The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Familiar Faces in New Places: 2023 Defensive Coordinators Edition

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

Jim Schwartz, Brian Flores, Steve Wilks...these are familiar faces around the NFL. Those faces, however, are in new places this season. How will they, and the other veteran DCs with new jobs, affect the defenses they now run? Robert Mays and Nate Tice break it down on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by...BetterHelp: Visit BetterHelp.com/MAYS today to get 10% off your first monthDCs in new places...Ryan Nielsen in AtlantaJim Schwartz in ClevelandBrian Flores in MinnesotaVic Fangio in MiamiSteve Wilks in San Francisco Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. It's the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Before we jump in today, I want to tell you about New York Times Audio, a new iOS app for the New York Times, all access and new subscribers. It's got our show, plus all the other podcasts from The Athletic, exclusive shows, narrated articles, and more. New York Times Audio. Download it now at NYTimes.com slash audio app. joining me today it is my good friend Nate Tice Nate how you doing buddy I'm doing well I

I was like a change up for me it's a change up for me too man I am I am the most inflexible person of all time when it comes to this stuff so it's we're really starting off at the bang today but you should absolutely go check out the new york times audio app absolutely should no it was a I'm so used to like there's that flow there's like you know I get alley you like I know when to jump I know to jump in, dunk it on home. Usually I miss with the intros because I take so long on on them. But that one like threw me off. I was already in the air. The ball hadn't been released yet. So I was still waiting on it. But overall, doing fantastic. Another great show. I'm excited for this. Also, I'm wearing my like new de facto podcasting outfit, which is a Nike,

Nike yoga sweatshirt, which is incredibly comfortable. We are not sponsored by it. But yes, I use Nike now offer their yoga brand and their skateboarding brand. Because that is my style. I'm a dude from Minnesota that acts like he's from Southern California. That's what I like to go for these days. So yeah, this is my new, you'll see it whenever we do videos again. We do the live shows. You'll see the sweatshirt a lot coming up a lot on those shows.

I try to not be so comfortable because then I get sleepy. So I feel like if I actually get dressed, I'm a little bit more alert when we're doing these shows. And I feel like I'm at work rather than wearing something super. and just kind of sitting back into my chair and slowly fading into the abyss rather than being right here, ready to go. Stand up desk for podcasting and podcasting only just to get the standup desk for that. I probably should get the standup desk. My posture and everything else is an absolute mess.

I went to a concert on Tuesday and I was standing the whole time because we were in like the GA access. And it was one of the first times in my life where I've looked back at people in the seats and been like, oh, man. That looks real nice right now. I kind of wish I had a chance to sit down. right now. I went to a concert on Tuesday night, recording this on Thursday. I'm going to another one tonight. Two shows and three nights. I'm 35-year-old man. I don't have it anymore. You get that NBA. Tonight, I'm going to see the national tonight. It's like that there's going to be a bunch of

40-year-old dads. But guess what? I got a seat tonight and I am pumped about it. I am kind of pissed off that the two shows that I decided to go to were on games one and two of the Western Conference finals. But it was what it is. And also, but speaking of NBA, it's like you basically have load management for your concert your concert your concert experiences do you have to take a day off in Coachella do you go is there three days of Coachella there are there are three days of you go one and three do you skip too but there's a lot of sitting at Coachella there's a lot of sitting at Coachell there's a lot of sitting in the shade uh what possible so yeah yeah well that's that's all about knowing when to go and when to slow down over those course of those three days but

tonight there will be a lot of sitting as well even if there's people around me standing I'm like you guys are good like this is the dad rock that I need in my life right now. All right. So today, we're going to do a show about new defensive coordinators around the NFL. And I want to put some caveats with this very quickly. These are new defensive coordinators on otherwise intact staffs. So these are not new coaching staffs. We're going to have plenty of time to talk about new staffs. We've already talked about a lot of the new coaches already. We've spent a lot of oxygen and time on the new coaching staffs, the new head coaches, the new regimes. But I think a lot of these guys specifically, kind of got lost in the shuffle, these teams that switched out a coordinator

on one side of the ball, because when they're doing it, we're just after the Super Bowl, or we're in the midst of the playoffs. And so it's hard to kind of hit all of these. There are five teams that switched out their defensive coordinator, but their head coach is the same. And those are the teams that we're going to talk about today. We are going to spend a ton of time on the offensive coordinators and offensive play callers as we get a little bit closer to the season. That's something we do as a preview show every single year.

This year, I think we got like 10 more of them again, if you include play calling head coaches. So we're going to save that for probably July or August, but we wanted to hit these just because we didn't get a chance to spend a lot of time on Brian Flores going to the Vikings in the moment when it happened. And now that things have kind of died down were post-draft. I think it's a worthwhile time to revisit some of this stuff. Yeah, the new head coaches always gets the headlines and GMs. I should say that too. And then there's the occasional, but you get to a big Kellynne Moore move. Yeah.

Oh, but then again, but the other one's off. It's an offense-centric league by design. And I think that's how our natural attention goes to it. And it's a lot kind of easier and more fun to talk about offense in that regard. No offense to defensive coaches and defensive side of the ball. Deiante's going to come after you. Oh, so bad. But yeah, I'll never change.

That's an offensive guy at heart. deciding whether I'm an offense align or a skill guy guy at heart is what I'm still, that's why I'm torn between. But I know for sure I'm offensive side. I need to re-legislate that right now. But yeah, this is, this is fun. I've gotten so much feedback about that show, by the way. So much. Somebody with the team today was telling me that they were sitting there listening to it in the office.

And they're like, man, they're really going at it. Frothing. It was good. It was good. It was like, just need to reset it. Just get all of our systems. We'll find some more of that. We'll find our bits and pieces that we can do. that. But the defense aside was, I like this. I think when we also broke down how many

offensive changes there are for play callers and everything, we're like, oh, that's a lot. Yeah, we got to figure out how to piece this together. But I actually think focusing just on the defensive side is really good because then also there's a couple of these teams that actually the changes they're making are opposite of each other. And I'll talk about that in a second. There's one that flows into the other very easily that I think it's going to be really fun to discuss. But yeah, so I, this is all of these, I think. And one of the reasons that I wanted to do with this specifically, where it was just switching out the defensive coordinators for otherwise intact staffs and head coaches is that the motivation behind this is part of what makes it interesting. Like, why did these teams feel like they needed to make a change?

And how were these changes reflective of that motivation or urgency? The first one that I wanted to talk about was Ryan Nielsen going to the Falcons. This one's a little bit different because Dean Peas retired. You know, Dean Peas was done. He was out of the league when Arthur Smith, brought him along to Atlanta. And we've seen this a lot where you have the first time head coach who is the offensive play caller and they say, you know what, just give me a guy who can handle

the other side of the ball. We saw it with Sean McVebring and Wade Phillips. I think this is very similar to that. And there's sometimes, you know, Matt Nagy kept a Vigfangio in Chicago. So there's a lot of instances where I just want to handle my business right now. We'll figure out what we really need to do a little bit later on. I think this converges very conveniently for the Falcons where Dean Peas was retiring, but they probably needed a little bit of a shift on defense. And they got it by trying to tap into, at least in my estimation, a little bit of that juice that the Saints have put together over the last couple of years.

And this really is the first time someone's tried to do that, where let's try to steal a little bit of that magic fairy dust that they have down there in New Orleans under Dennis Allen that has really served the Saints well over the last several years. Ryan Nilsson was the defensive line coach from 2017 to 2020, and then the assistant head coach and co-defensive coordinator essentially over the last couple years. And one of those defenses, it's kind of when you look at all the underlying stats, you watch them, you're like, they're good. Yeah. And they have been when Dennis Allen's been there the last few years, they really have.

And just a defense, this is a stat I came across today. Why would you want to copy the Saints defense? Well, also one thing, and Dante actually had a great points about this last year, was that they, you know, they rush for, some of their coverages are a little bit different based on how they kind of go about their match coverages and zone coverages, just a little. But also just being able to rush for run simulated pressures, it's translatable. It's not as funky or as unique as some other defense.

There is a lot of, you know, sameness throughout offense and defensive schemes throughout the league in the NFL. It's copycat league, yada, yada. But there's one that I can go, I could run that with a lot of different types of personnel and different teams. But the Saints defense last year, they only allowed explosive plays on 8.27% of their snaps. And that's the eighth lowest tied for eighth lowest since 2012 with the 2018 Bears with Vig Fangio. Lowest since 2019.

And why I'm speaking to explosive play rates, that's something that I'm sure Falcons fans will be really happy to hear that. Maybe we can stop this. Maybe we can stop these gash plays that keep happening because Dean Peace was such an aggressive play caller. But I think this is, I like the choice. I think this is a, it wasn't a name that kind of was cropping up as like, oh, this is a hot young defensive quarter named that you might want to keep an eye on. No offense, Ryan Nielsen. I'm just saying that. Dennis Allen would have said differently than that. If you listened to what Dennis Allen had said in previous interviews, he was expecting to lose him somewhere along the way because of how good coach he was. And guess what he lost one. Yeah, he did. Right. I mean, there were such a well-coached unit. That's what's fun about the Saints. And hopefully you can get part of that. Some of the brain power behind that. So I. I like this. I like this move. I think this is a Arthur Smith nose ball move.

They played him twice, you know, so I'm sure he's like, oh, man, this shit's tough to go again. So he's like, I want some of that. Just like teams did for years and years with the Seahawks defense. They're just like, I want some of that. And then they realized, oh, you don't have Bobby Wagner, Earl Thomas, Cam Chancellor, Richard Sherman, Michael Bennett. But this, I think, is a little bit more translatable. So I like it.

Explain a little bit more about how some nuances and some of the ways they go about those zone coverages or match coverages because I'm going to forget if I don't ask you about it right now. Too high based and four down based as opposed to a odd or three down base defense. I think that's really the one difference that you can focus on with this. Big time. I mean, the Falcons right. It's on a simulated pressures. And so that is a carryover.

Even some of like the splits on early on third down, like the man coverage rates are not that different on third down. It's not that crazy, right? Yeah. So there aren't that many huge departures. But so that four man front. thing is, I think probably the biggest difference, but that's the big part. Oh yeah, but I think, but that's where it starts. And so you need maybe a different body type of front that can kind of

handle the, more of a traditional front type of guys, uh, and four down when you speak to that, gap shooting type. That's why they brought ony matto over. That makes a lot of sense, especially pairing them with Grady Jarrett. So that shoring up the interior. Also, um, I think it's interesting. You mentioned that the simulated pressures, they were both high, uh, had high rate of that. The Falcons did and the Saints said. The Falcons brought the second most simulated pressures over the last two years, only behind the Broncos. And the Saints were in the top 10. So it's still like, okay, there's not going to be that crazy of a difference.

And that's where I think Caden Ellis, who also followed from the Saints to the Falcons, will be a big component of that. He did it quite a bit. He finished last year with seven sacks. He rushed the passer on 16% of his snaps. Those were from the simulated pressures. So you'll see that. While I do think the blitz rate overall will go down from the crazy amount Dean Peace has done

of the past. Dennis Allen has kind of fluctuated that. And I know this isn't Dennis Allen. Dennis Allen to me, when my first knowledge of Dennis Allen was like, oh, he's like Greg Williams light. And if anyone knows Greg Williams, it's freaking crazy blitzes and too high inverted stuff everywhere. And he's almost become more sound and balance of the defensive play caller the last couple of years, maybe because he has a better defensive front. So I, I think there's going to be a lot that translates over there. And I like this. I want to see it. Like, I don't know much about Ryan Nielsen, other than his name is probably of a Danish or Norwegian descent, because I ends with an E.N, the 7-O-N, which is someone from Minnesota, I know my Scandinavian name origins. So, but yeah, I think this was going to be interesting.

And I think it's something that's needed. The Falcons defense still needs a lot of help over the next couple of years, but I do think they'll improve this year. They have A.J. Terrell, which will be a nice piece on the outside. So it might be we have some growing pains, but I think this is a good, good growth. pain. It's like working out of muscle. Just like just asking people about it. And I think this is going to come up on a couple different teams that we're talking about.

This is more about like culture and fit and personality than it is about wanting a specific scheme. And if you look at the way the Falcons are built on offense, they want to punch you in the mouth. Yep. Right? Like they have this physical way that they go about their business and they kind of want to overpower you.

And think about how big their receivers are. I think about the way that they've been built along the offensive line. And that's what the Saints defense is like. The Saints defense was a bully. unit. So you think about the way that not only the offensive line is built, and I think those body type changes are really important notice, so we can talk about that. But the amount of man covers the Saints played on early downs and just how physical they were

in some of those situations. Last year, they played 31.9% man on early downs. That was the fourth highest rate in the league. The Falcons were at 21.8%. So it's 10 percentage point jump. That was 21st in the NFL. Again, on third down, it was pretty similar. But on early downs, they were in your face.

We were going to push you around. Think about just what CJ Gardner Johnson was within the culture of that Saints defense over the last few years. And I think that's what Arthur Smith wants his defense to feel like, the same way his offense can feel like that. So I think it was kind of emerging of personalities and Brian Nielsen fitting into the culture they want to build and what that team wants to be more than saying, I need this offensive system, which I think is going to come up a couple different times in this conversation. And you see, sometimes you wonder, like, okay, how much of the scheme are they going to carry over, right? From, how much is he really going to bring from New Orleans? Right. But you pick up the breadcrumbs with the personnel choices that they've made this offseason.

They literally grabbed David Anumana to kind of transform the defensive line. And then you look at the defensive ends that they've added. The smallest full-time pass-reacher that the Saints had last season on the edge was Carl Granderson, who's 6-5-260. Okay, he was the smallest one. the guys they've added this offseason on the edge, Calais Campbell, who's 6-7-290 pounds, Bud Dupree, who's 6-4-270, and Zach Harrison in the third round,

who's 6-5-272. Those are the bodies that they added this off-season. The guys who were rushing the passer on the edge for the Falcons last year, Lorenzo Carter, who weighs 256 pounds, and Arnold DeMecati, who weighs 252 pounds. So they, I think, are consciously moving to a different sort of body type of front

because they want to be a different sort of team. On the second level, they literally drop Cade and Ellison. So you have this guy who's a really good pass rusher. They drafted Troy Anderson last year. He blitzed a lot. So you have a lot of juice and athleticism on the second level of guys that are going to blitz. One guy from Idaho, one from Montana State. Really tapping into those big class states.

That's exactly where you go to fight speed, right? But it makes sense. But look at Pete Warner and Davis and DeMario Davis. It makes sense. Get some guys that can, we're going to bring you on similar pressures. You better win. So let's get some guys that can do that. And I think that having Jesse Bates come in and having this guy in the back of your defense that can play it, just do a bunch of different stuff.

Right. And that's what the Saints used to do. The Saints ran a bunch of different coverages and they can play a little bit of man, but they do a lot of different things. And then they try to piece that other corner spot together with Okuda and Mike Hughes. And Clark Phillips potentially slots in as the nickel. Like this team, if it clicks into place, I think they can be a solid defense, like a pretty solid unit. Fisty. Yeah.

And if they're average and the office. offense takes a step. Like this team, I think, can fight to win the division. I think that's exactly what they're trying to do. And what's funny is like offense takes a step. They're like a 10th, 12th best offense last year in all the metrics. So it's like a step is like top sevenish offense and an 18th best defense. That's maybe we got a stew going.

I mean, but that's when you look at this team, but I like that you're bringing up the identity, especially on both sides of the ball. They're going to be tough. They're going to be well coached and sound. If I looked at the same defense and the Falcons offense. Fundamentals. That was another word that came. him up what I was asking people about. I like that.

I like that. That's because they're going to punish teams that aren't sound. That's what the Falcons offense does. It's nothing crazy. That's a great question. It's a great point. Anyone that's not sound, both sides of the ball are going to punish. Jesse Bates is going to pick you off.

He's going to, like, they're going to punish their offensive line pass protection is not good. Or can't pick up these simulators or the quarterback is getting like spooked off of something. They're going to punish that. So it makes a lot of sense. Like it's one of those that's like, Ryan Neoslin, okay, I don't know much about you. but then it's like if you can be what the Saints are and translate a little bit of this. Okay, I like this idea.

I like what you brought up to about the size of the defense line. Pushers, pocket pushers at the mallors. Physicality. As kickers is how we've described the Saints defense over the last couple of years. And that's what they're trying to translate. So I like this. I think it's a very, very interesting fit. And one that I, as I've learned more about it, have really come around to that it's like, this could be cool.

This could be cool in Atlanta. Although for the most part, there hasn't been that many changes on the staff. Like, there's been some. shuffling on the defensive staff, but they brought an offensive assistant over to be the secondary coach. They don't have a new defensive line coach because I assume he's going to coach the defensive line. The one notable addition that I would throw out there, they hired Jerry Gray to be their assistant head coach on defense. And Jerry was, I believe, the passing game coordinator and the secondary coach for the Packers for the last two years. And then he was the cornerbacks coach,

I think, in Minnesota for several years before that. So he's a long time NFL assistant on the back end. DB guy to pair with the defensive line coordinator. And a guy who's had been in decision making roles, it's been a high-ranking assistant. So again, I think if you're trying to give someone a little bit more experience to a guy who now is in his first year as a defensive coordinator, you like that. So I think that was the other notable guy that they brought it on that side of the ball.

It's just they just keep doing these sound things. I'm like, yeah. Like this is just a bunch of small, smart decisions. And yeah, I like what they're doing. I like what they're doing in Atlanta. All right. next one here, Jim Schwartz, going to the Cleveland Browns, poking around, just asking people, you know, what do you think is the mindset behind this?

A couple different things. I think they wanted a proven defensive coordinator. Yeah. So Sean DeSai interviewed there. They interviewed a bunch of different people. It's the type of organization that I think they're going to see. If we can get 10 guys in here and ask every single one of them what their vision is, like I want to learn more about it.

And I think maybe take an idea or two. Yeah. That's correct. The other thing, that's the other part of that. But Jim Schwartz has done this. You know, he's going to come in. I think personality was a consideration, you know, where Joe Woods is a little bit quieter and a little bit more laid back.

I think Jim Schwartz is the opposite of that. Yes. And I think that there was, that was attractive. And also, you don't worry about switching up your fronts, right? So if you bring in a Sean to side, if you bring in a Brian Flores, it's just a very different thing stylistically compared to what they did with Woods over the last few years. And that shouldn't be the most important consideration. it should be a consideration when you have Miles Garrett on your football team.

So I do think that his presence and what he's comfortable with informed the choice they made more than it might for other teams and other players. Yeah. And Jim Schwartz is a proven, he's a made man in this league. Skins on the wall for sure. Yes. And has shown that you can do it with different types of guys, but he always gets his guys to play hard and it's another sound coach.

And that's what I really like about this, especially a team that was getting gashy. in the run game the last couple years. I remember I'm being more of a single high guy, a lot of man, some cover three, spot drop cover three thrown in there as well. He'll do some funky invert stuff as changeups. So he does have kind of some other pitches in his bag, throw in some cover two. He'll spot drop, like I said.

Low blitz guy in first and second down, which I always think is interesting. He wants his front four to win. And that's what he likes to do. And then he'll bring into the occasional cover zero to heat up the quarterback. But it's kind of a. traditional grab bag of coverages. I don't know how else to describe it. I don't mean that in a bad way.

It's the classics. But the main thing that Jim Schwartz, what he is kind of known for, really is the wide fronts. The wide nine that was really, Eagles land. It was like the wide 11. Chris Long would be lined up way out,

almost like over the slot and bringing his pin in his ears back, which I love with a guy like Miles Garrett and also and Ovo Cronkwell. Like those two, those are guys you want pin in years back and going. So here's my question. I totally agree with you. And then they traded for Zadarius Smith last week. So how do you think that fits in? Inside. Yeah. So you just think he's like,

he plays that inside spinner roll and some of those in some of those looks. Because I, because imagine like Miles Garrett and Zadarius Smith on a twist. Yeah. I mean, I'm very into that. But I just he's not, he doesn't play. I mean, when you look, what he's done over the last few years, he hasn't played in like traditional four men fronts. The three teams he's played for. He played for the Packers, and he played for the Vikings. Those teams don't play that way. So we just haven't seen him deploy that sort of defense before. So that was kind of my first thought.

Because in my mind, I was imagining him in like Jacksonville. Right? Like it's just, but this is a little bit different. But so that was what I think that makes total sense. Yeah. Some of those numbers that you were alluding to, the Eagles were, they blitzed on 18.5% of their third downs in 2020. Jim Schwartz's last year there.

That was 29th in the NFL. They played man on 37, they played cover one on. 37.5% of early downs, which was the top three rate. It was the fourth highest mark in the league. The Browns played man cover one on 12.6% of early downs last year, which was 20-fifting the NFL. So that's a pretty significant departure. The Zadaria Smith consideration makes me think about some of the stuff that Titans did,

where Harold Landry is standing up a little bit. They're kind of playing with the front is multiple, like that word that everyone always wants to use, because Jim Schwartz was in Tennessee over the last couple years. And the coverage menu in Tennessee is much, much different than what Jim Schwartz did with the Eagles. They were almost 70% cover one and cover three on early downs when he was in Philadelphia. Last season, so quarters, right? Yes. Last season, no team ran more quarters on early downs than the Tennessee Titans.

So I'm wondering, do we meet somewhere in the middle? Is there some of that influence on what the Titans did over the last couple years into how he's thinking about stuff now? or do we get copy and paste from the 2020 Eagles? I don't know. But I think that's my main question as I looked at everything over the last day or so. No, it makes sense. And that's what I mean. He can call it all.

Like it's not like he's, I've, Schwartz, I almost like think of more of his fronts than I think of his back end. Yeah, same sense. Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that's anything crazy. Because the back end was never very interesting. No, it was just very basic.

I remember breaking them down before we played them in 2017. I remember breaking him down being like, okay. That wasn't like anything. crazy. I'm telling you about the invert stuff because it was like some third down changeup invert stuff. And I remember that throwing me off like the linebackers posted way deep and their safeties are coming up and the out of the out of the out. But that's a change up. But yeah, like everything you laid out more of a single high guy, but can run the other stuff

as changeups. And like you said, you might meet in the middle. I was thinking of the Zadaria Smith's too because obo is not, he's mediocre against the run. So maybe that is a, he's not very bad. Yeah. Yeah. But you. You pay him to rush the passer, which he is good at. So I think that maybe you get some Zadarius out there, you know, to help shore that up, they can rotate snaps on the outside on base downs on first and second down. And then you get into the pass rush stuff and the third down. And his thing is everyone pin their ears back and go.

That's why he doesn't blitz a lot. He thinks that I can create, it's probably like the 49ers and the jets have kind of done the last couple of years. Kind of same kind of thought process. Yeah, with the jet last year. Because two years ago, they had to blitz this year. Yeah. Last year they didn't butts at all.

That's right. That's right. But just pin your ears back and go. We got enough talent with just go, go, go. And then, like, that's their whole thing. They were, they originally were doing that to stop boot teams, especially the Vikings and NFC North at the time when Shorts was with the Lions. And it was just, hey, run at the quarterback every single time.

And then they just kind of adapted and added on to that. So I'm glad Schwartz is back calling plays because I really respect him as a play caller. And I think he's really good. I'm excited to see him on this Browns team because I think they have personnel that matches what he likes to do. On top of all, he has all that speed stuff on the outside. Remember, they had some. beef in the middle too. So that's the consideration for me.

That's the most important thing is that on top of, you know, there's going to be some continuity in terms of the fronts, but like how is their run defense going to be better this year on top of this coaching change is the players that they added. Like this is for after neglecting it for years, their biggest offseason splash was signing Delvin Tomlinson. They used one of their third round picks on a huge nose tackle. And then they went out and signed two more edge rushers. Signing Okaranko and free agency and then trading for Sir Darius Smith.

So they concentrated more on that. position group this off season than any other position group on the entire team. And I think that was necessary. So we've seen a pretty dramatic shift there. And it lets them be multiple too because naturally single high is better against the run. Just because you have another body in the box. So I think that'll help them out too, not only just adding personnel, but schematically. But that's nice.

But the goal of defense is to play too high and rush with four. Everybody wants to do that. And the Brown still are like, yeah, that's the meta. Let's do it. And then it's like, oh, we don't have the horses to do this. And we're getting plowed down the middle. So now they added twice. They had a guy that can run single high coverages to help it out with the bodies,

but also adding the personnel and adding the beef in the middle. So I really liked what the Browns have done this offseason. I'm pretty high on them right now. So be a reminder, eight weeks into the year, I want to look at box count numbers for the Browns on early downs. And whether or not he wants to play more like the Titans did over the last couple years where they could stop the run, but they were playing quarters on every single early down. or he plays more like he did in Philadelphia and how much he evolved and how much he's changed over the last couple years.

Because that's my main question. I think that there are a lot of Eagles fans that were frustrated with what Jim Schwartz was doing late in his time in Philadelphia because it was a little bit. It was a little bit simple. But we've seen other guys who are longtime defensive coordinators in the league and whether it's a year away or they step away from being a coordinator for a little bit, they changed their stripes. We saw that happen with Dan Quinn. We've seen it happen with a couple different coaches. So again, are we going to get the copy and paste 2022 Eagle, or 2020 Eagles, or are we going to get a slightly modified version of that that's distilled through some of the ideas that they were incorporating in Tennessee over the last couple years? I think it's a little modified.

That's my bet right now. I hope so, because I think that'd be really interesting. I think that'd be fun to watch. It's going to be a very interesting defense. And just wait for, Wiles Garrett got some help just from a coach and from the guys around him. So I think just wait to what he does this year. I mean, he's already a terror. I can imagine.

He's going to, I think he's, like he's, he's reaching his full, his final form this year. I think Miles Garrett, we're about to see, oh, wow, this is a whole other level because of what the Browns had added this year. All right. Next one here, Vic Fangio goes to the Miami Dolphins. A very well compensated man, now is Vic Fangio heading to Miami. This one is absolutely fascinating. Yeah. Because it's hard to imagine a bigger shift in some ways than going from.

from Josh Boyer and the kind of echoes of that Brian Flores life to what Vic Fangio wants to do. The biggest difference for me, the number that it thinks me is the most informative. Last season, the Miami Dolphins used six or fewer guys in the box on 24% of their early downs. That was 10 percentage points fewer than any other team in football. Everyone else was at least 34%. the dolphins were at 24%. In 2021, the Broncos were at 54% on early downs. So you get 24% light boxes on early downs from Miami at 54% for the 2021 Broncos.

You can't really be further away mindset-wise than that. And that's just the first point. There are three or four more that you can make here. There's two teams we're going to talk about. It's the opposite because we're Flores went with the Vikings, which we'll talk about. But these are, it's the yin and yang of each other. So a lot, so bear with me, a lot of these talking points are going to be the same because it's hilarious that these two teams basically flop schemes. Yeah. My, my stat was the Racco's in 2021.

They ran cover four, cover six, kind of the basis of Fangio's defense. But about 30% of the time, a little over 30%. The dolphins in 2020 ran cover four and cover six, two percent of the time, two point three percent. Dead last in the NFL, right? Yeah, yeah. It was all, yeah, it's man pressure and some cover two. Like it was just, uh, Fangio ran more covers. than he ever has in 2021.

And we kind of were thinking, I remember in the moment, we were like, oh, you know, maybe they didn't have the horses to do other stuff, but they also had this guy named Patrick Certain

that I think he was going like, oh, this is a lot of fun. I also think the man was driven in part by defense back injuries. Injuries, right? They were worried about continuity and communication. So it's just like,

I'll just play a man, fuck it. And so that the man coverage rates from the last time, Fangio was a defensive coordinator. It's a little much closer to what the dolphins were, but those numbers,

I think, are a little bit warped from where he would want. to be in an ideal situation. I think I 100% agree. But I was kind of thinking it was interesting. I was like, maybe he was like, okay, this is actually fun to throw us in as a change up because.

I do think there's some of that. I do think it's a natural change up. We have this guy, Jaylon Ramsey, who it's like, okay, well, we can kind of lean into that a little bit. You know, and Fangio is not traditionally blitz heavy, especially on first and second down and it couldn't be any more opposite than what Flores and Boyer have done the last couple years. Dolphins blitz about twice as frequently on first and second down in 2022 than Fanjo did in 2021. About the same rate on third and fourth down, but the blitzes

are different as well. You know, Flores and Boyer love the cover zero stuff. Yep. They're, they're Patriots guys, man, cover zero. Cover two has a change up. And Fangio ran cover zero about half the rate in 2021, which is heavier unusual for him, but because probably what we said, the injuries and stuff, like might as well die quickly, then die slowly kind of kind of thinking. But that's going to be a huge, huge change because it's like 10% of the snaps. It's not like a small amount. It's a significant amount of cover zero. That would be a difference.

So I think just coverage-wise, that's where you can see the biggest difference is in which those are kind of the two medas right now. And NFL defensive coverages. So you're going from one to the other. And I don't know, Fangio is the best at it. So I'm excited to see him with this defense. How do you think personnel from that previous version of the Dolphins defense fits what Vic Fangio wants to do? Cornerwise, it's nice for Howard and Ramsey. I would think through the middle.

They don't have the blitz on run downs, and it's kind of nice because of the guys they have. Not only Bradley Chubb and Jalen Phillips is kind of set in the edge, but just think up the middle. Christian Wilkins is going to be fantastic in this defense. He was great last year. And then David Long to kind of clean up the mess behind that. So I think the spine is way better than what Fangio had with the Broncos.

Yeah. And I keep mentioning. I think Zach Seeler is a really good player. I really like him. If he's going to be your second interior defensive lineman, I think he's a really good player. Yeah. Yeah, so I just think this, I like this.

I think it's going to be good mix of soundness. Obviously, it's Fangio. It's not going on a limb here. It makes a soundness, but just good players. I just think that they'll, because they have good players, the whole point of the fanjo defense is that too high shell and then rotating, making the quarterback hold the ball for that extra half second. But now he has some dudes.

And he has some guys that can take advantage of that, both up front and then a DB room. So it's fun. It's going to be a well-coached unit with enough sprinkling of town. I think it could be a really fun unit this year. For Jalen Ramsey, not a huge jump. It's the type of defense that he's played in over the last several years with Brands Daly coming over. And obviously they ran the same sort of stuff last year with Raheem Morris.

So that's not a huge transition. I also think it's a way to maybe preserve Xavier and Howard a little bit. Not asking him to play on an island as much as he kind creeps into his 30s. Do we see a better version of him than we've seen over the last couple years? He's the cover two guy, cover two sides to him. And then you walk up Ramsey on the back side. And man, I can see that. I could definitely see that.

So I'm very excited about it. Obviously, McFangio is, and I'm, you know what else I'm excited about what comes next? Like the tweaks that he's going to have for this particular group, because that's what Vick Fangio has done such a good job of over the last decade. You know, every single stop, it's a little bit different based on the players that he has. And that's why he stays relevant and stays great because it's not just copy paste. Other people are trying to just copy paste older versions of the Vig Fangio defense and struggling while he continues to stay one step ahead.

So I can't wait to see how he, again, distills that. the ideas or filters the ideas through these players. It's the same Shanahan Rosetta Stone line. Yes. That Fangio has the Rosetta Stone. Everyone else tries to translate it. But he has that Rosetta Stone that can do that. It's going to be great.

Not only like you're saying, Fangio is also a football junkie. And that's why everyone's like, I don't know if he'll be a good head coach because he's too much of a coach, like compliment and a diss kind of. But I'm sure he took that year, like this past year is he's just been, I'm sure he's doing plenty of research. He was hanging out with the Eagles.

He's going to hit the ground run. I'm sure that there was a ton of learning going on there and working with Jonathan Gannon and being in those rooms for a little bit, being, I'm sure he was technically a consultant, but he spent a lot of time with Eagles last year. Oh, I'm sure. Also, the other thing, too, is that because it's more of a bend but don't break defense, it's going to be a little bit, there's not going to be as many gashes allowed, like what the dolphins kind of gave up. There'll probably be fewer TFLs or run stops, I'm sorry, but fewer explosive plays

getting up in the run game, which I'm sure some dolphins. fans, be happy to hear about. A couple notes on the staff. Rinaldo Hill is coming over as his passing game coordinator. Rinaldo was the defensive coordinator for the Chargers over the last couple of years. They kind of promoted Tommy Donatel to be that guy for them. And then Rinaldo went over to work with Vic. And so he knows the defense very fluent in it.

They work together in Denver. So your passing game coordinator is someone that essentially is a Vic Fangio guy. Right. And then their safeties coach was actually a quality control coach for the Eagles last year, where Vic Fangio was consulting. He was at John Carroll in 2016, which is the, or 2017, which is the year after Brandon Staley left. So I have to assume that there's some, yeah, some, hey, check out this guy. Exactly.

Exactly. So, but again, we got two major pieces of the secondary staff that are fluent in these ideas. They're not, he's not trying to teach guys that are already intact. And there are some of these staffs where there hasn't been a ton of turnover. Like you look at Minnesota staff, the team we're going to talk about next. They have a lot of their same position coaches. It's just that Brian Flores is there, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, that actually blew my mind.

Like when I looked at it, I was expecting to see a bunch of new names. I'm like, I thought I had an old page. I felt the exact same page. And that's not what happened at all. So let's talk about Brian Flores. Yeah. Essentially the inverse of what we just talked about, right? I mean, so where do you want to start?

Oh, man. I mean, it's like, I don't know where to start. I, okay, I don't want to all those like blitz rates and everything. It's basically the opposite. So I don't want to like dive too much into it. So like, you know, like dolphins ran cover zero, 12% of time in 2021. They, the Vikings ran cover zero one percent of the time in 2022. Like that's one one instance right there.

Man coverage, dolphins are way higher, almost double the rate, more than double the rate. That two high shell stuff, Vikings ran at 45% of the time. dolphins ran 12% of the time in 2021. So it's like, it's again, it's the inverse of what we were just talking about. What I do want to talk about, and this is what I think is the most curious is how he uses the DBs. Flores likes his DBs. He's a Belichick guy.

They like their dying personnel. And I don't want to say like, oh, the Vikings didn't do it last year because they didn't want to do it. They just didn't, they had injuries. They also like had to get their best guys out there. So you never know with that. But I do think this is a really interesting group the Vikings have. And that's why I'm curious how Flores.

deploys them. So I don't know if this is fun for me. This is fun for me. Like they drafted Andrew Booth and Lewesine last year. Hopefully they're healthy. That's a corner and a safety. But then they still have Cameron Byron and Harrison Smith. They drafted Jay Ward from LSU.

They signed Byron Murphy. All these guys, not all of them, but most of them have slot versatility and have some of that Swiss Army knife to their game. Harrison Smith plays near the line of scrimmage a lot of times under Zimmer. So I think that's what. it's going to be really cool. I want to see how he uses those guys. Yeah.

And who he puts in the box? The safeties is my main question. It's like how, because again, they define what they want to be. They declare what they want to be before the snap. This isn't a team playing a lot of two high shells where the safeties are kind of interchangeable. One guy's going to play down in the box more.

Is that the best role for Harrison Smith at this point in his career? Maybe. Maybe that is the right answer. And then at corner, the Andrew Boothing, I think is interesting because this is actually the defense he probably fits better in than what Minnesota had been doing. Like he had man coverage traits when he played at Clemson.

If you go back and look at Dane's draft report on him, Dan said like he fits best in a man-heavy system. Oh, yeah. Long arms. And physical. And so his, this transition actually fits him, I think, pretty well. The one guy where it's like,

I wonder why they wanted him was Byron Murphy. Because Byron Murphy hasn't been great in man coverage. And the Cardinals haven't played a lot of man coverage. The Cardinals blitz a lot, but the Cardinals play a lot of zone behind those blitzes. is. So that's the one where I was like, huh. Yeah. I wonder why. I wonder why that was the guy in the secondary they wanted to go after in a free agency. I don't know the answer to that. Yeah. I don't either. Because I thought for sure they'd locked a draft a corner in the first round. And they,

they went receiver, which was fine. But it was just one of those where, oh, okay. So you're going with Murphy. Okay. All right. Like you're using him, like you're expecting him to be a lot for them. But why this is significant, though, is like you have to get these guys on the field. The dolphins were in dime 30% of their snaps, 31% of their snaps in 2021. The Vikings were in dime 1% of their snaps in 2022. So yes, they added some horses, but, you know, it's a great point. I mean, because you wonder, like, how are all these guys going to get on the field? They drafted McCoy Blackman, drafted Jay Ward. And I think it just works seeing a lot more DBs. We're going to see a lot more bodies at that position just on the field at the same time.

I, beyond the schematic stuff. Yeah. I think. that the shift to Brian Flores is an expression from Kevin O'Connell that it's more about who's calling the plays than what the scheme is. I think that was the lesson that they learned a little bit in Minnesota last year is that saying, I want this scheme and having the scheme not call to the level it needs to be makes the scheme you run fairly irrelevant. I was listening to the press conference that Brian Flores and Kevin O'Connell did after the hiring. And Kevin O'Connell was saying that they're in alignment on the way they see the game and the mindset. And it's about like money downs and about how you apply pressure,

not just blitzing, like pressure in a more nebulous sense on money downs. And I think the hiring a guy like Brian Flores is a declaration that we just wanted the best defensive play caller. It doesn't matter if the scheme was far flung from what we were doing before. We want someone who is going to make the game harder on the teams that we're playing against consistently, even if it is a very big departure from what we were and the scheme we might want in a vacuum.

And I think that's really interesting. I do too. It's the complete opposite. It's last year, I mean, the Daniel Jones game against the Vikings where he was just sitting in the pocket and just dicing them because he could just, he knew exactly what coverage was coming. It was passive. It was passive. And this is the opposite of passive. One of the reporters there, I might have been Ben Gosling.

I just listened to the voices. I was asking if they were going to do the same sort of. of stuff they did in Miami. It's like, you know, you blitzed a lot. You played a lot of man coverage. And of course, I'm not going to give it away. But Flora's kind of like doing everything he could and not give it away. It was like, I'm aggressive. I'm going to be, I'm going to be aggressive. So it wasn't it not even trying to really veil it. Like, no, I'm going to do a lot of the same shit. Like, that's just who I am. And I love that. I do too because it's, that's why I've always like spags. It's just, hey, make a mistake. At least make it fast. Yeah.

You know, and that's, I'd almost rather live that way as, again, I'm an offensive guy. So maybe that's why I just prefer because I'm like, because you can gash it. But it's also you can get gashed quickly. And when you don't have the horses. Yes. It's a better way to play. And so for the 2023 Vikings, they picked Jordan Addison in the first round. I think the ideal version of this team is we're really good on offense.

Yeah. Like we are like a top eight offense. We have no real holes within this unit. Our offensive line is young ascending. the quarterback is good enough if we put them in the right spots. We learned a lot after trading for Hawkinson last year. You know, this is year one. We didn't really figure out exactly what we wanted to be.

Some trial and error. This is the year what really clicks into place on that side of the ball. We just need to cause some problems occasionally on the other side of the ball. I think it makes a lot of sense. It's the analogy we say with the pressing defensive basketball. Hey, we're going to score a bunch of points and we're going to press you all game. Yeah, you'll gash us sometimes, but we'll go on runs. We'll go on all of a sudden that you've,

touchdown turnover, touchdown, turnover. It's like, oh my God, they just scored 14 points to two minutes. That's what they're going for. It's a shitload more fun, man. If I were a Vikings fan, I would just be excited about watching a different style, a different mindset.

And it is funny that they, because offenses always are attacking, right? The offensive mindset is always to be aggressive in attacking. So having a defensive, and I understand why people want the Fangio system because you're limiting an explosive plays and you, that's, it's hard to play against. In the best version of it,

it's hard to play against. But when it becomes really passive and they're running so much quarters and so much cover six, even compared to those Rams teams that Kevin O'Connell was a part of, the structure of it can be the same when you're not calling it the right way, the results can be frustrating. And I think that is the lesson of the 2022 Vikings defense. Browns, Packers, and Vikings defenses all kind of went through the same thing. It's Chargers defense, but the Chargers defense in Credit de Brannis Daly was that metamorphosis that they went through last year. that was the difference. Why the Chargers really picked it up in the second after year.

So they went, all right, enough of that. We got to change up what we're doing because we don't have the horses. I know we keep using that term, but it's a real thing. I think just Vikings fans, if I had one, maybe it's a two-part stat. And I already talked about the blitz rate and stuff. The Dolphins of 2021 had the second highest blitz rate over the past two seasons, only behind Wink Martindale last year with the Giants. So they blitz more in 2021 than the Ravens did in 2021.

The Vikings were at 21%, which is 5% below the last. league average. So that's your difference right there. Cover zero is going from 1% to 12%, which was the highest rate the past two years. So it's going to, you're going to see some fireworks for the defense and for the opposing teams offense, but I think it's going to be a lot more fun to watch. Outside of coverage, again, the same sort of inverse that we were talking about with the light boxes. The Vikings were at 62.34% of their snaps. They had six or fewer guys in the box last year. That's second, it was the second highest rate in the NFL. Brian Flores. is as dolphins from 2019 to 2021,

37% of their snaps with six or fewer guys in the box. That was 31st in the NFL. So we're going from 62% potentially to 37% potentially. It's hilarious at these two teams. It was just, it's awesome. It's cool. It's really nice because you get some, get to actually see.

It's like test tubes. I actually get to see what the results are going to be now that these coaches are plopped in. It's going to be fun. All right. Last one here. And this one, the exact opposite of what we're talking about these last couple teams. Continuity in some aspects. Like they wanted to maintain some, similar to Jim Schwartz going to

Cleveland, right? Steve Wilkes comes in as the Niners defensive coordinator because I can't hire a guy who's going to make Nick Bosa stand up and drop into coverage every once in a while. Like four down, let's get after it. That's what Steve Wilkes has been. And so we're going to see, you know, a different version of the Niners defense, but I think they want to carry over a lot of the same ideas, a lot of the same mentality that they've had under Domingo Ryans and Robert Saul before that. Yeah, not too much of a coverage change. Like I remember Wilkes with Carolina more specifically, and he was under Sean McDermott. He was the DB coach for a while there.

And that's how I can I remember, quarters and covers and cover three. And guess who ran a lot of quarters and cover three last year, the 49ers. Like it was pretty much very similar rates. I think Wilkes can handle any other components. This is a lot like what we're talking about was Schwartz. If you did want, if there were some changeups like cover two or cover zero, he's had experience doing that stuff. So it's not like, oh, well, that's not my scheme. He's an NFL defense coordinator.

And I mean that complimentary. I mean that in a good way. Like he can do it all. So I don't think it's too much of a drastic change. I think just the mandate is, hey, what the front four go. Yeah. But that's adding a big consideration because he has blitzed a lot. Top four blitz rate at each of his past three stops as a defensive play caller in the NFL.

They blitzed a lot in Carolina. They blitzed a lot in Arizona. They blitzed a lot in Cleveland when he's had those jobs. The United States haven't been in the bottom of the league, but they've been in the middle and closer to the bottom than the top. So does is that a part of Steve Wilkes's DNA? Or is he just going to, is he going to blitz a bunch just because that's what he does? Or with that Niners front, is he going to say, eh, it might not be necessary. And is Calshana going to say, why don't you tone it back a little bit?

So I wonder what this version of the Steve Wilkes defense looks like because maybe he doesn't have to do as much. Yeah, I think it, I think that's where it's, that's his change up. Because that's what's even, um, uh, D'Amico Ryan's, especially remember the 20, 21 playoffs against the Cowboys when he just, he put Callan Moore and Dak Prescott in the line tamer. Like it was and the Packers the following week and just running all this funky stuff. He had it in his bag, but he just realized, I don't have to do this unless it's, you know, big games and big moments, which is the playoffs. Sprinkled it in last year and I think that's going to be the same how Wilkes is. It's like, let's have a couple each game, you know, throw one in, change it up, manipulate the defense or manipulate the quarterback a little bit more.

The stat I had was the Panthers did blitz more than the 49ers on first and second down. but the 49ers had 41 more QB knockdowns despite blitzing at like a 10% fewer rate, something crazy like that. So it's like, yeah, that's exactly why you want to just rush for us because it's a lot more productive that way. The Niners didn't do a ton of crazy stuff last year,

but all the little wrinkles and all the little tweaks are always so well-timed. They always made sense. And that's just one of those things where sometimes it's hard. When you're watching Brian Flores' defense at its best, it's easy to understand why Brian Flores is a good defense. coordinator. Yeah.

When you're watching the Niners at their best and it's not just the front four getting home, what makes Damiko Ryan's really good at this is subtler. So I think understanding the differences between these guys and if there's a moment in week seven where the Niners defense is struggling, it's just like, why is it struggling? They're doing a lot of the same stuff. Like they're running the same sorts of coverages. And if you look at the percentages, it's the same. They're blitz in about the same amount.

Why isn't the Niners defense as good? And I think it's those little tiny wrinkles and tweaks and changeups that sometimes are hard to notice that are going to be really important to recognize here. The changes aren't overt. They're not going to be obvious. So I think understanding those little nuances as the season goes on, it's going to be important to keep an eye on that stuff. Yeah, it's little stuff.

Like this is where coaching comes into place. It's not just on game day. It's throughout the week. Yeah. And telling them filtering down all the film that you watch, much like kind of like, I'm not trying to pat ourselves on the back, but what we do? We watch a bunch of games and we try to distill it down to like, hey, what's interesting for five points on a podcast?

They do that for their players. Here's a cut up of all the third downs. We think they have this tendency, so this is why we're calling this. When we do this play, rotate late. But you watch that 49ers defense, especially the last couple of years under Rides, it was a hive mind. Everybody was flying to the ball. Everybody pre-snap was bumping at the exact same time or hiding stuff pre-snap.

So like you're saying, and I agree with that, is that'll be the difference, is those little subtler things and little tiny details. And we'll see, you know, Wilkes has had some stuff before. So we'll just see if he can handle this Ferrari that he's about to be given in San Francisco or Santa Claire, I should call him. The Niners did have some coaching turnover. So Corey Allen, who I think was the defensive was this passing game coordinator for the Niners and their secondary coach over the last two years. He went with D'emico Ryans to be the passing game coordinator for the Texans. So one of those kind of higher ranking guys that oversaw that aspect is gone.

They didn't really bring anyone new in based on how I'm looking at it. Daniel Bullock, who was the safety's coach, is now just the defense. defensive backs coach. Johnny Holland is still the linebackers coach. Chris Seurrick, obviously, is the defensive line coach. So I'm sure, I'm sure like he's wrapped up. Like, they chained him to the, to the table and gave him a whole bunch of money. You stay here. I always, I never, I'm, I always hesitate to say stuff like this because who knows, like maybe he, he does have these sort of aspirations. But every time I've either talked to him or heard about him, he's kind of seems like one of those guys just like, oh, I'm good. Like, I want you to pay me a lot to be the defensive line coach,

but like I just really like doing this and I'm really good at this. I'm sure he's gotten a raise or two over the last few years as he's worked in San Francisco. But there's some of these guys who like, like Jeff Stoughton is like this. Like yeah, if you pay me like five million bucks a year, like I'm good. Like I just, I'll do this for the rest of time if you want. It's like Lake Career Bill Callahan. He and Dante Scarnacchio like those guys are just like, yeah. Oh, I coach.

Yeah. Good. Good. What's my race? Okay, sweet. Sweet. This is great. I got tenure.

That's exactly it. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that type of life and career, especially if you're really, really good at what you do. Okay. So Nick Sorensen is now the defensive passing game specialist and Nichols coach. He came over from Jacksonville.

So that's like one other little tweak on the staff. I recognize that name. Yeah. So that's really it though. I mean, it's for the most part. They have a lot of the same assistance in place and that's what they wanted. They think they wanted to really tap into the same thing.

But bring in a guy who's called it before, who's had some success. as a defensive coordinator. Steve Wilkes did a really good job in Carol White last year. He did. Keeping that team together and just culture-wise and being a leader and all that kind of stuff. He's the type of guy, I think, that would be a positive influence on any building he was going to come into as a defensive coordinator. And the fact that there is some overlap schematically with what they were already doing, I think, is a bonus for the Niners.

That's what makes me feel better about this transition more than most that usually would happen is that it's not, you're not asking him to square peg round hole. No. It's a lot of stuff that he's done before. it's just do it the 49er way. But I'm totally fine with that type of transition. That's all we got. Sweet. Only five defensive coordinator is wait until we do the two-part

offensive play caller show that we're going to do in July and August, which is coming, by the way. We are going to do that. We are going to do that. So that is coming a little bit later in the summer, but this was fun. I'm glad we got to talk about this stuff because we really had missed some of these and hadn't got to talk about them at length in any

forum before this. The Falcons one was a lot of fun because I hadn't focused it. I've been so obsessed with what they're doing on offense. It was kind of nice to take a deep breath and look at their defense for once. And the Vikings. The Vikings' dolphins flip is just, again, I hadn't really thought about it in those terms before. But when you start looking at the numbers, it's like, oh, I can just flip all these. This is great.

So swinger schemes. Jesus Christ. All right, that's all we got. We will be back on Monday with our next mailbag. Until then, really appreciate you guys listening. Please enjoy your weekend. We'll talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.