The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Football GM: NFL hiring practices under federal scrutiny, Mueller's top RBs & TEs in the draft & more

Episode Date: April 9, 2022

The NFL's hiring practices again came under fire this week as former head coach Mike Mularkey fanned the flames with his comments regarding the Rooney Rule. Now NY's Attorney General is considering opening an investigation. Former GM Randy Mueller and our own Mike Sando bring their unique insight to the subject after they break down Randy's favorite RBs and TEs coming out in the 2022 NFL Draft. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome everybody to Season 2, Episode 34 of the Football GM podcast right here on the Athletic Football Show every Saturday, not only during the NFL season, but during the real fun NFL season, which is the off season where we're at right now, a couple weeks before the draft. I am Mike Sandoz, Senior writer for the Athletic, along with the general manager. Good morning, Mr. Randy Mueller. Michael, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing well. I guess it's afternoon. whatever. It doesn't matter. The team guys probably have no idea. They've been in a dark room probably for the last week or two. What before we get into, we're going to, we're going to rank Randy's running backs and tight ends in the draft today. We're going to hit some other news

and notes around the league, including the latest on the lawsuit with Brian Flores and the situation with the audio that came out of Mike Malarkey through the Titans process. We'll get to that. But Randy, you've been in the, what, 35 years in the league. So this time here, a couple weeks before the draft. What's everybody been doing? I know we got pro days. We got what? What, what happens? Yeah, I think right now the pro days are starting to wind down a little bit. There are some teams that haven't got all the input of the pro days and daily of their coaching staff, either quite yet. I don't think, I think you've got to guard a little bit now against having too much time on your hands because you don't want to have a bunch of cards all of a sudden start moving rows and

moving around on your draft board. That was always something that I was deathly against. We're not going to start moving people around all over the place now because one opinion got, changed or one coach saw this, but you have to guard against that because sometimes the loudest voice in the room thinks they're right all the time. And that comes up probably between now and the draft more than any other time because everybody's in a little bit of a panic, right? They like their guys. They want to get their guys up. And I used to work for a group that one of their instructive values was it, and you tell me if you agree with this, Mike, I'm trying to get the verbiage right. They said, it's your fault if you don't get your guys drafted. Wow. And that never made

sense to me. It actually made the hair stand up on the back of my head because it's never about your scout or your area or anybody getting their guys drafted. That's the epitome of the opposite of what I wanted to do. And that used to fry me when I would hear that. I want to get it right. And usually the truth is in the middle. So I want to build consensus and hear everybody's point of view, I don't want a particular scout in an area that speaks the loudest, all of a sudden get all his guys drafted. That's not even at all. He wants all the Western region guys to get going. You're like, no, no, no, what if the guy from Southwest Texas State is better? We want him, right? That's exactly right. And that should be our goal. But it just goes to show how many different

philosophies are at work around the league. Everybody sees the drafting process slightly different. And sometimes the differences are extreme. And that used to frustrate the heck out of me sometimes, because I'm always about the team and all of us being heard, not the carnival barkers or the salesman. You know, that's not part of it at all. I got a couple ones for you on that. So we always hear, hey, this guy's climbing up draft boards, right? Translation, Mueller, what does that mean?

Total BS. I mean, there's no way. If they are, they're doing injustice to their draft process and the whole last 12 months. If you let something like this happen. And we'll talk about a couple of these things because I know for a fact there are players, I've seen it, but I know from this year in particular, some players that were graded high by teams now have gone to a pro day that maybe was attended by a scout

or a coach, it really doesn't matter, and didn't do well at his pro day. They didn't go to the combine, or he went to the combine and didn't run, and then all of a sudden he runs at his pro day because he's a little healthier. But now we're going to ding this guy for everything he does at a pro day in shorts and t-shirts running around. That stuff used to drive me crazy as well. So you have all kinds of philosophies. If I really like a guy on tape and I have zero questions about him, I hope he goes and runs bad at his pro day. Because then everybody that's weak will not pick him and they'll drop him down in their process. So there's just a lot of different mindsets, a lot of different philosophies, a lot of different confidence levels, so to speak.

And that's part of, I guess, leading, but it's different for every team. So what if you need, let's just say your team needed a question. quarterback this year. Doesn't that, of fact, I was talking to a coach about this, that idea then, do people then like bend what they think about the prospects to make it more palatable to draft a guy where you're at? Do you think that happens to where, hey, we're picking 14th. We need a quarterback. There's, we don't really, there's probably not one that we would grade that high, but by the end of the thing, dang it, he was the highest guy on our board. Does that happen? 100%. It happens all the time. It really happens sometimes with, I talked a little bit about what

you've got to guard against with scouts, but you have to guard against it with coaches, too, because coaches want their guys. They want you to spend a second round pick on a tied in because that's their view of the world. You know, it's totally different. So you've got to watch. You've got to, again, evaluate the evaluators and take a step back from 30,000 feet. And that's why I said, and you asked me, I think when we initially said the difference between evaluators and team builders, there is a big difference because the team builder has that look

from 30,000 feet. The evaluators, and you see it all the time, especially in the media world, where an evaluator looks at a specific player and just puts him where he thinks his value is off the chart, but that may not be valuable to the total team build. That may not, we may not draft him in a spot that makes sense, but that's okay. You've got to realize that we have a bigger cause than making your sequence list correct, if that makes sense. Yeah, you don't have to say where you're at or disclose if you don't want to. So what's an example of a player that suddenly you showed up on the draft day and the guy was way higher than you thought? Or do you remember anything like that with a specific player?

Well, I don't know about specifics, but there was a time I spent with one organization where we as scouts or not the boss. Let me just say that. We would laugh when we'd come in the morning and the cards had been moved around. And we used to have a little saying, we'd say, well, I guess we had another all-star game last night, huh? Yeah. Because there's no more film to watch. we've already evaluated everybody. So the scouts would laugh at each other and say, yeah, see, we had another senior bowl

last night or another blue-gray game or something like that. So the cards got moved around, and that just shows that, hey, we all notice. But there might be a valid reason for it, too. So you've got to kind of take a step back as you see things through a worm's eye and understand that the decision makers see it through the bird's eye. Yep, absolutely. Well, let's launch into our continuing series last. week we talked about the wide receivers and why you liked certain ones. I think Chris

Alave was number one. You had the two Ohio State guys up there. People can check that out obviously on last week's podcast. We're going to do running backs and tight ends today. And I've actually, I've got the list here of who you've got. But let's just start with running backs. Randy, I'll leave the floor to you. What do you value in the position? And, you know, we hear a lot about running backs, frankly. I mean, should you take one? early, you know, no, you should never pay one. Those are all things I guess we could get into if we wanted to. But for you, what's a great back? Yeah, I think you have to start with the criteria and what you're looking for. And I agree with those points that you've made come from different

parts of your building, especially, you know, cap guys or other people that chime in to say, hey, we can't ever give a running back that much value because we're not going to be able to afford him on a second contract and things like that. But my thinking is when you set the criteria for running back, you're looking for two things. You're either looking for a guy who can do everything and play on third downs and have explosive athleticism to allow you to score from anywhere, or you're looking for a skill set specifically that you get from another player that you fit in to the skills that you don't have on your team. So in other words, a spot player or a full-time player. That's the big delineation you have to make.

And I think if you can divide them up into different buckets to start with, you have a chance to really line them up in a valued way, which makes some sense to everybody. Yeah, and I would think for our purposes here, we're talking about the do-it-all guy, because we're going to rank running backs. We're talking about somebody you would actually take earlier, right? You would, in general, right? You wouldn't take a spot back necessarily. If you're going to rank your top five running backs, there wouldn't never be a spot back in there,

would there? No, there wouldn't. But there might only be one or two, three downbacks. So in a particular draft, and I think in this particular draft here, we start to fill specific needs after about three guys. So it just happens to be that's the way it works. You're not going to find it. Here's the guys I've drafted. Amon Green, third down back, first, second and third down back could do it all.

Deuce McAllister, first, second, third down back. Those are guys that can carry the mail. They can play on passing downs. They can pass block. That's the criteria. for if you're going to draft one in the first round. There was one last year, uh,

Najee Harris, right? With the steers, he was only, only back. And some thought maybe he wasn't quite the third down back as, as was needed to be valued there. But I think he turned out to be pretty good in all three,

all three downs and in both phases the game. So for my money, the best one I saw this year for, for what I've seen, and I'm going to stress this, I'm not a scout. So I'm not unearthing guys at Western Colorado's state like Kyle Echler. I'm not. I'm just looking at the consensus from some of the people around

the league to come up with six or seven names and then put them in order. So that's, so you looked at, you looked at kind of the mainstream backs. Yes. Yes. So how many, how many backs did you end up probably looking at? Oh, I think there's six or seven. You know, maybe there's there's eight or nine, but there's the bottom of that list, I don't, you know, I don't consider. I would consider these guys all in the first three rounds at some point. That's my opinion. Right. But to get this list, did you have to look at 20 or You have to look at 10. Oh, I probably looked at 15. Yeah.

Yeah. Probably twice as many to narrow it down to this. Yeah. So I'm very, go ahead and unveil your number one guy. Well, for my money, and it's funny because we went through receivers last week and there was two at the same school, right? Two Ohio State guys. Yeah. There's two running backs at Georgia this week that ended up being the two highest guys for me, both rotational guys because of how good they are and the skills that they have.

The kid that I came out on top with the guys I looked at was Zemir White from Georgia. He's just under six foot tall. He's 215 pounds. He runs 4-4. But here's the issue. And I'll talk about some of the specifics. He's going to have two ACL surgeries before he ever takes a snap in the NFL. So that's another thing that when we as outsiders look at tape and evaluate on film, we don't have the medical information.

We don't have the character information that NFL teams do. So to get hot and bothered because they don't see them exactly like we do is a waste of oxygen because they have more information in us. Plus there's eight or ten opinions in every scout's room, every team's room. So they can build a consensus. These evaluations that we're talking about are really a one-man show. It's just what I see on tape, which would be about a fifth of the information in a normal draft room. Now, that being said, you do know that he's had these ACLs. But we've seen him shoot, Frank Gore had a couple.

I'm not disregarding. No, I'm just saying you're going to have to check some boxes before you're okay with this. And what I noticed is, Randy, because I love to just compare how people see them. So I went through other, you know, just kind of the media general managers who are doing these things, you know, whether it was Mel Kiper or Dane Brueger or the Athletic or whatever. I don't see Zemir White in the top five for him. So I love that. So let's talk a little bit more than about him and why him and who do you compare him to. I think the thing for me is I want to find, and this is in the criteria of what I'm looking for,

I want to find a guy that gives me the feeling when he gets the ball in his hands that we might score. And that's a hard one to define on paper. I found it with Amon Green. I thought we had it with Deuce McAllister. Those kind of guys, when they get the, the ball, you kind of, a little skip in your breath, you know, where you, whoops, he might go. He might not, but he might. And so I felt like that when I watched Samir White. You never know watching tape that this guy had two ACLs. He runs hard inside. He's got juice through the hole.

Outside, he has speed to turn the corner. He just plays really fast and has a little top-in gear shift once he gets in the secondary. He can run away from tacklers. But the thing I really loved about him is this pad level in traffic. He has balance. He breaks arm tackles. He sets up arm tackles on instincts and vision. And he makes people miss, both in line and in space. He's just a really hard guy for a single tackler to get on the ground. But the other thing that kind of set him apart for me is a really good route runner. He can create separation, puts his foot in the ground. You know, he can run an angle route, which linebackers are always struggling to cover. But he finds it with the body control of kind of a receiver in that he can set him up to gain this separation.

And he's a willing and capable pass blocker as well. So every year, you know, you don't always find the guys that can contribute on passing downs, on running downs, you know, blocking, catching. I thought his hands were excellent. He just gave me that feeling that he might be able to score touchdown every time he got the ball. So I had him at the top. Yep. And you had James Cook next to his teammate ahead of Iowa State Breeze Hall, who is who may be one or two on a lot of the other lists that I've seen. So why why Cook ahead of him and why Cook not quite as high as his teammate? I think Cook for me, and it's a different style. And that's probably why Kirby Smart at Georgia played both these guys and rotated and they're different styles. Cook for me is a more

upright runner. And he was the senior there. So I mean, we've all been around programs where seniors get rewarded for being there and playing. You know, and so this this guy, probably played a lot because he had been there and paid his dues, but a totally different style. This guy's kind of a one-cut slasher. He runs a little bit upright, not really powerful behind his pads like White was, but he's very nifty footed. And he has a north-south acceleration to him that kind of reminded me a little bit of Deuce McAllister, a little bit of an upright runner, like I said, but that's going to cost him running. He's not a downhill guy between the tackle. So the best thing that James Cook did for me was he, in the passing game, he caught the ball and made people

people miss. He can get upfield. He ran away from defenders after he has the ball in his hand. So I like the way he catches the ball. He's got soft hands. He can catch balls that aren't specifically on target. So I thought there's a chance that this kid could be in every down back. He carried the ball a lot and has a lot of protection in both the passing game and the running game. So he runs 4-4-5. I didn't think he was the style that I maybe seek. But I think someone will see him a little bit like they saw, Naji Harris in Pittsburgh last year. So Brace Hall was my third guy. And this was fascinating for me. So I looked at the tape before I looked up anything else on Brice Hall. They didn't investigate in or anything. So I saw a guy who has run a lot, has been run a lot. They ride him.

He's in every downback at Iowa State. He's a downhill workhorse volume type carrier. But the one thing he's not from my mind, he's not explosive on the field. He's a traditional body lean pad level guy that breaks some arm tackles, but he kind of picks and slides with some natural vision. He just doesn't run away from anybody or make you say, wow, he's going to go. He's not like that. He's going to grind out some yards, grind it out.

But, and then I went back after I looked at the tape and looked at the numbers that he tested. He tested to a 40 time of 438. He had a 40-inch vertical jump. These are explosive numbers, right? But I just never saw that equate on film. So that's a hard one for scouts. It's a hard one for evaluators. I always err on the side of what I saw on film.

So I'm going to take that over a workout, or I'm going to take that over these numbers that we all run around the spring and try to collect. So I just didn't see that same explosive timed workout stuff when I saw him on tape. Now, he had 36 catches. He ran the ball 253 times. I mean, this guy's, he's used in every single way at Iowa State.

But I just saw him more as a grinder who lacked any big playability. And I was worried about him bringing anything to the table other than just being a ball carrier. So nothing really jumped out at me about this kid. Yes. And let's just, as we reset this when we have Zemir White, we have James Coke, we have briefsfall. In your mind, again, just off the film you've watched, not the first. investigation you would do if you were an organization. But do you have a feel for, you know, how you would grade them or what round or is there any sort of a reference point we could put on

these guys to say how much you like them in the context of an entire draft, not just in the context of each other? Yeah, I think it's a comfort level for me. And I can't speak for other teams. I can only state my comfort zone where I would feel comfortable with him. And I don't think I could feel comfortable taking briefs in the first round. There's just not enough juice there. There's not enough big playability there. So I think he's probably for me more of a second or third round type back. I'd have no problem with the first kid from Georgia Zemir White because I see the speed. I see the explosiveness. I see a three down back. And some of the skill sets that I'm describing obviously determine the value of when you would take a guy. You started the conversation by saying we're

not going to take spot players probably through the first three rounds. Right. So I think all three of these guys are more than spot players. So I would consider them in the first three rounds for sure and in the order that I've mentioned. The other thing you got to set up is the schemes that they're going into, the criteria and the scheme specific fits of certain backs are going to make them more valuable to some teams than others.

Yep. Now you have Brian Robinson number four on your list. And I don't see him in the top fives of some of these, you know, other ones in media. So why do you like him? And how much do you really like him? Well, I like him. But here's the point. I have a fourth round grade on him.

So that's how quick the backs disappeared for me. Gotcha. And they disappear because they're one-trick ponies or they're undersized or they don't play with any speed and explosion. So there's just not that many guys. But I think that's every year the error of, and it's not really an error, the difference is in media projections and NFL inside building projections are there's a lot less players in NFL eyes than there are in, and I'll use Mel for an example or Todd or these other guys. There's not that many players. So they tend to err on the side of there's, you know, might be 10 running backs this year. Well, really in the NFL setup, there might be four.

on any given year, if that makes any sense. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you had Robinson next. I thought he's similar to cook. He's just a little slower a foot. He's a bit of a slasher. I worry a little bit about these slasters

when I say they can make one cut and then hit the hole. And if they run upright, I worry about their durability because that's a big target. They've given their exposure to their chest and their hip area to defenders to really knock them back. So I worry about their durability, because they're going to take some hits because they're not running behind their pads.

And Brian Robinson's a little bit like that. He's got really good north-south acceleration. He's slightly straight-lined, though. But he has good feet as a route runner. He catches. He'll block. He's just not dynamic. And if I'm going to pick a guy high as a running back,

he better have some dynamic skill sets that, like I said, it's not only going to keep him on the field for three downs, but he's got to be able to bring something to the table where we're going to have some long runs and we're going to score from way out if we're going to have this guy on the field on third downs. So you have two guys at number five. Kenneth Walker, Michigan State, Jerry and Ely,

well, and listen, Walker's, I've seen him listed one or two in other people's list. Why, five? And if you had a fourth round grade on Brian Robinson, you must have Kenneth Walker lower than that, right? Yeah, right in the same range. I would have them both in the third round, late third, early fourth. I think the deal with Walker is he was talked about early on as a Heisman candidate, played at Michigan State. I hate to say it, but they get a lot of press, right?

People have known about him forever. He's a small guy for me. Five-nine, I struggle with him. Yeah, he's 210 pounds, but he's a smallish guy who would rather bounce outside than run inside. He has quickness. He evades people. He's also got speed to turn a corner and run away from people.

And that sudden and bounce laterally make tackles miss him. I like his speed. I just think he's going to be his vision's a little inconsistent between the tackles and he's a little short so he can hide, but I just don't see him as an every down guy because of that. His running style isn't one that you'd say, we can give this guy the ball, you know, 25 times. He kind of reminded me of, I don't know if you remember,

Javad Best from Cal a couple years back. That's kind of his style for me. He can really make sharp cuts in the secondary once he gets in the secondary. But as a smaller guy, I just didn't think he would be a full-time ball carrier at our league. Kind of reminded me of, like I said, Javid Best, maybe even, you know, a little bit like Clyde Edwards, Hilaire.

But, you know, his lower body, Hilaire sets him apart. And I didn't see that with Kenneth Walker. The guy I put alongside of him is the Ole Miss Kid. And you mentioned it, Jerry on Ely. Yeah. And again, I'm a, maybe I'm a sucker for this. But when I see a guy that's faster than everybody else and plays faster on tape, I tend to put those guys higher on the list, regardless of how he measures and what he does.

And this kid played really fast to me. I think his 40 time was 4-5-2 or something like that. But when I watch old miss tape, and I watch a lot of it because I was watching Matt Corral as well, this guy seemed like the fastest guy in the field to me. They would give him the ball in one back sets and he would make people miss. He'd make runs out of nothing. He can catch. He was a hard guy to really bring down.

And in his case, he really was sudden and elusive. So I liked him probably a little more than Walker, but I could see either one of these guys being spot players. I think they're both going to struggle because the best thing they do would be, you'd just say, oh, he's a third downback. There's no third downback that unless he can block. And there's both so small that pass protection is going to be the biggest thing they have to overcome. That really determines how early rookie running backs get on the field is how they can handle past protections and how they can hold up against most. most of the time, bigger blitzing linebackers. So that's going to be a struggle for those two guys.

Before we hit the tight ends, we mentioned that you drafted Amman Green in Seattle. Was there a story of the drafting him? Was it easy? Did you guys argue? Did somebody want somebody else? Or did it just float with the highest guy on the board? And it was straightforward. No, it was actually piecing together a bunch of stuff because at Nebraska,

and that's where he played, they didn't throw the ball much. And they didn't throw it to backs at all. And we could see the speed. We could see the explosion. It's almost like they ran a little. version of the veer. So he was always running outside, you know, and catching pitches and running around the corner. But we really didn't know if he could catch. And our running back coach at the time, Dennis was, Dennis Erickson was the head coach, but we sent Tim Lepano, our running

back coach to Nebraska just to work him out and find out if he could catch. And he passed it. We videoed it. We all came back and said, wow, this guy's no problem catching the ball. In fact, he's got really good hands. But we kind of had to piece it together. But having said that, we got him in the third round. And I to this day think he lasted that long because not everybody else had the same confidence level in his ability to catch and run routes as we did. So it ended up, you know, he's the, I hate to say this, but I think he's still the leading Russia in the history of the Green Bay Packers. Their franchise. That's unbelievable. I think he is too. I mean, they have a little history there last time I checked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He should have been in Seattle except

a certain coach came in and one of someone else. That's a different story for another day. Let me just tell you one thing about that, and this isn't to make fun of anything. But when I went to New Orleans after Ammon's first year, first or second year, I think he had been in the league two years. And I went to New Orleans as their GM, so I left, obviously, and Mike Holman was a Seahawks coach. And I knew that Mike was kind of lukewarm on him because he used to fumble a little bit. He'd fumble a kickoff. Yeah, he did early. Yeah.

And so because Mike always used to complain, hey, can you get him to hang on to the ball? He would make fun of me because he was Mike. Homegren? That's it. It's fatal. Oh, yeah. It was a death sentence. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. sense. So when I got there, I kind of had the feeling that he might be on the move at some point. So I remember talking with Mike and saying, Mike, if you ever decide you want to move this guy, you know, he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll call you, I'll call you, I'll call you. Like three weeks later, how I read on the internet or something that they trade him to Green Bay as part of, I was sick. I was physically sick to my stomach when I read that, that we didn't get him. And guess what? We ended up drafting Deuce McAllister like three months later in the draft.

So if, but if you would have acquired Armand, you probably don't pick Deuce McAllister, right? We'd have had no need to pick him. Yeah. We already had Ricky Williams. People already thought it was crazy enough. Did Holmgren ever explain why you didn't give you a crack? No, I never talked to him about it. But I don't know.

Maybe he was part of some other deal, you know, obviously he came from Green Bay, so he had relations there, and I understand that. But I was sick to my stomach. Yeah. Those coach things about a fumble or thing. I remember Holmgren used to tell a story that like Bill Walsh never did the shotgun because they used it one time and it was a bad snap. And I'm like, wait a minute, you're going to, that's going to be enough for you to throw out an entire component of, and it probably wasn't just that simple.

But it could be for the coach that you just hold on an hang ball or whatever. So those are our running backs to recap Zemir White, James Cook, Bruce Hall, Brian Robinson, then a tie Kenneth Walker and then the surprise from Ole Miss, Jerry and Ely. Let's get into tight ends. And it's funny, you know, when I first started covering. the NFL, tight end was an offensive tackle. They were 280 pounds. Look at guys like Orson Mobley or, you know, big men. And now they're much closer to being a wide receiver.

So the game has changed, Randy. When you are looking for a tight end, we talked about two different categories of backs, you know, the every down guy. How do you, there's certainly more than one position of a tight end too with whether you're a wide tight end or, you know, this or that. So when you look at a tight end, it's. give us a little big picture of what you're looking for. How do you differentiate? Are there even, there probably aren't that many old-fashioned tight ends. No, there's not. And that's a big, that's a big criteria change from the past is that we always wanted a guy that could block as well. Nowadays, they're really looking for a big receiver.

That's what they're looking for. And it's really become a matchup position. There's still a little, a little disagreement with how to value tight ends in the draft because they are still tied ins. And are you better off spending? it on a receiver that can, you know, play every down and do kind of crazy things for you from long range, or do you want to get a tight end? And it's hard to argue because really, tight ends have always been a position where you've got to scheme them to get them open. And that's become the criteria for me over the years is you have tight ends who can get open because of the scheme. And then you have tight ends that can get open because of their

athleticism and their feet and ability to separate. So there's two different categories. Great distinction. Great distinction. Because that, That plays into than how much you can value him. I always wanted that. Like last year, Kyle Pitts went really high, unusually high for a tight end top five. In the back of your mind, if you were, let's say, valuing him,

you were going to have a meeting for, geez, do we franchise this guy, how much do we pay him? Is he or are there tight ends that you would almost pay like a wide receiver or no? Yeah, I think there are. I think he's one of them. He could not only get open on his own,

he didn't need a schemed offense to be effective. He was open even when he was covered. And there are guys that at the top of their game, you know, Tony Gonzalez, Kelsey, you know, Kittal, those guys are open even when they're covered. I'm probably, you know, overthinking a little bit, but those kind of guys are valuable. Very few of those guys were top picks either. So they kind of develop into that. But yeah, the criteria is different, different running attacks, running games. But now here's the problem.

It's not a problem, but most places now it's about fit. So you might have two or three tight ends. So you may take a certain tight end out. on first down, you know, and allow a more bigger, more physical, you know, but that gives away some of your deception as well. So I think the big thing is if you if your offense can, can focus and can use a tight end as a focal point, it's probably worth a top pick. If it's not, and that, in most of the past teams I've been with, I mean, I was with Antonio Gates and, and he was a difference maker, obviously. Oh, yeah.

But before that, I was really never with a team that had a tied-in that was a difference maker. So they were always kind of just plug-in, fill-in guys. So I would have said for the first 20 years in the league, for me, I would have said, no way, we're not going to take a tight-in up there. I don't care how good he is. But offenses have changed. You know, it's become a seven-on-seven really game for the most part. So these tight-ins are values.

I'll do respect to Mike Tyson-Christian-Fourier. I mean, you know, but, yeah. Mike Tyson and Christian Fourier and Pete Metzillars and all those guys would tell you their blockers first. Trust me. That's right. I think this group, yeah, go ahead. Tyson was a quarterback first, but yeah. It's not true.

Anyway. True. I would be interested to see, and I didn't really look at a whole bunch of other people's lists when it came to tight ends. Because I think the consensus is around the league and around different other platforms that evaluate players is that there is no consensus. I see names jumping all over the place. And that could be because different people value. them different, different people, fit them in different with their schemes. You know, I'm going to say that there's a kid that I really liked, and I don't know that I would take any of these tight-ins

in the first round that I saw. So you're probably starting, and it was like this for years, where your best centers, your best tight-ins, they started to fall top of the second round. Yep. And that's where I start with this group, is they're probably top of the second round guys. I saw a kid from Coastal Carolina that's six, four and a half, two-forty-five, he ran four-five, at some point. But he's another one where I looked at the tape, and I thought this kid can run well. He separates well.

He's a big kid. His name's Isaiah likely. He's got, what's the word I'm looking for? He's got body control to get in and out of breaks like a little man, but he's a big man. He's explosive. He's explosive with his feet under him to separate instantly on in line tight, tight, tight area routes, almost like a receiver.

Who's he remind you of? Kiddle. He reminds me a kiddle. Yeah, that kind of speed, that kind of. But here's the catch. This kid ran in his pro day. He didn't run at the combine, but he went to his pro day and ran 4-8. So now what do you do with him, Mike?

You've got a really high grade and a good report on him and a good feel from watching film. And your scout or your tight-in coach comes back to you and said, this guy ran 4-8. We can't draft this guy. He can't run. What are you going to do? You answer that. I know the Seahawks just held a media combine and Mike Dugar, who covers the Seahucks for the athletic, ran a 485 at us. So you got to have your tight end that if you're going to draft him.

He's got to run faster than the beat guy. I think that's a good rule, don't you? It is. But that beat guy is not going to show up on tape like this guy did. I promise you. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I know.

I know. I don't know. Well, what did George Kittle run? I don't know. That's a good question. I do not know. And I guess at a certain point, something like that can be a deal breaker for you if you're talking about how high you are in the draft. At a certain point, is it as big of a deal?

I had zero question about his speed until I heard someone say he ran 4-8 at his pro day. Zero question. I've watched multiple films on this guy. I've watched all his catches. I had zero question about a speed. He had a 99-yard receiving touchdown in a Division I football game. on a little seam route, 99 yards. If he runs 4'8, someone ought to caught him, right?

Someone on defense should have caught him. Well, you can go test him again and have him run or something, right? Was it a bad day, or is that just... I got the workout, and I watched it on film. It was a workout at his school. And I saw a quirky start in that his body moved before his hand moved. He had three or four false starts, and I'm thinking, maybe this guy is just a tough guy to get a good watch on.

And again, maybe in my mind I'm trying to make excuses because I know he's a good player and I want him. You know, one of the things that I've done with receivers coaches just messing around, you know, you can time how long it takes a guy to get to a certain depth on a route, you know, if it's the same route. And it's really fun to do because what we were doing is we were watching like Michael Irvin and Tori Holt and these guys running certain routes and seeing how long it takes them to get 19 yards and turn this way or whatever. couldn't you do that type of a thing with Isaiah Life? He's going to run three different routes, right? 20 times each or 10 times each. Couldn't you time it on the film and just say, oh, you know what? He's right.

No, he's just with everybody else. He's fine or no. You can, yes. And I think that's done regularly. They've split this guy out and he's lined up next to a receiver who's in the slot. So he's a step behind the receiver who's on the line of scrimmage and at five yards, they're even. So that tells me he comes off the ball like he shot out of a cannon for a big man. You forget how big he is when you watch him run.

But for some reason on that day, his time speed was not good. So you've got to make a decision. Yeah, and we always hear people say, ah, the 40 times overrated, you got to watch the film. Well, here's your extreme test, right, to see if you're willing to do that. But I would have a hard time throwing out the fact that he played football really well and ran for 99 yards in a game and no one caught him. I agree. Shoot, what was Jerry Rice's 40 time or whatever, you know? It comes down to the decision makers and I think how confident they are in the draft room. I, too, would say the same thing. I'd say, forget it. I don't care about the speed. I know he can run fast. I don't have any doubt.

But I know teams that will, you know, won't consider him until round four or five because they don't want to tie it in their times at 4.8. Okay, Mueller, then what's your grade? How early would you be okay taking him in a draft in just a regular draft? I had him at the top of the second round. Yeah. I really did. I think he's a guy that makes all the contested catches. He's got really long arms so he can adjust and catch outside his frame. I just think he's going to be, when he walks off the bus, the quarterback's favorite target.

I think he's going to find him. He has some instincts to where he really settles in and out of breaks. He settles in zone spaces, things that are really hard to coach. And not only that, I just think his body control and in. And his athleticism has upside once he gets to the NFL level. I think the details that he learns his first week on the job in the NFL are going to take him to the next level. So you've got to kind of be a little forecaster too of, you know, upside and of skill sets and how good they can be. And I just had a real good feeling about this kid when I saw him.

The second guy for me is Trey McBride from Colorado State. Totally different style, six three and a half, 246. a quickness, a guy more built like an h-back, maybe a full-back type, catches really confidently, plucks the ball. One thing I neglected to say about likely is that for a big man, he's a really good blocker on the perimeter and second level. He stays after defenders and covers up smaller guys in the running game. So he's not a one-dimensional guy.

He can be a really good blocker, especially off the line of scrimmage. I struggled a little bit with McBride in that regard. More of a catcher. Will body catch some? But he's a tough kid. They split him out. They do a lot of things with him. I'm trying to think of a comp for him where he can do so many things.

He's almost like the big fullback from the Ravens and Kyle Eustchick from the 49ers. But he's an inch taller, you know. So they could do a lot of things like that. him in my opinion. He's going to run 4-5-5 fast enough, but he's not going to run away from people. The reason I ranked him behind likely is the arm length and the catch radius. Likely catches way away from his body with longer arms. This kid will let it come to him and get inside his frame. And against NFL defenders, they're going to reach around you and knock that ball away if you don't have extended out to catch it. And you can't let him come to your body.

just those catches won't happen. So does he need to win different types of matchups? I think in this case, he's a little bit more of a matchup guy at different times based on scheme. I don't have the full confidence that this guy can get open on his own all the time, like I do with likely. I think this guy can get open, but he's going to need some schemes to help him as well. I felt like he's going to run a route. He is in McBride. He's going to run a route just like it is on the card.

in other words if you write everybody runs card routes for the for the defense in practice he's going to run it exactly like it's coached but if something comes up seldom does it ever go like it's on the card and you got to adjust got to adjust i don't know how mcbride would do having to adjust things all the time i just think that the bigger longer uh bigger target likely would be a better option for you when when shit goes south that's all if that makes sense yep absolutely so i like mcbride the second The third guy for me was the UCLA guy, Greg Dulzzzich, 64, 243, but he's a one-speed guy. The system kind of has to get him open. He runs 4-7, but he's got some quickness, a little tight as an athlete for me.

Good field versus zones, a little high at his breaking points, but he catches everything. He's going to be a dependable, you know, for me, a third round type guy, a dependable option at tight-in, but never going to be a high-end big playmaker. And I consider these guys, who's the tied-in from Cincinnati that just signed with somebody else? He got hurt. Was it like Azuma? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He went to the Jets, right?

Yeah. This guy's kind of like him. He's going to have to get schemed open a lot. Yes. So you've got him third then. Yes. You've got him third, and then you've got Woods fourth. Is that right?

Yes. Yeah, and I think I only looked at four of them, to be honest. I looked at a bunch. I only came back with four. Jolani Woods was intriguing to me because you're talking about a six, seven, 255 pound basketball player looking dude now. You talk about, he runs four, six.

He's kind of a one speed, longer striding guy, but all of a sudden he's on you and by you. I think he's going to be a nightmare on third downs and then they're in the red zone. He's got good body control. He can get in and out of his breaks at times. I just don't know that there's a big body of work. with him. I don't think football has been in his background his whole life. So he probably has

more upside because of it. But he's going to have to learn a little bit about playing the position still. But that big target and hands that are adequate, again, Philip Rivers would take all these guys he can get. Phillips a big guy at 6.5. He said, I want to throw to other big guys. So 6'5 to 6'7. That's something that some quarterbacks, you know, really, they don't have to look for them when there's traffic and there's always traffic over the middle. These guys kind of open themselves up. And again, like the guys we talked about before, they catch when they're covered and they're open when they're covered.

So they're still going to have to make, you know, catches and the ball is still going to be, they're going to be targeted even when they're, when they are covered. So I like those guys for the most part. I wouldn't say that any of them are game breaking type difference makers. I think likely can be at some point. But that's a shot in the dark too, because there's. You know, there's that speed thing that I don't see on tape, but I see in the workout. So I don't know what you think of that group.

And you mentioned, you mentioned a little bit of a Kittle comp. Now, Kittle malls people in the run game, too. Were you talking mostly just as a receiver? Or do you see similarities? For McRide. Yeah, for likely. For likely. You'd mentioned him.

I think likely is going to be a really good in-line blocker. I think he could become Kittl. He's already a really good perimeter blocker and a second-level blocker. Walker because he's willing, he's competitive, he's tough. They just don't use him as that. So at Coastal Carolina. So there's a leap of faith there. Yeah. No, it's a good group. It's a good group. Yeah. It's indicative that we're going to do a top five tight ends and we came up with four. That's sort of how it is. And that's what you're talking about. You could stretch it out to 10, but let's not imply that there's 10, right? Right. I agree. So, okay, before we wrap up here,

let's hit the big news of the week. Everyone's in their draft rooms was really in the courtroom, with Brian Florey's former Dolphins head coach has amended his lawsuit against the NFL. And we want to talk about this because it's hiring. This is interesting stuff and clearly the processes need to improve. But he has amended his lawsuit against the NFL. And his efforts have been joined by Steve Wilkes and Ray Horton with some new and specific allegations. The coaches are basically alleging violations of federal and state civil rights statutes. my old friend from ESPN, Kevin Seaford, pointed out, they can ultimately try to prove one of two things.

And we're not going to dwell too much in the legal because we're not lawyers. But they can try to prove disparate treatment, which requires proof of intentional discrimination, or they can try to prove disparate impact, which requires proof that a policy impacts minority is differently than it applies to others. Now, like I said, not an attorney. I don't know the legal strategies, but I think I do want to discuss, Randy, especially since, you've been in the GM chair where you hire coaches or are involved in hiring coaches. I do want to talk about minority hiring in the NFL separate from just hiring in general, especially as we've seen recently where there's been not only these types of allegations,

but a time where there's only one or two black coaches in the league at a time, and it's gotten a lot of attention. And really, for me, the question is whether the teams take the minority hiring seriously enough to legitimately prioritize it in the hiring process through the Rooney Roe NRA. rule, or if that rule is, which we've seen at times, just a box that has to be checked and procedurally you need to interview X number of people, and then we can really go do what we're going to do anyway. And so I want to set aside some aspects of this lawsuit that I find distracting from that, and that is whether Steve Wilkes was a bridge coach, whether he wanted

Josh Allen instead of Josh Rosen, whether the GM was doing his job. To me, those are all things that, as you know, anyone could face. I mean, you've negotiated contracts from an elementary school parking lot two states away from the team facility because your owner was trying to move the team. A lot of these jobs have things in them that make it hard. I think we need to focus on the hiring process itself. And the thing that was interesting to me that was different than what I've seen before in these types of things is that audio recording of Mike Malarkey. Yeah. Which I never saw that from 2020.

but all of a sudden it comes out and Mike Malarkey basically says this. He was hired by the Titans in 2016. He had been the interim coach there and they had fired Ken Wizzlin and then they made him the head coach. And he basically said this. I allowed myself at one point when I was in Tennessee to get caught up in something I regret. I still regret it. The ownership there, Amy Adams Strunk and her family came in and told me I was going to be the head coach in 2016 before they went through the Rooney Rule. And so I sat there knowing I was the head coach, and they went through this fake process, knowing a lot of the coaches.

He said, I knew a lot of the coaches they were interviewing, know how much they prepared, knowing everything they could do, they had no chance to get the job. He said the GM there, John Robinson. He was in the interview with me. He had no idea why he's even interviewing me because I had the job already. He basically said he regretted it. To me, Randy, the reason I say this is different is we just never had that type of. of specifics about a specific hire. We don't really get behind the curtain in that specific way. What I wanted to ask you was, I think, in these hiring processes, we know that human nature is to

fall in love with a candidate. Even sometimes when you fire a candidate, you probably have a list of some people that you might want to hire. And while that can create a comfortable fit or a good fit. It can also exclude a lot of people and really run rush shot over the Rooney Rule and the process to get the best coach. And I wanted to ask you, like, what, as you kind of look at this, and I think we have transitioned to now where there's more attention on the hiring and whether they're following the rules because they have to or because it's in their heart, what are some things that could be done to improve that process and make sure it's not kind of what malarkey described? Right.

Well, a couple things come to my mind. I've always said that we need to spend more effort and energy on the process before it ever gets to the Rooney Rule box. In other words, I always think it's about relationships. And we talked about it, I think, on the podcast earlier this year, where I would love to see the league go back. and come up with some kind of, not only process, but some kind of a program where you can hook up potential, especially minority coaches with GMs, with ownership. And everybody says, oh, they've done that for years. Well, they've done it in a formal setting at some fancy resort. I'm talking about informally around a campfire or playing golf or fishing or something crazy like that, where you can

actually build relationships, right, and not be encumbered by the boss always being there. So I've always thought we've done a bad job of really just culturing relationships. So that's one thing. The other thing is teams now have a director of inclusion and diversity. Every team has one. They all did it a year or two ago and have that person on staff. You probably should include them in this process just for the sake of getting the process to be a disciplined and structured format. And if we were to believe, and I know Mike Malarkey personally, he's a.

man of his integrity. I don't doubt anything he said. But now this has come to light. This clearly was a fact that they had hired a guy before they even went through the process. You just can't have that. So that's got to be, you know, addressed whether it ends up being part of a lawsuit or not. I don't know. That's way above my pay grade. But you just can't have this type of thinking if we're going to make progress. So I think from from the standpoint of the Rooney rule, maybe we've outlived it a little bit. I wish they'd push it back to where they'd start this relationship culturing earlier. But at the same time, we have people in place in offices now in the NFL. That's a new thing, too, in the last couple years.

It is a new thing. Yeah, just come in the last year or two that this ought to be able to help the process, help and make sure that we don't say things like this, that you don't allow decisions to get made without the process having been thorough and for the process to actually go through like the calendar says it should. So I think there are a couple things in place. We've just got to make an effort to institute them and then follow them and police them. And I think one of the things that's really helpful is knowing who's on the search committees and all of that.

And having that be above board and public. And I think a director of diversity inclusion is going to, of course, have that. But to like to me, it's been very helpful to know. You can almost predict who's going to get hired sometimes or who's not going to get hired. When you see who it is that's on those committees. And we've, like we talked about the Minnesota one, you know, where, you know, there were people from the previous personnel staff on it, the salary cap person's on it. There's all these different people who just through human nature are going to want, they're going to want to not want certain people to be hired. And I think the more that we can know about that, the more that we can then analyze it, the more we can ask questions about it, the more it can just,

be known, then we can have a better feel for why certain people are hired and we can evaluate it and criticize it when it needs to be criticized as opposed to the mystery black box here where, geez, I don't know why they hired this guy. I guess he knew this person, right? That sort of thing. You've got to find a way, and I'm not sure I have the answer for it, but you've got to find a way to make the process pure. It has to be pure. It has to be reasonable and it has to be non-agenda affected. And you said it, there's a lot of these hiring processes that I can tell even from just the people already in the building what kind of person is going to get the job just because of the kingdoms and the walls and the fences that are built in certain organizations. And so you're

not going to hire a certain type of person or maybe a certain knowledge level of person because there are people trying to protect their own backside. But a lot of that comes from ownership. And And I've been involved in several of these hires of coaches. And I will say this, in every one of the ones I was involved in, I feared the owner. I feared the boss. So I wanted this to be a legitimate search. And it had to be backed up by a solid discipline process and gather the information like you would, having no idea who you're going to hire, whether you had a hunch in the back your head or not.

But I just think that is between the GM and the head coach. I mean, the GM and the owner. And you've got to have that respect factor. And that owner's got to lean on you because they are the leader of this process at the end of the day. Nobody's getting hired without their stamp. So I just think that's where it kind of falls and it falls on owners and leaders and GMs to make sure the process is pure and don't let the agendas of other people in the building even get involved. And the owners are sensitive to criticism. We always wonder what can what can influence an owner.

Well, they do get, they do read. They do care. And listen to the radio. Listen to all that stuff. They really do. So I think the more that we can analyze these processes too and, and criticize them when they need to be criticized or point out situations of what are you doing is helpful. But clearly there has to be processes within the building to make sure that doesn't happen.

And I think actually this coming out is a positive thing on that Tennessee situation. because of the awareness and because of the focus that puts on the process. I feel like we're getting more and more focus and process and light being shined on these hires every year. And to me, that's really helpful. This shows an example of a process that was tainted, and it just can't be that way. It should never be that way. Absolutely. And we'll see what comes of it.

At a league level, the league basically wasn't aware of this interview with Markey either. And we'll see what comes out the rest of this lawsuit with the Brian Florey situation. And maybe there is more. He's certainly certain things about Stephen Ross of the Dolphins, so we will see that. We are about out of time, Randy. I didn't have much else on my list today, even though it's been a busy free agency period. I think we've gotten to most things. Was there?

I think we did. Hopefully we haven't bored our listeners to death with the breakdown of the running backs and tight ends. But it is the time of year when these draft lists and criterias and critiques are a of newsworthy item, I think, for the most part. Yep. And next week we'll do another position. Do you have in the back of your mind what you want to do next week? No, I haven't got that far yet. At some point, we're going to have to talk about the quarterbacks, though.

We sure. I have already done all the film on that, so we could make it a quarterback. Let's do the quarterbacks next week. Let's do the quarterbacks next week. I think that'll be a great interest. And appreciate your work on that. Appreciate everybody listening. I'm Mike Sandow, senior writer from the athletic.

You can find me on Twitter at Sandow NFL. You can find Randy Mueller. Not only on Twitter at Randy Mueller underscore. You can find him at Mueller. football.com. Thanks, everyone. This was the Athletic Football Show.