, obviously when you look at the way they spent their resources this offseason, you have draft a left tackle in the first round, you spend on Conklin on off. Justin Hooper, the defense was kind of left alone.

They drafted Delpit. He's hurt for the year. But that's a unit that seems like it needs a lot more work over the next year or so. As they've gauged this first season under Joe Woods and what they want that defense to be, how did they feel about their progress and where do they feel they need to get better here over the next 12 months to kind of get that unit ready for next year? Well, they just feel fortunate. I mean, they just praise Jesus from Miles Garrett every day.

Yeah, as I would as well. They haven't had in the last two, but they've won, right? So it doesn't get any better than that. You're right. It was a clear effort to upgrade the offense and solidify some things on the offense and really patch at most on defense. They're going to start four guys in the secondary this Sunday, Robert, all of whom or none of whom are under contract for next year.

Three of them were brought in by this regime, and the fourth Terrence Mitchell is an old regime guy. He's a value guy. He doesn't make very much for a corner. You know, he's always been around the league as a third or fourth corner, and he's, he's been solid. He's far from great. Terrence Mitchell has been playing in the NFL since 1984, and you can not convince me any different. He's been around since before I was alive.

In defense, they have Malcolm Smith, who's in year 11. They have B.J. Goodson, who's in year six. They have Matt Wilson, who decent as a rookie, had a really bad start to this year because he was trying to play through a knee injury. He's gotten better, but he has not proven that he's a starting quality player. That's their linebacking core. And then the rest of the defensive line, you have Vernon who's 30, Sheldon Richardson, who's going to be 30, who's due to make a bunch of money next year,

and Ogun Joby, who had a great start to this year and has been quiet and who's going to be a free agent. So the answers in the present and in the future are that Denzel Ward and Miles Garrett are phenomenal, and every other job is up for grabs. So I think in a way, Joe Woods has done a good job to maximize some of that. I think in a way there's a lot unanswered. And I think as they look at playing the Titans and the Ravens the next two games, there's a lot of things that are scary because specifically the Titans, not just with the big back, but with AJ Brown with Johnny Smith,

the Browns are really bad at tackling in short areas and really bad at preventing short passes from going a long way. And I think the Titans have a chance to score a bunch of points by doing those things. I just want to see this defense when it's healthy. I think that's my biggest thing. Maybe I'm making built-in excuses for them. But if Ward can get back, if they get Delpit back next year, you get greedy Williams back and you just see because I think Joe Woods is a really good coach.

And I think seeing what he did for the San Francisco team last year and all the ways they mixed it up in certain situations and some of the coverages he was using, I just want to see him with his guys for a year. And I think that some of the stuff, because you can see they're tinkering, right? So now they're switching sides with Mitchell and Ward when he's healthy to put him against the boundary and have it be more of like a man defense with him. They're trying to figure this stuff out. And I think in time they can, and they've actually been okay. But I think it's really difficult when you just don't have your guys, whether it's guys you brought in or guys that are healthy,

to run the defense that you want to run. Yeah, I totally agree. I think I saw tremendous improvement in the defense, at least from a scheme, alignment, and confidence standpoint, from, say, weeks four to nine. But just when you don't have your guys, you don't have your guys. So that is going to be the big thing. I think Denzel Ward has played at an all-pro level,

just going to be without him for at least one more game, and that's very scary. Yeah, I think that it's interesting because if you look at some of the other teams in the ways they've built on defense, the Browns are going to have a ton of resources because they've spent so much on offense. But having Ward and Garrett essentially be your two rocks, one up front, one in the secondary, and just trying to revolve everything around that,

it reminds me of what the Rams do with Donald and with Ramsey. I think it's a smart way to do it. I just don't know exactly what the other pieces are going to look like, because they try to figure it out. So as we think about the defense, the offense, and just overall where this team is, they're eight and three, but what are the realistic expectations for this year?

Is this a team that you think can win a playoff game? Can they scare anybody come postseason time? Or are they going to be happy to be there in the wild card round? Let's pick it up in 2021, a year into this regime, and let's make an actual push for it. Well, I think you ask two different things there. And I would say, yes, they can win a playoff game, because there might be a foot of snow somewhere in January 10th.

And they have Nick Chubb. This team is built for that. That's very true. Yeah. But what I think realistic expectations are right now is to beat one of the Titans, Ravens, or Steelers down the stretch, right? I mean, that would prove growth. That would prove that you can play with the big voice because right now they have

beaten one team with a winning record. And that was the Colts without Darius Leonard. Right. I thought they dominated the Colts that day. But that's the only one they've beaten. So, yeah, I mean, I do not expect to run through January. But I think through November, they got to not only get more comfortable and sort of solidify their identity as that power run team, but it matched the weather. And two years ago here in Cleveland on divisional weekend, we got so much snow that the highway would have been shut down.

People wouldn't have been able to get to the state. So they're not going to be playing in Cleveland, but they might be playing in Buffalo. They might be playing in Pittsburgh. It's not necessarily pleasant if they would end up back in Baltimore or Tennessee. So I really think Nick Chubb is that good, and I really think Kareem Hunt makes Nick Chubb that much better. We said it on last week's show, Nate and Nick Chub is my favorite running back in the league. I think he's the best pure running back in the league. I think their offensive line is blocking as well as anybody.

Wyatt Teller's ascension has been one of the coolest parts of this entire off season or this entire season. And watching them, again, just try to actively problem solve in that area. I think Bill Callahan might be the best assistant coach hire of the entire year and what he's been able to do for their offensive line. And that identity works for me and I think it can work for them in little bursts. And I think you're totally right. The Pittsburgh and the Baltimore games are not only going to be huge tests for them, but huge tests for Baker Mayfield. And what he can look like against those defenses because that's the biggest concerns. When they played teams that forced them to fight left-handed, he had absolutely no chance.

and what he looks like the second time through that group, I think is going to tell us a lot about what they think about him and what they think about his future. Yeah, and some of this is designed, but it was a week ago, I think against non-Bengal's opponents, he was averaging like six yards per attempt, right? So they weren't able to challenge the Ravens or the Steelers down the field.

The weather did take that out. But yeah, I mean, I think that's completely fair. Here you'll get a lot of pushback. Like, let's just enjoy it. We hadn't done this. I mean, it really has been 19 seasons since they've been in the playoffs. So if they get there, that is a tremendous, tremendous accomplishment. And I don't mean to rain on it like that because that's how they should feel.

And that's kind of why I asked you what I did off the top. But also, I just think they have so much potential. And it's just hard to not fixate on that potential when you see all of the pieces that they have on offense. Yeah. You know, it is mystifying why O'Dell and Baker never really fully clicked, right? especially with a guy like Jarvis kind of doing the dirty work, which I think he does, and being such an important piece that you can move around to different places. So what you've seen the last couple weeks is a healthier Jarvis,

and he has a clear connection with Baker. They have a certain chemistry that shows up. So maybe we'll see better out of the passing game. Austin Hooper missed those two games when he had the emergency appendectomy. He and Baker are starting to build a trust. He is a big, big presence. I didn't know he was that big and strong. in the middle of the field.

So maybe they can get something going. However, the preference and the identity is to run it first. So we'll see. And it's working for them. And I enjoy watching it. So that works for me too. All right, Zach, thank you very much, man. Really appreciate the time.

And guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much for listening. We will be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones. Please go rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would sincerely appreciate it. Please subscribe to the athletic. You will not regret it at the athletic. com slash football show.

You can read Zach. You can read all of the other great team writers we have. It is an indispensable resource. Really appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.