The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Football GM: Changes looming in Pittsburgh, a rough week hits Buffalo, and a look at the ownership level

Episode Date: December 9, 2023

Mike and Randy take a look at a few things around the league starting with what needs to change in Pittsburgh......some of the things going on and off the field in Buffalo......and thoughts on the ownership level in the NFL. Lastly the guys get into the GM notebook and their Week 14 predictions.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

the athletic football shows, Football GM podcast. Welcome everybody to the Football GM podcast. Mike Sando here along with the GM, Randy Mueller. Good morning, Randy. Good afternoon to everybody else. Good evening whenever you're listening. How you doing? I'm doing awesome.

Always good to be on the show every week. I get fired up. It seems like the further we get into these playoff scenario type things, it gets me fired up. So I'm ready to go for sure. And of course, the big news everyone's talking about. The Heisman trophy. I'm just kidding.

It's not what it used to be, is it? You know, it's sad. Yeah, it's not. It's kind of evolved into a side show, really, of propaganda. And, you know, colleges now start these Heisman runs for their players sometimes a year early. I mean, and we know what social media can do. And yeah, it's a popularity contest. But you're right, it's not what it used to be.

I did want to ask you, though, is Jaden Daniels is a prohibitive favorite to win it. and Michael Pennix is second at the University of Washington, which is near where we live. So I've watched Washington more than a lot of the other teams. I'm just curious about him. We talked about Jaden Daniels last week, or maybe it was a week before, and you had him right behind Caleb Williams

among the quarterbacks coming out in the draft. What about Pennix? How do you see him as a pro before we get to all the NFL stuff going on? I was just curious. Well, I think Pennix has had, obviously, a long career. People that listen to the podcast probably, know he started at Indiana. And the thing that concerns me most about him, well, there's two things.

One is he's been injured a lot. And that factors into NFL evaluations. You're talking about two ACLs, a clavicle, a couple of other things. I think four of his six seasons have been cut short by injury. So that's definitely an issue. I think he's a good player. I don't put him in the category of those top three guys that we talked about. And that's the North Carolina kid, Jaden.

and Caleb, a little longer delivery, which is really hard to sort out for evaluators. I'll be the first to admit, the left-handed quarterback is a bit of a mystery, even for those of us that have done it 24-7 for 40 years. You'll know the answer to this, and I'll just throw this out there. I saw on social media a couple weeks ago, somebody had reversed the video. I'm assuming this is somebody can do this. They reversed the video and made him into a right-hand. passer. Outstanding. And so every, every throw he made, it made you think, gosh, this guy's right-handed.

And I'm going to be honest, I thought he was better. I thought the ball came out a little better. I thought it came out clean. It wasn't such a long. So is there an awkwardness that comes with evaluating the left-handed quarterback? I don't know. I ask a couple people that I trust. And they said the same thing. They said, yeah, I never, these are NFL people that have been around forever. I struggle with left-handed releases and deliveries, and it's just because it's a little bit awkward for our mind. So it tells me it's more of our brain than anything else. When you saw it, if you'd have seen this video, Mike, of him as a right-hander, you'd say, oh, gosh, this is outstanding. You know, so it really threw me for a loop.

My youngest son was a left-handed high school quarterback. I should have got that technology. He'd probably be a big prospect. Oh, my gosh, this right-handed quarterback. You might not be doing the show. You might have your own show, yeah. But it's funny you say that on left-handers, because we're going to, we're going to, we're got a lot of way, we're going to get into the meat of the show, but that, that sends me back.

I believe, so I was covering the CX when they drafted Brock Heward out of University of Washington. It was a left-handed throw-off. I drafted him. I was there. Yeah. Yeah. So I can't remember. That was sort of during that period. Was that 98? 99? It was when Homegren came. So it was home came in. So yeah. So I never really knew if who was behind that, if it was whole, whatever. But yeah, that eval probably you had to take a left-hander then too. Yep. It's an interesting thing. and it really tests your mind and your brain and everything. So to answer your question, I think Pennix for me, when you consider all of the above, including the medical stuff,

you're probably looking at a second or third round guy, to be honest. Okay. I think a lot of people thought of him as a first rounder, and I'm not sure I didn't either. But after you really dig in deeper, and again, the NFL teams are going to go way deeper than even you and I talk about, I think you're probably looking at a second level type player.

Okay. Probably the same with Nick. to be honest with you. The Oregon guy gets a lot of, there's a similar path of a career there. When he was at Auburn, and I'm talking about Bo Nicks, the Oregon quarterback, who's one of the finalists at the Heisman Award as well, he wasn't highly thought of at Auburn in all. In fact, he kind of failed at Auburn before he transferred and had kind of been benched and looked over. And obviously the system at Oregon has a lot to do with all of these quarterbacks, but him in particular. And he's had a really good year. But I don't know,

I happen to see him in the same game and the same time as Caleb Williams. And for me, there wasn't really anything to talk about. I like Bo Nix, but I think he's probably in the same Pennix bucket as second, third, you know, maybe even a fourth round pick type guy. All right. So we put that to bed, the Heisman trophy. But mostly I'm interested in that, the type of evaluation off of the players. Usually we lead in and talk about the Thursday night game, man, Patriots over,

Patriots over Steelers. I actually left and went to the gym during the second half that. I was watching it on my phone, but it was like, I don't know. I don't have a ton to say off of that other than it was kind of sad. Yeah, I would agree with you. I'm kind of always been a stickler for high level perfection, for execution. The NFL is the best in the world. And when I see less than that, it kind of, it just taints the product for me. these teams are obviously good NFL, you know, caliber players for the most part. But it just didn't happen for me either. I hate disparaging teams because it's hard to win a game. But I thought Pittsburgh way underachieved, in my opinion, and this is the only thing I'll say about the game.

Pittsburgh has way better players than New England for the most part, way better. And they played terrible. I don't know whether it's Mitch Trubisky got to go or all of the above. I'm like you. It didn't interest me. The level of perfection was lacking. just too many mistakes and too much. I think you can say it's sloppy.

Maybe New England out-coached Pittsburgh in this particular instance, but for the most part, I just don't think I see how high skill level with, maybe it's just the skilled players, and that's what bothered me. So here's what the interesting takeaway to me is much bigger picture for the Steelers, because every year under Mike Tomlin, they find a way to be nine and eight, and they don't really have to ask the hard questions, right? They've been able to run it back with Matt Canada or do whatever because in the end, they went to the playoffs or they were 9 and 8. They've never had to have a reckoning in Pittsburgh, even with some real years of some dissatisfaction throughout the year.

Fans upset, fire Tom on trends every season, right, at some point. And then he writes the ship because he's a great coach and leader. I think we would all acknowledge that. I mean, shoot, if he was available, he'd be hired in five seconds. And if my team hired him, I would be thrilled. I think Tomlin is a gold standard. I agree. But that record has allowed them to not have to look in the mirror as hard.

And so I wonder if this, if you were a Steeler fan, would you almost wish they would lose out right now? If you were a Steeler fan who thought, look, I want to see some real changes and accountability around here. Not necessarily that Mike Tomlin's fired. I think that would be ridiculous for me. Right. I agree.

But if they were, he's not getting fired. No. And he shouldn't to me. He's too good. But like, if they were to lose out, would that almost be a better thing for them to have to address it? Or with Kenny Pickett out, it all sort of gets muddied and nothing would really change anyway. And what needs to change? Anything for you?

Well, I think you've set the table for Tomlin, and I totally agree. But I kind of feel the same way about Pickett. I don't think you'd give up on Pickett at all. I don't think Pickett could go away. He had nothing to do with last night. No, I agree. I think he's an NFL quarterback. So when you say lose out, what does that mean?

What are we going to get from that? I think in this case, the hard decisions have already been made. We know we're going to take a different course on offense. We know that has to be brought into 2003. That has to be a tired group of much like the Jets, just tired of being beat down. And it's worked. We've given it plenty of time. So Tomlin has to, I think, make a play for a different course that fits Pickett's skill set.

And I think he'll do that. Defensively, I'm not sure that the same thing isn't due as well. It's a struggle sometimes. Everybody says they have a great defense. I get it. New England kind of chewed them up a little bit last night. Maybe Mika Fitzpatrick isn't as healthy as he would like to be. I get it.

I think they have the makings of some individual players that are obviously. really good on their defense, but I'm not so sure that Pittsburgh can do what you said and just sweep it under the rug and not make changes or ask hard questions. I think they really have to ask hard questions, some of which are we playing the right people and putting them in the right position so they can succeed? And sometimes that's hard for coaching staffs. Yeah, defensively to me, they went seven straight games, not allowing 20 points. That hadn't been done in 20 years for them. That was against Baltimore. That was against, you know, the Rams. That was against the Jaguars, the Packers, some teams that have played some decent balls. So I feel like defensively, yes, last

night was not exactly, although shoot, the offense lost the game last night. I mean, I don't have, to me, defensively, I don't feel like they need a big shakeup, but I feel like, in fact, I think the defense would take a huge nutter jump if the offense were just halfway competent. I think that's a good point, and I agree with that. I do. But I think this is also a test of leadership as well. And Mike's never really been one to accept change. I mean, you saw, we all saw how long it took to make the Canada decision, Canada decision. And he's going to have similar things to do with maybe some of the rest of the staff. I don't know. They're going to have to look at some players on offense too. There's a lot of heads down. There's a lot of people grumbling. You can tell that.

Are these guys going to be part of the solution or are they part of the problem? So a lot of tough questions. All right. So there's some tough questions in Buffalo, too. that can be solved pretty quickly in the short term if they beat the chiefs this week. We're going to talk about that game as we get into our picks and some other stuff. What an amazing matchup. But this Sean McDermott story by Tyler Dunn. I'm sure you saw that one.

It was making all the news yesterday. And it's a three-part series, 20,000 words long. Tyler Dunn's a longtime reporter who covers the NFL. There's a lot of in-depth stuff. He's got his own site there that I, subscribe to you because there's pieces like this. But we have talked about Sean McDermott being too uptight, about his team playing tight as a result,

about McDermott scapegoating the offense, not taking responsibility for what's really wrong with the team. But now we've got 20,000 words of details, really bringing this to life and proving it. And painting McDermott as sort of these things and a lot more. You know, out of touch with the team was a theme of it, cringy analogies, the idea that he would invoke the terrorists who pulled off 9-11 as an example of a team coming together to pull off something improbable, obviously beyond tone death.

And this is years ago, 2019. But there were a lot of stories from, I think, conversations with 25 people who work with the bills now, used to work with the bills. and so obviously big picture Randy they've had a lot of success under McDermott he's been a big part of them turning this thing around he has a very good record but I just came away from this wondering I felt this was damaging in a way and I also feel like he's obviously got a lot of enemies just made me wonder where this is going to go I would concur with that I think the biggest thing for me and I haven't read all 20,000 words I've read some of it and I agree with you it kind of feels like maybe the beginning of the end now like you said if they can find a way to rally the troops but this is also I think it can be viewed as I told

you so because there's been a lot of individual instances throughout the time there especially the last couple years where I know you and I have felt like this he hasn't taken any accountability at all for any of it I still don't think he's taken accountable for the 13 seconds that happened two years ago that I don't think they've recovered from. So I look at this, much like I would look at a quarterback. The best quarterbacks I've ever been around, Mike, are the ones that say, my bad. I played bad. I screwed up. I get it. I shouldn't have done that. Even in his kind of apology that I heard yesterday with McDermott, it was, well, I hope this wasn't construed. I didn't really mean this. If people misinterpreted it.

Yeah. Sorry if you misinterpreted it. No, no, no, no. No, no. Are you kidding me? You're an idiot. You can't say these kind of things. How about just say that and be honest and be humble and just say, hey, I screwed up. This is not only tone deaf.

It reflects bad on every part of our organization. And I apologize for it. It was a giant mistake for me. He never said anything like that. And that was really concerning for me. That tells me that nothing is ever going to be his fault. There's no way he can put that blame on anybody's interpretation or anything. and he refused, in my opinion, from what I've seen, he refused to take accountability and just say my bad.

And my parallel with these quarterbacks are, it's the same thing. The quarterback has to be the most honest person. I was around Philip Rivers for 10 years. I was around Dave Craig for 10 years in Seattle. I've been around some quarterbacks who I consider to be really good people and those that say, hey, I screwed up. Those are the kind of people I want to be around. And if our leader will never take the time to say, my bad, I screwed this up, I think we've got problems. So I think this is, like you said, damning in that it's taken a bunch of singular references and put them all together in these 20,000 words and giving us a package of what McDermott is.

Which is not to me a leader. And I think this is a crossroad season, Randy. and his record, in normal circumstances to me, his record and the success of the team buys him a ton of rope, okay? The problem I have is Leslie Frazier's been pushed out, Ken Dorsey's been fired, and we've been talking about this, it's all on him. And if all of these other things are really a symbol that he has lost the building or never had it to the degree that he thought,

that's probably going to play out on the field as we go along. But even if they finish 9 and 8, 8 and 9, if you were the GM of that team or the president of that team or the owner of that team, don't you have to be looking really big picture? And not about whether or not it's fair or somebody deserves to still come back. That's not our goal. Our goal here is what's fair to the organization? What's best for the organization going forward? How much of a long-term bet can you make on Sean McDermott right now, not based on, hey, he's had a lot of success? You've got to really evaluate, is this the leadership we need for this team and for Josh Allen and for this whole organization as we try to win it all?

Isn't that the question we're asking going forward? And doesn't that make you reconsider the stance that I don't think he'll lose his job now? I mean, what are we evaluating? Yep, I couldn't agree more. I think all those steps, I would say, all the points you made, I would say what you said. I agree with you because it's not about, well, if we could find one more perimeter receiver or one more inside linebacker. It's not about that.

It is the course and direction of the man in charge and as much as anything, his style. And I think because he's always been a little bit of a rough around the edges. listeners shouldn't forget. This is the same guy that Andy Reid's fired in Philly and sent him to Ron Rivera. There's been this kind of, you know, cloud following him wherever he's been about the lack of humility and the lack of taking, you know, accountability for things that happen. But yet you couple that with this anal set of demands from everybody else. And that's why I think people come out of the woodwork and say, wait a second. And that's probably why you get 20 people in and around the bill saying what they said. That's, you know, that's, that's more than a trend. And to me, these revelations provide the cover,

if any cover is needed for that type of conversation to be had to make a change. I think it's out there. This stuff's out there. And there's 20,000 words of it that's going to have to be dealt with for a long time. and forever. Because I don't think Sean McDermott's going to prove it wrong by suddenly being a dynamic leader who's a selfish leader, a servant leader, right?

The types of things you really look for in somebody to lead a team. Is he suddenly going to prove to be something that he hasn't been? And all of these things that are written about, like we said, we've sensed them, we've talked about them.

I mean, I wrote a month ago more than they need something at the trade deadline, they need to find out if their coach has another gear, this tightness that they play with is palpable. And they can't do that. They just can't be on the edge the whole time. I just don't know how he can sell a vision of the future right now.

You're going to bring in new coordinators at this point? I think this is damaging. I just think this is really damaging. I think it's really damaging when you kind of forecast how the rest of this season is going to go. And let's just say you're right and they come around 500 or maybe a game. of above or a game below, as the direction for this franchise, you have given him ample rope to get this right. The 13 second game was two years ago, and where have we come since then? Well, we lost again. Now we don't even have a playoff team or we skated in at the edge

on the last Sunday of the week. I don't know if he's righted the ship since then. So it's easy to say, yeah, we need this or we need that from a players and from a team-building standpoint, but I agree with you. I think the course at the top needs to be altered. When you have a bunch of haters that come from within, that's problematic because as you know, they're going to pounce on you as soon as things go bad. And it looks to me like that's kind of what's happened here. They've pounced.

And not only is this, you know, Tyler Dunn, the author of this column, but it's all the people that came out of the woodwork for this. And you can say piling on, but there's a reason that when you treat people a certain way for a long period of time, eventually, if you don't win, they're going to come back to you. That shoe goes on the other foot real quick. Yes. When it's slipping away, instead of people rushing to prop you up, they might trample over you, right? Well, the non-apology for the references that he made may have pushed me over the edge,

not that anybody cares about how I feel, may have pushed me over the edge. We all do, Randy. That's why you're on the podcast. We care. I'm just saying, that to me, as a. a GM or an ownership group. If in its entirety, his apology was really a non-apology like the part that I heard, I find that hard to recover from, to be honest with you. That is a total lack of awareness and being tone deaf to the rest of the people in your own building. And I just can't wait to see if they rally.

I've felt like, you know, the Chiefs are vulnerable enough. We'll talk about this game that, hey, this is a great opportunity for Buffalo. But it also could be the game where all this just goes. falls flat and blows up in Buffalo's face. There's a lot because you talk about the Vaughn Miller accusations. You talk about all the other things that have transpired in Buffalo. They have some positive because they're coming off a by that we both said they needed for a long time. So they should be fresher.

They should be a little lighter on their feet, which I think really physically is what they needed as a football team. But now they've been now burdened with these other distractions that's created by the head coach. and he's not sure whose fault it is. So there you go. I wonder if there's a, you know, it was just the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. I wonder if there's some kind of speech that could be given off of that

before the game to get the guys going after the 9-11 one. Probably should steer clear that, don't you think. Yeah, I was going to say he might want to steer clear of anything controversial, but he may not even understand that it was controversial. He just thinks everybody interpreted it wrong one. Yeah, hey, sorry if you misunderstood my completely

inappropriate analogy. Hey, if anybody misunderstood that completely unforgivable joke, I just told. I mean, come on. All right. So it is sort of that time of year, though, you know, Randy. Buffalo, we've seen, you know, the athletic had a big deep dive on the infighting and problems in Carolina. There's been a couple of them written about Washington now and some of the discontent with what's gone on there. and Eric Biena means addition to the staff.

And I think there's some common themes here that are interesting to talk about, not just when the ship starts to sink at the end of the year, because lots of teams have issues down the stretch, and it doesn't go their way. And maybe there's even going to be a firing, but it doesn't always dissolve into these types of stories of infighting. And in McDermott's case, he's really the last guy standing, like we talked about, the coordinators are gone.

And so obviously he's made some enemies along the way. but these similarly kind of sourced stories about the staff infighting in Carolina, the Bianemy stuff, even throw, and I would throw into the same bucket a couple weeks ago, the Jay Glazer report that Wink Martindale and Brian Dayball can't stand each other, you know, and there's been, I talk to people familiar with that situation and shoot, all three coordinators could change for the Giants. I see some themes here. one of the things that connects this to me is in Carolina,

David Tepper insisted on the All-Star coaching staff. And I know other guys who've interviewed there, who said that was a big deal to him too, that they wanted, Tepper really wanted, hey, we need some bigger names around here. And so when Frank Reich puts together his staff

and as Jim Caldwell and Josh McCown and Thomas Brown and all these guys who may in their own right, Dom Capers. Dom Capers, yeah. They all may be excellent, excellent teachers and coaches in their own right. But as you know, building a team, Randy, isn't just putting a bunch of all-stars together.

You fit the personalities and all of that. In Bienemy, in Washington, Bienemy may be a great coach, but he's not a Rivera guy, right? He's added into the mix, and so there's not the same necessarily loyalty or connection. Feathers get ruffled. We thought they needed to be ruffled there. But same thing with the Giants.

A year ago, oh, what a great job Brian Dayball's done. He didn't just hire his friends on the staff. He got a bunch. He went for the best guys. Well, guess what? There's not the cohesion. The first sign of trouble, these guys are at each other's throats, it sounds like. What do you make of that as a common threat or just this in general?

Yeah, I totally agree that the staffs are much like teams, and it is all about team building, and you do not know what you have until you hit a rocky strip. There's no doubt about that. And these coaches have egos. They have, as we've talked about for the first 20 minutes of the podcast, they have egos, they have accountability issues sometimes. I do think that they're different cases. I think in Washington, there seem to be less faith that Ron would get it right.

So we're going to go hire somebody kind of on our own that we may think is the best fit, even though it might not be the best fit for Ron and his style. So I don't know who's to blame for that. I do think the TEPR hiring of an all-star staff really is just another indication for me that this guy doesn't get it and that it's really hard to build teams on paper, build staffs on paper. It's not about throwing together an all-star crew that nobody knows. I think you're exactly right. If you can walk into a room with some familiarity and you sit down around a table, you're going to have a learning curve that is way short. and less risky than a staff that may be more talented, may have higher football IQ, but walks into

the next room and sits around the table because the unknown. You just don't know how people are going to react. So when you build a team, you've got to keep that in mind. You don't want to take a lesser player or a lesser coach per se and use that as their criteria all the time just because he happens to have familiarity. But you've got to consider what's going to happen as the decision maker, what's going to happen when things go good and what's going to happen when things go bad? I always use this, Mike, as a, this is exactly the first question I would ask on evaluating a quarterback for my years in the league when I would get around anybody who's been around this particular quarterback, when I would go into a school, a coach or

whatever, I would say, how is he when shit goes bad? That's what I want to know. That's my first question about any leadership of anybody is how is he when the shit goes bad? And some say, well, you know, that's it. I've heard enough. That's good. Some, he's outstanding. He will point the finger at himself. He will continue to, uh, bring people together and not tear people apart. He won't assign blame. That kind of stuff. And so I think that's the question these owners have to ask when they hire GMs and especially when they hire coaches. And then when they hire staffs and quarterbacks. How are, because guess what, Mike? Shit's going to go bad. It is. It is. The teams everywhere. There's 31 other teams that are getting paid and are just as good as you per se on paper. So you have to be ready for these things and you have to look down the pike ahead of time to kind of sort out what might happen and forecast it. And sometimes when you build teams on paper with probability charts and some of this other garbage that I see coming to the table that you hire a GM who's going to sit in a room and pick players instead of having people skills and the ability to bring people together, those you're going to get bad results. That's just the way it is.

be like putting together your front office and saying, hey, we got Ron Wolf and Bill Pullian. Hey, great. You think that's going to be going to work great. That's going to be a cohesive unit with those two guys. Yeah. You know, I mean, look, each one of them is an alpha leader of the team, right? And so things have to fall into order and it becomes then even more important that top head coach that is a true special leader, right? Because it could be managed. This stuff could be managed potentially, but it would take a real special leader to do it.

and the respect factor that has to be there as well. You talk about Dayball and Wink. There has to be a respect factor and we have to be able to set egos aside. Otherwise, that is not going to work. And it sounds like we've kind of come to that conclusion on our own from the outside as we look in that there may not be the same respect factor. I would have anticipated that a little bit in that, and I don't know Wink Martindale, don't know him at all, but seems like the kind of guy that might feel like he's been slighted for some of these head coaching jobs for a long time. Dayball, a younger, more ascending person who kind of came upon being a head coach probably sooner and people might not necessarily think that he's deserving of that. So you have to anticipate these dynamics when you

put staffs together. That's all I'm saying. Right. Somebody, I'm not, look, I haven't talked to wink about this either, but he may be saying, oh yeah, you won the Josh Allen lottery. Good, good job for you. You got the head coaching job. Hey, I've been grinding for X number of years. Those types of things could come into it. I don't know. Right. We don't know if it did in this case, but there's a lot of that stuff. Yeah, I have no clue. There's a lot of that type of stuff that is just natural human nature, right? Correct. Correct. Yeah. You cannot make these evaluations in a bubble because this makes sense on some chart. That's what I'm saying. And I'm not a good analytics or probability or anything like that. I get it. But these are grown men in both building your team as players and staffs and front offices that have to be

blended. So that's why I always start with when these GMs get hired, they better have some people skills because you've got to manage people. That's the number one job. But that's the case, I think, in any industry. I feel like I have the confidence to go into almost any industry and give me six months to learn the people. And it could be successful, even though I know very little about building airplanes. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I think the people that are involved as leaders have to be considered rather than some guys has been a scout on the road for 10 years and that team has drafted a bunch of hot players. Now we're going to make him in charge.

Well, there's going to be a learning curve regardless. And guess what? The NFL doesn't really allow for learning curve and on-the-job training. And that can be factored into every hire that's made. Well, when you're named the next CEO of Boeing, I will not cancel my flights because I know you'll be able to bring the people together there. Hopefully I can get some stock options out of that or something. I don't know. I'm ranting. I apologize.

No, it's great. It's great. It's dumb stuff that makes you shake your head. No, but it's really interesting. Leaders or leaders. This stuff's really interesting to talk about, especially at the ownership level to me, because I have felt like the owners are not easily understood or accountable. Obviously, they own the team.

And that's going to transition into the next thing I want to talk about, which is related to all this Tepper stuff. This week, and I wrote a column about it today, it was a sort of initial jumping off point. But this week I decided, you know, dang it, I'm going to go through the whole league and I'm going to look at when every owner became an owner and I'm going to put down their one lost records

because I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head the dynamics of every ownership group when this guy actually took over, that guy took over. Even this morning, I was thinking, you know, Rob Walton was seemed like the owner of the Broncos. It's Greg Penner is the guy. And actually in October, Randy, they formally designated him as the principal guy.

Well, that just goes under the radar. No one's talking about the owners to me enough. And so I thought this is just sort of an initial accounting to find out, you know, things like, you know, I realized in doing this, Randy, Stephen Ross in Miami, who I have felt is all over the place, has a better record than John Mara with the Giants. I would have never guessed that. Now, John Mara's got two Super Bowls, but as well, we get more distance from those Super Bowls

and we realize the role that Tom Coughlin and sort of a playoff red hot Eli Manning played in that, what do we got with the Giants? Right? Right. But yet the Mara name goes back to Wellington Hall of Famer. We just have a certain image of what it is. For me, this was

a helpful exercise to kind of go through and say, well, wait a minute. This guy, this, this guy, that. Another thing I noticed was that among the last half dozen or so, owners who bought into the league, not inherited, only the Pagullas have done anything. These other ones, now Washington, Denver's too early.

Let's put them to the side. But Carolina, Cleveland, Jacksonville, where the editor buyers in, shoot, they're among the worst franchises in the league. Those are helpful nuggets for me as we sort of contextualize, evaluate, analyze these guys. I was just curious what you think. I pasted into our little show prep here, what the records were, and people can find the story on the athletic.

but I don't know. To me, this is just kind of the stuff that helps me percolated my mind for the next month now and think about different things. And we've done some ownership stuff too about the different styles of it. I don't know. What do you got?

Any takeaways? No, I think it's a valuable tool for evaluating long-term effect of leadership for sure. And all of them have different styles. The first thing, kind of tongue-in-cheek that jumped out at me, was that Jimmy Haslam and David Tepper are, I think, 29th and 30th on your list and both came from the Rooney tree. So I'm giving the Rooney family credit for maybe they knew these guys would be a nightmare.

And that's why they pushed them off. And that's why they offloaded them. Because I've heard some stories about Tepper around the Steelers office as well back in today that this is not a, it's not a surprise what we're seeing now in Carolina. I know. So I'll give Rooney's credit. My joke off of that was that the Steelers producing Haslam and Tepper would be like Tony Dungey's tree producing Rex Ryan's, you know, guys like that.

They're totally unlike Tony in any way, temperament, style of play, any of that. You would just never think that you would think, hey, let's get a guy who's been with the Steelers. I mean, they're the Stablest organization. And then you get Haslam and Tepper who are all over the place. You couldn't be more all over the place, could you? No, I totally agree. That's why I'm giving the Rooney family credit for offloading a couple that haven't exactly worked out. But then again, the Steelers have struggled a little bit the last few years.

So I'm sure some of this is cyclical without a doubt. But I do think it serves a great purpose in that these owners, just because they have a lot of money, doesn't mean they're going to be successful. And their style and the people that they hire to run their operation. And for the most part, ask the right questions then of them, I think is the key. That is the key, if anything. Does anybody think Gail Benson is a great football mind? I mean, no, no, yeah.

But they have hired the right people and let them run the team and have really been a non-factor in other than I'm going to support every way I can financially. And I'm going to hire people to ask the right questions if I don't know that. That's the difference I see is Steve Biscotti to me, a very astute person in my mind. He asks the right questions of his GM, of his coach, my opinion, that makes them all better. Same with Robert Kraft. He asks the right question. No, Bill, we're not going to do that.

We're going to, you know, keep Tom Brady. We're not going to move on him and keep Jimmy Gropolo, those kind of things. So I think the questions that get asked and the IQ of, from a football standpoint, that gets asked by the asker are what's most important for me when sizing up these ownership groups. Absolutely. I don't think, I don't, I think almost none of them have a football. have great football knowledge, right? Almost none of them. There's no, there's no Al Davis.

You'd probably go down to, yeah, to Jim Ursay, who I think fashions himself as as a football aficionado because he grew up in it. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure some of them do, but for the most part, that's not, Jerry Jones obviously would. I mean, he's a different one. I mean, he obviously played the game and has come up.

But even his, you know, he would probably be better off realizing what he doesn't know as much sometimes too. Oh, there's no question. You could do a whole podcast on that dynamic of owning that team. And really, if Jerry would rather lose doing it his way or win taking a back seat. And I think we know the answer to that.

No, absolutely. And the other thing was, to me, anyone who's done it for a long time and is well above 500 is impressive to me. Yes. Because I do feel like, if for most people, if they got to be an owner of a team for a thousand years, they'd probably be 500 at the end of it. Just through the ebbs and flows with this. And you look at, I think,

look at Virginia McCasky, for example. She's the longest tenure. She's got over 600 games. And she's four games over 500. And you can even see Robert Kraft is way above 500, but we can see like he had an amazing run with these guys. And I'm sure if he got to own the team in the other hundred years, he probably wouldn't be terrible at it.

But we can see that coming back to Earth a little bit, right? If he owns it another 10, this might be closer to 500. That's why Steve Vashadhi is kind of interesting to me because they haven't had, I mean, Lamar Jackson's a good quarterback. They've had, Joe Flacco was a good quarterback at different times, but they haven't had the Peyton Manning type guy who just wins a lot of the games for you, you know? And they have had a formula for winning. Bashati's 60 games over 500,

and his first head coaching decision was to hire John Harbaugh, who had never been a coordinator, At any level, offense defense, never been an offensive defense coordinator in high school that I know of, college, pro. That's not the normal formula, Randy, to find a leader of your team. And he hired somebody like that who's been, who's got one of the best records in the league since he's been there. I think that's impressive.

John was a special teams coordinator. And sometimes you do look at those guys. Yeah, sometimes you look at those special teams guys a little different because other than the head coach, the next person in line that speaks to the team most often, is the special teams coach. He speaks to everybody all the time. So I see it, but yes, you're right. The other thing that gets left out in Bishadhi is, and I'm not sure that he's not the shining light in this top 10 group. And I think he's, what, fourth on your list. His sidekick during this whole time, Ozzie Newsom. Ozzie Newsom's Hall of Fame administrator and player. So that that's one for me

that I would think Ozzy was a co-heart of mine for years, but might be a mentor in the same fashion. You know, that's how strongly I feel about him. I thought we saw some signs of that their team starting to crack a little bit as Ozzy's retired. He's around, but he's not as involved. And I kind of thought, you know, there was a little bit of a dip there for a minute where they weren't as good on defense and stuff, but it feels like they've righted it a little bit.

And we've been, you know, kind of hopeful for some of the changes they've made on the offense, you know, to take that step. So, you know, maybe they are going to ride this thing out there. Obviously, have a good record this year. It's been, you know, maybe in the sort of post-Aazi era, I know he's around, but maybe it's not going to fall off as much as we feared it might at one point. What do you think? I totally agree.

I think they're a little bit taking advantage of the no quarterback in Cleveland, no quarterback in Sincerey disarray in Pittsburgh this year. Yeah. I don't think their drafts. I think their draft and the narrative that the media paints on. them always gives them a pass no matter what and I haven't really been sold on the fact that they've added a lot of talent but this year's a little different they did finally and I think they made the statement when the season started this year and Eric Acosta even said I have not done

a good job at doing my job the last couple years and he was referring to putting people around them are so I think that admission alone kind of moved them up in my book that hey Eric gets it He's got to do better and they've done better. So I agree with you. But I think they might be the shining light on this whole group, especially when you consider Kraft and Belichick and where they are since Brady left. So, yeah, it's just a note on this. One quick note, I think Mickey Loomis in New Orleans is going to pass a milestone here soon,

if he hasn't already, to be like the all-time winning this GM in the history of the league. I mean, he's been there. He's the longest tenured. And it may not be in the history of the league, but it's, it's a, they've won a lot of games there. Because let's face it, Mickey was my right hand man, replaced me in 2002. So he's been there 20 years. And he's fixing to, to surpass some really big milestones coming up. And I think the Saints, Gail, Dennis Laosha, their president, they have to be part of this equation of success in what's happened in New Orleans.

Yeah. that is a lot. Now, Jerry Jones technically counts as the GM, probably going back. But yes, as a standalone GM, that's a long time with a lot of success. And they've got some interesting decisions coming up after this season. Yeah, no doubt. I'm not, yeah. Because Gail took over the team when Tom died and then I think they went like 13 and three or something three years in a row as Drew Breeze was still there. Well, guess what? You know, Sean Peyton's gone. Drew Brees is there. You're left with Derek Carr and Dennis Allen. And I think that's why when we, if I were to look at these owners as a stock that I wanted to buy stock in for the next five years.

You know, Kraft obviously is in a, with his age and everything and where they're going, you may not. You know, the Steelers have been a really solid bet, but, you know, maybe they're still good. The Seahawks with Jody Allen, I mean, she's going to sell the team at some point through the... Yeah, but have you heard that come up at all lately? It hasn't come up at all because there's no ticking clock. lock on it. Right. That's what I point. Yeah. Yeah. Because you think she can just write it out for as long as she wants. No question. I don't think there is anything that is going to say, hey, I want to sell this team. Plus, it

tells me how much money these teams are actually making as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one last thing. So, you know, Clark Hunt, since hiring Andy Reid has like the best record in the league. But in those years before, when he took over from his late Fado Lamar, founder of the team, founder of the AFL, they had one of the worst records when he got Andy. I thought that was kind of an interesting thing because I think Clark Hunt is, I think you can be a good owner and have bad results because you could just hit on some of the wrong people for a while or whatever. But that's kind of a huge reversal. And so I was kind of calibrating in my mind.

Of course, we give Andy Reed and Patrick Mahomes a ton of credit. But Andy Reid won before Mahomes. How do you see that in a franchise like that? You know, is Clark Hunt totally benefiting just from having Andy, Reed or no, he's a good owner anyway and here's why. Well, I think he's a good owner from the standpoint of he asked their correct questions and he's qualified to ask the right questions. So I know there's a respect factor there. So his criteria for hiring Andy Reed made it a no-brainer. Andy and whoever else was there found a way to get Mahomes and that's a credit to them. So as

you move down the food chain, you can't just hire people that know less than me. And that goes all the way down to interns in the office. And there are some, some franchises that hire people at director level. This happens in scouting all the time. I'm going to hire people that know less than me. Therefore, I'm never going to be, my job's never going to be at stake. So that is a crazy way to operate. I don't know if the real business world operates like that. I have no experience outside the NFL. But if they do, that's a mistake because I want the smartest people around me is my belief. And I don't want to be the smartest guy in the room. And I don't want to have complete autonomy. I want to have people that make me better. And the only way that's going to happen is if I

hire people and actually listen to them and they are better and then promote them from with either in or out to somewhere else. So I think that's what the chiefs and Clark Hunt have done is they've hired competent people throughout their organization. I think you would find if you studied the rest of their organization, even non-football side, there's probably a lot of competent people there as well. So I find this whole topic, Mike, fascinating. We could do a whole show from the standpoint. Well, a whole show, I think you can write a book, write a whole book on it, on the criteria of ownership, all the things we've talked about, put it into your bucket analogy of six or eight buckets for all these owners. I think it's a fascinating topic. Maybe we're boring our listeners to death, but I love it.

I think it's really interesting. There's a couple letters that I thought were interesting to me. Stan Crunky is nine games under 500 now, which think of where that team was when he kind of took over there. and they were, you know, they had some really bad years. They were in St. Louis. And look, I love the fans of St. Louis. But I think we've all conceded the vision for this team and what they're doing in L.A. and the new headquarters in the big economic development.

I just kind of had that in my mind of like pretty soon he's going to, on the whole, counting those dark days in St. Louis is going to be a winning owner. We like what they're doing with McVeigh. We'll see how long Stafford can hold on and stay healthy. But I think that was kind of an interesting one to me that has shown, some, I don't know what the word is, gravitas or just some sort of leadership out of a darker point to a brighter future.

I don't know if you're buying that, but that just kind of stood out to me that pretty soon he's going to be a winning owner. I am buying it, and my thing, Mike, on them is they always embrace change. Whether it's less need, making some changes in the scouting and some non-traditional fashion, I think Demoff, the president is open to change.

I think Cronky is open to change. We know McVeigh is open to change. There's been a lot of change and they embrace it. And I think that keeps you ahead of the curve for the most part. Those decision makers are not afraid to hire good people or let go people that aren't. So I think that's the thing for me that jumps out about the Rams is they will take risks. They understand and usually have a vision for more than six minutes. and I think that helps cronkey and will in fact make his record be off the charts in another four or five years.

Last thing I wanted to get to on this. So let's look at the, if you got that sheet in front of you, the bottom eight owners for win percentage. I'd like to know who you would bet on and why. So here they are. Michael Bidwell, Arizona, Mark Davis, Raiders, Cal McNair, Houston. It's listing Rob Walton on there for the Broncos here, but it's Greg Penner. Jimmy Haslam, Browns, Tepper, Panthers, Shod Khan, Jaguars, and Josh Harris, Washington, if there's someone on there that you're going to bet on for the next, you know, five or ten years,

I'd like to know who it is. And boy, just reading those off, Randy, I was like, this is its own, stacking them this way is really helpful because these guys, a lot of these ones are in the same boat to me. No doubt. I think the one to me that jumps out is the Denver owner, whether it's Rob Walton or Penn I think they have a chance to ascend. One, because they seem to be very supportive financially, but not afraid to ask the hard questions,

but stay out of the areas where they don't. And that's why paying a guy like Sean Payton, $15 million or whatever they pay him is worth it. And they're going to stand aside and let him run this team. And I think that is a great notion for them. And I think it's the one thing that tells me that will set them aside. And I think they'll be at the top of this heap in another. year or two, which Bronco fans, I think, should be thrilled.

Wow, we have just, this is awesome, Randy. This has been a free-flowing form, but we got so much stuff in the GM notebook. We got a couple of items here. The Zach Wilson situation kind of went by the porch for us today, which is awesome. There's so much stuff. How many times did we talk about what Aaron Rogers is saying? That was leading the show. It's almost fitting that it doesn't take up much oxygen here, although is there anything

you want to say off of that? obviously the story came out in the athletic. Diana Rossini was one of the reporters on that, that the Jets were going to turn it back to Zach Wilson for quarterback, but he initially was reluctant, and then Aaron Rogers was asked about it on McAfee, because Aaron Rogers has to be asked about everything on McAfee. I mean, it's just a, when Rogers retires,

is he going to still be on McAfee? Because this has become a huge part of the news cycle every week. Any sort of takeaways there, anything new, or just affirming what we already sort of feel about the whole situation. And do you blame Zach Wilson if that was how he felt? I think it is not surprising to me that any of this stuff took place or was reported. I have said from day one that this Jets program is kind of a dumpster fire. I think somebody clearly wanted to disparage Zach Wilson,

but I'm not shocked they're going back to him because the other guys they brought in stink. They're absolutely awful. They cut the quarterback who they deemed to give them the best chance. two weeks ago. So that tells me right there, what are these guys doing? How can he be your option, your best option, and then you cut him two weeks later? So I don't know. It's just crazy. It's just, I don't blame Zach Wilson. I came back to that. I don't. I don't blame him. I'd want it out of there too. And you're the one that told me about his agent and his representative group. I think they do get it. And I think they are pretty sharp. And so this kid's not shooting

from the hip. I get it. I'm not sure I would want any part of this. And maybe that's a character assassination for me on my own behalf, but I don't, it is what it is. I just, I think it's a total shit show, to be honest with you, and none of it surprises me. Yeah, yeah. No, I did tell you, the representative for Wilson is known as being, you know, aggressive and smart and really going after it and fearless and not afraid. So we'll see how that. So he had to have a plan. He had to have a plan when he did push back if he even did push back. Maybe he did, but couldn't this thing, couldn't it have not been that strategic? And they, because when they go to him, it's not like he gets a chance to go talk to his lawyer, and he may have just replied. He may have already

just had an off-the-cuff reply, don't you think? Or no, you think he had thought this through and, hey, if they come back to you, you tell him, I don't know if I want to do this. What do you think? I think he had to have a reply in mind. I would have. Had I been benched and been in his position, I would have been calculating my next step for sure. And if the, if his representation is as good as people say it is, then we would have had to have this discussion. What are we going to do if this? What are we going to do if that? So many people think they hire agents, the players have agents just to negotiate contracts. No, they are a partner.

They are a sounding board. They are your mouthpiece. So there's a lot more to it than that. And this, it's brought up to me more than anything. What's Robert Saul's role in all of this? Where does he stand? Because I've questioned the leadership. I've questioned the communicating with the New York media.

I mean, this guy's changed so many ways, kind of like a chameleon. And I don't know what they have in him, to be honest with you. I see no way that anybody in that. their right mind would roll this back again and just say Aaron Rogers is going to fix all this. I don't get it. Oh, I know. That's a whole other discussion. Now, I got one funny one, at least that I thought was funny this week.

So, of course, they had Joe Flacco on their roster, right? And no one's pining to see, was pining to see more of Joe Flacco. But I was watching Kevin Stafansky's press conference this week after Flacco came out. You know, Flacco threw for 250 yards. It wasn't like it was not. Yeah, he played okay. Yeah, he played okay. as if they just had Prime Peyton Manning had just come in and combined with Autogram to play

the most amazing ball. They're like, hey, coach, watching Flacco throw it around the yard. I mean, was it just tempting to just sort of go air Corrielle here and just really air it out? Because that man, he was really throwing it. Well, it showed to me how bad the quarterback play has been in Cleveland and how bad it is around most of the league right now that really when you put when you parachute in joe flackle off of his couch you're like oh my gosh this guy can spin it wow no no and a year ago we're like joe flacco if i see another minute of him playing i'm done i don't even want to watch the game

that is telling to me uh of where we're at the quarterback position for the jets and for the browns that joe flacco looks like freaking peak Peyton manning yeah he was the savior for a week no doubt I think that's where quarterback play is. And if we keep kicking ourselves for wondering why scoring's down and why offense is down, look no further than the quarterbacks and the schemes that people are trying to play around the league. I love the overthinking of it. Hey, why is offense down? Well, it's a complicated combination of scheme and pressure packages.

That's the guys throwing the ball. They've been they're awful for most kids. They've been playing for less than five years in the league and they can't do anything. They don't know what to do. And they've been forced-fed college players that everybody thinks are great into the NFL, and that's going to be a struggle that comes with a learning curve. So it makes you really appreciate what a C.J. Straude does. Oh, no doubt about it. Wow. Awesome.

Okay, let's hit the GM notebook before we get to our picks. I'll hit a couple things quick, because I know we've gone long. The one that jumped out at me most was the Jags employee embezzling $22 million over four or five years, and they finally figured it out. How does this happen? I'm going to ask the question, but then I'm going to say, this really isn't a football story. It's not about a football team.

This is a business industry story where one guy was in charge of one thing with no oversight, no accountability, no audit fashion, who was pretty bright. Obviously, this guy was bright. It was never a matter in my mind that he wouldn't get caught. It was just when. But to embezzle $22 million and buy condos and cars. I just found the story itself fascinating. But I don't really connect it to being a football team.

and the inadequacies of the Jaguars. I think it's the inadequacies of a business side of any business. Yeah, he wasn't pulling the money out of some player's paycheck or it's not affecting their salary cap. But I agree. I mean, talk about going big. You know, 22 million. With an online credit card.

And 22 million is a lot. Like, I guess if you're going to do this, like to me, if he had done it for 1.5 million, he probably gets away with it, don't you think? if he was just skimming a little bit here or there. I guess. I don't know what the red flag was that got it. 22 million is a freaking lot. Yeah.

Every business has audits. But my guess is he's so slick and slimy that he figured out a way, obviously, around that audit for some time. Yeah. But maybe you're right. Maybe if it's a million five that nobody, you know, cracks a smile. I don't know. His attorney said it went to gambling.

So, you know, I guess if you have enough of a problem and you start getting upside down, I mean, you just keep going. bigger and bigger and digging a bigger hole. But that is, that's amazing. 22 million bucks. Yeah. 22 million bucks. And then I was laughing. One of my friends on social media said, God, and he only bought the third best model of Tesla. I mean, you got to do better than that. I mean, I want to see a Lamborghini out there or something for 22 million. That's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. I also saw where he waived his right for a fair. trial or apparently he must know his hand is still in the cookie jar. Yeah. So I think there's,

some interesting facts there. Another thing in the Jaguars, yeah, what else he got? Another thing in a notebook that people have asked, and I get asked this on the radio a lot nowadays, and I'm sure you do too, is what's the difference in the Packers and really where have they come from to get where they're at now? And I think the Packers are one of those teams that nobody wants to face right now. They are hitting on all cylinders. But I did watch a bunch of Packer film this week to kind of sort it out. And it's easy to say, well, the receivers have developed. And they have, let's just face it. They've got receivers. They have one fifth round pick. They have two, a fourth round pick. They have two second round picks. They've got a college free agent. So they've gotten these guys

from all over the place. We were saying they needed Hunter Renfro a month ago. So this is good development. Well, they've just, I think that goes under the radar sometimes in that when players produce different. I mean, the chiefs would love to have this kind of development, right? In their group, in their receiver room, they haven't got it. But I think also to be credited in Green Bay is the fact that their offensive line, and I always go back to this, they've played so much better the last month. They've been efficient. They've been on the right guys.

Their pass protection has been better. And they've run the ball. For the first nine weeks, this team ranked 23rd, 24th in the league in rushing. The last four weeks, they're 13th. So they're running the ball a lot better. They've developed an identity with the Dylan kid now. their primary back. They run downhill and they run with physicality. And that's what his strengths are. He's not going to avoid people. So even though the other running back Jones 33, who's in and out of

lineup with injuries, is probably more explosive. They have figured out ways to fill his role with a couple other guys who are on their team. But Dylan's been the bell cow. So my point is it's not all about the receivers, although I do know they've developed and I can tell the difference in how they run routes, but really how they get on the same page with Jordan Love now. I think that's, and let's face it, Christian Watson is a big, fast dude. And he makes a lot of catches when contested at six foot three, they throw it to him even when he's not open. So he's healthy and now he got hurt again last week, so we'll see where this offense goes. But my answer, and being long-winded, I apologize, it's just there's there are a lot of things that have come

together for this team, I'll say since week nine or 10 offensively that to me make them a threat going forward. Yeah, absolutely. That reminds me. Last week we were asked in our, I get asked in these athletic roundtables. We were asked for, you know, what team is going to be the one to fear down the stretch.

And I did do the Packers, but it reminds me I haven't filled that out for today. I better get that thing done. Sorry. Simon, I didn't do this week's. So I'll be doing that after the show. What else you got in the notebook? Two other notes,

one of which we're kind of developing still this week. I don't know if Trevor Lawrence is going to play, but we all saw him got hurt on Monday night and his ankle injury didn't look good. Everybody's piled on the Jaguars for making him walk 45 minutes to the hospital. He didn't have to go upstairs like they do in Baltimore. Shee.

I mean, that was sad but comical at the same time. But here's my point after this. As we taped this show, Thursday, he went through practice on a limited basis and moved pretty good. This kid, you know, has never missed a game in his career. And maybe we've stumbled on to another Brett Farr from an Iron Man standpoint.

So that's my point is that maybe Trevor Lawrence is tougher, more durable than anybody we have in this game right now. Suffice to say maybe Josh Allen. But I've been impressed with what I've seen Trevor Lawrence-wise with mental toughness and physical toughness. And we'll see if he plays this week because obviously C.J. Bethard is being dinged up a little bit too. But I just, I'm excited to see a guy that is almost invincible.

and maybe that's what we've stumbled on with Trevor Lawrence. He's totally invincible. That injury hurt my knee. I've been limping around for two days looking at it. I'm like, oh my gosh, it buckled under his whole body. He's done. I would have bet he's done. Just looking at it.

Somebody, and this is off the beaten path here, but tell me if I'm crazy, Mike, but somebody reported shortly there after the game. And I feel like it was an NFL network reporter that he had a broken tibia and was going to be done forever. And maybe this is a lesson to where you can't believe everything you read. Obviously, that's not the case now, but I just caution people for what they read. Make sure it's from a credible source. My last note in the notebook before I get out of the way here is this week was the 25th anniversary of maybe this just means something dust in Seattle, but the infamous

Vinnie Testaverty quarterback sneak in the Meadowlands that brought back instant replay. What would that year have been, Mike? 98. That was my first year on the Seahawks beat. I'll never forget it. Okay, well, that was that was Dennis's last year as the head coach at sea-hawks. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you remember the game or not, but we had the lead.

They had the ball. They come down and really the last play of the game, a quarterback sneak from like the three. And Vinie Testerverte is nowhere near scoring. Stop, sure. You can see it plainest day. Yes. And the referee's explanation afterwards after they gave the Jets the touchdown and they won the game was, well, we thought his helmet was the ball.

And so that brought back the instant replay discussion, which had taken a hiatus for a couple of years. I remember to this day, this 25 years ago, I was in a suite in the Meadowlands, and a few of the league office people had come to sit with us and watch the game. Now, these weren't, it's not Roger Goodell or at the time tagli booing like that, but a lot of rank and file people that I had known and grown with were in the booth. And I remember this to this day, when they were leaving the booth after the game, they all had their head down as they shook my hand and left in embarrassing. because they knew we had just got a game stolen from us, right, by the reps. Oh, yeah. And so it was, it was, it wasn't comical. It was like a funeral procession of these people from the league office leaving our suite at the time,

just with their head down shaking it that, I'm sorry, man, everyone, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And this is like five weeks later, Dennis gets fired. And the, the degrees of separation that changed after this play and this bad referees deal, a call was crazy how it affected so many lives the way it did. Absolutely. You know, instant replay, of course, hasn't solved everything, but it came back. If there were a, you know how now they have like former officials on the broadcast, right? If there was one on that broadcast.

Don't get me started. I know. Yeah. If there was one on that broadcast, he probably would have said, hey, these officials have done a great job the first 59 minutes. Yeah. Because that's all I hear from these officiating analysts is cover their own butts. I watched the end of the Oregon, Washington game. the Oregon guy's not even close to out of bounds.

They call it a bounds. The officiating guy in the booths like, oh, they've called a great game today. I'm like, huh? What are you talking about? Then we will see the end of the chief Packer game complete debacle. And the same thing, the officiating guy in the booths, like, hey, they've done a good job for most of this game. I'm like, what are we talking about? What pisses me off, Mike, is that they've given these guys a voice now to justify calls and that that's part of the broadcast.

Now we have people, they don't even ask, they don't even have to be brought into the context or the conversation by the announcers anymore. They just blurt out like we all want to hear. Actually, I don't want to hear a freaking word from you. Just shut up and go away. I don't really care what you're saying. Bring on, let's have someone from the competition committee on there to give the commentary. Yeah. Yeah.

That end of that Vinnie Testa Verde game, I do remember because we, we went in, I remember going to the locker room and there was this corridor there. and the coaches understood the magnitude of the loss. And I just remember Dennis Erickson kind of turned and slumped. And he put both hands up against like this locker room wall, almost like if you were being arrested and you had to put your hands on the wall. You know, like he just collapsed almost into the wall and put his hands up there. And just his head just fell and he had this huge sigh. And I just remember thinking, wow, I was like witnessing what it's like when somebody knows they're doomed.

Like when you just know. So you want to be a head. coaching the NFL. Yeah, your whole livelihood, you know, it just goes on one play. And so, well, 25 years ago this week, buddy, there you go. Yeah, I guess that means we're 25 years older now than we were then. All right, before this show goes into 25th year of this broadcast here, of this recording, we've both pulled right around 500 in our picks. I had a three and a week last week. So we're right around the 500 mark. We've caught our way back. What do you like this week?

I don't like the games this week, but what do you like? I didn't find any that I have a nine or ten conviction on. I found some that I have a six or seven on. And I normally stay away from the big games per se, but I'm involved in the big games this year. And this is going to go against everything we talked about for 20 minutes on the podcast earlier. Because I like Buffalo getting the 1.5, one and a half points against Kansas City. I think Buffalo against the Eagles two weeks ago were the better team.

They didn't play like it and they ran out of steam. But I think Buffalo's desperate now and I don't know what this new revelation or these new accusations are going to mean to this team. So I'm probably an idiot. But I think Buffalo has more to prove and is more desperate. And so I'll have Buffalo getting a point in a half. The other game I like and I've seen a bunch of people pick this game as well in the same fashion that I am, I just think Dallas right now has to win this game against Philly.

Dallas is a three and a half point favorite. I think it's the Sunday night game against Philly. And I am picking Dallas. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that one, Mike. I sort of like them too. I do think that they, I feel like the Eagles have been winning a bunch of games kind of through Moxie and they weren't always necessarily, you know, should have or would have, you know, won all of those games.

And sometimes these things kind of even out. They feel a little tired and worn down to me, you know, Jalen Hertz has been carrying a lot of this thing. and their defense. Maybe not healthy, not 100%. Not 100%. I mean, I think they should probably bench David Carr at the NFL network for his analysis on it. But, you know, there's some truth to the fact that I think that he's on, Jalen Hertz is a little bit diminished and on some fumes right now.

And obviously didn't have a good game against the 49ers and had some uncharacteristic probably misses and decisions for him. So I do feel like, you know, I haven't felt like we can totally. trust Dallas, but the vital signs are really good. Other than Mike McCarthy having to have an appendicitis or, you know, a surgery this week, their vital signs seem pretty good to me. So I think you're, I think you're pretty solid on that. What do you, are you worried about them just kind of melting down with now that they are crowned or what?

They just have never dealt with prosperity. And this is one of those stages where they've been, they've been, you know, lauded, and everybody's picking them, and that's an issue. But I like Buffalo. I like Dallas. And the third game for me is a little bit, I think the NFC South has not been a good division this year. I don't think there's a secret to that. But this Atlanta, Tampa game is a giant game.

Because if Atlanta wins this game, I think it gives them a two game lead or maybe even a three game lead over Tampa. And it kind of pushes everybody to the background. They have some tiebreakers over teams. So even though Atlanta is 500, this win would put them one above, but it kind of gives them a stranglehold on the NFC South. but if Tampa wins it, it puts everybody into play. Not only Tampa, it reels the Saints back into play. And so then it's a three-man dog fight for the last month of the season. So I happen to like Atlanta right now in this game, giving one and a half points to Tampa.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think any of these teams are good teams. We watched Atlanta beat up on the Jets last week. And I think my comment was a 13-D-8 win over the Jets team does not mean you woke up on third base and hit a triple, okay? I think you just had one given to you, you know. So I'm going to pick Atlanta, giving a point in a half at home versus Tampa Bay. Yeah, I was tempted. So, you know, one of the games that was interesting to me,

I'm not going to pick it unless you talk me into it. But Jacksonville getting three at Cleveland. Which has been known to happen. Yeah, my, exactly. Last week I ended up picking the 49ers, so I was glad I did that. But the interesting thing to me about Jacksonville at Cleveland is, C.J. Beth,

our backup for the Jaguars. And the idea of a backup quarterback and having someone who can go in there and function and maybe even win some games like Indy's doing with Gardner Minshu, right? I understand Gardner Minchus is a backup quarterback, but like they've got a fighting chance in some of the games to run their offense.

And I was shocked that Jake Browning was able to do that. Hat tipped to him. He did a great job for Cincinnati. No doubt. This Jacksonville drop from, let's just say, Lawrence has to miss a week to C.J. Bethard, is that just a total non-starter for you that if CJ Betherd plays, they can't beat Cleveland at all?

Or is Cleveland that enough? I don't think so, but the last I saw, Mike, C.J. Bethard was questionable as well. And he's been limited in practice. So I don't know who the next guy up is, but that's maybe what you're having. What's Mark Brunel doing these days? I wonder if he's still coaching.

We can get him in there for them. But so I'm going to stay away from that one. It just sort of interested me a little bit in that, hey, Cleveland is not trending in the right direction. I know Flacco, whatever, this or that, but I feel like Cleveland could be a vulnerable team. I just, Jacksonville, that quarterback uncertainty will stir me away. The couple that I'm going to do don't feel great about them.

I've wavered on this one. The Chargers giving two and a half, I kind of feel like the Chargers might beat Denver by a field goal. Now, I'm a little worried that Denver's ability to run the ball, which you talked about in your column looking at the six and six teams this year, could just play right into the idea. to a potential weak spot for for the Chargers. But I think the Chargers defense has done well against the bad teams.

I think their issue has been, their issue has been, you know, when they step up in class and play on Miami, all of a sudden there's 50 points on the scoreboard. So I kind of think this is a manageable game for the Chargers that they probably should be able to win. I'm very interested in seeing the Russell Wilson situation after the three interceptions. I know he's played a more efficient ball and they found a formula. I just don't think that Sean Payton likes that.

I don't know. I just, we'll just see if there's a couple more interceptions in this game, what the consequences could be there. I think Brandon Staley, for all his issues on defense, at times has played a scheme that has given Russell Wilson some problems over the years. So I will do that and see where that goes. Don't know how you feel about that. Do you like Denver or do you like the Chargers?

It's one of those games where I could make a case for. for both teams. So I kind of stayed away from it just for that reason. But I agree with you. The Chargers do have a way of making a statement against bad teams. And so, you know, these division games, you just never know. Division games are really hard for me because these teams know each other so well. There's no fear factor. And everybody's always desperate within its own division. The other interesting thing about that game to me was I think Sean Payton clearly wanted the charger job and they weren't willing to make that type of hire, as you and I talked about, They don't want to do that type of a coach.

And so now can he go beat the quarterback he wanted to have with the quarterback he inherited in Denver? I think it would be a nice little challenge for Sean Payton. So he's done certainly a good job here in recalibrating that team. We'll see if they can do it. But I will just, because it's two and a half, I'll do that. The other one that I may be crazy for doing is I'm going to take Carolina in the five and a half at New Orleans. I just feel like the Panthers have played a lot of these games fairly close. and the Saints are reeling in the wrong direction.

I don't know if the Saints are a team that can rally and summon and have the get right game. How do you feel about that? Well, it seems like a lot of people are down on the Saints right now, even New Orleans people. So it's a hard one for me as well. It is a home game. I don't think Carolina is good. They are getting five and a half points, so you do get that if you pick them. I just, I don't know.

I think New Orleans is a. team that's teetering. And maybe Carolina does rally the troops. Yeah, I feel like, you know, that all this stuff coming out about how bad their building is in Carolina. Shoot, maybe if we knew everything about everyone's building, we wouldn't bet on anybody, right? We wouldn't pick anybody. Good point. If we really had the inside, you know, dirty laundry on all the teams, you'd probably feel terrible about it, even the teams that are winning. If they all knew all the garbage that goes on behind the scenes and the egos and agendas and all of that, you set aside that in picking Buffalo anyway. And I'm going to set aside that in this Carolina case and just think that,

you know, by the end of the year, they get one or two wins. They've got one of them already. I don't think they're going to beat the Saints, but they've played some of these teams close. So in a week where I don't love a lot of the options, I'm not going to pick five games and try to get right. I'll just take a couple here and see how they go, and we'll call it a show. How about that? Sounds great, man. Sorry for us being so long-winded listeners. Looking forward to seeing and hearing from me again next week. And let me just throw this out, Mike. If anybody out there has a topic or anything that they want us to discuss, I have people on Twitter all the time throw things at me. I'd love to hear from the people. So I think it's always good. I'm going to give them to your cell number

here. Five-five-five. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. You can find Randy on X slash Twitter at Randy Mueller underscore. You can find me there at Sando NFL. Thanks, everybody, and we'll talk to you next time. This was the Athletic Football Show's Football G-N-Show. podcast.