The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Defensive players set to make a leap in 2025

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

Whenever a player makes a leap—whether that's bad to average, average to good, good to great, or great to elite—it can change his team. Just think of guys like Zack Baun and Derek Stingley last season. Who might make a leap this year akin to what those two did in 2024? Derrik Klassen and Diante Lee from The Ringer highlight their top defensive breakout players on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.RundownDaiyan HenleyEdgerrin CooperNate WigginsLaiatu LatuKobie TurnerBrian BranchWill AndersonCooper DeJeanHonorable mentionHosts: Robert Mays and Derrik KlassenWith: Diante LeeExecutive Producer: Michael BellerProducer: Michael BellerSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...⁠Apple⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠YouTube⁠Follow Robert on Bluesky: @robertmays.bsky.socialFollow Derrik on Bluesky: @qbklass.bsky.socialFollow Diante on Bluesky: @diantelee.bsky.socialFollow Robert on X: @robertmaysFollow Derrik on X: @QBKlassFollow Diante on X: @DianteLeeFBTheme song: HauntedWritten by Dylan Slocum, Trevor Dietrich, Ruben Duarte, Kyle McAulay, and Meredith VanWoert / Performed by Spanish Love SongsCourtesy of Pure Noise / By arrangement with Bank Robber Music, LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the athletic football show. I am not Robert Mays. I'm Derek Klaassen. I'm your other co-host. Usually I am sitting next to Robert on the co-host seat, but today I will be hosting. And today we're going to be running through, you know, I think the fantasy people this time of year

get a lot of run to do, who's going to be our breakout quarterback and skill players and all that jazz. We're going to flip it to the other side. We're going to talk about some of the defenders, some of our favorite trench players that we think are coming up. A couple of linebackers that we think could really have some good seasons. So we're going to talk about a handful of guys that we think can go from solid to good contributors,

maybe jumping into that Pro Bowl tier, and then the ever elusive guys jumping from the Pro Bowl tier into that elite, the market setting type of talent. So here to do that with me today is the ringer's Deonté Lee. Let's get into it. All right, we've got a very different show here today. Usually I, Derek Claston, am your co-host. But today I am the lead co-host. And today we're talking a little bit about some breakout defenders.

We're going to talk about some guys who are going from Pro Bowl to Elite. good to Pro Bowl, all that jazz. And here with me today is a great friend of the show, great friend of mine personally. The ringer's Deonté Lee. Deontay, how you doing? Glad to be on. Always good to be on the athletic football show.

You know, I haven't spent a little bit of time here. Good to finally be on with you in this capacity. You know, a lot of conversations that we've had in Indianapolis, getting to meet up for the Super Bowl and that whole deal. So we've talked a lot of ball off camera. Haven't had a mini guest appearances or many opportunities to bring on or our show or to come here. since you've been working with the athletic dude,

so it's exciting to finally be able to talk ball in an official capacity, especially now when the offseason is wide open and we've got a lot of stuff that we can touch on. I was going to say, before we get going, how's June in the NFL calendar treating you? How are you doing? How are you hanging? Oh, this is great.

This is like the sweet spot for me. My son's still in school, so I got a lot of open time at home. There's no football stuff that's really pressing right now. Even from a coaching perspective, this is probably the last patch of calendar where I don't have to worry about going to a practice. I don't have to worry about, you know, getting something in, you know, trying to meet

deadline or getting a podcast recorded and all that stuff. So I am taking advantage, full advantage of this opportunity to unplug and do as little as possible. So this is right before all the 16 and 17-year-olds forget the cover three that you taught them last year. Okay. 1,000%. Okay. So just to kind of to lay things out here a little bit for this show, we're talking about breakout defenders. And the way that we kind of are framing this is there.

are two little buckets that we're going to have. We're going to have guys who are going from either solid to good contributors and jumping into the Pro Bowl. That's the leap that we expecting to take or the even rarer type, the guys who are going from potential Pro Bowl level into maybe being elite. And that's top three, top four, top five of your position. So we've got five in that first bucket. We've got three at the end. We're going to start with those guys who are jumping from the solid to good into potentially the Pro Bowl category. Deonti, you are our honored guest. Who are we starting with today? So I'm going to do something that's after your own heart and start out linebacker.

We haven't had a chance to talk backers in a little bit. I'm going with Dionne Henley of the Chargers to be my guy that goes from good to Pro Bowl. And I think it might even be probably a bigger jump than that, right? Because he didn't get a ton of playing time when he was drafted in 2023. They had not a deep linebacker room, but they had a lot of moving parts when, you know, Staley and that regime drafted him. So it took him a little bit of time. And I think that last year was a great kind of flash of just what he can be as a linebacker,

And the games I've tried to watch were, you know, a bunch of different things stylistically. And I think the one thing that I always came away with watching Henley on a snap to snap basis is that he is really efforting to like think the game properly. You can see that in his process. You can see that he's trying to figure out how to solve problems for his defense. And he's not playing behind a lot of like gap pluggers or guys with great anchor up front either. So there's a lot of stuff that's going to be happening quickly in between the tackles that he's got to solve for the defense. And it was up and down early in the year, right? Like you watch them against Pittsburgh, a lot of heavier personnel, more downhill gap scheme stuff.

And it's a little bit more of a struggle for him to trigger and get downhill right off the bat, right? And some of that is scheme and design because, you know, the Jesse Mentor doesn't want to give up explosive plays to play a lot of zone coverage. So they want their linebackers to kind of pat their feet, be patient, stack gaps and all that. So he struggled a bit, but you saw flashes. And then the very next game was against Kansas City. That's more RPO, more spread, probably a little bit better fit or what he's. more used to seeing coming out of college, and it looks a lot better. He's much more decisive, fit in gaps.

You see a good tackler, out in space between the tackles, the whole deal. And then when you look at when he's targeted in coverage, you see a guy that can close quickly out in open space. He's a much better open field tackler right now than I even expected coming out of college. I thought that it was going to take a little bit longer for a guy like Kenley, kind of twitchy, but it was more of kind of like a click and close guy in the college level, not somebody I was really certain would be able to handle open space from NFL level ball carriers and playmakers out on the perimeter.

And he's just picked it up so quickly, right? He's been right there where they need him to be. I don't think that he's necessarily going to be the Mike backer they might have projected when they first brought him in like, hey, this might be a guy who can be elite at closing space in an intermediate areas. But I think even right now, if he was just a will and the role that he's in in this defense, I think that he's going to provide a lot of positive value for them going forward. you're absolutely after my own heart like to let people in behind the curtain a little bit we were texting

before our show just trying to get our list together and all that and you know we were talking about like hey you know who are we going to have at linebacker and i kind of hinted there was one guy i'm certain is going to be a star and to me it was day on henley like he's just you mentioned the coverage stuff he he he was targeted according to next gen stats more than any other linebacker in the league he also allowed negative 10.9 EPA on those targets like he just he has the length he's a very smart player and that's another thing that you mentioned he his position maintenance both in the run game and in coverage i mean outside of fred warner man it it might be some of the best in the league like he's just the guy who is so obviously put together and i'm so glad you mentioned

some of his struggles earlier in the season but then by the end it was like oh wait this guy is going to start to be a superstar so and kind of to that point to to wrap a bow on henley who again i also think he's going to be a superstar like the length his ability to i think he's going to i think get downhill did get better as the year went on. Like he's not, it's not like Donta High Tower or Juan Bentley or any of those guys. But he's not going to get a face mask. Exactly. He's not going to dent a face mask. But as the year got on, it was like, okay, he's going to do enough to get in the way. And he's not going to get run over. And I think when you're looking at a guy who is already one of the more elite coverage backers, you kind of just need him to give you that

presence in the run game between the tackles when also like you mentioned, really good tackler in space. He's really good at getting to the perimeter and all that stuff. So he, to me just checks so many boxes. And so that's kind of why I wanted to ask you, flip it around a little bit. Is there anything like you still want to see him improve a little bit to make sure he makes this jump from, you know, good to potentially pro bowl or even elite? To me, like, the threshold I set is Patrick Queen once Roquant Smith got to Baltimore, right? Like, if you can cross that threshold, then I know that you're going to be a good linebacker for years to come. And I think the best thing about Patrick Queen's game playing as that Will linebacker next to Roquan was that

he got to just be a lot more instant as a run fitter. And there are some times with Henley, especially when heavier personnel comes on the field, right? I mentioned a Pittsburgh game. Even against Kansas City, when they get into some of those kind of like 13 personnel looks, or they're really going to condense things, you can still see that little bit of hesitation. Body's in the right position. You can tell that he knows where his body's supposed to be, what gap he's supposed to fit, whether he's supposed to fall back, whether he's supposed to, you know, bounce.

out to the edge. But I think that that little bit of hesitation does take some pop that's already a weakness in his game, right? His lack of pop is already kind of a weakness in his game. That little bit of hesitation really kind of sets him back. So you will see sometimes guards and tackles get underneath him. And there's just not a lot he can do with his body type if a 320-pound guy gets their hands in on him. Right. So I think if he can be a little bit more instant, you mentioned Fred Warner, that's his superpower, right? If you don't get a chance to get to his chest because he knows where the play is going to go and he's so instant in fitting his gap and taking the air out that is really difficult for teams to get an angle on him in the running

game without just avoiding him altogether. I think that for Henley to start turning closer to that direction, a lot of this is just going to be pre-snap processing. And I mean, he's a second year player and a guy who didn't really get a fair shake in his first year, or didn't get a lot of snaps in his first year to begin with. And this was a player that coming in, out of Wazoo, I was certain was only going to be like a coverage guy. Maybe you blot him off the edge. And you. every once in a while, and that's how he gives you positive value. So the fact that on his rookie deal, he's already kind of flashing that he can be a plus run defender in certain respects. That to me is, it's so encouraging that now I am kind of in a place where I don't see how this

fails. I can see him being maybe a pro bowl or once or twice. I can't see him never making a pro bowl. I can't see it possible that he ends up being drafted over early in his career because he has anything that hangs him up. And to me, I think that I just feel more certain about him than maybe got like Edron Cooper who was drafted last year, right? And I think that Edron Cooper's numbers are always going to suggest that he's a very productive linebacker. And there are some things that he does well. But if you look at him being kind of that click and close guy in last year's draft or

two years ago versus what Henley was and what we saw last year on tape, with Cooper, there's still a lot more that you've got to project, right? He didn't get targeted much in coverage because they used him as a blitzer and a lot of different creative ways. He's playing really just kind of like on a vertical plane, right? is straight downhill or it's straight off of an edge. You don't really see much lateral movement and not that he's incapable. You just haven't seen that flash.

And they've really tried to condense his role in the defense. With the guy like Henley, it's entirely possible that we're looking up in October of this year. And even if he's not leading the league in tackles, all the advanced metrics are saying that when he's on the field for the Chargers, they give up less explosive plays in the passing game, they're able to get better run stops. And you're getting to watch him kind of range more from sideline to sideline. I expect that his role is going to grow and that he's going to grow as a player in relation to that. I'm so glad you mentioned Edjard Cooper because that makes the transition here incredibly easy because that was going to be my other linebacker. And I think they are such a funny contrast because the way that we've talked about Henley is it's like, okay, he's a pretty good athlete and all this stuff.

But a lot of why he's successful is he's incredibly smart already. One of the best coverage players, just a very fundamentally sound player who if we think Jesse Minter is the coach that we think he is and we like that defense, he's just going to continue to get. smarter and smarter, and that's going to kind of be his superpower. Edron Cooper is none of the. He's complete opposite player where it's like the put-togetherness is not there. Not there yet. When he's in coverage, it looks like he's playing dance dance revolution sometimes. Like his feet are just so choppy. Even in the run game, he gets a little bit too excited sometimes, a little bit of like the cat chasing a laser thing, which can sometimes be an issue for young linebackers. But athletically, he is as exciting as I think it gets for the position. And I think he was a more

physical presence than I really thought coming in. Like he was one of those guys where when he was at Texas A&M, the reason I had some reservations about him was he was kind of playing that apex, almost a slot, almost a down safety role for Texas A&M, which was like kind of the Isaiah Simmons thing, right? And I just watched it. I was like, I just don't know if this is really going to work in the NFL. Like those guys playing in the box is just so much different. And it was different.

And that's why in Green Bay they did have to limit him a little bit. he's not doing a whole lot of coverage they like to send him but i think as a run defender you actually did see a little bit more put togetherness a little bit of better eyes a little bit more physicality than i thought that we were going to get and it's still again a little bit of a work in progress and i think you are having to project next year like what does this look like as a full-time guy can he actually be a functional coverage player for us but for him to have already been a better player than i thought in year one plus my faith that i have in jeffley as defensive coordinator plus all of his athletic tools.

It feels a little bit like maybe I'm doing the Quay Walker thing again, but I do think Cooper is actually a more interesting athlete than that. I think that's fair. It's funny, the top note I had on Edger and Cooper, especially watching some of the early season games, was cat chasing a laser, right? Because you do see that on film,

at least early, like the first six, seven games of the season, it was very much, okay, I'm shuffling this way. Oh, shit, it's outside of zone going the opposite way. He's just doing whatever. You know? And I think the Jeff Haffley was really, wise to try to build bare fronts with him where you walk him down to the edge and now you're bringing him and you're slanting the line opposite. That's a really good way to shrink the game for

a linebacker and give him a chance to be disruptive. And that never left the game. But what I saw, especially like to close the season when the Packers were playing the Vikings for the second time, you watch that game and it's like, oh, okay, now there's real linebacker stuff happening where you're able to stack a gap. You're able to take a block on. Your feet are more balanced and underneath you at all times. You trust your eyes. And now you're able to go be a disruptor in the backfield in a way that doesn't have to be teed up by the play call. It is just off of your natural instincts, you're understanding what offenses are trying to do to you based on where you're aligned and what their tendencies are. I was really encouraged by what we saw from him over the last month.

There are times watching Green Bay World is really interesting, right, because they have all these different linebacker machinations and guys are in and out of the lineup because they're banged up. but like when he's playing next to Isaiah McDuffie, Isaiah McDuffie is very much like a linebacker coach's linebacker where he's going to be in the same base every snap. He's going to take blocks on the same way every time. Even if he's not making tackles, he's never going to grade out negatively

because he's going to have the right leverage. He's going to play, you know, he's going to play the game the way it's drawn up as lines on the sheet of paper. And sometimes that can be limiting, right? I don't know if you're ever going to get that kind of play out of Edger and Cooper because I just don't know that he's wired that way. And you look at the more narrow frame, I don't know if I want to ask that guy

to go be headbutton guards, you know, an inside zone, you know, 25, 30 times a game. But what they can do with him because he's so athletic is what we saw last year. You play a very kind of muted, very kind of narrow role early in the season. It starts to expand a bit. And now I think the biggest question for him is

and whether or not he can be a superstar level player is when they ask more of him in coverage, when it's not just Quay Walker and Eric Wilson as your, you know, your nickel linebacker guys or Isaiah McDuffie playing that will spot in those nickel and sub packages, and it is more of Edger and Cooper out in coverage. What do we see from him in that respect? I don't know, you know, like based off of what we saw at Texas A&M, based on what we saw last year, I don't know if he's ever going to be one of those matchup eraser types, even though his athletic

profile suggests that. But if he can just be an underneath zone guy with how much zone that Green Bay seems to be, it seems to go in as projecting to play based off what we saw last year, and he's able to get his hands on passes. You saw that pick on four averts against Sam Howell when they played Seattle. Some of that is Sam Howell making an awful throw. But another piece of that is the fact that when he's at his best, Cooper can change directions and get right back up to top speed in a way that you don't see

often with linebackers. And that, to me, is enough of a base to be able to build a really productive guy at the second level off of. That's a good point because I think we're all chasing the guy who can, take three up, right? The Bobby Wagner's, the Fred Warner's. We all want those guys, the Matt Milano's, but there's only ever really a handful of those guys in the league. But if you're not going to be one of those guys, you need to be really, really good at being one of those guys who gets proper depth and then just plays what's in front of you really, really well. And it's a really good run and

chase guy. Like Aziz al-Shahir is not a great get-depth and run with the three, all that type of factor. But if you're throwing checkdowns in front of him or screens and all that, he's going to go up and kill it. And I think if Edrick Cooper can just be that, and then like you said, add a little bit of that value on, sometimes you can walk him down to the edge. You can fire him as a blitzer in some of these certain ways. Like, he is probably never going to be a traditional elite stackbacker. But if he can be one of those slightly weird players, like a Frankie Louvre where you can just do some stuff with him because he's such a good athlete, that I think is a path for him to be a pro bowler. So I was like, I'm so glad we, those are two such funny linebackers to put two yet.

next to each other. But I think that's why the position is interesting right now, because you've got those guys like Henley's who so clearly get the position and is a great functional coverage player. And then you've got these guys like Cooper who are more modern, just move them around and see what happens, guys. So I think it was kind of funny that we arrived on those two. All right. Moving on from the backers, who else do you have in this kind of good, potentially into Pro Bowl level player? So I'm going to go with Nate Wiggins. Right. I'll go with Nate Wiggins. his corner. I think he's a really fascinating guy to project going into year two of his career, right? And when you think about what the story was for Baltimore secondary, it's really fascinating

because so much time was spent on what was going wrong at very certain positions, right? Oh, we can't play Kyle Hamilton in the slot because we're giving up too many explosive plays. Our second, third, best safeties aren't getting it done. There's a lot of time spent on that. I think over the entire breadth of the season, we spent a lot of time talking about what a problem Brandon Stevens was as the outside corner opposite Nate Wiggins, right? And how much of a limiting factor that was on them in coverage. And I think that Nate Wiggins just kind of fell to the wayside. Like there really just wasn't a lot of analysis given to him.

And in fairness to him, because Brandon Stevens had such a rough 2024 season, he just wasn't targeted that much. So it's not like you have a lot of tape to go off of. And a lot of the tape that you do get with Wiggins, you know, like the commanders game is probably the most extreme example where he's playing a lot of off coverage, so teams are just throwing comebacks and hitches that are just like not really his coverage. But when you look at him in tight coverage, the way he's able to break on the ball, the way he is able to produce at the catch point, I think that the speed is real, right?

It's not just, oh, this is a sub-4-4 guy because he's less than 190 pounds. This is a guy who is a legit, long strider, explosive mover. Change of direction is probably always going to be a question in his career because of just like the way he's built and the way that he runs. You can C teams are really able to break down off the vertical stem and he can't match in some way that the more shifty guys can he's kind of like high-waisted and lanky he does have like a kind of bizarre he's not like a basketball player's build he's definitely got a basketball players build in that respect um so i do think that there are going to be certain kinds of receivers that give him trouble but in terms of i want a guy that's taller than six foot that's got long enough arms

to be able to get in the guy's chest and match him on a vertical route stride for stride you see that all throughout the tape right and you see that quarterbacks have a hard time trying to fit the the tight windows. He's also able to break down aggressively, get his hands on the ball. He had 11 PbUs, which for guys that were playing at corner positions, I think, ranked like 11th in the NFL last year. So everything is pointing upwards. And then you think about the fact that he is kind of protected by maybe having the best safety in football playing next to you. You've got a guy that can be an all pro in the slot and a pro bowler outside in Marlon Humphrey that's going to be playing in that defensive backfield. And if Malachi Starks can

step in for our Darius Washington and give them instant value as a young safety, now you're looking at a situation where there's not going to be a lot of positive places to go with the ball and maybe we get more interception production than we saw last year. That was also kind of an issue with him at Clemson, right? Like you didn't get a ton of picks. You got a lot more PBUs and just contests at the catch point. So I think that maybe if he was a little bit more ball productive, you would just hear more conversation about where he's going to stand in the conversation with Young Corners.

but you go back and watch the tape on a snap-by-snap basis in the passing game, and he kind of checks all the boxes of what you want out of a pro-world corner. He would have added a pick last year if, so against the bucks, Baker Mayfield tried to throw like that deep high corner. And Kyle Hamilton, it doesn't, or maybe it was Marlon Humphrey, I think. Oh, is Marlon Humphrey, who picks that off, yeah. He does like an incredible job sinking under it and, like, he picks it off. But if he did it, Nate Wiggins actually beat him, beat the receiver to the ball.

And so he really does have, like, incredible instincts. Wiggins is interesting to me because I'm like a again, we mentioned his build. He's, he has this funky build. He's more of a skinny guy. That's usually the type of corner I hate. I want the big like the six ones, the 205 pounds, you know, grill into your chest, like that type of corner. But Wiggins really does play, I think, bigger than his size. And there is still some element of because he's only 185, 190 pounds, he does still get bullied sometimes.

But I think he actually gets away with it more than he should because I think he uses his length. really well. Like you mentioned, his footwork is really good. And he's just a guy who as soon as he feels the ball is coming, whether that's a cue from the receiver or he's got eyes on the quarterback. His click and close ability is maybe not special, but like about as close to it as you can get. Like he really is a pretty awesome player in terms of making sure that he is getting to the ball and contesting stuff. So he is just one of those corners who, if you're not going to be the big Christian Gonzalez just absolutely bully you the Carlton Davis. If you're not going to be one of those guys, you really need to be one of those quick-footed

pests. And he really is. Like he does an incredible job of that. So I'm glad you brought him up because Wiggins was, I actually think there are so many young D.Bs that we can go through for this. And Wiggins was one purely from an outside cornerback perspective that probably is the most interesting to me next year because again, some of what they were trying to do in the secondary last year.

And then he was a little bit on and off the field. but I think next year we know he's he's going to be the guy and I think he's going to get a really good chance to prove just how good he can be. And I think that for me, like, well, A, I think that, and maybe most importantly,

is that Baltimore is clearly starting to build now with the assumption that Wiggins can be the guy and that they're not going to have to ask Marlon Humphrey to step back out and be a lockdown outside corner, even though last year was actually a really positive year for him in that respect, I think you can tell that if Kyle Hamilton is not going to be the guy in the slot,

that they want Marlon Humphrey there, right? because that's the next thickest body who can blitz, who can help fit the run game, who can get a body on those quicker slot receivers and kind of knock them off their space. And I think that if Nate Wiggins can show that ball production, he's already lined up on the defensive left, which means you're just going to get more targeted on average, especially if the corner opposite you isn't a sieve the way that it was last year. And I'm not trying to, like, I don't want to totally dump all this on Brandon Stevens.

But it was rough, right? Like, you think about that Thursday night game against Cincinnati. I went and I watched that because I want to. wanted to see what Nate Wiggins look like against top competition. And you get like halfway through the first half. And it's like, oh, this isn't going to be quality tape for Nate Wiggins because Jamar Chase is over there. You know, all those guys are over there picking on the weak spot. And even that, I think, is a compliment to what they thought of a rookie corner, that that wasn't the guy that they wanted to go attack.

So yeah, if he can avoid soft tissue injuries, if he can stay healthy, stay on the field and continue to be competitive at the catch point. we can look up by the end of this guy's rookie contract and say he might not be like that tier one Derek Stingley Patrick Sertan level of player but he will be very firmly pro bowl guy if he hit free agency he's going to get paid at the top of the market just based off what we saw last year yeah the dynamics between him and like the targets between brand and Stevens is like what you got from wiggins was it's like how sometimes we talk about offensive linemen like what's the best thing you can say about an offensive lineman during a game nothing but like like You just don't notice him.

And that was kind of what you got a lot of times from Wiggins. And again, some of that was because teams just felt they could target Stevens. But again, the fact that teams didn't really feel like Wiggins was a guy that they could go to, I thought was pretty impressive. So really glad we talked about him. I think he has a chance to be a star player. All right, before we get to our next handful of players, we're going to take a quick break here. All right, back with my next one. We're moving back to the front.

I'm going to go, I'm going to go with Laetu Latu of the Indianapolis Colts. Another rookie here. he, LATU is fascinating because his, the production wise would not suggest to you that he was like a particularly great player. Only four sacks. I think he had a 12% pressure rate, which is not embarrassing by any means. I was like, that's actually pretty solid. But that is not. For a young guy. Exactly. It's solid for a young guy, but not indicative of like, oh, I think this guy is going to take the jump, all that sort of stuff. But with Latu, and I don't mean to compare these two players, because I do think that they're different. But there is an element of Latu where you watch him in like,

with Khalil Mack as a rookie, he was clearly the strongest and smartest player on the field, but sometimes just like wasn't 100% like unlocking himself to be that player. I think with Latu, you saw some of that. And what's funny is that actually kind of comes up in the numbers. Like in the moments where he did unleash it, he was really, really good. He had an average time to sack of 2.9 seconds,

which was one of the best in the league. And it was better than guys like Nick Bosa, DeNeal Hunter, who his whole thing is that he's getting to the quarter. immediately, better than Michael Parsons, who, again, his whole thing is he's getting through the quarterback immediately. And even Will Anderson Jr. So even though he didn't accumulate that many sacks, when he did, it was these very like aha moments of like, okay, he just unleashed and kind of went crazy. And even his time to pressure was under four seconds, which is again, one of those, you know, closer to being kind of not elite, but very, very good just in terms of how quickly

you're getting to the quarterback. And I also think all of that is particularly interesting coming from a Gus Bradley defense where like they're not doing a whole lot by way of scheming you open to get like some of these other guys have quick time to pressures because it's like like in the Todd Bulls defense like Yaya Diabes is pretty fast and he's a good player but also he's able to get quicker time to pressures

because they're ringing five and six and he kind of gets their free one on one. You don't get that as much in the Gus Bradley Colts defense so I think what Latu was able to show in that respect was really impressive and then even beyond all of the stuff I just said as a pass rusher. He is already like a top 10 edge defender

as in the run like he is awesome against the run his his his you know kind of like we talked about with henley his position maintenance i think his strength is really good his eyes are phenomenal i mean there are times where you know they're they're trying to pitch to his side and obviously the receiver tries to come down and crack him and he's just not having it he swims over to the top of him like he's just so fast to see everything and i think when we get into year two with him and he really gets more confident in that stuff we're going to get a guy who i think has the tools to get like 10 sacks and then also be one of the better edge offenders in the league in terms of the wrong run game. Right. The thing with him was always just like a question of can he access his ceiling

quickly. You knew you were going to get a high floor player, a guy that can give you value on all three downs. Like you said, I think he's even outpaced my expectations of what it was going to be as an edge setter defensively. A lot of what we saw at UCLA at the time was more just like high motor stuff. I'm like, okay, can this guy sit down, you know, take a squat, you know, on the edge, take on a base block from a tight end, take on a puller. That just wasn't the way that they were playing when he was there, it was much more so, you know, stopped and run on the way to the quarterback. So I did have some questions, but based off of the top-end flashes that we got out of last season, and I would, I am not saying that this is exactly how this guy's career is going to play out,

but you think about a player like Jared Allen, right, where like you look at the measurables and sometimes it's like, I don't really know if I'm seeing an elite guy in terms of speed and get off. And he doesn't have the longest arms in the world. But that relentlessness, that understanding of because I don't have a ton of length, but I am a taller guy, I just need to be able to manufacture a face. And I thought that his quality pressures, that's exactly what it was, right, is let me get this offensive tackle's hands off of me quickly. And if he can do that, even if he's not a bender, he can turn the corner on you because he does have a lot of size on guys. Right. And once he's within range of the quarterback, and I think that Aiden Hutchinson is really

good at this as well, another taller guy, shorter arms, high motor type of pass rusher, they just seem to have this effect of being able to make that final step to close and finish with contact on QBs. I think that when Latsu was at his best, we saw flashes of that, not nearly as consistently as we got out of Aidan Hutchinson in his first couple of seasons in the league. But if you're looking at that, that's a great roadmap for what he can possibly turn into as a player, right? Because he is so high energy, because he is a relentless pass rusher, because he does have

already a kind of uncanny understanding of. of how to win as a pass rusher with the guy that's not just, you know, giving you the dip and rip, you know, or giving you the Dwight Freeney signature spin move or something to that effect. And if the run defense continues to grow, there's an opportunity for this guy to be one of the best pure pass rushers in the league on top of just being baseline threshold meeting, you know, solid run defender. And that to me looks like a guy that can be a pro bowl player. And if, you know, you have those T.J. Watt hot stretches where you go get 14, 16 sacks.

Now you will be, you know, first or second. team all pro player. And I think that that's within the windows of opportunity for a lot to. That's such a good thing to bring up like the dichotomy of how a pass rusher can be really good. I think we all imagine the Micah Parsons. Like he's just bigger. He's just faster and have more athletic than everybody else. And that's certainly a way to do it. But there are also these past ushers who are pretty good athletes, but win more by having incredible discipline, incredible hustle. And then just a huge array of moves and an understanding of what the tackle is trying to do to them. Like, Trey Hendrickson, I think does a really good job of playing this way.

where he just knows what he's getting and he does a really good job of being able to get on you that way. Khalil Mack, again, is a really good athlete, but also is just smarter than the offensive tackle he's going against. And always feels like he has the right move and is able to access it as soon as he realizes that's the best motive of attack on that given snap. And so, again, I think if Laiatu, Latu can just turn that up 10% more a little bit next year, just get a little bit more confident, a little bit quicker on the decisions he's making and going to the right tool at the right time, just would not be shocked if he gets double-digit sacks and then again continues to be one of the better edge-setting run defenders in the NFL. So I'm pretty excited for him. But of course, we have a few more. Deontay, who's your next guy in this category here? So I think it's the last guy I have in this category of kind of good to pro ball trajectory. And it's Kobe Turner, right?

Like, I think that there's a lot of credit that we can give less need and Sean McVeigh in terms of just developing this front and knowing how to identify guys who can play. I think the Kobe Turner might be the biggest success story of this next era of guys because the expectations are relatively low for a guy that's drafted where he was drafted and coming into a position where you are now filling the shoes of 99, which like nobody in the NFL should want. That's what makes it the most insane. The timing of it all is like, come on. 1,000 percent. And like, it's not that he reminds me of Aaron Donald, but the guy that he does remind me of is Namdi Madibike at times, where it's like good at everything.

He is very solid across the board. He can win with power. He can win with his motor. He's got some good hand fighting techniques. And he can continue to grow in each of those respects because he's a much better athlete than I think I expected him to be relative to his peers coming into the league. I mean, he just has these things both against the run and in the passing game that reminds me of like that last year of Christian Wilkins in Miami. Right. Where it was like, oh, this guy's kind of put it all together.

He knows what his go-to moves are in the passing game. When he finally learned to defend the run that year? Right. Exactly. And like you're committed. Like, okay, I'm just going to get out of my stance and be as disruptive as possible, strike guys and disengage the same way I would as a pass rusher. And boom, Christian Wilkins was really productive in that respect. Kobe Turner has already flashed that in the first two years of his career in a way that

immediately should set off alarm bells in every coach in the NFC West mind that, oh, my God, this guy might be one of those perennial pro bowl level producers because it's not one dimensional. It's not just, oh, this is a snap jumper. Oh, this is an arm over guy. Oh, this is just an anchor. You know, he's going to sit and you're just not going to be able to move this fire hydrant out the way. He has already shown this breadth of knowledge and technique and understanding of the position and how to leverage his body and when to use his athleticism and converting from being a run defender to getting after the quarterback and play action scenarios, you're going to have a really hard time poking holes in a guy's game like this.

And to do this so early in his career, I think that we're going to look up and say, like, oh my God, this is the next defensive tackle that had 10, 11 sacks in a season. And he's the unblockable force on the interior that we didn't expect. And now he's surrounded by, you know, Byron Young, Jared, Jared Verse, who could have very easily been on this list for me as well, for how productive he was as a rookie. So it's not like you're just going to be able to slide to this guy on a snap-by-snap basis because other players on this defense need attention as well. So everything pretends really positively for this guy to continue to grow.

maybe not ever hit that all pro tier, but I think that he's just solid enough, you know, kind of the definition of a red chip player where you know he's going to do everything well on a snap by snap basis. It's the checks every box and then still has enough of the highs that make you feel like he's a dynamic player. And I think because of the players that he's surrounded by,

actually he's kind of the perfect player for what they need, right? And for their build, like you have Puna Ford now in the building, who is your, he's the fire hydrant. Just put in there, he's going to defend the run. And then you have Braden Fisk, who was a little bit more like, okay, he can't really do anything but be at the three tech and just sprint straight forward. And he's really good at that, obviously, but that's kind of the only

thing that you're going to get from him. And that's a little bit volatile. But having a guy like Turner who can kind of play in both worlds, he, again, he's not exactly like these players, but it reminds me a little bit of like almost a decade ago now, which is crazy to say, when the Panthers had Kowan Short and Starletool-Tool-Lay, where both of those guys could just play like nose or they could play three-tech, either one. And it was just like that, that versatility and kind of in a way unlocking everybody else in the front. Like, I think it even kind of makes for some interesting stuff

with like you mentioned verse, because obviously verse is good off the edge, but he's also like a really good pick piece on a lot of these stunts and twists because he's a really strong player. And obviously Turner is athletic enough to really work on a lot of that stuff. So Turner is like in a defense that has a lot of other guys

that kind of fit a particular role, Turner is a little bit of the like, all right, how can we allow this guy to get the other pieces that we want on the field then that's why I think with some of what we saw from their defensive play calling last year, a little bit from Chris Shula, I'm pretty interested to see what the front looks like, because I do think Turner is kind of him and verse are very symbolic of I think what they can accomplish this year.

And I think that he and verse and Chris Shula in just the way that they've designed this defense. It's so fascinating because the Chris Shula just showed up day one at training camp and was like, I feel so confident in you guys. We're going to be in four down. We're just going to be in nickel every snap. And I'm just going to let you guys tear off. I would not. I wouldn't protest that because we've seen enough at their highest level to suggest that they could go do that effectively.

But the fact that they have built this positional versatility in a guy like Turner, like you said, he can play the one, he can play the three, he can play all the way out to four. If you wanted to get into some of those more traditional odd fronts and do all of those things effectively. But if you wanted to just play, hey, this guy's going to be our three technique. Or if we want to pick on centers, we're going to make him the shade. We're going to make him that one technique. We can make him the nose. and he can do that as well. The door is just so wide now for them to do whatever they want with Brayden Fisk, right?

Fiske is going to have struggles in certain respects with certain matchups because he is kind of one of those shorter arms, more stout but not necessarily the greatest run defender, more of a disruptor than anything. But he's protected by having a guy like Turner playing alongside him. So they're going to have so much front versatility. I think that when we're projecting out the fact that the ramps could potentially be a legitimate contender again in 2020.

A lot of that is going to be based on this defensive front. And it's not necessarily he's a featured piece. I think Jared versus a featured piece of this. But he is not far behind as a number two option in terms of run defense and being a great pass rusher. And if we look up in the Rams or in the top 10 in terms of the defensive DVOA, I think that it's going to be because a guy like Kobe Turner is having a significant breakout season.

Yeah. And to the point of potentially them just unleashing the patch rush to be a four-man unit, I think this is a little bit of a tangent, but like Puna Ford, if he helps them on first down get into second and nines and second and eights in a way they did not get into them last year, then you get Turner and then potentially fist next to him and then versus able to unlock really as like a four-man pass rushing unit. Then I think again, I agree like if the Rams really do hit their ceiling as a defense, which given some of the talent in the secondary linebacker is still probably only like a borderline top tennis unit. But if they get there, it will be because the front is kicking every line. one's ass and Turner is going to be very responsible for that. So I'm very excited about that unit. All right. With Turner now out of the way, we are going to, he was the last one in our bucket there of guys who are going from the solid to good to maybe they can be a pro bowler next year. Now we're

going to be moving into the next bucket, which is, again, guys that are tougher to find, which is your pro bowlers to potentially elite, like maybe top three, top four, top five at their position, guys who, when it comes time for payday, they're going to reset the market. Those are the guys we're looking at. So I'll, I'll know to start off. here. I'm going with a guy I just absolutely adore in the secondary place for the Lions. Brian Branch at safety is, he is just a phenomenal player. And I'm going to fully admit, I'm a sucker for the Sabin DBs, man, like the guys who hit, the guys who are incredibly smart, especially the safeties, right? Like, if Nick trusted you to play safety in that

defense, you were clearly very well put together. Like, Eminka Fitzpatrick taking on the responsibilities he did, Xavier McKinney in that defense. Like Ronnie Harrison was an awesome safety. for them a while ago. And then obviously what Branch was able to do both as a safety and a nickel. And what we've seen in the NFL is I think he continues to be one of the smartest players in the league. I think he does have really good range. He's not like an elite athlete, but I think he's pretty well-rounded.

And he makes the most of his range by how smart he is. Like you go back in, we were just talking about the Rams to bring them up again. If you watch that Rams Lion game, very early on, there's a section in that game where he's rotating down into the boundary in a measurement. immediately sees that Cooper Cup is running like a little bit, one of those like eight-yard speedouts, flies over there and gets under it. But there is just zero hesitation, zero fat to what he's doing. And that's him coming down as like a rotation down almost into the box type of coverage player. Then there's a play against the Vikings where he is actually your deep post safety,

kind of like shaded a little bit more towards the field. And the Vikings on that player running two just deep crossers. You've got Jefferson running the one where he's a little bit shallower and he's kind of running the other way, and then Addison running the deeper one into the field. As soon as Branch's the post player realized, oh, Jefferson's a little shallow, nobody is running the actual deep post to attack me in the hashes. I could just come off and just go sprint in front of Jordan Addison and pick this ball off. And he does. And he actually gets there so fast, he almost like runs too far. And he almost misses the play.

But I mean, that's the kind of stuff that you're getting from him where he is just always the first guy to the point of contact to the ball. Like he's just so smart, so put together. And he's, again, not an elite athlete, but always good enough to get where he needs to be. So I just think that in a Lions defense that obviously we have Aden Hutchinson there, he's a huge leader for them up front. But in terms of the secondary now, especially with Carlton Davis gone, Branch is their leader. It's kind of a young secondary that's still trying to find other way. And I think Branch continuing to step up as that guy, I would not be surprised if next year we're like, yeah, man, he's the second or third best safety in the league. I mean, to me, it's like, a little bit less athletic, Buda Baker,

but I think what he loses in athleticism, you get everything you want in terms of football IQ and versatility positionally, right? Like, as the injuries were stacking up for Detroit in the back half of the season, you go and you watch the All-22, and I remember this specifically when I was getting prepped to watch them play the bills late in the season. You go and you watch like the last four games, it's like, oh, my God, every time I have a problem, 32 is a guy that they're using to solve the problem, right? Like you want to get into base, but you're running out of linebackers because Anzolone's not back yet.

Jack Campbell might be banged up. Malcolm Rodriguez might be banged up or whatever the case may be. Okay, we'll be in big nickel, but this is our sandbacker. And it's not the sandbacker that's walked out over the slot. This guy is stacking the tight end, right? And he's going to go fit in the C gap so that way you can't run, you know, power or outside zone towards the tight end. And he's doing that at that front. frame and then two snaps later, okay, it's third and seven.

They want to play cover one, but they don't trust any of their other safeties. Now this guy's in the middle of the field or he's down over a slot because that's just the best way to erase the matchup. They're able to play so many things defensively because of him specifically. And I think that now as attrition is hitting, Aaron Glenn is out, they're going to have a different look, right? There's no guarantee of what we're going to see from Aiden Hutchinson once he is cleared and back doing all football activities.

and on the field again on Sundays, there is one thing that is going to be a certainty for me, and that's that 32 is going to be close to the ball and that when he is, good things are going to happen for Detroit's defense. The ball production is there. We've seen that high IQ play transfer immediately over from what he was at Alabama to Detroit.

And I think that as long as they have that guy playing safety, you can do so many different things with him, especially if Terry and Arnold is a true number one corner, where now that guy is not just a problem solver, but a true eraser, right? He can be what Malcolm Jenkins and CJ Gardner Johnson wear in New Orleans in the 2017, 2018 years, where you're just kind of doing this interplay between do I want this guy in the slot and this guy at safety or the opposite? Where is the matchup problem for us?

And we're going to use that to our advantage to take something off the table for an offense, both in the run game and in the past game. And he's just so important to me because every great defense has a skeleton key, right? And that doesn't even necessarily have to be their best player. I think you can make the case that Hutchinson might still be their best defender, but Branch is, to your point, the guy who lets them get into all these other personnel packages and get into different coverages. And obviously with the Ravens, it's a guy like Kyle Hamilton.

And I think you could even make the case last year with the Eagles. It was like Zach Bonn. He could be a sack linebacker. You could put him on the edge. You could be a really good cover guy. We could blitz him and he's going to get to the quarterback. A key was kind of their skeleton key, even if, again, you could make the case that like Jalen Carter was actually their best player. but every defense needs a skeleton key

and branch to me is very obviously that guy for the lion. So I'm just really excited what it's going to look like for him where again, without Carlton Davis in the building now, he is very obviously the veteran in that room. He's got to be the guy who's going to be the captain and step up. And so I'm really excited for what that's going to look like. Before we hop into our final two players, we're going to take one more quick break.

All right, we are back. We each have one more player left for making that jump from Pro Bowl into the elite tier. Deontay, T's up. Who do we got here? This is probably the most chalk one. Like, honestly, it's kind of cheating, right? Like, within the parameters of this, he qualifies, but he's so good.

He should probably be out of this. But I'm going to squeeze this in anyways because I can't stop. There's not, there's no way to say enough about how good he is and how effective he is as a player. And that's Will Anderson on the edge for the Texans, right? Like a lot of guys, I think on this list for me are in this kind of tier playing for the Texans. And I don't know. if you were watching defensive linemen as closely, earlier in your coverage,

like earlier in your coverage and your football fandom, but I remember for me, like, I always wanted to be an outside linebacker, so I'll watch these guys all the time. Being an Eagles fan, I remember Trent Cole as the edge rusher, being such like this dominating speed force who grew and just went on a bunch of weight

and it just became this dominator altogether. And I think about guys like him, and I think even more aptly in comparison to Will Anderson. I think about DeMarcus Ware, and Dwight Freeney, maybe not still stylistically, but those two guys just had this effect in a game, right? We're like in the first five to eight snaps, you just knew, oh, this tackle has nothing for this guy.

This game is effectively over now for this team because he's just going to whoop ass, right? And Will Anderson is that kind of ass kicker off the edge. Dude, the playoff game that everyone is like harping against the Chargers where it's like, oh, Justin Herbert, all this and that, dude, him and DeNeal Hunter made those tackles look like almost unplayable. That was a good, one of the best tackle dealers in the league for 18 weeks. And then you step into the playoffs and it's like, oh, they can't play today.

They can't hang. I mean, the very next week, even though they lose that playoff game, you're watching them against the Chiefs. It just became very clear that like, if Patrick Mahomes wants to survive to the end of this game, they have to do something about 51 because they can't block them. Juan Taylor does not have a, does not have a prayer of blocking this guy. And it wasn't any better on the left side. Like you said, having to Neil Hunter as his running mate now. really makes it difficult because now you can just lock him in on one side and offenses are going to have a tough time trying to work, you know, extra help.

And even against chips because he's so powerful, he doesn't always have the most artful game, right? Like, again, you're not going to see the technician stuff that's going to be tweeted out by, you know, the offseason trainer, defensive line coach of all this cross stab, dip, rip, club, spin, whatever combo. Even though that is a piece of his game, a budding piece of his game that continues to grow, so much of what he does. was the same thing at Alabama too. It is just like this force of nature. There is just nothing like this guy getting off the ball.

He gets underneath tackles. He digs that long arm into a guy's chest. And within a second and a half, that guy's being dropped off into a quarterback's lap. And then that also shows up as a run defender. And I think that he's become such a good pass rusher so early in his career. It is almost kind of muted how much of an effect he has. As an edge setter, as a guy that can be disruptive against the run game, We don't talk enough about that.

This is probably about as complete a defensive player that is not yet won a defensive player of the year trophy. And I honestly would not be shocked at all. 2025 is the year that he does that. Yeah, he's such a special pass rushy that you forget. He's like, what, the third best edge run defender maybe? Like it's Kalil Mack. And I think after that you can just start the conversation.

Him and Max Cross. It's probably Mack and Max Crosby. And then it might be Will Anderson. But the fact that he is in there and we don't even feel the need to talk about it because he's already like a top eight pass rusher alone is, is incredible. I'm so glad you bring up the strength because obviously when he was coming out, part of the thing was like, oh, he's not that big. He's kind of hovering around 250 and he is a speed guy and he can win that way. But like pound for pound, him and Micah Parsons are the

strongest edge players in the league. It is bizarre how strong those two guys are for, again, probably hovering around 250 for both of them. And so I think that's why both of their games, you know, obviously they're not one-to-one players, but that's why their games work so well is they have all the speed that you associate for 250 pounds. Oh, and also they can play like their 275. It's almost like, you know, Jared Verst last year. He's a little bit bigger at 255, but he also plays like he's way bigger than he is, and that's why those guys are able to hang.

1,000 percent, like I said, I mean, as he continues to add to his past rushing repertoire in terms of moves and counters, and I think that this is going to be a key year in that respect, because after the last two seasons, I think he's going to start garnering so much more offensive attention, even if that means. at Daniel Hunter continues to be productive on the opposite side. I'm fascinated to see both what Houston does, because what we saw in San Francisco with the same defensive staff was, okay, Bosa now becomes the stunt guy.

We're going to design as many stunts as possible to be able to take advantage of the way the offenses are trying to slide and use chip of help. We're going to make you waste your tackle. We're going to make you waste that tight in on a chip because this guy's going to be spinning or, excuse me, looping towards an interior gap to go right down the chest of a quarterback. If we can continue to see that for him, then, you know, the sky's the limit.

Again, this could be like an 18, 19-sac guy. And he has not yet shown you that Von Miller go-to pass rush move yet, at least not from a finesse perspective. A lot of this has been speed to power and him being that effective as a pure edge rusher going from speed to power in a league that's got bigger tackles, more athletic tackles than we've ever had before. It kind of speaks to, like you said, that pound-to-pound power and wattage that's coming out of his body. Yeah, he is just, there's not many players his age that I would want to bet on to be like, that guy is for sure going to be one of the best players in the league for the next five years. Like, he's just incredible. And I, last thing I want to say, I want to make very clear to people why Will Anderson actually does still qualify for this.

He did not make all pro first or second team last year because, and listen, I do not mean to take away from this player. Nick Benito had a really good season last year. He is not better than Will Anderson. And it's kind of crazy that he actually got on the all pro team ahead of Will Anderson. So that's why he qualified us. Also helped by having like a really hot stretch coming towards the end, right? Where sack production really spiked as people were paying more attention to Denver because it was clear that they were going to end up being the, they were going to end up making

the playoffs as a lower seed. And I think that the narrative around Houston, so much of it was focused on the offense. And I just think that like Will Anderson's contributions weren't appreciated. That's not going to be the case in 2025. I don't think. I think that this is going to be a big breakout year. And if you look at their schedule, there's going to be a lot of opportunities for that guy to get after quarterbacks because they're not seeing the toughest opponents. No, absolutely not.

Like they are, I think next year again, yeah, when he puts up a dozen sacks again, we'll be like, okay, let's finally give this guy some dude because he certainly deserves it. All right. Moving on to the final player that we have here, my last player. This might be like an insane hot take. I don't know if it is. And actually, so it's funny, Will Anderson kind of is a weird one to qualify because he should have been an all pro and then wasn't. but so technically he can. This tier is supposed to be like pro bowl guys who jump into all pro,

but this guy was not actually a pro bowler. For me, it's Cooper DeGine. I think he might be the best nickel in the league. I truly think that he has that level of potential. And I think we saw it last year. Like, I think the only reason he didn't make a pro bowl is he didn't play the first four games of the year. And then obviously, like, nobody for the Eagles played the last game of the season because

they didn't need to. But when you watch his impact on the team, like, I think in our minds, we all think because of how the Eagles played in that Super Bowl and down the stretch and all that, down the stretch of the season that their defense was elite all year. It really wasn't until Cooper DeGine got in the lineup. Like they weren't, they were an okay defense for the first month of the season. And then DeGine gets in there and he's their nickel. He's an incredible piece as a purely as a coverage player.

Like he runs man to man better than a lot of nickels actually do. He's really good in zone coverage when he has to. And then he's already one of the best, I think, tacklers in the league in terms of range technique really doesn't get like if he gets hands on you're probably not going to get away from him and he's not i think when we think of nickels we we want the guys who are incredibly violent like the the the mike hilton's the kenny moors the car crash dummies right and he's not quite that but i do think he is a very physical presence for the position so he to me is just he checks every box athletically um he's able to cover basically every assignment that you need

him to. And I just think that he is truly one of the smartest players in the league. And you saw that almost immediately, like the way that he was playing in the Bengals game in terms of being on top of their shit. And that is an offense where the quarterback is also trying to be on top of you in terms of what you're doing as a defense. Like he just, for him

to play the mental game with a guy like Joe Burrow, I thought was incredibly incredibly impressive. I mean, bringing up that game, right, that tackle on Jamar Chase, fourth, and short that you get. I mean, it just speaks perfectly. Exactly. It just speaks perfectly to what he is in terms of having like that quick twitch ability, the ability to tackle out in open space,

the play recognition to know what offenses are trying to throw at you. I just remember there was that four game. They weren't all back to back, but there was that stretch of season where they see Baltimore, they see the commanders, right? They see Pittsburgh. They played Dallas a couple times in that stretch, if I remember right too.

And it was just so clear. I think that was really the stretch where people started to catch their eye or the Eagles defense started to catch the national eye for how dominant. they could be in certain moments, especially on the back end. And even as a run defender, right, you got to see him stick his nose in. He was getting involved. The teams were trying to bounce the ball out to the perimeter. And in coverage, and I think that this is something that is easy to underappreciate, because if you're in a quarter scheme, usually that apex defender,

you're really only noticing him on checkdowns, right? Things that are thrown quick out to the flat or late in the down. I'm just flinging the ball to a tight end or a running back out in the flat. Maybe that guy can go gain me four extra yards after the catch. That just doesn't happen with him, right? The biggest compliment I could give to Philadelphia last season is that they were the best open field tackling team in the NFL. And he was a central force in that. It was him and Zach Bonn. Those two guys, if they had you one-on-one in their sights, you were hitting the turf, right? And to do that as a rookie is so impressive. And then I think specifically, I remember just sitting in the press box of the Super Bowl, and I'm sitting next to Sheel-Kopati and Stephen Ruiz, my

co-hosts at the Ringer. And they're talking about all this other stuff that's happening with Patrick Mahomes. And I'm just watching Cooper DeGine communicate. Okay, they're going trips. It's a bunch. I know that this is the coverage. This is where I need to get to in terms of very specific depth. The second the ball comes out, I know how to click and close and go make a play.

You get that pick six, which is just like a perfect encapsulation of why he was so intriguing coming out of Iowa, right? And why there was a legitimate conversation of whether or not he was a safety and outside corner or a slot, all of that was on display in that game. He has the quick switch ability to be able to cover guys quick out into the flat in the RPO game. He can show up as a run fitter. And then in those situations, when the play breaks down, quarterback is out of the pocket,

and now he's able to play with his eyes, his feel for what's happening behind and in front of him. Like you said, I mean, that's best nickel in the world type of stuff for a guy that didn't even get to play for the first month of the season and basically had no preseason or training camp because he was dealing with that hamstring or groin injury from that lifting accident early in the summer of 2024. And you can only continue to see him build from there. I've heard reports out of Philadelphia that he's been spending some time at safety.

When they're in base, he's been spending some time at outside corner. So we might even get to see another evolution of what he can do in this defense. I still think he's going to be a majority nickel, but don't be surprised at all if you start to see that kind of positional versatility really be utilized as maybe the, the greatest weapon that the Eagles have on the back end. I would absolutely love that because he covers like he's a guy who could absolutely play outside corner. Again, to your point, coming out of Iowa, people thought that he could do that.

I think it's so fascinating you bring up the, you know, with the Eagles, so much of what they were able to do was you didn't notice big place that happened in the flat because him and Bond were just tackling them all the time. What's most impressive to me and like what combined with that is insane is that in the instances where let's say he's playing quarters, he's playing the flat and immediately realizes I don't have a threat. in the flat. I don't have anyone in front of me. His ability to sink and help the safety behind him,

help the backer next to him and close that window. Like, it is truly special stuff for like any player, let alone a guy who was walking in into his first season. And again, didn't really play the first month of the year. Like just for him to so quickly piece all that stuff together and to be the athlete that he is, it really just feels like the sky is the limit for him. So I'm very excited you bring up there moving him around a little bit.

It's effectively like, we got James. Jaylen Ramsey and Los Angeles play out of that guy in year one of his NFL career, right? Like that's Jalen Ramsey, Derwin James, and Slot level play out of a rookie. The sky's the limit if that's the starting point. Not that it's going to be linear every year, but the fact that he was able to do that off such a short kind of on ramp into the NFL, I'm as an Eagles fan, he's a player that I'm clearly most excited to watch going in a year two of his career because he could very easily be an all pro level player in 2025 and beyond.

Absolutely. All right. Before we get out of here, were there any couple of players that you maybe got left off one of your list that you maybe just wanted to throw a quick mention to just to give him a little bit of love, get the take out there? I would say the one guy that's probably a little bit off the beaten path will be Kaelin Bullock, right? Like I spent a lot of time thinking about whether I wanted to add him onto the list because

of the ball production. I think that he's for a young guy, I think he was like 20 years old when he was drafted to instantly be a starter in the NFL and be one of the best, like, post-safeties in the league. Very early in his career speaks really highly to what Houston is doing in terms of developing that defensive backfield and what he is as an athlete, really rangy, like 6-3-6-4 guy will lay out to go get the football. I think his football IQ was much higher than even I had anticipated. I was going to say he plays like an insane person.

He plays like the Miko Ryan's DV. Oh, and it's hilarious because the guy is like 180 pounds soaking wet to like he'll come flying out of the roof and hit a guy and he's still falling backwards because it's just not a lot of weight, you know, coming with them. But he is willing to lay his body on the line for the ball and I love that. And I say the rest of the guys, you know, similar to Will Anderson are probably players that really shouldn't, this shouldn't apply to, right? Derek Stingley is probably going to be a defensive player of the year candidate, been an all pro level player for a couple years when he's healthy. Christian Benford, I think has everybody's attention, another guy that could have been in the conversation.

And then, you know, you think about Jared Verst. That was the other guy. I considered that like could have very easily been in the conversation. I just wanted to show a little bit of love to Kobe Turner. Was there anybody for you? Yeah, one less guy I wanted to ask you about as an Eagles guy. Where are you at with Morrow, Jomo? I think he's like really good. I think, you know, obviously Milton Williams got paid a shit ton of money for what he was

able to do this last season. I don't know if a Jomo will play quite that well, but I think he could do like 90% of it. I mean, he's in a perfect position to do so because you're going to be playing next to maybe the best overall defensive player football in Jalen Carter. or the best interior defensive lineman, at least, right? And he gets to be, he gets to be what Milton Williams was, you know, and what all the three techniques have been, or what all the interior defensive linemen have been in Philadelphia

that play alongside of Jalen Carter or Fletcher Cox, where we're just going to let you tear off, right? Like, I still don't know what he's going to be. Yeah, I don't know what he's going to be as a run defender. As his share of the snaps go up, I think that he's a high-energy guy. I don't know if he's necessarily the most productive run defender. But in terms of, like, third and obvious past situation, don't be surprised if that that guy like by efficiency metrics is right up there near the top of the league in terms of pressures you know quarterback hits per pass rush and all that stuff because he is right there and I think that this could be another breakout situation for him because he's as protected as you can be as a number two defensive tackle all right I love to hear that just making sure the Eagles fan is in line with what I'm trying to get excited about this way on this okay I mean there's always the next man up in terms of those trenches there in Philadelphia so I figured OjoMo had to be the guy all right

right that is all we have for today dante thank you so much for for being on the show i think that this was a blast um i know you said this time of years is a little bit quiet for you but is there anything you want to pump moving forward uh as we kind of move into the off season here for you i mean if you're looking for any coverage over on the ringer i do power rankings there every week in season so there's that and obviously on top of all the other nfl coverage that we're doing i'm on the ringer NFL show um so you can catch me from a podcasting perspective there as well other than that, if you see me at 7 on 7, somewhere in the state of California over the next month and a half, feel free to come stand next to me and listen to me complain about how much I hate 7 on 7,

even though I'm being drug everywhere else to go compete. But now, other than that, you can catch me what my football takes at the ringer on social media at Deonté Lee FB. Thanks, Derek, for having me, bro. It's always great to talk with you. Yeah, I love that. I've gotten the anti 7-on-7 spiel a number of times already. Several times. Exactly.

All right. Thanks again for being on the show. As far as the rest of the listeners, thank you so much for being here as well. Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back soon.