The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Football GM: Justin Herbert deal, Cowboys, Bryce Young, Bears & more camp moves

Episode Date: July 27, 2023

From Justin Herbert's huge new deal, to another move made by Jerry Jones, teams that we might need to pump the breaks on and more, Mike Sando and Randy Mueller dive into these NFL training camp topics and more, including Frank Reich's role in the Carolina offense, Aaron Rodgers and the Jets, and the Chicago Bears.Sponsored by BetterHelp - Let therapy be your map, with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp dot com slash MAYS today to get 10% off your first month. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Before we jump in, I want to tell you about New York Times Audio, a new iOS app for New York Times News subscribers. It's got our show, plus all of the other podcasts from The Athletic, exclusive shows, narrated articles, and more. New York Times Audio, download it now at n.y times.com slash audio app. This is the athletic football show. Welcome, everyone, to this July. late July training camp edition of the football GM podcast, Mike Sanda here from the Athletic, along with the GM, Randy Mueller from the Athletic as well. Randy, we're back. You can see the smile on my face, Mike. I'm happy about that. Good to be back. And I always get

excited when training camp starts. He's been a GM for many years in the league. And it was never any different than it was like a kidney candy store. Can't wait to see everybody. Can't wait to get guys in the meeting room and just kind of see what we got. So it's a fun time. I know there's 32 GMs around the league and a lot of other people as well that are excited that these days are here now. The off-season has become longer. They become more of a grind for all of us, really.

And now you get to kind of see the fruits of your labor. Well, speaking of fruits of labor, I got to thank you for keeping the athletic NFL, you know, publishing alive while I was on vacation. I mean, geez, you were busy, Mueller. Did you get any downtime this summer? What do you do in a summer? I'm just curious. This summer's been a little hectic.

As you know, once I joined the athletic full time, my time wasn't always mine. And that's okay. That's what you sign up for, right? I enjoyed our bounce. Yeah, I enjoyed the bounce around the league. You know, there's a lot of local riders at the athletic, as you know, that cover these teams really well. And they do an awesome job. And I leaned on some of them for some things.

others, I think, can only be described from that GM chair, and that's the angle I took. So it was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun, and it gave me a really good chance to dive into 32 teams. And as you know, a project like that is enormous when you're a one-man show. Well, we're definitely going to get into that, and we're going to get into all the news that's most interesting. Justin Herbert, of course, has a new extension. I thought Tim Graham had a great story for us on DeMar Hamlin's possible comeback and some interesting choices and decisions that could become there. There's other news with the bills.

Of course, Saquan Barclay's in camp with the Giants. Mark Murphy is the new Aaron Rogers pontificating on all things. I'm just kidding. All things, Packers. We got the Cowboys Resunning Diggs. We got all kinds of stuff. But before we get into it, I was asking you, what do you, did you go fishing this summer at all? Did you play any golf?

I'll, you know, I'll let you know a couple things I did, but did you do anything fun? non-work. I'll start in reverse. I have not played golf and a buddy of mine has asked me to play in a member guest that's in about three weeks. He might want to reconsider because I'm going to be dead weight and his back is going to be sore as hell. I can promise you from carrying us, but I haven't played much golf yet. I plan on playing in the next couple weeks in and around my travels. I have fish some, but not enough to where I can say summer is when you fish, right? And I don't think I've seen summer yet. So I'm hoping to get there and some. summer as camps wind out through August. So I'm not ready to give in to the fall yet.

Yep. No, I did play some golf. We went down to Lake Tahoe. I know you, you know, you are near Lake Kordalane, which is beautiful, too, one of our favorite spots, but we, we like Tahoe as well. So we had a little nice family getaway there. I would encourage anyone. If you can ever get down to Lake Tahoe on the north shore, the Sand Harbor State Park. You got to get there early in the morning to carve out your spot. But there is nothing. like it. If you've ever swam and water that you're not really sure if it's 12 feet or 20 feet deep, because it doesn't matter.

You can see forever. Just beautiful. So that's really a great sort of on the western side of the U.S., not really West Coast, but close to the West Coast. That's a favorite spot for me. Yeah, I have not been there. I've been to Tahoe a few times, but never to that park, so

I'll definitely put that on the list. I did get a chance in some of our listeners are laugh at this, but to hike into a mountain lake last month near, like you said, Cord Lane, where I spend most of my time. And the guys I went in with were family, right? There's a couple of people in the family crew that decided they were going to swim in this lake when we got in there. Half the lake was iced over still. So how warm do you think that one was? Yeah. It was crazy. I thought they were nuts, but they did it. They lived through it. They came out the other side. I wanted no part of it, of course. When I see ice chunks floating out there,

I'm not really fired up to strip down to my skivies and jump in, you know? And it was crazy, but it was a fun time. So I love those swimming stories, especially in the summertime, but they're not always warm water. I'm here to witness that. Well, Tahoe by the shore, even though it's a deep, cold lake, pretty nice this time of year. So recommend that. I also recommend that people go on to the athletic and you can pull up, you can search by writer, not just team, you can search by writer.

You can search by Randy Mueller now, since he is on the staff at the Athletic. And he put together eight columns this off season kind of looking at each one actually is on a division. And he does put him in the order of projected finish by Randy. So there's some interesting picks there. But then also just sort of his concern with each team. And I read through this. You must have been bored, Mike, if you read through them off. I didn't peek through through when I was really on a little bit, but not much when I was on vacation.

I did a good job of kind of separating and not thinking too much about NFL, although it's hard when you have this type of job to call it work. But still, I focus on the family and all of that type of stuff. But I did read through this, and I thought there were some nuggets in here that would be interesting to discuss some themes before we get into some of the news going on. So one of the themes I picked up on is being worried. There's a few teams here in this boat. When your head coach comes from a certain side of the ball, but you aren't sure.

You're not convinced. Maybe the evidence isn't there yet that he's a big difference maker on that side of the ball. Or kind of in conjunction with this, there could be maybe some personnel scheme fit issues for those types of coaches. The three places that I kind of put stars by that I thought were interesting. I want to get your thoughts on them was Chicago with. head coach Maddie Eberfluse and the Bears defense. The Los Angeles Chargers, the Brandon Staley and the Chargers defense. And then Carolina, where Frank Reich has not lost a game yet, but the Panthers offense,

lots of excitement there, rightfully so, new first round pick. Obviously, Frank Reich is well regarded, well liked, but there's some things to discuss there. So let's go through these one by one, Randy, starting with the Bearer. who in Free Agency did make some Iber Fluse type signings. I mean, I didn't necessarily love them all, but loading up on linebackers in Free Agency, he's a former linebacker coach.

But that defense was really bad. And now we're all going to focus on Justin Fields. That's going to take up all the oxygen in the room. But maybe you're not assuming that they're going to be okay on defense. Short term, long term, what do you think? I just don't know how you could assume, Mike. I mean, the numbers don't lie. I didn't make them up.

They are what they are. Their defense was awful. I just get nervous when it's the head coach's area of expertise when they're the worst in, if that makes any sense. So I just thought they were terrible stopping the run. And you're right. Signing Tremaine Edwards from Buffalo, the linebacker, I think is going to help. Yeah, Edmonds. They may end up using him a little bit as a rusher and can justify what they paid him because of that.

you know, it's hard to pay an inside linebacker, that kind of money if he doesn't get you some sacks. But I just think there's been a lot, like you said, of oxygen draining conversation on Justin Fields when it's a struggle on offense, no doubt. They ran, gosh, a portion of the single wing last year. Yeah. For the part, they attempted fewer passes than anybody. And they have to advance the passing game. I get it. But I think to help his cause and help the Bears move forward, the defense has to take their fair share of, one, the blame, and two, the improvement. You know, I've seen a lot of stories about Ryan Poles, their GM in the last few months about how his vision is this, his vision is that. It's almost as if he's got a track record of proven to rebuild teams, and that's, you know, something that it will find out.

You know, it's not like he's ever done this job before. So I'm not doubting him. I like all the participants. It's just before we crown him, as Jenny Green used to say, we got to see some improvement. And I think the media coverage is very positive about the Bears. And I don't dispute that at all. But they also forget that this was a really bad team. It was the worst team in the league.

They had the first pick. They felt so good about Justin Fields that they traded the first pick. So we'll see how that works out. just feel like the Bears drew a pass kind of for their record last year. And we've got to see some improvement this year to feel, you know, better about it. I just want to get into specifically on the defense, though, you know, and how, because obviously the talent wasn't there. I mean, no one was expecting them to be great last season. But when you, your head coaches have a certain side of the ball, should you ever be just horrifically bad, bleeding all of the time? I think that, that is

the thing that sort of resonated with me. And we need to see some real progress. from that sort of the ball, even if the talent's not great, right, to be able to patch that together. Because don't you feel you've got to affect the game on game day or in some way, right, as the head coach? And so that's an unproven thing. I've taken over teams myself, Mike, and they were bad. That's why these jobs come open. That's why you get them. One in New Orleans, where Jim Haslett was my coach, and our defense ended up being pretty good in year one.

and we actually went to the playoffs in year one. I went to Miami with Nick Saban, who was obviously criticized for what they had done in prior years. We went 9 and 7 the first year, and Nick didn't fix the defense, but we sure made a lot of progress. Even if I went back further in my career in Seattle, when Dennis Erickson came from Miami to Seattle as the head coach,

we immediately became better on offense because of his system and his scheme. So that's my only. three experiences were with that. And the coach's expertise mattered, and it showed soon in those three instances of rebuild. Oh, absolutely. And going back even before in your first job going to the Seacups, you know, you were obviously, you know, very young and coming in. But Tom Catlin came in as a decoritor. They got good quick, you know, on defense. So I think that's just something that struck me. Let's go to the Chargers with Staley. And that's been talked about a little bit more. because obviously they haven't been as good as hoped on the defensive side of the ball.

But I thought your points were interesting about the personnel fitting the scheme. What did you mean there and what concerns? Yeah. And I would say this, that's part of the problem probably in Chicago still. They've swapped, you know, defensive schemes and fronts. And that does take some time. Again, I've been through that too. And it can happen fairly quickly if you choose the right players and build the right group to fit that scheme.

But yeah, I've always had that. issue in Chargerland in that I thought they were small, got pushed around way too much, weren't physical enough. They haven't been able to make up the differences in the scheme nonfits with defensive play calling, with the defensive adjustments. So they've struggled on defense too. They were, I think they might have been the worst team in the league against the run last year. I don't have my numbers in front of me, but they were at the very bottom. So how they're going to solve that? I don't know. They got rid of Kyle Van Hoy, who was kind of their movable chess piece, who I actually like, but I think he's still unsigned. They got rid of another younger

linebacker, which is very uncharger-like to get rid of younger players without paying them first. And he went to the jet or the chiefs in a division rival move. So they've got some issues. I think they've got to get better play. In the film that I looked at, especially the last game of the year in Jacksonville, Joey Bosa didn't make many plays at all. And Derwin James, got exposed a little bit in the passing game. So they've got to get better play out of those stars, too. But I think they're still trying to tweak the players that they bring in there to fit Brandon Staley's scheme.

And that's a problem. And that's got to be better this year. I don't care how much they pay Justin Herbert or how good he is. Their defense's got to be better. On Carolina, which, by the way, you picked the bucks to finish second behind the Saints and the NFC South with Carolina third. And you wrote in this column on the NFC South and some of the concerns that, you know, I think it has been talked about a little bit about Bryce Young's size behind a big offensive line. We'll see how that goes.

But I was just more interested in what your concerns could be with Frank Reich there as, you know, the offensive guru and play caller. Well, they just haven't been explosive. And I think they got rid of their best receiver, right? Or one of the top guys when they sent them to Chicago. Well, yeah, for that pick. But I think Bryce Young is going to struggle. That's just normal. John Elway struggled.

Peyton Manning struggle. They're going to struggle. And I do think the height issue forces that team to have to build a little bit of a different offensive front. I think those guards and center have to be a little more stout. They cannot allow any pressure at all up the gut because of Bryce Young's size. That's going to be a vision will be a problem. So I think there's issues there.

But in overall, with Frank, and I love Frank, I was with him for several years at the Chargers. The explosiveness that his offenses have lacked, whether there or whether it was in Indianapolis, we'll find out in Carolina. I just don't think it's a slam dunk that that team is ready to make a playoff run. And I think a fairly weak division, I thought I had much less concerns about the Saints and, frankly, more, less concerns in Tampa. And that's why I picked them third. Yeah. I thought there were a couple of utter interesting notes in the column that I singled out here.

We'll save some others for the season. But one's on the Jets, another one's on the Cowboys. You know, the Packer fans will relate to this. But, you know, you brought up the Jets sign in Alan Lazard and Randall Cod, which we've kind of joked about, hey, those are Rogers guys, you know, all that. But how concerning is that and why? Well, they just didn't move the meter for me as players. I don't know. I guess they're getting guys that are familiar with Rogers and maybe the

offense that they're going to run. And there is value in that. Without a doubt, anytime a coach comes, he's going to want a few of his guys to help the learning curve, help the process move in a quicker direction that keep people on the same page or get them on the same page. So I don't love Lazard or Cobb as players, but I understand the intangible part of it. I think the offensive line still with the Jets is a work in progress. and I saw a bad offense last year, and you can't blame it all on Zach Wilson, and I know that's the easy, low-hanging fruit

to just start killing him, you know, but I saw a lot of things that I wasn't happy with other players' efforts, other players' execution of whatever the offense was. So I just think they're a little bit of a transition question for me still. I'm not ready to drink the Kool-Aid that a lot of high-profile media Jets people are, you know. Yep.

The other one was on the Cowboys, because you had sort of alluded in there that you've seen my takeaway was that you felt pretty good about the combination of Mike McCarthy and Brian Schottenheimer calling the offense, which I think the conventional wisdom, you know, or at least one of the themes you'll hear in media a lot is, hey, you know, losing Kellynne Moore to the Chargers, that's a big loss for Dallas, and people have less confidence in the offense as a result. but it sounded like you almost felt like this could be a good thing for DAC. How?

Well, I think it will be a more conservative offense. It might be more predictable, but I think they're going to do less on offense and maybe do it better. I think they'll be less mistake prone, which might help DAC in the interception rate. I think they've got to do a better job of converting turnovers. Their defense created a ton of turnovers last year, and their defense carries them still. But I think Mike, between Mike and Schottenheimer, they will do less, they'll be less innovative. It might not be all the bells and whistles that Kellan brings,

and I think Kellan's a good coach. It's just a different style that I think Mike McCarthy's comment of, you know, we've got to score points and we've got to win games. I think what he was trying to say is our offense has to play alongside our defense, and they've got to be compatible. And I think that's by a little more conservative on offense, maybe a little more taking fewer risks, maybe running the ball, a tad bit more, that they think they can take advantage of that defense and the turnovers

that creates. Yes. Yeah. I think one of the, you know, one of the criticisms has been, hey, are they going for stats, right? You hear that sometimes. Yes. In the past.

In the past, you know, talking. And I think one of the clues from Mike McCarthy before last season was, hey, our strength of this team is defense and we're going to play to that, right? And that's not always what offensive coaches say, but it is what head coaches say. So, you know, McCarthy's been criticized some and some fairly, you know, over the years, the end of the Green Bay thing. Some of the things with his offense, the wrinkles in his offense, or lack of wrinkles, right? But this is a little bit of a different situation now because he has identified that he wants to be a defensive team. And then also, you know, I think in Green Bay and LaFleur is going to go through this too.

I think having Rogers there at that stage of his career is a different thing that you work around too. obviously great advantages to that. But this may be Mike McCarthy in more control than he's been in for a while, even at the end of his Green Bay tenure, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I totally agree. Because I think you're right. You had the Rogers factor toward the end of his tenure, and Rogers had the status and could probably do pretty much what he wanted there as well.

But ever since they hired Mike in Dallas, you and I and a few others that we talk to have said, well, if he's not going to run his offense, if he's not going to call plays, what are we getting? Whose offense is he running? It was clear that it was Kellins, and I understand that, and it was something Dak was comfort with. Are they going to run that same offense now? I mean, we'll see.

They've kept some carryover of coaches that are still there just because Kellan leaves doesn't mean that whole scheme leaves. So maybe this is more of a lean toward the Mike McCarthy of old, is all I'm saying, which I don't think is a bad thing in this instance. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's some other nuggets in there. We'll save those for another podcast as the training camp and gets going and preseason games. We'll be here before you know it.

Topping the news, Justin Herbert Extension, $52.5 million per year is number one in history of the league, number one, obviously among quarterbacks until probably Joe Burrow does his deal at some point. These things keep going higher. I just thought it was interesting. Well, first, no-brainer, right, Randy? I mean, this had to get done. It's good that it got done. No question.

There's nothing to criticize with regard to it. It is a no-brainer. It had to happen. Chargers really couldn't wait. They didn't want to wait and didn't pay a premium on top of Burrow and anybody else that signs, really. They had to do it. They were always willing to do it. My guess is they got a good sense of deferred cash to help with the payout, which a lot of clubs, that's a big thing.

And the charges have always been a deferral team. We were won in Seattle for years and why not use that? And they probably, to get those deferrals in the cash payout, gave a good average, which obviously 52 and a half million. And the guarantees that Herbert needed to extend his money. I mean, it's not like they're cutting Herbert at any point. No, no, never. So there's nothing bad about them signing this kind of deal early. And what they did do, I think is, and always these big money deals do this, Mike.

They always set and allow you to project your cap. So you can build around real numbers now. And I saw a little bit of this structure and it has some giant bonuses, roster bonuses that come out, conversion option bonuses that just create cap room as well to push out money. So they did it in a smart way. They're still going to be able to build around him. It's not going to kill them for at least two or three years. Eventually, though, as you know, when you sign a deal that's $52.5 million on average,

your cap numbers might be low. and maybe let's just pick a number. Maybe it's 25 this year, 30 next year. Well, what does that mean on the back end? It means it's going to be 65 and 70 million on the back end because it's got to average 52.5. I'm no math major, but that average isn't going away. It's even more than that, Randy,

because Justin Herbert's cat number, what I read next year in 2024 is 194. So I do think they're at an interesting spot. We talked about Brandon Staley. First off, are you excited about Kellen Moore going there? Do you think it's a big year for Herbert? I do think he's going to have a big year, but what do you think? Yeah, I think it's a good move on their part. They've struggled on offense really as good as he is.

I think most would think they've at least been inconsistent. Some would say underachieve, but definitely inconsistent. So I think the Kellen Moore move is a positive, without a doubt. I do think, and where you're going with your statement, I'll let you finish. But I think Brandon Staley has to do some things on his end. to make Kellyn Moore's hire be a long-term hire. Yeah, and the thing we've talked about, you know, every year in the NFL, there's urgency, and, you know, it's what did you've done for me lately?

But, you know, to hit on a theme we talked about, I think, a little bit earlier in the offseason, they've got a, they're leveraged out right now. And so when I was putting to get our list, Randy, they've got six guys making 19 million a year or more, okay? And that's Justin Herbert, Joey Bosa, Kalil Mack, Keenan Allen, and Mike Williams, and Durbin-James, and then after that's Jay C. Jackson at 16.5. But when you look at what those guys' cap numbers are next year, we said Herbert's is low, 19. Bosa's at 366, Killelea Max at 38, 5, Keenan Allen's at 347, Mike Williams is at 32.5.

It's a big year for the Chargers. They've got to do something. Yeah, I totally agree. And that's what happens when you start leveraging future cap is you've got a, it starts the clock ticket. And the window isn't necessarily Joe Burroughs career. Like he said, it might be in Cincinnati, but not when you make these kind of deals. So I like added urgency, especially being added in Chargerland because that hasn't always been the case. They have acted, in my opinion, a lot of years, like they all have tenure contracts. So I like the urgency that, hey, we do have to win this year. It's got to be better.

you know, maybe you stretch it into another year, but I agree with you. It's time to, you know, get it done or more change will be coming for sure. So that's a GM hat from team building. I want to put on a different GM hat or you put on a different GM hat here in relation to another story, another AFC team. I thought Tim Graham, who does a great work for us at the athletic, he and I go way back, even if we worked together before we were at the athletic. but Tim's in Buffalo, and he did a really good story on Demar Hamlin's comeback, which, you know, from cardiac arrest to living and then getting back on the football field is an amazing success story as it is.

But what Tim wrote about was, hey, that's all well and good, but he's going to be treated like a football player, you know, moving forward, which is wonderful. but that means he could be released or there could be difficult decisions for the team to make. And so Tim actually spoke to the former Bengals player, Devin Still, who's daughter had a terrible form of cancer years ago. Thankfully, she's in remission. The cancer's in remission. But he was a success story too in coming back, and he was on the stage at the Espies with LeBron James.

And then a couple months later, he's being cut by. the Bengals. So I just thought, I was curious what you thought from a GM standpoint of, you know, the handling of something like that, we're not saying DeMar Hanlon's going to be cut. He may come out and have a great camp, but he also may only be the fourth safety there or who knows. They brought in somebody. They traded for a safety who could imperil his standing on the team. What do you think of that sort of balancing the human part of it as a GM versus, you know, hey, best 53? It's really hard. I mean, I, I, I, commend the bills for how they handled things last year.

They were, I mean, motivating to all of us on several levels. But having lived through some of these tragedy-type things, the other end is it's a great story for the players to come out of it or whoever to come out of it. But I think the bills have to do what's right for them too. So it's hard to keep another player, if said player, in this case, to Moore Hamlin, if he's the fourth or fifth safety, okay, how many safeties are we going to keep? You know, that's my point. So maybe you, if it's a tie, it goes to the runner in deciding

who makes your team, but it's a hard one because you're also talking about somebody else's career and releasing them because maybe they didn't go through that same hardship. So you have to consider the personal part of it in the team building fact. of how it would play in the locker room, no doubt. But you've also got to, from a business standpoint, do what's right for us to set our team up for the best 17 run we can make. So I don't know that I have an answer for it. I don't know all of the dynamics of what DeMarie Hamlin carries in that locker room. It sounded like, obviously, last year, you know, everybody loved them and it is what it is.

Oh, yeah. You still have to play. and you still got to be a good productive player. What about the concern of that he could be hurt again? You know, that's a medical question, but certainly as a GM, you're not a doctor, but you'd be concerned, right? Well, they've already passed him on a physical, so he's back now. And that would have been my concern initially is that do we want to pass him on a physical right now? I mean, this would have been, to me, a prime case for a pup, you know.

And again, I'm no doctor. I don't know the facts behind it. but a pup would have given us a little bit of time to work. And maybe he's already passed all those tests. Obviously he has because they passed him. And he's, my understanding, is without restriction. So, yeah, you'd think there would be some backlash for a reoccurrence? I don't know.

I don't know that. I don't claim to know that. I just concerned. It's all just concerned. Yeah. It's human interest concern. And if you didn't have concern, I think you wouldn't be human. Yeah.

Absolutely. So we'll be watching that one rooting for tomorrow Hamelin, but we'll see how that goes with them in camp. Also on the bills, how about this, Randy? You know, the Nyheim Hein injury, ACL after there. He's sitting on a jet ski and someone, you know, someone else on a jet ski comes by and hits him and there goes the ACL. I'm sure Brandon Bean on his, you know, worries of the day didn't have a jet ski hitting the running back he acquired from Indy, but such as life in the NFL, huh? Yeah, I've been there. It is a true. You know how people say, it was like a punch in the gut, you know? Have you ever experienced a punch in the gut that really takes your breath away that's not a physical blow? Some kind of news that just, you sit, you just. Yeah. And that's what this had to be for Brandon Bean.

It happened to me once in Seattle when we lost our prize free agent signing one off season, Nate Odom's, a corner from Buffalo, who tore his knee up two weeks before camp in a pickup. a basketball game. And I remember Ralph Cendridge's agent calling me to tell me about it. And I literally had to sit down. I said, I'm just thinking, are you kidding me? Is this really happening? This happened? You know, you get wired to these players and you love them so much that you can't wait to see them. You've gone through an exhaustive recruiting and signing of them. And in this case, they're finally getting set for their, their offseason is over. We've got through all the mini camps. the OTAs, we don't, we're healthy.

What can happen? All we got to do is show up and we're ready for training camp, right? Yeah. Not so fast. Not so fast. It's kind of like being parents of 53 people that are out there, you know, life happens. You know, sometimes it's not even your fault. Things are going to happen. You're going to lose a player.

So, yeah, interesting there. I guess my guess is they're going to have to kick the tires on a lot of running backs now to take it one step further. I mean, where does that put, hook, where does that put Ezekiel Elliott? Does it throw these guys in the mix there? I don't know. I thought it was interesting. And I put this in my notes as well.

They signed a player that has XFL ramifications for me in running the Seattle XFL team. We had the rights to a running back from Appalachian State, a former third round pick of Tennessee, awarded to us two nights ago. And then the next day, he signs with Buffalo. So we lost what we thought would be a potential runner for us as well. So. The trickle down of this injury? Not that anybody cares about that, but yeah.

No. It's nuts. You care about it. I mean, for sure. Darren's his name. And he doesn't even know it because he's, he wasn't even told that he was, his rights had been claimed by the Seattle XFL team. But because he didn't, he hadn't been playing.

He hadn't been on a roster at all. Yeah. And he thought his summer was, he was going to head out jet ski it. And the next day he's on a plane to Buffalo. And who knows how long that lasts. but that's how crazy this league is. Every day is a new adventure. You know, and you mentioned Alvin Cook, who's available and I think has had some interest.

You know, he's kind of maybe wanted to go to Miami, but, you know, there's always going to be a price issue, especially for a player like that who's, you know, used to being regarded so highly in the league and now there's an adjustment period when, wait a minute. But that's one of the things about training camps is needs are going to arise. And wouldn't you say if you're a player out there who has some accomplishments, be patient, be patient. because there's no need to take a bad, you can take a bad deal anytime. Yeah, you can take a bad deal the week before the first game.

Yeah, exactly. But you never know how the misfortune or whatever of somebody else could affect your, you know, your value. So we'll see. I don't know, I don't know that Naheim Heinz injury is going to affect the value of Dalvin Cook, but these things can be interrelated and sometimes, you know, your market can change. Speaking at the running back position, there was headlines made.

Sequin Barclay, New York Giants, agrees to this sort of tweaked adjusted deal. He's a franchise player making about, you know, whatever, $10 million, and obviously wanted a lot more. You had written in an interesting column about this, Randy, how you'd kind of consider Sequin Barclay and Josh Jacobs, you know, the two of the three franchise tagbacks, along with Tony Powell this offseason, as being worthy of that. upper echelon running back deal, you know, the Alvin Kamara Christian McCaffey range that's definitely way higher, you know, than the $10 million a year. But the Giants didn't have to do that because they can just tag him. He can play for $10 million. It's a great deal for the team. And you'd sit all along. He's coming in. But I don't know that we yesterday saw this tweak

coming. What did you make at the tweak? I think the Giants gave him a $2 million signing bonus and $900,000 in incentives. Yeah. No, and they didn't have to do that. I figured this might have been the John Merrick card, right? He had talked, you know, glowingly of Sequin throughout the whole process about how bad they wanted to keep him. I get it. I think that Joe Shane and Brian Daibald wanted to keep him as well. I thought it was a great gesture by the Giants. I condone it 100%.

It's not like it's costing them money. They're just moving some money around to try to appease Sequin, you know. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. I felt all along that Sequin didn't want to hold out, even though he knew he had to take the tag money. That wasn't going to change. I just felt like this kid's not going to show up the week before. That's just not how his DNA is wired. So I'm not surprised.

I just think it's a really classy move by the Giants, to be honest with you. Now, it may have repercussions around the league in that you don't see this happen very often. But I thought it was a great way to. We always said when we're negotiating deals that we're going to save a life. reserve to land the player at some point, even as hardline as negotiations sometimes can be. And I don't care what sport or business you're in, negotiating is all about timing. And usually some kind of a deadline spurs that. But also, if you have some card in your back pocket that the agent and player can say,

hey, I'm coming in, but here, I got this. You know, some way to land the boat, you know, and this was a great gesture on their part to do it. You know, and sometimes you, as a team, you do, you bend the rules and it bites you later, right? Oh, this precedent was set. We just did something. But you know what? I love this precedent for their standpoint because he's a, even though he is a running back and, you know, no one wants to pay running back.

He's a, he's a marquee talent. I mean, he's a top three or five for sure running back in the NFL. And so if the price to get him to come in is a couple. million of the, the 10 million is fully guaranteed anyway. They're paying them. It's already accounted for. So they give him $2 million and then incentives of less than a million? It's in advance. That sign-y bonus is just in advance. He gets $2 million now. That's great. But this isn't some amazingly huge concession. I think it did show what you said in his heart, Sequin Barclay wanted to be there. He wants to be part of the team. He thinks the system sucks. But he knows that it's the

system. They have to play with the system. So I actually love this for the team. I can't think of why it would be bad. And if they're in a pickle with somebody else later, and that's all they have to do to get the guy to come in, and he'll be there for camp, fine by me, right? Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. I guess the next step is what happens with Josh Jacobs now. And if you're the Raiders, do you do something or does Josh Jacobs demand this? And if it only takes this to get him in camp soon, why wouldn't they do it? Yeah. Yeah, you know, one of the interesting things in your column

on the running back situation was, hey, don't buy this narrative that, oh, if they don't do a long-term deal with Sequin, it's going to be bad in the locker room because players understand business as business. I can see you shaking right now. I totally agree with you. I think that's great analysis.

But the readers are a little bit of an interesting place to me because it seems like a lot of people have kind of gone out there with, you know, sour looks on their face, right? whether it was Darren Waller. I mean, it wasn't just that he kind of got sideways and left. I mean, he was talking, his wife was talking. How many people's wives are out there publicly saying something?

I mean, you know, I mean, that's, it's not like Darren Waller has some history of being, you know, being a grumpy guy. That happened, you know, I think, you know, there's been lots of sort of, the Derek Carr thing obviously was handled in a way that was more acrimonious, acrimonious side. I think they maybe would have been okay keeping Jared Stiddam. He got out of there and didn't show any interest of staying. And there's been a lot of talk about the New England way and McDaniels working everybody hard and all of that. This guy, Josh Jacobs, is important to them to me. When I've got Jimmy Garapolo and you're trying to keep him on the field, I think he's a different back. I think he's a differentiating back like you said.

So is the treatment of him just business? Well, I think the spotlight is on them. We will see if they are all business and not pro player at all. I do think in most cases the locker room is, they understand what's going on. I think in this case, because the culture change in Vegas since McDaniel got there hasn't been smooth, like you mentioned. I don't think we've turned a corner in that everybody's bought in yet. I do think a deal like this could help a buy-in. He's not just a back.

And in New England, they never paid a back. They had four or five every year. It seemed like they just next guy up. I do think there are time that you have to show your locker room that, hey, if you lead the league in rushing, we're going to try to take care of it. And this guy was their bell cow, and he would help Garoppolo. So there are many more reasons for them to bend a little bit and try to pay him. Now, we all know they can't pay him more than the franchise tag this year.

But a deal like the Giants presented to Barclay made sense to him. I'm assuming that they would do the same thing for Jacobs. I don't know. I don't think it gets them in trouble in a precedent-setting move that's going to come back to buy them in the butt later. I just don't see that. Everybody, if they could make a deal similar to this. And you said, you mentioned the John Merrick card with the Giants. Is there a Mark Davis card, right?

I know he's got WNBA stuff he's interested in too, but that would be interesting to me to see if they can just get him in there. He's going to be there. Daniels. How about the GM? You know, how about they play a card of, hey, we love our players. We're going to try to take care of them as much as we can. They are important to us. They're not just another seat.

You know, and sometimes that was always the criticism in New England. They got rid of players left and right. And I said for years that because there, he made things well. Well, guess what? They don't have Tom Brady in Vegas. He's a minority owner. He's not coming out in his uniform to play. So I think they have to acquiesce a little bit to players more so than they did in New England.

That's all I'm saying. Yes, absolutely. Mark Murphy. By the way, Aaron Rogers gone from the Packers. they don't have to put up with Aaron talking every week on the Maccafee show and all of that. But Mark Murphy is probably one of the more quoted team president types, you would have to say. And so I thought I'd get your thoughts on what he said match. I think you're just looking at bear.

I think you're just trying to get me. I'm poking the bear. I know. Well, because typically the GM doesn't like to have the boss man, you know, talking football stuff about it. Mark Murphy did play in the NFL. Yeah, I understand. I can. But first off, he gave the timeline on Jordan Love's e-vow.

Now, remember, he talks to shareholders every year, and so some of these comments can be pulled from a thing like that. And I guess I'm fine with a discussion with the shareholders, whatever. It's a unique place in Green Bay. But to give a timeline for evaluation of Jordan Love, he said, I'm comparing it a little bit to Aaron's first year as a starter. Yeah, I'd say at least half a season to know. And I think even though we ended up with the losing record that year,

which is Rogers' first year as a starter 08. We saw enough of Aaron to know we had something special. Made a couple other comments. Defended his GM. Talked about the defense. Talked about offensive style, what he was anticipating, you know,

how it might be a strong running game and play auction off of that. I'll poke you a little bit, Randy. What do you have, all harmless? You okay? Well, I think it is all harmless. I think you're right.

And the Packers are, structure different. They have these shareholder meetings. They are held to a different standard. I get it. Maybe some of this stuff has to be part of his job. But you're also correct in that you wouldn't see this around the league. I don't think you'd see the 31 team presidents or how many have them come out with a state of the football side like this. So it is unique. I've thought all along that Mike Murphy is kind of behind the scenes pulling the strings most of time anyway. And I love Brian. Brian's great. But I think Brian also perfect for Mark. Mark, Mark. because he has been going to go he has no you know he's not going to get his feelings hurt he he I just think Mike Murphy loves the role he attends practice every day I've been to their practices and then like I say he's probably a good fit for Brian Gutikus didn't I'm referring to so I understand they're they're different in Green Bay and maybe this is a one-time deal maybe you won't hear about him talk about these football things later on I don't think it benefits a team to have three team spokesmen.

I mean, I always tried to, as a GM, tried to stay out of any of this stuff once the season started and made the head coach our guy. I would have loved to have had Matt Lafleur go speak to on this stuff to that group instead of Mark Murphy. Maybe I'm just too old school. Well, we've talked about, and I think you alluded to in your concerns column on the NFC North about, you know, this season will be a test for, for Matt LaFleur and just his leadership through tough time because so much of that, you know, has fallen on Rogers or he's been the focus

of it. I would anticipate, you know, a lot smoother sailing without the Rogers distraction stuff, right? Where. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. So I think it's going to be a little bit more of a conventional situation, but I will definitely be watching to see how LaFleur handles it. And then, like you said, you know, we've seen Murphy likes to kind of talk and have his opinion be made. And so much of that has been regarding Rogers. But to me, it'll be interesting just to kind of see how Matt Lafleur does or doesn't grow into the void, created by Rogers leaving, and then how that's handled, reacted to by Murphy. I think it's a new era.

It'll be a little different. No doubt. I do think the one point is valid in that he has now put a timeline on Jordan Love that I didn't feel like need to be done at all. I got news for you. Jordan Love's going to be ready when he's ready. And it's not like we have a recipe for how many games or how long it's going to take. I know they've seen him every day. I get it. They know more than all the rest of us. But I would surely not box him in with a time frame that we get to week eight. Now what's going to happen? Well, everybody's going to say, is he ready yet or not? That's exactly right. Yeah, I don't think why that need to be

brought up. The head coach has to deal with that when he's at the podium in week nine. hey, three rough games here for Jordan. I mean, I remember when Bruce Ariens was with Arizona, he said it takes at least half a season to judge a quarterback in a new offense or things like that. That's fine. He's the guy teaching the offense. So he can put his own timetable on it if he wants, and then he can change it later, which Bruce Ariens would.

He would have no problem doing that. You want to challenge him? He'll challenge you right back. But it may be more than eight or nine games for whatever reason. They may need to look at him for the whole year or he may not look good for the first half of the year. He may not look good all year. He may not look good all year. He may not be.

Trust me. Yeah. I just don't know why you put your quarterback on that stage, you know. Yeah, because I think it's just a casual. It's the casualness of Mark Murphy, just kind of saying what comes to his mind and not really worrying about it. And there's not a, they don't have the traditional hierarchy of accountability. There's no team owner who's going to say, hey, Mark, what are you doing? Or whatever.

And like you said, Goudicouce background guy, not a big ego guy. He's not going to, he's just going to go to work, right? And Lafleur is pretty understated too, right? So, yeah. You know. Yep, yep, interesting to me. We'll see. You got eight and a half games there, Jordan Loves.

They better be good, wink, wink, wink. Cowboys re-signed or extended Trayvon Diggs five years, $97 million. Corner had three picks as a rookie, 11, second year, three last year. kind of was a gambler for a while there. Whenever they do a big deal, I'm always, you know, you sort of think, okay, is this Jerry Jones proving he was right on taking a pick? It's a little bit of a cynical move. But what do you think of Diggs? What do you think of doing a deal with him too early?

You okay? You love it? Like it? Don't like it? Well, I agree with you. I think they've been 50-50 on whether they, and they can't wait to pay their own guys. I think they've overpaid several before they should have or even needed to. I mean, I think this kid's a good player.

I think there are ups and downs with this game. I do think he gambles, like you said. I think everybody would like to see his play even out. But it's hard to not be cynical on cowboy moves just because of Jerry's nature and the fact that we all know that any publicity is good for the cowboys. So you always kind of take it with a grain of salt. And it could be that Javon Diggs is worth $20 million a year. I don't know.

I mean, do we have to take him to that level right now? It could have played out a little bit, but maybe they got such crazy cap numbers and low that it doesn't matter. I haven't seen the structure of the deal yet. I kind of like their team this year. We'll see. Yeah, I don't doubt it. I'm fine with it.

So, yeah, we'll see. But that's the Bears. A couple letters. Cole Comet got done with Chicago. Texans re-signed Titus Howard. Giants extended Andrew Thomas. there's always business right before camp, isn't there? Randy, you want to get some of these guys done that maybe are your own guys, you're rewarding them, and it's just time, right?

Well, the motivation also is from the player side. If I'm a player, I'm not lacing up my shoes. If I've got $70 million at stake of me walking out there and some rookie banging me in the knee, you know? Yeah. So the timing is right. And it really, it's not a hard deadline, but it's a deadline when I'm going to put on the pads to go out there. I want to have my business taken care of. So yes, I think it's always been a window of opportunity for both sides. And it seems like this year teams and players both are taking advantage of it. I frankly like to see it as a whole.

I like to see players get paid and not be silly in regard to just taking risks left and right. I think players nowadays take too many risks and leave money on the table instead of they let their ego get involved or their agency go get involved. need to take deals, in my opinion, more like this before they put themselves in harm's way because of the physicality, because of the injury factor. I just think we get away from that nowadays. It's easy to say, oh, I'm not taking that. I'll just play it out. Well, okay.

It used to be you didn't ever do that. Do teams and players kind of say, hey, once camp starts, you know, if you want to do a deal, we're doing it now, does that, is there a spirit to that to where, hey, you won't wait until after the season, but this is our window, or no, you would be fine doing a deal whenever? I think it depends on the player, Mike. I really do. And it depends on his agent and the trust you have in him. Nobody wants to negotiate and have it become public after the season starts.

So if you have a good trust factor and a good open dialogue with a representative and understand that it will stay behind closed doors, it's not going to be a distraction. All teams want is for they're not to be distractions. I would have no problem talking contract and negotiating during the season if I knew it wasn't going to be a distraction to one, the team and to the player. Certain players, you know, can handle business. There were some guys that I've witnessed over my time that were really bad at the business side. And I could tell them their body language if the deal was going right, if the negotiations were going right, if they were crying about not getting this or that. Even though they didn't say publicly, I could see it on a day-to-day basis.

I wouldn't want to make a deal with those guys once the season started. I would put those to bed early if we were going to make a deal and not make it, then we're going to talk next season. So you have to judge each individual and the representation that comes with him, in my opinion. Oh, one last signing I wanted to ask you about was the CX re-signed Echaninoosa to a three-year, $59 million deal. And one of the reasons I wanted to ask you was he came into the league second round pick, 2018 with the Chargers. You were with the Chargers. I believe that was your last year with the Chargers.

So for Seattle, nine and a half sacks, 17 games last season, what do you think of him and the signing? I was just curious as they get going in camp this week. Yeah, I think it's really a good deal for both sides. I think he's proved that he can play. I think it's an example for our listeners and fans to realize that fit does matter. I think the position that Pete Carroll and defense staff had put him in allowed him to finally succeed as a player for whatever reason it just didn't click for him with

the Chargers he didn't put up these kind of numbers and fit matters and we talk about it and i think listeners and fans poo-poo it it trust me this is a great example of it he wasn't going to get this money from the chargers it didn't fit well for him but he can go somewhere else be used in a different manner coaching matters just trust me coaching matters and schemes matter and this is an example of a kid who was successful was average at one place and then really successful somewhere else getting rewarded. It's just the way this game is. And I think just another example of how much coaching matters and the fit matters. Well, you look at it when he's drafted in 2018 by the Chargers, Anthony Lynn is the head coach of the team and Gus Bradley as team is quarter now. Of course,

Gus Bradley is very much tied in with Pete Carroll. Sometimes a player just develops over time. But I think that was interesting, the fit component of it. And you were even talking about that with the chargers as they're currently set up some of the fit issues. So nice for Nuo. He was a player that no one was really talking about a couple years ago and would have probably never thought

you're going to get a $59 million deal, but good for him. Wow, the time's flown here, Randy. We are rolling. In fact, by the way, we made it a, Randy and I came to a negotiated agreement beforehand that because we had so many nuggets from his column and stuff,

there's no GM notebook this week. We pre-rated it even before we got going. Usually I wait until the show to steal your notes, but GM Notebook will be back next week. I just wanted to close with just a couple of utter training camp thoughts that we or you might have going in. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, in doing my little tour around the league,

I watched a ton of film, Mike, and there's a couple teams that I don't think are getting enough glove. one is particularly in Jacksonville. I'm really bullish on Jacksonville. I was impressed when I watched the defensive film. They have a lot of guys that are hard to block. I mean, a lot of guys. And whether it's Devin Lloyd at linebacker or Josh Allen at one end

and the other kid, what the Georgia kid was first picking the draft last year, who they were criticized in taking. He's really good. Yeah, no, no, you liked him. liked him a lot. I liked him a lot. And I like him a lot this year, kind of even as a sleeper for defensive player. Trayvon Walker is who you're talking about number 44.

Yeah. I mean, when I watch the film, this guy, they can't, people can't block him. I'm just saying. So I know Michael Parsons is everybody's favorite to win defensive player of the year or one of the Bosa brothers or whatever. But if you could get some good odds on this kid, I think he's up for big things this year and almost a dominating type performance in some games last year. So I just felt like the, the Jaguars making.

strides on offense, the quarterback finally got better. They got out of the Urban Meyer shadow. Dan Peterson has been a good fit for them, and they've done a nice job of collecting players now that are all coming together more so than in the past. So I was really bullish on Jacksonville. Yeah, I think one of your concerns there for Jacksonville, though, was, hey, is this defensive coordinator going to get the most out of that this year? And that's kind of been a little bit of a lingering thing in the back of my mind, you know,

you know, for them. It's Mike Caldwell is their defensive coordinator. I think it's kind of, you know, it's always quiet with Jacksonville because it's not like it's a huge media market with a million people covering them. But I think that's just sort of a quiet story that in this year. There's high expectations for this team. It's probably going to be a pretty good year for the Jaguars, but they really got to make sure they're getting the most out of that talent on defense to really get over the top, right?

Yeah, no doubt. I think that's the one question I have is how we're going to use all this. stuff. I saw enough late in the season last year to know they have really good talent. Yeah. And rare, rare numbers of players that can make plays. Now it's about utilizing them. And I think you're right. It's going to fall on the defense coordinator. My Paul and want to put it all together. Hey, we'll see. That's the fun of it, right? It's just an interesting place. Yeah. It's just so interesting to me how this all came together. Obviously, the Urban Meyer thing was debacle, but kind of sitting in the background was Trent

bulky this whole time, you know? And, and, uh, But, you know, he's of that sort of Parcell's mantra of the, you know, the get a bunch of big guys. And I know you've talked about that too. You know, and they've kind of got that, right? They're starting to put together a team that looks pretty strong. So the other thing that I, so one thing I flagged that we didn't talk about, but there was a little headline on it today was, did you see Tyreek Hill resolved that kind of assault thing where he slapped some guy at a marina who worked in a marina? I just filed that away in the back of my mind. And maybe it's no big deal.

I'm sure it was a big deal to the guy who got slapped. It would be kind of jarring. Wouldn't it kind of be jarring? Just get slapped in the back of your head by Tyree Kill. I prefer not to happen. But yeah, I hear you. Yeah, most of us go through. You don't have to worry about getting slapped in the head.

But we know how important Tyreek Hill is to the dolphins. Way more important. He's a way bigger part of Tuah's success than he was to Mahomes' success, right? I mean, Mahomes read, they're going to adjust. Mahomes can do it all. they can be in a drop-back offense. He can create Tua really needs

Tyreek Hill and obviously they have Jalen Waddle as well. But I just didn't like that incident. And I know when they signed Tyreek Hill and paid him a ton of money to come to Miami, I kind of went,

you know, and it's been great. It's been great so far on the field. He's a tremendous player. I don't know what happened in this little incident. But I think I thought of shelf life when they signed them.

And so this just kind of goes into the back of my mind and a file in a big year for them. Maybe it's nothing. But not good. Well, yeah, I hear you. It's not good. And believe me, there are some other things in that past that had led to even end up when Kansas City got him. There were others that weren't willing to take the risks either. So there are issues there.

Yeah, you pay somebody this kind of money. and a simple slap in the back of the head cost them a game or two suspension. It's not a good trend, that's for sure. So maybe that doesn't happen, but you're right. When you write checks for $100 million, it makes you nervous, and this is why. Yeah, that was just one that not a huge headline.

He's probably going to, you know, he's at camp, but just for a team with a lot on the line, that one just stuck with me a little bit. And hopefully, that's it. It goes away, and he has a great season. We never have that sort of thing again, but there is a record there. There is a history, like we said. And I think that's one of the reasons Kansas City wasn't so excited about paying him on the huge contract at this point in his career.

So we'll see how that goes. Randy, welcome back. It's good to be back. Yeah, I enjoyed a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to already next week. I know next week. I just booked a couple training camp trips. So who knows where you'll get me from.

I think I'm still home next week. But after that, we'll see. I hope to join you on a couple of those training camp trips somewhere down the road. I'm looking forward to it. Absolutely. Well, hey, everybody, thanks for coming along this week. Mike Sando on Twitter at Sando NFL. Randy Mueller there at Randy Mueller underscore.

We're both on the athletic, on the athletic app. We'll talk to you next week. This was the athletic football show.