The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Football GM: WR deals, QB situations and NFL Calendar

Episode Date: June 1, 2024

In this edition of the Football GM Mike and Randy discuss the wide receiver market and how it never ceases to amaze them. Then the guys take a look at evolving QB situations around the league. After that we look at how the NFL calendar could change.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show's Football GM podcast. Welcome, everybody, the Football GM podcast. Mike Sando here, along with the GM, Randy Mueller. And Randy, the NFL calendar may change at some point here in the future. If the players get their way, my gosh, I was reevaluating all the vacations that you usually try to take in the summer and all that. We'll get to some of that. But the fun part of the calendar that keeps going has to do with these wide receiver contracts. Before we get to Jalen Waddle, how you doing?

I'm doing great. Good to be back with you again. And I agree, the offseason calendar may or may not change. Some of us who have been around a long time, what do they say if you hang on to something long enough? What goes around comes around, right? We didn't have any offseason calendar to use in the 80s and 90s either because we had no OTAs. There were no such thing. Our players really didn't come back in until after the draft.

So maybe that's what we're going to get a version of. But yeah, we can dive into some of that. That'll be fun. But the roller coaster ride of the receivers and the resetting of the markets is been interesting. And we've talked about it. It seems like for the last month, but it happened again this week. Well, this one's fun, Randy, in Miami because they're such an interesting team, you know, with all the stuff they've got going on and they've been good, but they haven't gotten over the hump.

The clock's ticking a little bit here for them. They've seen, you know, some roster attrition this offseason. and they couldn't resign Christian Wilkins, or at least they didn't decide to. They've got a looming potential contract situation with their quarterback to a tongue of Aloha. They're in this kind of window here trying to keep it open. Jalen Waddle, good young receiver for them.

They take him to number four in the NFL's wide receiver pecking order if we go by average per year. He'd be at 28 and a half. He's behind A.J. Brown, Ammonra, St. Brown, and his own teammates. Tyreek Hill. They didn't really have to do this deal with him now. They did.

Maybe they're getting ahead of what they think's going on in this market. They don't want to have to go higher later. But there's a lot of directions we could go with this, Randy. You've looked at the wide receivers. Big Waddle fan? I am. I think his skill set is evident. I don't think it takes any geniuses to figure out what he can do because he's one of those guys that's very similar to Tyreek Hill.

He runs fast. He changes the way defenses have to do. defend you. So from that standpoint, I'm not disappointed or surprised that they rewarded him. I'm only a little surprised at the timing of it. But really, when you think about that as well, I think there's pros and cons to doing it. When I did the free agent prognostications for a year from now, in other words, next year's UFAs, he wasn't on the list because he had an option year that was available the following year. So they really have him for two more years. So they elected, they did dolphins to do something sooner.

So that part of it surprised me a little bit. And they've taken him into rarefied air. Like you mentioned, he's going to be up there. And this gives him two in the top five of APY wide receivers. Obviously, they've decided that this is what they want to do. But as we dig into it, I think it'll make sense to some listeners, that's for sure. He's a young, fast, talented guy who I don't think in any way has reached his peak yet. One interesting thing with him is his percent of team target share, 19 percent.

All these other guys making money around 30 percent. So it's not like he's been a huge driver of just, you know, volume, right, like some of these other guys are. Maybe that's a little bit of the size thing or just a little bit of their offense. Are you okay, though, going this high? You've talked about that. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Some of these teams, like you had some reservations about Ammanra St. Brown.

I mean, you like them, but you don't love them enough to really. want to go that high, they have drafted Waddle super high. Is he going to be able to justify that contract, even though you like him? Well, I think in time he will. I think it has repercussions with regard to what happens with Tyreek Hill. Don't forget, Waddle, I think is 23, 24, something like that. Hill is 30 this year. So they're kind of setting themselves up for the future. But you're right, there's only one ball that these guys play with. So explosive plays and opportunities are somewhat limited by just the amount of plays you get in the ballgame nowadays. I think we talked a little bit about the usage,

and that's evident by his numbers. When you really look at Jalen Wattel's numbers, 77 catches last year, there are many guys who had way more than that. 49 first down catches, guys that were way more productive than that. You mentioned Amman St. Brown. I think he was in the 90s. Tyreek Hill had 84 first down catches. So those things that I would measure from a numerical standpoint,

don't necessarily jump out of you with regard to Jalen Walth. 31 explosive plays, that's 15 yards or more. I would have thought there would have been more of those. But, you know, he played 55, 60 percent somewhere in that range from scrimmage. So there's just not going to be a lot. When you have 65 plays and you're playing 65 percent of them or 60 percent of them, their opportunities aren't going to be there for everybody. And now you throw OBJ in the mix.

I think Miami would be happy if OBJ did. did what he did last year. And his production last year had half the world screaming that he's overpaid already. So it's just about opportunities. I think it's also about not necessarily trying to measure this on paper. I think you've got to really deep into the player's skill set and what he does to defenses and the opportunity it may lend others on the offense or the philosophy of the offense. So there's pros and cons in signing this guy long term when they didn't necessarily have to. Yeah, if I'm them longer term, you mentioned this is what's fascinating, the part of keeping a team together and maximizing your chances and trying to keep guys happy and just managing the situation. If I'm them, like Waddle is fairly easy of their guys to invest in and just say, you know what, we feel pretty good about him.

We know what he is. We sort of know what he's going to be. This feels somewhat safe. I think the one that if I were them, I would just want to kind of be playing out the string a little bit with Tyreek Hill. he's got a couple functional years left on his deal. Let that go. Don't touch that. Maybe I'm drafting a receiver this next off season to give myself some options.

But with Tua, pretty happy with how he played last season, but I would love to just keep buying time, Randy. I don't want to do a $50 million a deal with him. I think just the nature of his career with having the one really good year last year, before that a lot of questions about his injuries and really still questions about how much you win because of him, as much as you win with him, I would want to just, let's just go. Let them play it out this year. Don't enter into a big deal. And shoot, even if I have to franchise tag him, I'm okay with that with Tua. I'm just trying to buy some time without making a too much of a commitment, right?

Well, I would think so. I think this deal with Waddle definitely has ramifications throughout the rest of the team build. I think I agree with you with regard to Tua. I feel like also that if they were going to sign Tua this offseason and they were all on the same page as to what the value was, that may have already happened. And because it hasn't, I think there's probably some wiggle room on both sides as to, hey, we're not really valuing or seeing value in Tua's deal right now that is through the same lens. So my guess is the dolphins are green with your philosophy and they're going to wait it out a little bit, just see where it's at. I would be nervous about paying him $50 million a year. There's no doubt. And they have time on their side. I don't think it,

It benefits them to reset the quarterback market as well at this point. But in order to reset any market or not reset it, you've got to give yourself options. And I think Waddle signing gives them options with Tyreek for sure, mainly based on just lay the years out. They had Waddle for the next two years, but at a lower number. Now they've secured him at really franchise type numbers for 24, 25, and then the numbers go up after that. But that's when Tyreek becomes a free agent after two years. Really, he has another year, a third year on his deal left. But at 56 million, that's not really a deal.

So his deal will find its way to free agency if they don't sign him that after 2025. So it gives them some options, sign in Waddle. I like it. I also think this, securing speed is always a good thing. And I think they see the value of what these fast guys, due to defenses. Everybody says Mike McDaniels is a run game savant. I get it, but it also tells me that he understands what two fast guys can do in defending the run game because you're not going to see safeties drop down in the middle to get our numbers up so we can stop the run when you have

Waddle and Tyreek both running by you. They're going to be on their horses to get back. And so it's going to help their run game as well. Yeah, and they did not move Waddle past Tyreek Hill. I think that's important for trying to keep some peace on the home front. But we will see. We could see at any time some of these other receiver deals get done with a Justin Jefferson, a C.D. Lamb. They could really push it higher to the point where Tyree Kill is left behind in a noticeable way. I think that could be a little bit interesting in terms of, hey, if you're Tyree Kill,

you realize, hey, I'm the reason for the season here. You know, I'm the best player on this team by far. And if I'm now looking at, hey, how am I going to get that next bite of the Apple, do I'm going to really wait two more years and be 32 years old trying to get it? I want to swing now. So I think that will just be interesting to see how that plays out. Maybe it's fine. Maybe it's totally smooth.

But it isn't always that way. The players determine that, right? If you or Tyreek Hills agent, maybe you want to, you know, get some assurances here. Wait a minute. Things are shifting in this receiver market around the league. Now you've paid Waddle. What about my guy, right? At a certain point.

There's no doubt. I would be a little bit nervous about long-term effects on what this does for Tyreek, just because if his contract isn't assessed now, it'll be at age 32 or later that it is. And receivers don't want to be free agents when they're 33 years old. That's just father time working against them. And so that may have some long-term effects on that. But having done that already now with Waddle, if you're the dolphins, you've at least supplied a safety net. So let's just take it one step further and say that Waddle's not happy when all these other deals get done, Justin Jefferson, Iyuk, Jemar Chase, these deals happen. Tyreek screams he wants more money, but they don't have to cave into that because you know

what? They think Jalen Waddle has the exact same skill set. And from what I've seen on tape, his skills are very similar to Tyreek in that he can separate in tight coverage, he can separate once underway. he can make defenses have to align differently to deal with his speed just the way they do now with Tyreek. So it just gives the Dolphins value in that they have some fallback position to having to go all in on Tyreek again.

And as we know, Mike, and I know nobody wants to talk about this, there are always, there's baggage, there's other things that we know that have followed Tyreek along his way. And this gives you insurance against anything that might. might happen off the field with Tyreek as well. Well, it was so tough for, you know, from a football standpoint for Kansas City to decide to move on. I think clearly it was, I felt it was the right decision at the time, a tough decision, right decision. And they've struggled some offensively, you know, relatively speaking for them, and it's still been able to win because their quarterback's amazing. Andy Reid's amazing. But in this case, I would, if I'm the Dolphins, I don't want to do

another huge deal with Tyreek Hill. Yeah. So, you know, I would want to ride this thing out. But it will see. The other thing is, you know, with Tyreek. you mentioned, hey, maybe they would have done, or with Tua, maybe they would have done a deal by now. Sometimes things get done right before camp, too. So maybe that isn't that another sort of time to be looking maybe for maybe something could still happen at that point, right? No doubt that the timing mechanism, the deadline mechanism, those are still in play. And Tua can continue to ask for, and I'm not saying he is, but in the real world, I would find agents asking for the sky until, when all their comeback was, no, no, no, and then they get real when it comes down to a deadline.

Once we start pads popping and the client having to put something at risk, then all of a sudden they can get real. So you're right, they may end up indeed making a deal at some point, but it also tells me it hasn't been a slam dunk to get there either. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Trevor Lawrence has not been a slam dunk so far in Jacksonville either. You like that professional segue and transition into your column, Randy, that you wrote this week. I thought it was really interesting because Jacksonville is not really, you know, obviously it's not a huge media market. They're not always going to be, you know, featured on all of the talk shows and that sort of thing. But really have been an interesting situation the last few years with the whole Urban Meyer fiasco.

They draft Trevor Lawrence. It's been kind of cloudy. Last year, I think we were expecting more. And so you dug into him a little bit. But what did you find? Where are you at on Lawrence? I thought it was a really good, interesting column. I'll single out some of the stuff in there.

But let me just give you a wide floor here. You can go any direction you want. Well, to start with what made me do it was the fact that these quarterbacks, as we alluded to with the Tua discussion, are all looking for north of 50 million now. And they don't, the Jaguars do not have to pay Trevor Lawrence yet. But it won't be long, probably after this season, that they're going to have to decide what his value is. So I, like you, have thought, well, what are we missing here? And so I just wanted to dig into it a little bit, watch some tape, figure out where his numbers led us,

and then figure out from a watching tape standpoint where the skill set on the field is and where his development as a quarterback was. Some of the numbers I didn't really love. And so that kind of sometimes can skew your opinion. If you look at those numbers too much, his quarterback rating of 85-3, very average, completion percentage, 65.6%, 14th in the league. Interceptions are really high, 14 tied for fourth most, took a lot of sacks, 21 turnovers is third most in the league, only behind Sam Hal and Josh Allen. So there are numbers here that give you reason to pause. For the most part, what we saw at Clemson, when all of us NFL guys went into Clemson to look at him, are the same things you see now. Physical skills, very evident. really with us freshman year at Clemson, you saw this. The one thing or the two things that I struggled with after looking at the NFL film from last year, internal clocks still getting a little put off at times, decision making, not always there at the pace you want to.

So there were some things with regard to his play. And what made me also think about this is you brought up last week to us on the podcast, Mike, about the fact that it had not been determined if Doug Peterson was going to call plays, boy, if I'm Doug Peterson, I surely want to have my hands on development of this kid because it just hasn't happened quickly enough for my liking. And there's a lot at stake for a lot of people in Jacksonville. So at the end of the day, I just thought Trevor, it probably is what it is, but he's got to improve, he's got to get better. And there were some reasoning for me to say that, I think, after watching the tape. Well, one of the concerns I have with quarterbacks in general,

is if they don't kind of show you early, sometimes they just don't. But in his situation, really, you almost have to throw out the whole deal with Urban Meyer and maybe cut him a break. I wonder if there's some scarring with him, Randy. You talked about the internal clock and some of that and the way that he leaves the pocket early or the way that he wants to have. I think he wrote that he wants to quickly know where he can go with the ball. Is this somebody who's maybe got some quarterback PTSD here, you know, of the first couple years of his career? You hear about that.

Sometimes are we going to ruin the guy? Yeah. Does that happen? Do you think that that's happened? Can you tell if that type of things happen? Well, it definitely happens. And it's happened to history shows around the league. Occasionally you will get this when teams fail to protect.

when teams fail to give quarterback's answers. They do get some of that twitchiness that is hard to go away. I don't know that this can still be part of the blame, but it does explain a lot of the first year. I don't think there were a lot of answers given to this kid during the Urban Meyer saga in Jacksonville. That was a full three-tent circus that happened for a whole year. So that is what it is.

but he's two years removed from that going on year three now. So we'll see how that expands. I think what you're alluding to, and the best way I can describe it is, there's a certain comfort level, there's a certain patience that comes with playing the position. And for me, Trevor just hasn't been able to slow down the game enough to take advantage of the patience, of the let, let's just sit and let the play develop, make our decisions based on not being frantic to do this or do that. But at some point, the defense declares what they are and where you should go with the ball. The best I've ever been around at that was Philip Rivers with the Chargers for years, Mike.

And he was the absolute best. Let's just say play last five or six seconds. At second, four and a half, he was still letting the play develop and was awesome at the end of a down. Trevor, I haven't seen get to that level. And there's a lot that don't. But I'll say this, the great ones don't define themselves until you can count. on them to consistently make great things happen late in downs. We've seen the evolution of Josh Allen at just this one task, how it's progressed throughout his career and still not

100% trusting of him late in downs as to what he might do. So I think that patience that allows you to slow the rest of the game down so that you can make sound decisions from the pocket is still lacking with Trevor. I just feel like something's off there in Jacksonville. With me or with Trevor? No. Not with you. With Trevor. Okay.

With Trevor. I feel like this. What are we doing wondering about the vision and is it the coordinator? Is Press Taylor going to call the plays or is Doug Peterson or what direction are we headed? That's all supposed to solve and come into focus when you hire Doug Peterson for me. I want to be feeling right now like, okay, these guys are in. think, they know what they got, what they're doing. And this is only going to get better.

And I don't have that feeling. And maybe some of it is that it's Trevor Lawrence. And one of the lines in there that may, you know, scare some fans, I think you said that he's a bigger, faster Daniel Jones. Well, if you like Daniel Jones, maybe that's not a problem. But from what people were saying about, no one was saying that when Trevor Lawrence was going in the draft. I don't remember people saying, oh, my.

gosh, this guy is a bigger, faster, Daniel Jones, you're going to love him. So maybe he's part of it. But the whole thing, from Lawrence to Peterson, Press Taylor, now they've been sort of casting about for different receivers, right? They were going to have Calvin Ridley, then he's not part of the deal. Now we're going to have a draft one in the first round. It's just not as tight, not as coherent, not as clear as I wanted to be. if I was the owner of that team, besides spending a lot of time on a 300-foot yacht, I would be saying, why is there any uncertainty here at all?

We got the number one quarterback in the draft that everybody loved. Doug Peterson, we got an offensive coach that people like. Why should there be any question at all? Is that a fair thing to be bringing up? Oh, I think it's fair. I think that's why I think this year is such a big year for Doug Peterson, for the Jaguars, for Trevor Lawrence. It is those questions that even if they're not being asked out loud,

they're being thought of by important people in that structure of that whole building. I can tell you that. So Trevor Lawrence is what he is at this point. I do think he has to get better at his position and he has to develop the skills beyond what just his natural physical skills bring. the table and that hasn't happened for whatever reason. The comparison I made with Daniel Jones is really from a mental standpoint. That's it. Because I think I see the same guy like we brought up with Daniel and it just hasn't progressed. So some of that might be the system. Some of it

might be Trevor. Some of it is maybe the constant change that Jacksonville's had over the last two or three years. Time will tell, but he's going to have to definitely play better because I guess what I saw on film are just what the numbers show in this case, and it's all been very mediocre, especially when you're talking about having the value these top quarterbacks at 50 million plus. Yep. Okay, we're going to hit three other quarterback situations. Actually, four if you count, we're going to talk about Lamar Jackson, not being in Baltimore, but that's in a different category.

He's clearly the star quarterback for the Ravens. These other situations are a little bit evolving, and that's Seattle, that's Denver, that's Pittsburgh. I think there's interesting things about this, whether you're a fan of those teams or not. I think it's interesting. Let's start in Seattle where Gino Smith is the incumbent starter. They acquire Sam Howell. And our text exchanges this week going back and forth, you sent me something showing a video of Sam Howell addressing the media. And part of that was, hey, I love being in this city.

I love being part of this team. You liked what you heard from Howell. Why? And then what's interesting about the situation to you? Well, I just liked where I see the headspace that Sam Howe's in right now. The obvious long season he had with the commanders last year, he's a veteran, but yet he's a young guy that has experienced, obviously been humbled, obviously understands the intangibles of being the face of a franchise because he was that last year. And so I just felt like his head screwed on right.

His demeanor was really good for me. And I think the Seahawks have done a great job in positioning this. deal to make sure that it's not a competition per se, so there's no pressure on anybody. But I'll say this, it is a new system in Seattle now with the new coaching staff. It's a new system with Ryan Grubbs' offense that both of these quarterbacks, Gino Smith and Sam Howe are now learning at the same pace. They started the same time. They should be on the same page in the playbook as far as teaching and digesting it goes.

So my point is this might be a competition without anybody ever saying. saying it's more of a competition. I happen to think Sam Howell is an NFL passer. I saw enough of him last preseason and early in last season before the wheels came off in DC that led me to believe if they had a decent system around him and an offensive line that could protect him and a scheme that worked, that this kid might have a chance to be an NFL starter. So I just think it's an interesting scenario to follow. I don't think anybody's ever going to say, hey, this job's up for grabs, but Sam Hal might surprise some people this summer and into the fall and make this a little bit of a battle that nobody talks about.

No doubt. And Gino is much more efficient than how numbers wise last season. But I think we also know what Gino is. And it's good, but there's not this, hmm, I wonder what he could become. You know, I think sometimes people want to see a guy like Sam Hal. Okay, hey, is there more here? He hasn't played enough for us to see if there's more. The things that are interesting about this situation to me, a few of them from a GM standpoint.

One, Randy, is he lit up Seattle last year. He had a really big producing game, 300 yards some game. I always wonder, like then the Seahawks sign them, do you guard against that as an evaluator, Randy? Or can you just not escape the fact that this guy killed us? So now we want him. Having been that guy in the chair as a GM, I think it's hard to erase what you see with your own eyes. I really do. And I'm not saying that was the driving force behind this deal.

but I think you're on to a good point. I'll give you another example of that when I was with the Chargers. I remember going to a game live at Hines Field in Pittsburgh where University of Pittsburgh was playing Oklahoma State. And to my left, the whole day, and we had lunch together, and we've been buddies for years, was Kevin Colbert, the Steelers' GM. And that day, Mason Rudolph put on a show that I thought I was watching Warren Moon dropping bombs down smokestacks.

I mean, he had 300 yards at halftime. This kid was incredible. He was all over the place. And just in our discussions during the day, Kevin Colbert, GM of the Steelers, at the end of the day, I remember getting on the airplane that night thinking, I wonder if the Steelers will be on this guy now because at the time they were looking. And sure enough, they drafted him in the second round. So yes, I think your point is valid.

You do see things with your own eyes. I don't know that you have to guard against it. Maybe you do because the one thing you do when you go to see games live as a scout or even as a fan, you can see the whole picture. You can see the environment. You can see what's happening on the sidelines. You can see how this kid reacts to pros and cons within what's going on in the game. So you get a really good picture live.

And so sometimes that carries more weight than if you just go watch a film where it's 65 plays on video in your office where nothing else, none of that intangible stuff is even a factor. So you're probably on to something to a point. I think it affects some maybe more than others. Maybe that happened with Sam Powell. I don't know. Yeah. I think the other thing is, you know,

it was such an extreme situation in Washington where they were throwing all the time. I mean, he ended up having 21 touchdowns, 21 interceptions and almost a 10% sacrate. I mean, this is something out of the 1970s or something. You just don't see that. Usually now the offenses are so efficient. Even when they suck, they don't have a ton of interceptions, right?

We could all see last year shoot. You could make Russell Wilson had good looking numbers, even though you knew he wasn't really, you know, playing amazingly. So that part is interesting. You have to sort of synthesize that as a GM. Okay, that situation was weird. They threw the ball too much in Washington. But the other thing that's interesting to me is that Gino Smith being a success story in Seattle,

he's not really a success story to Mike McDonald, though. Everything's starting fresher. He doesn't really have. He might have some equity with John Schneider, the GM, with people in the building and the training room, all of that. But the new coach, the new coach was a defense. of coordinator for Baltimore last year. Baltimore just smoked Seattle.

Gino Smith did have, you talk about seeing something in person. I'm sure Mike McDonald watched all the Gino film for the whole season and has appreciation for what he's done as a pro. But the one time he saw him in person, they absolutely dominated Seattle's offense and Seattle in that game. So, you know, Gino is not going in to this thing with a bunch of equity built up with Mike McDonald's, you know, that's interesting to me. Well, and I would say that's probably 95% of the NFL.

Gino had the one good year in Seattle, got his 30 million a year deal after that, but there's been inconsistencies through his play that all of us have seen with our own eyes. So I like the fact that the Seahawks have made the hierarchy clear. Sometimes surprises come when you least expect them, and this just might be one of those spots. Nobody wants any quarterback drama, so I don't expect them to ever address it. But let's just think about watching the development as this goes. And you're right. There's really no nothing built up in Mike McDonald's mind that says that this can't be a competition without ever having to say it's a competition publicly.

And as you've said, both of them are learning the offense. There's no advantage for Gino. No, not at all. That's a difference too. All right. Let's hit Denver. First round rookie Bo Nix. They got Jets cast off Zach Wilson.

They got the journeyman Jared Stidham. We know it's going to be Bo Nix, event. We're not exactly sure how soon. Sean Peyton is always good for a quote, Randy. He's always got something to say. Or two or three. Yeah. Yeah, you read it and you go, oh, my gosh.

Then you go back and watch the full context of it, and it's usually not as pointed in sure. I did that. But I thought this was funny. He said above his quarterback group, it's kind of the orphan group. They're all orphan dogs. They've come from somewhere, but they're doing good.

And it's a good room. Orphan dogs, you took this guy in the first round. This isn't a rescue. Look, we've had, look, I love rescue dogs. We've owned. You don't really, the dogs own you, okay? But we've had four dogs. They were all rescues.

We do a lot of stuff with rescue dogs. And there's nothing, I would rather have a rescue dog and spoil them to pieces than have, than be getting my guy at the kennel club and making sure that he never, you know, slobbers on the carpet, right? But that was an interesting way to describe your first round. pedigree guy, orphan dogs. If I'm Bo Nix, I'm saying, coach, I thought I was the future here. I thought it was fun. No doubt. Sean has a way with words and he can get right under the quick of your thumbnails and fingernails quickly, that's for sure. My guess is referring to the fact that Bo Nix failed

at Auburn and it had to go to Oregon to get his second life. And so he got rescued by the ducks. And so he was a rescue dog at some point. But what got my attention about Denver was, and I want to say it was Tom Pelliserra, but it might have been somebody else at high national level who was at their OTAs last week in Denver. And he just said, hey, watching these three quarterbacks side by side, he said what jumped out at me was Zach Wilson and the way he spins the ball. Because this is just somebody else's. So it's a third account of mine. Zach Wilson, he said, looked like Bert Jones compared to these other two guys the way he threw the ball. And that does not surprise me because I've seen Zach Wilson and his skill set.

And hey, who knows what happens with him and Sean Payton once they get together. You talk about a guy that's built up some resiliency to negativity and can take coaching. I would think it would be Zach Wilson at this point. He has held New York City on his shoulders for two or three years now, and it didn't work out. So I just think that's going to be a fun competition, if it's even a competition, but a set of events to kind of follow. I have a lot of faith in Sean Payton. I think he's a world-class offensive coach and a manipulator of minds.

And I just think it's going to be fascinating. If I had three or four free days in the summer, that'd be one place I'd want to go. But I don't want to just watch one practice. I want to watch three or four days just to see how that goes. Because I want to see the ups and downs, how these quarterbacks react when they do get yelled at, when they do get their feelings hurt. And I want to see who bounces back because all of those things will factor in to who Sean decided. gives us the best chance to win week one. And I think that was probably some of the, some of the things that hurt Russell Wilson there, because Sean's going to coach them all the

same. He's going to get after him, whether they're a five-year pro bowl or a 20-year vet, it's not going to matter. And so I can't wait to see how these guys respond to Sean Payton's coaching. Yeah, you mentioned you want to not just go for one day, three or four. That's one of the things Peyton said was, hey, you media guys have been coming here every third day. And it just happened to be the days that Bo Nix was working with the ones. They've been rotating it. So you're not getting a full picture. He said it's like watching pieces of a documentary.

You're not seeing it. But I'll say this. Randy, is there any way, like, if you're not going to start Bo Nix week one, to me, you need to say that as part of your plan going into the out season. I wouldn't want to make that be a decision so that Bo Nix lost the competition in week one and we declare him a guy who could. win the starting job over Zach Wilson. I would want to have a little bit more direction. Really, hey, we picked up this veteran player, like Jacoby Brissette, right? It would be a good example

in New England where if Jacoby opens the year, it feels like part of their plan. It's not a reflection at all in Drake May that you couldn't beat them out. This almost feels like, can you imagine if they, what if they start Zach Wilson week one? Are you making a statement you don't want to make? What do you think of that? I think it'd be the best thing that could happen to them and Bo Nix's development. That's just my opinion. I think whether it's Stidham or Zach Wilson, they're better off sitting Bo Nix for six, eight, ten weeks if they can't. I just think it's going to be really hard for a rookie to come in.

And most of the time they have to play for the reasons you said or because they have nobody else. I think it should be lauded that they have a couple of other guys that might be able to line up and give them some time. It's like the opener in a baseball game now, right? When you don't have that fifth starter, you're going to play a pitch an opener for an inning or two and then come with the rest of your staff.

that's what I would like to see them do in an ideal world is start an opener, a guy that's been there, done that, see how long he can go before you have to then go to Bo Nix. Because every day, the learning is going to be immense for a new quarterback. I don't care if you're the first guy I picked in Caleb Williams or Bo Nix getting picked where he did. I think the learning curve is steep. And if you can buy yourself as much time as you can, regardless of who the starter is, and it's not costing you games, your franchise is better off for it in the long long time.

run. Yeah, yep. So we'll see how they handle that. Sean Payton's always good for some kind of a quip or a quote, so I'm sure he'll have something funny to say when it happens. Pittsburgh is the other one we wanted to hit here. Russell Wilson saying, hey, I'd be just fine with the Steelers creating packages featuring Justin Fields. It's all about the team and us winning, and it would strike fear in defense. I don't think he really has a vote on this, Randy. They're going to get Justin Fields on the field, but nice he's saying it. Nice he's saying it. I'm kind of, I'm just intrigued by Pittsburgh overall. So what do you think. 100% agree. I think this is a good team. I think it's nice that Russell says that. I think he has to, to be honest with you. I just think this is going to be one of those summers and early falls

in Pittsburgh that you're not going to be able to tell a lot when you watch Justin Fields in practice. Because the athleticism and the special traits that he holds, I think are most evident when the real bullets are flying and when guys are trying to take your head off. And then there's 11 guys on the other side trying to make the team every second of every day. I just don't think you're going to see that in practice. I think you're going to see that at game speed. And so when he plays in preseason, that's the first time I think people are going to say, whoa, we got to find a way to get Justin on the field more. And then the more they do it, I think the more plays he makes. And this may be fun to watch. Obviously, Russell Wilson comes out of the game if Justin feels is in it. But I think

Justin feels under the gun will shine. And that one may take a little longer to sort out just because in preseason, you don't necessarily get to see that. I just think, does that make sense, Mike? When everybody is firing all cylinders is when Justin feels athletic ability, which is his strength is going to shine. Yes, I think he can shine in the doses or so, but I don't, I mean, he hasn't shined with Chicago consistently enough to be the starting quarterback. This could be just an interesting situation where the allure of it creates a, hey, can we play them more? Hey, what about playing them for a series, right? There could be a little bit of a pull that way.

I think you're probably right. I also think that the underlying or 30,000 foot level view of it, depending on which angle you take, is that Arthur Smith's offense is a perfect fit for Justin Fields. I think it is outstanding what he's going to ask of his quarterback to do that Justin actually are his strengths. And that's kind of why we said three or four years ago that Atlanta was the perfect place for Justin Fields. It didn't happen. It didn't work out. But now it has a chance to happen. And I just think that fit itself doesn't get enough play. And I understand Russell Wilson is going to take up all the oxygen in the room. I get it.

But this is one that I will have my eyes on because I think it is a perfect fit for his skill set. If Justin Fields doesn't make it with Arthur Smith's offense, his career is probably in doubt. Very interesting. If we had to say, okay, who's the odds-on favorite to be the Steelers starting quarterback, week one, Russell Wilson? Yes. 12 and then week one of 2025, you might start shifting towards fields, right? That's what we're saying. I agree. It's a good way to put it. Yep. Yep. All right. Lamar Jackson, the skipping OTAs, one of the unwritten rules or at least understandings in the NFL, I think, traditional. Randy, and maybe this is more from a front office perspective.

We are the football GM podcast. Holds that kind of when you pay your guys that you buy some, not just piece, but you buy, especially with a quarterback, full buy-in and everything that represents. And I'm not going to read too much into somebody not going to OTAs. Tom Brady late in his career with the Patriots didn't attend all of them. But that was also sort of emblematic of something. there was something amiss there. I'm not saying there's anything amiss with Lamar Jackson and the Ravens. That being said, if I were John Harbaugh and I had 10 of the 11 starters there every day, I believe, so far for OTAs,

wouldn't you want your MVP quarterback to be one of them? I would. And then just caught my attention. Around the league, we see Michael Parsons is not there for the Cowboys. I don't think anyone's questioning how great he's going to be. I'm not questioning how good Lamar Jackson's going to be this year. Just cut my attention a little bit. How about you? I think it's a good point. I think in Tom Brady's sense back in the day, I don't know that we can compare too much with Lamar. Do you think Tom Brady needed that? He didn't need the work, right? He kind of knew what they were doing. I think it does serve a message and that's what I would get to as being somewhat of an issue for me with Lamar. I think part of what you pay these guys for, especially your leadership guys, are the intangibles,

are what they bring along with them, and for them to do what's best for the team. I think they help you build a culture in that way. I think the right message can be sent if your best players toe the line and follow it, even if it's stuff that they don't want to do. The one thing that really matters to me that Lamar doesn't think that it's important.

That part I would like to know more about. I don't know that we know all the specifics as to why. He could have a good reason he's not there. Yeah. He could have something super important, family-wise. I'm not, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to blow it into something. It just caught my attention that, hmm, you know, I want him leading the way. Yeah, it made me think of this, Mike. Back in the day, we used to pay our guys in the off-season

in Seattle lots of money to be there and our best players especially. Yeah, for example. Yeah, a guy like Cortez Kennedy, for me, we put a million dollars in an off-season bonus. And what I did is, whenever we got, when we got to the end of negotiating deal. I looked at it like this. Let's advance you a million dollars or more off of your base salary so that you can get it sooner. All you got to do is show up for the OTAs and offseason program, and you'll get a million dollars of that base salary sooner. So it's almost like a salary advance. So it wasn't additional money that we threw out there. And in a lot of times, the agents for it, because they want to see the guy get his money sooner. And we benefit as a team because we know he'll

be there to collect that million dollars. So part of that money we pay, Yeah, we're buying loyalty. We're buying work ethic, but we're also buying a culture that we want our best players to be around there. In turn, all the other players will be there as well. So there's a little method behind why some teams did that back in the day. Maybe teams, as we get into this new topic of OTAs disappearing with the NFLPA's proposal, maybe we'll have to go back to buying our loyalty for having guys around because we sure can't require them to be there. that's for sure. And if we are going to get to that subject next, I'm smiling and laughing here because I can just picture Cortez, you know, being a Florida guy, you know, a southern guy, but he was at University of Miami.

And he was, was he living in Orlando then, too, when he was playing? Was he living in Orlando? Yeah. Lives in Orlando, rest his soul, Cortez. But I could just picture him saying, I'm coming out there, Randy, coming all the way out to the northwest. Well, he comes for a million bucks. Back in those days, that was a lot of money.

He comes for a million bucks, no doubt. No doubt Cortez is coming out there for a million bucks. Love it. That's it. He was just such a fun guy that it made me laugh as you're thinking you had to dangle a million dollar carrot to get him back to Seattle in the offseason. Whatever it takes. He was the best. Okay.

You mentioned the calendar could change. Randy, you're going to take a deeper dive into this apart from the podcast, but it certainly caught my attention when the Players Association suggested eliminating some of these voluntary workouts and OTAs from the spring and then maybe having players come in instead of, you know, they've been there now in in May and now into early June, maybe not have them there and then bring them in the middle of June for kind of a ramp up period before training camp. I got to be honest, Randy, as somebody, I view the schedule like a lot of people do in the league, like kind of selfishly, like, okay, where are we going to be on this certain week? or when at what point in the calendar are you going to be off, you know, take your vacations?

And for the NFL, that's been the same for me 25 years or 26 years of being around the NFL. I've had the same, you know, hey, you know the end of June and the first part of July is your time to be off. And that's just the way it is. So when they start talking this stuff, I bet you a lot of people in the league, we saw Mike McCarthy react negatively. But I bet you a lot of people in the league are going, that aren't players are going, hey, wait a minute here. What do you think? Yeah, it will definitely get the attention of a lot of front office people because of the dynamics of a lot of what you do will change. Their spouses and families.

Yeah, no doubt. And that's kind of who runs the show for the most part. Having been around as long as I have and you, to a certain extent, Mike, in the 80s and 90s, we didn't have OTAs. So we didn't have all of this offseason stuff. So we seem to get by quickly or just fine. I guess the difference for me is the underlying fact that back in those days, our rosters did not change. We didn't have 30, 40 percent turnover within our rosters. So we weren't teaching a third to a half of a new team our systems every year.

This time around with unrestricted free agency, with the amount of change that happens with rosters, that offseason is really viable. We need the offseason to teach these guys. And I would be a little nervous and I haven't seen the numbers yet. And let us just say this. This is a proposal that would have to be agreed on and detailed out of which we don't know all that yet. But is it going to kill the game? No.

It's not going to kill the game. But I do think it would hurt a certain faction of players. It would hurt the young guys. The rookies would really struggle. They don't get a chance to learn soon enough. They don't get a chance to be on film as early as they'd like to. If you're an undrafted college kid and you can show your work ethic from day one, I would rather be judged over two and a half months than two weeks before the veterans showed up in training camp.

So there's a lot of things we don't really know about it yet. I don't know that the calendar for vacations of certain people in buildings is going to determine or have anything to do with it. I think from a player safety standpoint and from a good of the game standpoint, I hope those are the things that dictate how much change we... That ain't dictated in anything, Randy. It's the money is dictating everything in the league and all that type of stuff. That's not good. So think of this. So here's what I think of is the players have now declared what's important to them again.

It's always the off-season. The owners are all about the money. They want the 18th game. They want whatever it takes to get more money. Roger Cadell would rather get to do anything to get to the $25 billion mark. That's his goal. That's what he thinks his legacy is with the owners. And they would do away with practice entirely if it meant it would do that, in my opinion.

So I just see this going. If that's important to the players, that's something that the league is happy to give. And to some extent, the offseason calendar, you think they care about the ramp up? They can say, Roger Goodell is not sitting there with the owners going, God, I hope our coaches have enough time to get this third down defense in. I don't think they even know how important that is. And they're proving over and over. The revenue keeps going up as they pinch the things that are important to the quality of the game,

practice time and some of that, the quality reps that you get. That stuff's going out the window if you look over time. So I think this is interesting that it came out. and I won't surprise me at all if it goes that direction. Well, so you're saying really it's the players push back against the 18th game being added. That's really what this is, is a bigger picture negotiating ploy. The players want more money too, obviously, and they know that adding games is a great way to get more money. It's a way that you can lock in more money.

And so what do you need to get in return to that? Because the league is already for a long time kind of, they've already normalized the idea of an 18th game. When they added to 17, it was to get to 18. They just weren't going to do it all at once. So I think that the idea of an 18th game has been trial ballooned and enough. It's out there. It's sort of like a feeling of an evidentibility. It's a done deal.

It's a done deal. Yeah. It's a feeling of inevitability. So the players, I'm just saying what the players get in return for adding games or doing whatever it takes to add more money is so far has been lifestyle related. they've gotten you know, they've gotten a streamlining

of the off-season work already. So there's just, that's just the thing that can be squeezed more, in my opinion. I agree. And that's what happened in one of the prior CBA negotiations. Remember that the players took such a bath in the negotiations that the league did come back at the end

and give them all the off-season requests that they wanted. So I don't disagree with you at all. I do think there's probably a correlation, between both of these stories being leaked out and, like you said, trial ballooned. I just hate to see it from the standpoint of the best thing this game could have is more continuity to produce a higher level product. But that does, and I agree with you, get pushed to the side when it comes to building revenue. And what did you say, $25 billion?

Was that a real number? Yeah, that's a real number. And I just see it heading that direction. And really, until there's any evidence at all, which there's, there's zero so far until there's any evidence at all that an erosion of quality that so far may only be detectable by you or long time evaluators or coaches i'm not joking like the people that are really in the game and really see the details of the game of technique right the average fan or me watching the game is not attuned to the evolution of technique or that

i'm not a coach i'm not a teacher i can't teach the technique but the people who really know that stuff, see it already. They see a diminishing of the technique. But until that correlates with fewer people watching the game, then there's, then the league is not going to be attuned to it. Right now, the league is like, hey, let's try this. Let's put a game where you have to have peacock. And then they say, then they announce it.

Then a bunch of people in the media go, oh, this is just another example of the league has no, you know, regard for the fan. people sign up for peacock. It's like they can do whatever they want and still win. Well, if you can do whatever you want and still win, then you do whatever you want. And I just don't see any evidence that the fan is sitting there going, you know, there's been a loss of technique or fundamentals in the game here. We need to rep it more.

No, they're signing up for peacock. I can't dispute your point. I don't want to hear it. but I can't dispute your point. And it's why there's so much money driving everything and makes the game different than it was 30 years ago because I do think, and we've said it before, that when Gene Upshaw was in charge of the Players Association,

when Paul Taggabu was the commissioner, I do think they had to go to the game at the basis behind 95% of their decisions. That clearly is not the case now. It is driven by money. And, hey, welcome to 2000s. Welcome to 2024. It's going to get tweaked again to base more revenue where others' paychecks are all being

determined off of that base revenue. No doubt. You got anything else? We didn't get to a GM notebook, but we hit on some notes. Do you have anything there? This was a GM notebook show, Mike. So I appreciate your patience and going through all this with me. I hope we didn't bore our listeners, but we got into the weeds in a few topics that I really enjoy.

You know, when I see the GM notebook with it being blank in our little shared file here, I assume you're just concealing it from me so I don't steal it. So I wanted to give you a chance if you had a couple of things. Well, it's nice of you to ask then. Nice of you to check in. Yeah, you're right, though. This time we hit on some GM notebooky type stuff already. So I think we're good.

You got any plans for the weekend? I do not. I'm looking forward to, well, I got to write a story for our bosses at the athletic. So I'm looking forward to diving into this off-season topic and putting something out next week. That'll be fun. Great. Look forward to that. I'm going to hit the road a little bit next week and visit some camps.

That's always a good opportunity over the next couple weeks. I'll be doing that. Looking forward to that. But we'll be back next Friday with another show. And until then, have a great weekend, everybody. This was the Athletic Football Show's Football GM podcast.