The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Free Agency Day 1: Patriots make moves, big OL deals & more with Lindsay Jones + the players' side of free agency with Geoff Schwartz

Episode Date: March 16, 2021

It was a busier than expected day 1 of the NFL tampering period. Lindsay Jones joins Robert Mays to react to some of the biggest deals including Joe Thuney to the Chiefs, the Bucs keeping Shaq Barrett, the Patriots making numerous moves and tons more. Then former NFL offensive lineman and current host of 'Geoff Schwartz is Smarter Than You', Geoff Schwartz chats with Robert about his experience from the player's side during free agency. Get all-access to The Athletic at theathletic.com/footballshow Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show for you guys. A little bit later in the show, Jeff Schwartz from Jeff Schwartz is smarter than you. He is on Sirius. He shows up a lot of different places. Former NFL offensive linemen, he's going to talk about what free agency is like for a player who's in demand.

He told some really fun stories. I'm excited for you guys to hear that. Before we do that, though, joining me today. It's my good friend, Lindsay Jones. Lindsay, how are you? I'm good. Happy almost new year, Robert. What if we did our real New Year's this way? We had two days leading into New Year's.

I really enjoy the fact that I screw up the free agent calendar every single year. We were going to do something on Wednesday because that's when free agency opens. I've only covered the NFL for like seven years. So by now I should know that all of these deals were going to roll in on Monday. So we decided this morning, let's just go with it because it's been a really fun day of NFL news. I wanted to kind of add some urgency to the way we recapped it. So we're going to talk about some of the initial reports from the free agent signings that we've seen. As you guys know, this is live.

It's 4.20 p.m. Central time right now. So there might be some more. I mean, and reacting to them in real time is always really fun. So let's start with what you floated as now I understand is a joke way to start the podcast as a dig at me. But as soon as the Joe Tunis signing happened, you said, This is how we're leading the show. I just assumed you were serious. Well, I am serious.

Okay. So let's start with that. I am serious, but I also know that there's nothing in the world that you love more than some super sexy hot interior offensive line play. Well, you'd be surprised at my reaction to this then. So the chiefs go out. They sign Joe Tooney of the Patriots, formerly of the Patriots, to a reported five-year $80 million deal with $32 million fully guaranteed and $48 million in. practical guarantees because of an injury guarantee that kicks in next year. So this is shocking only in that a week ago, it just didn't feel like the chiefs were going

financially be in the running for guys like this. But after cutting both of their starting tackles, they had some money to burn and they had to remake their offensive line. And they made a very, very splashy move. $16 million for Joe Tuny resets the guard market and gets another high priced guy from outside Kansas City onto that roster to go along with that. guys like Tyrone Matthew, Frank Clark, they have not been shy about taking big swings. This one is at a slightly less exciting position.

Let's just say that much. It is, but it's so necessary, right? I mean, I think when you looked at, you know, or when I was looking at the chiefs heading into today and this week, they had to do something on the offensive line. I was kind of keeping my eye on Trent Williams, if that was a guy that they might try to make the really splashy play because clearly there's a need for a left tackle there. But, you know, instead they went with Zeitler. you know, at this point I'm not going to rule Veach and Company Veech and Andy Reid out of any sort of, you know, free agent market, any sort of position that they might want to go after. But you would think that this would take them out of the running for Trent Williams, who, you know, has not yet re-signed with San Francisco. I know the Niners were kind of hoping to get something done with him. But, you know, look, at this point, there was only one returning starter from the Chief Super Bowl win on that offensive line. And that was Lorraine de Varney Tardee, whose name,

I always mispronounce, who didn't even play last year? This has been massive turnover on that entire offensive line. And we saw in the Super Bowl how badly they really need good offensive linemen. So they had to be aggressive. They had to spend a lot of money. I don't know if it's the best value deal that was out there. But when you look at a team that has needs and going out and getting the best player available at that position, that's what the chiefs did here.

So I think the number of holes along the offensive line is why this is a little bit curious. because I think signing an interior offensive line and free agency is typically a safe way to spend your money. We'll get to a couple of the other ones here in a second because I feel a little bit differently about those than I do about spending $16 million a year on Joe Tuny. They're going to have a very solid starter. He has been one of the most reliable offensive linemen in the NFL since he arrived into the league. He's never hurt. He plays every single snap. And one of the things I love with free agent offensive line additions, positional versatility.

He can play center in a pinch. He's done that well. He can play tackle if you need him to. That's great. But a guard, no matter how good he is, only moves the needle so much. Is it smarter to say, all right, instead of $16 million for one guard, here's $8 million for one guard, $8 million for another guard, what can we do at tackle? It's possible they looked at the market and what they might be able to do in the draft and said, this is the best way to upgrade the positional unit. That's totally reasonable.

But I still think we haven't seen huge guard deals move the needle that much. I like spending free agent money on the offensive line, not in more cautious ways, but just in more measured ways that spread it out a little bit more to fill holes rather than try to look for difference makers. And the amount of money they gave Joe Tuny on this deal, they expect him to be a difference maker at $16 million a year. And it's always about weighing value and what does this team want? What do they need?

right now when you talk about what do the chiefs need, obviously they need tackles. And I think that's important. But it's what it's those things that you just mentioned. It's consistency. It's the, it's a guy who's going to be reliable. It's a guy that has positioned versatility because that's what they didn't have last year. And it really came, it really came back to to bite them when they were trying to move guys around in the playoffs and heading into the Super Bowl and just didn't have kind of the the right people there. I'm very curious where they're going to go from here. I mean, there was a report a couple days ago that they were looking forward. to bringing Mike Remmer's back, which, I mean, if you want to bring Mike Remmer's back to be depth at one of your tackle positions, that's great. I'm not sure if I'm Patrick Mahomes and company, I'm feeling great about, you know, Mike Remmer's as being one of your long-term answers at one of your tackle positions. This is a really good tackle draft. You know, they do, you know, they're not picking until 31. That's kind of a ways to go to maybe get one of the best tackles in this draft. But it is a position that they might be in a better position to address in the draft this year than you are in a typical year where tackle might not be.

might not be quite as good. So, you know, I just thought it was an interesting move that the chiefs kind of went in. They also did a bunch of restructures. Travis Kelsey, Patrick Mahomes, Chris Jones, all got restructures on their deals earlier to start the week so that they have a little bit of flexibility. So I'm curious to see where they go from here and kind of, yeah, what goes next? What are you going to do those tackle decisions? I mean, it's possible that they looked at the available tackles in the market outside of Trent Williams and just said, we don't want to overspend on one of those guys because at tackle, that's typically what happens in free agency, right? We have teams that spend because there's such a scarcity at that position and they typically get disappointed.

Those guys don't live up to the deals that they receive. A guard that doesn't typically happen. They're fine and they play up to that level. But again, how much is a guard moving the needle and where could those resources have gone? So I'll be really curious how they fill those other spots. We looked at what the Bucks did last year and picking a tackle in the first round, having him start from day one and being an all pro, that is not an advisable strategy when you're trying to figure out how to plug holes on your team in a given year. So if they're sitting there and thinking at 31, we're going to find our starting left tackle. That's a very dangerous game to play. It's great if it works out, but I think the buck's got a little bit lucky there. But Bruce

Arian should remember just what value he got out of his rookies last year when he's talking about how, you know, lack of an off season will hurt rookies because they won the Super Bowl, in part because their rookies were so good. But yeah, so we'll see what happened. So the other offensive line big moves of the day were Corey Lindley going to the Chargers. He'll be their new starting center. I know you have studied a lot of Green Bay offensive line tape over the years. So what did you think of that one?

That deal got done very shortly before we started recording. Yeah, I don't even have the details in front of me because it happened so quickly. But he's going to be the highest paid center in the NFL by everything that's been reported. the AEV is not even in SpotTrek right now. So let me look at some of the deals. So five years, 62 and a half million, which I think this is an interesting conceptual question.

How much do you value center? And if you value center a lot and you think that it provides stability and can be kind of a force multiplier along your offensive line, it can make the guys around him better, it can ease the burden on your quarterback, then signing a center and free agency, I think is a really smart move. It's worked out for a lot of different teams over the years.

You look at some of the recent Free Agent Center signings. Mitch Morse has been really good for Buffalo. I think he's been really good for Josh Allen. Ryan Jensen, again, going back to the Bucks, has been great in Tampa. He's been everything they wanted him to be after coming over from Baltimore. Alex Mack was really good in Atlanta. That was one of the key pieces in turning that offense into the best offense in the NFL when he got there with Kyle Shanahan. So are the Chargers looking at Corey Lindsay and thinking,

Yeah, it's a lot of money, but it's a safe bet. If we have him for the next three years playing it, even if it's not an all pro level like he did last year, but a step below that, if he's one of the best five or six centers in the league, is that worth it because of how much he's going to help Justin Herbert, how much stability he's going to bring to the offense, everything else. I tend to think spending on centers is worth it. And that's why I think it's a great move. I think it makes all the sense in the world. And it's actually a pairing that I kind of had circled as free agency was. even getting started. Yeah, Shil Kapadia predicted that one.

You know, he did his kind of dream scenarios for all of these free agents and he wanted Lindsay to end up with the Chargers. What do you like about Lindsay as a player and what makes him special as a center, do you think? So smart. So, so smart. I remember a story, when I wrote about him back in 2014, I had a story on the entire Packers offensive line.

And he started early in his career. He got thrust into the starting lineup because I believe was J.C. Tretter got hurt. and he had to play and start in Seattle against that Seahawks team the year after they won the Super Bowl. And he told me a really funny story about that. But remember Josh Sitten telling me that Corey just caught on to something. It's called a cross key. It's just something that younger players wouldn't necessarily notice as things were moving full speed.

And he caught it right early on when he was playing. And Josh Sitton is one of the smartest offensive linemen you'll ever meet. Everyone always says this. And he just saw Corey recognize that and was like, that's a really strong. smart guy. And he's shown that. I think that it took him a little while to get totally comfortable in their new system when Matt Lefleur came over.

But when he settled in, you saw what he can do in year two of that system. Again, I just think an amazing stabilizing factor for a group and an offense that desperately needs it. They've been searching for answers along the offensive line and even at that position for years. They've had so many guys cycle in and out. of those interior reliant positions in San Diego and L.A. And I just think this is a great way to find a solution that gives you some reliability to spot where they haven't had it at all.

Especially now when everything is about making things easier for Justin Herbert. And you want to get tackles, obviously. But if you got to get somebody else in the offensive line, it's going to be that center. So I just love that philosophically what the charges are doing there and where they're going to spend their money. And yes, he's going to be at the top of the market now. But, you know, everything, it's, it's now all in with your rookie quarterback. He's on a rookie cornerback deal.

So I really like that move. And then the other side of the value for the, for the interior offensive line would be Kevin Zyler, who was cut by the Giants, signed by the Ravens this morning. I believe it's $7.5 million. So that's not a massive deal. I mean, that's certainly not going to get the top of the market. It's a great deal. It's such a Ravens contract. getting a guy who was cut for half of what Joe Tuny is going to make every single year,

and he doesn't contribute to the comp pick formula. So they let Matt Judon Walk. They're going to get a third back, and they signed Kevin Zitler for half of what guys are going for on the market. He's a little bit older than Tunis, obviously. He doesn't have as kind of, you know, blemish-free of a track record. But I still think that he is an immediate starter. He is an upgrade for them.

And I think he's going to be really good. And as soon as I saw that, I was just like, yep, that makes total sense. I completely understand why they'd want to go that direction. And the poor Bengals fans, right? I mean, so for for days, weeks now, right, we've all been hyping up the Joe Tooney going back to Cincinnati where he's from. Then, you know, Kevin Zitler, there was a lot of maybe he could go back to the Bengals and then this morning. Now they're both off the board by the end of Monday, including Zaitler, who was very popular in Cincinnati before he left for kind of a big money deal and free agency a couple of years. ago.

I forgot he even played on the Bengals. Right. So, but there was, it became this hope of like, he, he could come back. So it was like, oh, we're going to re-fortify

this offensive line. We're finally going to protect Joe Burrow and all this stuff. And now both of those guys are gone. And Zaitler now is going to be in Baltimore and have to face the Bengals twice year. I think that's okay, though. I don't want Bengals fans to freak out. I want,

I want Bengals fans to take a step back, take a deep breath. The people who win free agency for interior offensive linemen on day one, it's not necessarily a sign of what's to come. You absolutely can find solutions at that position that are a little bit cheaper. You can spread out your money. Again, I mean, Mitch Morse was a big signing for the bills, but if you look at some of the other things the bills have done, and I think they're a really good example of how you can make free agency work for you. If you look at other things the bills have done, especially on the offensive line in recent years,

it's more modest deals. You're just plugging holes. I actually like that as an approach in free agency along the offensive line. If they end up getting a Matt Filer for, I don't know, three or four million dollars less, maybe not three or four million dollars less than Zitler, but like a little bit cheaper than Zitler, if it's $6 million a year, that's okay. It may not be as big a name,

but I just think that if you're finding solutions along the offensive line, you're doing okay, and you can find those solutions a week into free agency, 10 days into free agency. It doesn't have to be in the first three to four hours. So any Bengals fans, are creeping toward the bridge.

Like, it's all right. It's going to be fine. Like, just calm down. Take a breath. There's still going to be players available that can help you. Well, I think that's the message for basically every fan base outside of New England. Yeah.

We're sitting here at 530 Eastern on Monday. And most teams are not active. Like the official market hasn't actually opened yet. And if you check Twitter around the NFL, its fan bases are going, what are they doing? What are you waiting for? Why are there been no deals yet?

Except for New England. who I believe that Bill Belichick has been body snatched. I do not know what has happened to Bill Belichick over the last 24 hours because he's just been handing out deals left and right. I mean, they've basically signed guys for as much money this week than they have in like the last five years period. So what do you think? I'm looking at it right now.

So 53.2 million and guaranteed money over the past three off seasons according to PFF, they've spent 52.8 today. and some of it is understand so I go back and forth I see this picture on the side where's the dog pick Kent if you're going to throw that up there I want the dog so I there it is

that a boy that's what I like to see so I understand some of it and I don't understand some of it I feel like the overall aggressiveness is a sign that they're not desperate but they need solutions you know they in a way last year got to see how the other half lived

They became a normal NFL team, and I think that's kind of created a little bit more desperation and urgency over there than you'd have in a typical off season. They have money to spend, and they're going out and getting guys. The Johnny Smith contract is massive, but he instantly becomes their most explosive pass catcher. They needed something on that team. We've seen what they can do with tight ends in the past. It's been a spot they've valued. Four years, 50 million with $31 million guaranteed is a lot for Johnny. Smith, but if you increase his role, he's going to run some more rows, he's going to be a bigger

piece of the offense, I can understand that. The one that's kind of curious to me is Matt Judon. And it's for this reason. I think scheme fit wise, he makes perfect sense. If you look at the ways they use their edges, they want those guys to be versatile. They want them to be able to do a bunch of different stuff, whether it's blitzing, stunts, being able to cover in certain situations, being physical with tight ends. I think he perfectly fits their deep. I think he perfectly fits their defense. But because they've pieced together their pass rush for so many years, they don't pay edge rushers that because they're non-traditional in the way that they deploy them, they haven't paid

those guys at the top of the market. And that's why going out and spending this much on one is a little bit surprising to me, even if he does fit what they want to do defensively. And this is going to put him, and it's not a top of the market pass rusher, kind of edge rusher contract, but it is going to put him in the top 10. for outside linebackers, which it's just such a, it's like you said, it's just such an unpatriots like way to go about paying guys. So I'm just really, really curious to see what's changed in New England.

Why are they all of a sudden feeling like they can, you know, spend all this money? The other guys that they signed today, cornerback Jalen Mills was, was the other one. And then who am I missing? Who's the fourth guy that I'm, uh, for getting off the top of my head here? It's not on my list either. I don't know who the, I can't. We'll find one in a second. Jalen Mills, I think that if you look at that, again, it makes sense, right?

He's somebody who has positional versatility. He moved to safety last year, playing closer to the line of scrimmage. We've seen all the things he's done in the past at those different spots. How well he's done that is a different question. I mean, you're really betting on New England's ability and that coaching staff's ability to extract the best out of him. They might be able to. and they love having all those different kinds of defensive backs that can do different things.

But is there some redundancy with Kyle Dugger who they picked? How does this fit in with Devin McCordy's future? All of that. Again, they're paying a lot of money for somebody who was not very good at times in Philadelphia. But like you asked, why are they doing this? Because they know they need answers. They know that they need answers immediately. They looked at what happened last year.

And I've got to think that they came away thinking, And we can't do that again. We cannot have a roster that that's talent that is that talent deficient again. And this is how they're addressing it. It's shocking. But after last year, I can understand why they wanted to go this direction. So when you look at the rest of the AFC East, you know, I think the Jets were the team that had a ton of money to spend. Oh, Devon Godshaw is the other guy they signed the nose tackle from Miami, which makes sense.

Positionally, I think it does. Didn't love the value on it, I think, just in terms. terms of how much that it's day one of free agency man there's got going to be many value value propositions here which that's why it's surprising the days of bill bellichick laying on a dock while everyone else throws their money around those days are very gone we have moved very far away from that to be fair he might be on a yacht right that's possible somewhere you know sitting on a dock and n tuck it while he's making these calls everybody learned they can do all their work from home now so but i just i think it's it's interesting where you know kind of going into this week you looked at

okay, who in the AFC East can spend money. The Jets are at the very top of the list of, you know, who they want to go after. I think interior offensive linemen was a position that they were going to be very interested in, didn't get any of those top three guys available that we just talked about, whether that was Tunney or Corey Lindley or even Kevin Sightler. I believe they signed Gerard Davis from the Lions. So, you know, they got kind of the top linebacker or one of the top linebackers who was available. but Miami has been really quiet so far

and Buffalo has been fairly quiet so far besides resigning some of their own guys in recent days Matt Bolano last week, John Feliciano over the weekend. So what do you think when you look at the AFC East now, just kind of that landscape of that division? Well, with Buffalo, with Buffalo, a lot of that news happened over the weekend, right?

Where they signed Matt Milano that deal, which we hit on last week's show, but then you have guys like Feliziano coming back. And it's interesting because, The bills were aggressive in free agency over the last few years, but it's mostly because they filled so many different positions in free agency. They weren't spending at the top of the market. They were doing a lot of, all right, let's sign two interior pass rushers.

Let's sign a couple different edge guys. Let's sign a couple different receivers in that $8 to $10 million range and try to piece it together. But now they've found those guys. It's a lot easier to sign players to big time extensions or to hand out of little bit more money when you've seen them in the building. We'll get to one of those deals here in a second. But I just think it's a lot safer and GMs are a lot more comfortable when you know the people that you're handing that sort of money to.

It's a lot easier to sign Gianzalifiliano to a multi-year extension when you've seen what he does in your offense. Same goes for Darry Williams, who they re-signed. And that's what I think we're seeing. I think we're seeing the bills understand the formula that they followed last year worked. let's do everything we can to retain that. And that's why I think the Shaq Barrett thing is so fascinating. So the Bucks, I love the fact that Bruce Ariens, however many Coors Lights DP was during that parade, screaming, you guys aren't going anywhere, you're all coming back.

And he actually meant it. Like every single person at that Bucks Boat parade was that dude at two in the morning who's like, we should hang out more. And they actually meant it. They like, this is the first time that everyone was very drunk and throwing around all these lovey-dovey statements and actually followed through on them. And I just think it's fat. I mean, the deal itself is four years, 72 million, which is tolerable. And if you're looking at the edge rushing market, it's a little bit less than guys at the top of that market have made. And this is just a reminder that if you want to keep everyone, you can't.

It just requires some sacrifices later on. Brady doing that extension and adding all those voidable years to those deals, that puts them into a position to be aggressive in ways they hadn't before. One of the reasons that they've been able to do this is because they had no dead money left on their cap. They didn't push money into future years ever. And if you don't have any dead money, that's when the cap is fake. Because then you can do all of these extensions and play with the numbers and everything else. And they were able to do it pretty comfortably.

I mean, this isn't something where they had to do all these crazy restructures. It was only one or two. So they really did put the band back together. Were you surprised that they were able to do this? Or did you think that this was always in the cards for them? I mean, I know that they wanted to. I mean, yes, they were, you know, kind of like drunk and really, really happy at the boat parade. But they were saying that within an hour of the Super Bowl ending, that Sunday night in Tampa.

Bruce Ariens was very clear that this was something that he wanted to happen. But you know, you get a month into it. The agents start talking to each other. You know, the one common thread through a lot of these deals that we've seen today is that most of these guys are represented by Drew Rosenhouse, who's not necessarily a guy who is known for, you know, having his clients take below market deals or team friendly deals. Shack Barrett could have gotten more if he wanted to. Yes. If Shaq Barrett had wanted to reset that market had wanted to be, you know, have the deal that everybody was doing, the eye popping emojis and the holy crap. I can't believe how much he got. He could have done that today. Somebody would have paid him at the very

top of that market. You know, they probably got some calls, you know, really checked out to see exactly what other sort of offers were out there Monday morning and then decided, do you want to break the bank, or do you want to get a very good deal and go back to a place where you know you're comfortable, the scheme fits you, your family is happy, and you could potentially win another Super Bowl next year. And Shaq Barrett was a guy who decided to, I'm going to stay here. And, you know, look, the the bucks have been very good to him so far. I mean, they brought him in when there wasn't a huge market for him two years ago. You know, they kept him on the franchise tag last year with kind of the understanding of we will make this work for you. And come here, we're going to win, we're

building something special, and then it's going to pay off. And ultimately now it is, it's paid off for Shaq Barrett. And, you know, good for him. I mean, he, you know, he probably could have gotten a little more. But this is by far the best situation for him. And it's the best situation for the bucks as well. The same thinking applies here that apply to what we're talking about with the bills. You bring him in on that one year short-term deal. He gets the tag. Now, when you're giving him this massive contract, some of the downsides and pitfalls we

normally see with free agency disappear. You know what kind of guy he is. You know how he fits into your defense. You can have an understanding of what that contract is going to do to his production and everything else. So it's worth taking that chance because you're, no longer concerned. You're no longer concerned with, all right, what is this going to do if we give this guy all of this money? There's a certainty there. And that allows them to sign this deal

without any hesitation where they couldn't have done that two years ago. And you get a slight discount because of the culture that you've built. He wants to be there because of what it feels like there. And in order to understand that and come at that lower price, you have to have him in the building. You have to make the initial signing two years ago the way that they did it. This is why this is fun. The interrap report reporting, the Raiders are close to a deal with Yannick and Gagwe. Makes total sense.

This is becoming an annual thing with the Raiders. They get very excited about the shiny guys in free agency. They pay them top of the market money. And then two years later, they do the whole thing again. Kidding aside, I completely understand why they want to do this. He's a guy that has had fantastic production over the course of his career. I think that there's probably a reason he changed teams twice over the course of the last year. There are some concerns about what he's like in non-defined passing situations,

how good of a run defender is he, everything else. But this is a team that desperately has needed to upgrade its pass rush. He is a very good pure pass rusher. What do you think about in Gokwe to the Raiders, even if we don't know the price yet? God, he's a perfect raider. Like he was born to be a raider. Like at this point, I'm stunned it hasn't happened yet. This is going to be his fourth team and I'm just stunned.

Like he was born to go play for the Raiders. Just I think personality wise he fits. He obviously fits the mold of a Raiders free agent signing. I hope that doesn't mean that he's going to end up being kind of a bust because that's what's happened unfortunately in a lot of the Raiders splashy moves over the last couple of years. But you're right. But you're 100% right that he fills a massive need.

and if he can become a really good player every down where he's not kind of just a third down threat, you know, I think this could be a really, really good signing. I do want to see what the value is over there. The Raiders do have a history of overpaying guys. I think that might be the polite way to say this. So, you know, we're waiting to see exactly what these terms are going to be here. But, you know, they play in a division where there's a lot of really good pass rushers and they have not had any. And I think they're all just tired of answering those questions about who's going to rush the

passer. How are you going to get off to the quarterback? They've tried to address it a lot of different ways over the last few years. None of them have worked since getting rid of Khalil Mack in that trade a couple of years ago. So maybe this can partially be that answer. But I just, I think it fits. He's going to look really cool in silver and black.

You know, he's got like the most ridiculous cross chop move in the NFL. So I'm excited to see that. But I just want to see kind of where he goes in this next phase of his career. I mean, last year was just so tumultuous, going from Jacksonville to Minnesota, then to Baltimore, changing schemes, changing defenses, the whole thing. So now, you know, now at least he'll get to be settled. He's got a long-term contract for we'll see exactly how much money soon. And now the Ravens, I mean, I don't think it's surprising that Incagua and Judon were both going to end up leaving. But the Ravens now have to completely remake that position as well. So this affects a couple of AFC teams.

Yeah. I mean, the Ravens are in their normal things. where they let a pass rusher walk in free agency, get the comp pick a year later, pick a pass rusher with the comp pick, let the pass rusher walk in four years, get the comp pick back. It's a cycle that keeps continuing.

The Raiders, if you look at the way they've spent, obviously they've been really aggressive in free agency over the last few years, the hope has to be that now, with Gus Bradley in there, that scheme-wise, you can start getting the most of some of these players. I think that some of the bets they've made were probably misguided from the start,

whether it's Cleland, with the fourth overall pick, stuff like that. They haven't been consumed with value in the way that they've spent some of these resources. But I do think it's not an accident that those guys consistently have underperformed when Gunther Cunningham, Paul Gunther was there. Now, hopefully, with Bradley coming in, you know, we've seen what he can get from Joey Bosa, Melvin Ingram.

Maybe there's an uptick in the production from some of these additions now that they have a little bit of a better chance schematically to get started here. Also, now that you mentioned Gus Bradley, Gus Bradley was the coach in Jacksonville when Yannick and Gakwe was drafted. That's right. It's a known quantity. And Gakway had some of his best seasons playing for Bradley. So didn't put those two together until you mentioned Bradley and then it clicked.

So there you go. When it's a guy who maybe has had some, you know, he's a fiery guy, right? He's gotten into disagreements with teammates and stuff. But Bradley knows probably how to handle him and maybe how to get the best version of Yonik and Gokwe. So it makes even more sense now that you put the defensive coordinator and player together. I think that it can be funny sometimes when you have these guys with previous connections that that drives free agency. I mean, you think the bills, they've signed so many former Panthers. But that matters.

If you know the guy's personality, if you know what he's like and what he is in certain situations and how you can use him and everything else, it eliminates a layer of risk from this. and when you're spending what I assume is going to be, I don't know, $18 million on a guy, you want to eliminate as much risk as possible. And I think that Bradley's familiarity with him is a way to do that. So let's get to another defensive signing in the AFC that I absolutely love. And that's John Johnson to the Browns. Three years, $33.75 million, $24 million guaranteed. The Brown's plan this offseason was very simple.

They had a lot of money and they were going to spend it on defense. If you look at that defensive depth chart, Miles Garrett, Denzel Ward, and I guess Grant Delpit, he didn't really play last year, but that was it when it came to building blocks that they had on defense. Other than that, they could kind of paint this defense the way they wanted to and use their resources to do exactly that. And I think Johnson makes perfect sense. They're going to be able to line up him and Delpit and Ronnie Harrison together. I think that's going to allow them to marginalize the linebacker position. even more. I don't expect them to sign one.

So I really like this. I think this is a perfect signing in terms of need and a perfect signing for where modern football is headed. What was your reaction when you saw this one? Love it. It was one of my favorite moves of the day. I'm working on a piece that's going to be published later Monday evening on the athletic about kind of superlatives about the day, good value, favorite moves,

teams that may be overspend. And I was harbbing a hard time figuring exactly which category to put this signing in because I think it's a really good value. I also think it's a really good value. fit. So, you know, it's, he's making a lot of money, but he's not resetting the safety market. And, you know, I think it's just a good value for the Browns. And they had to get better on the back end of their defense. It was one of the biggest questions. Every single game that we talked about the Browns late last season as they were making that push where they were in the, even in

the running to win the AFC North, they had to figure out, they just didn't have great answers in their secondary. And John Johnson is going to give them so much flexibility. He's able to play all over that defensive backfield. He's going to be a really good leader. He's just kind of like a tone-setting, fiery kind of guy. Really, really liked him. If you watched Hard Knocks at all last summer, you really liked John Johnson. He's learned from a lot of really good guys.

He played alongside Eric Weddle for a couple of years, and he picked up a lot, I think, from him. So I just, I think it's a really good culture fit. I think it's a great scheme fit. And I'm just really excited about that move. If you're the Browns and you're a Browns fan, they haven't signed a pass rusher yet. Am I becoming? There's still a few really good pass rushers available on the market. But this is a great one.

You went and got the best safety that was out there. And you didn't have to spend a fortune to do it. I love it. I just think that if you look at what he did for the Browns last year, really a ton of awareness, just a really smart player, very good in zone coverage. And you look at that very complicated zone defense the Rams played last year. He was just so comfortable. Also, their signal caller, their defensive play caller at that spot.

I just think having that sort of leadership, intelligence, everything else, as they try to remake this defense is interesting to me. And I know that they're going to try to find some pass rushers. You know, I don't know if they'll be at the top of the market for a guy like Trey Hendrickson or a guy like Carl Lawson or if they'll try to piece this together. I wouldn't be surprised if they were a team that was trying to get Judevian Clowny at a discount. is somebody that really they could just drop in to be a chaos creator along that

offence, along that defensive line with Miles Garrett, that kind of thing where they want to try to find values and piece together the pass rush more than saying we need a $15 million a year guy to pair with Garrett. So I'll be curious how they go about that. But again, all they want to do is add defensive talent and defensive explosiveness. And that's where they're starting with John Johnson, which is great. So one more big signing here, before we get out of here, Romeo O'Cquara, back to the Lions. Three years, $39 million.

Makes sense to me. I loved him. I thought he could help out a lot of teams. But if you're a Lions team that's trying to retain young talent, trying to build this team from scratch, essentially, especially on defense, he's a really good young piece. So it's not surprising to me that he would want to stay. Yeah, I mean, I think our Lions guys were a little surprised that he ended up coming back. I think maybe they just thought he would have a really good market and just might want,

want to go somewhere else. You know, when you look at kind of where the lions have been. But his brother's there too, right? Which is, I think, is something to consider. Yes, his brother is there. Now they're going to kind of be the building block pieces potentially. I believe that's what Chris Burke, our Lions beat writer was writing earlier today. But yeah, it was a little bit surprising that it got done for him to stay and for that deal

to get done early today. But look, I think there were a lot of defensive guys who played for the Lions and were maybe misused over the last couple of years who maybe didn't reach their full potential and, you know, have good talent. And now they can, you know, maybe get into a different scheme, a different coaching staff and might have a little bit more success. So, you know, that was a position that the Lions decided to spend at. They didn't have to, you know, break the bank. I mean, this is not, you know, three years, 39 million. That's not, that's not a massive deal. I think that's kind of in the range of a lot of the deals that we're going to be seeing this year, you know, not market

shattering type of contracts that are getting handed out by any by any means. But, you know, it's good to have a little bit of consistency there because they are losing a lot of their other impending free agents. A couple quick ones here before we get out of here. Jason Verrett back to San Francisco on a one year deal. Love it. He was great for them last year. One year is five and a half million. If he plays at the level he did a year ago, that's a huge bargain for a team that I think is trying to figure out what they want their secondary to be with guys like Kwan Williams and Chiquisky Tart, others hitting free agency. And Darius Williams, first round tender from the Rams, 4.8 million.

He was fantastic last year. So two NFC West corners that know the systems they're about to play in, the coaching staff, everyone is familiar with them there. I think that makes sense to me. And then Roy Robertson Harris, who I think a lot of other people don't really know about, if you're not like a football person, I think he's probably somebody you haven't watched a lot. He was excellent in Chicago, long interior presence. He goes to Jacksonville.

And then I think somebody who plays a similar role or played a similar role in that Bears defense in Denver for Vic Fangio is Shelby Harris, who, again, you know Shelby Harris, but I think other people probably surprised at the money that Shelby Harris got. Where do you think he fits into? Where does he fit into the Broncos defensive plans in your mind? Yeah, well, I mean, they, you know, they already let go of J. Boeh, they let go of A.J. Bouet. So a lot of the guys that they spent money on in recent years that didn't work out. And now he's going to kind of be the focal point of that defensive line, at least at this point.

So Shelby Harris was a guy that they got real cheap a couple years ago. He left to test the free agent market last year, didn't find a massive market, came back to Denver on a one-year deal and was their best defensive lineman, you know, outside of Bradley Chubb. But he was their best, like, interior defensive lineman play in and play out. Just a really good dude, too, just like really love. everybody, you know, everybody loves him in that locker room. And I'm glad to see he got paid and he had to be a priority. I mean, he's just like a great, like Vic Vanjio guy. And the thing that Shelby Harris is known for is he has these just massive hands and he bats down like a ridiculous amount of passes. Like I don't know where it's come from. He's blocked multiple field goals. But I really was happy to see him sign in Denver. And I just think when you talk about a guy like him and the two cornerbacks that you mentioned with Darius Williams and Jason Verrett, you know, and then even to Shaq Barrett, the biggest move. and I think the best moves that often happen in this phase of free agency are the guys who resign with their previous teams.

We get really excited to talk about these guys changing teams, the potential like big money that's getting thrown around for guys to move and switch teams. But ultimately, the decisions are the moves that are going to impact teams the most, a lot of times are the guys that they keep, the guys that they don't let get away. So I think all three of those are really good examples of, you know, smart signings, value signings, guys that, you know, they just value them and they didn't let, ultimately didn't let them leave the building once the market opened. And the same goes for Michael Davis, the cornerback from the Chargers who just reassigned there. I mean, they are in full evaluation mode about how

they want to shape that defense. They seem to think that he was a fit for what they wanted to do. He's back playing for Brandon Staley, which I'm very excited to watch. He's a long, talented guy. I think that makes total sense. Lindsay Jones, thank you very much. We'll talk to you soon. We made it through the show without my preschooler bursting in. It was some sort of a miracle. We're crushing it. It's been a great day. Thank you so much.

We'll talk to you soon. Bye. I'm very happy to welcome now, somebody that I can't believe I haven't had on the podcast yet, almost half a year in. Former NFL player host of Jeff Schwartz is smarter than you, another great football podcast. My good buddy, Jeff Schwartz. How you doing, man?

I am glad to be here. And I am glad that our sport never stops. I don't think we've ever had an offseason like this. Frangisian hasn't even been here. We had no combine either. And every single day, there is someone getting traded, being rumored to be traded, being cut, being released. The salary cap is down a bunch this year. You know, the franchise tag.

Like, it is, it's a great time to cover the NFL. It really is. It's nonstop. So full disclosure, we're recording this on Friday afternoon. It's not going to run until Tuesday. So we're going to try to keep any sort of newsy mentions to a minimum. in order to not make this seem outdated. And it's going to be okay

and it's going to be easy to do because I wanted to have a conversation with you that was more of a look back. So of all the different ways we've talked about free agency on the show here over the last couple weeks, one side we haven't hit is the perspective of a player

who's been through it before. And you have on multiple different levels. I remember the first time you and I ever interacted, this was right before you were hitting free agency in 2014 with the Giants. And I wrote a piece about some of the prospective free agents for Grantland. And you reached out and said, you thanked me publicly for actually watching you play before I wrote about you as a free agent prospect because no one else was going to watch

you as a guard in the limited time you played in Kansas City before they said, oh, yeah, Jeff Schwartz should make this amount of money in free agency this year in this class. So you appreciated that. And I appreciated you noticing it. First of all, we read everything. If anyone tells you they don't read about them or like a coach, it's like, I didn't see that. No, they all saw it.

Yeah, I mean, look, with offense alignment, it's very tough, obviously, to watch everything we do. And pro football focus does provide, you know, a little bit of help with that. I don't always agree with their grades, but I think that they go about it in the right way. And, you know, they generally are pretty accurate. And I was very highly rated with them as well. But it goes further when someone watches your film and, you know, likes what you're doing.

And it's just to me, it's so different how Freednessy is, at least really the money has changed in just seven years. I mean, if you had, you know, let's just assume this year was a normal year for the cap. I mean, I would have made, I don't know, if I was the same player I was in 2013 hitting in 2014 as I am as, as I was now in Freedency. I'd make two and a half, three times as much. It's true. The money is so much different now. I mean, at that point, though, $4 million a year for a starting. level guard was pretty decent money. You got like, you were a coveted, you were a coveted player

in that free agent class. You got money guaranteed, everything else. So I want to talk about that experience first. Because, you know, I've talked with some guys in the past. I remember I mentioned this a couple of shows ago. But when I wrote about the Packers a couple years ago, I had a pretty frank conversation with their free agent class about how they had arrived there, the Smiths, Adrian Amos. And it really was one of the first times that I had gotten to look behind the curtain from the player's perspective. So when you were entering free agency that year, how did the process go? Like what was the first benchmark in your mind of, okay, this is the experience of being an in-demand free agent? Like was it around the combine? Well, so, you know, my path to getting kind of a so-called

second contract was just different than a lot of these guys, right? I mean, I was in years, I was heading to year seven. I had been heard a bunch of my career. I take it some one-year deals. And, you know, with the Kansas City, I'm very grateful for the Chiefs. I mean, they, I started a couple of games early year for injury. And then John Ossemoe, the right guard, got hurt. And I played really well at Denver and then against the Chargers in back-to-back weeks. And they're like, look, you're playing well. We're going to keep you in the lineup.

And I was like, this is not, that's not normal, by the way. Normally they just go back to the starter. And so, you know, I played really well. And, you know, the combine's the first time when you start talking with teams, you know, of course, very quietly because it's not allowed. And my agent just said, like, hey, these teams are kind of interested. But the first time I realized I wasn't going to be back in Kansas City was when the chiefs offered me like a nothing deal. And then I realized like very quickly like, okay, I'm out of here.

I'm preparing to go somewhere else. And then my agent told me he had a number to get. He said, he wanted to get $4 million a year. No one believed he can get that for me. Again, considering my age, my injury history and just kind of I really, I had an entire season worth of film since 2010, right? I mean, I played well in 2013, but I started, I think, only seven or eight games. And the tampering period, that was the first or second year of the legal tampering period. And it just happened to fall on the day of my wedding.

So, yeah. So I got me. I'm sure your wife was thrilled. So, okay, so my wife doesn't pay attention to any of this. So she had really had no idea. So the morning of the wedding, my wife and her party are at the hotel. I'm at my parents' house. and we're on the West Coast.

So 9 a.m. is when the tampering period opens up. And so it's always so funny to me that you guys are from L.A. kids. You don't seem like it at all, but continue. We are, yes, we are very much L.A. kids. So my agent who's obviously at the wedding, he gets a bunch of calls at 9-m.

We were having like an out-of-town brunch at my parents' house the morning of the wedding. And so like at 920-ish, 925, Derek is like, look, we've gotten like as many calls as, we're probably going to get, let's go talk about it. So we went in the living room, was me, my dad, my brother, my uncle, I believe my uncle was there. And we just listed out there were nine teams that called them.

And we kind of made like a pros and cons list. I remember distinctly saying like any team in California had to offer me a lot more because of taxes. Like that's a real thing. And I was like, look, I think the Raiders were, I was like, look, I don't want to go there. But if they want to offer me X amount more than anyone else, sure, I'll go there. But we kind of have the Giants as the lead from the beginning.

beginning. I think my agent thought after the combine, they were very interested in me. And when you look at the teams and where I was positioned and where they were positioned, the Giants just felt a good fit, right? For years, their offensive line had been outstanding when you look at that Super Bowl-winning offensive line. And of course, with Coughlin, Eli, and just living in New York City was a place that we wanted to go and they game with the best offer. And really, I mean, I think people believe these offers like that you haggle for, and I think for quarterbacks you do, like that press got, it's a haggle back and forth, right?

Pat Mahomes, I think for a lot of these other deals, it's not. I think people think they go back. I think it was like, okay, here's what we're looking for. The Giants offered. We countered. Okay, we're good. By that night after my wedding, and I knew again, I knew what the target number was, $4 million a year.

after the wedding my agent came up to me we're at the at the um what's it called when after the wedding the cocktail reception oh the cocktail he goes we're good we got what we wanted from the giants we're good and i was like all right cool told my wife and she's like how many deeper are you at that point were you doing it were you doing okay so i don't drink so i was i was pretty sober i think actually the last time i might have like really gotten a little buzz was probably at the wedding i took a little bit later in the night um we just like finished pictures again like it was like it was crazy and I told my wife and Marath had like no idea she's like whatever I don't really know what you're talking about and then the next couple of days nothing really budged

the friend she opened us I flew home and then it was it like uh... I think Frangely was Monday or Tuesday to the first start of the league year and my agent called me and goes look the Rams wants you they're offering about the same as the as the Giants but we're going to New York and I was like okay fine he goes just when they call you at four clock don't take the call. So I think I think I turned down talking to Jeff Fisher. Like they called at four o'clock. I just went right to voicemail. Giants called me. Giants called me at 401 or something, scheduled my flight. I knew that I was going to get money. I knew whatever I got was going to be more than I ever made in my career. But I did not know I was going to get the money that I thought I

get till the day of my wedding, like until nine teams called, right? Like until it was a big deal that everyone called, I did not know I get as much as we thought I get. People told my agent, we're never getting formula in a year. So I was pretty pumped that we got, we got a tiny bit over that. So I was pumped about that. I think that the number of teams in the running really helps shape the market for guys. And that makes sense, right? It's the demand and it dictates how much you're going to make.

But I talk to agents a lot about this. And the idea of going from two to three teams can be a huge multiplier in the amount of money that you could potentially make because you can pit them against one another. So until you know exactly how many teams are going to be in, it's hard to gauge exactly what your market is going to be. And I think this year especially has been really murky on the agent's side. There are just so fewer answers because there have been fewer conversations in the way that we typically have them at the combine, everything else.

So I think there's kind of a shroud of mystery over what it's going to look like more than there is in a typical year. I think that's definitely true. And also, in most seasons, if you, you know, there's like 12 wide receivers, right, that are high quality. I'd say, you know, middle to high quality guys. I think in most years, all of them just get paid a lot of money. This year, you know, I think agents are trying to figure out, like, is my guy, like that

top guy that everyone's after? Am I the next, am I the next tier? Because there's not enough money to go around this year. There really is not because of the cap situation where everyone's at and the lowering of Sarah Cap. So I think agents are also trying to figure out, like, where does my guy fit? Is he a guy that everyone wants to? wants to pay right away.

Is he like, yeah, he's one C for the team. Is he two? And no one really knows. And plus there's more cuts coming. Like teams have to get under the cap. And so there's going to be more free agents fought in the market before the starter for agency than ever before. And you look at it.

I think the receiver group is a good spot to look at. Let's say how many teams are in the market for a true number one guy with the money to spend on it? The Jets, Washington. I don't think the Colts will spend on a true number one guy. But they have the money to do it if they want to. Yes. So, but I almost am writing them off because I just don't think that's something.

What about Miami? So Miami, I think, would be the third. Maybe. So let's say there are three guys. So let's say that three of them are in the market for a Kenny Gallaudet type. If you removed Kenny Gallaudet from that equation, then Corey Davis comes up into that three teams looking for a number one receiver thing. So just the little tiny changes are so important. So when you were making those pros and cons list as you were looking at those teams,

teams. What were the factors that you had listed and how did you kind of stack them up if we're removing money from the equation? Well, that's like 90% of it, right? I know that. I know that it's the biggest part. And it's so funny because you said, my agent told me we're going to New York. I think that is more common than people think from the outside. We're just like, no, that was the best offer. That's what we're doing. Well, I think that here's the thing. And JJ Watts is a good example of this because he signed with the Cardinals is a lot of players say, I'm going to take less because I want to go do this and that. Yep.

And guys, it's hard to turn down millions of dollars. Like, JJ Watt, I mean, there was that one report from Arizona that someone offered him more. That's just not true,

okay? No one offered them more than $23 million guaranteed. He took the best offer. I can tell you that right now. I know he did. And so it's hard to turn down, like let's say the next best offer, I would imagine,

maybe you know best. I'm just guessing was, instead of 23 million guaranteed, it was 12. I don't know, 10 or 12 sounds probably about what it would have been maybe one-year deal around there somewhere. That's a lot of $10 million, it's a lot of money, even for guys you have money.

And so, yes, you go to where the money is. Very rarely are guys taking significantly less to go somewhere. It's just like, look, the Giants deal was structured better. We're going there. So back to your question about what mattered to me. I think location mattered, you know, like I think the chance to win mattered a lot too. And the Giants obviously had shown the ability with Tom Coughlin to win. Even when I was there, we weren't very successful.

but I always thought in the back of my head, like, especially in 2015, we were six and six or five and five at the time. It's like, look, we just go in a run. They've done it before. We just go to run. We can do it. So I wanted to win. I think the success of their offensive line in the past had been something that was very important to me. Did you know anyone there?

Did you ask, did you talk to anyone who had played for him or played in that building? No, I hadn't. And what's really interesting looking back on it is I think offensive alignment now. now maybe, are more conscious of play style. So I look back on it and I did not fit the Giants offense at all. Like with Ben McAdoo wanted to do, zero percent. They were in shotgun and two point stances. I am not a shotgun, two point stance guy.

I want to give me a three point stance in shotgun. I'm fine. I wasn't in shotgun now. I shouldn't fit their offense. And if I had maybe known like they were going to be in this offense, maybe I choose to go somewhere else. The thing about St. Louis, I was thinking of myself like, I'm in the NFC West.

There was the Justin Smith and Ray McDonald. There was Aaron Donald just been drafted, I think. There was a couple guys of Arizona, the Seattle defense. I was like, look. Clias Campbell was still there in Arizona. Yeah, guys like that. Doc it might have been there. That was his tail end of his career there.

Yep. And then Seattle was, there were like Super Bowls. And I was like, I don't want to go there. Like, I want a chance to win. I want a chance to like go to New York. So that all played a role in it. But yeah, the scheme thing is really interesting because the more I'm out of the NFL, the more I look at these

kind of things like scheme to me, scheme fit, they don't match up with offensive alignment as much as they should. It's a problem. And if I had known, maybe I choose somewhere else. When Mitch was picking between teams, I know that you told him about what Kansas City was

like and what playing for Andy Heck was like and everything else. What else about his process sticks out to you? Well, just the Browns and like the way they handled it. And just kind of the way that it was, that for me, the way that things were leaked out about what happened. Like everyone thinks the Brown has been made the best offer.

They did not make them the best offer. Guaranteed money is important in offers. Like you could offer someone a five-year deal for $100 million, but you guarantee only one of the seasons. Is that better than a five-year deal for $15 million, but you guarantee two seasons? Like it's the guaranteed money is what matters in the NFL. Otherwise, you just cut you after one season.

Like, that's what matters. It wasn't that extreme. I think that was it to me, like just the way the Browns handled it from their end. I was very happy I went to Kansas City. The one thing about that year is the right tackle market just didn't go up. And I don't know why.

Everyone was saying like Mitch is going to get $8, 9 million a year. It wasn't like it was a, it wasn't like we just made that number out of our minds. And then Kansas City, obviously, I think it was 6 and a half somewhere around there. It's a great, great deal for him. It was his big second contract too.

That I remember most about it. It just was a very weird year. Like it, again, everyone, I mean, you probably wrote the same thing. Like Mitch is getting $8,9 million a year. So everyone thought and just did not happen. I remember that now. I forgot.

I hadn't thought about that for a little while, but the stagnation of that market was really interesting. And it kind of, it, excuse me, it took Lane Johnson to kind of jar it out of that. And the only reason that that even happened is because the understanding was that they were paying him anticipating that he eventually moved to left tackle. Yeah. And it just, it never made any sense to me. And I think that if you look at.

the movements of the market at a lot of other positions, you get it, right? Like, I think that it makes sense that running backs have been devalued when you think about the replaceability of the position, even though it sucks for that. If you look at the amount of safeties hitting the market and where you can find acceptable safety play, third round, fourth round, especially as teams go more to too high, you can understand why there are more safeties at a cheaper price available in free agency. but at right tackle, it doesn't make sense. At this point, it's almost as valuable as having a left tackle.

And it's just the scarcity and the depressed market there never really tracked to me in the same way it might in other positions. Well, I think we're getting out of that. I mean, the Trent Brown signing obviously now he's with New England, but like paying Trent down all that money to play at right tackle. Yep. John James got a really nice contract to play right tackle. And I think in the, I think of the draft with what Tristan Worst did, right? you sign them, you put them on the team and he made Tampa Bay that much better. You know, this draft is more left tackle dominated.

I think, you know, there's some right tackles that maybe the end of the first round. But I do think teams are valuing it a little bit more. Now, the money obviously is not quite as the same. But when Mitch was signed, it wasn't valued quite the same. And what's interesting is he was signed in a division that had Von Miller and Bosa eventually got drafted there. And Kaleo Mack. And Kalea Mac. And Kalea Mac.

These guys were there. Now, again, Bosa was drafted. I think the year Mitch was there. So he wasn't drafted quite yet. But you're paying him all his money to block the best guys. And you're not paying him like your left tackle. I remember he and I had a conversation that year or the year after. And I was reading off the schedule to him just what it was like every single week.

And he didn't have like a week off like nine weeks of the season. For whatever reason, that year just broke wrong. But that's just like the NFL man. Like, when do you, when do you get a week? I mean, this year, it was this year or last year, it was relatively easy for him. I wasn't, it wouldn't be this year. Maybe it was 2019 or 2018 where like, you know, Wolf-Miller got hurt or something like that and Bosa was hurt in the game they played.

But it's never, that's the thing about the NFL. People ask me the difference between the college, the NFL. And my answer is always in the NFL, you're playing NFL players every week. Like they're, they're all good. In college, you, you know, play Washington State or Oregon State. You're not facing a pro defensive end. It's like every week, that's the thing about it's just. this league is it's hard and right tackle again i don't i don't think it's being valued as much even though it should

so when you got to new york and you lived in new jersey but when you arrive in a building as that free agent how do you start making connections like is your first day there i'm sure you talk to your offense volume coach or the head coach or whoever but how quickly do you reach out to other guys in the room how much do you know them before you get there what's the problem of acclimating to a new team when you sign a deal like that? So I sought out Chris Knee first. Chris was still there. He was the veteran of the group, obviously a fantastic player from the Johnson.

He's in the ring of honor there now as well, two-time Super Bowl champion. But he was injured, but he was still there and he was still part of the team. And so he was the first guy I called and tried to get a relationship with. How do you get that number? Do you have mutual friends? I think I just asked the offensive line coach, something like that. I was curious about that But like when I

You know When Eric Fisher got drafted I was in Kansas City Or like When we drafted I think Eric Flowers In New York like I just I text the old line coach Like hey can I get his number

And send him a text Like I think that's just it's pretty simple So just you know Just like Chris He was the oldest guy on the team And you know The veteran who everyone looked up to So I sought him out

And when the first day I got there I went and talk to Eli I would imagine I'm not sure I don't know if Eli text me or not When I got signed there And you just go to work when you get there, right?

You just try to make friendships. You know, every place I went to, I tried to, you know, my wife came up. We went to dinner with, I don't know if we went to dinner with Chris or not. Maybe we did. You remember like Weston when Weston was drafted. You know, I knew Weston anyways. So that was easy enough. But I think you just, you just co-find the veteran and start talking to veterans.

And you get in the building, the equipment managers know everything. Those are guys to be friends with as well. So you get there, you make friends with those guys. And you're just like anyone in a new job. You go in there, you give effort. and you have fun and you enjoy yourself and you make friends. The Giants is, it's, it is unique there. I enjoy my time there, but not like a lot of places.

In what way? You know, at least in the offensive line, like, it's very, you know, very much. And this is again, for various, their offense line was fantastic. I remember we watched them when I was in Carolina in 08, like as a rookie. We watched them play all the time. They were a great offensive line. But those guys were gone. And they just still kind of like didn't realize they had new offensive linemen that weren't those guys.

And that was it was like tough to be in their shadow. You know what I mean? Like they were all gone. And yet it just felt like they were still there. That makes sense. Just like the way they went about teaching it and the expectations and all that kind of stuff. Well, expectations are you should always have high expectations. That's not like a thing.

Of course you should be high expectations. But like I was never, I was not Chris Snee. Like I was never trying to be Chris Ney. And my coach, man, like, I'm, I'm not Chris. Like, I'm like, I'm not, I don't do what he does. I don't do it as well. I'm not 6.3. Like, I'm 6.7.

Like, that's like you got to kind of, that's, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not that player. It's just, it was interesting dynamic there. Again, I loved being there. I love the team. The ownership was great, the training staff. Like, everyone was great. Everyone was awesome.

But it just was a unique vibe in that offensive line room. When you get paid. and you arrive as that guy rather than somebody fighting for a roster spot. Is it just a different feeling going to work every day? How does the dynamic shift when you kind of step into that range of player? I mean, obviously, you're now kind of looked at as more like of a leader, obviously. But I think you have to kind of earn it. Like you can't just go in there and expect everyone to think, you know, that you deserve that money.

And my problem was I got her right away. Like I got to New York. I was playing out of position. I was playing left guard. and I got hurt in the preseason. And I wasn't playing as well left guard as I had played my entire career at right guard and right tackle. And so camp wasn't going as well as probably I wanted it to go.

Precinct games were fine. I was playing okay. And I just got hurt. And so like they pay me all his money and then I got hurt. And I think the common misconception about guys getting paid is that we then like we shut it down. Like we don't want. No, it's the opposite.

Like I wanted to prove I was worth the money. I wanted to prove to my teammates to my own. to ownership, to everyone else that they paid the right guy. They paid me this money. I could deliver on what they were paying me to do. And I regret I wasn't able to do that because I was, I was always hurt. And like the first year I'm there, you know, I get hurt in the preseason. It wasn't like I was hurt in the regular season.

I got hurt in the preseason. And then I got hurt again when I came back. And the whole first year I was there. I was basically an injured reserve. And I was the first starter NFL history to be injured reserve twice in one season. And just that, it's hard to develop all that when you're hurt. I can't remember when you were in Carolina or KC that one year, were there any big free agent signings when you were in Carolina that like you were a part of the fabric of the locker room and you watched a big name guy come in?

Because they weren't really in that phase of the franchise at that point because 2010 was that disaster year. So you might not have even been around somebody like that. I mean, the only one is Cam when he showed up in 2011. And like, you know, it was, I mean, his presence was felt right away, right? And we saw how charismatic he was and what are he doing in the field. no we brought in i mean i was there always with draft picks like i was jeff ottoe was drafted the same year i was in carolina matt kalil was drafted in the first round by the vikings when i was there the vikings and then fisher was drafted in the first round when i was with kansas city

and then eric flours were drafted in the first round it was like it was draft picks it wasn't like phrasidic guys it was draft picks that were brought in to play on especially the offensive lines as far as like i came in the same year with like rachad jennings who played for the Giants for three years or so. But Carolina, we didn't have, you know, we had Pep and he left eventually and Steve Smith. And, you know, he was, he got an extension. Jordan Gross got an extension when I was there. But we didn't bring in anyone, not really.

What is your favorite Julius Pepper story? Oh, I got one. You'll like this. So he goes to the Bears in 2010. Oh, I remember. And we're playing, do you remember this play I'm about to say? I do. I do. I think I've shared it with you before. So our OC's Jeff Davidson and Jeff says all week,

we're running a wide receiver screen. And he goes, look, guys, we're not going to run it to Jew's Pepper's side. Whatever side he's on, if I call it, Jacob, Matt Moore will audible out of it or I'm just not going to call it. And I'm playing right tackle this point. And because what happens on wide receiver screens that tackle is one or two things. Either he jumps the defensive end to get his hands down or he cuts up. Well, Pepper is you don't really run and jump. He's just not going to happen. So you cut Pep. And you're not going to cut him.

He's too fucking big. You're not going to cut Julius Peppers. And I'm 6'6. I'm like cutting anyone anyways. So of course, he calls the play, right, to Drew's Pepper's side. I go to cut peppers. It was actually Claussen. Jimmy Clausom's.

Yes. Oh, we're going to talk about that in a second. So don't worry. I go to cut Julius Peppers and he plays off my cut, hits the ball up in the air and intercepts it. Well, like I lay on the ground. It was ridiculous. He was so good, man.

He was a handful. I want to say, I think I can comfortably say, that you were a part of the ugliest football game I think I've ever seen in my entire life that day. It was, that is the, oh, the Bears Panthers game from 2010, in my opinion, is the worst combined quarterbacking

I've ever seen during an NFL game. I remember where I watched this game, it was so terrible. Was the Bears quarterback like five for 18 or something? Like it was... So here we go. Todd Collins was the Bears quarterback in that game. He finished six of 16 for 32 yards and four interceptions.

Okay? Bears won by the way. The Bears won by two touchdowns. Jimmy Cawson, 9 of 22 for 61 yards and an interception. Matt Moore in relief. Five of 10 with two. picks on 10 attempts. The Bears scored 23 points in that game.

In part because Matt Forte was amazing that day. I remember that and that Julius Pepper's play, 23 points in a game where your quarterbacks combined 8 of 19 for 51 yards and four interceptions. It was a truly special time for the Chicago Bears organization and offensive football in general. Well, yeah, yeah, we won two games that year. not a lot of fun to win two football games. Yeah,

I got more stories from that year than like any other season I ever played, man. It was, we had to try to have as much fun as possible to get through it. How do you go about that? Is there like little tiny moments of levity? Do you like play more games as like an offensive line room? Like how do you distract yourself from how terrible that can be? Well,

we still worked our asses off and we didn't win, but we practiced. I didn't feel like we ever, anyone ever packed it in. We put our asses off. We just suck. When this happens, you have a really bad quarterback,

and you cut all your veterans. And you just try to have fun every day. I mean, Jordan Gross and Ryan Khalil are like the two best. They kept everything so loose and, you know, made it enjoyable to come to work every day. And,

you know, it was, it was a tough year, but a year that, again, like we just, they just, the pranks and the joking.

And I think that year, I think they did a prank. It must have been that year. So I had gotten engaged to my wife, the current wife, my only wife. I don't plan on another one. I'm going to say to you have more than one. I only plan to have one. And they made fake wedding invitations and put them on everyone's chair in the facility,

including the coaches and like equipment staff. So it was like, you know, Jeffrey Aziz Schwartz and they made up my wife's middle name. And they said that was getting married at Temple Israel and like California and whatnot. And then they spent a thousand dollars like real actual like invitations. So we were at practice. That's the thing is the quality of prank can be pretty high among people with a lot of money. Oh, yeah. So we were, um, we were at practice that day and a bunch of coaches and like stacking up and

we were like, hey, I can't attend your wedding, but like things anyways, I'll send you a gift. And I was like, it's not a real wedding, guys. Um, it's like stuff like that. Like just like. It's a really subtle prank. Like to think to make other people think you would be the type of guy that would invite people to your wedding that way. It's like a really nice little dig at somebody.

All right. The last thing I want to talk about before we get out of here. very quickly. I want to know more about your long snapping career. Where did it go awry? How did you get by with only snapping with one hand for that long? So great question. Yeah.

So I snapped in high school and I did field goal and never had a bad snap. I was really good at it. And my high school coach, I remember just told me when you cover, when you run down to cover, just make the return or choose a direction. It's like my only thing I had to do. Like don't make the time.

Just like choose it. Like make him run on the sideline, basically. So I had zero tackles. Get to college and I was good at it. Like I was just and they were like, all right. Well, do you snap two handed? I go, no. I snap one handed.

And they were like, well, they made me change that when I was a freshman in high school, by the way. I tried to snap one handed. When you snap two handed, you kind of wrap your hand like around the bottom of the ball, right? Yeah.

So what I did was I just, when one handed you don't, it's almost like you'd snap it like an actual center. Like kind of like up. So I just put my hand like this like to kind of. to be like, all right, look, guys, my hands on the ball. Look. And so, yeah, in college, I was the backup, man.

I practiced in practice. Like, I remember I had to run down one time and cover. I think it was against Walter Thurman. You're playing the NFL for like six, seven years. I tackled him in practice. And the reason why I tackle him in practice was because he tried to juke me out and I couldn't stop. So I just kept like, like he caught the ball was like trying to, and I just ran straight forward.

Like I couldn't like, I couldn't break down. Like Luis Mendoza and the Mighty Ducks. Just can't slow down. Exactly. So, yeah. I did that in college. I never got in the game. Fortunately,

Eric Steimer was our snapper for four years. And then the NFL, I didn't do it in Carolina. And then I got to Kansas City and I was, you know, like I was, it's my last year, basically.

If I didn't play one in Kansas City, I was done. So I told the coach like, I was like, hey, man, I could snap. You mean a snap just like, to basically be like, hey, I can help the team out,

right? So I, in camp, I come out early and snap every day. I only ever gone in practice. And then Detroit did a little bit of that. But then in New York in Detroit, I was like emergency center too, which is just the worst ever.

So funny, man. I could play a guard and tackle and pre-snap. It'd be in my stance and see everything fine. Call the mic out, see the safeties. I don't have to see. Go to center, man. Put a ball in your hand. It's over.

Freak out. I'd be like, uh, uh, Mike 54. Is that right? Like, I'm like, if I say guard, I'd be like, 54 Mike, done. Dude, center is a trip. My first time ever, on with this, first time ever snapped in practice was with the Giants. I never played center in my career. I wore an actual hard thumb cast on my right thumb.

My thumb is bad. I would take it on and off every day. Like, it was a slit in it. I take it on and off. So I'm going to thumb cast and my fingers are taped like buddy taped together. So barely hold on the ball, okay? So I, and I never take a stab with Eli ever. And Eli, like, would ride like the center's butt really hard.

I don't know what I'm doing. So I get under there. Eli's like, hike. He's like, snatches my ass. And I just, I fumbled it. And they're like, get the fuck out of here, Schwartz. Yeah, that's, honestly, though, that's the best thing to do to screw it up on the first one. I wasn't trying to screw up.

But like, they like cussed me out. I'm like, what do you want me to do? You tanked it. I know you did. What do you want me to do? It's the first time I ever doing this. Don't cuss me out the first time I ever do it. They're going to all you with me.

I do regret not pursuing my long snapping career. You should have done it, man. I'm only like 60% kidding about it. So this is what happened. So very quickly, nobody cares about this. So I was really good at it. Like, legitimately. good at it. I went to a camp between my junior and senior year of high school. It was like a regional

recruiting camp for kickers and punters and long snappers. And I won the camp, whatever that means. But like, the long snapper for Virginia Tech was one of the counselors. The longsapper for the Colts. Everyone there was like, you know, just send tapes, you know, you'll do it whatever. So I was fully ready to try to like be a division one long snapper. And then my senior year, I started on offense and defense, which didn't happen at my high school. I was the first guy in like five or six years. We had like, not 18 players. We basically had. everyone play both ways. We had 115 guys in the team, so no one ever played both ways. So I, but they had me play both ways. And they were like, the junior long snapper is pretty good. We, we, you can't be on every special team and play offense and defense. So they just took me off the pun team.

So I just never got to do it. And it was it. When you were like, that was it? You weren't like, I want a long snap. I literally was trying to take one for the team. And I was just trying to do the best. I was the captain. I just felt it was the best thing for everybody.

So I just didn't do it. I still to this day, it is the, the skill that I have, like compared to the general population, it might be the thing that I was best at in my entire life, like not a joke. It's a good skill to have. I mean, you know, I don't know if you have kids like that's my son's. I certainly don't. My son's a little scrawny kid.

I mean, maybe I'll, he's tall, very tall. Maybe he'll get him to long snapping too. That's what you got to do. That's the move. Either golf and long snapping is like going to be a great combination. The Panthers just re-signed JJ Jansson again. You know, I think he was, I think he came in 2010 maybe. I mean, he's made it like a million dollars a year.

That's like 12 years. It's the move. When I have a kid, if I have a kid, that will be the first thing I do. It's like, all right, here you do. This is how you do this. All right. Jeff Schwartz, thank you very much, buddy. It's always good to talk to.

Great to get your insight. I really appreciate it. I'm sure we'll do this again. All right, sounds good, bud. Take care. All right, guys. That's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Jeff Schwartz for stopping by.

Thank you to Lindsay Jones for recapping day one of the tampering period. We will be back tomorrow with Nate. to do something similar. We're going to hit everything that happens on day two. It's going to be really wild. I'm very excited about it. Until then, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Really appreciate that.

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