The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Football GM: Packers future at QB, potential head coach openings, belief in the Bengals & more

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

What should the Packers do with Aaron Rodgers and Jordan Love? Mike Sando and former GM Randy Mueller discuss the future of the QB position in Green Bay. Then, they examine the teams looking for a new head coach and the potential openings to come this offseason. Plus, they share why their opinions on the Bengals have changed and they examine what a Greg Roman departure could mean for the Ravens offense.Follow Mike on Twitter: @SandoNFLFollow Randy on Twitter: @RandyMueller_Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube2:27 Packers QB situation with Aaron Rodgers & Jordan Love15:06 Teams looking for a new head coach & potential openings43:11 Changing opinions on the Bengals49:35 Greg Roman candidate for Stanford job57:30 GM Notebook (Mike White & Geno Smith)1:07:27 Week 13 Picks Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome, everybody, the Football GM podcast. Mike Sando here from The Athletic with the GM, Randy Mueller. Happy post- Thanksgiving. Randy, happy holidays. How are you doing? I'm doing great, Mike. You're happy to have one holiday behind us, but I like the holidays,

so we're still in the middle of it. I kind of lost my stinger a little bit. I came to Idaho a day ago, and it hasn't stopped snowing since I got here. So I've already plowed three times and I'm ready to head to the sunshine, you know, it's crazy. Wow, you better, I can connect you to the Sean McDermott's guy. He helped dig him out of there. Yeah, no kidding. You know, I love this time of year, too. You know, we did, uh, wife's got the upstairs, like, so cozy with the tree and these little like fake birch trees that light up and these candles.

The candles are on remote control. You ever seen that? These little candles, you do a remote control. They look like that's above my pay grade. I can promise. I mean, this whole thing, look, I'm like, we just need a roaring fire in here. I could just spend like a week sitting on the couch there with the blanket and all that, except I wouldn't get any of the podcast done or any of the work done. But, yeah, love this time of year. It's cold here, too, on the west side of Washington State. So hope everyone out there is having good holidays.

We got a lot to talk about. The topics never take a holiday around here. We are going to discuss kind of some interesting stuff on the Packers with our spin on it and Randy spin on really how we should be thinking about what they're doing or not doing with Aaron Rogers and who their quarterback is going to be next year into the future. There's a lot to talk about on the front of some of these teams that could be looking for new coaches or already are. We'll bring some perspectives to that. We're going to talk about the Bengals, maybe some grudging respect given to the Bengals here.

The Football GM podcast, been a little skeptical on SINC, but we will talk about That Greg Roman's name coming up for the Stanford job gives us a great ability or entree into the topic of Lamar Jackson, the offense there, what they should do, what they shouldn't do. We do have the GM Notebook this week, a couple other topics, our picks. I think we're decent in our picks, not too bad last week, so we'll see how it goes this time. But Mr. Mueller, let's start out with a little bit of Packer conversation. You up for it? Yeah, I'm ready to go.

I mean, we've had McAfee's show in the books, right? So there should be plenty to talk about. I mean, we all sit around and wait for that every week now. Yeah, absolutely. So basically, Cliff's Notes version of our intro here on Rogers, he starts, but does not finish the game against Philly. Jordan Love comes in. Looks pretty good. I thought he looked pretty good.

Six of nine hundred and some yards seem to be throwing on time, maybe looking a little better. We'll see if the actual football expert, Randy Mueller agrees with me. Would you agree, though? Jordan Love looked pretty good, right? Yeah, I thought he looked really good. actually he had plenty of zip on the ball. And I just thought moved with some sharpness and made decision sharp as well. So I think he was a plus for his little bit of time.

He was in there for sure. Yeah, that was impressive. And certainly better than what we saw him before, right? The Kansas City game that he started, it was very rudimentary, you know, right? Well, and he's another year into it. I mean, this is a better player than he was a year ago. He'll probably be better a year from now. So it just takes time.

And everybody develops, you know, in a different time frame and calendar. we as fans and even evaluators can't put a time on how somebody evaluates how long. It's like maturity with us, right? Some of us mature at age 25, some mature at age 60. It just changes. You know, you don't know. Yeah, I'm still waiting for that. Yeah, I'm with you.

I'm with you. I think this is how I'd like to come at this, you know, and you can go whatever direction you want. But if you're the Packers, I'm going to ask a series of questions here. If you're the Packers, do you know for sure who your starting quarterback is in 2023? was that die cast when Rogers did his new expensive deal? Are we, we being the Packers, are we hoping to look at Jordan Love because we might want to trade him because we might want to start him and trade Rogers because we might want to keep Jordan Love another year, even if we don't do the fifth year option and then maybe figure out what we want to do after that.

What do you think is on the table here, Randy, and what is interesting to you about that situation? Yeah, that's a lot of angles for sure and a lot of different ways to go with it. The first thing for me is I do think the die was cast when they signed Rogers to the long-term deal. I think they had to commit for not only this year but next year and just the basics of the contract. And here's why. We've watched Green Bay make conservative decision after conservative decision. They're setting club precedent every day. Everything they do is methodical and very deliberate.

And I just don't see them changing face and moving Aaron Rogers at this point. Having said that, I think it benefits everybody. to get Jordan Love some time. I just don't think that Aaron Rogers is ever going to allow that. I think he has too much cachet. Have we seen anything that he's done in the last year, year and a half that is going to lend itself to not being self-serving? Probably not.

I mean, you could even go back as far as yesterday to the McAfee show when he announced he's going to play this week. I thought that was almost crazy for him to say that, even though he didn't think about anybody but himself. This is done weekly around the NFL where the quarterback decision is somewhat held close to the vest by franchises for opposition prep time for just messaging with your opponents. And he took all guesswork out of that and then come to find out he didn't even practice on Wednesday. So they could have sat on this till probably Thursday or Friday and had the bears prepare and had them prepare for a Jordan love and spin it to where it really helps the team. He didn't have any interest in doing that.

he couldn't wait to say the things that he said. So there's some issues still with what he's going to do. Least of all, do I think he's going to pull the car over, get out of the car, and let somebody else drive. And he said, oh, by the way, I'll just sit in the back seat and not have anything to say about it. While his replacement drives a car, I just don't see him ever acquiescing to that, at least not for a few more weeks. Okay, so there's two things that came to my mind. I was writing them down so I wouldn't forget in that. And the first one was, okay, I totally agree on the Packers being deliberate.

You know, we talked about, they don't even know how to acquire a player at the trade deadline. Now, that being said, they have shown an ability to trade a player away, Devante Adams. And of course, years ago when it was different people in the front office, but also deliberate front office, they traded Brett Farve. So is there any way that they could get to the end of the season and then even have it be somewhat amicable, but decide they want to go what they sort of wanted to do a couple years ago when they drafted Jordan Love and find a way out of this to where you delay the payment of a bonus and move him. Is that a deliberate enough move that could be done when you have the benefit of months or weeks of the offseason? Or do you think the Packers would be, you know, their inability to make other moves would prevent even that type of move after they did it with Devante?

Well, I think they did it with Devante and put that on the, on the feet. of the salary cap, right? They couldn't build a team around paying a receiver $28, $29 million a year. I have no doubt they can move Aaron Rogers if that's what they decide to do. Now, we don't know the details of the contract, but your points are all valid. They would have an eye inside or look at a couple wide spots in the road where they could jump off at the right time. That is the Aaron Rogers contract. I don't know that they would do that. It would be, to me, the next level. or maybe two levels above trading Devante Adams and sending him to the Raiders. I just,

I don't know that that's possible in this deal, but I said two months ago, and I think you agreed, all things have to be on the table. Just because the season has gone south, it's a, it's a dynamic that I'm not sure is going to work with him, with Lefleur,

with just the way their defense is underachieved. They've got issues there, in my opinion. Oh, so they're going to have to fix a lot of things. it's not all on Aaron Rogers. And at the end of the day, in my opinion, Rogers is still a really good passer of the football. We can talk about the thumb being an issue.

We can talk about the ribs now. But would I want Aaron Rogers as my quarterback? Yes. And so they're not going to have trouble finding a home for him at all and probably getting some compensation for him if that's what they want. I don't know that the contract's going to allow. He upgrades 30 teams probably at quarterback tomorrow. Yeah. But it comes with a price.

And it's every Tuesday. day having to fight dialogue and fight the narrative and everything else that goes on with him kind of being in charge. And there's not a lot of GMs at a lot of places that are willing to relinquish that right of running your own team. Now, all of that said, we also came to a conclusion through the end of last season that he did seem to be more on the same page with Brian Gutakum and some of the leaders there, right? Didn't we get that sense that what had been chili and remember that offseason before. And, you know, he was mocking Goudicust and text to friends. We feel like they're at least on a respectable footing right now, right? That there's at least some

rapport or involvement of Aaron Rogers in the, when they discuss things. Would you, would you I think 100% and that's there? That would not preclude me from being the GM and if something was right, trading him. I mean, that's just business, right? I'm this, I'm the guy who had, I'm, I'm I'm the guy that had lunch with Ricky Williams in New Orleans two days before we traded him to Miami. It's just business is business, right? You got to do what you got to do. But you actually need to have that. If you have that rapport, it actually could help you do a deal, is what I'm saying. Because Rogers has to be amenable and involved to whatever you're going to do. Now, what you said a minute ago about, hey, when has Aaron Rogers ever done something that's not in his best interest?

And I feel, and I agree with the spirit of that, but I felt like after the game, he, he, said, I got two thoughts in this. After the game, he said, hey, if I'm healthy this week, I'm playing. Okay, as long as we're in it, I'm playing. I expect to play. But he also said, now look, once we're eliminated, as much as I have pride, as much as I'm a competitor, I do understand there's a conversation to be had about what we do next, right? And so to me, I wonder, could it be in Aaron Rogers' best interests longer term if Jordan Love plays? Okay. And so because I don't think Aaron Rogers is feeling threatened by Jordan Love, okay, at this stage.

But if Jordan Love goes out there and plays well, that could help Aaron Rogers because, well, I guess if he wants out of there, they feel like they've got a guy that can replace him and they could trade him. Or if they decided they wanted to move Jordan Love, he could have greater value. And that can help Aaron Rogers. Hey, you know what? Let's get a whatever pick we can get. and let's put it back into the roster. So that was a little bit of, you know, that's a little bit more long-term thinking possibly for Rogers.

Or could Rogers already know that he's coming back next year? They've talked about this, hey, this is a two-year thing, so that he could feel comfortable letting Love play in a manner like I said, that it could actually help him, right, if they can get value for him. And he's not going to feel threatened by Jordan Love doing it. And they're kind of out of it anyway.

He knows they're not going to go on a big win streak. What do you think of that? I think those are all. valid points. And I did see a little bit of humility in his statements as well. We'll see where that goes as the weeks tick off. I think right now they still mathematically have a chance. Their next couple games, I think, are winnable. I don't think they're a playoff team. And at some point, that door is going to close, in my opinion. Then we'll see. I guess I'm just a little, I'm not really drinking the Rogers best for the team Kool-Aid yet. Maybe I just, maybe that's

the GM in me that just I'm waiting for to be slapped upside the back of the head, you know, like you did when you're a kid, where you just whack him in the back of the head. And just, come on, you dumb, dumb. You should have known that. I'm not ready to buy in. Yeah, I'm not ready to buy in yet. Yeah, yeah. I'm not either.

I think it would be, I think it's an interesting situation there for sure. And maybe we don't know what's been said behind the scenes or what assurances are, what conversations or what his plans even are. I don't see him retiring, certainly. I mean, there's too much money on the table. And like you said, he can still throw the ball great. Yeah, no doubt. The one narrative I do think we can expunge is the fact that the Packers have to get

something out of Jordan Love because they picked him in the first round. I got news for you. NFL teams waste first round picks all the time. And I don't think it's been a waste. I actually think it's supplied them with an ample backup. And I'm still not sure that in the back of my mind that, he hasn't made Aaron Rogers refocus, refine everything he's done the last two years to come back to being an MVP because I didn't think he was an MVP three years ago when they drafted

Jordan Love. I just didn't see it. And I think we all need to feel at some point we're replaceable. And I think once Aaron had a little humble pie and said, whoa, they might move on, I think he's up this game since then. So I think their first round pick was already shown value, even though Jordan Love hasn't played. That's just my opinion. Well, there are only recourse this offseason to draft them that are quarterback early then. Let's get him going again. Let me ask you this. Would you do it if you knew you were going to get two more years of MVP play?

Yeah, I would. I would. Especially where they picked him. I think the fascinating thing is, you know, like whatever in Rogers Fulzer, I think that, you know, this year they really got to a point where the weaponry was terrible. And I think the development of Christian Watson has been an encouraging sign and gives them maybe finally a young guy. with some speed. There's that word you always covet, you know, in those types of players. You've got to be able to get down the field. Maybe they have somebody young. They can build around for next season

in restoring the receiving course so that the offense does, and Rogers do look great again. That seems plausible to me. And it's helped their running game. I don't care what anybody says. And I thought this by drafting Christian Watson, I thought they would get this even if he didn't refine his trait, even if he didn't come developed and polished and it took time. I think thought his speed alone would soften coverage and soften the way people played and defended their run game. And I think that has too when he's been back and not only is he healthy and playing good now, Watson I'm referring to is that it's made their running game even more of a weapon for them. And that's what I thought the Packers would have to be from week one on.

Yep. Let's get into some of these head coach openings, Randy. We've got several of them on here, some interesting angles on this. We'll start with the two teams that are already open. Carolina Steve Wilkes doing pretty well there, but I think we both do to agree. The owner's probably going to look for a big name, a big fish there. He went after Matt Ruhle last time. And speaking of Matt Ruhl, it reminded me of the days. You saw what Matt Ruhl said, right, today? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. What did you think of that? I thought it was, oh, what's the right word for it? I thought it was a little Bush League, even his comments to say, I think, less of Matt now than I did before I heard it. That's all. I mean, those who haven't heard it, he talked about not being aligned with the people in his own building by saying how aligned he was with the Nebraska people. So that kind of was, I thought, a backhanded compliment. The other thing was he said that when he went to Carolina, that they had a four or five year plan in place. That's

why his contract was so long. And he thought he was going to have more time to rebuild it. To me, that was a bunch of crap. I mean, long term in the NFL, if you think more than two years, you're an idiot, okay? You've put your head in the sand and not realize what the NFL is all about. Nobody gets a four or five year plan, and that made no sense to me at all. He said he would have built the team different. He would have not drafted and developed players. That's hogwash. You're going to draft and develop players no matter what. You just add to it when you add free agency and some other things. They made some trades. A year ago, they traded for two or three defensive backs. Remember, from other teams. So they gave picks away. They've also swung and missed on quarterback two or three

times. And I don't know whose fault and where the fingers go and all that. But Matt was in charge of all this. So I didn't buy anything that he said. God bless him. I hope he, I think he's a good guy. And I actually think he's a really good coach. Maybe the college way to build a team is best for him. But to say that he thought he had a four or five year plan and he never got a chance. And it changed to a two year plan. I thought it was borderline. Just a comical for me. That's ridiculous. You know, back in the day. Remember, didn't they used to do like tenure plans with like, Tom Randallie had a 10-year plan, you know, all that type of stuff back in the day. I'll tell you. We're all week to week in the NFL, trust me. If you think beyond that, you're not, you're kidding yourself.

Trust me. Yeah, I said for years, we're all three weeks from a total mutiny. So if you got a four or five year plan, that's good for the next staff. The next group will have a four or five years from a mutiny. That isn't that true? Totally. That's just the way the NFL is. Totally. You're three weeks from a mutiny. That is great. so much for long term. So anyway, that job, though, I mean, so I don't know, it's probably a little early to know what he's, what he's going to go after.

But I don't know, I don't know how I feel about where they're at, because whatever they bring in next is not going to be on the same timeline as the GM either. So, you know, it's just. I think it's, I think it could be a really good job, because I think it's a good franchise in a city based on, on really wanting to love their team. Yeah. Tepper seems a little temperamental at times.

obviously involved more than the average NFL owner. So he's got, you know, and that's his ball. He can do what he wants. I don't know if that job is for everybody because of that. And yes, Scott Fitterer, both of us have known for years. I think he's very good at what he does. I think he'll, you know, acquiesce to wherever TEPA wants to take the team. But I agree with you.

If they want a proven commodity who's been a successful, a success in the NFL, obviously the GM's job, he'll have something to say about that. I just remember when we were in Miami and I was the GM and Nick Saban left to go to Alabama, ownership and the powers that be above me went on an excursion themselves. Mike, they interviewed six, seven, eight coaches, and I wasn't even involved. And I was the sitting GM. So their comeback to me was, we just want to make. sure that they're okay with you, which I totally understand. The new coach has to be okay with the GM.

What it told me was that they would like to have me stay regardless, but they wanted to make sure that anybody they brought to the finalist table, we were aligned and on the same page. That to me might make some sense in this Carolina search, to be honest with you. I think probably TEPA and whoever his confidants are, maybe they interview six or seven or eight guys and bring back three or four guys for Scott to spend time with. and they narrow it down that way. It's not a referendum on they don't want Scott, but it's obviously a position that they're going to have two people in two different chairs,

and they've got to make sure that it's, it can be an arranged marriage, but they've got to make sure it's one from the heart. That's for sure. Yeah. I kind of think of Dan Quinn there a little bit, just if you want to find a connection with Scott Fitterer, those are two guys that were together in Seattle, obviously.

Right. I don't know who else Fitterer might have on his list, but that's at least somebody who's, done a really good job. And I think Dan Quinn has kind of reinvented himself a little bit as a caller and it's had time to think about probably. I think he's one of those guys who's always trying to get better and improve his processes and from what I could tell. So it's done a great job with Dallas. And his success at its peak was in Atlanta in the NFC South. So Carolina is going to know of that. It's going to be an easier fit because he has had success in that division.

And I think that would bode well for him in any type of an interview because he's, he's going to know the lay of the land, probably better than most. Yeah, let's go to Indy now, too, which has just been a fascinating place with Chris Ballard, I think, the GM there, probably marginalized by the Jeff Saturday hiring. The owner seems unhinged a little bit. No, no, no, no. My guess is that long-term Jeff Saturday has probably got a future with the team in some way. I don't think he's going to be a, you know, a 16 hour a day coach,

but I think he could definitely be an advisor, be in the front office. I wouldn't put it past Ursay if he was even the GM or something like that. You never know what's going to happen there. I guess the question for me with them is, you know, to what extent we would buy into a Jim Harbaugh-type going there? One of the things I think I wrote about this on Monday was just, you know, for the most part, Ursa has had different types of personalities there in Frank Reich and Chuck Pagano.

and Jim called Will and Tony Dungey, all pretty polished guys. And I think Jim Harbaugh would be different there, but obviously he played there, and they kind of need a shake-up maybe. What do you think? Yeah, I actually like the Harbaugh connection. I think it makes some sense. Chris Ballard has already acquiesced his own position and said, hey, I'm willing to take a sharper personality as a partner.

I mean, must we forget, he hired Josh McDaniel, and who left him standing at the altar and didn't end up taking the job. So I think Chris's personality is such that he could get along with anybody, and I know Harbaugh has been tough for certain people to work with. He had apparently a lot of pushback when him and Trent Balke were together in San Francisco. I don't know who's to blame for that. But Harbaugh does seem like a fairly reasonable guy, and so I think there is probably some traction to that.

I'd almost take it further and say that I'd be surprised if somebody from the Colts hadn't already talked to Harbaugh. I don't know that Jim is going to make a jump like that, but Jim has in the back of his mind, and this is just my opinion, when they ask him to take a pay cut a year or two ago, and then he's turned it around now with two great years since then, I think he's got a little chip on his shoulder from having done that. And I think he'd like to prove that, hey, I can go back to the NFL. We know he flirted with the Vikings job last year. But I'm with you. I think there's some traction to the Colt situation being a decent fit. whether that works out or not, I don't know. Will there be others? Yeah, I'm sure there will be. But I don't hate that idea, that's for sure.

And then what do you think about what it means for the rest of the, for an officer? Do you think that, you know, how do you think Ballard's affected? He signed an extension before the year, too. And how do you feel about that in general, too, with an owner? Let's just say Jim Mersey, he's going to eat Frank Reich a lot of money the next few years. Does that make it more likely that, you know, Chris Ballard would stay? Or is that a if a Harbaugh comes in, does Harbaugh care who the GM is? What do you think of that as a potential fit? And factoring in, too, that Jeff Saturday may be in the mix somewhere too.

Yeah, I think Chris Ballard is there. I'll be honest with you. I don't think he's going anywhere, whether it was the contract's extension or just his way of doing business. I think that has solidified himself there. Sure, they've had an underachieving year. But the combination of Chris Ballard, Ed Dodd, who's his right-hand man, another former Seahawk guy, I think those guys are firmly okay there. I don't think Harbaugh will demand the front office structure that he might want.

I think he's more apt to want to coach the team, and I think that's good for the Colts. I don't think Jim Harbaugh would be in a position to bring his own GM, to do his own thing, and I don't think Ursa would acquiesce to that at all. So I think those guys will be given a chance, and like you said, it would not shock me if you introduced Jeff Saturday in some fashion in a front office advisory role, a consultant to the owner or something like that at the end of this. I think Jeff's going to have his fill by the time this season gets over with the demands, like you said on his time, the criticism,

everything that comes with being a head coach. I think it sounds like a great idea. I'll be interested to hear how he feels after having done this for 10 or 12 weeks, especially if they don't have success. I don't know what he's going to be able to also bring to the table that, hey, I can make better after this amount of time. So I can see him doing something else. Yeah, I can see that too. I think one of the things before we started to, I think you made a good point, too, about Ballard that he's proved, you know, a willingness to work with anyone.

Heck, he was trying to hire Josh McDaniels, right? So that's a good, I think that's a good point, too, that he could work with whoever it is there. and we'll see on that. Those are the two that are open. We've got some others that I think are going to be open. Denver is going to be interesting, certainly with a new ownership there. I don't know. What's your general feel when there's a new owner coming in and there's a situation like this where a change has to be made? There's a holdover GM who's got a long contract. There's sort of a lot of thing. They're locked into Russell Wilson. What do you make of that kind of situation? Well, I think it comes down to the relationship and the chain of command for as far as the communication goes between, let's just say, George Payton, if he's the highest ranking football guy and the new owners. I know this when he hired Nathaniel Hackett, that was before the new owners came in officially. But if they had been identified, and you might be able to help me with that, had they been identified as an owner as a likely, you might have gone through some of this with them ahead of time. time. I know my time in Seattle, we had two owners for, gosh, I don't know, six or eight months. And so you do

juggle back and forth as the messenger. You have to message your ownership. They have to be involved. But the Hackett deal was done before the Walmart people took over. The trade for Russell Wilson, I can't remember when that happened. But the doubling down. It was March, like March 8th or something like that. And they had not taken over for that, for ownership, I don't believe at that point either. But the pain of Russell Wilson and the fact that I'm sure George has had to double down about Nathaniel Hackett and Russell Wilson to the new ownership group. Yeah, behind the scenes. All this is behind the scenes. But he had to pick his lane on those two acquisitions. Those are his big two acquisitions with the coach and the quarterback. And so I don't know where that stands with regard to ownership and how believable anything is from this point forward. Because let's face it, those have been swings and misses to this point. The big thing is, I think,

think Hackett's probably proved that he could be replaced. If the owners want to have their own coach, I totally get it. They might be stuck with the quarterback right now. And that's the elephant in the room for me is not only if you're going to make a change at the head coaching spot, who wants to come in there and deal with that. That's going to be, have to be planned out and talk through at nauseam before I'm taking that job. No matter if I'm Sean Payton or some other assistant somewhere else, it's the elephant that has to be dealt with. So if you're a coach, about to go in there. And let's just say there is a coach about to go in there.

And they decide, you know what? I'm going to go to, I was looking at MuellerF Football.com. It's got some of the best content anywhere. And I know Randy does some consulting. I'm going to call Randy as a consultant and say, hey, Randy, I'm thinking about putting my name in the hat for this Bronco job. What do you think? Is there any way I, you know, I'm a coach of quarterbacks?

Is there any way I can get this guy Wilson going in the right direction? Is he really this bad? What do you think? should I try to take this job or should I run for the hills? I don't think I could advise someone to not take the job, but I do think you better have a plan B. Let's just face it. You may or may not be able to fix Russell by installing a different offense that fits his skill set.

Because I don't think his skill set was this when he was at peak powers in Seattle, and it's diminished since then. Whether they can regenerate his legs, his quickness, his ability to get away from rush, his processing, I don't know. doubtful of that. So my advice to that coach, to answer your question is, you probably have have another option. And his contract may make him where he's, he's on the team. Russell Wilson's not going anywhere. So we're probably going to have to do, make do with less as a team built, because that money is just going to sit there. But we can still find a quarterback, whether it's a

veteran somewhere or a second or third round pick somewhere because we've limited ourselves with, with draft capital. I just think you're going to have to have another option that you can at least open the job to compete. It's a tough pill to swallow if you can't resurrect Russell Wilson, but I think you've got to go into it knowing and having thought through a plan B or a plan C at quarterback. And I don't have an answer for that right now. Maybe when we dig into the draft quarterback guys, you'll have one that, hey, maybe there's

a guy in the second or third round that we can get. And then it doesn't matter if you play him or not. It doesn't matter who's paying, whose freight, the best guy is going to play. And so that would have to be a conversation that I would definitely advise a coach to have to have with whoever, whether it's the GM or the owners or whoever. Okay, I understand we got to keep Russell. But can we do this? Can we do that and have some options in play? Yep.

I want to get to Arizona. We'll hit on Houston first. I think Arizona is interesting. but Houston, man, I mean, is there any way? I never really, we never really felt like the Levy Smith was their choice anyway. So I'm really not sure what to make of them, but it just feels like they're a team that used to get talked about a lot because of Deshaun Watson stuff. And now they're just sort of off the radar. Oh, yeah, they could be a place too.

But guess what? They're going to have a lot of high picks. Yeah. And the Jack Easterbee situation, he's gone. So the skies have cleared a little bit for the future there. It's actually not a bad, might not be a bad job. I guess it now depends what happens with the GM. Yeah, I think they're irrelevant for now, but they could be relevant quickly based on just the things that you've said.

Here's the hard part if I'm Nick Cesario, the GM. I've hired two coaches who you could say both about the same, just what you said. Nobody thought Lovie was the long-term answer. Nobody thought David Cully was the long-term answer. Now we're going to hire a third coach in three years. That's unprecedented. I don't think anybody's ever got that opportunity. I don't care how long of a contract Nick has.

So I feel like there's probably some give and take with regard to his future if they hire a third coach. I think that's a place that you might see a veteran coach, you know, let's just say a Sean Payton or somebody like go in there, but bring an assistant GM or bring somebody with him that can work with Nick to kind of make enough change to where we're actually building this team and getting better. This is year three. And I don't see a lot of getting better and a lot of progress. risk being made. That's the hard part. What's so interesting about this, Randy, is I feel like, yes, technically he's taking two swings at head coaches. I feel like they're both check swings. I feel like. Why though? Why? Because I feel like

he hasn't made his move. I feel like he hasn't made a move. These were all, oh, I guess we're not, we'll just hire this guy. They were all sort of like fallback moves. None of these felt like, oh, yep, I can see that. This is the guy that Nick Casario was going to get. I feel like they haven't even made a move for a coach, even though they're on their second coach. Do you feel any of that? No, I feel it exactly. They both are check swings, but I don't know. Do you get a third swing? I don't know. That's a hard one because you put yourself in that position. Maybe the first time around, you can say, well, I came on so late in the process, we had already lost the guys I wanted. Hey, he could have hired anybody he wanted last year, anybody. And I don't think they're dictated by money.

I don't think anybody says no. I think the ownership is willing to give you whatever you want. So if this is the best we could do of the process that we implemented, you know, maybe they blame these two hires on a Jack Easterby. I don't know. I mean, I don't know him. I don't know the process. But you're right. It's there's been something lacking. And now the question is, do you do it again?

Do you do a third one in three years? Well, we felt last year, though, when they were in that hiring cycle, remember the, the Flores stuff was coming down, lawsuits? And it was kind of like, remember there was talk about Josh McCown could be hired and it would have been a huge outrage. And so then they just go with Lovey Smith. And it's like at a certain point here, you have to have we charted our course or what? How long do you get before you chart your course, right? I mean, you can't just have forever. I like your analogy.

You've got to get a full cut at some point. I'm not going to go sit down if I don't get a full cut. And I don't know what transpired. I don't know how the process led them to where it did. But it's probably been too underachieving, you know, swings for sure. And now what are we going to do? I don't know. When does the owner, if he can, step in and just say, hey, enough, we're going to hire Sean Payton. We're going to give a first round pick and we're going to pay $10 million. That's enough. Let's move on.

They're the team that can really do it and needs it. The credibility, the whole thing, the direction. Yes. They have the picks, right? So. And Houston is a great football town, Mike. I was lucky to spend some time there. These people are passionate. They love it. I feel bad for them. First, the Deshaun Watson deal and the whole way that played out. Then they've been stuck in this mud for two and a. a half years. Ever since, you know, Bill O'Brien left, they've really made no progress. So it's just, I feel bad for the people. So it should be better than that. They never should have moved the weather's, Randy. I want to love you blue back, you know, I want all that. Those days. It was a great

town for, it was a great town for football and it should be again. Arizona. Okay, we're going to talk about the Cardinals. And Peter King did a great job laying out this Cardinals timeline of, of, futility or bad stuff. And I've narrowed it down. I was joking. I was, you know, Peter writes, I don't know how many thousand words each week. I felt like a few thousand of them just to list all the bad things that have happened in Arizona. But this is pretty darn good here. Okay, December 6th, 2021, the Cardinals were in the driver's seat for the one seat and the NFC playouts at 10 and 2. Since then, they're 5 and 12, okay. And this is the boiled down list of what Peter wrote. But okay, so since then, the last 51 weeks, Arizona has lost to 1, 11 and 1 Detroit by 18, lost by

by 23 to the Rams in the valid card round. And really one of the most discouraging, disparating playoff performances I can remember. I mean, just absolutely defined them with a stain. Throttled. Yeah, throttled. They were pounded into submission. Peter didn't write that part.

I'm adding to Peter's writing. You edited Peter's work. I'm going to tell him. I'm going to tell him. Oh, yeah. I'm adding Peters. So anyone get mad. It's all on him, but I'm adding to some of this.

They paid big money to the GM, the head coach, the quarterback, when they didn't have to do so. They had the homework clause fiasco with Kyler Murray, the quarterback. They traded first and third round picks to Baltimore for Hollywood Brown, who is not exactly lighting it up and is now hurt. They had their best player, D'Andre Hawkins, suspended for six games. They lose by four touchdowns for the 49ers in Mexico,

where, as Peter Nelson, the Cardinals have NFL international marketing rights. I don't even know that. And they're trying to cultivate a strong fan base. It was a home game for crying out loud from the 49ers. The fans there are unbelievable. They have Kyler Murray on pace for a worse statistical season than Zach Wilson, Davis Mills, and Taylor Heineke. And then they have dismissed multiple coaches for incidents involving mistreatment of women, including their offensive line coach, their running back coach. Unbelievable, isn't it, Randy?

And that's an unbelievable run. I'm trying to think of other runs like this. This is kind of Cleveland Browns-ish when you add all those things together. Yeah, I agree. I think it's been a, I wouldn't call it a downhill slide. I'd think it's been a downhill avalanche and I don't know how it stops. And really for me, it goes back to the end of that Mexico City game that Peter referenced in that I saw players, I don't want to say lay down, but they were definitely making business decisions. And anytime I see players making business decisions, I take that as a referendum of they don't believe what they're doing and they're going to save

themselves for the next staff. And when I saw that, it sent me back a little bit to how did how did we get to this? And I thought more than anything, probably the, the doubling down on the GM, the head coach, and the quarterback in the offseason may have led a long way to this dispirited effort. I think you can't fool players. And least of all, you can't fool your locker room. They know if leaders are what they should be or shouldn't be. Nobody has to say anything. They just no. And I felt like when they gave Kyler that kind of money, then they put the homework clause in there. You and I were kind of snickering about it. Really, everybody was. So do you think the block room isn't snickering and playing with that behind the scenes? I promise you they are. And they see it every

day. So they're saying, gosh, we're going to pay this amount of money for this. And then we're going to pay the coach who has the same agent. And he's going to get his based on what? Our collapses the last two years in the second half of the season. So he's really done nothing to take the target off his back. And then the orchestrator of all of it, really, Steve Kime, who's the GM, who as we see if you watch hard docs, meets with the coaches every week and kind of lays the land out for them, another leadership question for where they're at right now. So I just think that players saw this and they're willing to say, okay, I get it. I'm just going to save it. I'm going to pump the brakes here and save it for the next group.

and my body's only going to take so much. And I don't think and I don't believe we're headed in the right direction. That's kind of my take. I could be totally off. But no. Judging the locker room from afar, I think can be done in some instances. Yeah. And you said you can never fool the players.

And when you hold up Kyler and Murray and Cliff Kingsbury and reward them, they know whether that's justified or not. Yes. And I think we would have all said, well, we kind of want to see more. You know, we'd like to see more. Yeah. Why? Why would we do this? Yeah.

Yeah, why would you do it? It's almost like you're, it's almost like you were trying to do a victory lap that, hey, we did it. We got the right guys. Yeah. Hey, these are them. You know, just kind of. Yeah, based on what? We hadn't beaten anybody.

Yeah. So now I think we ask, you know, what should happen next? You're obviously not going to get out of the Tyler Murray deal for a little bit. So he's going to be there and probably should be. I mean, he's a talented quarterback at least. He has some flaws and inconsistencies. but you probably are going to roll with him for another year or two. A name that came to mind of is actually talking to someone about this last weekend,

just off the cuff, hey, who should they get? The person mentioned Lincoln Riley they should get. But what do you think, if you're going to go from Kingsbury, what type of a coach, or does that make sense? What do you think about the next guy? Well, I think they'll probably end up going a different direction, which most of these franchises do. When I say a different direction, Lincoln Riley's been a college coach his whole life.

Cliff had been a college coach his whole life. So even though I do think Lincoln Riley is a step in the right direction, for one, I think he'd be crazy to leave SC for a job like this. He can stay at SC for 10 years and give out 85 scholarships a year and have a lot more margin for error than he'll have if he goes to the Arizona Cardinals and has one first round pick every year. The landscape for team building is hard. Nick Sabin and I used to have this conversation a lot.

he'd say in a kidding fashion, we only have one first drum pick. I said, yeah, coach, we got to make it work. We only get one. I said, man, in college, I get five or six every year. I said, I understand. It's not for everybody. It's a tough, it's a tough road to build in the NFL. So I don't think Lincoln would do something like that,

especially at an unproven place where Arizona has had more step backs than step forward. But I like the idea. I just don't know that it's going to be the right fit. I think, to answer your question, you're probably looking at a more veteran-oriented coach. someone maybe with some skins on the wall at the NFL level, time will tell. And again, I don't know that they're even going to change. They just paid all these guys all this money. I don't know where Michael Bidwell weighs in on any of this.

Yeah, what are they going to test? It's been kind of a mess. It's just kind of been a mess all the way around. And maybe they just try to say, hey, we get a regroup in the offseason. But it just seems like they're a team that needs more than a cosmetic change at this part. But they've committed themselves in areas where it's sort of hard. undo some of those for now. No doubt. All right. That's probably our last one. I think the Chargers are above 500. They've been talked about. You got anything on them or do you think we just wait a little

while? Yeah, I don't think the Chargers, and when you're talking specifically about Brandon Staley, I don't think he's going anywhere. I think his relationship with the front office is solid. I don't think the front office wants to hire a fourth coach. So I think they're going to ride this out, whether fans like it or not really doesn't matter. I think they're going to ride this out. I think they're going to ride this out. They've got to find a way to build a deeper team, I think, and have more guys because the injury bug seems to hit them every year and they run out of players. But I do think they're going to stay the course. I can't see these kind of changes that we've talked about with some of these other franchises happening with the Chargers at all. And it was a big win for them. They beat Arizona. They're

above 500 and they can still finish with the winning record and we'll see where it leads them. You talked about the injuries and no one wants to hear it as an excuse, but it's always a seems to be a reason to some degree for them. And I noticed this week that I think Justin Herbert has had 27 pass attempts this season with Mike Williams and Keenan Allen on the team. And it was 700 and something over the previous two years combined. So, you know, as much as people have complained about the offense in Joe Lombardi and some of that could be, you know, maybe they could do a better job. That's a huge thing, I think, to just not have your guys to throw to.

And they've got to find a way to rectify that, whether they get new guys maybe. Or something because this just can't keep happening. I agree. All right, let's move on to the Bengals. Bengals might be winning over the football GM. You know, we both took Tennessee against Cincinnati last week. I think we shot as a contrast of teams on the different ends, maybe, of the toughness, grit, punch you in the face scale.

But the Bengals won the game without Jamar Chase. And obviously, they were in the Super Bowl last year. We love Joe Burrow. Maybe it's time for a little revisit on the Bengals before they face the chiefs. If they beat Kansas City this week, of course, we'll be talking about it. But let's talk about them now a little bit. What do you think, have you come around on them or change your tune? Well, I agree, Mike, and that we've both been skeptical.

And I think there's been reason for that. But I am coming around a little bit to say that. And I'm not saying it tongue and cheek. The defense sold me after this week. That's really what did. In a league that offensive plays, offensive playmakers get all the credit. We know Joe Burrow. We know Jamar Chase.

We know what they've done offensively. I was really impressed with the defense and what Lou Amor. How do you say his last name? And Arumo. Yes. What he said has done an outstanding job. And I know we outside of Cincinnati probably had never heard of him before the Super Bowl run last year. But to his credit, he has kept things together and I think produced a really good solid defense.

And let me just say this. They held Tennessee to 63 yards rushing, two rushing first downs, 0 for three in the red zone. And they aren't that complicated on defense. But they use different alignments. Their numbers in the box vary. Their coverage is simple but not, you know, but they're fundamentally sound. And I think the team plays really fast. That's a hard thing for defense coordinators to equate in their.

own mind. They've got to be simple enough that we can play fast, but yet complicated enough where the offense can't figure us out. And I think what Lou has done there has really done a good job with regard to that. I think their design and the adjustments that they make week in and week out kind of go with what we've been saying, or at least I've been saying forever, is that the second half of seasons are all about coaching. And I'm not so sure that didn't have a lot to do with their run last year. It was a lot about coaching, especially on the defensive side. Now, they have Joe Burrow to lean on on the other side, but defensively, this team makes adjustments. They have players that buy in.

I didn't see people and don't see people running free like I see all around the league, busted coverages and things like that. Plus, the other thing that tells me that they have complete buy-in from a locker room, especially a defensive guys, is I always look at this, and we talked about this with Arizona. Tell me how the secondary tackles and show me that, and I'll tell you if a team's buying in or not. Yeah, that's a great. You know what? I thought of Green Bay when you said that. Yeah. The secondary tackling and the effort that they give tell me if they believe in what's going on. So it's a hard, it's a hard one to follow. But in this case, I see a secondary with the Bengals that are buying in big time.

Mike Hilton is their nickel guy. And I saw him make two or three tackles last week, Mike. That thought he was Dick Butkus. And he's a little corner playing in the sub packages. And so I really watch the tackling. And this team's giving it up. They're on. Every week they've been buying in and sacrificing their body. And so that tells me they've really bought in. So I guess to answer your question, yes, I'm buying in a little bit on the Bengals now. I'm kind of changing course. And I would say this. After the game, I don't know how much you saw of that game, but there was genuine giddiness and happiness in Cincinnati's locker room and with the players after they won that game. And it tells me that one, they were tired of being criticized. They were tired of being

told and thought of like we have thought of them really here on the podcast and they wanted and they let it out so they exhaled the locker room afterwards i saw where the coach said hey everybody's talking about our schedule being murderers row this or that his response was they got to play us how about that all these other teams got to play us so it's a tough schedule for everybody else too and i thought that was a great thing to say and it hit home for me so sorry to be so long-winded but i love it the defensive philosophy that Lou brings every week to let's play to win the game is actual fact, and I saw it on tape when I dove into their defense. I love secondary tackling as a proxy for buy-in because it is just a great way to think of it.

When I watch some of these games and you see those types of decisions made, one of the ones that kind of bothers me that I see a fair amount of time is, you know, when a guy's probably going to score. Yeah. And he's kind of coming in at the one or two yard line. And it's not even to actually see the DB kind of pull up like, hey, it puts his hands up like to breeze past him. Yeah. Easy for me to say. I'm not sticking my nose in there and risking an injury.

But I always kind of like it that the idea that we're, you know, that protecting every last blade of grass, I want to see that from the team. I think that type of stuff matters, even if the guy probably is going to score. Like, how are you playing? How are you laying it on the? line and the thing in the secondary is a great way to look at it because that's where you see a lot of those decisions being made. Always. And they're not getting paid to tackle, they would say. But when they do it, they're doing above and beyond. And that's a pretty good signal as to if we have a buy-in or not. Yeah. I love the Lou Anarumo story in hiring because he really, that was a job.

It seemed like they were even having trouble filling, you know. It was he wasn't a, it wasn't seen as a sexy name. And he just seems to have been just a quality, good hiring. And think how important that is for, think where Zach Taylor was at at one point in this whole thing. And obviously they got Joe Burrow, and that's a huge part of this. Without him, this is probably, we're not talking about anybody in Cincinnati right now. But that's been a really good hire under the radar. Maybe we'll see his name in coming up for some of these head coaching candidate interviews just to check him out, see what he's thinks. Yeah, you see Matt Everflus going from the Colts to the Bears, lose no different. You see Wink Martindale always mentioned here and there.

Lou's not as flashy as them, but he's every bit as competent. So I could see his name coming up for sure. All right. Another name that's come up has been Greg Roman. And he is the now pretty long time offensive coordinator for the John Harbaugh coached Baltimore Ravens. Before that, he was offensive coordinator for the Jim Harbaugh coached 49ers. And before that, he was at Stanford with Jim Harbaugh.

and Stanford is looking for a head coach after David Shaw announced his resignation from the program. They're going to look at Greg Roman. And I think that's very interesting, Randy, because it feels a little bit like Lamar Jackson's career. I don't know. Crossroads is a little dramatic of a word, but maybe not. Their offense hasn't been as good lately. There's, I'm sure, some personnel issues surrounding that. But it kind of leads to the question, if they were to lose Greg Roman, what should they do with their offense? What can they do with their offense? We know how Lamar Jackson

enables a coordinator with all the special things that he can do, but does he limit one too? Or is this the opportunity to go in another direction and open this thing up and develop more of a dropback pass game? What do you think? Well, I think it's a little bit of all the above. I agree with your take on Greg Roman. I think if I'm Greg Roman and have a chance to go to Stanford, I'm gone. I'm moving, gone, done, end of story. For all the reasons. And that's not just a run from the NFL. I just think it's a, obviously, it'll be a better financial move for him and really a longevity move, if nothing else.

But I think that not necessarily Lamar is at a crossroads. I think the franchise is at a crossroads when it comes to quarterback. When you combine the ongoing contract negotiation that's been happening for really two years now and no end to that still. You combine that with the type of offense that they, in my opinion, have to run with Lamar. There may be a room here for some other options. And I've said that for a couple years now. I'm probably not going to pay Lamar the $50 million a year and fully guarantee that he's been demanding.

But you have to unless you have another option. You can play it out with some tags for the next couple years. That's obviously an option. you're not committing long-term dollars, but you are committing big cap commitments to go year by year. That's the negative to those kind of deals. I think I would definitely look for an option at least to give us a chance going forward. I think the Ravens have found out this year they have more holes than they probably were willing to admit. And to do that, it's going to be hard if you have to pay a quarterback 50 million.

So I guess what I'm saying is there's a lot of reasons here to just think about everything being on the table. I don't know if they could run a different offense if Greg Roman wasn't there. I feel like the offense that they're running is more suited because Lamar's skill set than actually that's what Greg Roman wants to run. I don't know. Do you have a feeling on that? Well, I'm okay, let's let's buy that, though. But what I guess what is our evidence of him running something else?

Because I know he had Kaepernick for well, but he had Alex Smith too. And it was a very run-heavy offense. I think of him as more of one of the run-game coordinators. most of these offensive play collars are past game guys. Then the offensive line coach does the run game, right? That's the way it is for most teams. Roman has always struck me as kind of being the guy who loves to go into the lab as the run game designer. And then, shoot, this has been sometimes a criticism even of a Kyle Shanahan who's very well regarded,

that the dropback pass game is limited. And then you get into that whole chicken of the egg. Is it limited because of who he has a quarterback? Right, right. Is it limited because that's the way he wants to do it? And so what evidence do we have that Greg Roman wants to actually do a more dynamic dropback pass game? Do we have that anyway? Yeah, no, I think you're right.

And those are valid points. I don't know his history like he just laid out. Was he Andrew Luck? Did he have luck? What's that? Did he have Andrew Luck at Stanford? Well, even when he did, their run game, even at Stanford was thought of, I think, more highly than their past game. They've always been a run scheming offense, even at Stanford.

when Harbaugh was there. So I think there's some merit to that. And he was, yeah, he was tight ends coach there, an offensive line coach with Stanford, so he wasn't calling it. But, yeah. Was that,

was that Pep Hamilton? Was he there then? That was 2009 and 2010. So I just, I guess I just haven't seen enough to know. Yeah. And he comes from that offensive line background a little bit. I mean, he's a tight ends and offensive line.

He's coached quarterbacks, too. It's just, I guess I'm not sure that I say for sure that I agree with you. Okay, maybe he doesn't want to do it this way all the time, but I'm not sure he's itching it to do a different way either. And shoot, when he was in Buffalo, didn't he have Tyrod Taylor? Yes. So it seems like he's always had somebody who you could say the quarterback's the reason

that he's doing that, you know. And so I guess this is the question, because I've had a lot of conversations, obviously, with people about Lamar Jackson. do you think that he can sort of round out his game more and that they could get him some better offensive past weaponry and play a little bit more of a past game and open up the throttle a little bit in that way? Or do you think, no, geez, we better just keep doing it this way? Well, I think you can always upgrade your personnel. There's no doubt about that. I think they can find ways to give him better options on the perimeter. I think they can find that.

They could even add speed at running back that they may or may not have in the group. So they can find ways to score from longer distances, which to me means opening up your playbook just from a personnel standpoint. So I think those are options. And I think really the crossroads may come from where John Harbaugh is and where the hierarchy is in regard to our style of offense and how far this can take us. This offense they run now has not taken them where they want to go. At some point, the definition, what is it called? Yeah, insanity. Insanity is to keep doing the same thing over.

and over again. So at some point, they got to ask that question. I don't know. I don't have an answer. They were always that team. Even when they paid Joe Flacco, Randy, remember when he won the Super Bowl and he got a huge contract? Even throughout that, they were able to keep the defense and special teams in the top five or top 10 of the league. Now what we're seeing is they don't have that. The defense is not what it was, and it doesn't look like it's going to be what it was. So if the great era of 20 to 25 years of Raven defense, I mean, just think of that legacy, they've been the best defense in the league or certainly over the last 20 years, if they are now going to be like everybody else and just up and down on defense and now

you're going to maybe pay Lamar Jackson and it gets harder to do that, then what could be written five years from now or down the road, we'll be looking back and saying, wow, I guess Ozzy Newsom was pretty important there, right, or that type of a thing because they've always been able to take for granted that they had great defense. And if they don't have that and they're going to start paying Lamar Jackson, and then try to run a limited offense, what makes us think they're going to get any further than they've gotten already. Yeah, no, I agree.

We've just listed four or five reasons that they probably need to open the playbook a little bit. So maybe we've answered our own question. We've kind of come full circle. I don't know. I just think it's without question the defense isn't what it has been. Whether Wink Martindale leaving and hiring this young kid to run their defense is a big part of it. Maybe it's part of it. But I'm thinking their personnel isn't what it was either.

And I agree with you, if we're going to have a run first oriented offense, we better have a hell of a defense. And I don't see the combination being there right now. So I think there is change in the wind, and I just don't know how high up the pole it goes. Rani, unless we borrow a couple timeouts from Jeff Saturday here, we're going to have to, we're going to run out of time on our podcast. Let's just get into the GM notebook. What do you got in there? And then we'll get to our picks. Well, we've talked about a few of the things that I had in there.

There's a couple things that I steal from your notebook. I'm reading over your shoulder. Hey, you're like half the other teams in this league, stealing from my notebook. Yeah, what do you got? Yeah. Okay. One thing I do think we need to hit on, and I had this in my notes, is the Mike White performance last week.

We've talked a lot about Zach Wilson and his ability to not run the things that they've given him in New York. Mike White played a really good game last week, and there's a lot of jet fans that think they found their quarterback. And I went into this with the idea of, well, let's pump the brakes a little bit. I haven't seen enough of Mike White yet to say we've got our franchise quarterback. But I'll say this, after watching the one game, he showed me a lot of things that I didn't know he had. And it made me do a little more research to kind of lead us to believe that, you know,

they might have some more answers than we think, at least those of us on the outside. I think if he continues to play like this, and his play was anticipatory, it was instinctive, he processed. He did all the things that we had not been seen from Zach Wilson that led me to believe, hey, this guy's, he's got a chance if he continues to put a body of work together. Now, in the past, last year, in particular, when they did give him this job, he kind of regressed. And it didn't put all of the same week by week stacking of good performances together. But this kid came out in 2018. So he's been around. He's on his second team. He was a fifth round pick of the Cal voice. So he's been highly thought of. And when you look at him, you forget, the guy's almost

six, five, he's 220 pounds. There's something to like. I mean, this guy stands in the pocket. He jumps into the, to the lanes. He's not afraid. He'll throw with people in his face. He's got a good enough arm to make all the throws from the pocket. They even last week had him rolling out a couple times and he made throws on the run. So I liked what I saw. Here's the ironic thing about it. Let's just say he plays good enough to keep this job for another month. And you help. me research this. He's a UFA at the end of the year. So wouldn't it be something if they just finally find their guy and then they lose them to the Washington commanders a week later when free agency opens? I would rather have this guy than Taylor Heineke. I'd rather have them than

a bunch of guys around the league. So it'll be interesting to see how this works out. But that was in the GM Notebook as a topic that we didn't discuss. I don't know if you have any thoughts on Mike White. Well, it is. Here's what I say. Unlike our listeners, I can peek into the GM note. I even know what the number two thing is. So the number two item plays into this because Randy, sometimes the backup quarterback that no one's thinking is going to be anything, spend some time in the background and works on his craft. And I watched Caitlin Kaler, who I work with at The Athletic, does this podcast series where she talks to backup quarterbacks.

And she had just by chance a month ago, she had talked to Mike White for like 40 minutes. And so she published this after he got the job. It was all before that. And just listening to him, you could tell whether it turns in anything or not. I mean, he's been taking his craft seriously. And so he's been watching this and probably learning from his mistakes and Zach Wilson's mistakes and seeing things. And now he is doing everything maybe the right way, right?

Trying to run the system. He's got maybe a clearer head. And that may lead us into the second note in our GM notebook regarding who. Well, the other guy is, and I had this ask of me by a Seattle media person this week and I hadn't really thought through it. The other one is Gino Smith. What do you do with Gino Smith now? he's 32 years old. He's been working in the dark for what, seven or eight years.

I mean, trust me, it's hard to do. Any of us that have had jobs at the top before, when you go back to working in the dark for a long time, it is a disciplined, long, lonely grind. And we've been lucky enough to have good jobs to put us there, but Gino had a starting job. And it went away. And he went and worked as a backup for all this time.

Now he's having some success. He's doing things that he's learned along the way. hey, we all know we'd be better at our job today than we were eight years ago if we just stayed and worked in the dark, no matter what the industry or your job is. Gino's done that. But here's the hard part for Seattle. What do you do going forward? The analytics people would put a chart out there and say, you've got to pay Gino $35 million a year now because that's what he's earned. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Now we're changing the, changing the criteria here. It's not on it. He's not on a one-year, likeable, cap-friendly deal if you do that. And can you use the body of work that he's put out in 10 weeks as a barometer for paying him on a long-term deal? Frankly, I couldn't do that. And I think Gino has played as well as anybody in the league, but I couldn't pay him long-term like that. I think you're more likely to see a Seattle team use a tag of some kind. Maybe it's a transition tag.

They'd probably be happy with compensation that they would get from him. and use an APIC to draft another guy to have a longer term plan in place as an option as well. What do you think about that? Well, I think Seattle will be emboldened by their decision to go away from Russell Wilson and have it work out when, frankly, they thought it was going to be Drew Locke, probably starting. I think this shows them, this allows them to double down on their program, right? Pete's program. And I don't think they think this whole thing turning this year is because of G-Node. I mean, they love what he's done.

But they're going to probably see this as, wow, shoot, we probably should have traded. Russell a year earlier and just get back to our program. We got the mojo in this program. We'll coach up. We'll coach up guys. We've done it before. Gino's doing it. Shoot, if we had to play Drew Locke, we'll be excited about that too. Isn't that Pete Carroll? So now, the thing about the Gino negotiation specifically is, even though he's had a really good year, I don't see a huge market out there of other teams going to 30 million a year, right? There's not going to be that. Is there? I don't know. I don't know. I don't think so, but yeah, I hadn't thought about it, to be honest with you. So, but I also think there's, I think Gino's best situation is in Seattle.

100%. And he's got a great thing there. He's been around and he deserves some coin off of this thing, right? But I think the worst thing that could happen would be for him to get more than he should or in a different situation and have it not go well and it's other, for other reasons. And then Seattle, you know, they're doing whatever. Now, the X factor here is that Seattle's going to probably have a really high pick from Denver. So they may be able to draft a quarterback. I think there's, if I'm Seattle, I'm thinking along those lines. Now, you're not going to know before the draft who you're going to get, but you know where you're going to pick. Denver's pick might be third. It might be fifth, might be eighth, wherever it is in there. And that could allow you to have a feel for what

should we do with Gino. They have to do a great job in anticipating and defining what his market's going to be. And then can you come to him, Randy, and just do a good deal? Can't you give him a couple years worth here and just set them up for life without going to the top number? I would definitely try to do that, and I'd probably have already tried. I think he's played well enough to where I think you can talk about a two or three year deal for sure. And as long as the numbers aren't crazy, I would make the deal. Because here's the other thing. It gives you options come draft time. You don't have to pick a quarterback at three, four, five, wherever that pick is up, like you said. It gives you options. And I think I would like to have him under contract

knowing that. And I think you're right. It's the best place for Gino. And it should be in his, you know, it should be top of his list to stay there. And I think it benefits both sides. I don't know where the tipping point is, though. That's the, that's the rough. How high do you go? Is it 20 million? Is it 22? I couldn't approach that 30 million. I just, that's, that's crazy to me. But, you know, somewhere between, you know, 15 and 20. I don't know. That's something that you got to, you got to figure out. but I would definitely be trying to do that. And I think you're right if I'm Gino, if I get some security. Maybe there's some guarantees involved there that give me 35, 40 million guaranteed.

I think he's crazy not to do that. Yeah. And when you look at the, you know, some of those middle class deals have kind of gone away, haven't they? Yeah, they have. So if you look right now, here's the guys that. So the bottom guy of the top guys, okay, the poorest rich guy of the top quarterbacks. Brady's at 25 million and then there's maybe a 10 or 12 people above that all the way up to 50, okay?

Then there's a huge gap where Baker Mayfield's at 15 and James Winston's at 14. And then we get down below 10 for the Marioadas and those guys. So to me, Gino Smith should be just what you said. He should be higher than Baker Mayfield and lower than Tom Brady, right? Yeah. I mean, put them, put them. And so the compromise between those two numbers is $20 million. There you go.

So do you do a two-year deal, a two-year 40, three-year-60, and then you can get it out, you pay them, but as a team, you can get out of it after the third year? Well, I would. After the second year, I mean, after the second year. You get out of it of the second year easily, you know? And if I'm Gino, I say fine. Just give me 30 guaranteed. And I'm set for life. And everybody gets what they want.

Yeah, I like that one, too. It is a fascinating one. A good problem to have. I love that idea, though, of having a top five pick. hey, if we eva a quarterback and love them, great. But if not, maybe we'd like one in the second round and we still have Gino. And then we've, you know, we got a couple of options there and we're not all in. And then we use that top five pick for the defensive lineman. They really bad they need. You're going to get a great player picking into top five if you don't limit your own options.

If you're looking to fill a need, that's a mistake. So get the best player available and I think he got a chance. Yeah. All right. Is that it for the GM notebook? Or you got one more? He robbed all my other parts, so we're done. I robbed it all. I think we're wasting our time anyway here. We probably should move on. Yeah, well, we did. The court of the listeners hit off.

Clock management here. Yeah, clock management. All right. In the picks last week, Sando was a resounding two and one, winning with Pittsburgh plus two and a half. Miami minus 11 I lost with Tennessee plus two. Randy was one of the one. He also won with Miami, gave the 11.

Houston was up or down 30 by 30 at the half. And then just like me, lost on Tennessee. And we tip our cap to Cincinnati. Yep. because we went with, they proved us wrong. This week, who do you got? Well, I got two games, and I've been stuck on this two team or two game cycle. And for some reason, I just kept him, maybe it's just that the NFL is so hard to make a pick on, right?

Especially when you use some point spreads. I'd like to have four or five games I felt good about and throw them all out there. But I happen to like Seattle, they're given four and a half to go to the Rams this week. I just think the Rams are playing out the string. I just haven't seen any juice in what they have going. I don't think Stafford is going to play this week. I think they've been very uninspired, and it's my opinion that the Rams can't wait for this season to end. I think Seattle still has some desperate measures.

They're coming off a loss that they felt like they should have won. That was a bad loss to the Raiders. So I like Seattle, even though they're five and a half point favorites on the road. And the other game that I picked was I like the Giants as a home underdog, one and a half points versus the commanders. I just think the Giants are a better team. I'll be honest with you. I think they're due to make a little run here. I don't love, and we've said this before, I hate to beat up Taylor Heineke all the time, but I don't love that. I see guys dropping interceptions that he throws every week. I don't think the Giants will,

and I just think they're a better team, and you get a home underdog. What do you think about Washington's defense, though? It's pretty good, isn't it? It is. I like their defense. They're finally playing to where their personnel has a chance. They've underachieved for two years there with the same scheme. So they're finally catching on. They're playing well enough. I like Dayball and what he will do from a planning standpoint. I think he will take advantage of some of the aggressiveness that Washington has shown,

especially the last couple weeks, and use it to run some traps, some counters, some screens. Dayball's pretty good at that. I'd like that matchup. Yeah. It feels like the Giants are just sort of due to win one here and get back going. and I just not sure if they're done or not. You know, maybe they've had it. The other thing was I saw Seattle at 7 and 8 as a favorite.

Where did you get 4.5 or was it 5 and a half? I got it out of my newspaper this morning. Well, good for you. All right. Hey, you're paid subscriber. All right. I wasn't sure on that one. So I'm sticking with it.

If you can believe the newspapers now, I'm talking to a newspaper guy here. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can believe. Okay. I'm on the interwebs, so that's why it's fun of mine. And, but hey, that's good. That's good. I put down a few games here.

Am I foolish for taking Tennessee and four against Philly and sort of doubling down on that maybe being a one-off by Tennessee last week? And they go to Philly who, and maybe they're able to sort of make Philly work for it more. I think Philly hasn't hit the skids by any means, but I think they, you know, they've suffered a couple personnel losses. And I think they can be made to be a little bit one-dimensional maybe by a good team. Tennessee is going to look at that film of Green Bay's defense. I would love to see Mike Rable coaching the Green Bay defense after last week. I think Tennessee has a chance to make it a field goal game. What do you think?

I think they're licking their wounds. They probably thought they should have beat Cincinnati. They didn't. And again, I always go back to who's more desperate. I do think Philly's going to hit a roadblock here or two. This might be one of them. So I'm not against that pick at all. Yeah, because I kind of look at Philly's schedule.

I'm like, is this team just going to win, lose one or two games all the whole year? You know, you probably lose a couple here. Maybe that's one where I'll take the four. points with a battle tested variable team on the road there. I also am inclined to take Cleveland minus seven. I think it's a little bit of a wild card situation with a new quarterback for the Browns. But Houston, wow, it can't be too good.

So I'll take Cleveland. I'll give the seven. It certainly worked out last week with, you know, whatever it was, 11 points given with Miami. And tiptoeing up to this line on the third game. I'm going to stay away from it. I'm going to stay away from Vegas plus one and a half against the Chargers. I was tempted to take the Raiders, but I think they're a little bit hard to trust.

But that was one I was just kind of looking at. I don't know if you have an opinion on the game. Had the Raiders not, and I think the running back from the Raiders, Josh Jacobs. He plays tough. He covered for Josh McDaniel, in my opinion. I did not like some of the things that Josh McDaniel did last week in the game against Seattle. And I thought Josh Jacobs made up for it.

it. I just don't know if they're going to be capable of doing that again. So although I see where you're going with the Raiders, I'm just, Josh made a couple curious play calls and some other things that just made me a little nervous. I don't know. I don't know if I could pick them just based on that. And I know they won the game. So maybe I'm just a little bit of a skeptic. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I talked myself out of it too, you know, but it's just sort of one of those where, yeah, we'll see. Josh Jacobs, by the way, they're an interesting team, the Raiders, to me, because they paid guys like Waller and Renfro who aren't playing, and Josh Jacobs looks like the guy I want to pay. And I know we talk about paying running backs and all of that. I'm not talking about that.

I'm just talking about the way he's playing right now. Hats off. That's a tough player who's playing hard and bringing it. And without him, they wouldn't have a whole lot going for him. Between him and the rusher, and you help me with the rushers now? Max Crosby, yeah. That's the guys. I want on my team. That's the heart and soul of my team is those guys like that. And then nothing against Derek Carr, I get it. But those two guys to me, especially in the Seattle game, those are the guys I want, I want to go to war with. Yep, I really like that too for them. So we'll

see how it works out for them going forward. Randy, let's get the heck out of here before we take too much more time. But first, I'm going to tell everybody, you can find Randy Mueller's work at MuellerFootball.com. You can find him on Twitter at Randy Mueller underscore. Randy Mueller underscore. work. You can find me, Mike Sando, on the Athletic and at Sando, NFL. It's snowing outside here. Do you have snow? Is it snowing right now? It's been snowing forever in Idaho, so I don't think it's ever going to stop. You mentioned it. So we'll try to dig you out here if we can get out. So we've got a basketball game tonight. We'll see if we can get out of here too. But let's get out of this podcast and do it again next week. What do you say? Sounds good, Mike. See you next week. All right, man.

This was the Athletic Football Show.