The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Emptying the training camp notebook with the Ravens, Eagles, Commanders and Steelers

Episode Date: August 17, 2022

When you make training camp swing through about two-thirds of the league, eventually your notebook fills up. And when your notebook fills up, you have to empty it. That's exactly what Robert Mays does on this episode of The Athletic Football Show, sharing his conversations with The Athletic's beat writers for the Ravens (Jeff Zrebiec), Eagles (Bo Wulf), Commanders (Ben Standig) and Steelers (Mark Kaboly). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today's Wednesday, August 17th. I'm Robert Mays. A fun show for you guys today. We've had some visits with some of our team writers at the Athletic stack up. So we decided to package those into one episode. We tied it with our Ravens writer, the Athletic Jeff Seabek,

one of our Eagles writers, Bo Wolf, our Washington football writer, Ben Standig, and our Steelers writer, Mark Cabal. We are going to have those conversations with all of those guys for you today. So let's get to it. All right. It's time now to visit with our Ravens writer here at the athletic, Jeff Saripic. Jeff, how you doing, man? Good, man.

How are you? Thanks for having me. I appreciate you coming on. I was supposed to talk to you in person at Ravens Camp. That did not happen because the day before I was supposed to go to Ravens Camp, I was in the emergency room until 3.30 in the morning, which is pretty awesome. I am fine. Long story short, I got done with a drive from Rochester to New Jersey, got out of the car, and my left shoulder and arm went completely numb.

And my fiance happened to be flying in that night because she was coming in to spend the weekend in New York because I was going to be there. I picked her up at the Newark airport. And I was like, guess what? We're going to the hospital. So we did that. I was there to about 3.30. I got a CAT scan, which was very fun. They checked me for blood clots, all that good stuff.

And they were like, you seem fine. And we've eventually figured out that I have a pinched nerve in my neck because of all the driving that I've been doing. So I decided to nix the five-hour drive to Baltimore. So it's been a fun training camp trip. The training camp trip is a little different at 34 than it is at 25, Jeff. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah, the players are not the only ones grind in during training camp, right?

And the players aren't the only ones whose bodies are falling apart. Me and Colise, me and Colise Campbell are like the same age at this point. And if you've ever heard about what he has to do every single week to play, like all of the acupuncture and his routine is absolutely insane, I think I'm going to have to start doing that during the training camp trip, like regular massages, acupuncture, watching what I eat, all that. Time to start taking care of myself. Yeah, he talks about how much money he allots in his personal budget just for season prep, for in season prep, preseason prep. It is. It's a huge financial commitment for him. But that's why he's played as long as he does, as he has, excuse me, because he takes it so seriously. Absolutely. But we still wanted to have this conversation. I'm a little bummed I couldn't get there just because the Ravens are a Super Bowl contender, man. I mean, this is a good team. A lot of moving pieces in the offseason. I think the roster is vastly improved from where they were a year ago. Obviously, the most injured team in football last year, so many bad breaks. with a couple better ones, they're going to be really good this year.

I want to start with the quarterback, though, and I want to start with, you know, this timeline that's been established about his extension and just kind of the error around his extension in general. Can you just give us the latest about what you know in regard to Lamar Jackson's timeline and kind of your feel for how this whole thing has gone? Yeah, it's been so, you know, it's been so unusual. It's been kind of the, yeah, it's been the weirdest contract negotiations I've ever covered. And, you know, for most of the offseason, whether it was owner Steve Bishadhi or general manager Eric DeCosta or head coach John Harbaugh, they all were saying, look, we're ready to talk about it. Whenever he's ready, we'll be here. We'll be ready and willing and able to start executing on this deal.

And it was, Lamar's not interested at this point. He's just, he's focused on his recovery from, you know, the injury that ended his last season. and he's just not really engaging us, but we'll be ready when he does. So that has changed in the last couple months. I guess back in June is when Lamar made it known that he would like to get a deal. He would like to start negotiating again. And, you know, they've been having talks since. I don't get to sense their daily talks.

You know, it's such a weird dynamic because he's your quarterback. He's out on the practice field every day. He's in meetings. It's not like you're staging these marathon negotiation sessions with him when you want him ready for practice and ready for meetings and all that. So they're talking periodically, but, you know, they have not been able to reach agreement on a deal. And, you know, they've made it clear. I think both sides are comfortable with the fact that they will stop when they start kicking into preparation for the September 11th regular season opener against the Jets. And we're getting close there.

You know, you hear a bunch of things. I think you've got to be a little bit cautious because, A, Lamar doesn't have an agent. He has such a small inner circle. So there's not a whole lot of people that know what he wants, what he's looking for. It's such a small group. A lot of it's speculation. I mean, the latest is he wants the Watson deal. He wants a fully guaranteed deal that either matches or exceeds the Watson deal.

And, you know, I get it. I get him asking for that. But I think Steve Bishadhi has also been clear when he's talked about it. it that we're not going to let the Browns dictate what we do with our spending and our decisions. So it just seems like Robert they're kind of out of stalemate here. And, you know, the other issues, the Ravens who are notoriously close to the vest, I mean, look, they want to have an open relationship with Lamar, but they don't, they don't want to leak stuff because it's, you know, it's going to hurt the trust in negotiations.

I mean, at the end of the day, this guy's still your franchise quarterback. So they have to be real careful with what they're saying, what gets out there. So that's why it's led to this kind of this cloak of silence from both sides. But yeah, we're coming on the deadline here, Robert. And, you know, the old saying goes, deadline spur compromise. We shall see in this case, it's getting late. And they seem to be out of stalemate right now. And I don't think it's ideal for the Ravens.

But I think the Ravens would be comfortable if he played in fifth year option. And they just planned on using the franchise tag. and going at this again next year. Again, I don't think that's what they want to do, but I think they would be okay with that if that's what it came to. They have leverage. I mean, that's the nature of the franchise tag. They have control in this situation moving forward.

Lamar, I feel like he would want to kind of secure something long term. But we've seen that with quarterbacks. Dak is the best recent example where they're safer than they might seem. You're not one injury away, depending on the injury from really hurting yourself. So I understand both sides of it. I'm sure on the Raven side, they're looking at the Kyler contract, adding a million, two million bucks to that and saying, let's go.

And Lamar wants the Deshaun Watson contract. And those are pretty far away from each other. So that has to be kind of the points that they're both negotiating off as I had to guess. And you have to think, you know, there is so much pressure on Lamar right now on this deal because he is negotiating himself. And there's hundreds of agents ready to jump in if he takes a law or if he doesn't get the best deal now. and say, see, if he had an agent, this wouldn't have happened. He wouldn't have signed this deal. You know, so this deal, if this deal gets criticized, it's going to be on Lamar because he's controlled the whole process. Not to mention you have guys like Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert.

There's a lot of quarterbacks waiting in the wings and looking at this Lamar Jackson situation. So the last thing he wants to do is sign what is perceived as to be a more team friendly deal and not get, you know, what he's, you know, so-called worth. So, you know, he's obviously dug in a little bit and trying to get the best deal for him. He has ideas what this, that is. They've thought they've made him pretty good offers along the way and it hasn't getting done. So here we are. As I said, probably, you know, openers in about four weeks. And I'd imagine like the week leading into the opener, there wouldn't be any negotiations because it'll be all Jets focused. So we probably got about another two, two and a half weeks of this to see if they can get it done before, you know,

kind of talk sees. Let's keep on the offensive personnel for right now. Obviously, the offensive line is vastly improved when you look at just the players up there. Ronnie Stanley potentially getting back. Tyler Lindelbaum in the first round, they signed Morgan Moses. You know, the running backs are going to be healthier. Can you just run me through kind of the state of the health of some of these guys and when they're going to be back?

Because a lot of guys coming back from injury, a lot of guys currently or just off the public list, where are J.K. Dobbins, Ronnie Stanley, some of these big names. that are going to be important to what this team is. That's a great question, Robert. And, you know, I think we all know, and it's not making an excuse, but I think we all know health factor prominently in their undoing last year. I mean, it was, you know, it was almost a historical season injury-wise with the number of guys that they lost.

And the issue there is, I mean, most of these guys are still out and you still don't know. But running down, let's see, the running backs, J.K. Dobbins returned to practice last week. He practiced a couple days, clearly laboring a little bit, like you'd expect. You know, he hadn't been out on the field for a while, still working him way back into shape, you know, had a little hitch in his giddy up. And, you know, he ran like a player who's a little bit of ways away. And then we haven't seen him since. Now, John Harbaugh claims this was kind of planned. This was just the evaluation period for JK. But he's supposed to be practicing Monday. We'll see if that's the case. If he's not, it's pretty clear and obvious that they didn't exactly,

they weren't exactly thrilled with what they saw last week. And, you know, they decide to back off him a little bit, which would obviously put him in major jeopardy for week one. As it is, Gus Edwards is not expected to be ready for week one. He's another of those pup guys. Hope probably stay on pup to start the season. Maybe he's a midseason guy for them, but he had a really serious knee injury. His rehab is not responded as quickly as they hoped. No setbacks. It just hasn't, you know, it just hasn't responded. So we'll see about Dobbins. They're still hopeful, but there is a very real chance that they go into the season here with a running back trio of Mike Davis, Justice Hill, and the rookie Tyler Beatty from Missouri. Maybe some other guys factor into that, like Corey Clement,

he's still on the roster and Nate McCrary. We saw a bit last year. But those other three are kind of the guys now, and then they'll see if Dobbins can get back. At left tackle, Ronnie Stanley looks really good. He's been out at every practice. He just hasn't been practicing. He's kind of been a bystander after his rehab sessions end. But with Ronnie and a couple of the other pup guys, they've been looking at next week all along. Gotcha.

They go to Arizona this week. They're not having joint practices, but they're going a little early for two days of practices. and then they play a Sunday night primetime preseason game, which I'm sort of, they're thrilled about, going all there for a preseason game. But so when they get back next week, next Tuesday or so, that's going to be the day. If Marcus Peters isn't back then, if Gus Edwards, excuse me, Gus Edwards won't be, but if J.K. Dobbins isn't, as Ronnie Stanley isn't, then there'll be some concern. Next week is the week they plan on having some of these guys back.

And, you know, Peters, by all counts, is doing well. They're still optimistic. He'll be ready for week one. I think next week is a week for him to return to practice. Ty's Bowser, the returning leading sack guy. He's another guy that, you know, he had his Achilles in January. He's made really good strides. They're hopeful for week one still.

And next week could be the time he returns to practice. So that's why this team is so hard to predict because they have so many key players that have not been out on the field and probably won't be until next week at the earliest. And, you know, you add rookie sender Tyler Linderbom to the list with a foot injury. he's going on almost two weeks out. Harb Alcetto would probably be about two weeks. They're still saying that they think he'll be there for week one and he'll be comfortably ahead of that.

But we shall see, you know, foot injuries with big offensive linemen are always to be taken seriously. With J.K. Dobbins, has there been any sort of setback or has this always been a pretty cautious timetable? Because it was a pretty serious knee injury. It wasn't just an ACL. There was a lot going on. Do we feel like this is always the trajectory it was supposed to be on?

Or have there been some hiccups along the way? Yeah, no, I think this is the trajectory. And J.K. Dobbins has really tried to force the issue. I mean, you know, he almost made a scene in the first practice. He went out there in his uniform, even though he's on his pup list, and he was pleading to get into practice. And, you know, at one point, Eric DeCosta put his arm around him, was telling him to relax. And Steve Bishotti, the owner was out there talking to him.

And I know Justin Houston, the veteran gave him a pep talk. He wanted to be out there. This kid's a competitor. He wants to be on the field. Maybe he's forced the issue a little bit to get back on the field. But again, these guys were always expected to be mid-August, that August 20th range type guys to return to practice. And I don't know that there's been any setbacks per se, but sometimes rehab just doesn't go as, you know, I think people, you know, not us, obviously, because, you know, we've been covering a lot of these. But, you know, I think sometimes fans, you know, adhere to the strict timetable, like, need.

injuries, you're back at this time. But it doesn't always work that way. I mean, all knee injuries are different. And, like, rehab takes, you know, some players react differently to rehab. And, you know, none of these Ravens, by any accounts, have had any setbacks. It's just some, some have gone quicker than the others in the rehab process. Let's make you stop playing doctor here and talk about actual football stuff. So, Rashad Bateman, we're all excited about him.

This is a pro-Rashad Bateman podcast and has been for a very long time. I'm ready for him to take a step. but obviously some questions about the other past catchers on this team. How would you just stack up the pecking order for the other receivers and the sort of roles that you envisioned for those guys? Because obviously, Bateman is going to be their clear-cut number one receiver. Mark Andrews is the number one pass-catching option on this team. But other than that, where are we at right now?

Yeah, that's a great question. And from the second they traded Marquise Brown on the first night of the draft, I think me and everyone else who covers the team, we're just waiting for that veteran receiver to come in. we didn't you know i wasn't projecting it was going to be one of these guys that they'd pay big money to but uh you know even like a will fuller or a guy like that one of these free agents that you can get probably pretty cheap you know you have ty y hilton still out there Emmanuel Sanders cole Beasley i mean there's some guys uh but they haven't budged there and and um you know

baitman has looked great uh you know just he he looks different than everybody else you know in terms of the guys we see out in the field he runs really good route speaking my way language, man. You get me too excited now. Yeah, he's spent a lot of, he spent some time with Lamar in the offseason, you know, he's visited them and, you know, running routes. And, and he's really taking this seriously. He's a real businesslike, no nonsense guy. And I think they're good there. And you know what, a guy, James Prochet is a former six-round pick. He hasn't gotten on the field much. I mean, he flashed a little bit last year when they gave him a chance. He had a big game in Denver. but you know he's had some breakdowns at times that has sort of maybe got him in the doghouse,

you know, run the wrong route at a key spot or that kind of thing. But he's until recently when he had a soft tissue injury, he looked great. He was really looking like their number two receiver. He was lining up on the outside, working in the slot, you know, doing a lot of damage at different areas of the field. Now, I know it's only practice, but he was well on his way to kind of becoming that number two, we thought. you know, at least with how things were working out. And then the other guy in the mix is Devin Duverne, who I think he'll play some slot, he'll play some outside.

I think you'll see him on some jet sweeps. He's obviously an all-pro kick returner. I would say he's having a pretty good training camp. He had a little hiccup, like a week-long thigh contusion. But he's been back and he's been productive since, and he got off to a really good start. We're seeing him get behind the defense a good bit. So those are the top three. and I don't know that they know the fourth.

I mean, I think they're hoping it would be Thailand Wallace, you know, the second year guy from Oklahoma State, but he's had a tough, he's had a tough summer, has not been very productive. And now he has a knee sprain. But it would be interesting, guys. The one guy that's been sort of the talk of camp is the fourth round tight end, Isaiah likely, who, you know, looks the part. And I think they'll use him a lot in the slot. I think they'll put him wide at times.

He's going to have a major part in this offense. I think a much bigger part than people expect. I mean, the rookie from Coastal Carolina kind of botched his draft workouts. Did not do well in the time with the, you know, the 40 and some of the athletic, you know, measures and all that. But he's looked great. You know, he's not Mark Andrews, but he's been very productive and they've moved him around a lot. And I think he's going to have a major part of the offense.

and he's going to be one of those guys that they look to kind of pick up some of the receiving slack from some of the receptions they lost from Marquise Brown. If I'm trying to kind of pick up little hints from the way that they spent this offseason, Nick Boyle coming back healthy, them drafting Isaiah likely and Charlie Kohler in the fourth round, it just seems like they want to play with more tight ends on the field than they might have over the last two years. And I think part of the reason, if you look at the percentages, I just checked it. They were 17 percent 12 personnel in 2019 when Lamar won the MVP. that went to about 8-ish percent in 2020 and 2021.

And I think that's somewhat driven by personnel. But when they've been really good, they've had a couple tight ends on the field. And it just seems like if you look at where the roster is right now and all of the buzz, the most flexibility and the best chance to get their best players out there might involve more two tight-end sets than we've seen from them over the last two years. Do you think that's fair? I think you're absolutely right. I think the Boyle lost last year not having him really hurt. them in a lot of ways in different areas. Obviously, the running game primarily. But they're, you know,

in 2019 when he was what, the second unanimous MVP in the NFL NFL's history, Brady, I think was the other, you know, I think their leading receiver was Marquis Brown had something like 630 yards receiving. I mean, that receiving core in 2019 was like Marquis Brown, Willie Sneed, Jaliel Scott, Seth Roberts. I mean. and they were 14 and 2, you know what I mean? And I think, and we've written it, I've written it, it looks like it's a clear effort this year to replicate some of what they did in 2019. They loaded up on the offensive line, tried to solidify that, because that was one of the strengths

of the team in 19. That offensive line was really good this year. They loaded up on tight ends. They added a couple backs, you know, one in the draft, and then Mike Davis is a veteran. And it sure seems like they want to get closer to 2019 and what they were offensively that year and how they ran the offense. But I also think, and we've seen it, they've taken a bunch of deep shots in practice. We've seen more deep shots in practice than we've seen in recent summers. I also think they still feel like they need to be more explosive in the passing game and get more chunk plays there.

But they're at their best and they've been at their best when they played like they did in 2019. So I think they're trying to gravitate a little closer to that. On defense, I think the personnel, a lot of guys that we expect, Justin Houston is back. They kind of tweaked and retooled this thing in the front seven the way that you'd expect it to. On the back end, there's some big changes. But to me, the biggest change is the play caller and the way they want to structure this thing. Mike McDonald steps in for Wink Martindale, who the Ravens for the last few years were very distinct on defense. They played it with a certain style, and that's who Wink Martindale is.

You look at what he's doing. He's running double a double mug A gap. pressures in preseason against the Patriots this weekend. That's who Wink Martindale is. And there was a little bit of a shift last year. I would have to assume because John Harbaugh wanted a little bit of a shift. But then they move on from Wink Martindale. And now Mike McDonald is there.

What sort of changes within the defensive structure do you expect with Mike McDonald there now? Yeah. You know, and I just saw, we were laughing. I was just talking to our Giants colleague this morning, actually, and wondering, like, is Wink always blitz this much in practice? And I was like, yep, that's him. You know, in practice, preseason games, regular season games, it doesn't matter. But, you know, I think we'll see less of the cover zero stuff, Robert, that, you know, we know Wink love to throw out. I think we'll see more simulated pressures

and them do different things to get pressure. I think we're going to see a lot more focus on disguise in the back end and them trying to get as many dbs on the field as possible. You know, as of now, I think we'll see a lot of three safety looks with the rookie from Notre Dame, you know, Hamilton being a part of that with Marcus Williams and Chuck Clark. They're loading defensive backs. It looks like their strength, assuming Marcus Peters comes back. And I think, you know, look, it is wink Martindale. He's ultra aggressive.

But John Harbaugh is an aggressive guy. He wants them blitzing. He wants them attacking. So I don't think it'll be, you know, it's going to change. Look, make no question. They'll blitz less. They'll do a lot of less that cover zero. But I think they will pick their spots and still be an aggressive defense.

But I think they'll kind of do it in other ways, if you know what I mean, and not rely so much on the all-out blitzes and not put so much strain on their defensive backfield all the time. This is what's going to be so interesting to me with this new control. trend on defense happening with these shell coverages and all the staley fan geo stuff that I think more teams will be trying out. That's early down stuff.

When you get to third down, that's when defensive coordinators can be themselves. That's when they can really show you who they are and where they're from. And even if Mike McDonald wants to incorporate more of that stuff on early downs, on third down, he's still a Ravens guy. This is the world he was raised in

even if he took a year off last year. So I still think we're going to see some exotic shit. I think it's going to be very fun, but I think that's going to be in those defined passing situations where on early downs, it's going to be a little bit more nebulous, a little bit harder to figure out more disguises, like you said. It's going to be fun to watch. I think that that's going to be the coolest part of watching this version of defense and these kind of defensive ideas travel around the league is that each individual defensive coordinator is still going to be able to show you what he believes to his core. And I think at his core, Mike McDonald is

still a Ravens guy. You know, he, he comes at college, he had some interesting experiences, you know, with some different coaching staffs. But for the most part, this is where he's been raised. Yep. And working under Wink Martindale, too. So, yeah, no, I agree with you. I think what's going to be interesting is, obviously I'm very interested how they utilize

Kyle Hamilton. I was going to ask you about him next. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's going to be an interesting story. But I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't. I try not to judge buzz around the, it's hard to tell buzz, but I don't see a whole lot of people

talking about Marcus Williams, but I'm really interested to see how they use him because in the past, the piece that Wink really never had was that rangy center field type safety that could cover and cover ground and had good ball skills and could turn mistakes into, you know, opportunities the other way. Obviously, Marcus Peters can do that. Marlon Humphrey can, but they never had that free safety type. They're basically playing with two strong safeties for the last couple of years with Chuck Clark and Sean Elliott. Tony Jefferson was really never that guy.

Marcus Williams is different. He's different than a player that they've had in several years in that, you know, he could play, you know, deep and he could line up in different places. And then you add a guy like Kyle Hamilton to the mix, who I think will move all over the place and they'll utilize them in a lot of different areas. And, you know, you start really seeing some check. guest pieces for, you know, Mike McDonald, you know, Humphrey can play in the slot or outside. You know, Marcus Peters is going to be outside. So, you know, there's some different guys there

and there's some different skill sets. They did a good job, I think, diversifying that group a little bit on the back end. And that, you know, who knows with health, but that stands to be, you know, the strength of their team. What have you seen from Kyle Hamilton so far? I mean, based on the way that Twitter is talking about it, it's been an up and down thing. But you've Being there and actually watching this would have been the early returns on Kyle Hamilton. I think the easiest way to put it is the stuff that everybody was so excited about and the reasons why he was such a highly touted player, you see all that, right? You know, you see all that on a regular basis. He's a fluid mover and just, you know, covers ground instinctive, impressive physically.

but the other stuff, you know, that were concerns, the teams that had concerns about them, the teams that had bypassed of them, you know, were over his size and, you know, the shiftyness, whether he'd be able to cover from the slot and his hips and all that. You see those concerns too. So I would say it's kind of been a mixed bag, you know, but I think it's been judged a little harshly. I mean, the guys out there in a one-on-one's covering a shifty slot receiver. I mean, Mike McDonald's not going to last long. NFL if he allows that during the game. I mean, that's just not going to happen. So I think he's

had a relatively good training camp. I mean, you know, I'll be honest. I mean, Harbaugh pulled me aside the other day and, you know, and it was all in, it was helpful. You know, he was talking to me. He's like, watch how Hamilton does this. And, you know, some of their coverage is they're going to be able to do more because of, you know, Kyle Hamilton and what he's able to do and where he's able to line up. I think they're very happy with him, you know, for the most part. He missed a couple tackles the other night. Okay. You know, he hasn't played a game in 10 months.

So I don't think they're too worried about that. But yeah, I think he's kind of been as advertised. You see the good. You see some of the things that people are concerned about and people believe he's going to be a work in progress. And but I think the whole package is a guy that's going to contribute from week one for them. Awesome. I'm glad that we cleared that up because I'm very excited. about Kyle Hamilton and I cannot wait to see what we're going to get out of him. Jeff,

really appreciate the time. I'm sorry we could not do this in person, but it's always great to chat with you. Oh, thanks for having me and glad to hear you're feeling better. Doing okay. We're almost there. I'll talk to you soon. Sounds good. Thanks. All right. It's time now to chat with one of our Eagles writers here at the athletic. Bull Wolf'sville. How are you doing, buddy? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming to Philly. We are in a closet of sorts in a small. room where you guys sit near the Eagles facility is the best way I can explain this. It's a bit of a throwback. We haven't done like in-person pods like this in a while on Birds with Friends in this little closet in the media house, but it brings back memories of like

the first couple of years with a person who shall not be named. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. He's dead to all of us, which I think is totally fair. What's the vibe been here? Because I think they think they're going to be pretty good. I think they're going to be pretty good. I think they're going to be pretty good. I think fans think they're going to be pretty good. I think, you know, I think they're going to be pretty good. A lot of that is like context dependent on an easy schedule and an easy division. But it's hard to, and like the contrarian in me is like, okay, everybody's talking up the Eagles. How can I?

Like, why is it not going to go that well? That's why you're a special person. But it's hard like, I mean, they had a really good offseason. They addressed, you know, they pretty much improved every level of. the defense, like significantly. The offense is the exact same, except you drop in A.J. Brown on top, which is a pretty good thing to drop in on top. It's hard not to be excited and think that this team is, you know, maybe the front runner for the division.

I think they should be. The Cowboys, you look at the lack of money they've spent, the lack of urgency on that side. It's a weird thing to say, but I don't know how much the Cowboys want to win the division. And I think the Eagles really do. They do. So I think that's an important distinction to make it this time of the year. I asked a member of the offensive coaching staff today that this is any indication of how they're feeling. I was like, what are you most worried about? And he said, keeping everyone happy with like distribution of past. If that's your biggest problem, you're doing okay. It's a pretty good life to be living. But when you look at personnel wise, they have, I think you could absolutely make the argument the best offensive line

in football. Yes. With the way that it's worked out with Milata and Lanna Dickerson, health was the biggest concern for him coming in. If he's going to be healthy, he's going to be. good. We know what Kelsey is and Lane Johnson when he's on the field is fantastic. You look at the offensive personnel. It's really interesting to think about how many different ways they'll be able to play now. Because you have AJ Brown and he can play inside and outside

and Devante can and now you have a speed guy in Quest Watkins and you have a grinder and Zach Pascoe and Dallas Goddard is still here. They got backs that can do different things. He check almost every single box. And then you get to the quarterback and that is I think kind of the only question that matters anymore as it relates to the 2022 Eagles?

Do you think that's a fair characterization? Well, I think the Jalen Hertz conversation is so interesting because it's like there's two separate conversations. You know, there is the big picture state your case to be the long-term quarterback. That's the Howie Roseman conversation. And he needs to, you know, he needs to make an improvement to be better this offseason or this season going into next off season when they've got two draft picks and some cap flexibility, two first-round picks.

in terms of like this season, I don't think Jalen Hertz has to be any different than he was last season for this team to be, you know, an 11, 12 win team potentially. Yeah, it's about sealing probably, right? The difference in Jalen Hertz is the difference in your ceiling, not the difference in what you're going to be during the regular season.

Exactly. I think they win the division if he's exactly the same. I think if he takes a real leap, then they could be, you know, contenders for the conference potentially. That's, you know, a little bit lofty, but I don't think it's outrageous. And in terms of like, how can he improve, you know, Siriani said in the offseason, you know, the stuff that you would expect, you know, accuracy and decision making. It's like they love everything he does as a quarterback except for the quarterback part of it sometimes.

But he also said something today that was interesting that was like maybe we get on him for leaving the pocket too soon sometimes when we shouldn't. Because even if it's a relatively clean pocket, if nobody's open, that's what that's what his next move is, right? is creating something either by rolling out and throwing or running, which he's so good at, and so good at without getting hit, which I think is important context. I think, you know, my expectation for Jalen Hertz this year is that he is going to probably turn the ball over a little bit more than he did last year just because he was so good at that last year. But I think he will be a better passer.

I think there are some, like, baked in year-over-year regression things. Like he's probably going to be a better deep passer than he was last year because he was so far towards the bottom of the league. And I think, like, I mean, AJ Brown, it's hard to, like, it's hard to oversell being here every day how much Jalen Hurts has thrown to A.J. Brown. Like, Devante Smith was out of practice for a week because of an injury and he returned today. But, like, during the time that Devante Smith was out, I think he hit A.J. Brown more than everybody else on the offense combined, like, especially if you discount screens.

And, like, the thing that A.J. Brown brings that is so perfect for J. Hertz is like he's so good at winning on in breaking routes. Jailen Hertz did not throw the ball over the middle of the field last year. He threw 16 passes between the hashes last season. The people around him on that list, Andy Dalton, Mike Glennon, guys that did not start for more than a handful of games. I think the football outsider sat that I saw this morning when I was prepping for this day, 10% of their throws went over the middle of the field last season.

No one else in the league was below 16%. That's pretty crazy. It's a huge chasm. That's a very different style of football. That has not been the case this summer. And it hasn't been like he's hesitant to throw it over the middle. It's perfect with AJ Brown. And it's one of those like it's like a happy accident for the Eagles because you think about what they did this offseason.

You know, they told us like, oh, why is everybody worried about wide receiver? It's not that big of a deal. We're in good shape. They tried to trade for Calvin Ridley. They tried to sign Alan Robinson. They tried to sign Christian Kirk. All of those things didn't happen. come draft night they trade for a j brown and obviously he's like he's better than all those guys but

he's also better in such specific ways that are so helpful to jalen hurts and you don't you don't make that trade thinking how is this guy going to fit with jailin hertz you know you're signing him to a long long-term deal is the highest paid player on the team you're getting him because he's a jrown but it's like it happens to be perfect that he brings exactly what what they sort of need in this offense i was talking someone about today i said is there something inherent to the way the jalen sees the game or the way that he wants to play, that that area of the field is a little bit more off limits. And they said, no.

It just, I don't think it's an accident to end up with those sort of extreme numbers, but I don't think it's necessarily indicative of what's going to happen moving forward. And I think having AJ Brown is an important part of that. And it's, God, it's so funny. You look at the guys they added this off season, there's a certain flavor to them. The amount of bulk that they added to this team with AJ Brown and Jordan Davis, even Zach Pascal. Just the amount of like sheer muscle and size they added to this team in the last few months.

It doesn't feel like an accident. It feels like they're kind of building a bully a little bit in a way that they needed to, which I totally understand. So I think with the J-1-Herts conversation, you look back to the mini-buye that they had after the Tampa Bay game last year. And I think they kind of had to come to Jesus, who are we and who should we be conversation with themselves. And they shift the offense drastically from the first half to the second half. I mean, to an insane degree. It's crazy. It's crazy.

You know what? To their credit. Like, absolutely to their credit, to be able to do that. Like, they, Nick Siriani and Shane Steichen deserve credit for being like, you know what? We're willing to be different, whether it's who the play caller was, whether it's what the structure of the offense was. But in order to get to a world where things were operating a little bit better, they had to put themselves into a box. And that box, you can survive in it during the regular season. You can even look really good in it.

At times during the night-off season. Especially against the easiest schedule in the league. Yes. But when you get closer to the games that matter, when you play the Tampa Bay Buccaneers of the world, that box has to get a lot bigger. And I think that becomes the question about J.1 Hertz. And how do you make that box bigger while still making him and the offense comfortable? I think adding a guy like A.J. Brown does that.

But expanding who he is as a passer does that. And when you talked about him billing out of the pocket, I think they're okay with that. I think the decisions need to come quickly whatever the decisions are. Yes. It's him not locking on to one thing for too long and then scrambling around. If it's one and done and go, that's probably fine. But if it's not that, it has to be one to two to three. I think everything operating a little bit faster than it did last year is probably the number one priority.

And if you're trying to spend this optimistically, the fact that this is literally the first time he's played in the same offense since he was in high school. I understand that's like camp speak and seeing it and it's slowing down and all that shit. I do think in this particular circumstance, it probably does matter. It's one of those things where it's like intellectual, you're like, okay, that should make a lot of sense. It is the first time he's in the second year of an offense since high school. And then you're also like, what, does that really matter? Like, is this just who he is? But I mean, I think I think it's hard not to think that it does matter to some degree.

And I think you're right. Like if it's if it's one, two, three or one to go, if go for him. him is better than whatever his third option is, that's great. And it often is because if your check down is your third option and you run like Jalen Hertz, that can be the way that you check it down and that's totally acceptable. And he is, I said it before, but part of what makes him really good as a runner is that he's really good at protecting himself too. Like he gets out of bounds very well, you know, unless, I don't know if you saw, but like

Quincy Wilson from the Jets is going to headhunt him on the sideline that first play of the preseason game. I did see that. He can't control that. But, you know, and his season last year, in terms of like the EPA per run and also the success rate of it, I think was like the second or third best rushing season of the decade after that one Lamar Jackson year. He's really good at that. And I don't know if that's, you know, whether that's sustainable over the long run is probably that's the Howie Roseman conversation.

But for this year, I think it adds obviously to what the Eagles can do. You and I have talked about this. Is the way to maximize your offense in the short term with J.1 Hertz, the way to maximize your team in the long term, whether that's utilizing your results? receiving talent, all of that. I think that they're going to make the box bigger and it's up to jail and hurts to sink or sweat. And if he doesn't, then they have a decision to make. I don't think they're going to try to live in that very narrow world just to get the most they can out of their offense this year. And I think that's for a variety of different reasons. I think that's right. And I also think to what you were saying before, they did the same thing on defense that I think they're

trying to do on offense is that they want to have the flexibility to have different personalities game to game. Yes. Like, if they need to do what they did at the end of last season and be extremely run heavy, they can do that. If they want to spread it, you know, three wide, that's great. They've got the flexibility to do that. They've got, you know, the speed threat in Quest Watkins.

They've got the big slot in Zach Pascall. Last year, even after they traded Zach Ertz, they played 12 personnel as much as anybody in the league with this undrafted rookie Jack Stoll getting the most of the reps there. He had like six catches on the year. And they were the most efficient offense in the league in 12 personnel, which you might not expect because they didn't have the people for that, it seemed like. But yeah, I think their idea is that they can be extremely flexible week to week. Do you think that that's concerned with the lack of tight, in depth and just the amount of body types they have?

Because offensively, if I was looking at where the weaknesses are personnel-wise, it would be the lack of options there because they can play 11 in all sorts of different ways because of the differences between Kwez and Zach Pascal and the flavors it can give you. And if you want to move A.J. in there. So they have kind of a weird amount of receiver depth with the way we've talked about this team in the past. It's crazy having been here that this, I mean, this is as deep and as like well cast as you could imagine for a wide receiver. And that's the nice part about AJ Brown is that he makes everyone else a truer version of themselves. Exactly.

Right. And when you think about it, that that makes sense. But the tight end stuff, it's like, how many different ways can you play in 12 personnel? Do they have the bodies to do that? I'm almost wondering, do they just live in 11 more often this year because it's the best players that they have? Yeah, I don't know if your listeners expected us to get into like the second, third, fourth tight ends on the Eagles, but I think they probably did because there are sick people who listen to this podcast.

I love a sicko. So they've got, they've got Grant Caceterra, who's their sixth round pick from this year, who is a receiving first tight end. He looked really good for the first like three days of camp, then pulled his hamster and he hasn't practiced since. Tyree Jackson, the former quarterback, looked sort of interesting last year. He's on PUP. He might be back for the start of the season.

He tore his ACL in the regular season finale. so they're not counting on him to be back. And then they've got Jack Stoll who is definitely, I mean, he can catch, but he's in usage at least last year was like one of the most block-heavy tight ends in the league. So if it is like if you're nitpicking an offense and saying, I'm not so sure they've got a great two or three tight end right now, that's probably a good place to be. But that if like we're looking for a waiver claim that they might add,

it's backup running back, it's backup tight end and maybe backup safety. Thankfully, you can find some of those guys. Exactly. Concerns about the defense, I think there are more of them. because the defensive depth in the secondary would probably be the number one thing you'd say, who the safeties are going to be. I mean, we got Marcus Epps and Anthony Harris as it currently stands. Yes.

Chukwasky Tard has not really played very much. Yeah, and he hasn't looked great when he's been here. He was out of camp for personal reasons. He's not a lock to make the roster. So that's important because when they signed him, I was like, oh, you know, he's played in the, like, if we're thinking about two high shells and da-da-da-da-da. And he played in San Francisco and he's played in this kind of defense where they can hide him a little bit. And if he's not locked to make the roster, then we get a whole different conversation.

So that, to me, if I were, what's keeping me up at night with Eagles, it would be that position group first and foremost because elsewhere on the defense, you kind of feel pretty good. Like if a corner gets hurt, maybe you're a little bit worried there. But with Maddox, Bradbury, Slay, it's like you got three at least. The front seven looks drastically different than it did a year ago. And you talk about that flexibility. I know every single person that owns a Brian Dawkins jersey in this city is like, don't fucking drop Hassan Redick into coverage. But I think you need a little bit of that. when you're playing defense these days.

So for the most part, I feel pretty good about the defensive players they have. And I feel pretty good about what that allows Jonathan Gannon to be, if we're getting back again to the conversation of being the truest version of yourself, having Jordan Davis and Hassan Redick and those guys, and one more year removed from the way Jim Schwartz used to play, I think allows them to do that. I think Jonathan Gannon is in a very similar position to Jalen Hertz. the off season was about on offense,

let's give Jalen Hertz what he needs so that we can properly evaluate him and be as good as we can this year. They spent the off season giving Jonathan Gannon what he should need. He wanted to be more flexible. Last year at the start of the training camp, they had a bunch more of these odd fronts.

They got into the season, it wasn't the personnel that he needed to play that. This team was built up front in the exact opposite way. Right. They played a four-man penetrating front where it's like you go get the quarterback every single play come hell or high water for how many years is Jim Schwartz here? 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

Yeah, it's a long time. It's a long time that they played a certain way. And that was their, I mean, pre-chip, that was their DNA. But they had to go after chip also. But yeah, so, so, I mean, you add Jordan Davis. That gives you a ton more flexibility to have those odd man fronts. You add Hassan Reddick, you know, this was Jean-Ard-Avri's role last year. I think the difference between Jean-Ard-Avri and Hassan Reddick is pretty significant.

That's a fair point. You add James Bradbury. That's an upgrade over Stephen Nelson. And Gannon, I mean, I like Jonathan Gannon. He seems very smart. The players love him. They finished 25th in DVOA last year. And the talent was better than 25th.

Like that was a significant underperformance. And for a lot of the season, they were like pretty uninspired. It was, you know, sit back and prevent the big play, which they did very well. You know, I think only one or two defenses in the league prevented fewer big plays. And then they were terrible in the red zone. Like if that's how you're going to play, you've got to be better in the red zone. That probably is the kind of thing that regresses to the mean year to year. So you would expect a bump there.

But I think if Jonathan Gannon, like if everything they did this offseason, doesn't lead to them being a top 10, top 12 defense. I don't know if he's going to be here next year. There's a lot of transition points and a lot of change last year when you look at that defense. It's they had personnel built around a different system. Jonathan Gannon had to run that defense before. Right. Jonathan Gannon comes from a place in Indianapolis

that the defense looks a lot different than the one that he wants to run. So it's not surprising that it might take two years to get to a place where you can do that, but now you've got to see it. Well, and I think Zach Berman, my partner on the beat and on Birds of Friends, I said I think the expectation is that Jonathan Gannon

is gone after this year one way or the other. You know, if they're really good. He gets a head coaching job. If not, maybe he's not the defensive coordinator. anymore. Yeah, I think that Jonathan Gannon of what he believes defensively are the right things to believe based on modern defense. You know, like, he wants to run a system similar to the one that Brandon Staley ran that has taken over the NFL. And it's fine to have that set of beliefs. It's another to see if they actually work in practice. But to your, to your Dawkins point,

it is a little bit like the passivity on defense is a little bit anathema. It doesn't have to be passive, though. It doesn't have to be passive. And I think last year, It was passive because, again, they were running like a mild diet version of it or like, you're like, can we get all the way there? And we can't do certain things in the back end because we don't trust our second corner and excuses, all of them. But now excuses that like you alluded to have been removed. And as for as for safety, like they like Marcus Epps a lot. I like Marcus Epps. I think he's the best safety on the roster, which which tells you more about the roster than it does about Marcus Epps.

but I think that is where there is the biggest variance if I'm looking like position by position on the team because yes, Darius Slay and James Bradbury is a great combination on paper but if you're just looking at like where could regression come or where could injuries come, that's an older group. Sleys 31. Bradbury had injury issues last year. Everywhere else like on the roster, the important players are relatively young or at least there's young depth.

So that's like where there could be some variance. And Anthony Harris is, you know, a well-liked player, but he's a declining player. After him, and you're talking about like Kavon Wallace, who was a fourth round pick a couple years ago and hasn't done much and might not make the team. Andre Sassaray, who's a special team. Andre Sachery. Yeah, again, were we going to, did you expect Calcatera and Sassaray on this podcast? I didn't, but I'm glad we got there. I'll get there.

I got to be blankenship if you really want to get crazy. I saw him carrying a bunch of Rita's Ices today. He was bringing them to his position group, I would assume. That's right. Yeah. Rookie duties. Yeah. They looked delicious.

It's not even that hot out there today, and I still really wanted one of those and might get one before I leave town. I think that this is another case of like maybe listen to, don't listen to what they say and watch what they do because I think that, you know, in this defense, you're probably asking less of safety than in some other defenses. So you might not want to put resources there. But they did also try to sign Marcus Williams. So, you know, I don't know. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I really don't. I think that the flexibility you need back there and having somebody that can do a little bit of everything,

if this defensive system is going to be the same as we've seen with the offensive system, where the DNA of it may be similar and the bones carry across team, but the different flavor you put on it is dependent on a personnel that you have. And if you have a really good safety, you can build things through that really good safety. What Derwin-Dames does for the Chargers allows that defense to do a bunch of. of different stuff that you wouldn't without him. So I think that it's all about what you want. Do you want to build a team that has really good safeties? If the answer is no, then how can you hide them? If you want to have a team with really good safeties, you could still play this

type of defense, put the little wrinkles on it, can be different. And then I think, I think Redick is really interesting. I'm curious what you think because, I mean, his numbers are insane, right? He's been one of the best five pass rushers in the league over the past two years. But he's not really, like, line up and go necessarily. Like, you do have to sort of scheme things for. him a little bit. And, you know, we haven't seen that from Gannon. I'm curious if there are, like, places that he's trying to pick up tricks from on that front. But, you know, he does, like, this is, was the second worst pass rush in the league last year in terms of sacks and quarterback hits. I know their, like, quarterback win rate was, their pass rush win rate was a little bit higher.

But I think that was because offenses knew they could get stuff quickly. I think it's sort of baked in. I believe that they were as bad as the number say on pass rush. So Redick is like, this circle player for if this defense can get to like a top quarter defense. If you look at the way that this defensive system and some of the other teams that have used it over the last couple of years have done some things, I think that having a set of players that can rush or cover, whether they be edge rushers or linebackers, to create a little bit of uncertainty in pure passing situations is going to be more to a premium now than it has been over the last few years. I think it is going to be a trend with the simulated pressures that we've seen around the week. And I saw Josh Sweat drop in the coverage a little bit today.

That's what worries me. And I don't think it should. I don't think it should. You just got to be, you got to survive. You got to survive. Even the team like the Saints, who the system is different, but they were one of the kind of innovators and teams who were driving that SIM pressure stuff forward. Cam Jordan's dropping into coverage. Marcus Davenport's dropping in the coverage.

You just got to be a body. You don't have to really cover anybody. You got to go into the flat and be a person with a pulse. And if you can do that, then it really does add flexibility to your defense. defense. So seeing like 50 coverage snaps from Josh Sweat this year probably sounds terrifying. I think the types of coverage that are going to ask him to play, he's not going to be manned up on running backs. Right. Like I think it's going to be okay. Okay. Well, the problem, yeah, I mean, my concern is do you need two of those guys, right? If the other one's Josh Swett,

who can't really do it, I get that he's a body. But then is it too, is it too predictable for the opposing offense in terms of who's coming? That's why. you need somebody that can literally just drop into the flat. And you see that into walls. Like, Markers-Demport and Cameron-Jordan are the best examples. And I know different defensive system. But I think there's a lot to learn from that. Those two guys are, they went 290 pounds.

Like, they're huge. And just doing it every once in a while. It doesn't have to be something that you major in, but creating that little blink of uncertainty and making teams waste their running back and all that stuff. I keep coming back to it. I think it's going to be a huge conversation with defensive football in the league this year. and just being able to put guys there that can do it a tiny bit to give yourself that flexibility, I think is important.

It's wild to me. Remember when we came on before the season last year and we're talking about the Eagles and we had no good. We had no idea what the Eagles were, like how good the Eagles were going to be. It's pretty crazy how good I feel about the Eagles right now compared to how good I felt about the Eagles a year ago. It's insane. And it's not just, you know, you have to give Howard Roseman credit because, it's not just like the team is better. Last year, heading into the season, there was like no youth that you were excited about.

And it was after all these years of borrowing from the future and committing to that Super Bowl core, I mean, last year they had like nobody on the roster who was a second contract player, basically. They had like no starters who were 26 to 29 years old, which should be, you know, the bulk of your football team to some degree. And then that that 2018 draft class really hit for them last year. And they signed Milata and Goddard and Josh Sweat and Avanti Maddox four players from a five-person draft class to second round. It's really the only one. It's really the only drafts. It's crazy.

And that coupled with what looked like a really good rookie class last year, you know, Devante Smith and Landon Dickerson and Milton Williams has like totally changed the DNA of this team so that even, even. even if it isn't Jalen Hertz and you drop somebody else in, it should be ready made for a few years. And what you got from the Wentz trade and what that gave you, I mean, and just he trading back with Miami. And the little thing, he pulls the right levers, man. And Howie Rosam is good at this. It's up and down. It's going to be up and down like it is for everybody. But the places he pokes and prods to make this team better, he's always trying to.

And I think that's what makes him good at this. And you know who else is better at this than I thought he was going to be? Nick Surrey-Hia. I didn't know exactly what kind of head coach he would be. I think in the impressions that I've gotten, the flexibility they've shown, and I think the self-awareness they've shown in a lot of moments, it's hard not to give him credit for the job that he's done over the first year. And who knows?

We're talking about sealing outcomes with J-1 Hertz. Let's talk about sealing outcomes with this staff. And when you have to break through, can they do it? I feel better about that possibility now than I did 18 months ago. Yeah, and I think, you know, he went from being the, like, you know, the Ted Lassau comparison. You know, he had this disastrous first press conference and, you know, he's got these flower analogies that everybody's getting on him for. But I think what you brought up before, like the switch that they flipped last year, not only in terms of changing the what they wanted to do on defense, which was not, you know, Siriani's DNA. I think that was like humbling to some degree.

but the self-awareness to do that and hand over the play calling to Shane Steichen, I think that's a really good sign. If somebody's willing to acknowledge when they've got a little bit too much on their plate and it's for the better of the team for him to step back a little bit, I think that's impressive. Yeah, I feel like this team's had in the right direction, and now it's going to be what is the quarterback and what does that mean for the short term and what does it mean for the long term?

And we will find that out here over the next three to four months. But just keep in mind that everything is very, very short term in Philadelphia. So if they start going to, then, you know, Siriani might be fired. We mentioned you'd be playing. We got Nick Seriani. We got interim coach, Shane Steishen, and then we have quarterback Gardner Minchu by like Halloween.

Yeah. I mean, that's not crazy. I know. And not in this place. And as Doug Peterson. Bo Wolf, thank you very much, my friend. It's very good to see you. It's very good to be here.

I appreciate you spending time. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Talk to you soon. All right. It's time now to chat with our Washington football writer. that's what I'm going to continue to do here. Ben standing.

Ben, how you doing, man? You're not going full command? I have not said it on the show in six months. I'm pretty sure I haven't. And I think that it's going to be a bit where I just don't say it. Is your objection you just don't like commanders or it's just too many names and a- No, I don't mind all the names. I think that Washington football team was really good.

I think that the branding was great. I think that the uniforms were great. I saw a guy walk past me today with a Washington football script hat. I was like, That's a great fucking hat. Why would you do this? I mean, it's just to sell more stuff, I have to assume. But it's a principal stand that I'm taking against the rebrand.

And it's going to take a lot to get me off of it. I didn't love the football team because it's just like, okay, what is? This is Charlie Brown stuff. But I prefer to commanders. Commanders is not exactly fitting in. We don't know what the call. What's the short name? It's not, you know, everybody's going with commies, which is.

Not great. Listen, you got to entertain yourself somehow when you do this every day. Absolutely. So, yeah, so this is the issue. So I'm with you. I would prefer a football team to commanders, but here we are. So this is a team. We did a show a couple weeks ago by the teams we can't quite figure out.

And I did not include the Washington squad on there and probably should have. Because as I was sitting there watching practice today and thinking about the personnel they have on both sides of the ball, this isn't a bad football team. Like, it's really not. You have John Dotson here now. I think that unlocks McLaurin in a way. And Curtis Samuel is out there. Even that's an improvement on where they were last year.

Offensively, I think that we don't give enough credence to how hurt they were last season. Beyond not having their starting quarterback for 16 of the 17 of the 18 games, and continue to get that wrong too. The four centers, a lot of moving pieces along the offensive line. If they're healthy up front this year and just overall with their entire offensive personnel, this is a pretty decent group. And then defensively, obviously Chase Young is a big question, but they bring back most of the pieces from a disappointing unit last year.

But I think that you could spin it in an optimistic way, where more continuity, better communication on the back end, the players we think are good, top to bottom, or at least pretty good. And you drop in a competent NFL quarterback in Carson Wentz. I know that there's a lot of mixed reviews, and I'm not a huge Carson Wentz fan. But what they can do offensively with him is much different.

than they could with Taylor Heineke. So when you consider all of those different factors, is this a 10-win team? Is this a wildcard team? That doesn't seem that crazy to me. It doesn't. I don't know how many teams in the league are in that. They could win seven.

They could win 10 range. This is definitely one of those. They are the most they could win seven. They could win 10 team, I think. Yeah. I mean, 100%. On offense, like, consider that at receiver, they have had no, other than Terry McLorn,

they've had nobody that really get excited about. during his three years, Curtis Samuel just didn't play last year. Now you have Samuel back. He's actually practicing, like he said. Jahan Dodson has looked really good in camp. That's three guys right there. Then in the backfield, you've got Antonio Gibson, J.D. McKissick, and the rookie Brian Robinson does look good.

That's a lot of playmaking right there. Just off that, that's not even factory in Logan Thomas coming off of the popliss. We haven't heard yet if it'll be by week one, but he'll be back at some point. That's a lot of playmaking on offense that they have not had in the past three years. And then whatever one thinks of Carson Wentz, he is an upgrade over what they've had. He can get the ball down the field. They haven't had that really in their arsenal. And their offense has been pedestrian to not good over the last couple of years.

So that's a huge upgrade, right? In theory, just collectively. Then you mentioned the defense. There's legit talent at all three levels. I think there's questions about their depth. And they're going to start at least game one without Chase Young. I'm going to guess a few more games. but there's like playmaking talent across the group.

The secondary is not flashy, but it's the most solid unit they've had here for some time. So there is a reason to be hopeful. On the other hand, there are the questions about Carson Wentz. The defense was really poor last year, to say the least, that they struggled in third down defense just in the preseason opener. It was a huge problem last year. So we'll see about that. So, yeah, this is a team that could absolutely contend for a wild card spot. And if you told me there in the seven win range, I wouldn't go.

Well, look, that's what they've been the last two years. One out of third. With the offense, I was just looking at the stats right now. They finished 21st in EPA per play offensively last year. And I floated this theory today, and I didn't get a lot of bites on it. I almost think that Scott Turner did too good of a job last year to get credit for the job that he did. Because they, again, they lost their starting quarterback in week one. They were on like four or five different centers, and they finished 21st in offensive EPA per play.

They were almost too competent for us to remember that they shouldn't be competent. And when you look at Carson Wentz, I think that there are two guys on this offense that the addition of them is just so you can function in the way that you want to. Carson Wentz is absolutely the number one. They went out and got Carson Wentz because Carson Wentz allows them to be the offense they want to be, even if the ceiling is capped. Brian Robinson is the same kind of deal. It's not like Brian Robinson is maybe going to be a superstar as a running back, but if Antonio Gibson is hurt again, it allows you. them to have a running back, which is something they didn't last year.

And I think that when you start stacking up those reasons to just be an NFL offense, and you combine that with what we think is a star and Terry McLaurin, a pretty good offensive line, and a play caller that consistently has gotten the most out of the pieces that he's been given, it's easy to start getting excited about this as could this be the 12th best offense in the league? And if the defense is top 10 again, what does that get you? That's not crazy to me. I agree. And I think you're spot on with Scott Turner.

I've been saying like this is the first year that Scott Turner is going to be under the microscope a bit because he has a real quarterback. You know, he was dealing with. Maybe. We'll see about that. He's got a guy that started a lot in the league. Can we say that much at least? You know, the first year he was dealing with a rookie Dwayne Haskins last year. He's dealing with basically, like he said, no Ryan Fitzpatrick after the first half.

It is so telling that in 2020, the best quarter. quarterback they had when he came into play was Taylor Heineke. When Taylor Heineke came in for those stretches late in the season and then in the playoff game, that was the best their offense looked. And then you get to last year and it's like, well, you can't be anything with Taylor Heineke. The areas that feel he can affect are too limited for you to play with him for an entire season.

I've been floating the theory. If for one game you had to pick Taylor Heineke or Carson Went, I might actually go with Taylor Heineke because I like the moxie aspect. But over the course of a season, it's just too limiting because of the lack of arm's true. size and things like that. But yeah, I think Scott Turner did a really good job. And you mentioned Brian Robinson. The best stretch his team was last year was during a four-game winning streak.

It was a lot of ball control offense. It was the best Antonio Gibson was out of the backfield all year. But he is not a guy that you can really, to this point, his career has not proven he can be a consistent runner of the football between the tackles, the way teams have wanted it out sometimes. I think they saw that stretch and said, we need to do something else. So even though they kept J.D. McKissick, and even though Gibson's productive, they went and got it between the tackles runner and Robinson. And I think that is exactly kind of what you were saying. It gives them a chance for their offense to be functional in that very specific way. I think Rivera is a bit conservative as a thinker relative to some other coaches, which is not knocking it. But I think he wants that element. Plus with Carson Went, who is, you know, his completion percentage is obviously not among the higher ones in the league. I think to have a running back in. Gibson as the main bell cow at all times who is inconsistent when it comes to finding holes and taking what's there. That could be a lot of more negative plays than you need.

And Robinson's going to give you some of those safer plays, but being productive combined with Wences upside from the deep ball in particular. You look at the receipt. We talk all the time on the show when you go from just guys that are fighting for back and roster spots to real players. A quarterback, it obviously makes the most difference. but at every other position, it starts to add up over time. Here are some of the guys that played more than 250 snaps at receiver for this team last year.

Cam Sames played 287. DeAndre Carter played 505 and Adam Humphreys played 653. Now you have Curtis Samuel for however long he's out there and Johan Dotson now playing those snaps. It's a huge difference. Yeah. Like it's a huge, huge difference. You can extend that to the offensive line. Cornelius Lucas plays 580 snaps last year at tackle.

You want to go inside. You had Eric Flowers, who's not here anymore, played 1,000 snaps, but then you had Keith Israel played 382 snaps. Tyler Larson played 185 snaps. Just guys that aren't going to be a part of the plan, hopefully. And if you can just start to have those mid-middling upgrades or marginal upgrades at all of those spots over a 17-game season with a quarterback that even if he's not great still expands what you can do.

I think that there is actual reason to be a little bit excited about what it can look like was someone like Scott Turner pushing the buttons. Absolutely. Like last year they drafted Diombi Brown in the third round. And he looked pretty good in camp and there was some thought, hey, could he be the guy opposite? That was one of the men. I thought he could be. Yeah.

No. Same here. And then he just didn't quite click last year. This year, he's the fourth guy and he's arguably the fifth if you say that Cam Sims is the fourth because he gives you a, more size. Their top three guys are all. They are small. When you see the first three guys stand next to each other, it's like, this is not a big group of people. Not, not at all. But like, that's the point. Like, they're not having to, I mean, if Diombe Brown does things, some good things great, but they have

other options. I mean, we'll see how Curtis Samuel makes it through the full season. But yeah, they have much better options. And this is ultimately the thing I think to tie it in with Carson Wentz. He doesn't have to, it's not all on him. He has better weapons and he did a year ago, with the Coles, doesn't have the same ground game, of course, but has better weapons. It feels like in totality. He just has to get the ball into the hands of their playmakers. He has to make the smart reads and all these things as well, but he doesn't have to do a lot, relatively speaking to, I think maybe what's been some of his problems in the past,

you hear hero ball and things like that. If they can get him into, I don't want to say go full Alex Smith and be overly conservative, he kind of was actually in the preseason game, the first game. But if he can just get the ball in their hands, they have the guy. to make the plays they have not had that in the past few years. Something that a member of the offensive staff told me today that that was really interesting. I'm sure we'll dig into this when we talk

about our, do our quarterbacks and new places show next week. A lot of the stops that Carson's been at before in Philly and with the Colts, he had a ton of autonomy at the line of scrimmage pre-snapped, get into different looks to change things, change protections. There was a lot mentally kind of

rattling around in his head before the play even started. Some of that has been scale back this year with Washington and just what Scott Turner asks of his quarterbacks. And I think that element of it where we're going to put less on him and really just let him play quarterback a little bit more, that's a good thing for Carson Wentz. And I also think that the parts of this offense that were kind of off the table with Heineke,

down the field, vertical shots off of hard play action, that puts your quarterback in a box. You're not asking him to do much. It's not conservative in the area of the field that he's attacking, but it's conservative with what's on his plate. that to me is the best way to get something out of Carson Wentz. When they were figuring, trying to decide who do we want to play quarterback for this team, the down-the-field vertical aspect of Carson Wentz's game was selling point number one.

And I think if they lean into that and try to simplify things a little bit, that's where you can maybe start to talk yourself into it. Carson Wentz last year, if you look at the traditional numbers, was not terrible. Colts finished 13th in EPA per play on offense. He threw 27 touchdowns and nine interceptions. there's a lot of luck involved in that. But if you're spinning this, you spin it in a way of saying, Frank Reich is a really good offensive play caller.

That's why we got that version of Carson Wentz. I think Scott Turner is also a pretty good offensive play caller. So if you can get a similar version to what you had from Carson Wentz last year, you're not going to be a top five offense, but you're also not going to be the team we saw over the last two seasons. I think that's enough for that. Yeah, interesting. And to your point there about the autonomy,

Ron Mavar just a few minutes ago, told us that Scott Turner is going to be on the sidelines this year. Yeah, he just decided that. As opposed to being up in the booth. So, you know, just, I don't know what you, maybe you know, I don't know, but like what percentage of offensive coordinators are upstairs versus not. I get it. You know, some guys like Tom Brady Rogers, like they don't, you know, they don't need

that constant conversation. But for a guy like Went, who obviously is coming off a couple of shaky situations. And, you know, I think it makes sense to get Scott Turner in there, whether it's for confidence building, whether it's to discuss what he's seeing or not seeing on the field face to face. I think that can make a big difference. So yeah, that's interesting. And you're right. Just let Carson play as opposed to having to think too much. Like even just out here in practice, when it's been hike, snap, throw, he's been better. When he's got time, especially when the pass rush starts to come, that's when things start to fall apart. So the less he has to sort of

think about initially is probably good for him, I would think. Moving the other side of the ball, what's the deal with Chase Young? Where are we out with Chase Young right now? Now, should I be worried about Chase Young? Because I kind of worried. Well, I mean, in terms of when he's going to be back, Rivera said he'll be out at least the first game. That said, when he originally made the comment, he mentioned the Pupplest, and he then said he thought the Pupplest was six games, which is now down to four. So he at least sort of threw in his head to some degree is thinking Chase Young could be out several weeks. Now, right now, I've been sort of saying three to six.

That's not a fact, but just based on my assumptions and talking to some folks. that's just to come back and play. That guy who, you know, he's an athletic, defensive, and a pass rusher, huge guy, but there's so much what his game is, a lot of explosiveness. It's not a lot of techniques at this point in his career. That was one of the problems I think he had last year. He just sort of was freelancing more as an athlete rather than as a tactician. And Ron DeVarres talked to him about some of those aspects.

So whenever he comes back, you're coming off an ACL injury, or ACL surgery. what is what are you it's not coming back is one thing being 100% so to speak is another we may not see that this year and the fact that he is coming off only one and a half sacks and was it nine games before he before the injury there's concerns on that front too so you know i'm not looking at case young this year as i won't say he's a bonus whatever he does but i'm also not saying he's got to leave the way defensively because i don't know what you're going to get from him both physically and then we have to see where he's at from just improving his craft yeah i And that's a concern because they really don't have a ton of guys behind him.

It's not like they got all these bodies walking through the door on the edge where, if he doesn't play, we got some good consolation guys. That just is not the case. They have a bunch of lottery tickets, but no, but it's guys who are picked in the sixth, seventh round, undrafted free agent types. F.A. Obata's been around for a minute. But yeah, it's not like they have some obvious here, you know, this guy can really do it or he's got that kind of, you know, starter upside.

FAA Obato is a guy that I've talked myself into more than once based on like two hard knocks, clips like a couple preseason reps it's like this guy's got some juice to him and it's not surprising that he's here because he did that in Carolina a little bit like you see all the through lines by the way there's so many fucking former panthers on this team that I've forgotten

about we're talking to Ron Rivera today he's like yeah you know Andrew Norwell and Trey Turner I know those guys from Carolina it's like I totally forgot both of them played for him at Carolina so it's the running joke some one of the radio guys in town accidentally somewhere the last few months called

them the commandthers. And like it's perfect. There are so many, the entire coaching staff is former Panthers. Obviously were there. And they are up and down, you know, the roster.

You know, like Corn Elder was on the Panthers at one point. Like there were more of them than you think at first glance beyond Curtis Samuel, who I think is the most obvious one. I mean,

even Heineke. Yeah. It's a lot. On the back end, this is a group that I was excited about last year. You know, they came in and I thought Cam Curl was really good as a rookie.

So much better than I thought he was going to be. They signed by him. McCain. They gave William Jackson that big contract. And it was not good. You know, the back end and the hiccups on the back end really doomed to this team because they finished, I believe, 28th in EPA per play on defense, but they finished 18th in success rate. And the gap that explains that is huge plays. And this team, 29th in EPA and then 18th in success rate, that's huge plays. That's the concern there. And I talked to Chris Harris today, their defensive back. coach and he said something I thought was really interesting.

He said two sentences in our room have been unacceptable this year. And it's I didn't hear it and I don't, I didn't know. And I think that speaks to how much more they're trying to hone the communication on the background because even if there were some of the same guys last season, Kendall Furby, being an example, he was moving outside and playing a different position. William Jackson was a new guy here. Bobby McCain was a new guy here. Camp Crowe was moving into a slightly different role.

there were a lot of moving parts. This year, there are not nearly as many. You have guys like McCain and Jackson who are going to do similar things to what they did last year. It's really the same group for the most part outside of what I think is a kind of fascinating tweak with Benjamin St. Juxt in the slot. But I think you absolutely, again,

could talk yourself into that group as a whole playing so much better this year than they did last season because they were pretty good in 2020. Yeah, I mean, William Jackson was a mess at the beginning of last year. He basically, I will admit it, He played man with Cincinnati, came here to his own, and he was basically lost. By the second half of the season, he was improving, and he says he feels miles better now, and it seems like that's the case.

Kendall Fuller, you know, the defense is always ahead of the offense in camp, but Kendall Fuller, if we're giving out a award for like MVP of the first 10 days of camp, I would give it to Kendall Fuller. Wow. Okay. That's good. That's cool to hear. Pretty unanimously.

He was really good. And, yeah, Cam Carroll is a rising star. and then Bobby McCain's solid. Those four, and the fact that all those four guys are back, two of those guys were brand new. And like you mentioned, Fuller, he had played more in the slop, moved more outside. I think the reason they're playing St. Juice inside is less about,

they think St. Juice is that guy and more that Kendall Fuller was just that good on the outside last year. And they want to keep him out there. Yeah. So even in two cornerback sets when they play with three safeties, I don't think they know who that third safety is yet. When they're playing in those looks, I think the idea is let's keep Kendall in the same spot. so he's not flip-flok back and forth.

Something that Chris Harris told me that, I thought was really interesting. Looking at the numbers now, he's right. Benjamin St. Jude's 2 is going to be the tallest nickel in the league this year at 6-3. He had a 93rd percentile three-cone drill with the combine. So his change of direction is better than you might guess for one of the tallest cornerbacks in the entire NFL. It's a fascinating experiment to move him in there because he literally is going to look unlike any other player in the league at that spot this year.

Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting, right? So like Rivera has said there's because there's becoming bigger target playing the slot. I'm thinking like, like Drake London. I don't know if that's exactly what Atlanta's going to do. But like- I think that is what Atlanta's going to do. I just wrote about this. This is like exactly what I have in mind. So watching it happen like this in practice is very fun. Yeah. So I think that's part of their thinking is that you've got these taller receivers or tight ends or what have you in the slot. They can combat that there. They played a lot of this Buffalo nickel. You know, you know, more of a three safety look last year with Landon Collins. He's out. They've got two young safeties. Derek Forrest and Percy Butler. Butler is their fourth round pick this year. I think one of those two guys eventually is the true Buffalo nickel. So that will give them a different look when they want to go just more, you know, having somebody closer to the line of scrimmage than in coverage.

Obviously the NFL having, you got to have guys that can cover. So I think they've got some options. My biggest concern with the secondary is the depth. The corner depth outside of the top three is rough. Yeah, it's very random to say the least. And the two safeties I just mentioned, basically Forrest didn't play last year. You had some injuries and mostly played special teams. So they don't have any real experience there.

So that's the big question, I think, is just the depth in the secondary. But the starting group, like I said, it's about as solid as I've had here in some time. The one area where I think they're the most worried is what linebacker looks like and what depth that linebacker looks like. Absolutely. I mean, Jamon Davis, uneven, I think is a generous way to characterize. his rookie season. Very much. Would you say that's the spot on defense they're most worried about?

Well, I think you have to be. I mean, I have, if I would have lost so much money if I had wagered every time I thought they were going to get another linebacker to go with Cole Holcomb or Jamon Davis, not just necessarily to start. They play mostly sub-packages, but just in case somebody has a sprained ankle or Jamie Davis, they just don't feel he can consistently stay out there. The two primary backups, David Mayo and Clee-Hudson, basically didn't play last year. until they had injuries in the COVID outbreak for them late in the year.

So that's their top four linebackers. So you're talking about Cole Holcomb, who's solid, a guy in Jamie Davis, who they drafted in the first round, he's got a lot of athletic gifts, was definitely a bit lost last year. There's signs that he's making some progress, particularly when he's close to the line to scrimmage and attacking the line. We'll see about what he looks like in coverage. But that's absolutely concerning to the point that, like, you know, they used a lot of fun looks last year, five defensive linemen.

six defensive backs. They may continue to lean into some of those odd looks because of the linebacker situation. They really need Jamon Davis to be good. He can't play just because he was a first round pick. He needs to play because he warrants playing time. If that happens, now we're talking about an interesting situation. Until we can see that, though, for sure, is definitely a concern. What is the area of his game that they're most concerned about or the places where they think he needs to make the most progress?

I think he basically only started one year in Kentucky. I don't think he had in college. I don't think he had just a ton of football starting experience. And I think he's an incredible athlete, but I think some of the football instincts are a bit raw still and still developing. That's why I'm saying in coverage, I think it'll be really curious to see. When they go with some of their bigger lineups, they've been bringing David Mayo in for those kinds of looks. So part of me was like, okay, that an indication that they think that that's where Jamie Davis is struggling. I think it's more of how do we get a third guy in and they don't want maybe David Mayo in coverage.

So I think seeing Jamie Davis in coverage is probably what I think they're most interested to see over time. I haven't had a chance at this moment to go back and watch the replay from the preseason game yet to see how he looked. But I think that's the question. Just his basic football instincts. The athleticism is off the charts. Does he sort of grasp where he needs to be kind of at any given moment? We've had this conversation often on this show about the dangers of drafting a linebacker in the first round. based off athletic testing because that's not what the position is unless you use guys in that

specific way. Devin White is allowed to play that way and he impacts the game because of it. It is very telling to me. I'm on mock draftable right now. Jamon Davis, 99th percentile broad job, 99 percentile vertical drop, 98 percentile 40-yard dash. He's crazy athlete. The number one comparison to him on the site is Baron Browning, who was drafted by the Broncos last year.

Baron Browning is no longer an off-ball linebacker. for the Broncos. He is an edge rusher. They have changed his position in order to utilize those athletic gifts. And I think that's very telling when it comes to how you unleash somebody that has that athletic profile because instincts no longer matter. You're going after the quarterback. That's what you do. So Jamie Davis's development and kind of education because they're not going to be able to use him that way. I think he's definitely something to watch. We talked about how there's so many Carolina people here. Ron Rivera is a bit of a creature of habit. His first year here, the linebacker situation was pretty bleak.

There just was no real upside. I think he, and he's obviously, they had a really interesting defensive line group with the four first round picks. I think as a guy that had Luke Keekely and Thomas Davis, he was, and a guy who played the position,

I think he was determined to figure out a linebacker that year. And it broke down that with the 19th pick, Jamie Davis is what they did. And I think they forced it a bit. They were playing him in a middle linebacker. They immediately at the end of the season were like, yeah, that's not going to be the thing.

He's not going to do that. they were telling us that they were going to go get another linebacker ultimately decided they'll go with Cole Holcomb as the mic and Jamie it'll be outside. But you're right. Even just watching in practice, he seems more comfortable closer to the line of scrimmage and attacking that way. But they haven't made that type of full change there. And that's why I'm interested to see what he can do in coverage. Because if he can do enough on there, then that's different. If he just has got a guy who's going to be closer to the line of scrimmage, well, then what?

like now we're maybe talking about something different. It's a different position. We're asking them that guy's completely different. A lot of questions about this team, a team that I think is more of an uncertainty and an enigma than I might have thought at first glance. And I think that starts with the quarterback, but it extends to a lot of this roster

and just their timeline in general. Like at the end of the year, what are we going to be saying about this team? There was so much optimism after year one of Ron Rivera. Last year they take a pretty big step back. I think that lack of expectations has kind of been something that Ron Rivera can wield now. in a way that he couldn't last season.

So a lot of stuff to kind of pour over here. Ben Standick, thank you very, very much for the time, my friend. Always great to chat with you. Appreciate it. It's good to see you. Likewise, man, great to see you in person. Enjoy your travels and look forward to talking during the season. Sounds good.

All right. It's time now to visit with our Steelers writer here at the athletic. Mark Cabali, Mark, thank you very much for doing this. I am glad to see you and made it down to lovely La Trobe, Pennsylvania. It's great to be here. I enjoy it. Says the guy that's only been here one day. Listen, that's very true. That's very true.

It's interesting to be here in watching this team practice just because it really is a new era, right? I mean, just so many different things. The quarterbacks being the number one element to it, but you have new defensive coordinator. An offensive coordinator that while he's in his second season kind of feels like his first in some ways because they ran the Ben Rafflesberger offense last year. And I find that fascinating when you have these teams kind of moving into a new era that have been around for a lot. while. I kind of feel like the chiefs are starting one of those transitions this year without Tyreek Hill. I think that the Packers are doing that a little bit without Devante Adams. And this is a team that's done it a lot in the past, so they're kind of a little bit more used

to it. I want to start with the quarterbacks because we had a little bit of news over the last 24, 36 hours or so. Kenny Pickett, moving to take some snaps with the second team, which you wrote about earlier this week. Matt Hannada, the offensive coordinator we just mentioned, said that it's part of the plan. It was not based on how we played in the preseason. So I would like you as someone who has been here every day to kind of characterize what the quarterback derby looks like at this stage on August 16th. Well, I think it hasn't changed much, to be honest with you. I think from day one back in May when this said plan was put into place by Tomlin, Canada, or whoever, it was going to be Mitch Rubisky. They had him earmarked as the starter from day

one, in my opinion, after seeing what's happened the past three weeks here and even over the spring and you look today Kenny Pickett took some first team reps with the two minute drill I think that now means we're about 10 total snaps since OTAs that Mitch Trubisky has not taken

with the first team so what does I tell you it'd be ridiculous to think over the next two weeks that they're just going to throw somebody else in there it was always between if Kenny Pickett was going to be ready enough to jump up to the number two they felt confident enough

or if they need to stay with Mason. If Mason Rudolph, he took that a little step, and it looks like that's what the process they are in right now, determining whether they feel comfortable moving forward. Is Kenny Pickett is your number two in Cincinnati, rather than a guy who's been around five, six years, Mason, Rudolph, who's actually, and I know people listening to this, might not be gaffs, but he's been playing pretty well.

He had a great spring, good summer, decent preseason game. He's right in the mix there. It's going to be what they prefer right now. And I think the only battle is if Kenny Pickett's going to be the two or the three. But then you have to worry if he's the three. How does he mature over this year? We saw that with Mason. Rudolph, they made him a three.

He was inactive. Didn't get any reps during the year. And he never developed. That's what you have to be careful. So that's my question. What do you lose in the grand scheme of things by making Kenny Pick at the starter maybe a little bit before he's ready. Isn't it more valuable if he's going to be the guy who's going to be here for hopefully the next 10 years

for him to kind of take his lumps, get in-game reps? What is it, what are they trying to accomplish and what is it not allow them to accomplish by having him be on the bench and letting Mitch Tribesky start when we kind of know what Mitch Trubisky is? I'm just wondering what the plan is. It doesn't really, it's not really clear cut to me. Maybe if Pickett was the guy, the only guy they had, but you had to address the quarterback in free agency. You had to.

So now that makes a different dynamic where you can play a round and then bring a long picket slowly. I know, what is it, 24 now? He's played a whole ton of games here, but how many quarterbacks, you know, second half of the first round actually play a lot their rookie year?

Probably not a lot. They get in at times. I mean, there's been horror stories. There's been some successes. But I think they just want to make sure he's here for, you know, in 2040 rather than pushing him in 2022 to make him uncomfortable and not ready. And it doesn't look like he's overwhelmed out here.

That Seattle game was a little iffy. I mean, a lot of short passes, a lot of stuff that a lot of quarterbacks can make. But he shows some moxie, for the lack of better words, for being able to lead him back here. But I just don't think 20 years without a first-round quarterback, I just think Mike Tom has come up with this. He's never had a quarterback derby has always been bent. I think he just wants to take it. So if you had to throw a picket in there, I don't think it would be terrible, but they have the choice.

So I think that's why. I think that makes total sense and that they don't have to be in a hurry. This is a team that they believe in their plans here. They believe in the way that they operate. It's not like Mike Tomlin is lacking job security. Like they can afford to kind of play this slow and have a three, four year plan be the most important thing. I totally get that.

With that in mind, I'm curious what your answer to this would be. What is a successful season for the 2022 Pittsburgh Steelers? You're asking me or what Mike Tomlin would say? You can give me both answers. It's successful for me. For Mike Tom is always going to say championship. That's what we do here. Let's live in the real world instead of Oz.

If you really, really, you know, put his feet to the fire, I think he'd happy with a playoff berth. I mean, it's very similar to last year. But, you know, playing better, continuously getting better as a season going on. and be able to make the playoffs, that maybe be in the run for the divisional title. That might be a little bit over what I'm expecting to be. I mean, the AFC's tough. We know the AFC's tough. Division's tough.

So if you're looking at 500, if you get over 500 and not make the playoffs, I think that would be the best case scenario. But there, I think playoffs, the big thing is continue to get better. see improvement with the offensive line, see improvement with the, you know, George Pickens as the season goes on, have that defense. I mean, that defense is good,

but, you know, they got a bunch of new voices in the room now. You know, it was Keith Butler, Mike Tomlin. That was Mike Tomlin, Tara Austin, Brian Flores. So there's going to be a lot to be worked out. But, hey, Mike Thomas never had a losing record. Have you ever known that? I did know that. So I'm going probably 8, 8, and 1.

That's my theory. I and I it makes sense to just say you know what this is kind of like a pit stop here right you're you're putting on some new tires and maybe you're falling a little bit behind as a result of it but you're getting ready for the long run and I do feel that even being out here and you don't want to read too much into it but I when you go to a bunch of these they all have a different feel to them and there are two moments from today's practice where I got reminded of kind of what it's like here and they were there were one of them was watching one-on-ones down in the, near the goal line. And Minka Fitzpatrick was covering George Pickens, one-on-one consistently, almost the entire period. I think they probably went against each other five or six times. It was wild to watch. And he did a pretty darn good job.

George got him a couple times. He got George a couple times. And afterwards, Mike Tomlin said they were intentionally doing that. And he told me, he said, Minkin needs that every once in a while. He needs that juice during practice. And watching that level of competitiveness, they spent. spent more time doing one-on-ones than most practices that you'll go to. This is a two-hour and 20-minute practice. And the other moment was near the end when they were doing the two-minute

drill. Deontay Johnson and George Pickens were on one sideline, just barking across the field at Cam Hayward and Minka Fitzpatrick. Deante Johnson was trying to shame the Steelers' defense for not playing man coverage and playing too high safeties. I'd never really consider that as a strategy, challenging the manhood of the team you're playing against to make them change what they're doing. But watching that happen and understanding that that's kind of the incubator that they have here is that it's always going to be like that every day. You have those type of guys in the building, even if they are taking a pit stop. Right or wrong, I just kind of believe that they're going to figure this out because this is the type of place that is. Do you think I'm overstating that?

No, no. I think what the big thing is is Mike Tomlin, this is how he coaches. He creates a competitive battle any way he can. I'll give you an example last week. It was just one-on-one line drills between the Marvin Liel, the defensive rookie tackle, and John Liglou. I probably never heard of it. No, John Lleggle is a new one for me. He did start five games at Guard last year. And they went on

the Llew won, one, Leal, when buzzer hits we're going to the next period. Tom's like, nope, nope, nope, nope, I need to see one more knowing darn well what it was going to happen here. big hit standoff all of a sudden here comes a big fight you know because he knew the competitive juices he wanted to see him come out on any chance he has to create competitive an out there he does and that trickles down as you saw minkin and cam big talkers you know what on the other side pickens and dionte johnson aren't big talkers that was kind of surprising here's another one

about competitiveness of what tomlin creates these drills out here are associated with food You hear this one? No, I've not heard about this. If it's seven shots, if it's two-minute drill, any type of live period, he says if the offense wins or the defensive wins, they get to choose what they have for dinner. One gets regular staple cafeteria food. The other one gets lobster, crab, and all that works. So every single practice, it goes up there and says, defense wins.

You get the lobster or all the delicacies. Everybody else got to get your ham sandwich. And it's been a battle for that. Has it always been that way? No, that's something he brought up this year. He does not like to talk about it. He tried to ask him and he denies. He goes, I don't know what you're talking about.

But, you know, you were here this afternoon. You can see what's out in the cafeteria. Once again, just a way to keep guys engaged and the competitive. That's why he likes it out here. You just get tired of going against John Legluge 275 times that you're just going to smack him around and create a fight and create. He just loves it. 15 years in, and you can have all your criticisms you want of Mike Tomlin is,

but the guy is motivated. He's motivated, and you never, you know, you see coaches like, they've been around this long. They're like, you know, go through the motions. Not this man. When I asked him about the Minket thing, he seemed delighted. He didn't want, he wasn't effusive about it because Mike Tomlin rarely is in those moments, but he seemed delighted at the idea of why they were doing it in the fact that it happened.

Hey, George Pickens made a couple plays. And when you saw how we do the post-game media after practice, right behind, we were waiting for the setup. He looks to me and a couple other old guys around and goes, I know what you got old scribes are looking for. He goes, you're not getting it on Pickens. And he walks up, but the first question was Bob Pickens. He goes, got a long way to go.

He wasn't getting the satisfaction of what he did in practice that day. You've watched him every day. It is a little bit different watching George Pickens right now, was a rookie. Yeah, yeah, you don't see, I mean, with rookies in my experience here, and there's a lot of good rookie receivers here. You'll see splashes of it here in time. This is every day.

Yeah. Every day. He had an out and up touchdown. That was a ridiculous one-on-one against making the Reds zone. One-on-on-ones, and he's catching balls with one hand like this, and they translated into the game. And, you know, all of our followers are saying, yeah, you're full beans, you know, George Pickens.

I've heard this before. And like, no, he's a little bit different, man. He does it consistently. every single day and the routes are good for a guy so young. And big. The high point, and did you see him block the other day? He drilled some defensive back from Seattle and went right on his can and he was playing press.

I mean, I don't know why he was. I'm sure we can figure out why he was a second round pick with the injury and some off-field, but man, some people must be kicking themselves right now. Watching him move is just different. He just, watching him catch the ball and how smooth and fluid he is. And you're out here for 10 minutes and it's like that guy just looks different doing this. and it's hard not to get excited about that. On offense, the receivers, the roles are going to be interesting.

Chase Claypool playing inside a little bit more, but Deonté George Pickens Chase Claypool, and they're an 11 person on those, the three guys out there. We know that. We know Najee's going to play running back. What other spot, I guess only leaves a couple, are you most worried about that's not the quarterback on offense? Offense.

Probably the entire offensive line. That's a fair characterization. That's probably my answer as well. We'll be a little bit more specific. The left tackle, chooks the core for? I mean, Dan Moore's second-year guy at Texas A&M played all last year. He's continuously getting better. He gets beat from time to time.

I think their interior could be okay with a couple new additions with Daniel and Kevin Dotson slash Kendrick Green. And Mason Cole was, I think, a little underrated. I liked what he saw, maybe underrated compared to Kendrick Green. But, man, they gave Chook's Accour for $30 million bucks in the offseason three-year deal. And, you know, he's good against second teamers. when T.J. Watt's out there, it's like, it's like you going against your five-year-old kid. Maybe that's T.J. Watt or not.

So you saw against Seattle there's just too much pressure on these quarterbacks, these young quarterbacks, and that's the problem. They were able to run the block, but maybe it's cohesion. I don't know what it is. They got a new offensive line coach. I was going to say a new offensive line coach this year. There's a lot of moving pieces.

They have one, two, three, four and three years now. I mean, that offense line is. I mean, coach has just been a revolving door. That's probably the biggest thing. And maybe, but if Nagee Harris gets hurt, I mean, that's any team, you know. If Derek Henry gets hurt, you see what happens to the Titans. So there's not much quality depth behind Nagee. But other than that, you'd have to look at the offensive line.

They just need a pass block better. Do you have a sense of what might be different on defense with Terrell Austin pulling the strings rather than Keith Butler, who was here for a while? I think first thing is he's in a little of predicament of figuring out what they're going to do with their inside linebackers. Because Miles Jack's pretty good. You can tell he still has it. Devin Bush, Roberts Valene, not very good right now. So what do you do?

You can't inquire anybody that's worth a darn at this point of the season. They tried that with Joe Schobert last year and see where that got him. You might have to do things you don't want to do. I mean, you may have to play more. Terrell Edmonds in the box as a dime linebacker. Marcus Allen can do stuff like that. So it's going to be interesting how they go about that play. But a lot of it's going to be the same.

I mean, it's going to be sub-packages 80% of the time, as always, like the league says. And they're going to rely on their outside guys of pressure. Now that front five will say it with Alu Alu-Alu Hayward, Ogun Jobi. Most people probably don't even know he, most people probably don't even know he plays. for him with Watt and Highsmith, man, they're going to bring the pressure. Those are some, and that's the big thing. Last year, they lost

to it and Alu Alaw, and they couldn't stop the run. They were awful. That's going to be an emphasis of stopping the run. You're going to have those guys up front like Ogun Jobi. He could do it, but acts of going crazy off the reservations. I don't think so, because I think Terrell Austin

had a lot to say in what happened last year. So it's just going to be fine-tuning. what he likes it to with the input from floors, which is obviously a great mind, defensive mind himself and Tomlin. So that's probably what I'm looking forward to most, how those guys match those three put together game plan. And then the other spot,

I think that there are probably some question marks. Corner, Levi Wallace is here now, Kelly Weatherspoon, I mean, those guys on the outside with Camp Sutton on the inside. That feels like they're betting on, again, their defensive infrastructure to get the most out of that group. No studs.

Yeah. Cam Sutton's above average. He can just play every single position there is. So he's pretty solidified as the cornerback slash nickel slash dime, depending what they're in. Levi Wallace, a little underrated, probably has a chip on his shoulder. Witherspoon had a tremendous last month of the season last year, three, four picks.

Big guy can hit one of those Seattle corners, man. Yeah, you know, I don't know what happened in Seattle. I don't know what happened anywhere else, He was inactive for seven weeks last year before he finally caught on. Once again, he got a bunch of number twos for a lack of better terms, but not really any of that shutdown guy yet. That's just a way they're going to approach as a team defense, get the ball out early and those guys will be good enough.

So, yeah, but that's probably something you might need to worry about a little bit if you're on the defense. I mean, the depth at outside linebackers non-existent, and the abilities of the cornerbacks are, little iffy. I'm sure we'll get to the end of the year if they stay healthy, which obviously did in last year. They'll be eighth in defensive DVOA and we'll just be wondering how they did it. It's just like it almost seems like an inevitability with this team where if the guys stay healthy, we just get to a place where there's a top 10 defense. And again, that's

probably giving my Tomlin a decent benefit of the doubt, but I truly believe he's earned it. T.J. What? We just skim over him. He takes four snaps of practice and has three sacks. I mean, he's just absolutely dumb. You see what. where it is he's 32 33 and he's just some beast out there calling say i sacked you i sacked you he doesn't play a lot either and i think miles jack is a pretty important development here and micka vetspatrick is one of the highest paid safeties in the league i said something the other day on twitter that don't be shocked of minka is in the conversation for defensive player you're at the end of the season people call me crazy but that's it always happens but you can see

they can put him in a spot where he can make some splash plays and he's just you're I saw how he covered Camper, Connor Hayward, tight end. And the way he just used his technique and just dip right under him, under the middle of the field, and intercepting around 40 yards, he can make those plays.

And they're going to put him in position to do that. So they have one of those top five defenses. A big part is Minka. I think he's relaxed. He got his money. He's going to not be that, you know, deep safety that's just, boring and they could throw the other side of the field and keep totally take him out of the game

which they did maybe two years ago so I think he has an all he has a real good chance of having a really really good year mark abali really appreciate the time sir very good to see you we'll talk to you on the road for sure all right thanks all right guys thank you so much to all of our writers that chatted with us today thank you to jeff thank you to beau thank you to mark thank you to ben hope you guys enjoyed those conversations we will be back tomorrow. Really looking forward to that show. We're going to chat with our friend Dan Orlovsky from ESPN about some of the

quarterbacks. We need to see take a step forward this year and what that might look like and what it should look like if those teams are going to get what they want out of those guys. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I very much appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show. It's where you can read the work of all of the people that we talk to today.

We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.