The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Football GM: Cardinals owner accused of ‘burner phone’ scheme, Hendon Hooker evaluation, Randy Mueller’s top CBs in the 2023 NFL Draft & more

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

Mike Sando and former GM Randy Mueller discuss the ‘burner phone’ scheme and accusations against Cardinals owner Michael Bidwill. Plus, Randy shares his evaluation of Hendon Hooker as well as his top CBs in the 2023 NFL Draft. They wrap by talking about what’s going on in New England between Mac Jones and Bill Belichick. Follow Mike on Twitter: @SandoNFLFollow Randy on Twitter: @RandyMueller_Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube4:14 Hendon Hooker evaluation14:10 Do the Texans have to draft a QB at No. 2?19:25 Ravens pre-draft press conference 21:47 Randy’s top CBs in the 2023 NFL Draft37:32 Cardinals owner accused of ‘burner phone’ scheme49:11 Mac Jones/Bill Belichick situation  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome everybody to the Football GM podcast, Mike Sando from the Athletic, along with the GM. Randy Mueller. Randy, you are GMing. How's your day going with the Seattle Sea Dragons based out of Texas, of course? You're using that term loosely, but it feels like any particular day, Mike, might seem like about four in the lives of somebody in these shoes. in the XFL. So every day's fun. It's been an awesome experience. As you know, we're five and two and riding a five-game winning streak, but it really means nothing because we got to win a couple

games to get in the playoffs, and there's only three left. So it's kind of fun. It's great to see young men have reason at their professional level to kind of crank it up, whether it's doing a podcast or doing whatever you do, there's certain parts in everybody's daily job where you get to crank it up a little more. Well, that's kind of where we are in the XFL season is they get to crank it up a little bit and actually play for a playoff berth, which in our world is a big thing, no matter what, the level. So it's kind of fun. And we see that on these guys' faces this week. So it's, it's been a long seven weeks to get here, but we've got three more to go. So it's interesting. I just love sports for all that stuff, Randy. And we're going to get a bunch of topics.

And we're going to revisit the quarterback rankings in the draft. And we got cornerback rankings. We got a lot of stuff, but just the thrill of sports and a locker room coming together. You know, it's funny. After the NCAA tournament, Randy, I like went back and watched like three or four of those One Shining Moment videos and I get a little misty-eyed watching them. But like to see the coach coming to the locker room and they're just, you know, what it's all about. And that's at any level that you're playing out, whether it's the XFL. A team can come together.

Isn't that kind of high school? Yeah. Anything, yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. So what's the deal then? So you're five and two and then when did a playoff start? Well, we have three weeks. It's a 10-game regular season.

We happen to play the D.C. defenders who are the best team in the league have one loss. They're six-and-one, but we play them in Seattle this weekend, hoping to get a decent crowd in Seattle and actually have home field mean something. They beat us the first game of the year in D.C. We fumbled the ball in the one-yard line on the last play of the game going in to win the game. So it'll be a fun rematch. And we have two more games after that. League games.

We are in the north, the South Division, we kind of wandered our way through and find a way. found a way to win those games. So we have three regular season games left, a playoff game, and then the championship, which is, I think it's April 13th in San Antonio. So we're getting down to it now. And like I say, you can tell the level has been ratcheted up, no matter what the job, no matter what the league. And when the games mean more, it seems like it's a lot more fun for all of us.

Oh, an interesting game. I live in Seattle area. I need to get out there. Wife's going out of town this weekend. There you go. I've got an open spot for you. Awesome. Fun, fun stuff.

Love football. Love it. I think the last time I went was probably that pandemic year, maybe right before that, I guess. Yeah, the pandemic closed down the XFL 2.0, as they say. And this is the comeback version of it. But it's been a great year, you know, The Rock, Redbird Capital, Danny Garcia. They've been awesome to work for. And I've put this thing together with ESPN and our games are all on ESPN.

So it's been fun for these kids to get the experience. exposure and there'll be a lot of guys that people will be watching next year on Sundays. There's a lot of NFL talent. So it's kind of cool. I think I told you when I went, I ended up in a box with Lofa Tatupu. You know, he used to play for the CX and I used to cover him. Lofa was like, I think I could still play. He was getting excited watching it.

He's like, I think I'm going to have a comeback, you know, because it's just football. It's right there in front of us. No doubt. Here it is in April. We got the draft coming up. Before we get to your cornerback rankings, you did have a special. request this week because you looked at another quarterback and if people that don't remember me it was a couple weeks ago Randy did go through his top I think you you stack the four most talked about

quarterbacks in the draft and I believe right you had CJ Stroud just narrowly above Bryce Young at the top of them you felt like we're top five type picks right no reservations and then you had I think will Levis of Kentucky was maybe later first round somewhere in there but not ideally really high and then Anthony Richardson was a little bit more developmental. Who did you look at and why do you want to talk about him? Well, the other kid that I saw that's starting to get a little attention with the analysts that ride the big platforms. So that's Hendon Hooker, the quarterback from Tennessee.

And I had not seen him yet. I went and watched some tape this week and he clearly should be in the mix there. I think he's an interesting case study for a lot of reasons and would be fun to talk about. You know, he's 25 years old. He tore his ACL in November. So there's some existing circumstances there that will force teams to make some interesting decisions. But when you watch the kid play, a top-notch athlete processes from the pocket can make all the throws. Really a pro-style passer, which is different than kind of a thrower who might run around and extend plays.

This guy's accurate. He gets the ball out. He's very fundamentally sound. I had heard about him. And, you know, all the scouts know all these guys, but we as outsiders kind of get on some guys late. He would definitely be in the mix for me in the first round. And I think the decision teams you're going to have to make is because physically he has all the skills. And his character is, it sure sounds like it's impeccable.

A plus character guy, smart guy. The big decision is, how early do you draft one? That's 25, going to be 20. next year. He is coming off an ACL injury. And I thought it might be fun. And I'd like to get your opinion on this, Mike, as we fit him into our top five, which for me, he's probably a better player right now than Will Levis is. Yeah. And so I could see somebody picking him third in the bunch. But here's the thing. If he has an ACL and if he's 25 years old, you know, a first round pick comes with a five-year deal. A second round pick comes with a four-year deal. A second round pick comes with a four-year deal.

what's good and what's not good when you have to consider a player like this is age and the fact that this first year may be a wash because of the knee. He's definitely going to miss all of camp and really vital learning periods along the way. So you're going to wash a year. So would you take him at 32 to get a five-year deal? You know, so you have it for four more years when he gets healthy? Or do you wait because he's already 25 going to be 26 and invest the second round pick. So there's pros and cons to both sides of that. But as a player, I really liked him,

Mike, and I think he's an NFL starting quarterback. So somebody's going to take a bite of this apple. And I think there's a lot less risk with him than even with Levis and for sure with Richardson. And I understand someone's going to draft Levis High and Richardson way higher than I would. I'm just saying, having been a guy in that chair, making that selection, when you give me all the options around it of clean players who we can count on right now being really good and impactful players, I would struggle drafting a Richardson. I would probably struggle drafting a Levis high in the first round because there's other players that are going to be more impactful sooner and with less risk involved. So that's kind of the tradeoff for me. And I see Hooker as a less risk guy

figuring that you're still going to get even at his age, seven, eight, nine, ten years out of this guy. Just some interesting dynamics to consider for decision makers. Yeah. So for me, the four to five year differential thing, that's only something I'm considering if I'm right there. If he's available and I'm at 28 or 32 or something, then I might be thinking about that. But that wouldn't be a driving factor in whether to consider him for me. That's sort of a neat thing after the draft. When we say, hey, and we got him on the such and such year deal.

But if you really like the player at that position, I don't have a problem at all with taking him. The age thing really doesn't bother me at all either because you're really looking at, what, two contracts worth to really feel great about it. You get a second contract eight years. He's going to play eight years probably if he's a good quarterback like you said who handles the pocket well and he's not going to be putting himself at, you know, getting worn down physically because he's running all the time or something like that. That doesn't scare me.

In fact, you may get somebody who's more mature. And then the injury, no one's concerned that he will heal. from it. It's not like it's a catastrophic thing. The injury to me almost just buys us a little bit of time, which we need for expectations on these guys anyway. So many times they're measured on that first year. So if I'm Chris Ballard at four, and I, you know, my owner's on me. Shoot, it's been too long. We haven't gotten one. And yet I don't want to take Will Levis or Anthony Richardson at four. Right. Maybe I don't want to take Hooker at four, but can I get somewhere else? Can I get somewhere else and get him somewhere?

I would have no problem with your evaluation of him describing that way. The first round pick isn't, you know, if you're picking him 15th or something, to me, that's not a huge difference than 35th if it's a quarterback, right? I mean, this is somebody you believe in could lead your franchise and it's just like, why mess around, right? Why would you get cute and say, we'll try to get him in the second round if you think he's a starting quarterback and there's only four of them in the draft. Yeah, I agree.

And these are the conversations that happen in every draft room about multitudes of players, a lot of people. And I don't know if the Colts have their second round pick. I should know that. I'm an idiot for not having done their research. I'm going to look at all their picks right now. But if they did have a second round, maybe it's one where you take your best player with the first pick and use that second round any way you can to get back up in the bottom of the first to draft a guy like soccer.

Yeah, they have 35. They have 35. And there you go. then I would probably find a way to move that 35 up as much as I could and still get a really good player picking at the top of the first round. Yes. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I love that Eval too. I mean, because, you know, we've been thinking in terms of really two guys that you, for sure, maybe three in the first round, but that's nice to have another one in there. And I would think that it's very plausible that others could have Hooker ahead of Will Levis. too, right? Just prefer. No doubt. I think the key is, and people that on the outside don't always get a chance to see this. And even myself, guys like me, we don't know as much, and I've made this point before, we don't know as much as the teams do. We haven't spent time with these guys face to face. We don't

know how they learn and how they actually process information. But in just watching the tape, I had less concerns, less questions about Herndon because I felt like he was seeing the field. he was processing it at an NFL level, and I thought he'd be able to handle the system that's going to be thrown at him no matter where he ends up in the NFL level. I didn't see a lot of mistakes. I didn't see a lot of carelessness with the ball. For me, he was just pretty complete. And again, those two things that we mentioned, the age and the injury, or we might be talking

about a guy that's in the top 10 or top five, you know, comparably compared just in your evaluations per se. And those things aren't going to prevent him from playing well in 2024, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 30, whatever. I mean, we can't project beyond that because no one even has the jobs that long, right? Right. You're not, a long term is three years in our business. Yeah. Yeah.

So to me, you get a little bit of a, maybe you get a little bit of a runway with him because the expectations of the outside or your owner or whatever. Everyone knows from day one what the guidelines are that he's going to take a little bit of time, but we really like him. and we think we got a guy. So that's a great, great discovery there. We'll throw him into the mix. Well, it's not like he's a secret because people know about him.

Yeah. I mean, for us, for us and what we're doing. Yeah, putting this together. I'm glad to add him in. He deserves to be in the conversation. I do, Randy.

I probably should read more of the draft stuff. I just, I prefer being at 5,000 feet a little bit on it. I think, especially for me, I'm not an evaluator. I'm not going to go watch. the film and then have an informed opinion. I'm going to listen to a few people like you who really know what they're doing and then put

it together. Well, and the difference is, and I'm with you, and this is not a discouragement on anybody who is a draft nick per se or that does the evaluations. That is one opinion in a draft room where there may be 10. There might be eight. And so we build consensus. And that is the big thing that people don't understand is my opinion. the coach's opinion, a couple scouts opinions, the college director's opinion.

It's all about building consensus. So it's really what we see in here and what the consumer gets is one person's opinion, whether you follow, you know, and there's a multitude of guys that are really good at what they do as far as the evaluations of a single player. But that's why I think it's so different evaluating a singular player than building a team. And you have to build the team with different concepts, different building blocks, different philosophies, and that comes into play, and therefore it's not all about, you know, drafting this one guy because you feel that team needs a quarterback or needs a running back.

It's just a bigger picture, if that makes any sense. Yep. I wanted to bounce one thing off of you talking about draft nicks or people that do the draft. I really like Lance Zerlind. I don't know if you know, Lance. His dad, Larry, coached offensive line in the league for a number of years. But Lance does a great job. I think he writes a lot of the write-ups maybe all.

on NFL.com or somewhere. But anyway, I've crossed paths with them a couple of times. And he's out of Houston. So they figure he's got some proximity to Houston. And he was asked for kind of a non-conventional take on the draft. And he said this, the Texan could pass on a quarterback at two if Bryce Young is not there. We get a lot of smoke screens before the draft and all of that. Does that seem plausible in any way to you?

That they would pass on Bryce Young? No, that if Bryce Young is not there at two. So let's just say Bryce goes. one, that would leave C.J. Stroud, the Texans would not take one. Is there any chance you could see that? I guess there's always a chance, but it depends who you ask on how you have them rated. You know, you're asking a guy that I think C.J. Straub is the best quarterback, but I've heard guys I respect say, it's not even close that Bryce Young is the best. So it just goes to tell you, where they get picked isn't going to matter. Where players get picked is not

vindication or validation of anybody's. Ranking. evaluation at all. It's just where they are for the moment of time. And then it's about how they become a player or not. So do I think the Texans have to pick a quarterback? No, I don't. I think they would, there'll be some teams. I'm telling him, Mike, there's going to be half the teams that don't agree with the theory of Bryce Young is the next Michael Jordan.

They just won't because of the obvious, the obvious things with him. So, you know, I could, I wouldn't beat them up if they didn't. take a quarterback. I get it. I see what they see. But I'm not convinced that, you know, Bryce Young is going to be picked first either. So no, I think don't I would lean towards CJ Shroud, would you? I do, but I've heard others that again, that that I respect and have been part of processes in the NFL before who, who think that Bryce Young is the second coming. And it is and he is a good player. I get it. But there comes with some stipulations there. So, but to get back to your question, I don't think.

the Texans have to draft a quarterback. I really don't. And, you know, I hope they get the best player on their board. They should get the number one player on their board, whoever that is. And their process is going to take them to that. If they're, if they're loyal to the process, if they stick to it, they will get the best player on their board, probably, because it won't be the best player on the board that the Carolina Panthers rate number one. Unless it's Bryce Young, well, they could both have Bryce Young on their board, I mean, I suppose. They could both have CJ Stroud, too, and Bryce young down the list. Then all you do is change the board after you pick them.

We got our top guy. Well, we talked that, but they don't do that in real life. So it is what it is. That's why it is fascinating because it is a giant process that we don't often get inside to know all the facts that these teams know. There's players in this draft that are in the first round that I know for a fact, a couple teams don't even have those cards on their team on their board. They've taken it off for character and for medical.

Yep. I used to dread the medical media. that came 10 days before the draft with our doctors, Mike. I used to tick me off because I know that they know more than me, and I knew sitting down that they could ruin my day by taking some information that I don't have yet and turning the draft upside down. Now, the character stuff usually gets massaged, and that gets managed above us decision makers because you've got to make sure the owner's okay with it.

Sometimes you've got to make sure the owner's family is okay with it and everything else. And we kind of know what those answers are because we know our ownership groups. We know the people involved. Medical is a wild card. You don't know anything what might come up out of the blue and force you to. And a lot of times it's not first round players, but players that you really like in the second and third round. And all of a sudden the doctor says, you know, he's got no ACL or he's got bone on bone in one knee. And he's probably not going to get to a second contract, you know.

then you got to say, well, you know what, I'm going to do it anyway. Don't the doctors want to protect themselves, though, too, just instinctively of like, oh, hey, I told you this guy was going to be, because if you take a guy and he ends up having the medical issue, it's kind of on the doctor, right? Is it, is it, do you, I used to feel, it talked to teams sometimes, like in free agency, they felt like they were somewhat limited maybe by a doctor here or there. And I always laughed because, remember when Ron Wolf acquired Brett Farr, they failed him on the physical. They said he would only play four or five years because he was in a car accident

had a bad hip. He set the record for the most games. So that's an interesting one to me of a doctor kind of ruining your board when what's the doctor fully motivated by? Sorry, doctors out there. I'm sure you're doing a great job. But it seems like if I was a doctor, I could be like, hey, let's hear on the side of I didn't vouch for this guy. Right. No, I hear you. The medical meeting is a grind. And it is one of disappointment more times. not. There'll be somebody you like in each draft that you're not going to be able to draft, but you got to go with it. I've stated a few holiday ends, but I'm no doctor, and I got to go with what they say they're smarter than me. All right. Before we get to your cornerback rankings,

while we're still talking about quarterbacks, did you, did you see the Ravens pre-draft press conference clip? I did not, but I've been told by a couple that it was kind of awkward, yeah. Well, basically, they're holding a pre-draft press conference. I don't know. People know this, like, every team kind of has to do a pre-draft press conference. It's sort of the rules. So you can get up there and say nothing, or you can kind of set your narrative and act like our picks available or not available.

We might trade down, all of that type of stuff. They got a bunch of questions about Lamar, and about the third one was a question trying to say something along the lines of, hey, given the situation with Lamar, are you evaluating the quarterbacks? You're looking at them any differently in the draft Ravens. And the senior vice president of communications interrupted and said, No, no, Lamarck, we're talking about the draft.

And John Harba had this look like a deer in headlights look. It was very awkward like he was. Again? Again, you mean? Frozen in time. Frozen totally forward. And then his eyes kind of went sideways, like to the PR person. And we got another awkward moment in Ravens' offseason quarterbacking.

So, hey, they're picking 22nd, maybe hookers for them. Well, I'll say this. And no team has been more loyal to a particular player. So you can criticize the Ravens for whatever you want. You cannot criticize them for not being loyal to a fault with Lamar Jackson. Now, they have picked no other lane. They've given no indication that they'll ever pick another lane. They've been all in for Lamar Jackson from day one.

And I couldn't have done it, to be honest with you. So they should be commended. I would have found another option just in case, just to cover my backside. They haven't. if they think Hunley is a viable NFL starting quarterback, and I get it, God bless them, but there's not many of us that could go that route with a straight face and say we have this solved without even looking outside of our own building.

So that's a struggle. Yeah, I do think, though, in the end, that I have a hard time believing Lamar Jackson is going to sit out and miss $2 million a week. So it may be awkward, but I bet you in the end he comes in and plays. Now, the question is it's a new offense in this whole thing of offseason not being there. That makes it harder. from him to maybe come in and play well.

And if they do take a quarterback early, by the way, they still need help at wide receiver to help Lamar. So it's a little messy. A little messy. That is a lot about quarterbacks. As promised, we are going to discuss cornerback prospects in this draft. Randy, last year you had Trent McDuffie as your top corner. He ended up going to Kansas City.

The chiefs traded up for him. There were a couple of other maybe taller, longer guys that did go early. Derek Stingley, Soss Gardner. We're high in everybody's rankings. As we talk about the corners this year, I wanted to revisit that a little bit so that you could just talk to the, explain to the listeners what it is you look for in a corner. And certainly McDuffie had a really good year. Looks like he's going to be a really good player.

What do you look for and how are we going to apply that today? Well, I think it's also obvious that Soss Gardner played well and being as accolated as he is, I think it should be clear to our listeners that it is somewhat about style. It is about scheme. It is about what we're going to ask these guys to do. And what the Jets did in implementing Soss Gardner was obviously awesome. And he plays a lot of press. He does have the length to play certain schemes better than others, and they were able to

accentuate those strengths. So that is always a factor, especially in the evaluation of corners and defensive backs. I always feel like the versatile guys are the most valuable to me. And I thought, going back to last year's draft, that McDuffie was the most versatile. So that's why I liked him the best. There happens to be some guys in this year's draft that are both long press corners that can play with some versatility in the schemes. And what I'm talking about is we all saw how sauce his length can allow him to

press receivers at the line of scrimmage. He can play press man. He can play press bail. There were some other things in zone coverage that he really wasn't asked to do in college, and they don't ask him to do with the Jets. So I was impressed if we just went down my list this year with the group as a whole. And there's five guys that I think right off the bat are all worthy of first round picks. And most of these guys, I think every one of them is over six foot tall. There's a couple that are six one, six twoish. So they have some of that, not, sauce length at 6-3 or 6-4, but they have length to play multiple, you know, to play the ball, I should say, better than smaller, more compact guys.

But yet they can also play off coverage. They can play press. They can play bail. Different schemes call for different things. So it just happens to be that my first corner this year is a kid from Oregon, Christian Gonzalez. He was a two-year player at Colorado transferred this year to Oregon. So he's really 20 years old.

a redshirt sophomore, which I find as a really valuable asset to get a 20-year-old kid who has upside like you can't believe. He runs 4-3-8. And the things I saw with Christian that make him the top guy for me are he is really smooth. He's really effective in his transitions. There's no wasted motion. He runs easy. He tracks long balls really good. He makes plays on the ball. If I was going to be nitpicky a little bit about his play. It's his inconsistency at times playing the ball, and he will miss a tackle. I think he has the best framework for what I think could be a really good corner,

maybe even an all-pro or a pro-bow level guy. And the things that we don't know, weight room strength, how he learns best, how he adapts personalities to fit into locker rooms, those are things we don't know. So I just remind folks that this is just a video analysis. In a Christian's case, four interceptions, six PBUs. He's played against tough competition, both in practice and on Saturdays. So I really liked him as the number one guy.

And I'll be honest, I didn't know much about him before I started looking at these top eight or ten guys. But he's shown he could do it all for you, zone, whatever it is. For me, he can play zone. He can play man. He's adaptable to any scheme. and I love the length and skill set to develop. I think the technique is slightly inconsistent, but again, that's really with the way he plays the ball.

There's another one. In fact, the next guy is very similar. These guys are accomplished players, and just in comparison, I would put Christian ahead of last year's, the Washington kid, why am I missing his name? Well, Trent McDuffie, right? Trent McDuffie, yeah.

I would put the first two guys in this draft ahead of him as well. So needless to say, good player. He's going to go high. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a top 10 pick. Loved everything I saw about him. The second guy for me was Joey Porter, and this is Joey Porter Jr., the corner from Penn State. He's a little longer, I think, than even Christian,

at just under 6'2, almost 200 pounds. He's 22 years old and a junior. So you have two less years to develop him, and that's really what determined for me which one I would pick. Gonzalez over Porter. Very athletic, a little bit raw in his technique. I will say this, all of these top corners get away with using their hands a lot on Saturdays, and they won't be able to do that on Sundays. So there's a little bit of a transition period for them to realize that NFL referees are going to call all this stuff. And they get their fair share of penalties on Saturdays, and I think at times it's very

frustrating for fans to watch. It's frustrating for coaches to watch. And they need, and we'll have to develop more discipline at the next level. But Joey Porter has no physical limitations, can close from a downhill position. He can play press and run with people. He can redefine routes by jamming people. This guy allowed 143 yards and pass catches in 10 games. Really a good number for me. And you're the numbers guy.

But I think in this case, the numbers back up the evaluation. At times he will ease up because I think he gets bored. Joey Porter Jr. reminded me of Sean Springs. When I looked at Sean Springs, when we're in Seattle, we're in the third pick of the draft. And there were several plays that Sean got beat on his senior year, not many, but let's say he got beat on eight or ten of them. Six of them, I felt like he was bored to death,

and that's why he got beat. I see Joey in the same fashion. I think he gets bored at times. He will take chances when he doesn't have to. But let's face it, when these guys are the best athletes on the field, they can try things, they can get away with things, and they can be somewhat casual at times, and they won't be able to do any of that at the NFL level. So he was the second guy for me.

I was just going to say on the stats on that one of them we had on the athletic was he did not allow a touchdown as the primary defender on any of his 275 coverage snaps of the year. The other thing I think of is these pedigrees are kind of cool to me. So Sean Springs' dad was Ron Springs, who was a top player for the Dallas Cowboys, obviously. Joey Porter Jr. I mean, his dad, got as fearsome as a player as you're going to get.

Does that stuff matter to you? You know where, you know where they're coming from? It very much matters to me. I think the gene pool is a giant advantage for the most part, especially in these two guys' case. I happen to

had Joey with me with the Dolphins so I know how he's wired. And this kid, Joey, Jr., is not wired like his dad, but I can see similarities and personality just by watching the tape, which is crazy. I don't even have to have talked to this kid to kind of know what he's thinking and how he's playing,

especially when you know his dad. So all positives in this case. I think the biggest thing to answer your question is, I know that the game will not be too big for him because they both grew up around the game. Sean Springs grew up around it. His dad, like you said, was a player. Joey Jr. grew up around it. It's not going to be too big for him.

They've thought of themselves, I guarantee you as NFL players their whole life because their dad did it. So they were in that world. Yep. Okay. Who do you got third? The third guy for me is from Illinois, Devon Witherspoon, six foot, a little slight at 180 pounds. Play speed for me is more important than time speed. And in this case, Witherspoon plays for me 4-50.

He allowed 22 catches all year long, and he was targeted 63 times, ended up with three picks and four PbUs. He plays slot for the most part. I think that put him at a little disadvantage in that I'm a little disadvantage in that I I know more about Gonzalez and Porter as full out every down corners, but Witherspoon is physical. He's very aggressive. I want to say he has a little bit of a safety mentality in that he will hit almost too aggressively at times, but he's still really good in transitions. I love his reactions. His hips are not tight. He can turn and run without losing ground. I thought his downhill Hill breaking ability kind of set him apart.

He can set his feet and drive without any hesitation. It's going to take a perfect throw to beat this guy. He plays the ball really well. And like I said, in my opinion, he hits like a safety, especially for 180 pound guy. He too is going to get some penalties with his hands. I thought he was more sudden than smooth. And I would say this as a mover, Gonzales and Porter are really smooth. I think Witherspoon is more sudden, a little more herky jerky.

but I also think as a nickel guy, and he'll play corner at our level, no doubt about it, but he might be viewed by some as the third corner or a nickel guy. He'll be a really effective player at the NFL level. So I like him a lot, and that's why I had him as the third guy. Your fourth guy is interesting to me because you have him higher than some other people do. Who do you got? I like Cam Smith from South Carolina. I think he's a really good player.

And another guy that plays with some length, he plays some nickel stuff for them now a lot of the he has catch-up speed. He's really good in transition. His hip turns are easy. A slight step in the bucket with technique, and that is when he's backpedaling and recovers to come downhill. There's a slight hesitation there. Very much, like I say,

a very much lackadaisical in periods when playing against lesser competition. So he's going to have to find a way to put that behind him. I liked a lot about him. him, a 22-year-old kid, one interception, five PBUs. For me, he was the fourth out of this group. And I have no idea how others view these players. I haven't read on them.

I haven't seen on them too much. So I don't know that this will fall out of line, but I would have no problem picking this guy really early. And that's Cam Smith from South Carolina. Yeah. So how many guys, when we were doing this, how many have you looked, are you looking at a dozen? Are you looking at?

Yeah, I'd say I probably looked at 10 or 11 guys. and what most lists generated just from listening to a few people. Yeah, yeah. Not in their breakdowns, but just to get the names and get them lined up correctly. Yes. So, he's a tall guy, six foot one on the lighter side, right? It's about 180 pounds. But that's-

Nobody likes him is what you're going to tell me. He's way down the list on all the geniuses. No, I don't know. I only looked at a couple, and this is great. I love this type of learning for me. because if it matches what everybody else has, then we just might as well read what everyone else has, right? But yours don't because you do your own work,

you have your own perspective, and there's always somebody. There's always guys. I mean, last year we were talking about Bailey Zappi, or we're talking about Isaiah likely, way before other people were talking about him in that realm. So I love this on Camp Smith from South Carolina is your number four, and who do you have fit?

The fifth guy for me is Deonté Banks, a kid from Maryland. Another junior, another 22-year-old kid, a good-sized kid. This guy is almost 200 pounds. He's a thick-built kid who has durability, in my opinion. He ran 4-35. He had a great workout, vertical 42 inches, 11-4 broad. A very handsy player, but an easy pedal guy.

He runs deep, easy. He's got speed to keep up with anybody at the NFL level. I like the way he plays with aggressive kind of, he's he puts what's a word i'm looking for he he puts um he has thick skin he puts any caution out the door he plays like he's the only guy on the field and i like that um he's also a kickoff returner as a younger kid um but here's the reason he was five for me is because they play so little zone that that most of his stuff is impressed man and what we used to call cat coverage you know cover cover that cat and that's what he does he runs with people

I don't think he's played a lot of football. I did a little bit of research on him. He came from a small high school, a smaller league, not a lot of coaching at that level. So he's had to progress more since coming out of college, I mean, since coming out of high school. But I really like the way he turns and runs with deep stuff. That is rare when the guys, he can pedal,

he can turn his hips and keep up without losing a step, really good. Just a lot of individual traits. that I think will translate to the next level and be a good solid corner in the NFL. Now, not without some roughness, and he's going to have to iron out some technique, but for me, he was the fifth corner. I like him, and I'll say this about this group in general. I could see if anybody had this reversed, and I wouldn't argue. And that's the beauty of consensus building in the NFL.

You might get another scout who gives you a total different perspective and a different list, And guess what? The truth is probably in the middle. It would be fun to do this exercise because I know Dane is the, Brueger is the athletics guru on draft evaluations. It would be fun to have a discussion with him and maybe another guy. And that would give people an inside view to a draft room because you have three different opinions, three different ideas.

And guess what? The truth is in the consensus. And it's not who's right or wrong. It's kind of where we settle in the middle. And that's the process by which. teams in the NFL stack their boards and really come up with the decisions that they do. That sounds like a fun project. Maybe we can get something like that going, if not this year, maybe next year. But I like that idea of talking through the different things. And that's

really, Randy, what I love about having this type of a conversation is, okay, Cam Smith, great. If I have one takeaway from this thing, which obviously I have more than that, but that's just the last year. And we were doing that all the way through these rankings last year. And it's great. Really great intel. And we'll be watching when, you know, when you're, he comes off the board in the draft, uh, right, that reference point.

But and, and what really, it kind of takes our, our rankings by one guy and kind of turns them upside down because in a draft room, I may love this guy late in the first round. Another scout may have a third round grade on him. That's not a big difference.

Trust me. It's, it's one letter or it's one number. Sure. And so guess what? He might end up being a second round pick at the end of the day for us. So these one offs by one scout is just one person's opinion. so don't forget that.

Yeah, you're not a lone person just doing your picks. That's not the way the real world in the NFL works. Well, we're going to talk about the real world and how it works in the NFL, Randy, as we continue and talk about the Arizona Cardinals. How about this? How about this, the Arizona Cardinals? Terry McDonough scout there for a front office person there since I think 2014, comes out with this complaint to the commissioner of the NFL,

alleging that the owner of the Arizona Cardinals, Michael Bidwell, had overseen a scheme whereby burner phones were handed out to the front office when their GM at the time in 2018, Steve Kyn was serving a DUI suspension for five weeks. Burner phone, Randy. This reminds me, I was thinking of, was, I don't know if you watched Breaking Bad or the Spinoff. The spinoff was better call Saul. Yeah. Remember, Saul had Saul Goodman.

That was a great name. Saul Goodman. Saul good. He had like a storefront with burner phones in there, you know, and they were being handed out and all that people were buying these burner phones. That's what I thought of. Before we get into this burner phones, huh? What do you think of that?

It sounds pretty. Yeah, I don't know. It sounds like it could be a TV series, to be honest with you. I'm not sure of the purpose or the agenda. I know you guys helped break the story. as did I guess ESPN as well. I'm not sure what the impetus behind this kind of information, what the purpose was for Terry doing this.

I've known Terry for a long time. I don't know. Again, if it's a vendetta against his former team, I don't know. Do things like this happen? I guess. I'm going to sound like some naive old guy, but I never was a part of anything quite as cloak and dagger as something like this. I guess back in the 90s, we were issued pagers so the owner could find us whenever he

wanted, and that can't carry the keys to something like this. So I don't know. I don't understand it. I'm trying to process it myself to figure out what the heck are we trying to do here. It feels perfect. I can't imagine. It is personal. That's what it feels like to me. It feels very personal. And maybe there's something we don't know that once we do it, it'll change the way we view it. Absolutely. And to me with the interesting tie-in to all this, Randy, number one, there's a lot of stuff that's been going on with the Cardinals. I mean, if you really look at the GM is out, you know, Steve Kime with the DUI stuff, their C-O, who people wouldn't even know whose name is, he had a DUI was suspended, he's gone from the team. They have this thing with McDonough. They had, remember

the weird thing in the Kyler-Murie contract about you got to do your homework, right? That's kind of showing up, steady-haw-clos. Yeah, showing up your quarterback. Yep. And the thing that really stood out to me about this. There's a couple. But one of them is, there's one that's big picture, but the little picture one is, as an owner, you're being accused of being retaliatory. And within an hour or two of this thing coming out, they put out the most retaliatory statement you could ever imagine. They really undressed Terry McDonough. And they attacked him as a person, as a husband, as a father, and bullet points in there. And they got this and that. They checked his emails. That was interesting to me. I wonder what

you'd be thinking if you worked there and saw it. Maybe you had, and let's just say, whatever your opinion was of Terry in the office, if you liked him, you didn't like him, maybe you think he's completely off base in doing this. But that's an unusual thing for a team to do to put out something like that an employee. I wonder what you thought of that. Yeah, I don't know that stooping to that level is ever a good idea for either side. But I guess, like we said, it's so personal that they just figured they had to. to defend themselves, I don't know.

I would think I would take the high road some way somehow. If indeed their denial is true, why even go into any details? Who cares at this point? What was said? Maybe they're trying to protect themselves against the league, launching an investigation, which is probably going to happen now. There will be some investigative. So I don't know who can be penalized for what.

I think it's kind of uncharted ground, to be honest with you. I don't even know how the league would view something like this. Maybe they penalize them. You know, the only thing they penalize teams for now is seems like his draft picks and money. So maybe there's some kind of a fine system or, you know, if they prove that this was the case, I don't know. I don't know what the purpose is. Well, you know, when I listed off those things about the GM and the COO and the quarterback contract and all that, the other thing I didn't mention was that their former coach, Steve Wilkes, is suing them.

And I think this is the interesting component of this because they sort of eviscerated Terry with what they put out. But Steve Wilkes was there and Steve Wilkes has a lot of credibility in the league as a corroborator. And what I was really struck by just having a couple conversations around the league about this yesterday was you now have two coaches right now that are suing the teams or the leagues for their treatment and being fired. One is Brian Flores for Miami. And the other one is now Steve Wilkes.

And if you look at the Miami situation, he was basically alleging unethical strategies by the owner there. Hey, they wanted me to tank and they wanted me to do this staged meeting bump into Tom Brady, right, and a tampering thing. And I wouldn't do it. And so they lost a first round pick for being, for tampering with Tom Brady. If Steve Wilkes now is alleging that there was a burner phone scheme and I was uncomfortable with it and, shoot fired after one year. It wasn't like they went and hired John Harbaugh or Nick Saban or somebody. They fired him to hire Cliff Kingsbury. I mean, Cliff Kingbury wasn't going to be hired as an offensive coordinator in the league at that stage. So that is... He had been hired at USC. He was at USC,

right, when they did hire. Yeah, yeah. So they really pivoted away from Wilkes. And if it can be shown, or if Wilkes testifies that something like this, there was unethical stuff going on there. then to me, that ties it together a little bit with the Miami one. You'd have these two coaches that were asked to do unethical things, possibly. And just Terry McDonough saying it, maybe that's not enough. But if Steve Wilkes corroborates it, I think it just becomes interesting and escalates for Arizona. Yeah, I think you're right. And I know Steve Wilkes.

I know what kind of person he is and would trust him as a brother with anything that he has or has done. I do think his resume and relationship history probably goes a long ways toward the public's belief of what he says maybe happened there. But I think you're right in that there's been a trail of events that have all taken place there that show a less than ideal leadership road, whether it's out in your quarterback with the study hall, clause, let's just face it, even if you did that, why would you ever want that out? Why would you ever let that out? You know, maybe there's no way to hide that, but just the idea of putting that in Kyler's contract, you had to know if it does become public, you're going to have to... Every agent's going to look at those contracts, right? When they come out, they get filed. Yeah. So the idea of it might have been, you know, smart in a room in the back room, but probably not realistic to think

you would ever do that. So there has been a trail of decisions that, you know, I guess we could all question, that's for sure. And this is just another one that may get ugly. I don't know at the end of it, if anything's really going to happen. I would think a burner phone and that plan that was hatched, if it's indeed true, would be easy to investigate and figure out. They admitted that it happened.

They just flipped it around and said that once the owner found out, he put a stop to it, which is a big difference. And one thing I wanted to ask you about that was, So Kime was suspended on the calendar from July 17th to August 21st. If you were the GM of a team in that part of the calendar, so that would take us, you know, at the start of training camp, a lot of training camp in the preseason, probably a lot of decisions to reduce the roster down from whatever 90, eventually to 53. You probably have some, you might have some draft pick contracts that are pretty easy to do.

I think they were doing a deal with David Johnson. You have some business. how disadvantageous would it be? And they had a first time first year head coach, by the way, too. How disadventiveous would that be as the GM to not be able to have contact or be in the building during that time? It'd be probably fatal in my mind because the process itself of reducing your roster and planning your season that takes place during training camp, I couldn't imagine doing that from outside the building and having no conversation with anybody. So that's probably why they devised the plan, to be honest with you.

And he, like you said, factor in the first year head coach who's never been in the NFL really as a coach ever. So he's uneducated in the process. No, that was Wilkes was the coach, though then. Oh, I thought you were talking about. So he would have been suspended July of 2018. So Wilkes was the head coach. Wilkes was the coach, but he was still a first time head coach. But you're trying to reduce the roster and all that.

And you're not, this is like you would have to be, you know, you're basically in a, in a cell somewhere. You can't even have any communication at all as a GM. It would be very difficult to do. It'd be impossible to do. And I think you'd have lingering effects even when you came back. I guess you would probably just have to turn it over. And maybe Terry was the guy.

You turn it over to them and stand back and watch because you can't be involved in that technically. And, you know, I don't know. It just, it was a, it was a mess, had to be a mess. And it sounds like there's been a lot of other decisions there that probably we all questioned, but it really looks bad when you put it all together as saying there's four or five things, six things now that have all. I mean, who drafts a quarterback and gets rid of them the next year? I mean, it's one thing after another. Not that Josh Rosen turned out to be a great player. I'm just saying there's been a lot of decisions that have made that have been questionable. And the results,

it's not my opinion. The results show themselves what it is. And this latest thing is going to just focus more attention on the owners, which I've always felt is a place that doesn't get that much focused because people don't really know what the owners do. They're not really accountable anybody. They're hard to get information on. People in the building aren't going to really talk about their owner, right? There's a fear factor. Anyone who deals with the owner during the course of a day in an NFL team does so with a little bit of, if not trepidation, certainly consideration for the fact that, hey, maybe I'm not going to speak as freely as I would to the guy that I work with on the road scouting with, right? I mean, it's a no, no. These are,

kind of all powerful people in their own little world. And that's frankly why they hire the coach in the GM to take the bullets. They're the face, the public face more than the owner for the most part. Yeah. A couple bullets are getting by the defenses here and going towards the owner. So I think that will be, like I said,

I think Wilkes is the whole key. I think he's a very credible person, even though he is not an unbiased person because he's obviously upset that he was fired. But he could be the key to me to what, to the credibility of what Terry McDonough is saying. Right. All right. Transitioning there from the Cardinal situation where there's a little bit of turmoil,

maybe a lot of turmoil in the front office. How about the New England Patriots, Randy? Remember at the league meetings, I wouldn't say that Robert Kraft put Bill Belichick on notice, but he kind of made some comments that were a little bit interesting. And Bill Belichick has made a lot of interesting comments regarding Mac Jones. wouldn't even commit to him publicly as a starter. I mean, it was an interesting thing.

And now we're hearing that maybe Mac Jones last year during a frustrating season went to the Alabama coaches. Obviously, he played at Alabama and asked for some advice. And word got back to Belichick, who wasn't happy. And now, who knows, maybe even Mac Jones could be available in the market. What do you think of all of this with Mac Jones? Well, I think I can see both sides of the fence. I would start with the defense of Mac Jones.

And, you know, I haven't been the biggest Mac Jones guy. I understand his physical limitations. But don't forget who he was partnered with to execute that offense last year. And I don't think that's his fault. I don't think that having a former special teams coach and a former defensive coordinator coupled together to cobble an offense that may or may not work with a second year quarterback, not one that's been around forever, is a formula for success. So I feel it. I feel Mac. I feel it. But at the same time, I can't imagine the coach putting the quarterback on notice publicly like this. I'm all for sending messages. I'm all for holding people accountable. But to me, if Mack Jones doesn't work out, guess whose fault that is? That'd be Bill Belichick in my mind, because he's the one that drafted him. He's the one that went to the owner and said, this is our guy. We're going to pick him 15th in the first round.

And guess what? There were, you know, it hasn't proved to be a really solid commitment yet. And maybe Mac hasn't earned it yet. But I guess I'm saying I can see Mack's point of view and maybe this year will be better. But gosh, I just, I'm surprised that Bill would go to this public based on the way he's operated the last 25 years. Well, he's never been one to send flowers. Like even the Tom Brady. No, he's never going to hug him up.

No, I agree. but he's never really publicly went after somebody in this fashion, though especially, I know, let's face it, he had 20 years of, he had a license to steal for 20 years with 12 as his quarterback, right? Yes. So that that covers a lot and does a lot of the work for anybody. But yeah, so you're right. So we haven't really, it's a great point. We haven't really seen Bill Belichick manage a quarterback competition or quarterback uncertainty. Tom Brady had earned so much credibility.

early on because they won championships. He was great in two minutes. And then, you know, blossomed into someone who was carrying it really was the reason they were able to be successful primarily. And now you're in the world of everybody else. Maybe a little bit of a preview for what some of these other teams are going to go through when they move on from really good quarterbacks, no matter how tired they are of them. Or if they select a quarterback mid-first round that might not be worthy of selecting. when they did. Yes. So I just feel like, you know, who am I to tell Bill Belichick for what he should say, but it seems like I get it. Some ownership of, hey, you know, we could have done a much better job of

setting things up for Mac last year. And I got to take some of the responsibility too. It feels like that would go a long way, unless there's utter concerns about Mack Jones and this thing about going to the Alabama staff, his tip of the iceberg, and there's a bunch of stuff going on that he doesn't, that he needs to push back on. That's possible. What do you think about that? What do you think about Matt going to the Alabama guys? I think he's probably just searching.

And it probably wasn't received well at Alabama because I think Bill's best buddies with Nick. So I can't imagine that Mac wouldn't, shouldn't have known that it was going to get back to Bill at some point in some fashion. So probably not a very smart move. I might have gone somewhere else for advice. maybe Steve Sarkesian or somebody who is Lane Kiffin or somebody who he grew up under.

But to go back to the source and go back to Daddy, I mean, eventually I would think Bill's going to know about it. So it might have to, it might be an error in judgment on Max's point of trying to get help. That's for sure. So as somebody who had a second round grade on Bailey Zappy and doesn't really think he, you don't, you think Bailey Zappy could be as good as Mac Jones, right?

Similar or could he be even better? I think they're very similar in skill set. I think they're, you know, Bailey's appie might be a little more athletic than Mac Jones, you know, but hey, a lot of people like Mac Jones, and I'm not against him. I just haven't seen the progression, but I can understand the, and it's not excuses, just the people that has surrounded Mac Jones. So I don't think Bailey would have done any better last year. They tried him for three weeks, right?

And it was about the same. It is an interesting time, though, if this relationship is fractured by the going behind the back and all of that. And we may be, I may be exaggerating it here a little bit, but just for the purpose of the conversation, if they have, if they are not confident in Mac Jones, uh, doing very well, is it a decent time to trade them if you like Bailey Zappi?

You could. I think the, the body of work is an ideal to be trading a guy. You might be, but another team, telling low, would another team go off their draft eval grade if they liked them instead? Instead of and just throw aside that season.

I think they would to a point. I don't think anybody's going to give you a top 15 pick for him. No. So I don't know what that. There's, you know, depreciation on that. Yeah,

there's, it's like a new car. Once you drive it off the lot, you're going to lose money for the most part. I think that's what happened with Mac Jones. He drove off the lot and, oops, there went five grand off the sticker price right there,

you know? Yeah, yeah. And then he's been, he was fine his first year, bad second year, not all his fault, but still a lot of questions about where

the ceiling. is for him, right? Or maybe there's not questions. Maybe we just think he's going to be okay. Maybe. Again, I think I'd like to see him with a seasoned, proven, successful offense and coordinator leading him. And it looks like Bill O'Brien has, you know, taken the reins there. So we'll see how it works out. He's got that. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Just a little interesting situation in New England. One that you never, yeah, one that's never come out in New England in the last 25 years. years, that's for sure. Yeah, all this quarterback drama, never in New England until the last couple of years. So we'll see how it goes for them. I think it has to be a better year

offensively just because it couldn't have been managed any worse last season. So I would think Mac Jones, if he's a starter, will look a little bit more like he did in his rookie year, a little bit more promising. And I think they're a decent enough team probably defensively, if they can get their special teams somewhat back to normal where they could be at least competitive in the mix, but probably not. Probably not. not in that championship window they were in 11-12s there. You got anything else, Randy? No, I think that's enough for this time.

I'm looking forward to breaking down some of the offensive players next week in our show, offensive draft guys, like maybe some receivers and some running backs, some of the skill position guys. We'll see where that takes us next week, but that's always a fun task as well. Oh, love it. Yeah. Love it. You know, I was reading something today about how many wide receivers have been taken early in the last few years. It's a lot.

A lot of those guys are going early. So be fun to talk about those and see how many of them. Have you done the work yet? Or are you going to start looking? I have seen several right now. And I'll be honest with you, I'm really excited about some of the guys I've seen. There's some guys that can fly.

And you know how I am. I want to see fast guys. I love the speed aspect of it. There's a couple guys that jumped out at me big time in that I think there's some game breaking receivers, return guys that will be exciting to watch on Sundays. Great. Can't wait to talk about them. everybody you can find Randy in the meantime at muellerfootball.com.

You can find them on Twitter at Randy Mueller underscore. I'm Mike Sando for The Athletic at Sando NFL. We'll talk to you next time with some of those skill position players on offense in Randy's crosshairs. This was the Athletic Football Show.