The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Draft prospect scheme fits with Matt Bowen & cornerback class deep dive with Mike Renner

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

We know most teams tend to draft either for value or position of need. But which player in the 2021 draft class could fit with certain teams because of their unique skillsets or the way they fit into certain schemes? Former NFL player & current ESPN-er Matt Bowen joins Robert Mays to bring you some special fits that could make huge sense on draft day. Then PFF's Mike Renner stops in to dig into the cornerback class & compare it to years past, current players & more.Get exclusive discount access to all of The Athletic's draft coverage at theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Before we get started today, I wanted to mention that Nate, me, and Lindsay and Dan Buegler are going to be doing a live show the night of round one. So that is April 29th. We're going to come to you guys starting the middle of the first round after the top 10 is gone. And we're going to talk about what's already happened.

We're going to react to some of the picks as they go down. So please come join us. that you can find that on YouTube we're going to find it on Twitter we're going to be blasting it out constantly here over the next couple weeks so be on the look out for that very very excited Nate and I are going to be in person in Chicago doing that so really looking forward to that today's show really good one for you guys Mike Reiner from PFF is going to be joining us a little bit later to talk about the top corners in this year's draft we're going to do some cornerback superlatives as a way to dig into that group before we do that though very excited to welcome

my friend multi-year NFL veteran I presence on the ESPN matchup show that is completely essential viewing for any good football fan, Matt Bowen. Matt, how you doing, man? I'm doing great, Robert. How are you? I'm doing awesome. I'm excited. We are getting closer and closer to the draft. I know you guys are doing your first draft special for a matchup relatively soon, right? Yeah, our first one is this Wednesday night, 9-East, on ESPN 2, and then we'll be back during draft week for a second one, which will be that Tuesday night of the draft week. I think around the same time, primetime on ESPN2.

So we're excited about it. You know, we take a different approach there, Robert. We look more at player traits and how they fit in today's NFL schemes, whether our offense or defense, and especially at the quarterback position. But our breakdown pieces are more focused in the traits and what they can be in an NFL scheme passing game, more a split safety defense on that side of the football. So it's fun to do, and I should be back in studio from the first time and, you know, a year and a half. It's exciting.

Yeah. We're doing the same thing. We're doing a live draft show on draft night of round one. And I cannot wait to actually sit down and have somebody next to me and have a conversation about football. But like you mentioned, that's what you guys do on the show. It's projecting these guys through a schematic lens. So when I was just behind the curtain a little bit, about a month ago and I was planning all the draft shows, one of the first ones on my list was scheme fits with Matt Bow.

Like I just knew I wanted to have this conversation with you because I love the show. I've watched it for years. I've communicated that to you. and to Greg and to Sal even. And we had a scheme show earlier this year. In the fall, we went down, you're our favorite offensive and defensive play callers. And we had a great time doing it.

So I definitely wanted to have this conversation with you because I think that it's a really important way to think about these guys. It's a necessary way to understand, all right, how does this actually project beyond what we saw them do in college? How does it fit through a schematic lens? So I just want to talk about that process in general.

So as you're watching these guys and you're thinking about it, through that kind of filter. What are the difficulties of that? Because you're having to do some imagining, I would assume, because what they're doing in college isn't necessarily what they're going to be doing in the NFL. So as you're trying to make these projections, what are the things that you're trying to identify

to give you the best sense of it moving forward? I think you have to start with the traits, right, or the physical tools of the player, and how those traits project, like you just said. I think examples of Justin Fields, a quarterback from Ohio State. He reminds me a lot of Justin Herbert coming out of Oregon in terms of the physical tools, the high-level traits,

in terms of their arm talent, their mobility, the way they can be schemed as runners, their physical element they both bring inside and outside of the pocket. I had to say, okay, how does that project to the NFL, Robert? Well, looked at a heavily scheme passing game. That's what we saw from Herbert last year with the chargers. You know, play action concerts, attack the intermediate windows, get them on the edge with boot.

And when you take your vertical throws down the field, you scheme those shot players over the top. or occupy defenders down the field create third level windows or create scheme one-on-ones outside the numbers. So we got Justin Fields, regardless of the offense he played in in Ohio State. Look, I like the offensive played in Ohio State. I think there are some high-level processing involved in terms of wide receivers, the depth they break at, the conversions they can make within the route stem. And that offense will project more to the NFL in terms of some of the concepts.

But taking those vertical constants from Ohio State, now meshing with more of a scheme than a NFL passing, getting them on her center more, getting on the move more. That's how we try to project for. But eventually, Robert, it still comes back to the trade to the player. So I think that's so important. I had this discussion with one of our guys that match him. And the greatest things for me, we're working at matchup was a graduate course of football. We have former scouts in the building, former coaches at the pro and college level.

I've learned so much. And I have a tendency from coaching at the high school level at IC Catholic is that I look at it through a coaching lens too much. say what can he do in this system? And I've always been not corrected to say, hey, look at the traits first. What can he do? Even if he hasn't played cover two, let's say, for example,

we're talking about defensive back. Does he have the ability to do it? Can he open his hips and get to debt? Does he have good transitions to be to drive top down to football? Does he have enough range to get off the numbers based on what you see? Maybe he played in the post at the college level. Can he do those things within an NFL scheme?

So again, it goes back to focusing on those traits. and how they project. So that was my other question. Do you feel like it can be too limiting sometimes to talk about it in this way? Say, all he fits this or he fits that because of what I've seen him do. Do you think that there are teams that probably don't have enough imagination as they're looking at some of these guys? And do you think that overall we're too quick to say, well, I haven't seen him do that.

So I have doubts about whether he can. I think you answer right there. I think we're too quick. See him we haven't seen him do it enough. And if you can do it once, even if you see it once on film, I mean, he has the ability to do it. Now you're going to have to coach it. That's the next thing about it.

We don't talk about that enough. You have to coach it. I mean, if you have a tight end who's a, you know, a past game target, it isn't a high-end blocker. Can you teach him to be a blocker? Sure, he can. Sure. You know, if you have someone that has the man coverage traits, you know,

the length, the size outside the numbers, the ability to open his hips, track the ball and locate, but there's a certain area of game that needs to be corrected. Can you coach that? Sure. You can. Now, there's certain situations. I was looking at this player the other day.

And obviously I'm an Iowa grad, but I am going to be biased. Davian Nixon from Iowa is a defense attacker. In that situation, Davian Nixon is best as a one-gap penetrator. He's got upfield juice, you know, to create disruption. You don't want to make him a two-gap player in the NFL, right? You don't want to do something like that. If you're a zone team, okay, you don't want heavy movers on the offensive line. That's more of a fit for a gap or a power team.

There are certain things like that. But there's also positions where I think, you know, I don't want to use the term scheme transcendent, but that they can fit in most offenses or most defenses in the NFL. Wide receiver for one. You know, with today's passing game, I don't think you need to be an ultradefined route runner right now. I don't. Yeah.

We have ultra-defined route runners. We study all the time, a guy like a Keenan Allen, first player jumps to mind, Devonte Adams. But with the amount of overs and crosses we see, can you get free from the line of scrimmage and use your speed, right, to attack an open window? There's wide receivers in this draft class that can do that. Running backs. I think they're also critical factors in the running back position.

One, the north-south burst, short area speed is I like to call it. The ability to make people miss whether running through them or running around them, the ability to catch the ball in the backfield. I think running backs have natural traits that are developed starting at the high school level. Those traits don't change. But if you have those three critical factors, you can play and produce and function in most NFL offenses. And quarterback is obviously a little different, right? Robert, quarterback is obviously a little different because how the position has changed so much with the movement concepts,

with the ability to throw off schedule or use your second reaction to build. A lot of the quarterbacks in this class have that, you know, but some still have to be schemed. And look, every quarterback, we get in this discussion too much forever, every quarterback has to be schemed. You don't just go out there and play seven on seven, just not how it works. Every quarterback has to be scheming. A great example is Aaron Rogers in Green Bay. You're the MVP of the National Football League, it plays in a heavily schemed offense with defying throws.

A lot of play action, a lot of pre-step movement, creating matches, creating windows. He can routinely hit those throws in the pocket. But what he gives you off of that is that high-level second reaction ability, the ability to throw from all platform, and the ability to take the one-on-ones wherever he wants to because he can throw with accuracy and location. So all of that is so interesting.

And I think the receiver point is really, it's cool. And we've talked about that a lot. So if you were talking about, let's say just within a Shanahan-based offense, so we're talking, I don't know, six to ten teams now have run some version of it. Would you say your most important trait within that offense now is ability after the catch? So if you're going to be running a lot of drift routes or a lot of just in breaking routes into space, it's less important that you can be a route runner and more important of right. If you look like AJ Brown and you move with him with the ball in your hands,

that now becomes the most important trait. So that's part of what's interesting is not only, or what we're asking of players is changing. But just the types of aspects that you want for specific offenses is changing as certain schemes, as certain offensive and defensive systems become more prevalent around the league. Yeah, I would agree. If you look at this draft class, Robert, there's a group of wide receivers that Greg Cosell and I have called motion movement receivers. You know, receivers that might have to be scheming to get off the line of scrimbers.

That's fine. You can do that. You can do that. You can do that movement. We can do a stack, bunch. there's ways to get guys clean off the line of scrimmage. What they bring to you is that catch and run ability inspects, they have dynamic traits, they have ball carrier vision,

where you can manufacture a scheme touches for them on jet and fly sweeps, reverses, screens, backfield alignments, call them whatever you want in terms of their position. But they are dynamic playmakers within your offense that can be schemed off the line of scrimmage. And then when they get the ball in space, like you're talking about, whether it put glance brought off an RPO, go a deep dig route, which is 12 to 15 yards, that's going to break at.

They can produce after the catch. And what you're also creating there, Robert, is more high percentage throws for your quarterback. And that's the name of the game right now at every level. But we're talking about high school colleges and pros, you want to get high percentage throws for your quarterback and get the ball into the hands of your playmakers. There's a group in this class, you know, really starting with Jalen Wada, Elijah Moore, Cadarius, Tony, Rondale Moore, guys that are electric after the kept that you can scheme all. Looking at all of those ways that teams are being

scheme, first of all, how different would you say just the overall help that offensive coaching staffs are giving their quarterbacks and their receivers now compares to what it was like when you were playing? How much more of a leg up do offensive coaches give their guys in this era? I think there is more of an advantage.

No, I was lucky enough to play in St. Louis, my rookie season with Mike Marston, his offense. And I think that all is a head. You might have a little skewed opinion of it then. Right, but that always was ahead of its time. Sure. In terms of the motion, the movement, the matchups they created, using the running back out of the backfield with Marshall Falk,

and Kurt Warner's ability to throw the anticipation location almost every single time. But it has changed just because personnel has changed. You know, back when I first started, there was a lot of 21 personnel, two running backs, one tight end. You didn't have as many dynamic weapons as a tight end position as obviously you do now. More 20 personnel. I was talking with something the other day. 20 personnel is two backs.

A lot of times shotgun split backs with three wide receivers. That was really coming off the Houston Oilers and that run and shoot offense back in the day. But the game has changed. It's faster and there's much more pre-snap movement and misdirection post-snap in today's NFL that is really taxing the eyes of defenders, creating matches, creating blocking angles for your run game, and also the movement with the quarterback position. Just the movement. I remember, okay, so I went to Iowa, Robert as a quarterback.

And it didn't last long, but I went there. I was taking a seven-step drop from under center and backpedal. That's how our drops were under Coach 8 and Fry. We backpedaled out. So you take all that time to get to the top of the drop. Then you play your foot. Then you got to go through your progressions, which I could do because I just pulled the ball down and run. But anyway, it was so different.

When do you see that now? Oh, never. It's so funny watching the back pedal drops in old tape. It looks so silly. It's like an old-timey boxer. Like, that's how strange it looks compared to what the game looks like. like now. Right. And when I first got in the league, you still had empty formations with quarterback under center, right, and taking the drop from there. It's just the ball is coming out

so much faster now. And the quick game is so much more important too, Robert. That's another thing with RPO. You know, quarterback like Zach Wilson, who can read it out quickly and throw it without fear. And the ball mechanics he has in getting that football out. Look at Aaron Rogers when he throws RPO's. There is no mesh point. That ball's out immediately. Yeah. Either he's counting the numbers or is reading the conflict and running that ball's out immediately. Again, that goes back to we're talking about the wider senior position, getting guys open, balls coming out faster. Well, you still see, and I think this is important, you still see max protection.

You still see scheme vertical throws down the field. We saw it all the time from Tennessee last year, last couple years with Ryan Tanny. You saw it with Justin Herbert. You see it from Kyle Shanahan. You do see it in Green Bay with Aaron Roberts. When they want to max up and take their shots, they still do that. When you, I'm sure some people would say, well, how different could it be? And you pointed out a couple really good examples.

Offensive linemen zone versus gap scheme, things like that. I'm sure there are some people who ask, how different could these schemes be? If you can play in one, can you play in most of them? So I wanted to ask you, when you were bouncing around between a couple different teams, were there gaps in those schemes that you felt really comfortable running one and much less comfortable running another? Even within your position, did you feel like there were drastic changes between certain kinds of defenses in terms of your own comfort level? I do think so.

You know, and I was lucky enough to play in pro-N-Fel schemes that catered more to my ability because I didn't have much. So like when my last year in Buffalo, okay, Perry Field was our defense coordinator. Perry, we used to work on a lovely Smith here in Chicago. Of course. Tampa, too, a lot of Tampa, too, where I could stay on top and drive top down in the football, didn't get exposed. Now, the difference was when Greg Williams, well, Steve Spurter was my first coach in Washington. And when Steve moved on, Joe Gibbs came back. And when Greg Williams is our defense coordinator, we were.

pressure-heavy defense. And there were situations where I had, I used a term cover down because there's a safety. And let's just say this now. It's a safety because we talk about this all the time through the draft process. Safety's do have coverage trends. But the ability to cover down is much different than playing cold busy on third and two to six, right? Okay, it's much different match. So if I had to cover down, it was always off of pressure.

I knew the football had to come out because if it didn't, I was going to get beat. But most of the time, when I was with Greg, I remember our first game we played Tampa. at FedEx Field, and I blitz 15 times, 15. Myself, 15 times. Okay, so Greg Williams' tombstone one day. Matt Bowen blitz 15 times in one game. But Greg knew what I could do and what I couldn't do. So he didn't put me in those positions where I can get stuck in a matchup,

down the field where, you know, I didn't have the high-end traits to compete with some of the NFL wide receiver. So what do you do with a guy like that? You put him in the box versus a run game. He'd play him in cover two. and you blitz them all day because then it takes those coverage responsibilities away. To answer your question in a roundabout way, I was lucky, but there were certain situations. I remember we were playing 49 or since it was 2002 when I was with Green Bay.

We had a really good football team. I thought it was a Super Bowl team. We got knocked out by Michael Vick and the Falcons in the Wildcar round, but we're playing at San Francisco. And there's a little confusion coming out of the huddle. And one of the safeties is supposed to go to TL. Well, I went to T.R. and that's a problem. Okay,

we're still playing with safety quarters when T.O. was in the slot. I'm thinking, what are we going to do here? Essentially man coverage with you on Tara Owens in that moment. Basically what corners is, right?

Because the number two releases vertical, that's your guy. And Garcia got flushed out of the pocket and had to move opposite of me. But I remember thinking, before the snap, we're going to lose this football game because this matchup is not a positive thing at all.

How about a guys not even, not even on your team or in your orbit? Do you remember a couple guys, even in this era or in yours that you saw just in the wrong scheme, that their career fizzled out because they just weren't in the right circumstances. Because I'm sure it does happen. And I just wonder if there's a couple guys that stick out in your mind. I'm not sure if there's a couple guys specifically, Robert,

but you always look at quarterbacks. Okay. I think one of the discussion goes is to look at quarterbacks. This is going to happen this year or two. It happens every year. You know, why do quarterback fail? It's not because of the talent level. You're being drafted, especially at first.

If you're at first round NFL draft pick, you have high-end traits, high in talent. There's no question about it. The system means everything. Obviously, the talent around you means a lot, too. Obviously, protection up front, talent, the skill positions, we understand that. But what are they asking the quarterback to do? You know, what are they asking the quarterback to do pre and post-net? I don't think that's a lot of times why you see quarterbacks busts in the NFL.

One, the supporting castes doesn't match the talent. They have to go again, week in a week out in the NFL. But also, what do they ask to do within the offensive system? Are you playing to their talent? or you're trying to make them something that they're not. I think that's the number one thing of coaching. It is at any level, coach for your players. Okay, don't coach your system.

Systems come and go. You can adapt your system. That's why I brought up Zach Wilson. And we assume Zach Wilson is it go number two to New York Jets. There needs to be RPO's in that system. It needs to be moving in that system. Need to get him to the edge of the pocket to utilize his traits as a thrower and his ability to play off schedule at times.

Those things need to be in your offense. In addition to what he has to do as a pro-quarter because that's never going to change. As much as we talk about these traits, Robert, like I brought up with making throws in the pocket with Aaron Rogers, if you can't make the routine throws and throw it from the pocket, then you are going to be a bust. It's as simple. You have to do those things. You have to check that list first before we get to the high-end traits that can be scheme. But once you get to those traits, if you're not scheming them as a coach, you're not doing your job.

So that's a really interesting point with the coaching, because that was one of my question. When we talk about scheme fit, how much would the scheme be tailored to players in a given year? Like, what percentage do you think was static and what percentage ends up getting molded around the talent in the building? Because that makes scheme fit kind of a fluid concept, right? Because if the scheme can change with the players, then you're going to be able to fit more players within the scheme. I agree with that. And I think that one of the first place you look for is a second guy. You know, if your zone heavy team or a man heavy team.

Everyone wants to play man, Robert. everyone does because man gives you advantage especially in third down situations you know third medium and inside the red zone you want to play man in those situations because you eliminate windows you challenge why ever skewers off the line of screws you disrupt the timing and the flow of the office but you have to have those guys to do that right we understand that you have to draft those guys at the sign as frames you have the dull them within your system and there's the first thing is you want to be a man heavy defense you don't have the talent we've seen it all here because man defense i think is very easy to scheme up the NFL

we talked during the season. Brian Daveo and Buffalo is a prime example. Miami game is a bloodbath. Yeah. How many times that Josh Allen light up man coverage issue? Because they scheme it, right? And man covers, you know, it's not just the ability to play man covers. It's a pre and post snap communication from a secondary perspective.

Be on out of playoff picks and rubs. Be able to play motion pre-snap from two by two to three by one. Now it's three by one bunch. Ball's about to be snapped. Do you have a plan? What is your plan? Are you going to jam the point man? pass off the two guys out of the ball. There's different things you could do there. But you have to

have those players that are highly intelligent, high football intelligence, plus the man traits within your system to do that. If you're a zone defense and you don't have speed at the second level, you've got bad news for it. Right? I've got really bad news for it because NFL quarterbacks will light that up. They'll anticipate the window to put it there every time. You need guys to speed. You need guys with length in the second level that can muddy or close those throwing windows. And you need to post safety. That's one of the hardest things to find right now, Robert is a post safety. If you went through every debt chart in the NFL right now

and said, who are the true, rangy ball hawking post-safeties in the NFL? There's not that many. Jesse Bates, end of list. Yeah, it's a hard position to play. And I think that's why you're now seeing more of a shift to split safety coverage. One, the reason for that is the limit explosive plays on the field. If you play single high against Kansas City, it's going to be a long day. It's going to be a long day.

This is how it is, because Andy Reid will scheme up, cover three. all day long. And it used to be cover three. That was the thing. Remember, because of the Seattle Seahawks defenses. That was the personnel that fit in that scheme. Not many teams have that ability that Seattle did. Now you're seeing more quarters, more cover two, and cover six, which is quarter quarter half. You can eliminate verticals, stay on top of those verticals down the field. And also with your quarter safety, you can drive and close the middle of the field, all those endbreakers and crossers and overs we were just talking about. Because it is the post safety, fine. Well, and those corners, those crossers and all of those deep middle routes came into vogue in part because teams

were playing cover three with that post safety and that attacks them. So then the reaction to that is more split safety coverages. And now what's the reaction to that going to be? That's the whole, that's why this is fun because all of it, the cycle creates one another. So I think that's why it's really, really interesting to look at. I think a really good example of what you're talking about with the man versus zone is what the Giants did this year, right? They come in, Patrick Graham comes from a very defined background. That's a lot of cover one, a lot of press man with the Patriots first and then with the Dolphins.

Comes to New York, looks around and goes, well, I'm not sure that's going to work. Then they played a lot of zone, and I think their defense was better off for it. But that's the question, do you have a coaching staff that's going to show that flexibility and say, we're going to do what's best for our players, not what's best for us? How many horror stories have you heard? I've heard plenty. So I'm sure you've heard even more about being in an offensive meeting. and somebody says, well, we're going to do this because this is the way that Bill Walsh did it,

and that's just how it's going to go. I just think there's probably less of that now. And I think that that's why, especially on offense, there are just more success stories and more types of players that are succeeding in part because that flexibility and open-mindedness exists in a way it might not have 15 years ago. No, I agree with that. I agree 100%. And a team that sticks out, we're talking about that as a Dallas Cowboys in this draft.

Now, you look at mock drafts and we know mock drafts are not the truth. Patrick Stattan from the University of Alabama, I think it's the number one corner in this class. If he goes to Dallas, what is Dan Quinn going to do? Are they going to be cover three heavy with the top press man corner? They just drafted as number 10 overall pick. Are they going to become, okay, we have a young corner with high-end traits, explosive traits, really, that's a position.

Transition speed, recovery speed, short area speed can make plays in the football. We want to put him in more man-covered situations. Doesn't mean he can't play cover three because he will have to. Every defense plays split safety, single high now in terms of the mix of their coverages. But when you have a player like that, are you going to adapt your seat? When you draft a player with that high level of talent who has those traits, are you going to say, look, we can be a little bit more man heavy now. And that's what's interesting about this because look at the zone teams from last year,

if they do target man defenders in the secondary, how are they going to change to accommodate that and really to maximize that talent? If you're playing cover three and you're playing that just if it's match cover three or whatever, would you be comfortable telling your corners that they can play a style that fits them? If you were still playing cover three, but he was a little bit tighter to the receiver on the outside. If he was playing a little bit more physically, would you be comfortable doing that as a defensive coordinator? Because I know there are certain examples like the bearers under Fangio, I think are really interesting. You had Fuller and Mukamara playing the same coverage, but they played it in different ways because Prince was more comfortable as a press guy where Fuller likes playing. playing off. So do you think that that's dangerous as a defensive play call or do you think that's a

smart way to allow your guys to play in ways that they find comfortable? No, I think it's the right way to do it. Whether you're talking about technique or technique within the scheme, I think that's about coaching. You give example, just the high school level I coach. You know, there's two styles of coming out of your break. There's a bike when you're pedaling fast like you're riding a bike. It's called a T-step when you plant, you know, your back foot and drive downhill. And I don't have a way that I say you have to do it. I always tell my players the high school level, do what makes you feel comfortable.

Do it allows you to play fast. If you want to be more snugged up to wide receivers here to the line of scurry because you do feel that he can't challenge you vertically, now you can sit in the break and do it. I think you have to allow that stuff within reason, right? Within reason. Of course.

So you still play within the scheme. But yes, you have to. There's no perfect way to play this game. There's no perfect way to coach this game. What you have to do is listen to your players. As I always tell, the young kids I coach. I don't get to play in practice. You get to play. I just get to watch. So you're going to be in those game situations. And when you get into a situation,

when you have a chance to create out of the ball production, do what feels more comfortable, do what allows you to get from point A to point B with speed. So I agree with what you're saying. There are different ways to play coverages. And you have to allow that, in my opinion, especially when you have high-end talent. Remember thing about high-end talent, Robert, is sometimes you have to think outside the box that they can do. do things. They have what I call uncoachable traits, right? Because they are naturally gifted, especially when we're talking about skill positions. They are naturally gifted. Don't try to overcoach them. If they want to play outside of structure a little bit, you allow that.

Same with quarterbacks. If they want to play outside of structure a little bit, you allow that at time because they have things you can't coach. You can't take a young player and say, hey, play like Patrick Mahomes. What are we doing? You can't do that, right? You can't. So there's a, there's a level of coaching involved that at times you have to take a step back. let the player be themselves within the scheme, but I understand that they might take more risks or they might use a different technique because they can't. So let's get into some specific guys from this class.

I want to run down a couple of specific positions. But before that, just in a general level, is there anybody that jumps out to you immediately where as soon as you watch them in any position, you already saw them in the uniform? Like one or two guys that just immediately I see them on this team in this scheme right now. There's a couple wide receivers.

I did a wide receiver fits beast. a couple weeks back at ESPN. One of them is, well, there's two that fit here. And I don't know which one it is, but Rashad Bateman and Terrace Marshall in Baltimore. Okay, obviously there's a need there in Baltimore for a boundary X receiver. But the great thing about Terrace Marshall and Rashad Bateman is I think they can be deployed or utilized like Allen Robinson or Michael Thomas,

because they can play inside in the slot. Because you match up advantages versus man in zone inside. They both have the ability to run after the kit. They can both stretch the field vertically. and you can scheme them also on deep end breakers. We know Baltimore, it's more vertical-based pass game off-flash with Lamar Jackson. Look at those two receivers that need at that position, too, the need to develop a young receiver within that system,

and to grow or develop that entire passing game, especially when they get to a postseason stage. Those are two to stand out right there. Another player I keep thinking about Robert is running back, Trey Zimmer from Ohio State. I look at him as a professional runner. He's got contact balance. He's got north-south juice.

He can make you miss in the open field. he's got enough top end speed we can create explosive plays. And the team I keep thinking about, obviously because of a need there, but also the offensive structure is the Atlanta Falcons. It's going to be a run heavy offense

with play action. We understand that. And I think of Trey Sermin as a guy can be a volume carrier, kid ball carrier in the pros. And both zoning gaps are really zone schemes when he can get to the edge of the formation, bounce the ball outside,

or cut it back inside. Staying with Atlanta is Trey Lance, right? Yeah. I keep coming back. So we talk about it all the time on this show. It almost makes too much sense. I can see Traylanson in that system for sure because of the scheme, Broughttree.

You know, the vertical shot plays down the field. We sell that consistently on a state in North Dakota State, his ability to plan or center, the boot concepts in North Dakota State. Plus, he gives you an added element because of his dual threat ability. He's a physical ball carrier. And that's more than just running zone rate. I mean, you're running quarterback power, quarterback counter, quarterback lead down in a low red zone.

But that's a fit that kind of jumps out and says, this makes a lot of sense. The other one I'll say it, is I believe it, is Justin Fields with Kyle Shanahan. What about it? What aspects to his game do you just think fit? Well, I think one that elevates the entire offense. Okay, I think it gives that offense more playmaking ability.

It's one thing to say we can have a quarterback who can throw with anticipation location and Kyle's heavily skiing passing him. We understand that. But with Justin Fields, I think you get that added element, the quarterback run game. I think he brings such a physical element to the football field, both inside and outside the pocket.

We're going to break down Justin Fields in the matchup show. I'm going to show a play versus Indiana. A good lineback creates interior pressure on him, but he's so strong in his lower body that he can break through arm tackles in the pocket. Then he gives you that second reaction to the body, both as a runner and a thrower. But again, it's the high-level traits.

Think of Kyle Shanahan, the scheme shot plays they take down the field. The intermediate throws. the glance for us off RPO's, the shallows are going to scheme up for him, more high percentage throws with the high-end talent. We'll play like Justin Fields, operating both inside and outside of the pocket. And I'll tell you this, you watched Ohio State film. There was no question that Justin Fields can process the entire field. Now, will you have to be quicker?

Yes, I can say that about Trevor Lawrence, too. Say that about Zach Wilson, too. There's going to be a developmental stage for these young quarterbacks in terms of adapting the NFL speed, understanding that college windows, The matter of you play in the SEC, the Big Ten, they are smaller. The ball needs to come out quicker and on time. I need to see it fast. That comes with reps.

Going back to our previous discussion, Robert, what I can't coach with Justin Fields is the size, the arm talent, the mobility, the physical element he brings to the pocket, go to the playoffs schedule or second reaction. I can't coach that. Those are natural high-end traits he has. And I love to see it. This is me personally.

I love to see it in a very defined, schemed offense. like how Shannon has in San Francisco. It's so funny. Well, we never saw him get rid of the ball quickly and, you know, those little time, like RPO's and quick play actions. It's like, that's the easy stuff. Anybody can do the easy stuff if you scheme it up for them

and you present those throws to them. It's the hard stuff that you have to worry about and he's somebody that consistently does the hard stuff. So it's almost as if we're thinking about this backwards when the order of operations and how you should be talking about it. So you hit quarterback, receiver, running back. Safety is a position we haven't really talked about in the show at all. just because the class compared to other positions is a little bit on the lower end.

I wanted to ask you, is there a safety or two that you think this is a scheme fit on this team or in this type of defense that just makes sense to me. Richard Graham from Central Florida is very interesting. It doesn't have elite traits at the position. You can see them on tape. He's a former two-star recruit. He's a football player, Robert. He's a guy I'd like to coach.

He can play split safety, quarters, cover two. Now, does he have elite range in the post? No, but he can spin back to the post. He can spin downhill. He's got better covered down ability than I anticipated when he turned on the film. Very patient, keeps his shoulder square. It's got enough short area juice there to close in the football. And again, I use the term physical element a lot, but I think it matters.

He brings a physical element to the run get. He's a willing tackle. He's a physical tackle wrap up and drive his legs. That wins in the NFL. That wins. You look at, like we talk about, Chicago, Denver, the L.A. Ram is this past season. The L.A. charges this upcoming season with Brandon's stay. those split safety heavy defenses that want safety that can drive top down to the football,

great angles of the ball, like we discussed earlier, take away end breakers and crossers, but also that ability to play as an overhank. That's what the league's going to is the safety need to be able to play as an overhanging defender and base in subpackage when you drop to the curler hook, exploding the ball with speed, be a physical striker on contact, and create disruption at the second level as well. Richie Grant's one of those guys. I'm going to break down Andre Sisko on the show from Syracuse.

Now, he's coming off a knee injury, but he does have post range. He's got split field range as well. But you have to look at the on the ball production. He had 13 career interceptions in college, and I think around 22, 24 games, you know, so a smaller sample size, but a lot of high-end ball production. He's got excellent ranks, and that's something I want in my defense and want in my seconder. We have another name, Elijah Molden from Washington. He's listed as a corner.

I think he's more of that, you know, that slot safety now, Robert, that we see in the NFL when you play three safety sub packages and nickel or dime because they can do so many different things. And number one thing with him is the sense of urgency he plays. That's the first thing I look for, whether coaching or watching tape, are you urgent? Do you play fast? Are you willing to strike people on contact? Do you create disruption on the ball? Can I utilize you in different ways?

I think molding can be that slot safety. That you can blitz off the edge. It can play in space. They can drive top down on the football. but also a very instinctual player because I don't know what he ran the 40 and these 40 times this year a while anyway, so I don't really

care. I ran a 4-4-3 according to the unofficial times. I don't really care what he runs to the 40. I could see that he plays fast on take. Those are just a couple guys, but it is a good safety class. With the direction of the league is going, Robert, there's a fit for guys. A guy late in the draft,

tomorrow Hamlet from Pitt. Okay, DeMar Hamlet's probably going to be a day three prospect. He played split safety coverage at Pitt. We understand that. He can play top-down. A lot of ball production in college. Very physical and willing tackler when he's running the outlets. It's going to give you immediate upgrade on your coverage units on special teams.

There's guys that are going to be drafted on day two and day three, especially at the safety position. They can play a long time in this lead because of the direction, because of the schemes we're seeing right now. I think the Jordan Fullers of this class, whoever they might be, those types of guys. Do you think because of those little tiny nuance, and how difficult it is to unearth who might be good and who might not be just because it's not as evident, because the physical traits aren't as important. Do you think it's become the most difficult position to evaluate on defense over the last few years as the league has shifted a little bit? I think it's difficult because it's hard to find safeties who can truly cover a slot receiver.

That's why your safety. Safeties usually are longer in terms of their lengther, you know, and they're usually a little bit more tight hit. They have functional hip typeness. That's why you're playing safety instead of corner. I think it is a hard position to evaluate because of one, like we talked about earlier. If you're going to play a single high system, it's hard to find someone with that elite post-range, eye discipline, and high football intelligence that can consistently get a break in the ball and close those seams.

But if you see him, you can see him. That's evident. That's not hard to, you don't have to dig to find that guy. You can watch that guy instantly and be like he has the range to do it. but because that's become not as prevalent, it almost feels like you have to dig more into the nuances of guys that can play the position because those high-end physical traits

are the things that are obvious. Right, and you also want to find guys who have versatility for your sub packages, right? Yep. What do they do in sub, are they just a deep half to fit? Right? Or do they have forward ability? I mean, when I use the term forward ability,

Robert, I mean, someone who's not going to be, you know, matching to a corner route from the scene, you know, and backpedaling and opening and showing the, the flexibility in their hips to stay on top of the road. Someone who plays downhill. Okay, because those guys have value now, too, because you can use your safeties as almost dying linebackers now, right? They can beat that overhang defender.

They can drop down or spin down from a two-deep alignment and play the hook zone. Different things they can do that allows them to use that forward ability because that's when they're at your best. And they don't have to cover deep because that gets them in trouble. And that's one of the other things I think that makes it difficult to evaluate is that now with so many more three safety looks and so many more different roles, ascribe to that position, there almost is more versatility

and you have to look for different things. It's just so interesting how the position is shifted and how that necessitates a change in the way that we evaluate it and the way that you scout it. I just think that those little tiny shifts over time are just so fun. And it's just the way the game's kind of alive in this way that is why we get excited talking about it.

So a couple more spots I wanted to hit. Is there a corner that jumped out to you, either a team or a system that you just think, perfectly fits. J.C. Horn, Arizona, number 16. J.C. Horn, I think right now would probably be considered a top 15 grade, okay, in that area.

Because of the man coverage traits, he's got a long frame. He's ultra-competitive on tape. When he turned on the tape, he's ultra-competitive. Can play inside. Watch Kyle Piss. I watched him throw Kyle Piss on his ass earlier today. It was pretty funny. He was a great rep versus Kyle Pipsman. Kyle Pitch beats him on a back show the fade ball. That is,

we're going to show that on the show. That's what you want to see. It's best versus best, right? Yeah. Best versus best. And J.C. Horn, I think, projects very well in a man-heavy system. That's what you have in Arizona. Very high man-coverage rate last year. Also ranked top five in pressure last year in terms of blitz rate.

So what are you doing there? You're trying to add man-coverage offenders who can play single high cover one. Can also play blitz man technique. That's what J.C. Horn gets you in the competitive traits. You see it when he has to make a play in the football as well, especially inside the Redsend. There's a couple of clips. if you watch the Auburn take from last year, when he's matched up on a slot fade,

he will elevate and play the football at the highest point. He's an ultra-competitive tour. I think he needs to be a stronger tackler. But here's the thing, Robert, as long as you're a willing tackler, you can work with that. You can teach more technique. You can teach them better angles

to cut off the ball on the edge. You can teach them how to use their hands to get off stock blocks and attack the outside die pad and running guy. You can teach him that things. As long as the willingness is there to want to do it, I'm fine with that as a opportunity.

And you see that with J.C. Horn. He is a willing to tackle. I want to say he had three pass breakups inside the 10-yard line in that Auburn game. He did. Several different times he's getting his head around and getting his hands on the ball.

He's fun. We're going to talk about corners a little bit later on the show with Mike Renner and I want to dig into some of it. But would you say, based on the conversation we were having earlier, about scheming guys open,

about all of the motion, about the stacks and bunches, do you think that press man traits are less important now because there are fewer press man opportunities based on alignment and the way that offenses are playing? No, I do. I think they're important when you're talking about a backside X receiver.

Okay. You're going to match up to a D.K. Metcalfe. You know, he's a lot of times plays the backside X. What I mean by that is his trips to one side of the field, usually to the field and into the boundary off the hash mark, we call it the, you know, the boundary X receiver. Those are going to be true press situations inside the plus 20 yard line. In addition to having the press man ability, you can be able to motor or or a mere, I call it, be able to play in space when someone gets a free release off a pick

or a rug or out of those bunch of stack sets. You need to be able to do that, the short area speed, the close of the hip of the wide receiver, and the ability to undercut those crossers. How many times have we seen that a couple of years ago from Stefan Gilmore in New England when he had to work all over traffic and then undercut, make a play on the football? So I still think press man, everyone would love to have it, but you can't just solely be a pressman court. You're not going to play a press man every snap.

They're going to scheme you too if you're a high-level press man court. They're going to want to get their guys free off the line of scrimmage. And you are going to play some too deep. You're going to have to be able to jam playing the flat, tackle the run game. The third thing that's involved with that position, but still having those traits, and they're hard to find. If you have a good one, it does give you a defensive matchup advantage when you can play either a backside ex-receiver or line up to someone in a pressure situation, a high-level game situation, get your hands on it. It's interesting because I don't know nearly as much as people who, understand the nuances of the position. But when

the J.C. Horn to me is a good example where in my mind, my first thought would be, if you can play press man, you can play anything. But if you rely on that physicality and you rely on bullying people around you, you don't have that secondary movement ability to run with guys or to turn and everything else, that's

man coverage. It's just not press man coverage. And I think that there is a little bit of a gap there that before I had some conversation with some defensive coaches, I wouldn't have really understood. My thought would be, press man, that's it. If you can do that, you can do everything. But there are tiny little differences and gaps between them that I think are necessary now as we talk about more and more teams scheming guys into space.

Right. And off-man coverage is extremely tough. You know, a line of usually around seven yards. You're going to read through this three steps. So one, two, three of the ball is coming out in your position because you have that cushion already to drive top down. Then you have to pedal. You have to pedal. Show the ability to open and maintain or stay in phase with a wide receiver.

And outside of the three-step game, every route breaks between 12 and 15 yards. So that's that sweet spot you know in your head where you're going to have to transition. And it is hard to do that. There's a lot of high-cut corners that have a little pause when they come out of that transition because there's longer, taller corners. That's expected. You understand that. But you're talking about the two top guys, press man corners.

I think they are playing better or higher level in terms of horn and certain at the line of scrimmage. than they are as off manned course. Awesome. That's all I got. I sincerely appreciate it. This is a fantastic conversation as it always is with you. I always love chatting with you about this stuff.

Please, guys, go check out all the stuff they're going to be doing on the matchup show over the next two weeks on ESPN. It is invaluable work. I watch it every single week during the season, even if it requires being DVR, which is a conversation you and I have had many times. But now it's in prime time,

so you don't have to worry about that. You guys should check it out. Matt Bowen, thank you very much for the time, my friend. We will talk again very soon. All right, Robert. Thank you. All right, I'm thrilled now to welcome my buddy, PFF's lead NFL draft analyst. Very fancy title, Mike, how are you doing, man?

I'm doing great, Robert. I appreciate you having me on, buddy. Of course. I could not imagine going through an entire draft cycle and not chatting with you about something. We landed on the cornerbacks. We've gone through a couple specific positions with Nate so far. We talked about the edge rushers last week of Ben Soak. I'm not going to do every position, but especially with this group,

It seems strange to not dig into the corners. You know, there are certain drafts where you're not going to have a top 10 corner. There aren't that many high-profile guys at the position. I mean, sometimes you have the one scattered guy like Akuta and then after that it's not that exciting. This group, though, there are a couple players that could be top 10 picks, could be top 15 picks, some really interesting discussion points about others, whether it's injuries and what you can expect from guys, everything else.

So in order to fully form our draft coverage here, I felt like we needed to talk about this group. And it's one that I know you find particularly intriguing just based on how many different guys and their strengths and weaknesses are heard you talk about it. It just seems like a group we're digging into. Yeah. And I always love scouting cornerbacks because of kind of what you mentioned there, that it's like there's one like scheme matters. It's one of the most like describing who these guys are and what their strengths and weaknesses are actually like matters at the next level because the guy can suck in one scheme but be an impact player in a completely different one. And so it's a position that you kind of got to get right and get the fit right or else you're not like that guy might not succeed at his recommended or at his destination.

Obviously, you talked about Akuta. He goes to a pure man heavy scheme with the Detroit Lions and kind of, you know, has some bumpy roads there year one after everyone's pumping him up as this, you know, elite elite sort of prospect. So I do think it's a position that you really have to dig into, really have to get a feel for all what these guys bring to the table before. before you can really say, you know, oh, this is cornerback one, this cornerback two, that sort of thing. How long have you done this full time? How many years have you been going through every guy in the class? This is my second draft of really the full draft cycle doing that. So yeah. Okay, I was going to ask you, how of your opinions on what you're looking for in corners change, but you haven't been doing it that long. So they might not have changed that much.

Well, we had, so I have been doing draft coverage, but in a limited sort of fashion for the last six years. So it definitely has changed in that the size and physicality matters. Like the guys who are the shorter undersized. There's a reason teams have these height cutoffs, size cutoffs, length cutoffs for cornerback positions because it's just very easy to, once you get to the NFL level, to look like a different player when the wide receivers you're going up against they're all 20 pounds bigger than the guys you were seeing in college. It's funny. We had this exact conversation with Nate last week on the show. And that, but that position is what we threw out, because you have a couple different guys, you know, Sequence Golson was somebody we talked about,

and there were a couple others where it's like, Gritty Williams is a little bit undersized. You'd think coverage skills and movement skills and everything else would be first and foremost, the most important thing for corners. But if you don't have that physicality, you can look like a completely different guy. So I think that's a, it's a really good thing to point out. I also, we've gone through and ranked some of these positions on some of the other shows. But like you said, because it's different flavors at this spot, I didn't want to do that. I kind of wanted to do some superlatives.

Just throw out a few categories, and then you can give me your pick, and we can use that as a way to dig into these guys a little bit. So first and foremost, your safest bet, your guy that if you're picking him, whether it's in the first round or wherever, you know essentially what you're going to get. This is the guy you'll be able to rely on

in some form for the next eight to ten years. To me, it's patched to his hand. And that's why he's top. cornerback on our board. You've seen three years of him as a starter in an Alabama defense that's obviously a Nick Staven coach similar to what you can expect to see him do at the NFL level, a ton of press on his tape against good high level competition. He may not be everything you want at the position, but I think the body of work, the physical tools are enough to where this guy's going to be a good quarterback at the NFL level. And obviously the bloodlines of his dad being Patrick

Stanton. Like he's going to be a solid quarterback. Is he going to be really? Richard Sherman. Is he going to be General Alexander? I don't think so. I don't think he's that level, but I think you're getting just a very quality cornerback who's somewhat scheme independent, obviously probably lean him more towards press man sort of team. But I don't think he has to go to that sort of scheme to be productive. I just think he's a very smart and talented football player that the safest bet in this class. He looks like a robot when he plays. And I say that in a good way. He's like a cornerback a robot. It's just how

fundamentally sound he is, the technique he plays with all of the time, how calm he plays. There's some guys that when they play a lot of press man, they look like they're playing a lot of press man. They look like they're in a hurry. There's an urgency to the way that they play. They really want to assert the physicality, all of that. He doesn't

feel the need to play like that, if that makes sense. And I think that's why he's impressive. That's why there aren't a lot of mistakes on the tape. When you say that you're not sure if he can be a Jair-Alexander type, where are the gaps to you? Where are those tiny little edges that you feel like he might not have?

He's not particularly twitchy. Like his closing bursts, you saw guys get steps on him, like Tennessee's Josh Palmer, got like a step on him and then trying to make that up down the football field. You didn't really see that ability on tape. The hips aren't quite there,

like an off coverage, zone coverage, his ability to flip and turn and the sort of breaks on the football, just not at that elite, that high level of, like I said, the Twitch just isn't quite there to where Gianno Alexander can go any direction at any particular time in a blink of an eye. Like Richard Sherman is 6'3 and just dominates guys physically with that length.

I don't think we saw either of those things necessarily from Sir Tan. Like you said, super patient and super his game will translate to the NFL because he's not overly physical, taking advantage of college's lack of legal contact. He is playing press man like you'd have to in the NFL, but I still don't think he's, He's at that level of physical, even when he wants to get physical, to be able to play like Richard Sherman. So I just, I'm not sure you're getting that super high end, but I think you're getting, like I said, quality of the safest fitness class.

Were you surprised at how well he tested? And you say that he gets guys run away from him a little bit. If he doesn't have that twitchiness. I mean, you look at his testing numbers and they're out of this world, especially for a guy his size. So do you feel like there's a little bit of a disconnect there? I was. Now, he didn't do the cone or shuttle, right?

Like he just did the lunyer one. Yeah, it's just the stuff where you know he's going to look good. So I would be curious to see what he would have looked like in those. And it's always like, oh, you didn't do those drills. Oh, I had a hammie come up halfway through like everyone. Yeah, it's like a little stuff. After you posted your 4-4-340s when the hammie came up. I still was a little surprised.

I would have pegged him as more of like a low 4-5s guy, which maybe that's a combine 4-5, a pro day 4-4-5. That probably makes sense. All right. So that was the safest bet. Who do you think is the biggest risk reward consideration here? The guy that might have a really high upside, but also there's a really low, low side. there's kind of two guys that come to mind one for actual on-field one for off-field.

I was Caleb Farley, the on-field is electric. He would have been cornerback one for us here at PFF if just he just had back surgery. And it was a second back surgery with the same injury, a microdiscopomy, which is breaking your back and like having those microdiscectomies doesn't heal. I was talking to my dad's North Bay Surgeon and he's just like, that's just going to be an issue your entire life once you have a surgery. like that. There's no getting back to 100% from that. That's just going to be something that could pop up at a moment's notice any given time over the next four years. And he said, you know, over half of

people with back surgery have back surgery again within the next four years. And that's just, it doesn't get better. That's one of those spots that it's just going to be progressively worse. Yes. And so you're going to draft that guy in the first round when he's more likely than not going to have another back surgery in the next four years. And especially at a position where you're tackling, you know, maybe offensively you can get away with it if you're a receipt. you're not getting hit more than a few times a game. This guy's got to stick his nose in it four or five times. And like, that's a big part of the game.

So that's worrisome. And the other one to me is Kelvin Joseph from Kentucky just because his tape really is a roller coaster. Like physical tools wise, you think he ran the high four twos or low four threes. You see breaks on his tape that are just from standstill, him getting up to full speed, like in a blink of an eye, but really raw. obviously had some rumored drug issues why he left LSU after his freshman year transferred to Kentucky in the first place. So that guy is just a very boomer bust fits that bill entirely from what we've seen

from him already on time. Why do you like Farley more than Sertan independent of the health issues just in terms of the on-field stuff? So he is 6-2-207 and maybe his top speed is the fastest I think of any of these cornerbacks in the class. Watching him move at 6-2-207 is fucking bonkers. There was a play against Miami in 2019 where he spun around back to the post and had a PBU. And just like those movement skills, beyond even the speed for somebody that's that big is crazy.

Like he moves so incredibly well in all facets of the game, especially for somebody that size. It's not Patrick Peterson, but it's about as close as you'll see to a Patrick Peterson. Patrick Peterson's in his own stratosphere in terms of what he can do physically. but that's the kind of athlete we're dealing with just in terms of pure high-end athleticism that father brings the table. And then ball skills, like he locates the ball really well then when he is down the field is not getting lost and that sort of thing. So didn't play a ton of press man on his tape at Virginia Tech.

But when he did, I thought you saw a guy who just any scheme he really could have executed at the NFL level or could execute at the NFL level. You just need to stay healthy. Do you guys, I'm not sure what sort of insight you'd have into this when I was watching some of him today. He's playing press on the line of scrimmage, but he's not jamming guys all the time. So he's not using his hand. Yeah. So in terms of, but it's not, he's almost not, he's not bailing out instantly. It's almost like he's mirroring a guy off the line just not jamming him at all. So do you know if that's just not how they coach it or he's not comfortable doing that? Have you guys talked to

anybody about that? We probably should have asked him that. But we also like, you barely saw him, even a, athel, lined up getting Athelian scrimmage in general. Like that, that was a rare to see him even at the line. So it may have just been comfortability for a guy like that. If you're only doing it a handful of times to really go up there and press, maybe probably a little worried about getting just toast at the line if you're not used to that. Yeah, it was interesting watching it

because it was strange to reconcile because you're watching him stand there, but his hands are at his waist. It's like, why is he doing this? So it's interesting because his ability to mirror guys is impressive, but he's, it's, other guys don't have that. That's what we're talking about. If you have one guy that's playing impress and really

using his hands a lot, pushing people around, and one guy who's comfortable mirroring somebody all the way down the field, it's almost like you're watching two different things. It's hard to compare those two guys. So in that press man conversation, is there somebody in this group that you think that's the best press man corner? I just think that is his strongest trait. If we put him in that scheme, he's going to be fine.

Yeah, this has to be, it's got to be J.C. Horn, the South Carolina cornerback. He's, what, 6-1, a little over 200. That's what he does on tape at South Carolina. When he's not doing that, it's an issue. Like, that's, if you're drafting him and not putting him in press man, or even just press in general, you're wasting by far and away his biggest strength. He is just even, not only just like physical wise, the ability and strength to do it he has, but it's also a mentality thing with him.

Like the way he attacks guys is what you want and what succeeds at the NFL level. He's not going up there and just mirror him. He's going up there and he's getting a hand on you and he's going to keep his hands on you and he's going to try to take you off the football field before you can even get involved in the route. So that's sometimes to his own detriment. Oh, yeah. I mean, he got five penalties in like six games this past year. And again, like we mentioned, college doesn't have legal contact. So those penalties are like real deal. You're actually doing some bad things on tape there to get five penalties. If he plays like he did this past year in the NFL next year, he's going to be Brandon Browner. Like he's going to get flagged 20 plus times. So obviously you're going to have to coach a little bit out of them, change the style up a little bit. But I think it's easier to reel a guy in than try to get a guy to play the way he does. Absolutely. I think it's, you watch it, and there were two plays that stick out to me, one from the Florida game, one from the Auburn game. He gets flagged on a backside slant in the Florida game when he's all over the guy with his outside hand.

And then in the Auburn game, exact same alignment, exact same route. And he plays it well when he gets a PBU. It's like the little tiny gaps between what is okay and what is not. If he can somehow live in that area, it's going to be great. Are you a little bit concerned about how scattered he can look when he's not getting his hands on somebody? because there's less fluidity when I watch. And again, I don't know exactly what I'm watching. But to me, when you watch him, he doesn't look nearly as comfortable or nearly as patient or as calm when he's not getting his hands on people as a guy like Sartan might.

No, I mean, that is, like I said, if you're drafting him to play anything other than press, you're, you're doing, he's not going to look like the guy. He looks like a different cornerback altogether. And I think he's another guy who didn't do, he didn't do the shuttle or the cone at his pro day. He did the, you know, the 40, the vertical. broad and then just like doesn't do the shuttle or coat.

He's not particularly fluid, but you're going to be able to get your hands on guys. Or if you're putting him in that situation, he's going to do well enough to get his hands on guys at the line of scrimmage that he might be a little up and down at the beginning of his career, but like he has the physical tools to live in that sort of area where that's your bread and butter and that's what you do. Do you feel like him and Kyle Pitts matchup is one of the more fun back and forth? I know there's only a couple snaps, but in terms of top end guys, in this draft. I'm sure that those few plays were one of the highlights of all the stuff

you got to dig into over the last few months. It was great. You got to see him against Pitts, even though he hopped it out like midseason. You got to see him against Pitts. You got to see him against Seth Williams of Auburn where he just ate Seth Williams lunch. And then you got to see him against Elijah Moore, well, miss. Like they dropped him down in the slot because Elijah was killing him early in the game. And they're like, okay, you know, we got to do something else because those guys usually played him in Mukwama, where usually they're outside guys. And then they dropped him down the slot. And so you got to see him actually go. go, you know, press me in the slot a good deal on that one and more actually kind of got him a few

times. That was a little worrisome. But yeah, he had some fun back and forth matchups. And he followed Williams into the slot, too, against Auburn, a couple different times I saw. Yeah, I think he just tracked Williams in that whole game. Yeah. So that was fun. I mean, it's cool to see that because there are some guys, I know Farley stayed on one side of the field. I want to say Sir Tan did too, right? Serjan would drop to the slot on third downs, I think it's. Okay. All right. I was always just thinking about watching him at the top of my screen all of the time on the last. side.

But it seemed like horn moves around and that's just one of those things. If you can see a guy do that, it's just easier project. Even if we think Farley in the right situation, could when you haven't seen him do it, then there is some mystery there. So these are all the top guys, obviously. Is there somebody a little bit off the radar, whether it's a second round, third round guy that you just think could come in day one, be a reliable starter that you like?

Now, after last year's cornerback class, I can't predict anyone to be a reliable starter coming in. Like how many were that they were even close to reliable starters coming in? Like I think leguriously the chief's corner was like the only one who did not just get torched at some point in time over the course of his rookie season. So I'm not going to predict anyone maybe year one. But there's some guys I like, I guess a little later on in draft class. The first one is Benjamin St. Juice from Minnesota.

He's six foot three, like two hundred five pounds, I want to say. And he ran a six, six three count. Those are some impressive numbers. for a tall cornerback. You just don't see tall cornerbacks with feet quite like him. Now he's not fast, but you're in 4-5-5 as pro-day. But I think, you know, in a, you know, whether the Seattle cover three or kind of a scheme that allows you to play up and down more so than really side to side or really have to track

across the field, I think he can be a weapon because that length and that size does not come around often in that feat. And he's still kind of relatively new to high-level football. I think he's from Canada. It's only played a couple of years at Minnesota. And so he went to the senior ball and actually looked really good in the one-on-ones, just straight playing man coverage there throughout that week of practice. So I'm big fan of his game.

And then the other guy I'll mention here is UCF's Tay Gowan. He's only played one year of college football. He started off in Miami, Ohio, ended up transferring to UCF. Plays in 2019 allows a 20-of-50 target. It's only 40% completion percentage, really kind of locks down his side of the the field and UCF plays a ton of press, a ton of man coverage there. He's six foot one, 195 pounds with legit speed. He was running with Simi Fahoko, the big Stanford wide receiver, who's about as tough in the vertical tree as you'll see in college football with like four

four speed at 220. And he's running right on his hip with him in that game against Stanford. But then opts out this past season. You got to see one year of him against somewhat low level college football tape. And so it's tough to really know what you're getting with him. But I just don't think, those two guys I mentioned because again size matters, height matters, length matters. Those guys have it. And you just don't see feet like those guys have taller cornerbacks. It doesn't come around every day. So I think those are the two guys I'd say with their sort of combinations of that are

guys I'd be targeted on on day three for sure. So we talked with Matt Bowen before you came on about scheme fits at every position. I was wanting to ask you just in relation to that, are there a couple guys in this group that you just see them in the uniform? It's like, this makes sense to me, this marriage, if I want to. wanted to put these together. I'm going to go Homer here. And it's the Packers, the new scheme, obviously bringing over from the Rams, the Brennan Staley, the way they play their kind of off zone heavy defense. And it's Asante Samuel Jr. Florida State cornerback to that scheme. I just

think anywhere Assante Samuel can play off and go through, see, through the receiver to the quarterback and to the ball is a scheme I want him in, I think. And that's obviously what the Rams do. And that's like he is exceptional at knowing, you know, breaking on balls underneath them in terms of just knowing when to take those chances and when not to and just the speed with which he can get there. So that's a scheme I would love to see him in. So I guess that would be either their chargers now or the Rams just if he goes to one of those, I would love that. Do you feel like watching the Rams last year, knowing the Packers are probably going to do

something similar to this year, you can count them. I mean, just, I mean, I think then that's, it's interesting. I was having a conversation with the head coach about this recently, about cross-pollination of defensive schemes in the NFL and how we just don't see them as much as we see with offense. With offense, you can have something catch fire. Everybody starts running and everyone copies it. It feels like this is one of the first years where that's happening with defense,

whether it's now Green Bay, the Rams, Chargers, Broncos, I think the Lions might do something with Aubrey Pleasant. You think about all the different people from that tree now infiltrating throughout the league. Do you feel like that type of, defense and it becoming more prevalent, influence the way that you watch guys or do you think it will moving forward? Were you trying to pick up on different stuff because we're seeing teams play a little bit of a different style throughout the league now? Yeah, I think there were, I mean, the last time

we really saw this was Seattle in the cover three, Legion of Boom, kind of just, Dan Quinn leaves, Gus Bradley, all of them kind of proliferate that across the NFL. And I think that's, this is the next version of that. You'll obviously see Belichick disciples, you know, run some similar stuff to what Belichick does in their man coverage. But yeah, I think this is kind of the new wave of defenses. You're going to see more guys projected to, you know, the zone skill set or kind of more instinctual skill set that succeeds in defenses like that may be more coveted going forward.

And we're talking about the guys with size and speed who are better fits for those press, heavy defenses. I don't think size necessarily matters at the cornerback position, safety position necessarily in those because you're not impacting the run. game, you're not coming up and pressing nearly as much. And so when that's the case, and you're just playing off coverage, a lot of times, you just prioritize then, like I said, instinctual cornerbacks, guys who see the game well, because, like, Darius Williams was 5'8, whatever, having a big year for the ramps last year,

not even. And Troy Hill wasn't put together. Like, he's taller, but he's skinny. Yeah. Like, those guys don't play. Like, they won't even see the field in certain schemes across the NFL. You're not even going to trot them out there. but they go to the Rams and obviously have career years last year.

So yeah, I do think it's going to change the body types or whatever that you're looking for for certain defenses. It also feels like if we're talking in accordance with the types of receivers that are coming into the league, think about all the 5-8 space guys that you're going to have to cover now. It almost feels like having those guys to play have to play off but are a little bit more comfortable in space with movement skills is more important now than it absolutely was 10 years ago.

So just one kind of influences the other, in these ways that are really obvious to see. Yeah. And man, the amount of like five, nine receivers in this class that it can run like low four fours to high four threes. It's just, I've never seen anything like it. Is there anybody in that group that you feel like could consistently play outside that you feel like is not just a slot guy?

Because that's the conversation about post round one in this class, right? We have a lot of slot guys, but not a lot of outside guys. Do you feel like there could be a team that could find value in a small receiver that they could put outside more consistently. Yeah, I think there is, like, there is a track record of guys. Now, it's not everyone, but Brandon Cooks, Emmanuel Sanders, obviously, Tyree Kill, but like he's a different, don't even, he's a different category in his own right. Tyler Lockett, even, like there are guys that succeed 59, 510, 180, 185 pounds are all kind

of where those guys thrive. I think of when Manuel Sanders might be 511, but like still on the, the smaller ed, you've seen guys succeed on the outside. So I don't think it's impossible to want. I would highlight of this year's receiver class of Elijah Moore. Obviously that tape he put up against J.C. Horn, a big reason because of that. It's like, what do you worry about with those guys? You worry about them just getting their butt kicked by a bigger,

by a guy who's 30 pounds heavier than them on the outside. They're just getting pressed entirely to the sideline, not being able to, you know, not being able to separate down the field. So that's what you worry about. But I think Elijah Moore, quicks and strength. Like he has both of those, despite being on the smaller side, like 180. But he did like 17 bench reps at 180, which is pretty good.

So that's the guy I'd say is, if I were to say anyone could succeed as the outside virus here would be him. Awesome. All right, buddy. That's all we got. I sincerely appreciate you doing this. It's always good to chat with you. I'm looking forward to, I'm sure you're looking forward to getting some sleep here in the next

couple weeks. I'm sure it's been a long couple months. I was going to say, I'm not going to sleep for a few weeks. So, yeah, I will look forward to that after the draft for sure. May is going to be good to you. I'm looking forward to it for you. So always good to chat with you, man. Mike Renner, please go check out all of his work on PFF.

The draft guide they do is fantastic. I feel like I shouldn't be saying that because we also have a draft guide. But I read both and both of them are excellent. So please go check out both of them. Mike, always going to chat with Bud. Talk to you later. Sure, Rob. Thanks for having me on then.

All right, guys, that's all we got today. Thank you so much to Mike and Matt for stopping by. As a reminder, live draft show, April 29th, after the 15th pick of the draft, me and Nate are going to be coming to you live together from Chicago. Lindsay is going to be joining us as well as Dane Bruegler providing analysis. So be on the lookout for that over the next couple weeks. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I would really appreciate if you guys did that.

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But I'm very excited for that show. Really looking forward to it. Thank you guys for listening. We'll talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.