The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Fixing the Broncos, Cardinals and other teams that fell apart in 2022 with Daniel Jeremiah (Part 1)

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Year one of Russell Wilson in Denver didn't go as planned. Neither did the first season of the Josh McDaniels era in Las Vegas. Daniel Jeremiah of the NFL Network joins Robert Mays to break down where things went wrong, and how things get fixed, for those two, and three other teams that crashed and burned in 2022 on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube3:18 Denver Broncos16:23 Las Vegas Raiders28:46 Carolina Panthers34:10 Arizona Cardinals45:27 Jacksonville Jaguars Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Just past Thanksgiving. It's week 13. There are plenty of teams in the NFL who just fell short this year. Crashed and burned didn't hit the expectations we thought they were going to

coming into the year. And when we get to this point in the season, it's easy to forget about those teams. We get totally enthralled with a playoff picture. and who's going to make the wild card and what do the Super Bowl contenders look like. So I wanted to take a step back today and look at 10 teams that ultimately fell short this season. Why that happened and how they might pick up the pieces. A few teams were not going to talk about as part of this exercise.

The Packers, we just had a conversation about that with Mike Sando earlier this week. If you want some Packers talk, go check it out there. We did a big dive on the Saints on the Monday hangover a couple weeks ago, We're not going to talk about the Saints. The Bears get plenty of oxygen on this show. Also, the Bears were supposed to be bad. So the fact that they are bad should not be a surprise to anyone. But we've got 10 other teams that we're going to chat about and dig into on this show.

We talked for so long that we're going to split this into two parts. Part one is going to be with Daniel Jeremiah from the NFL Network. We're going to get to that first. Part two is with our Rams writer here at the Athletic Jordan Riles. If you want to listen to that show, it is a separate episode. Please go check it out. Really enjoyed the conversations I had with both Daniel and Jordan. Let's get to that conversation with Daniel right now.

I am pleased now to welcome from the NFL Network. Their lead draft analyst? What do you call yourself these days? Whatever. Yeah, sure. The host of the Move to Sticks podcast, somebody who is a perfect person to add this conversation with as we think about where these teams are and where they have to go. in the team building process.

Daniel Jeremiah, really good to chat with you, buddy. Really appreciate spending the time. Great to be with you, pal. I'll tell you what. Aren't you glad, though?

Like, the next generation won't even know what a business card is. Like, do you remember that? Like you'd meet people. Like, hey, can I get a business card? Yeah, you're darn right. You can't I keep a stack of freaking 500 of these things in my briefcase here? Let me give you one of those.

The best one is we got them at Grant. We wanted them at Grantland for like years. We were pushing to get them for years and years and years. And we got them like four months before. before the site folded. So in my closet right now, I just have like hundreds of Grantland business cards with my old ESPN email on them that were completely worthless and I'll never use. So that's amazing. So one little scouting nugget for you before we get started here. So as a scout, you had your business card. The number one reason you needed business cards was because when you

go into the school in the morning, the nice thing to do, the professional thing to do is to bring donuts or bagels. But then, you know, they might have five or six scouts there that day. So you had to tape your business card on top of the donut box so that the coaches that, you know, at USC knew, hey, those were from the Ravens, pal. Those were not Carolina Panther donuts. Those were Baltimore Raven donuts. And I'm sure you have to differentiate yourself. You have to find the good donuts to make sure yours are better than like some jerk from the Jets.

Yeah, 100% like, I mean, some guys would like drop off like the donuts. Like really, dude, you got that at 7.11 like around the corner. Like these aren't even real donuts. Come on. That's rough. That is a rough way. Winners win and losers. lose even in donuts, Robert.

All right. I'm excited to dig into this. I explained the concept a little bit earlier, but we're going to talk about the teams that kind of crash and burned a little bit in 2022, the ones that had some expectations did not live up to those expectations, why they fell short and what picking up the pieces might look like. And there's only one place we can start this. This is the team that was kind of the genesis for doing this podcast.

And that is the Denver Broncos, who are sitting at 3 and 8. And if we're figuring out how the Denver Broncos got here, I think it's pretty easy to connect the dots. A team that traded two first round picks, two second round picks, and gave $160 million guaranteed to a quarterback, is dead last in the NFL in scoring. So it's not really difficult.

Not very complicated to figure out the path here. There are some other stats when I was looking this up. They were pretty shocking. So they're averaging 1.2 yards per points per drive. The gap between them and the Colts at 31. is bigger than the gap between the Colts and the team at 24. The Broncos lead the NFL in penalties with 87. They have 26 combined delay of game and false start calls this year, which leads the league.

They're 31st in special teams EPA. So every single quiet aspect of who you can be as a team beyond just the offensive disaster, they've essentially been bad at it unless it relates to their defense. So that is how we got here. Daniel Jeremiah, what comes next for the Denver Broncos? Where do you want to start this? Well, I will say let's start with a happy thought here. And so when I look at this team and doing the charge games,

I see them twice a year. I've seen them for the last five years, twice a year. So you get a little bit of a feel for the roster. And you would always go into that game and, okay, this is going to be a really physical, physical game. The defense, obviously under Vic was, you know, was outstanding. There's still tremendous pieces there on that side of the ball. but Javante Williams, you take him out of that offense, their most physical player,

who you can run the offense through no matter what you think of Russell and how bad that looks, and we'll get into that. But that takes a lot of pressure off of him. Garrett Bulls had, you know, gone, is one of the great success stories of somebody who's been written off early in his career was the human holding penalty early on and developed into one of the better left tackles, especially when it came to, you know, the run game, what he could do there and the physicality provided. So those are two really, really huge key. pieces they're going to get back.

So even though you can say they don't have a first round pick, getting those two guys back is going to provide a drastic impact in what they're doing. But if I'm looking at, you know, what's wrong, you can start with Russell or you can start with Hackett. I mean, I think there's there's a strong case. I could make a strong case against Hackett even stronger than I make against Russell, which is saying something as bad as Russell's played. This becomes pretty simple to me.

You can't move on from the quarterback. fire the quarterback. You cannot fire the quarterback. We can get into some of the machinations with the contract. If they move on after 2023, they could do something where they're looking at a $35 million dead cap hit in 2024 and $50 million in 2025. If they make him a post-June first cut next year. That is the best case scenario for when they can move on from him. So he is going to be on the team next year. You can move on from the coach. And when you think, about how this is gone, it almost feels like one of them has to go. Somebody has to take the fall for this. And when you can't put it on the quarterback, process of elimination takes you to the coach.

Yeah. And the other thing is you just laid out some of the penalty issues, right? So I can say, oh, you know, gosh, it's kind of nebulous when you say it's not a scheme fit. They don't, they're not a great marriage that way. But what isn't nebulous is unorganized, undisciplined. That's exactly right. Looking like you're in way over your head. And I'm, I'm speaking as somebody who has been let go with an organization at one point in time. I don't, I don't ever like advocating for people to lose their jobs. I know all that comes along with that. But this clearly looks to everybody like this is a job that's too big for him right now, that they're going to have to make a change. You can't run this back. You can't do this for another year and have it

look like this. You've got at least hope it can get better with Russell. And as much as some of the things have, you know, rub people the wrong way with Russell in terms of special treatment and, you know, You hear all the stories, his own office, his own locker, all the personality issues that he has, you have no choice but to bring him into the process of finding the next coach. Like he has to be a part of that. This thing has to work. You're not moving on from him for the next couple years. So as you might throw up in your mouth when you do it, you might not feel good about it. But I think that he has to be involved in that decision.

I really do. Because if it doesn't work now, where do you go? This is the last lever you've got to pull. So if they move on from him. him, it feels like even if Everard has been fantastic on that side of the ball, elevating him doesn't make sense to me. You know, I think you want a clean slate. You want to get that taste out of your mouth.

They're also best friends, which is another complicating factor there. Like, I mean, they were the best men at each other's weddings. So there's just a lot of entanglements there that I think you probably want to clear yourself of even if he's done a really, really good job on that side of the ball. So then it becomes a question of who the next coach is. And I understand what you're saying with the Russell thing. I almost think that you have to make some of these moves independent on whether you think,

independent of whether you think he's going to succeed or fail. Because I think that if you, that you think that you have to build an offense around him and you're tailoring your search for the next coach and what you're looking for based on his willingness and ability to get the most out of Russell Wilson, I almost think that you're selling yourself short in terms of scope and perspective.

Because I'm not sure that guy maybe exists. I just don't know if that's the answer. It makes sense, and I think practically you almost have to do it. But it really gives me pause to think about it in those terms. Because if you're going to lock yourself to him, I think that's how both of those guys drown again. Yeah, I mean, I guess I choose to look at it this way. And it's not my money. So it's easy for me to say this in terms of moving on from coaches this fast.

But like this is a one year experiment that you're scrapping. Right. So that's one year. That's out the door. you've kind of laid out the reasons why I think he's going to get I think Russell Wilson unless you know he just literally can't complete a pass is going to get two more years to try and make this thing work. So I'm looking at this is I'm going to try and find a coach that can work with Russell and they can try and figure this thing out for the next two years. If after that two

two year period of time we're seeing the same level of play for Russell Wilson guess what the whole the whole group is out and you're you're on to another group. But I just if you don't have a coach come in there who's who sees that he can make something with Russell and seize the upside there, which is hard to find watching this year's video. But I think if you don't have belief there, I just think you're going to beat your head against the wall for the next two years. So it's, look, we're going to talk about several teams.

You kind of gave me a heads up on who we were talking about today. This one's the trickiest one for me to try and navigate around. Because there's really no good way to do it. And I was reading Jason Fitzgerald did a long breakdown of it over the cap, just looking at all the different levers you can pull contractually. And there's an argument to be made that you. potentially bring in some competition for him even next year. Because if this thing doesn't get better, sitting him down the stretch is a way to avoid

some potentially devastating injury guarantees. So I think that you almost have to get really creative in how you're thinking about this. And one of the things I was thinking about was he has a $22 million cap hit next year. Russell Wilson does. So do you say we're not just going to give him the job? Like we have to bring in somebody that can be a. a viable alternative to him just in case this doesn't get any better. And we want to sit him down because we want to give ourselves the option of moving on the

year after. If you're looking at the free agent quarterback market, because you got no picks. Is this like a Djigobi percent landing spot? You offer him a two-year deal, you know, that kind of fake backup deal where there's an upside to be a starter and he can get paid that way. You give him $10 million. They have $32 million combined to their quarterbacks next year. you can kind of live with it.

Like because it's the naughtiest and most complicated path, I almost feel like you got to take multiple shots at figuring it out just to give yourself potential outs from this. Well, it's a great point you brought up. And one of the things I think you'll talk to, when you talk to GMs and buddies around the league is they'll talk about the position,

the finances of the position or the overall positional output. So in not looking at it as we're paying, you know, Russell Wilson, this amount of money is back up that of money. It's just looking, okay, we've allocated this amount of money to the quarterback position. So whoever starts, we don't care. You could make that number lower than some of the other numbers around the league and come up with your starter who might be an upgrade. And I, you know, I'll throw another one out there and we'll see what Sam Donald does coming down the stretch here. But that's another one, you know, when you look at a Sam Darnold, we'll see what

happens with Daniel Jones going forward. But I, you know, some of those guys are going to be available for, you know, and I don't think it's going to cost you a ton of money. You're going to have to, their agents are going to force you to build in some incentives there. So the number is going to climb with them, you know, playing and winning that position. But I think if you look at positional allocation of the money, that's, that's one way you do it. Shoot, Russell knows about that because that was part of the discussion when he, when he won the job over Flynn. Yeah. I was like, look, we're paying this.

We're paying the quarterback position this amount of money. That's what it is. So we're just going to pay, we're going to play the best player. You look at the rest of the roster outside of the quarterback. All right. Sutton back next year, he's on an extension. Patrick next year, back next year, he's on an extension. He didn't play it all the season, obviously.

Potential Judy trade, maybe, just to recoup some of that draft capital, get anything for him when you don't have any picks. You know, maybe that's where they're heads at. I don't know either. Again, we're grasping at straws here. There's not a lot of good answers. I mean, yeah, the only thing with Judy is that played for dayball, right? Played for day ball at Alabama. So that's an opportunity there.

I don't know. What are you going to get? You hope you get a three, maybe a four. You're not getting a two for Jerry Judy. You didn't play. You didn't done anything. I don't know, man. Chase Claypool just went for like the 30 third overall pick in the draft.

So I listen. That's a, that's a sore subject. But a couple other just moving pieces to hit on. Cream Jackson hitting free agency. They have Caden Stearns who played well in Justin Simmons's stead so he can theoretically step in there. Darby's under contract next year, but you save $10 million if you move on from him. Just one more thing to consider.

And then they're past rushers after moving on from Nick Chub, all back. Randy Gregory is a good player. Benito Browning's been very good. Alex Singleton and Draymond Jones also hitting free agency. So some of those pieces that have kind of been the connective tissue of a defense that's been really, really good may not be back next year's. But that's all just details. What really matters here is who the coach is going to be, what you get out of the quarterback.

And I think both of those answers are murky at best right now. Yeah. And I think to kind of hit on your earlier point, though, is that as much as you hate to move on from a defensive coordinator and a whole staff changeover, the pieces are in place there that whoever comes in there is going to have a chance to have a really good defense. 100%. So there is that.

But the big decision, the more as we talk about this, and this is why these exercises are fun and you kind of workshop it, the more I'm starting to lean more towards your second thought there of bringing in a quarterback as some competition. And if nothing, if nothing else, maybe it lights a fire into this guy.

Because I can't remember, he's 33 years old. 34 today. Oh, 34 today. There you go. Happy birthday, Russ. I don't have in my, you know, in my recollection, a quarterback in his early 30s that's falling off a cliff like this.

We've seen it, you know, slowly go downhill. The running backs are notorious for falling off a cliff. And we see quarterbacks in their late 30s that have, but this is maybe it's because the way he played early in his career, maybe there's just more miles on him than you would think of a traditional 30 just turned 34 year old quarterback. As somebody who's been in front offices before, like what do you think the conversation that George Payton is having with his staff with himself feels like right now?

Because I can't remember anything like this. You know, there are teams that have had to negotiate around Albatross quarterback contracts two, three years into handing them out. You know, what the equals had to do with Wentz or what the ramps had to do with golf where they were quickly trying to move on from him. That has happened in the recent past.

I can't remember it happening immediately after giving up this sort of package to go get a guy. This is unlike anything I can remember in the modern NFL. Yeah. And golf and Wentz had real value to other teams, you know, even though it had not gone the way they anticipated because of their age. Now combining age along with the number, like you've got you've got nothing there. Again, like it's a, there's a lot of teams to get to. this one is the one that would be the rubics cube of the of the bunch trying to figure that thing out. All right.

Let's get to another team in the AFC West here, talk about the Las Vegas Raiders who are sitting in four and seven. How did we get here with the Raiders? Few ways. The Raiders are 0 in three this season and games where they've led by 17 or more points. Which is incredible. I look at it today. Since 2000, teams have won 96% of those games in which they've won by, led by 17. or more points.

The Raiders are winless in those games this year. That's insane. That combined with the fact that they are 31st in the NFL and EPA per play on defense. That's how the Las Vegas Raiders are four and seven this season. So what comes next for the Las Vegas Raiders? They have one big looming question. And that is a quarterback who needs his contract exercised

heading into next year if they want to commit themselves to him. Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. I just... You really don't. I don't. And I think there's sometimes where you can say, okay, where are you going to find better? And there's other times where I think that the conversation is this is just kind of, we ran it. It's ran its course.

And it's not a great fit with Josh McDaniels. And it's who you're married to. And we come off of talking about Denver and say Denver has no choice, but to be married to the quarterback and not the coach. I think in this situation, it's the exact opposite. I think they're going to be married to McDaniels and his vision going forward. And I just don't have a lot of confidence that they're going to want to run it back. you know, I don't. So, you know, the other issues are, they're plentiful.

To me, it's offensive line and corners. Like those are the two areas that have to be addressed with this team in the offseason. But I don't, unless, look, they did last year they won on a big run at the end of the season. Maybe that's coming. Maybe they're capable of that. I don't see that happening. And I think, and it comes down to McDaniels versus Carr, I think McDaniels will probably win this one. To me, it's a be careful what you wish for sort of thing.

Because you move on from him and you're staring at life with another option there. you going to get that guy? So right now, they're picking ninth. And obviously a lot can change here over the last five weeks of the season. They're four and seven. The Bears are the team pick in third right now. The Lions via the Rams is three and eight. So many of those things can shift. They may be in a position to draft somebody. And I think the decision to move on from Carr and that under those circumstances makes a little bit more sense. It's a little bit cleaner. But I think I can make a pretty compelling case that there's reason to be optimistic about the offense. If you look at some of the underlying numbers, this team is like ninth in offensive DVOA. Some of that is the way that they've

run the ball, but they've been like a pretty good offense this season. They've had some real stinkers. Like that Saints game sticks out in your mind, but they've been a pretty good offense and they haven't had Hunter Renfro for most of the season. They haven't had Darren Waller for most of the season. And theoretically, you could spend some of the cast space you have next year. going to get an offensive lineman or use that pick you were going to use on a quarterback to get an offensive lineman. So I understand why they potentially would want to turn the page because it's available to them.

It's why they structure the deal like this. But I still feel like you're heading down that dark road and you don't know where it leads. And the one you're staring at right now, even if it feels monotonous and feels like something you've lived over and over and over again, it's not that bad. Yeah. I just think also, though, it's not Derek versus the quarterback that replaces him. It would be Derek versus the quarterback who replaces him plus what you do with the savings. You know.

You're right. So you have a chance to build in and build around that roster. I don't know. I just, I always use the phrase. I talk about like the confetti test. Like, can you ever envision the confetti falling on Derek cars, the quarterback of the Raiders as they're hoisting the Super Bowl trophy? And Josh McDaniels has been on that stage and been in that situation so many times. I just, I don't know that I get that vibe or that feeling.

And if you don't feel like he's that guy, then you got to go try and find the next one. You think they cut him? Because he has that no trade clause. Yeah, yeah. What are the numbers on that? What does that do from a, from a cap standpoint? Because I think it's, they're Scott free far as I know. Five and a half million dollars in dead money if they release him.

Yeah. He has a $33 million base salary that fully guarantees on February 15th, but they can trade him really up any point before June 1st. So it gives them. time. And I have to imagine if he wants to go somewhere, there is a team that would look at $33 million of Derek Carr with no signing bonus attached to him beyond this year and say, I want that. Like that is an upgrade over what I have at quarterback. Even if he's not the confetti guy for the Raiders, I think there are some other teams that have run into some

difficulty, some complications of quarterback that look at him and see an upgrade over what they have right now. So I think they'd have a market for him. It just depends on whether or not he wants to wield that no trade clause or not. Yeah. No, that would be a fascinating part of it. It would be interesting to see who those teams would be because I can make a strong case that he's an upgrade over a lot of these quarterbacks for different teams. 100% I can make that case.

But it's also where they are in the building process and does he fit their timeline of what they're trying to do? And does he impede the progress of somebody young that they're trying to, you know, that they're willing to be good that isn't there yet. All right. So let me throw this out there for you. Why doesn't he make sense for like the Jets if they're really done with Wilson? Well, I think one of the things that the Jets would point out is their success is because of the waves of depth that they have along the line of scrimmage and that when you bring in a number like that, it's going to impact that in a pretty significant way.

And I think in some weird case, especially when they get back healthy next year with Verit Tucker and Bechtin coming back and Breece Hall coming back, I think they're weirdly set up to not be quarterback dependent, you know, to be paying that big of a number one. I don't think they're going to need that from the quarterback position. I'm wondering if a team that trades for him does something funky, where because there's no signing bonus involved, because it's all-based salary from here on now, do they say, all right, we'll redo this. We'll give you some guarantees up front and we'll get that 2023 cap number down to 12 million. And we'll keep a low in 2024 and be able to do some gymnastics here where maybe we'll eat a little bit of this on the back end, but it still gives us flexibility on the short term. You know, something like this is obviously different because it's not a quarterback, but like what the Browns did with a Mari Cooper this year, you know, is a good example of that.

Does some team think that they can do something like that where they get an upgrade in the short term, they give themselves flexibility in the short term, and they kind of get the best of both worlds. Yeah. No, that'll be an interesting one to keep an eye on. I think what goes on with them is largely dependent on what happens at the end of the season. You know, if this thing goes one way or the other, I think that decision will be made for

them. But I don't, if you were asking me today where we stand right now, I would lean towards him not being the quarterback of the Raiders next year. So with that savings, which there would be a lot of it, obviously. I think that had about $35 million in cap space, even if they kept him. So they'd have a lot more if they moved on from him. The question is the cash, by the way.

Then the question will be the cash. It's a very good point. It's a very good point with this team. So you're looking at it. You have one of the worst defenses in the league, and you have multiple starters on that side of the ball hitting free agency. Daron Harmon, Rock Yassine, Anthony Everett, not guys that were like building blocks for them, but guys who played a lot this year. So do you use that money that you saved to just start rebuilding that side of the ball?

I think that's kind of what you have to do, right? I think that's where you start. And I especially start in the secondary. I mean, they just, they've got to get better back there. So that would be the first place I would start. And then again, I just think when you watch, you know, you watch the video and you watch the cutups of them, you know, look, I just, I don't feel good about the. the center to right tackle side of that offensive line would not feel good about that at all. And those guys are also hitting free agency, by the way.

Illumador is a free agent. Alex Barr's a free agent. Again, it doesn't matter. Like these are guys that you can find wherever you want to, but they're going to have a lot of starters that have played a lot of snaps for them this year to replace this offseason with that money. Yeah, that that needs to happen. I mean, those are the two areas I think you have to address in this in this offseason. The good news is they're going to have, you know, obviously they have the space.

The question is after doling out a lot of cash like they did this last. offseason. What does the cash budget look like? 19.4 million dollar cap at next year for Chandler Jones. If you look at pro football focus, like their past rushing productivity, that just essentially pressures over opportunities. If you sort it by guys who have had 50% of their team's past rushing snaps

or more, there's like 60 of them. He ranks like 57th out of 60. And he's going to make $20 next year. With an absolute war daddy on the other side. Yes. With one of the best defensive players in the league on the other side. side. It's not a good situation. The bets they have made on that side of the ball have not worked out very well.

Carolina Panthers, four and eight, how did we get here? We could spend an hour on this. Is it possible? Is it possible, though? Like, am I, and this is just looking at them on the defensive side of the ball? I know they don't have, you know, we don't think they do. We'll see how Sam play is coming on a stretch. We don't think they have their quarterback, obviously, going forward. They're going to have a coaching change, a new coach coming in. I like love their defensive pieces that they have, man. I think they have a lot of pieces, period. Yeah. And you've got playmakers,

you've got some playmakers on offense. And you've got a left tackle who's just getting better and better as a rookie. So I actually, I normally advise, like people ask you like, which who, you know, if it's your Sean Payton or you're this,

you're the most sought after coach. Like I always go, look, you have to have an established quarterback. Everything else is a crap shoot. Don't go there if they don't have an established quarterback. I'm like, how this,

this roster is in pretty good shape outside of that position, man. It's so easy to talk yourself into it. And obviously, you know, the Mat Rule era is filled with just broken names and bodies at quarterback and offensive play caller. Bridgewater, Joe Brady, Sam Darnold, Ben McAdu, Baker, Mayfield. Like, that's what we're staring at now. I think they're 30th in EPA per play during his tenure there. And that includes a pretty decent year with Joe Brady and Teddy Bridgewater to start things off. So you can imagine what it's been like since.

But you kind of remove yourself from that. And you think about what comes next here, who the coach is becomes, I mean, it's somewhat a lot of these. Who's the coach who's the quarterback? And how do you go get those guys? So as it currently stands, they're picking fifth, all right? The Texans are taking a quarterback at one, almost guaranteed. The Lions potentially, as things stand right now, are picking ahead of them.

The Chicago Bears own the second pick. I'm listening. No, there's the phone call. I'm listening. They got that extra second from the McCaffrey trade. like what do you got for me? So they're in a position to potentially get the quarterback. If they like C.J. Stroud as that second guy, whoever it ends up being.

And I think then the question becomes who's the coach? And is it a Sean Payton team? Do they go somewhere else? Because if you find answers, reasonable answers at those two spots, there's a lot to like about the rest of the roster here. I mean, top to bottom, we can go through it. But there's a lot to like. Can I give you the name for them, by the way?

But Shane Steichen. I was with Shane with the Chargers. I like Shane a lot, man. He's done a great job working with Nick in Philadelphia. He's creative. He's not only creative in the past game. He's creative in the run game. I think he'd infuse some life into that group.

I think he'd be able to get the most out of some pretty intriguing pieces they have. He has an energy to him that sneaks up on you. You're not really ready for it. It's a goofy energy. It's a goofy energy, but it's authentic. It is very goofy. I have said this before. He looks and sounds exactly like Dax Shepard,

which you're not ready for it, but he has that like exact same vibe to him. And I think that guys have responded to that. And the creativity part is exactly what sticks out to me. His background is so interesting because when you watch those teams, you watch the Eagles play right now. Like that's not where he comes from. Like he's a Norv Turner guy who spent times with all,

spent some time with these different. Philip Rivers. Yes. And so the fact that this is what the offense looks like, I would be so bullish on it. That's a really interesting name. So you drop Shane Steichen into a situation where they draft a quarterback in the top five, potentially. Your offensive line next year is back.

Bradley Bozeman is hitting free agency. Elfline started for half this year. He could be back if you want to upgrade your center. You can, but your four other starters are there. DJ Moore is on this team. Okay. Brian Burns. Frankie Louvo is under contract.

J.C. Horn, Dante Jackson. Chin's missed a huge chunk of the season, but he's back now. He's a great talent, though, when he's a great talent, though, and he's a great. out there, man. And I mean, look at it. Terris Marshall's been pretty good in the opportunities he's gotten since they moved on from Robbie Anderson. How about just the how about just the inside outside with Derek Brown and Brian Burns and things of young, young players to build a front around. I mean, I think that as you know, by the way, by the way, I haven't, I have not studied them. I was talking to a head coach the other day. And we, that we were, I don't know why. The Panthers

came up in conversation and he said, have you watched any of C.J. Henderson lately? And I said, I haven't spent it. The Panthers haven't been super relevant, so I haven't spent a ton of time studying their defense. Obviously, I know what JC was coming out. And he said, C.J. Henderson's played his butt off since he went to Carolina.

He said, that's going to be one of the all-time steals. So, I mean, you have your two young, freaky first-round talent corners. You've got an inside rusher. You've got an outside rusher. I mean, that's a pretty darn good place to start on your defense. If they hit the quarterback and they hit the coach,

even at a reasonable level, I think that they can be competitive, of a lot faster than it might seem because of it. And look at the division out there. Yeah. Yeah. It's right there. It's right there for the table.

They might win that division this year. That's going to be interesting. I had a little note for all of these. Like is there a silver lining? Like there's a lot of silver lining with the Panthers in this conversation, which again, when you think about how bad the rule era was and just how beaten down people have to be there, like they're actually pretty well positioned all things considered. A team that I do not feel that way about is the Arizona Cardinals.

Oh, man. I just experienced that last weekend. They're four and eight. How we got here with the Cardinals, 31st in total team DVOA. The only team that's worse than them this season is the Houston, Texas. They are 28th on offense with Cliff Kingsbury and a quarterback that they just gave a boatload of money to. We talked about this with Mike Sando on our show yesterday,

but I really wanted to get your take on this. How would you even start fixing the Cardinals? That's a great question. their offensive line is awful. It's number one to me. The tape of the Minnesota Vikings and what they did was Zadarius Smith and poor Billy Price.

I mean, they just moved Zadiria Smith inside and just let him go to work on Billy Price. But they are not good across the board upfront offensively. That's a major issue. They don't have edge rushers. I mean, Majai Sanders has flashed a little bit. I think he's got a chance to be good.

He played pretty good against the charges the other day. But they don't have, a home run edge rusher. The 2D tackles actually played pretty good. JJ's having a good year. I was kind of surprised getting ready for that game and studying him how well he was playing. Zach Allen's a good player. He's played well for him.

Zach Allen's one of their lone young defensive player or young, one of their lone young players that's like a building block where it's like, oh, nice. Like they have like a foundational piece potentially. And I'll say this. I was talking to one of their coaches before the game. And I was talking to him and as their players came running out. and I said, holy crap.

I said, Zayv and Collins might be top five, like jaw dropping. Get off the bus guys. Body type in the entire league. He's played well this year. He's gotten better. He's made plays.

He had a pick in that game. He's going to be a nice piece for them going forward. Dude, he, and I did him during the draft, but maybe it was because the combine, you're up in the booth. I didn't get a chance to stand next to him. He is freaking enormous.

And so, you know, and Isaiah Simmons, they're still trying to figure exactly how to play and what to do with them. Buda Baker's, you know, it's a great player. But to me, it starts with the offensive line. The quarterback, I would say this. The buzzword of college football higher season used to be culture,

and now the buzzword is alignment. I don't know that there's alignment. They all got paid. I guess that aligns them from, from, you know, GM to head coach to quarterback, but I do not see any alignment with the vision of where that team's going forward. Do you assume that they hit the reset button with the major decision makers this offseason? I mean, the expectation from talking to people around the league is they won't do that because it's not in their, you know, in their history to want to do out those checks to do that.

But you can make a strong argument that they can't, they can't run this back. And some of it's hard to say, I can't, you know, say, oh, I was told this and I was told that. It just feels disjointed and dysfunctional when you're, around the group. It's funny when you mention the offensive line because I feel the exact same way. And there's almost like a cognitive dissonance when you think about them because I want their I want them to upgrade the offensive line, but I almost can't imagine this team with like a physical presence on offense and especially up front. Like it's almost impossible for me to picture them being that sort of team. And that's why I think they should do it because I think they need such a

revamp of everything they are to just become like a normal NFL team in some ways that that's what it needs to be it needs to be like this transformational step that they take with the structure of the offense with the personnel that they have all of that stuff because we think we've gotten to that place but i don't know what that looks like around this quarterback like it's hard for me to imagine that version of them and that's the hoop i think they're going to have to jump through it's a tricky one um and you know i was told you know keiler doesn't like being under center um it's exactly so he doesn't like doing that and you you've you know he's a weapon as a runner but he still doesn't love to do it from a design quarterback run standpoint they still

sprinkle in some of it but he doesn't love it he's lost a little bit of his willingness to really push the ball vertically downfield they really haven't had much of a vertical passing element um so it's uh that's going to be a tricky one to kind of put that whole thing together. But I just know that no matter what, you know, obviously you're married to Kyler. If you don't upgrade the offensive line, you don't have much of a chance. And they have, you know, I just come off a game, they ran the ball down the Chargers throats, which everybody's done all season.

They don't stop the run. It has not been difficult to do. But they, you know, even in saying that, they ran for all those yards. They have no juice back there. Like James Connor. And what were some 10 and 12 and 14 yard runs, you know, Kenneth Walker took those 75 when when they played the Seahawks. Like, they need some juice.

You talk about disalignment. Zach Ertz and James Connor are probably going to be on this team next year because of the contract extensions that they got this offseason. And you look at this team and it's just, it's just a bunch of mismatch pieces that don't really make a lot of sense. You don't really have any young players that you can build around. Like just that young connective tissue throughout the roster. They just don't have it.

And I think that's because they've missed on a lot of guys. And it's because they've traded away picks. You know, it's a second round pick here. It's a third round pick for Rodney Hudson there. It's a first round pick for Marquise Brown there. It's a second round pick for Andy Isabella. It's a second round pick for Rondale Moore. There's just so many holes because they either traded those away or they spent them on luxury items that you're looking at the roster.

And it's just like, where is the bulk of like an NFL team? And that's the problem. And then when you combine that with contracts for guys like Zach Earts, like James Connor, where they're trying to keep this band together that didn't sound that good in the first place from last season. I just don't really understand how it all was supposed to fit together. Well, they don't have a lot of premium players at the premium positions. And that's where they've invested their resources. And I just mentioned, you know, Zavon Collins, I think it's going to be a good piece for them going forward.

But, you know, multiple first round picks at the linebacker position and a place where you don't really have that budding tackle that, you know, DJ Humphrey's been okay. But they don't have a big time tackle. They don't have a big time corner. You know, D.Hops is older. you know, is still a great player, but you don't have that next guy coming up at that position. These are some of the marquee positions in the league, and they don't, and they have no edge rusher. I mean, so if I was going to prioritize it, offensive line would be first. Edge rusher would probably be the second piece that you have to add to this group.

And they'll, they're picking seventh right now, if you're looking at it, and who knows where that pick ends up. But they're going to be in a position to draft one of those premium players in a way that they haven't been over the last couple years because they've been frustratingly competent and competitive. in ways that have probably hurt them more than helped them. All right. Last one here. The Jacksonville Jaguars are four and seven. How do we get here with the Jags? Two and six in one score games,

which is not a good place to start when you're trying to win football games. They have a positive point differential this year, even though they're four and seven. They blew the chargers out. So that added that. That certainly helps, but they have a positive point differential. And I think the other key aspect of this

and why they've been a little bit disappointing, especially over the last month or so, their defense is really falling off. They were playing very well over the first month of the season. They are 30th in past defense DVOA right now. I will say, before we get into this, this one's tinged with a little bit more happiness and optimism than some of these other conversations

because the building block and where we're starting from is a little bit better. But what comes next tier for the Jags, in your opinion? Well, again, coaching quarterback, I feel great about. I think most people would feel great, especially what we've seen from Trevor when we saw the other day

and where that's trending, that there were, and I know PFF, I guess does the big time throws. I don't know what number they put on that, but in watching the tape of that game to get ready for our Monday show, I mean,

there was a handful, five or six or like, okay, these are big time. Like these are some like Justin Herbert type whole shots here, big time, big time throws.

So that's encouraging. I think where you go from here, I think it's a defensive officer. season. You continue. They've done some nice things up front with their front seven. I love the young linebackers that they have. I think you're going to be really,

really good players. Devin Lloyd and Chad MoMA, those are guys you can build around in the middle of your defense. Obviously, you have the first overall pick to go along with Josh Allen up front. I think they're going to be fine there. I just think you got a, this is kind of a double down,

you know, corner type year. Adding two of those guys in the off season is going to be a great place to start. Yeah, they kind of had this cycle. where they spend a lot of money in free agency, and then about two years into those contracts, they cut all those guys and then spent a bunch of money

in free agency again. And that's likely what's going to happen. So I was shocked by this. You know the Jags right now, without any moves, would be third in defensive cap spending next season? Wow. Third.

Second in the secondary. They would have the second most expensive. Which is not a good return on investment on that one. They have 30th and past defense DVOA. Yeah. And then they have the second most expensive secondary in the league heading into next season. It's not hard to trace how you get there. Shaq Griffin's on a massive deal.

Darius Williams is on a massive deal. Rayshon Jenkins is on a massive deal. They could theoretically move on for multiple guys. Roy Robertson Harris is somebody else that got a lot of money from them recently. So they're going to have, hopefully, a little bit of financial wiggle room to address some of those spots. And then you look at the offense. Tyson Campbell's a good piece, though. At least you have Tyson Campbell back.

And he's young, he's cheap, which, you know, that's certainly helpful. Cisco has, you know, on a rookie deal. So some of the guys that have been contributors for them are cheap. So how do you spend some of that money? Where do you go find a couple of those pieces in the secondary? And I think now Calvin Ridley is on his way. So now you have Calvin Ridley. God, you know, I totally forgot about that, by the way.

I mean, it's easy to forget about it. If he shows up and is what he's been. So now you have Calvin Ridley, Zay Jones, who has played well for them in the role that he's been given, Christian Kirk. It all kind of makes more sense when you drop Calvin Ridley into it. So we'll see what Calvin Ridley is. But if he is a very good NFL receiver, not even an elite one, what does that mean for them? And then I think the other big question is Joanne Taylor is a free agent.

So they're going to hopefully have to figure out what they're going to do at right tackle. But if you have Ridley and he's really good, you're taking other stuff forward with Lawrence. And maybe you add one guy with some real juice to their pass catching core. in the second, third round of the draft, whatever it ends up being, this team is already like a top 10ish passing offense by most efficiency metrics with the way that they're currently built. So they crash and burn, but not in a way that I think is very deflating.

I think it's really easy to talk yourselves into where they're at right now. Yeah, I will also add, though, just knowing Doug and then looking at Trent's background, like we can talk about needs they might have in the secondary. We can, you know, talk about different pieces that they might add. They're going to go to the line of, scrimmage with their early picks. You know that's happening 100%. So, I mean, Doug's just seen it. He's seen it up close. And then Trent with the good Niner teams he was around saw it as well, like just the defensive front depth as well as having some, some big time dudes up front

offensively. I don't know what Cam Robinson is going to be their long term guy there at left tackle. So he's on what? Is this, is this his second year being franchise or is this his first year being extension? They extended. Oh, did they did. They did him. I didn't know that they did extended him. When did that go down? I missed that one. They did it like right before the season started, I want to say. Okay. I see.

And he's one of those ones. I'd be, I'd have to go back and look at the contract. Oh, weird. It was, it was, it was in April.

It was like right around the draft. It was right around the draft. That's why. I wonder if it was right before, right after. It was right before. So it was April 27th. So it was like the week of the draft,

which is why no one noticed it. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that was a little busy that week. Yeah, yeah. That was some other stuff going on. That one skipped by.

one skip by the goalie. But again, like he's kind of, as curious, as I thought he's, he's been a, a good player. I don't think he's an elite level player,

but he's just a solid player. We talked about DJ Humphreys earlier. Like there's that entire tier of left tackles that, I mean, he's making $18 million a year on this extension. So those guys are him, Jake Matthews, DJ Humphreys,

those guys where you just want to make sure you have somebody there to allow your offense to operate. And I think that he's one of those guys. So I do think that, you know, drop Lidly and who knows what it's going to look like, but you feel the lack of speed when you watch them. Like, it's just a real thing when, because Christian Kirk just hasn't been allowed to be that for

them because of what he has to be for their passing game. Like he's their number one receiver right now. So just having Ridley to kind of have everything else fall into place in a way that makes a little bit more sense. Plus, you know, figuring out what the final one or two pieces are and then spending some of that free agent money on defense. Like, it's hard to argue with the trajectory that they're on. I mean, watch that game on Sunday.

It's like, okay. Yeah. Like I, I feel okay about this right now, which I cannot say about some of the other teams that we've talked about. Yeah, I mean, just quarterback head coach of all the teams that we've gone through.

I mean, this would be the cherry pick for all of us. Would be like, okay, that one, I'll buy it on that one. I'll buy a lot of that stock. Yeah.

I mean, we're talking about five more teams here with Jordan here in a bit. And I think that's the big question is, who's going to be the quarterback, who's going to be the coach? And the Jags do not have to worry about the answer to either of those for the foreseeable future. All right. Daniel Jeremiah really really appreciate the time my friend it is always great to chat with you

thank you for stopping by and hopefully we'll do this again very soon I appreciate you last question have you read all the books over your shoulders uh no there are some that I still need to get to but uh I'm I've made my way through most of them I would say most of the ones in here I have read most of the ones on my nightstand and at various other bookshelves around the house I have not read yet so they when they design this, when the network designed this, they sent me books. So I am surrounded by books that I am not familiar with. So I know at some point in time, somebody's going to do one of these deals where they like zoom in and they're like, dude, that's a very, you know, it's a sketch book.

I don't know. They just sent them to me and I just, they put them up. I don't know. I don't know what. I can't speak for it. Thankfully, I have bought most of these books. So I can speak to where they come from and what the general subject matter is. So that's a good thing. No, I'm clueless. Absolutely Cool. All right, man. I really appreciate it. Always good to do this. I know you're a busy guy.

So thank you very, very much for taking the time. I appreciate you, bud. Have you going. I'll talk you soon. All right, guys, that's all we have for part one.

Please go check out part two of this conversation with Jordan Rodriguez. In the meantime, really appreciate you listening. Please subscribe to the athletic football show YouTube channel. If you have not already, you can do that in the link that is in the description

of this podcast below. Please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com slash football show is where you can do that. Part two is available with Jordan right now. A little bit later today. Prospects to Prospects to Pros with Andy Staples and Dan Brugler is going to be available in your feed. And me and Nate will be back on Thursday with our Week 13 preview. Until then, appreciate you guys listening.

We'll talk to you soon. This was The Athletic Football Show.