The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Fallout from the Dolphins' Tampering Investigation and Takeaways from 49ers Camp

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Charles Robinson joins Robert Mays to break down the punishment handed down to the Dolphins after the league found that the team had impermissible contact with the agent of Tom Brady and Sean Payton. Robert also checks in from 49ers camp with beat writer Matt Barrows. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Tuesday, August 2nd. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys today. A little bit later, our Niners writer at the Athletic. Matt Barrow is going to join us for a check-in for 49ers camp where I was earlier this week. Excited for you guys to hear that conversation.

Before we do that, though, we got some news. A terrible time for news as every NFL writer in America is on a plane or in a car or doing something like that over the last week. So there's a reason that it's a few hours since when this broke, from when this broke until the way that we're going to respond to it. But to help me break down everything happening with the Dolphins investigation and the punishments handed out today. I am thrilled to welcome.

Yahoo's Charles Robinson. Charles, thanks for doing this, man. I know that you're in some nondescript hotel room somewhere in America the same way that I am. Yeah, I came up to Cleveland thinking, you know, this is the big story this week. And there's been another story already in true NFL fashion, the biggest story ever, which is, you know, or at least so far this young preseason, obviously the Sean Watson suspension. But we can't even get to the appeal without another story sweeping it, you know, under the rug, at least for a moment now. Yeah, the Miami Dolphins investigation was, you and I were just talking about this. Like, I'm literally throwing some stuff in a suitcase about to head to the airport in Minneapolis.

and all of a sudden it hits my email and I'm like, what the hell? Instantly, I'm like, oh my God, this is a, yeah, this is a pretty big deal. There's no doubt. It's fascinating to be at a training camp practice when something like this happens where you just kind of feel it start to spread to everyone that's there. I remember this happened a couple times. I remember being in Minneapolis when AJ Green got hurt. Remember that when he was on that shitty practice field during Bengals camp?

Yeah, yep. Just that news kind of trickling out. I remember that. It's always a really interesting phenomenon to kind of watch in real time. So for everyone who doesn't know, I'm assuming if you're listening to the show, you probably know the nuts and bolts of this. The league handed out discipline today and reaction to and retaliation to the investigation that they did into the dolphins over the last year or so since the Brian Flores lawsuit

became public and since we started to understand the tanking allegations and everything that was mentioned in that lawsuit. Based on the league's findings, the dolphins will forfeit their first round pick in 2023, which is a huge thing to lose based on where this team is at. We can get into that a little bit later. And a third brown pick in the 2024 draft. Their owner, Stephen Ross, is suspended through the middle of October. Seems like a weird amount of time to be suspended.

I don't really know why that would be the case, whether why it wouldn't be the whole year or a longer suspension. I guess we can get into that a little bit. He's not allowed to be at the Dolphins facility. May not represent the club at any team or event. He may not attend any league meeting prior to the annual meeting in 23 and he has fined $1.5 million. There are some other things associated with this, but for the most part, those are the big

time allegations, the big time punishments that have been handed out. When you saw this, Charles, what was your first reaction? Well, I thought the timing, as you said, the mid-October suspension into the regular season was interesting because it overlaps almost perfectly with Deshaun Watson's six-game suspension. Interesting. I mean, that's obviously a total conspiracy, but I just think it's interesting that a six-game suspension gets handed down. And when you look at the exact time frame of when Stephen Ross would be allowed to return,

it would be essentially, if the league doesn't appeal the Deshaun Watson decision by Sue Robinson, it would be essentially returning from suspension at the same time. I guess what struck me is, I mean, there are a couple of different things. Number one, to have tampered with Tom Brady twice, you know, both with the New England Patriots and also Tampa Bay Buccaneers. if I was Robert Kraft, I'd be pissed. If I was the Glazer family, I'd be pissed. You know, this is particularly Robert Kraft.

You know, he was going through a difficult time trying to keep the Tom Brady-Beld Belichick marriage alive at that point. And to have another fellow owner basically interfering in that marriage should really upset Robert Kraft. And I would tend to think that owners can be punitive. I'd be curious to know how Robert Kraft treats the situation moving forward. So that was interesting to me. And then really just kind of looking at the totality of it, I thought it was really interesting that essentially the league came out and said, hey, you know, this is me paraphrasing here. But everything that Brian Flores said basically was true, except that one thing that affects the integrity of our league, which is this idea that Stephen Ross brought up this, you know, $100,000 per loss, quote unquote, offer to incentivize losing, which the league, the language of it was.

so interesting. He didn't outright deny that something along those lines was said. They just kind of smudged whether everybody sort of understood what was being said. And oh, by the way, the owner wasn't serious and it wasn't received in a serious manner. I'm like, okay, so an owner just plops out this idea of incentivized losing. And by the way, the league also said, yeah, he did also mention that he thought the draft position should take priority in the franchise. It's just really interesting that they validate everything that Brian Flores says, except for the one thing that fundamentally strikes at the cornerstone of the league, actually being a viable, non-fixed entity. When I read it, the idea that they're going to treat this with an LOLJK, he didn't really

mean it as the rationale for why they're not punished for it is incredible. And I think that goes to a larger conversation about how optics plays into this whole thing. This sort of stuff probably happens more than we think where there are backroom dealings and people talking about these sorts of things and the way the league summed up their findings today they essentially said the reason these punishments are so severe

is that this was so brazen and unprecedented in how unrepentant they were about doing it that we had to punish them. So the only reason this punishment is handed down and it's so strict is because it was so bold and so ridiculous what they were. were doing and they weren't willing to punish them for the alleged tanking because again it makes

the league look bad. So it was almost like, come on guys. Like really you're going to do this? We have to kind of give you this sort of punishment because of how bad it is. So I think all of that, like the severity of it and how it makes the league look and when they have to step in on these sort of issues, that to me was one of my bigger takeaways from the entire reaction. Well, and the fact that they pointed out, not only was it brazen, but it was the owner. An owner was brazenly involved in this. It wasn't a bunch of dead drops and burner phones and go-betweens. There were other individuals obviously involved in another executive as well inside the Dolphins organization.

But Stephen Ross took an active role in this. And that's what the league made clear in this release. I also thought it was interesting. The league said, you know, this idea of draft priority, you know, draft taking, draft position taking priority over I guess wins or losses. Brian Flores had been concerned about that. And Stephen Ross never brought it up again after Brian Ross did what? Put it into writing.

I mean, like, you're sitting there and you're going, okay, so yeah, that kind of makes sense. You would probably spook your owner if the owner is kind of giving you the wink, wink, nudge, and then you're putting it literally in a memo inside the building that, hey, this is happening and now I'm uncomfortable about this. Yeah, that'll shut the owner up pretty quickly because they know at that point what's on the line. But, you know, as you said, I mean, just the brazen nature of it, I actually thought, I'll be really, I thought a first and a third was light. I absolutely thought it was light because not only did you tamper with Tom Brady twice in two different franchises, you tampered with Sean Payton, the head coach.

So you basically, in a way, you tampered with three different organizations over a series of years. Okay, it wasn't just, hey, a one-time thing. you kind of were off your rocker for one summer and you, you know, take your shot. No, this happened in 2019. And then it happened to get in 2021 in this big, you know, sort of elaborate sense. And in the process of all this, it also outed another thing. Tom Brady's retirement was bullshit. It was total bullshit.

It's all out now. Everybody knows now what happened. This is the league lending credence to everything that had been put out there about, hey, there were some hijinks going on with Brady and the Dolphins. Yep, that's exactly what happened. And what that makes me think about is, what's going to happen after this season? What does this mean about if Brady wants to kind of control where he may be able to go next, if he does want an ownership stake with a team, if he wants his next act to maybe include having

some sort of position within an organization while also getting to play quarterback, are we going to get to a point next offseason where if he wants to play, it's open season, where somebody's going to try to give him a ridiculous offer in order to coax him to their team. And the same with Sean Payton. Like the fact that these guys were potentially available and they would even almost entertain these sort of options and these sort of roads. What does this mean for next spring? That's the first place my mind goes. Yeah, I thought initially when before the findings, this investigation came out, it was one of the things that we sort of talked about like on the podcast. I think I might have written about it months ago was, hey, this may not be over in terms of Brady and the Dolphins.

Like, you know, just because this appears to have been scuttled at that time, my thought process was, well, you know, the dolphins are loading up. They bring in Tyreek Hill. You know, you have a set of, or you at least have two wideouts there that play very much into the kind of strengths that Brady brings to the table. You're retooling. And it would be a very, I still think a very attractive position if Tom Brady decided, hey, free agency, I want to take another bite at the apple. And even though it might be Mike McDaniel, not. Sean Payton, that's still a destination for me potentially, Miami. Remember, he has a home, obviously, in Florida, near, not far. I think it's like, I literally think it's less than a half an hour. I think it's like a 20, you know, 20 minute driver, 20 miles from the Miami Dolphins facility, he and Giselle. And, but now with this, I don't know. I think, I think given the level of involvement that was exposed here, you have to feel like that was probably iced. And maybe it played into, obviously, television deal that Tom Brady's got in place now. It gives him options in case if he really wants to go Miami and it's completely off the table now because of the look, the optics of it,

he's obviously got a television deal waiting there for him. Or as you said, any other number of franchises that now know, maybe we only need to carve off a piece of management for Tom Brady at some point to get him come here and play quarterback in 2023. Kind of reading if he leaves and picking up the breadcrumbs with San Francisco and Tom Brady, if Kyle Shanahan wanted him as part of what they were doing offensively. Now Mike McDaniels in Miami, the fit there potentially makes sense. And now the question becomes, what are the dolphins going to do a quarterback? Because I literally had a conversation with Lindsay Jones this morning.

And we were talking about, all right, if Tua doesn't work out, the dolphins have two first round picks next year. They would have the ammunition to potentially go chase. Not anymore. I mean, and that's a huge deal. Because them having that potential pivot point next year, if Tua doesn't work out and they say, all right, we want to trade up for someone. or is it going to be like it's been the last couple years

where one or two of these veteran guys shakes loose and we can go make a play for somebody. Sapping 50% of your high level resources to do something like that, that's a real thing to your long-term planning if you're the dolphins. Yeah, and by the way, Tyreek Hill's opinion aside, that now means that your former head coach Brian Flores tried to replace you with Deshaun Watson, and it means your owner tried to replace you with Tom Brady.

So your owner and, no, albeit former head, coach, but still, those are two very important individuals inside the franchise. And you have to think, you know, Chris Greer, obviously the general manager there, he's along, he's in the side pocket for this entire thing. So not great if you're Tua sitting there thinking, okay, well, it feels like my owner doesn't like me. Although, okay, well, geez, he was trying to replace me with Tom Brady, at least. And, you know, Deshaun Watson's a hell of a player, albeit with, you know, plenty of issues

swirling around him right now. But, yeah, too, I would say that the writing's on the wall. But in a weird way, as you said, this might help them because it takes an asset off of the table that would have given them, I think, an opportunity depending on where they would have fallen in the draft to have two first round picks. So let's say, you know, the season doesn't pan off the way that they want it. You know, if they're in a certain position with their own pick, you know, you can package those picks, try to move up into another spot.

But now that's taken off the table. and in a weird way sort of strengthens the ability of two at a stick because the Miami Dolphins can't move off of McCoy to season. Do you feel worse about Mike McDaniel's prospects there in the light of this? No, I mean, I don't look, whatever was going to happen with Mike McDaniel before this, I mean, it's not going to change after this, right? I mean, it's football. Football is football. He's there. you know, it's not going to change the offense.

It's at least not in 2022, right? He's still got the pieces that he's got. The scheme's going to be the scheme. The quarterback's going to be the quarterback. So whatever he was going to do in 2022, that doesn't change. Obviously, moving forward, his ability to make a change at quarterback, that's what is necessary. You know, that's now changed.

But it's, I have to, if I'm him, I'm sitting there. I'm thinking like, man, I don't have anything to do with this. I'm glad, like, this isn't, you know, and I have a job, frankly, because of the fact that the Sean Payton situation didn't work out. That's kind of my question, though. Does he feel kind of shitty about being a consolation prize or it's like, whatever? I got one of 32 jobs. I'm going to take this and run with it.

I can understand either way. I mean, I would say yes except for, and I would put two in the same boat. Like, Sean Payton's not a nothing coach, right? I mean, like, he is a coveted coach. I granted one, one Super Bowl. You can say whatever you want. Sean Payton is a very good football coach. We like Sean Payton in this podcast.

He's a very good football coach. I think you can feel okay going, hey, it's a track record guy. I get it. And oh, by the way, you were doing it in a package sense. You're trying to bring in Sean Payton and Tom Brady, who, by the way, Sean Peyton wanted in New Orleans when he thought, hey, you know, Drew Brees might retire a year earlier than he did. Drew Brees might go into television a year earlier than he did.

We're going to make a run at Tom Brady. Well, Drew didn't retire. So Sean Payton was never able to put that run together. This all makes sense. Don Ye's the agent for both of them. Clearly Dony gets named in this investigation. So he was a conduit and all of this. I don't think if you're to a or, you know,

if you're being replaced by Tom Brady, you're being replaced by Sean Payton. If you're either of those individuals, they're going, yeah, it doesn't feel great, but at least they're known commodities and people that are going to be, at least were coveted this year. And Sean Payton, whenever he comes back, is going to be a $20 million a year coach of our bars.

That's a fascinating shift in the landscape. A coach like that becoming so in vogue and in demand now because of the TV money and just the different avenues that these guys have. I think that's going to be a subplot that's definitely worth paying attention to and keeping track of. The last thing, let's say this had happened. I mean, can you imagine what the reaction would have been like and how the world would have burnt down if this.

actually happened last winter. It's insane to think about. Well, the thing is, though, if it had happened, the Buccaneers clearly knew this was going on, okay? And I have said this before, and I'll go ahead and pete it. The Buccaneers knew enough about what was going on that down the stretch last year, particularly once the season had ended, what I was told was that they essentially said to the dolphins,

knock the shit off. Like, what's going on right now? Just, you know, you need to knock it off. But the Buccaneers also were walking the tightrope there, Tom Brady obviously still their quarterback. They want Tom Brady to come back. They're not going to out Tom Brady and anything. You know, and so that's why when things kind of hit the fan and, you know, as Tom Brady on retiring and all these stories get out there, the Buccaneers kept their mouth shut. And if anything, they backed Tom Brady and said, you know, we don't know, at least publicly, public facing.

They pretended they didn't know anything about this. What I think the reality is they knew there were some hijinks going on in the background. But, you know, what are you going to do? You're not going to out Tom Brady in the middle of this. You need him back. So you just sort of let it unravel and the league ultimately do what they did. I do want to ask you this, though. I think it's interesting that when all this comes down, the league makes it very clear.

The punishments on the dolphins, we're not touching Tom and we're not touching Sean Pink. I was going to ask you what you thought of that. It sounds like collaborators, right? I mean, to me, like, you know, who doesn't get hit in things like this? It's the people who collaborate. So I almost have to wonder, did Tom, I mean, did Tom basically cop to it? did Sean Payton cop to it? Or at the very least, did Don Yee cop to it and say, yeah, you know what?

I was the one that was kind of in the middle of this. The league really has no sway over Don Yew when we're, they can't touch him as an agent. But, you know, to me it's the collaborators who get off the hook. And there's no doubt that Sean Payton and Tom Brady were off the hook in this. It's helpful that Tonny Ye can kind of jump on the grenade here, right? He can just say, like, I was the go-between. I was the one that was doing all the communication. That makes sense to me.

I'm curious on the Tom Brady side of this. do you think that the fake retirement and all of this nonsense that ultimately went down the prevailing wisdom was that he wasn't necessarily happy in Tampa the relationship with Arians maybe had deteriorated a little bit do you think maybe that's a little bit overstated and it's more about the fact that he wanted to go to Miami or do you think some of that underlying attention in Tampa was real and is still something to consider when you think about the dynamics that are moving forward I think both I think was okay you know I don't think it's one thing or other I think you know Tom there was

There's no question in my mind that he was frustrated at times with he and Byron Leftwich working closely together on certain functionality in the offense. And then kind of Bruce being somebody who came in on the back end of a week and applying himself into game plans where I think Tom was sort of like, wait a minute, if you're going to be on board with this, be on board on Monday. Okay, don't be on board on Thursday. And so I do think there was an element of frustration there. But I also think there was an element of Miami being attractive to Tom, an executive position being attractive to Tom. I think he would have gotten partial ownership of Miami Dolphins at some point if that whole thing had unfurled the way it was going to. I think that was attracted to him. And then, you know, I think also the idea of being coached by Sean Payton and Stephen Ross and Tom Brady having those Michigan ties wasn't the first time that they talked to each other in 2019.

I mean, they've known each other for a while. Okay. And they've run in some of those same circles, okay? Not to get political here or anything, but obviously Stephen Ross, Donald Trump, the whole New York real estate scene. Some of Tom's orbit has fallen into that same thing long before, you know, Donald Trump was ever president. And long before, you know, Stephen Ross ever became infamous in this situation. You know, I think these are people that Tom knew and at times probably hobbed up with, you know, know, in the off seasons. And, you know, so there were some elements of this being attracted to him that I can understand, particularly if ownership comes out of this, at least partial ownership, comes out of the center. Yeah, again, I think that this sort of rich guy bullshit probably occurs more than we like to think it occurs.

Yeah, a lot. But because it was so brazen, that's why these punishments get handed down. So we'll see what happens with Miami. We'll see what happens with Tom Brady. And now I am fascinated to see what might happen next spring. Is there a team? Brian is going to be a free agent next spring. Sean Payton isn't going to be a free agent,

but Sean Payton's going to be available to coach. Is there some team that looks at this situation and thinks, this is our shot? Like, we can take a run at both of these guys if he still wants to play because he clearly would be interested in playing for Sean Peyton, and what would that ultimately look like if a team tried to do this again? Yeah, I mean, I think it comes down to, you know, if you bring it in Sean, you're looking at a longer window,

but the initial kick of it, obviously, if you think that you can pair him with Brady is, okay, we get this initial window, maybe it's a year or whatever, and then what does our longer window look like behind them? I think you'd have to sit down and really look at the franchises that are geared up for that, and it would have to be a Tampa situation where all they are is maybe a head coach and a quarterback away from turning the key on the roster. The rest of the roster better be pretty damn good. But I will say this, I mean, look what's happening in Tampa right now.

He's lost basically the entire interior of his offensive run. there's some questions moving forward to what's going to happen with Tampa. So if he wants to play beyond this season, I wouldn't be surprised if he looks and says, hey, is there one more shot elsewhere where maybe I'm the right guy and keep an eye on, I guess, like I said, a team that needs a quarterback and a head coach and a head coach for the next 10 years and maybe a quarterback right now that can be game. Definitely going to be fun to watch. I cannot believe this just happened.

I can't believe this entire story was real. And I can't believe it was real, but the fact that it was as real as it seems to be based on the punishments. And it's just a wild NFL story. Well, the league. Robert, Robert, the league did. Like, that's the thing is that I remember when this was going. I mean, it was funny because you almost forget about it like a month ago. The criticism I heard was it's just going to be another one of those, you know, bullshit investigations.

Nothing's going to come out of it or it's going to be minimal. And I kind of, I got so fixated that what was going on with Deshaun Watson, I had like basically forgotten about other than to raise the question like, hey, what's going on with that? Which had been brought up every time Roger Goodell spoke, the question was put out there. Like, where is the process in this? It was never anything but a vague answer. So, you know, I assume people in the league who were kind of rolling their eyes at it knew what they were talking about. And you've been through this before, right? We've seen this before.

This feels a little bit different, even though I still think that person of the first. is a little bit light, and it's very convenient that the most damaging part of this from a league integrity standpoint, from a gambling standpoint, from, you know, just an authenticity standpoint is the one part that they said, ah, we can really validate that. That seems off. Yeah, that part of it definitely seems to fit with what we expect at NAMO at this point. Charles Robinson, thank you very much for taking a time out during a busy travel schedule. I know how wild this time of the year is for you. So really appreciate it, my friend.

And we will talk to you very soon. It'll be swept off the front page. Let's see, we've got about two days, and then we're going to find out. We're going to return to the Sean Watson story, and this will get tucked back into the background. And then maybe there will be football sometime down the road. Not that it's the most important thing, but apparently it's supposed to be going on right now. All right, I appreciate it. We'll talk to you soon.

Thanks, Ron. All right. It's time now to check in from Niners Camp with one of our first. 49ers riders at the athletic. Matt Barrow with Matt, really good to see you. Appreciate you doing this. Good to see you. Thanks for stopping by. This is your California end of your tour, right? Just ending the California stretch today. I will fly to Denver tonight. It's been great so far. I was excited to come to Niners camp for a lot of different reasons, but mostly just because it's really new. Like there's so many new faces here, not only a quarterback, but you just look at the position coaches today.

You forget that Anthony Glenn is now here as the running backs coach. They have a new tight ends coach this year. The run game coordinator is different this year than it was when Mike McDaniel was here. They have a new passing game coordinator this year. Brian Greasy is the quarterback's coach. And you combine that with new guys on the offensive line. I think that we see this team as kind of a mainstay in the NFC and rightfully so. When they've been healthy, they've been good under Kyle Shannon.

But I don't know about you, but for me it was kind of jarring to get here and be like, man, And there's a lot of new here that I maybe wouldn't have thought before digging a little bit deeper. Yeah, there's a lot of talent on this roster, but it's all resting sort of the fulcrum for the season is resting on Tray Lance and on an interior line that is basically brand new. Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of responsibility on that group. And as you noted, there's a new run game coordinator, Mike McDaniel, now the head coach in Miami. And really it's Chris Furster, the offensive line coach, who's sort of taken on that McDaniel-like role. So, and, you know, that's another thing that was sort of the foundation for this team.

Everything was built off of the running game. So you're absolutely right. On paper, you see all the talent, Debo Samuel in camp today, practicing. Brennan Ayuk had a nice day. You know, you're George Kittles, the defense, everything else. But, you know, there's a very. sort of touchy part to this, which is that quarterback and interior line that we just don't know about right now. And, you know, everything stems from that.

Let's start with the quarterback. Obviously, it's been an up and down a few days, a lot of interceptions, a lot of turnovers. I think some of that stuff can be overstated during camp. I think, you know, Kyle was talking about it today during his press conference. Maybe eventually I'll get upset about that. I'm not upset about it yet. Right. And even the feel to the offense right now, just. just seems very different than it had been in years past. I talked to Kyle Uchek after practice. The extended play side of this, and what is available to them down the field and

late in downs, that's going to be probably the biggest difference, just the way the offense feels. But at the same time, some of the on-schedule stuff is maybe a little bit messier than it has been over the last few years. So how would you characterize what the early Trey Lance debut starting camp has been like? I think that was a great way to do it. The on-schedule stuff has been difficult because of what we just talked about. I mean, Aaron Banks is the new right guard.

You've got a question market center with Jake Brendel. He of three career starts has been the main first-team center. Spencer Burford, a fourth-round pick is the right guard. So, Traylans has had to learn how to shuffle in the pocket. And I thought I actually did a pretty good job of that today. So it's been rough. He hasn't been able to set his feet. The on-schedule stuff, as you noted, that has been sort of like clockwork with Jimmy Garoppolo, hasn't been so.

And I don't think it's all Trey Lance. I think it's probably a percentage that's him and not Garoppolo. But you're right. The off-scheduled stuff, and we saw this happen today with Lance taking off a few times out of the pocket. there were at least four or five scrambles today. So that's one thing that I've noted. There hasn't been a lot of design runs for Tray Lance. He's run the ball a lot, but it's him vacating the pocket.

And then something else we saw today, which was a long down-the-side line completion to Brandon Ayyuk. I thought it was probably Tray Lance is certainly his best or his biggest throw of the practices so far. certainly got the biggest rise out of the crowd. They haven't had much to cheer about with him. But that's something that you rarely saw with Jimmy Garoppolo. He just would not uncork that pass. And I think it's something that the iukes, the kittles, all of those guys, use check, he could get free on a wheel route and just be downfield all by himself at some point.

Trey Lance has the arm to sort of take advantage of those broken plays. And that wasn't even a broken play. No, that was just him hitting his drop and letting that. thing ripped, which is also encouraging. Right. And he did not, that wasn't a well-blocked play either. I mean, he threw that with arms and people hanging off of him, which has been the theme so far. But, I mean, my point is that slowly over the, and it's so early, but he has seemed to settle down a little bit from practice to practice. He wouldn't have made that throw a few days ago, but he uncorked it today, and it was a really nice play. When you move from Jimmy Garoppolo to Trey Lance,

and we're talking about this in theoretical terms. Yeah. The move is from something you know and something that has been reliable. When they've been healthy, they've been a top five, seven-ish offense, but it's been a very specific kind of offense where you have to live inside the structure. It's a lot of yak and it's a lot of what can the design provide for me and can Jimmy Garoppolo keep that design on the tracks? When you make the move to go get Tray Lance, the hope is, just again, theoretically,

can we live outside the design and have it raise our own? ceiling. Can we do different things on offense that even if there are some growing pains, we are going to get to a place and have things available to us that weren't with the type of quarterback that Jimmy Garoppel is? Today, that wasn't theoretical. You saw it laid playing. It's exactly what it feels like in real time. And I think seeing that experiment play out is going to be absolutely fascinating as it relates to this team. They're just more there with Traylance. I mean, the arm, the running. And you're right. The question is whether The peaks and valleys are certainly going to be sharper this year.

But obviously, the long-term plan is that the peaks start to outnumber the valleys. And you have that rushing element. And we haven't even talked about read option or anything like that. They can do that at some point. But, you know, I think that Kow Shanahan and he sort of touched on this today. And Trent Williams touched on it as well. This is a really good summer school for Trey Lance. He's going against what could be the best defense in the league.

Every day, he's learning how to deal with pressure. I mentioned the shuffling. He was doing that a lot in the red zone today, shuffling either to his right or his left. So moving away from the pressure and keeping his head up and looking into the end zone. That's what, that's, you know, in crunch time in December and January, those are the throws that, decide whether you're moving on or you're playing golf for the rest of the off-season. So the more work he gets, the more comfort, I guess, is the best word. The more comfortable he feels in those situations, the better.

And, you know, that's what really playing, that's what, you know, Tom Brady has made a a multi-multi-decade career doing the slight shuffle to buy that extra time, keeping his head downfield and making that throw. that's what makes you a Hall of Fame quarterback, really. The defense has really brought a certain feel, even just the one practice that I watched. I think it's a couple different layers to it. We know the pass rush is going to be really good, and we know it's going to be a deep group. Some injuries at defensive tackle right now, but the edge group is the fact that Samson-Ekobam

and now Drake Jackson coming in and seemingly get some work with the ones and be a real part of that entire rotation, you extend back to the linebackers, we know how good they are. And then watching Charvarius Ward today, it feels like, because him coming from Kansas City, they play a lot of Prussman coverage with the Chiefs. And it wasn't structurally similar to the defense that the Niners have played over the last few years. But it seems like they're going to let him be really aggressive in the way that they're playing some of those quarters looks and things like that. So when you combine that physicality aggressiveness on the back end with the way they play on the

front end, that entire group looks really, really good. I'm wondering where you think we should be worried about them. Instead of just penciling them in as like a top five defense, if you were looking at where the cracks in the foundation might be, where would you start on that side of the ball? I mean, it's a great question, and I'm sort of racking my brains for it. I mean, the wrap on this type of defense coming in, when Chris Casaric took over that defensive line went for this,

this wide on its very aggressive up-the-field defensive front, was that, oh, it leaves some room for rushers. You get a little bit overaggressive, and there's sort of a middle area that defenses are able to deploy. Well, that didn't really happen after here. It hasn't happened. Yeah. No. So, obviously, injuries can occur,

and they have so far at defensive tackle. No Eric Arn said, no Hassan Ridgeway. And I think Ridgeway is sort of going to be there. Run stuffer isn't the right. word. I don't know if anybody has one of those in the NFL anymore, but he's sort of their biggest guy. So that could be an issue if injuries continue to hit that spot. But really, they've shored up a lot of areas. I mean, the difference between this team and previous incarnations of this defense is the cornerback spot. They've got aggressive press caliber

cornerbacks there. And Charverius Ward has been the best player on the field so far in camp. I don't even think it's close. And, you know, the next guy up might be Emmanuel Mosley, who's the other cornerback. And the next guy after that might be Nick Bosa, the defensive end. And all three of those guys are obviously working in concert here. But that's what Domeko Ryan's want. I think he wanted to do this last year, which was combine that fearsome pass rush, combine having Bosa and Armstead on the field with press coverage, which would lead to interceptions and takeaways and really wasn't able to do that.

Jason Barrett got hurt in week one. Cornerback was a real issue for this team basically throughout the season. They had to force a couple of rookies in. That's the nice part about this, right? I don't know Ambray Thomas guys like that are bumped further down the depth charge. Well, yeah, they're the twos right now.

And they were the ones for big portions of last year. So I don't think Ryan's could really play what he, you know, ideally wanted, certainly on the back end. Now they're doing that, and I think they've got 11 picks in these first five practices, and that's the exact number they had through all the training camp last year. So we haven't even gotten a week in, and they've already duplicated that total. Some of that is Tray Lance. I'm sure McSetheld has thrown the most of that group, but I think,

It's mainly because you've got an over a much more aggressive defense, especially on the back end. Yeah, you could feel that. Even in one-on-ones, and they were just locking guys down and just the physicality, the hand usage, all of that stuff, it seems like, again, Traverse War played that way in Kansas City

and bringing over that kind of play style. It makes sense that they would want that. On offense, outside of Trey Lance, obviously being the biggest question, the fact that they're just going to roll out a fourth-round rookie potentially as they're starting right guard, and it seems like he has a real inside track to win that job.

I did not know that before arriving here today. And I watched him a decent amount today. It makes sense. He looks comfortable out there. He's playing aggressive. He doesn't look out of place as a fourth round rookie with that starting offensive line. I'm sure because of the other turnover with Brendel now playing center, Banks being there

at left guard, that entire interior group being different and inexperienced, sure there will be some fits and starts. But based on one day against that Niners' defensive line, it felt like he's not going to be as much of a glaring problem as you might think. Yeah, and we really don't have a lot of insight into him yet. I mean, fourth round pick, haven't seen very many practices with him. Trent Williams' comments today after practice about, you know, just how unaffected he's been. He's got a confidence about him. He doesn't know. He's not worried yet about those things. And sometimes that's a great thing. Absolutely, it is. You know, it's.

Especially in that position. As long as you're playing fast, right? As long as you're playing and unafraid to make a mistake, I think that's probably the right way to do it. There was a red zone drill where he jumps at a defensive tackle really aggressively and clearly he's just trying to mix some stuff up and try things. And for a young player to be as confident in doing that as he seemed to be in that moment in the run game, firing off the ball. Again, I don't know how it's going to go.

Yeah. But it's not like you're sitting out there watching that guy and thinking he's out of place. That's not how it felt at all today. There's definitely a bit of ignorance's bliss thing going on with him right now, which is great. And I think Trent Williams kind of likes that too because he is playing confidently. And when you play confidently, you play aggressively. You know, he played at UTSA and played offensive tackle and was really good in space. And so, you know, this has been sort of a, I want to say an issue with the 49ers,

but they drafted a lot of these college tackled with the guys that can move. design of moving them to guard, but what's happened is they've had some issues at tackle injuries. And so a lot of these guys, Jalen Moore, Colton McIvitts, have done, okay, we'll play a couple practices at guard, a couple practices at tackle, it's sort of hedging their bets because they need to have that depth. So Perfer's the first guy who's come in in that situation, who's taken exclusive tackles at guard, and I think it's starting to pay off now. And so, yeah, So you have this dynamic where the week one guards could be a guy in Aaron Banks who played exactly five offensive snaps last year. That was lower than any second round pick last year other than who was it?

The Bucks drafted the QB out of Colorado. Yeah, Trask. And he was the number three. You don't expect him to play on Tom Brady's team. So that was kind of alarming to us that, oh, boy, it's not like they had the guard position sealed down, actually. They had Brunskill playing right guard. And then the other guy could end up being Burford, who's played obviously zero NFL snap to this point. This is a very optimistic view of this, especially after losing Alex Mack, who brings that veteran presence on the inside.

There's a world where their guards are actually as good or better this year. Because if Burford can step in and give them a body type at that right guard spot that they did not have when Brunscoe was in there, it just seems like Brunscoe being that if we have a hole at center where he's working with the second team, if we need a swing tackle, the fact that he can fill in in multiple spots, that feels like a better solution for him than relying on him as you're starting right guard for most of the season the way they did last year. And then with Banks, I thought it was really notable that Trent Williams today said his body just looks totally different from year one to year two. because if you're trying to build a case for optimism as to why after missing essentially an entire rookie year, Aaron Banks could go from a non-factor to a reliable player. I think that coming in and being different physically is probably a pretty good place to start. Trent Williams said that Banks has been one of the better offensive linemen so far in camp.

That is not something you would have heard last year. Banks was a real liability. I remember Maurice Hirsch, defensive tackle, veteran savvy, quick off the ball. just abusing him. Pass protection was a real issue for banks last year. I think that's what made them squeamish about playing him. And, you know, he hasn't been perfect. There have been some false starts here and there.

But he has not been the reason Trey Lance has been vacating the pocket as much. It's been more of the tackles, and that's because Williams and McClintchie weren't in the lineup early on. And that's starting to settle down a little bit. But Banks has not been the weak link. And he certainly was a weak link a year ago at this time. Some news yesterday leading into today. Debo Samuel gets his extension. Debo Samuel practices today as a result.

Carl Shenan was talking about it this morning, essentially saying, this is the timing we kind of expected that it would be right before the pads came on. It's such a unique situation where the same agent is handling so many of these deals. and that's why the sequencing of them has been important because Debo wasn't going to take less than A.J. Brown and D.K. Mecalf were going to take based on his production last year. So it almost needed to happen where those guys got paid and then his contract was a response to that. And I thought that what Kyle said about the decision to do it was really interesting and that, yes, there are different ways to do this where you can decide not to pay a receiver and try to go find one in the draft. But when you have one that you know is good, it's worth betting on that guy. How much do you feel like this outcome, where he got a contract in line with those other guys, this was resolved amicably, he was going to be a part of their plans moving forward.

Did you see this as the likely end result of this entire saga? I did. What I didn't perceive was the April blowup where he asked for a trade. I knew it was going to be difficult. Kittles was initially they got it done. They got Warner's done at the last minute. And I say that because everything was going so well for Debo and this team throughout 2021 through the playoffs. I mean, he was, I call him the indispensable man.

I mean, he was their best wide receiver for half the season. Then they really ran into issues at running back. And he became their best running back in the second half. And was their lifeblood, their thumping heart in the postseason. I mean, he brings a passion. I call him a force of nature. I mean, you need that, especially in the playoffs when it's just brutal. And it's a fist fight.

And he brings that. And so that's why, you know, they were playing games into almost into February. And then just three months later, he's asking for trade. What the heck happened? Everything was going so beautifully. And, you know, the 49ers take on it was, we just need to bring him back. He just needs to be around our coaches, around his teammates,

and it won't seem so full of, you know, excitement, I guess. Agitation is probably the best word. And that's exactly what happened. He did come back in the spring, and it looked like he was the Deboe of Old. He didn't take part in any of those practices, but he hung around. He threw passes to team. made's on the sideline, he threw

passes to Kyle Shanahan's son, he was barking at the defense like he always does. It was part of it. He just needed to be here and know that he was going to be taken care of ultimately and that's exactly what happened. Last thing before we get out of here, is this the Brandon I

Yuki here? Is it finally going to happen? Because he caught that 40-yard from last day. He had a ridiculous catch in traffic overward in one of those red zone periods. It's impossible to watch one of these practices and not come way thinking that guy is incredibly talented and it just feels like maybe with lance maybe with the type of offense that is now available to them we see him really hit his stride as a part of this team

and this offense this year he's having the type of off season that debo had last year which is you're coming off a year debo's 2020 was was bad broke his foot in june on the COVID list a couple of times it was very disjointed and unsatisfactory for him but he went into 2020 21 healthy and was a man on a mission. And that turned into, you know, the greatest season that we've seen from a wide out in a long time. Ayuk is having the same type of offseason. Healthy was hanging out with Tray Lance for most of it. Has become good friends with Lance.

It never hurts to be best friends with the guy who's delivering you the ball. And I'm on, you know, fantasy football types of shows every now and then. And they ask, you know, who's the one guy who's going to break? out. I always go with Ayuk. Because of that, I think that he's put himself in the right position. Injuries can happen, this, that, and the other, but he seems to get it now and what he has to do, which is, you know, he's going against Charverius Ward. I mean, we're talking about Lansk, sort of being forged through fire to become a better quarterback. Ayuk is doing the same thing. Any catch that he makes is contested.

Yeah, both of them today were. He's got number 35 draped all over him. And 35, and 35, wins a lot of them and 11 wins some of them as well. But I'm telling you, he's not going to be facing that caliber all throughout in all 17 games. I think he is, like I said, positioning himself at the very least to have a very, very strong year. There it is. There's your actionable mugget that you guys are getting in this conversation. Draft Brandon and I, you higher than your buddies. Matt Barrow's, thank you very, very much for the time. Really good to see you, really good to meet you, I think, in person for the first time. I've seen you, we've seen you. We've We've done zooms and you have your ball cap on.

Usually you're not wearing a ball cap today. I did not recognize you when you came in. Most people know me either through a Zoom screen or know me by what my voice sounds like. And I think I've become okay with that. I've come to terms with it. But it's great to see you. Thank you very much for spending the time. Thanks for having me on.

All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Charles. Thank you to Matt Barrow. We were going to have Lindsay on today to chat about the guys we think of the most to lose or gain in the NFL this season. Dolphins News preempted that. be having Lindsay on tomorrow. Very excited about that conversation. Please check back on that.

In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Please subscribe to The Athletic, theathletic.com slash football show. Training camp is going on. You can check in on everything that we have going out at the Athletic NFL. Please grab a subscription if you don't have one. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon.

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