The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Derek Carr signs with Saints; instant breakdown with Nick Underhill

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

The first big domino of the NFL offseason fell on Monday, with Derek Carr and the Saints agreeing to a deal. Nick Underhill of NewOrleans.Football joins Robert Mays to break down the move on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nick on Twitter: @nick_underhillSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's show is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.comPhilo: Sign up today at philo.tv and use promo code MAYS to get 50% off your first month Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today, break into some breaking news from New Orleans. Dot Football, a Saints Authority. Nick Underhill, Nick, thank you very much for doing this. I'm sure you got a lot to worry about today. Yeah, a little bit, man.

But hey, there's a few guys that could have called me today, and I would have showed up to do this. You're one of them. I love listening to the show. I think you do a great job. Respected your writing and everything for years. So thanks for your first. grab me on here. I appreciate it. Really appreciate it, man. You wrote a piece today. If you're a a Saints fan and you're not subscribed to Nick's site where he's doing a lot of great work that you really

can't get anywhere else, highly recommend that you go check it out. I am not a Saints fan and I am a subscriber. So I think that's all you need to know about the type of information they're putting out over there. You wrote a piece today really about how this all came together. So I want to get into that, but I want to talk about it on a big picture level first and foremost. Just thinking about how Derek Carr at this stage of his career at the price they're going to have to pay for him. fits into the Saints plans. So why Derek Carr, why in this moment, does this marriage make sense to you? The Saints aren't a team that I think are ever going to just pull back and start a rebuild.

They're always going to try to go forward. They're always going to be the team that trades up in the draft. They're always going to be the team that kind of does the mafia accounting on the salary cap. And there's people that aren't going to like that and they aren't going to like the approach. Look, I understand it. I think there's times maybe even going in the last year where you're kind of looking at it and you're like, does this make sense anymore? Like, once they miss out on Deshawn Watson, like, why are you still kind of, you know,

going for it the way you are? But where they've kind of built their team is if they pull back now, like their core of players, Alvin Camero, Cam, Jordan, DeMario Davis, even Marshawn Lattimore, like guys like that, Ryan Ramchek, you waste the end of their careers. You just traded all these picks last year to get Chris Alabe. If you don't get a quarterback now, that trade was for nothing. And you just gave up a top 10 pick for Andy Dalton to throw. passes to Chris Olavay for another year. So I think just kind of the way they build their team,

where they're at, how they operate, this is a move that kind of makes sense for them. And look, I think, you know, you kind of look at the finalist here. It's the Saints and it's the Jets going for Derek Carr. The Jets have picked in the top five, I think, twice. Their last good quarterback, I think I would say would be Mark Sanchez, maybe. I mean, and they're the team, they're the team going to find good. I mean, it was the last time that it felt like it. But yeah, I mean, it's been a long time. So I think just kind of, you know, it allows you to get somebody in the fold. And the one thing I would say is I don't think it precludes them from continuing to look in the draft for people. But at least then you're making moves you want to make.

Maybe you're trading up to get to 10 one year to get Patrick Mahomes instead of trading up to 10 to get Mac Jones because you feel like you have to. So I just feel like if you can get somebody that's kind of a solid quarterback in a bad division and you can win the NFC South and you can get to the playoffs with all the stuff they've done, it kind of makes sense for their very. specific situation. I think that's the important part to point out is that it's a very specific situation. If you were doing this in a vacuum signing a 32-year-old quarterback who's, I'll say, the 12th best quarterback in the league on a good day, it's a dicey proposition. It's going to limit you in some of your other team building avenues and possibilities, and you're going to cut some avenues off for you to make yourself better. But they're not operating in a vacuum. They're in a very specific situation where you have an aging roster. I believe they were number one in the league

get snapweighted age. Bill Barnwell pointed that earlier this spring. Not surprising when you look at some of the most prominent players on the roster where they're at in their careers. They don't have a ton of draft capital. They obviously got the first back in the patent trade, but they're giving away a top 10 pick in this year's draft, so they don't have that many avenues to a rookie quarterback contract. This is a way for them to compete right now. And I said it in December, you know, when all the writing on the wall seemed to point to Derrick Carr being released. Quarterbacks like this just don't get released very often. Whatever you think of Derrick Carr, there's a reason that he had multiple suitors, multiple teams wanting to come after him, because

quarterbacks of this caliber, top half of the league quarterbacks, like, if that's a fair characterization, don't typically become available. So now you have this roster that's ready to win now. You got a top five defense last year, and you can drop a very capable quarterback onto that team. There are some dicey elements to that rationalization. Who knows that the defense will keep being this good? It's one year older.

So many different needles you have to thread for this to work out and look at. like the Matthew Stafford situation in Los Angeles, but they had put themselves in a position where you were going to have to thread a needle anyway. So this isn't a bad strategy overall considering the alternatives. I get that. You just look at it and it doesn't make sense to back up. And I hate to say that because like everything I think about football in my core beliefs kind of before ever covering the Saints, like the Saints have challenged those and then they kind of make me look at him a different way. And then all of a sudden like you're arguing for Derek Carr and you're like, why am I arguing for Derek Carr?

Like, this isn't how I want them to operate, but I don't, I don't see the alternative. Like, people talk about top five guys all the time. Like, your odds of drafting, Zach Wilson, Blake Bortles, James Winston, Marcus Marriota, or whoever, even if you become a bad team are a lot higher than actually going up there and getting someone that's going to change your franchise. It's, you look at it, I just did a study recently, and it was going back like 10 years and like 75% of the seasons after a team drafted someone in the top five ended in a non-playoff birth.

And that's just kind of the reality of the situation. People get overdrafted and it is hard to have that perfect Easter egg of a draft pick workout and you go in and you go out and you get Trevor Lawrence. Like it doesn't happen that way very often. Again, look at the Jets and there twice and didn't happen for them. And the other problem with this too is that if the Saints just didn't get a quarterback and they were kind of like, ah, we'll mail in the season. Like their defense is probably going to be too good for them to be picking very high in the draft.

their 10th this year and they had the most insane injury luck I've ever seen in my whole life. Like they just were losing player after player. Like if you looked at their roster before the season and you said, you know, Marshall and Lottimore is going to miss 10 plus games. Mike Thomas is going to miss the whole season. James Winston's going to break his back in week one. And, you know, there's a bunch of other stuff going down the list. But I think just even with those three, you would have been like, oh, man, their season is

terrible shape, but they still ended up picking 10th. I mean, so I think just with how good they are on defense, they're going to remain good on defense. It's going to be tough for them to find any other avenue to getting a viable quarterback. And I'm sorry, but like maybe Henning Hooker ends up being great. But if that's your plan at 29, like Andy Dalton and Hendon Hooker, I just don't think that's a viable option. So this is something that I think they had to do. And I, you know, I like it for the team too in the sense that Dennis Allen now, there's not going to be any excuse for the season.

He reshook up the staff. He got all his defensive coaches over there. It was kind of eyebrow rise raising to get rid of Chris Richard. But, you know, he's got Woods and his guys over there. Now it is his defense. It is his staff entirely. Kind of the last relics of the Sean Peyton there on the defensive side of the ball are now gone. All of them are.

It's completely DA staff. And it should be. I mean, he's one of the better defensive minds in the league. So he's got that. And now he's got his quarterback. So if it doesn't work out, there's no excuse. I mean, they've set this up. They have the pieces that they should need to be able to succeed in this division.

and, you know, there's just really nothing to say after this point. So I like that the factor fiction on everything, all the pieces are there to actually kind of really know what they are and what they're going to be moving forward. And look, if it fails, then the seat should be hot. And they should be looking at all that stuff because they got their guys now. And this is the guy he wanted. He drafted them. So this is his quarterback.

And now we'll see how they do. I think it's just about exploring what the alternatives might be. Yeah, top five quarterback is great. They don't have a top five quarterback. They can't go get a top five quarterback right now. The second best thing to have is a capable quarterback on a rookie contract. They're picking at the end of the first round. It's not a range.

You can typically find those guys in. They get overdrafted, like you said. They already have a lack of draft capital going into the future at 2024 second that they traded away. It always seems like as I look through every team's draft capital, they're just missing random picks that I always forget about. But that's the spot that they're usually operating from. So continuously trading up from that spot, especially in a draft where it seems like

a lot of teams to be looking for quarterbacks in the top 10, you don't really have Avenue to find a rookie on a quarterback on a rookie contract this year. So then what's the next best thing after that? It's probably a capable veteran starter. And when you have to pay up for that, it's not ideal, but not every team is operating in ideal circumstances. And I think that's where the Saints are. So let's talk about the pursuit of Derrick Carr and kind of how they tried to sell

themselves to Derrick Carr. You talked about the initial meetings, the dinners that they went to. Just walk me through what that pursuit looked like from the saint's side of things. So yeah, they were the only team that really got in the mix with the Raiders to try to execute a trade. And everything I've heard about that is that Derek just wasn't going to approve a trade period with the way they handled it. That stands for the only team. Yeah. And look, the other thing, too, is that they didn't let them talk to more than one team.

Like maybe if they let them talk to multiple teams and weigh his options a little bit, maybe then he approves the trade. But like, it just never made sense. Like, why weaken the team? Why let the Raiders get something? The only reason would be is I do think when we see this conference. my track, maybe it's a little bit lighter than the previous one. It may be having those numbers in place gives you a little bit of leverage to maybe negotiate a better deal. But I think when we see like the real numbers, it's going to be a little soft. What do you think it's going to be? So I don't know where it ended up. Everything I heard last week at the combine was that they were kind of hovering around 25-ish of real money per year. I wouldn't be surprised. We saw the report Sunday night about him leaning towards the jets. Maybe it got up around 30-ish. But I think it's going to be in that 25 to 30 range of just like real actual money.

Now, the average annual value per year whenever it comes out, I'm sure it'll be a little bit bloated. And then when we see the actual contract, those numbers will come down a little bit. I think it's a little bit telling that, I don't know, what are we two and a half hours into the story breaking? And we still haven't seen the contract yet, except for the year. So I think that says something to. But yeah, they were the only team to kind of negotiate that. And obviously it got turned down. But they went out to dinner.

Michael Parentin, their director of pro personnel was there. Dennis Allen and his wife, the offensive coordinator, Pete Carmich. was there and Pete Carmichael ended up being a huge selling point for Carr. One of the things with him last year in Oakland, like they didn't really let him have a lot of control over the stuff that was happening on offense. And that's kind of surprising me because I came up covering the Patriots and like everything was option routes and kind of reading the defense and calling plays and, you know, quarterback control and thing at the line of scrimmage. I guess they didn't do a lot of that in Oakland. And he had a lot of that control under Gruden. And those were his best years with

the Raiders. So Carmichael wants someone that can kind of make their, offense go. Like they want someone that can go up and they can set the protections and he can read the defense and he can call two or three plays and you read the defense and okay, we're running this play based on this look and they want a quarterback that can do that and Carr wants to be able to do some of that. So kind of sharing that vision solidified it for him a little bit. He didn't know a lot about Carmichael at the time and coming out of that, that became a huge selling point for him. And then he heard from Drew Breeze and Breeze kind of sold him, you know, on the culture and how things are done there and in how open it is for input going back and forth on everything and Ian book uh shares an

agent with car and he was with the saints for a few years he talked to him kind of just heard about the culture and how things are done here uh a little bit and then last week they go to the combine they meet again they talk it was a good meeting you know coming out of that end of the week they started negotiating a little bit on the numbers and and that's where things started coming together for him kind of quickly um you know the thing about the jets came out i i felt pretty confident i was telling people to bet the house on the Saints even after that came out. Like I just didn't see where it was going to go that way. Everything I heard and everything, you know, from both sides, it just felt like it made too much sense for this to not come together. So look, they got, they got their guy in plan B,

as you were kind of mentioning it, you know, I don't know where they would have went from here. One of the names we kept hearing was Jimmy Garoppolo, and that kind of seems like the obvious plan B for anybody that, that want a car and they don't end up getting them. And I think Andy Dalton would have been a very serious option. The one thing is, is it just felt like they were done with Jamis Winston, regardless. I don't think he was going to come back here. There's a, there's a sad part of me that, that, you know, kind of is just always going to believe that he gets another chance, like he could maybe do some things somewhere, but it's just not going to happen here. And, you know, that kind of became apparent last year. So I think it would have been Jimmy G or Andy Dalton,

probably both. I think they would have tried to bring both guys in. And then you look at the draft and you probably end up overdraft and head in Hooker because you kind of have to. the control over the offense and the ownership over the offense, I think is such a great point because it's really different with the Jets. You know, that system that they run, assuming that Hackett's going to bring a lot of those kind of Lefleur-Shane-a-hand kind of aspects to the offense, similar to what the Jets did last year, the quarterback doesn't really have a lot of control in that situation. It's why Aaron Rogers had so much trouble early in his time there because the coach plays

through the quarterback in that system. And the Saints aren't like that at all. You are setting protections. You do have a ton of control. You mentioned, and I've talked to people over the years about this a lot, those dot meetings that they have on Saturday night before the game where the coach is literally going with the player with the quarterback through every single call on the sheet that they could possibly have in every single situation.

And you're getting to dot your favorite plays in all of those moments. So the day before the game happens, the quarterback gets to shape the game plan with the coaching staff. There's a ton of ownership. And Derek Carr, one of his best attributes is the way he sees the game. He is very, very smart and very, very, very football smart. And getting to wield that at that stage of your career, I think that's a selling point. I totally get why you would choose that situation over something like the Jets.

And in terms of supporting cast, there's been this kind of shaping of the narrative around the Jets. It's quarterback away team and you drop the right quarterback on there and it's a great situation. I don't think it's a better situation than what the Saints have right now with their offensive personnel. Chris Oliva, I think, is just as good as Garrett Wilson if didn't have a better rookie year. The offensive line, in my opinion, has fewer question marks than the one that they're trying to piece together in New Jersey, you know, penning in a year two, yeah, one of the best right tackles in the league. Their interior, Eric McCoy's been a really reliable player. We'll see what happens at those other spots and how they save money, which we can get into

a little bit, I guess. But I do think that the other pieces that they have are just as good or better than the Jets have. Alvin Camara is there. So you're running out of reasons why the Jets are a better landing spot than a team like the Saints. So this doesn't surprise me at all. We were doing our quarterback carousel show a couple weeks ago just trying to pair teams together. Carr and the Saints always made the most sense on both levels and not surprised that we landed in this spot. Yeah. The one thing I would say for the Jets is that maybe they're a little bit younger and they feel like they're assigning and maybe their window will be open a little bit longer with kind of their young core. But you go to that.

If I'm 32, I don't give a shit how long the window is. I want to win right now. Well, that's the thing. I mean, you go to the AFC East and it's tough. You got Josh Allenston and the way Miami's going to be good for a while. Belichick's you know, who knows what they're going to look like, but they're always going to be tough in the division against their opponents. So you might not make the playoffs. And then in a couple of years, maybe you're going through these changes again and you're kind of in the same situation you were in with the instability and everything. And then like you said, the AFC is crazy. You come to the NFC South. I mean, it's basically Derek Carr and Kyle Trask. Like I don't even know who the other starters are going to be this year for the other teams. Like it's it's wide open right now. So it just kind of felt like- And the NFC in general. Yeah. Well, let's look at the landscape of the NFC, period.

If Rogers gets traded out of there, who's the best quarterback in the NFC? I mean, there's an argument that like cars like a top five, six guy in the NFC right away. I think at least. Yeah, it's crazy. You got Dak, J1 Hertz. Kairwa's not going to play for half of the year. Who knows what the hell's going on in the NFC North right now? There is a real opportunity.

When you're dealing with quarterbacks in this tier, I had a really good conversation with the head coach at the Combine about this. If you're in that kind of second to third tier of quarterbacks, you obviously understand that your margin for error is smaller. You're going to need to get in the dance and then have four or five coin flip plays go your way over that three to four game stretch if you get into the playoffs. Going back to what the Rams did with Stafford. And if you're the Saints and you're looking at the landscape of the NFC and you really have no other place to go, you can absolutely talk yourself into that timeline. It's like we get in, we get a guy who can have those four or five moments that truly elevate us, even if he doesn't do it, play in and play out, game in and

game out. I get if you're Mickey Loomis and all the guys in that front office, getting yourself to that place. Yeah, 100%. I mean, everybody always wants to say, like, well, if you don't have the quarterback that wins you the Super Bowl, what's the point? But like, how many of those guys are actually in the NFL? Like, how many people? Like, if you're naming them, there's, there's like three or four guys that I think guarantee you a shot at the Super Bowl every year. And then there's everybody else. And a lot of people want to act like, well, why try? Why try if you don't have one of those guys? Well, you try because you might be Jimmy Garoppel and be a passive from, from to Emil Sanders away from beating Patrick Mahomes in the Super Bowl.

And exact scenario came up when I was having this conversation. It drives me nuts. It's just like, look, like I get it. But like there's there's three unicorns, four unicorns in the NFL. And then there's everybody else. And you can win with them. And it's not easy. And I'm not putting the Saints in the Super Bowl because they got Derek Carr.

I put them in the playoffs and maybe, you know, who knows what happens from there. But you got to make the playoffs before weird things can start happening. And this at least gives them a shot. So yeah, it's wide open right now. And I do think that the Saints looking at their cap and everything, like there is an internal feeling of, okay, we want to clean this up. We don't want to live like this forever. But they do think that they can continue to compete.

They can still be a good team while allowing some of these decisions to fall off and maybe not being quite as aggressive as they were in 18 and 19 when they felt like they were right there on the cusp but winning a Super Bowl. I think it's always going to be in their DNA though. They're just never going to stop and they're never going to sit back and they're never going to let it fully explode unless things go incredibly wrong like they did in 2014. And they kind of had to go into that rebuild. And it was because they built a toxic locker room. And there really was no choice except to kind of pull everything off. And, you know, it's kind of drew

breeze and a bunch of guys for a couple of years there. But they're never going to willingly do that. I mean, it's just, it's just not something that's that's in their DNA. All right, let's put your mob accountant hat on and let's figure out how we're going to afford this. Okay. You have, you do a fantastic job of figuring all about the financial stuff because you have to as a person who covers this team. So the news from this morning, it sounds like James Winston is going to be released. Do we think that's going to be a post-June first cut? I do. Yeah. And that would save about $12 million. Yeah, but you wouldn't get the relief 4.4 now and then you get a little bit more on June 2nd. Okay. So even if that happens, we're still about $5 million over the salary caps

signed on $25 million a year quarterbacks. So how else are we going to get there? What else needs to happen for you. Yeah, look. So the thing is, it's like just open the over the cap page and anything with eight figures. Just, just restructure it. I mean, that's it. I mean, it's really, it's really that easy. Cam Jordan, 13.9. Like, obviously. 34 years old. 34 years old. We're just, we're just, fuck it. Yeah, you don't want to do it, but, but you do. So that's 13.9. You can save a lot of money there. Marshall, Lattimore, 14.5 million restructure it. Andrews Pete. Another guy you probably don't want to touch restructure it. Alvin, do that. 9.4 million restructure. it and you're kind of there.

And look, I mean, the one thing they do, and it's a little bit different than other people, and they don't care like that Cam Jordan's, you're pushing money out and there might be dead money. Like, say he leaves at some point and there's $20 million in dead money, they'll just push another $20 million from somebody else. And they're just always going to build their contracts like that. And we're going to see it with Cars deal.

I'll guarantee it. Like it'll be a kind of small signing bonus. And then in 2024, there's going to be like a $15 million sign or roster bonus. they'll convert it to a signing bonus. So it's kind of like a two-step process. Yeah, yeah, no question. I mean, that's just how they always do it. So, I mean, there's just always room there.

And, you know, the argument I'm going to have for the rest of my life as long as I'm covering this team is people are going to be like, well, they have to pay it at some point. Like the thing comes to, like, does it? Like, it's a, it's a interest-free loan, basically. You're pushing the money forward. And then, like, someone that's better at math is going to blow this next point out of the water probably. But, like, you look at it and like, you're pushing money.

forward from this year and then two years down the road, the salary cap's going to be so much higher. And you're pushing a dollar forward today. And now two years from now, it's going to be worth 70 cents of what it is now. So I mean, like you're kind of pushing money up and then it's inflating. So you're kind of in a weird way, maybe paying a little bit less on some of these things. The problem is, though, is that you keep doing this. And sometimes you do get backed into keeping people in, you know, there's a few bad decisions, I think. Like, again, Pete's someone that that I would like to see them kind of maybe consider moving on from the left guard, injured a lot, just hasn't really lived up to the contract, but they're going to end up

tying themselves into him. And then, you know, they did it with DeMario Davis too recently. He's an older player. I don't think that there was any, any thought of getting rid of him, especially because he's still playing well, but he's great in the locker room. But you do that deal and now kind of limits your options of maybe even evaluating Cade Nellis, who had a really good year in his ascending player, possibly replacing him because you do need the money.

So every now and then you do get backed into the. to some things, but they'll find a way to make this work forever, and it's going to make people scream and be mad, and it would have just kept working if there wasn't a pandemic, and the cop didn't crash. And it's all about opportunity costs, and we've seen them run into some of those moments, right? You'll have to let Marcus Williams go because of what he's going to get paid. You pay a discount to bring in a guy like Marcus May, who's not the player that Marcus Williams is, and you live with the consequences.

It's about to happen at edge rusher. The way that you've moved money around, Trey Henderson walked. Marcus Davenport is about to hit free agency, so you're probably looking for, another edge guy. I mean, we've seen them have to live with the consequences of this stuff, and they've still managed to keep and build a contending team because of the way that they've been able to stock pile talent at some positions. Like, what they look like at corner right now is pretty silly in a league where a lot of other teams are looking for players at that position. So somehow they've made it work for them, even if they are living on the edge pretty consistently.

Just one point on that, like one of their biggest issues, though, and I see this from national people all the time, and they say, well, they had to let this guy walk and everything. it is true. They did have to let them walk. One of the best ways, though, I guess, to not get in the cap troubles is not draft well, because, like, they drafted well and they had to pay Mike Thomas, Marshall, Audimore, Ryan Ramchek, Alvin. They let Marcus Williams walk. They had to let Tray walk. They, you know, they got Davenport. They got Eric McCoy, who they had to pay. Like, part of the reason that they have cap issues is because they drafted so well, and they had so many players worth paying. And at some point, you do have to make decisions to let some of these guys go.

Now, a few of these decisions I would have made a little bit differently. Like, I would have kept Marcus Williams at all costs. Like, I would have figured that out. Trey Hendrickson, I think that's kind of a regret. Making the trade for Davenport was a mistake too. But some of their cap issues are just simply due to having too many players they had to pay. And at some point, you have to let some people walk because you can't pay everybody. There's no doubt.

But again, we're talking about opportunity costs. Yes. Having to restructure some of these deals and, like, the fact that Andrews Pete's going to have an $18 million cap hit this year. That's not necessary. Eventually, you create problems for yourself with some of those moves, but you're right. I mean, they've had so many guys that are worth retaining that eventually you can't keep everybody. And it's easy to look back with hindsight and say, uh, Trey Hendrickson, he's had a really good, he's been really good for the Bengals.

It's your third rusher. When you find that guy in the middle of the draft, you've already allocated resources to other people at that position, sometimes that has to happen. Marcus Williams is the tougher one, where you franchise him and then you actually have to let him walk and he was such a huge part of what you were on defense. I hated that. the problems of a really good team. I hated that move. It's tough. I mean, like, again, you eventually opportunity cost is real and you have to make tough decisions.

The guy I wanted to ask you about, what do you think it happens with Michael Thomas now? Do you think this changes the potential plan with Michael Thomas because I know there was a lot of just rumblings about whether or not they were going to have to move on from him, whether it was smart to move on from him? Do you think that this gives a better chance for him to be on the roster this year with Carr there now? Yeah, it does. One other, like weird captain, too, like a guy like Mike Thomas, I think illustrates, really well. Like one of the things about living this way is that you can't afford to have people that aren't playing. And that's, it kills your team. It kills your depth. It's the middle class of the roster that it really takes out. So Mike goes on and then it becomes a huge thing for him. But

yeah, so they restructured him recently and they set that deal up. Basically, it's going to explode on the third day of the league year. There's like a $30 million provision that kicks in if he's still on the team on that date. So that was basically a cat maneuver to set it up so that you get the relief now instead of having to carry all the money like they will with James until June 2nd to get it off. So they gave him a million bucks to lower his base salary. And that just allowed him to carry him at a cheaper cost. And you know, when they did that, my initial read on it was that he was gone. Like I didn't think they were going to, they were going to bring him back. I figured if they were going to keep him, they would have just

renegotiated that salary. But I've heard from people on both sides that that door is still open for him to potentially come back. So I think they're going to try to figure something out to keep him on the team. I think it's going to probably have to be something that protects the team if he doesn't play, you know, maybe five, six, seven million dollars a year with some upside on incentives to protect Mike when he, if he does play and perform and everything. And look, he looked good last year until he got hurt. And I don't, I don't know. I mean, I would gamble it because I think he's possibly going to go somewhere. And there's a scenario where he's good again. And I think it makes sense to maybe spend a little bit of money just to finally find out.

if you can get on the other side of this thing. But I do think they need to backstop it. Like Mike has been hurt three years in a row. They need a possession receiver really badly. And you got a quarterback now who hasn't been good in the red zone throughout his career. So you need to make life easy for him to have somebody, you know, a bigger body guy that's different than Chris Olbe and Rashid Sheed, who aren't necessarily going to make contested catches. So I think that's kind of maybe the most critical thing for them. This off season outside of getting a running back since Camara is probably going to miss some time.

But yeah, I think the door is wide open for Mike Thomas. to come back. At the end of the day, I just respect it. Even if I don't agree with everything that they do, it's just impossible not to respect it. It's like, that's how I feel. Just giving like double birds to everybody all the time. Like, no, there's no way we're backing down here. We're pushing everything in and we're just going to live with the consequences. And man, it is an ethos. At the very least, they have principled stands on these things. And it's hard not to respect it. Where did they go for dinner. What was the spot? Ralph's on the park. Yeah, it's a good spot. It's a little bit kind of more casual,

not too upscale, but yeah, a good place, good setting. I think they kind of knew the quarterback wasn't like a super fancy guy. But yeah, it's a, it's a good spot to check out. I get there a week from Wednesday for my bachelor party. Nice. So we got we got a bunch of dinner stacked up that I feel pretty good about. It was a lot of research, a lot of canvassing the people I know who live there. So I'm, but I'm always, you know, always looking. Always keep my ear to the ground about where I should be. So I just wanted to make sure I had that box checked. Nick Underhill, thank you very much, my friend.

Really, really appreciate the time. Again, if you were a Saints fan or you're interested in just the mechanics of how NFL teams work, highly encourage you guys to go get a subscription to New Orleans. Football where Nick is doing a fantastic job covering all things New Orleans. Good luck with everything, man. Appreciate the time. I know you got a busy day ahead. So thanks for taking it out.

Yeah, appreciate you having me. And congrats on the upcoming wedding. Thank you very much. This was the Athletic Football Show.