The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Genealogy of the 2022 Chiefs and Eagles

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Super Bowl week has arrived! Which recent Super Bowl teams do these Chiefs and Eagles most resemble? Robert Mays and Nate Tice investigate their genealogy on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's episode is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.comPeloton: Try Peloton risk free with a 30-Day Home Trial, New Members only at onepeloton.com/home-trialBurrow: Show Burrow you’re listening to The Athletic Football Show by shopping at burrow.com/mays and get 10% off your first orderAllbirds: Discover your perfect pair of Wool Runners at Allbirds.com todayBlue Nile: Find the perfect piece of jewelry for life’s special moments and save up to 50% now at bluenile.comBetter Help: Visit BetterHelp.com/mays today to get 10% off your first month6:21 The Chiefs as the 2014 Patriots14:23 The Chiefs as the 2016 Falcons20:35 The Chiefs as the 1988 49ers26:22 Kansas City's strong foundation38:10 The Eagles as the 1992 Cowboys50:55 The Eagles as the 2018 Rams Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today. It's my good friend Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing very, very well. This is great.

I love when we come up with a new show idea. And really, this isn't May, though. We're doing this. Like, that's how I know me and you were really peeking this season. We're coming up with these ideas still technically within the season. Still doing this. We still have the Super Bowl to go. So, no, I'm doing absolutely wonderful.

I had a great dinner last night in Vegas. Oh, great. I went to Sinatra's at the win or the encore, and it's just like a really fancy. That sounds amazing. It's Sinatra's exactly what you expect. Fantastic. Absolutely amazing. Had a penny, like a sausage penny bowl that was just like crumbled sausage, sweet peppers.

And it's like the best sweet peppers I've ever had my life. And I was like, why is this in a pasta bowl? It was like too good. But yes, I'm doing wonderful. How are you? Different background right now. I'm in Mexico. I know.

My fiance and I, it was like zero degrees in Chicago. We're deciding. We're going to work for Mexico City for like three days. It's awesome. Off week. And it's the same as flying to LA, door to door to get to your hotel. Is that what it is? Yeah.

So same time zone. And we've just been working from here. And I also had an amazing dinner last night. I went. And we've been eating very, very well for the last couple days. So I'll just fly straight to the Super Bowl. And we won't even think twice about it. Maybe next year you and I'll go to the Senior Bowl or something.

but we'll figure out a plan. But you're talking about this show is, it's interesting because when you do this for a really long time, this Monday of the Super Bowl is tough because you don't want to start previewing the game, but you still want to talk about the game. And it becomes difficult year after year to find different ways to talk about the game. And one of the things that we wanted to try to explore in this show is looking at the Chiefs and the Eagles and trying to figure out their genealogy of sorts as Super Bowl teams. So over the last decade or so, those are the teams I looked at, at least, the teams in the modern

salary cap era. So essentially since the second most recent CBA was installed in 2011 or some of the teams that I was looking at, what from those teams they either played in or won the Super Bowl? Can we learn about these teams? Which teams can we compare the Chiefs and Eagles to? what sort of little lessons or hints about this year and then the future may be waiting for us from like recent Super Bowl past. So this is like the ghost of Super Bowl's past are coming to visit the Chiefs and Eagles right now. And we're going to kind of facilitate some of those interactions and conversations today.

It's perfect. And I love when we were trying to come up with the show going like trying to figure out exactly how to frame it. And the genealogy is perfect because you're like, well, this is a little bit of this. oh it's got that this team's got that team's eyes with it you know i think they got it yeah yeah yeah yeah like that's that's exactly what this went through i have mostly more modern comparisons but actually i'm pretty excited because i found some like kind of a couple older more of historical historical comparisons yeah and there's one with the eagles i'm pretty excited to dive into but it's uh this was a lot of this was fun exercise because it was almost it's a nice

fun history refresher we get so locked into the season usually don't get to look at all the kind of grand scheme thing. So after the season, it was kind of fun to like hold a lens to what's going on right now and hold of comparisons and also like dive into some of these teams that won Super Bowls are lost and go like, oh yeah, they had this guy. Oh yeah, that happened to this team. That's fun. For someone that loves football history, it was it was kind of like a nice having to work for my fun, which I always like to do. I, for the most part, I have one team for each of these that I feel like has a lot of comparison points. So I'm glad that you've picked in shoes,

different sort of qualities and different sort of characteristics of them. Let's start with the chiefs. And the reason I want to start with the chiefs is that I think the chiefs are a little bit more difficult for a few different reasons, okay? So this is something that I'm sure we'll dig into either after this game or sometime this offseason.

We got a lot of mailbag questions about it for the show I did with Mitch this week, but it just is a bigger topic than one answer. from one mailbag show. But my starting point with Kansas City is Patrick Mahomes is making 17% of the 2022 salary cap. This would be unprecedented

for a team that wins the Super Bowl in the modern salary cap era again, since that 2011 CBA at the very least, that we have seen a quarterback making that much money take up this much of the salary cap. So it was hard to kind of find

one-to-one comparisons for way this chief's team is built and the way that we've seen Super Bowl winners or even a lot of Super Bowl teams over the last decade or so and how they were built. So where did you start with kind of your comparison points for this Chief's team specifically? My first note was just Patriot teams. And that is the natural starting point. So I just started diving in one after another. And it was like not the early 2001. I looked at a lot of like team makeup and kind of some more narrative of a lot of these teams. So the one that I actually felt, ended up feeling pretty good about was the 2014 Patriots.

And that is a, I was a high powered offense, had an average defense, especially for a Belichick defense. They were 12th in DVA this year. The Chiefs, I believe, are 16th right now. I believe they are fourth. This Patriots team was fourth in offense. Chiefs obviously are one or two at this point in time. But a good offense with an all-time quarterback whose best weapon was a tight end, an all-time

tight end, and Gromk, and we got Travis Kelsey, and then a random. assortment of other receivers that Tom Brady was throwing to that year. His top two other receivers were Julian Elderman and Brandon Lafell. And I know we think of Julian. Oh my God, the Braden Lafell team. Right? I know. And Shane Vareen.

It was good to see Shane Vareen's name again. But it was, that was his top three non-Garck receivers, you know, Shane Vering. Do you remember how many passes Shane Vering caught in that Super Bowl? Oh, my God. Well, him and then didn't, well, than James White later a few years later, too. But yes. Oh, I know. All those guys.

Shane in that Super Bowl, which, by the way, my first. Super Bowl I ever went to. And it was in Phoenix. So it'll be back in Phoenix. It was the first Super Bowl I ever went to. We're nine years later here. This is perfect. See, that's another comparison.

Robert Bage is going to the Super Bowl in Phoenix. Yes. I even found funny was that the QBR of Tom Brady that year, 77.2, Mahomes, 77.6 this year. Did he win the MVP that year? Who won the MVP in 2014? I believe he was a first team all pro. I don't know who was MVP that year.

That should actually would be a really. Oh, it was Roger. Of course it was Rogers. Oh, Rogers. That was the crazy 2014 Packers team. So Shane Verene caught 11 passes in that Super Bowl, if you recall, against that Seahawks team. 11. He had 12 targets and 11 catches.

That's perfect. Tim Wright was ready to see that name. Yeah, Tim Wright. Oh, my God. This is just going to be guys talking about dudes podcast. Yes. Really, oh, just you guys wait. There's just you wait.

But I thought, really? breaking down this chiefs team and we're doing this genealogy style. Like this is this 2014 Patriots is like 75% of the chiefs for me. It's like a, uh, this is the Irish side of them. Their parent is full Irish. This mom is half Irish,

you know. And so this is, really the comparisons in just like the, it felt like a transition year for the Patriots, even with them winning, even the projected win loss at the beginning of year. Same as the chiefs this year. 10 and a half games.

Uh, I know there's 17 games now, but we'll call it the same. But just more of the overcame, still had a fantastic offense with question marks about receiving options and the run game with a fairly pretty good offense align, a good offensive system, and a defense that fine, a fine defense. I know Belichick was really those Patriots teams were expected so much more over the years. But still, in a team that felt like it was in transition, re-changing their identity again, like those Patriots teams did under Brady and Belichick for years and years and years. still had success with it. So this was the one I felt most good about of those Patriots teams comparing it to the Chiefs teams.

The sustained success between the head coaches and the quarterback, all these conference championship games, that's another comparison between them as well. But I felt pretty good about it as I started diving more into, especially with the offensive team makeup. Obviously, that's going to be the comparison point because this is the Chief's third Super Bowl in four seasons. When you're getting back at this sort of rate, the only team that's really done that, that is New England over the last two decades.

So those comparisons are totally valid. And the defensive makeup is interesting. You look at the roster and what they were spending on certain guys. It's much lower. And we'll get into that in a second than what the chiefs are spending on individual defensive players. But, you know, Vince Wilfork was a mainstay on those teams. So was Gerard Mayo. Devin McCordy was, you know, I think probably halfway through his career.

I think Devin McCordy was drafted in 2010. So by that point, he was still an established player. A lot of those defensive guys were, again, had been around for a little while. So I understand the comparison of the Patriots and I understand wanting to make it. But when I was looking at it like one step further, it's hard to make those comparisons just because, again, Brady was making like 10% of the cap at most all of these years. And I know it was a talking point in the moment that he was willing to take less money and the flexibility that gave the Patriots. But when you look at these numbers every single year and it's 8% of the cap or 9% of the. the cap or 11% of the cap and it's every single season is a huge advantage.

Like the fact that it was happening like that every year and he's this unbelievable stabilizing factor who's often an MVP level player, it really allowed the Patriots to do so much in other areas of their roster. So going back to it, again, Mahomes is making 17% of the cap. Chris Jones, by the way, is making 14%. Like, so Chris Jones. Chris Jones. best players.

Sure, that's fine. But Chris Jones is making more than any Super Bowl winning quarterback made as a percentage of the cap over the last like 15 years. So that's crazy. So taking those two things into account, all right? And so I got just one more layer of that, which I thought was really funny. So, okay, the question that comes out of that is, how? Okay.

If you have a guy who's making 17, if you have two players making 31% of the salary cap, how? How are you in the Super Bowl? how are you able to build the rest of your roster out to make this possible? The Chiefs are 31st in cash spending or cap spending in the secondary. 31st this year and their secondary is okay. It's not like a huge liability. So that's how they've been able to do this, right?

So they're starting secondary for the Kansas City Chiefs this season against the cap makes $13 million. Okay, it's like 12.9. They make as a group, and this is five guys, the five starters. So McDuffie, Watson, Sneeps. The Thornhill, Justin Reed. Combined. Those five guys, they're starting nickel secondary.

Makes the same amount against the cap as Jesse Bates. Justin Reed's cap hits only four and a half million. Yes. That's... So, and some people are obviously going to be weird. Like, when we talk about the Eagles especially, there's a lot of money hidden in the banana stand as far as these cap hits go over the next couple years.

So you can't just look at the cap hits, but I just thought that was hilarious that the entire starting chief secondary is making the same as Jimmy Ward against the captain this year. And that's again. So how do they do this? That's one of the areas. They've consistently been able to do that, right? They spent on Matthew, but other than that, it's been a lot of rookies and a lot of guys that they've either gotten off the street. You're Mike Hughes's players like that, and they've cobbled this together.

We talked about that a decent amount in our final four lessons show with Barnwell, just how being able to coach up that unit and what Dave Merritt, their secondary coach has done, has been huge. for them. Another little one. The chiefs are only 16th in cap spending on the offensive line this year. And that's with a player on the franchise tag, which usually cranks up your cap spending positionally and the most expensive guard in the league. And that's because they're starting center and starting right guard who are very good players are making $3 million combined against the salary cap. Because they're not only rookies, it's a second round rookie and a six round rookie. Exactly. Sorry, second year players, I should say now. Yeah. And same with the DBs. You got seven seventh round, seventh round quarter.

Like you got that, you can, you nail your picks. You get some juice to work with. It's huge. It's huge. Yes. So that's how they've been able to do a lot of this is that they've offset it with really cheap players at specific spots. So in totality then, what does this team, who does this team resemble among other teams

that have gone to the Super Bowl over the last 10 years? They're the 2016 Falcons. Mm. Okay. So Matt Ryan that year was making about 15% of the cap in 2016. He was fully paid. Like, I am top of the market quarterback. Julio was at 11.

Yep. So that's kind of that Chris Jones, Patrick Mahomes comparison. And then you can go a step further than that. The chiefs this season are 30th and snap weighted age on defense. Okay. So they're super, super young. We know this, just anecdotally. All the younger guys in the secondary, they're really.

the young at linebacker. Think back to that team that the Falcons had. They had all of those young players on defense, Vic Beasley, Devondre Campbell, Dionne Jones, some of the corners. They were that season 25th and Snapweighted age on defense. And I believe both of them were right around the same in terms of the cap spending that they also had on defense. And then one more step.

MVP quarterbacks that led, that led, earth-shattering offenses at times, like the most efficient offenses in football and some of the most efficient offenses that we've seen over the last decade. Like if you look at a lot of the EPA numbers, just the efficiency numbers that the 22 chiefs put up, one of the teams on those lists is the 2016 Falcons,

both of whom just converted and created first downs at astronomical rates. So that, to me, is the best comparison. Like those two teams in the way that they're constructed is very similar. obviously there are some differences, right? I mean, the Falcons are a team that their offensive coordinator gets hired away the next season. Yes.

You lose that offensive consistency, that offensive infrastructure that you had built. They spend the next however many years trying to figure that out, Steve Sarkeesian and all these different things. And you remember just the shuffling that happened there. Their quarterback, even at that point, was what? he was probably 31. Yeah, 30, 31. So four years older than Mahomes is. And so you have that consideration.

The defensive guys on that side for the Falcons didn't really sustain some of that stuff that we saw from them later that year, like the Vic Beasley's of the world. Jaywin Collins was on fire that year too in the second half of the year. Yeah. He had to play. Yeah. But that was a young DB, a young corner for the Falcons too. So I don't think that the Chiefs, either in the short term or the long term, are faded to have the same ending as the 2016 Falcons did. I think that their next season is probably going to look pretty good.

And the other thing that I thought was interesting in a kind of a comparison between them, this Chief's team wasn't an all-in team. This wasn't one of those teams that had pushed all their chips in. They were taking a step back consciously. So they're like 21st in the NFL in cash spending this season. The Falcons were 28th that year when they were. they went to the Super Bowl and almost won it. They didn't have all these superstar level players on both sides of the ball. They weren't making crazy trades or pushing cap further down the line to make sure they were squeezing

this in. They kind of stumbled into this Super Bowl with this sort of offense. The 2015 Falcons, they had a good second half of the season. It wasn't like people saw the 2016 Falcons coming. No. Offensively. I remember mid-season that year, they were like four and four. And watching that offense, I was like, this team's going to the Super Bowl.

It is documented. It's on the ringer.com. I said it in the moment. I was like, this team is going to the Super Bowl. They are really fucking good. And then they did. Oh, my God. It was that offense.

And just the people don't understand too with that Shanahan offense that year was the creativity that we know now. I think everyone's stapled them. Oh, he just uses tight ends and rounds outside zone. But then washing every week to week what they were doing with the tight ends and the receivers and how they used. everybody. The backs were on the field at the same time and they were lined up at all these weird places. I remember. Teva Coleman was the most dangerous receiver for a couple weeks.

He was just taking them to the house. But that's what they were doing that year. It was one of the most fun offenses to ever watch. I would 100% agree. And I remember I wrote about it in the moment. I wrote about Shanahan kind of before that Super Bowl and just a big piece about how he was like the next guy. He was going to get a head coaching job. He was kind of the tea leaves if you were reading them. He was probably headed to San Francisco. And I, I think it was the NFC championship game. They use like 19 different formations in their first 19 plays with just different players in different spots.

So again, the kernels of what we see now. But again, just going back to this Chiefs team, while that Falcons team was kind of a flash in the pants, snuck up on you the perfect storm of all these different factors, the factors associated with this Kansas City team are sustainable. Patrick Holmes is going to be there for a really long time. Andy Reid's going to be there for a really long time, even if some of the ways that they're spending money on Chris Jones and Frank Clark and those may have to be tweaked over the next couple years in order to save in some areas.

For the most part, the foundation of this team is going to sustain. And that is what's similar to a lot of those Patriots teams that we saw. So I think it's a combination of the 2016 Falcons and the Patriots. That was good. I like that, though. That's a very good comparison, especially. And also just, okay, everyone thought this chief's office, no one would thought that would be. bad without Tyreek Hill, but I don't think anyone, even for me, I was an optimist.

And yeah, oh, yeah, I think they're going to be the number one offense. I was kind of going out of limb with that. Yeah. But it's, but that no one was really expecting that. And that's what was kind of cool watching this for starting week one. I mean, same with that Falcons team early in the season. They started just putting up points on everybody. And that's what, oh, start taking notice of the what the Falcons are doing right now. Matt Ryan, wow, look at the stats he's putting up. Julio is catching 300 yards in a game. Like that was, That was the type of kind of performances they were having. So, no, that's a really good comparison.

I've won more historical one, but this was more of another narrative one. I did the 1988, San Francisco 49ers. And that was just more, I just picked the 49ers team. And I said, offensive guru with an all-time quarterback, throwing to an all-time player. And I said, Jerry Rice or Kelsey, and really not much else. Roger Craig was a little too old for my run-inback comparison. So that I was, I wanted a Pacheco. I was trying to find my Pacheco on one of these teams.

I tried. But that was the other one I had. Those 49ers teams, I, for me, because I was born in 89, is that I didn't know how damn good those defenses were. I knew they were good,

but I didn't know they were like the top three in every metric that every year. Those teams were just incredible, those 49ers, 80s and 90s teams. So that one kind of fell out of way sad. That was more of a narrative one. So I would say maybe just, you know,

the eyes come from the 49ers 80s teams with this chiefs team. Like that's, you know, that's where that's the 5% genealogy with their, with this comparison. Yeah. And obviously, again, those teams, not the cap,

what you could build back then. Oh, my God. It's a little bit different than what you can do now. Oh, my God. It's all start. All these names I'm reading. I'm like, oh, my God. Of course you guys were just blowing people out of the water.

And a couple of them were during strike years. So it's like, oh, yeah, there's some ugly, ugly games going on in the 80s. God, I'm looking back at the box score of when you guys with the Raiders played the Falcons that year. and I remember you Matt Ryan threw for 400 yards and 34 attempts

But the He was about a dozen Nakeds Where he just threw the late leak on the naked Not the week coming across the formation But he did hit one of those too But where he Because it was like Jacob Tammy show Yes

So it was just it was Jacob Tammie was really good that year He was great I love Jacob Tammy So perfect like zone tight end But he So the Nakeds in the Shanahan offices We get into a little scheme right now

is this is the innovation of what their nakeds were. Usually you just have a slam flat, which is like the underneath route you see on bootlegs and naked. They would do a guy to the flat, and then they would have another slam flat behind it. That was the innovation of the Shanahan Nakeds and that everyone copies and does now. But he would just,

our defense, our rage defense wasn't great that year. And so he would just, Matt Ryan would look at the flat and find the late leak behind it. That guy would go for like 12 yards of pop. It's like this is so annoying. This is the easy. easiest offense I've ever seen just blitzing us for a first down to pop. But that game was a

barn burner. Yeah, it was a really fun game. It also happened during baseball season or like right around baseball season. So the infield was still a Oakland County Coliseum. I can't believe that was a thing. Even like seven years later, it feels like such a different time that we're playing football games on baseball diamonds. Oh my God. And that stuff was hard. God, God bless anyone that played on baseball fields. Like we did it as a use. But now in the NFL, those guys are just everybody's elbows would just be cut up. It was just like they just went bob sledding on asphalt. But that's got a great memory, by the way, of remembering that was on the baseball field.

We had a short yardish play. We had a change to play that were burned in my brain, man. Yeah, that was such a great game. The game that's burned, I have talked about on the show, was they played the Broncos, that Falcons team and what they were doing to that Broncos defense and all the, they were going 13, three tight ends and going empty out of it. And they get Tevin Coleman isolated. It was like, what, what is this?

offense because we had to use heavy personnel going against the Broncos. This is scouting. This is this our opponent scouting you do. So we're like, okay, find all the heavy personnel looks. Well, we can't use this. We're not going 13 empty. Like we, so I guess we could use a couple of these snaps, but we can't really translate any of this for our offense right now.

But an awesome offense. I'm glad you mentioned it. I also brought up the Eagles teams under Reed just making so many conference championship games. That was just another comparison. But there wasn't really one that really stuck out to me that kind of like really locked in. I think the other big takeaway from this chief's team, again, kind of comparing it to the Patriots teams is just that with this foundation of the Reed Mahomes partnership, as long as you have that as like the center,

I'm now mixing my metaphors, but as long as you have that as like the center of your galaxy and everything else and kind of orbit around it, you're always going to be there. So looking at where they're at next year, because again, they took a step back. Like this,

they retooled the offense. There's a deep breath. They became less explosive. and more efficient. They were running the ball better. And again, that's a good comparison to those Patriots teams is that, okay, if we have this thing at the center of it all, if we have this quarterback and a play caller with this quarterback, which the Pats did forever with McDaniels, okay, everything else

can kind of shape shift around it. And it did. You know, you had teams that threw the ball a little bit more. You had teams that ran the ball a little bit more. And they were able to kind of sustain that success. Offensive line coaching continuity is something that both the chiefs and the those Patriots teams had for a very, very long time, which was really, really important in getting the most out of that unit.

So you look at next year and some of these guys get more expensive, right? Like I think Tunis cap that this season is $8 million. It goes up to $22 next year. And then Frank Clark is at 29. He's not going to be on the team next year. No. But so they have, even with these guys, Mahomes making 46, Chris Jones making 28 against the cap next season, Tunney making 22.

they're going to have like $30 million in cap space if they move on from Frank Clark. So they can, and there are guys hitting free agency, right? Orlando Brown's a free agent. One, Thornehill was a free agent, but it goes back to this idea that if you have the foundation,

then everything else can just kind of orbit around it. They have a star in offense, a star in defense what's built around them. And I think that's, but that's an underrated thing with those Patriots teams. You already talked about the Brady contract and that, that is notable. But just having Josh McDaniel,

be the coordinator and not worrying about him really leaving unless he kind of fakes out the Colts in 2018. But not for years and years. Once he came back from the Broncos and he had that little stint with the Rams as well. But once he came back, it was just, he's not going anywhere. So they got to build that with the quarterback, the head coach, the offense coordinator, year after year. And great call with the offensive line coach.

Andy Heck with the Chiefs is one of the best. And he's been there since Reed got there in Kansas City. And on top of it, Dante Scarnacia. one of Belichick's top lieutenants. Like he, Belichick is such a micromanager and has his thumb on everything. I mean that's a compliment. And with Dronatea, he's like, yeah, Scars got it. That's saying something.

That's how good Scarnacia was that was like he really had control. Belichick, of course, had his input, but he really has to control what players he wanted and what type of scheme they wanted to run and they made it all work. But the shifting of the offense is what you just mentioned it. That's what really stood out to me. That's what's been so cool at these Patriots teams, being more than, run heavy defensive, pounding you in the mouth,

early 2000s teams, to the crazy passing the ball, late 2000s teams, or 2011. I've really looked at that 2011 Patriots team trying to find a comparison. It didn't really work that well.

To what this kind of, I mean, whatever ridiculous team that was. Ridiculous. Oh, go back, people look at the stats for that team. I think even the efficiency numbers,

I think they're even better than those seven teams in some aspects. But then find this 14 team, it kind of had that perfect where the offense felt more balanced, even if it was Brady being very, very good, throwing to a very good tight end. And the defense didn't feel they were good,

but they didn't feel as dominant as some of those older Patriots teams did. So kind of narrative-wise, the transitioning of what they were doing, the tweaks they showed. Brady going to being like a running back target monster later in his career. That changed too.

You watch how Mahomes plays. I was talking to Charles McDonald about this. He was watching the 2019 Super Bowl, or 2019 Super Bowl between the 40 Irish and the Chiefs. And he goes, Mahomes is even better at playing quarterback now than he was then. And it's like, yeah, he's got better. Yeah, but that's the same thing what happened with Brady.

Like he obviously just got better and better to be in one of, if not the best of all time. So it's, that's, it's cool to watch these guys, especially when the infrastructure is so good that they can just continue to evolve their careers. And that's what kind of this, that these teams kind of feel like they're in that same arc of the changes, even if that happened later in Brady's career. even going like one step further like the actual structure of the passing game i because you remember you with those 2014 team like the 2014 team and when i got a little bit older into brady's career after the 2011 like rocket ship that existed obviously the 2007 team they really just did so much work being surgical in the inner like short areas of the field yep so tom brady in 2014 only 30.9% of his passes traveled more than 10 yards down the field okay my homes this year was

30.4. Ah, love it. So that's perfect. That's very fun. The last thing I wanted to mention is just the, what Mahomes' contract looks like over the next, however many years. So doing this with how much, what percentage of the Kappa guy is making can be dangerous

because we see teams restructure these deals all the time. Okay. So one of the things the chiefs chose not to do this year is that they did not restructure Mahomes' contract. So the way the Mahomes' deal works, as far as I understand it is, he has fairly low-based salaries for like the first seven years of the 10-year contract. Yep. There are monster roster bonuses pretty much every single year that become guaranteed rolling like two years in advance. This one, this next roster bonus is just under $35 million for anyone else. So it's $35 million, okay?

Yeah. So I believe they pick it up. on like the third day of the league gear every single year. I think this year is on St. Patrick's Day. Okay? So they can choose pretty much every year the Chiefs can to convert that roster bonus into a signing bonus if they want to. So every single season, there is going to be a lever for the Chiefs to pull to create

$25 more million in space and just push out the capits further. They decided not to do that this season. So this is just one of those years where they didn't. last year in 2021, they did do it. So his cap hit was artificially lower than it's going to be in a season like this. So that's just something to think about when you are looking at the ways the chiefs can save money, the ways the chiefs can create money. Next year, it's probably not going to be necessary again if they don't want to because

even if they move on from MVS and decide to reshape their entire wide receiving core, they would have like $40 million in cap space. They can extend Chris Jones and push that number down if they want to. So the moral of the story here is this team's in really good shape. They've done an incredible job kind of giving themselves flexibility. And when you have the best player and when you can put pretty much anything around him now, not anything, the offensive line is very good. And Travis Kelsey is an all pro. But when you can be a shape-shifting sort of offense in the ways that you spend your money and resources, it really gives you tons of flexibility as you continue to move forward.

you can't predict who hits and who doesn't hit of who you drafted, what's free agent signings, turn out to be bombs. You can't predict any of that. So giving yourself ways to pivot and go, oh, shoot. Oh, God, all these young guys, actually, we have to pay them now. All right, going to the bank of Patrick Mahomes. That's what it is. Anytime they need to take a really alone that this chief team can do it.

But that, like you said, they're in great position because, yes, having the best player really helps. But also now they can just pivot to whatever they want. And I think that's, I'm glad you talked about that because that really does matter. They're not just locked down every year because they have to pay my homes. And my homes deal is only going to get friendlier as time goes on. So it's, yeah, I think that's a great, great call because this chief's team is really cool, kind of how they've reconfigured themselves from even 12 months ago. The last thing I want to say about this is that the tone of this conversation and this

flexibility that they're going to have and the fact that they're in really good shape. It is tempting to just say, well, if they, lose this one, they'll be back. You can't do it. No. And we'll have the same conversation about the Eagles. And I think that Mahomes and Reed is going to be the closest thing we have to Brady and Belichick and the consistency that they're going to be in this game. They hosted five straight AFC championship games, right? The Chiefs are going to be

a part of this conversation every single year in a way that I think really only those Patriots teams have been. But the AFC is really good. It's going to be really good. I think even if their season ended in a disappointing way, the bills are going to be good with Josh Allen. They have a very good place from which to build. The Bengals easily could have beaten the Chiefs last week. We could be talking about the Bengals right now again,

and Joe Burrow is going to get paid, but they still got a couple more cheap years of Joe Burrow. Those Bengals teams are going to be good. It does seem like they're going to bring back both their coordinators again next year, based on how the head coaching searches are going. So there are going to be some teams over there. We'll see what happens with Justin Herbert and the Chargers. And let's see what Kell and Moore can do over there.

So it's tempting to say, ah, they'll just be back all the time. He's 27 years old. But it doesn't always work like that, even if I have more faith in this team, kind of breaking the mold there, than I do in almost any other team that we've come across here in the last 10 or so years. It's really, really, really hard, to win games in the NFL, much less go to the AFC championship game five times in a row. But yes, if you were, it's like if you're a betting man, yes, I would bet on them going back. But it's, you never know. You just never know how this guy, how bottom falls out.

They revamped this offensive line within a couple of years. That just doesn't happen. You know, if someone gets hurt or the guys retire, they can't fill those holes. You never know what holes open up and what holes are filled, what becomes a position of strength, a weakness. You just can't predict any of that. No, and again, that 20, that team that lost to the bucks, the team, that offensive line that's started in that game wasn't the offensive line they wanted to start in that game. They were a mess.

Injuries creep in. This team is really healthy. This version of the Chiefs is extremely healthy. Health luck is another factor that is going to ultimately play into this stuff. Orlando Brown isn't a great left tackle, but he is a reliable left tackle. He moves on and at that position, that's the most important bar you have to clear. He gets a monster deal in free agency next year. You don't land on the.

right guy next season. You can't find one in the draft. There isn't one available in free agency. You got to cobble it together for a single year. Maybe your tackle spots aren't quite as solid as they were this season. Every single year, the ground shifts to the point that it's really hard to feel good about the footing that you're on, even when you have Patrick Mahomes. So don't take these Super Bowl trips for granted, I guess is the takeaway here. Yes, that's a good way to put it. It was pretty cool. I tweeted it, but the Patriots history over the years with Belichick and just like, same. It, we take it, I've already taken it for granted. You look at it and just, just 10 wins, 10 wins, 11, 12, 12 wins, 12, 12 wins, 12, 12 wins, 14, 14, 12. It's just, that's again, it's like, this is, these guys are those teams and makeups are such outliers that we almost get spoiled with it expecting it every year, but we shouldn't. That's why we actually should commend that they're able to do this stuff because it's really hard. All right, let's get to the Eagles. Yeah. Where did, where did you start with the Eagles Super Bowl genealogy here?

I know we have one that I know we want to talk about. So I'm going to go with my other one here. Okay. I'm pretty excited about this is more of my historical one, some narrative here. I'm going with the 1992 Dallas Cowboys. Jesus Christ. Right? How about that?

How about that? And I'm pretty happy. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. I'm pretty happy. Pretty happy with this one. This is more team makeup and narrative. But team built wheeling and dealing evolving draft picks and some and some holdover vets.

And this is just the team makeup of the. this team, team make-up of this team. Way to go, Nate. But veteran offensive line from an old regime. So you had Mark Tweneh and Nate Newton and it was supplemented with younger talent. So they're the Lane Johnson and Jason Kelsey in this example. A third year QB coming into his own that is yes, has improved tremendously, maybe carried a little bit by a strong supporting cast. Can't wait until we get a little jab at Troy Aikman. A young, talented, homegrown skill players throughout Michael Irvin, you know, Devante Smith. I'll say I'm not going to compare Miles Sanders to Emmett Smith, but that, but, but it's so young,

talented running backs. But I love this one is a veteran DB group that was signed and traded for. Interesting. That Cowboys' 1992 team, the 992 Cowboys, they had Isaac Holt, who they got from the Vikings trade, the Herschel Walker stuff, and they kind of did some other configuring that, those trades and everything, all the conditions that Jimmy, Johnson got those trades. It's like so confusing to like read back on it.

But like it's got it's, it's interesting. Thomas Everett, they got from a Steelers trade. James Washington, the guys, a free agent signing. Compare that to the Eagles. They got C.J. Gardner Johnson, trade, Darius Slay, trade. And then Marcus Epps and James Bradbury. So I also like if you want to get negative on it, you can say like Nick Siriani, if you want to go to a later's cowboy team and say he's Barry Switzer.

Like, because he's just had such a loaded team. I'm never going to do that comparison for them. But I just think that there was just. just this team makeup. It's a reconfigured team from what they were, especially when the regime took over. They kind of like everybody peaked at the right time. They're young guys that they accumulated through all these picks and the trades that they made all worked out where it was just these guys are positive starters for them. So it's kind of just this interesting mix of team building. And that's the one I'm comparing it to. If we're going to compare Jimmy Johnson, there's a reason

that's the Jimmy Johnson trade value chart. And obviously the Hershal Walker trade was his, you know, magnum opus but what howie's doing right now and i always say the red paper clip but always just wheel and deal on finding every stone they turn you know trying to find new ways to build this team so i think that also just that kind of team building aspect is uh what i'm comparison as well so the nineteen ninety two cowboys i'm sure eagles fans love that love being compared to the dallas cowboys i uh i was looking at some of the deals that the eagles have made over the last like four or five years and how they've kind of created flexibility for themselves and there's some really interesting ones.

So in 2018, obviously they have the 32nd pick the year after they win the Super Bowl. So they pick 32nd. Do you remember who was taking 32nd in the 2018 draft? I actually don't. Lamar Jackson. Oh, that's right. Yeah, they traded that.

So they traded that pick to Lamar Jackson for Lamar Jackson. In the moment, obviously, the Eagles don't need a quarterback. Carson once was an MVP candidate until he got hurt. The picks that they got in that trade, either directly or ultimately after a couple more moves became Miles Sanders and Dallas Goddard. So just like one little like two for one thing. It's like obviously it's Lamar Jackson. Like it's an MVP that got taken with that pick.

But process, it's a very smart move and they got multiple starting pieces from it. And then the other one that is just fucking hilarious is that it's there are so many of these Eagles deals and it's how he does. He takes a hundred swings, right? There's so many trades you're never even going to think about. So I believe that the way that this worked is, they traded JJ Arsega White Side to the Seahawks for Hugo Amadi. It was a nickel corner. Yeah.

And then the Eagles traded Hugo Amadi to the Titans. And there was a pick swap involved in that trade. And I think it was a 2024 sixth round pick was involved in that Hugo Amadi trade. In the deal for CJ Gardner Johnson, the Saints get the way. worse one of the Eagles two 2024 sixth round picks, one of which was acquired for Hugo Amati, who was acquired for J. J. J. J.R. Sago Whiteside? Okay. Keeping track of it is insane.

But this is what they do. This is what we were talking about the saints. We were talking about the saints. And you're like, and they don't have their 2024 second round pick because they gave it to the Eagles as well. It's like, oh my God, they got that one too. Like that's, you look at their. tank a thought you just see all the picks they had and it's just oh they got when they get that guy when

they get that pick like it's just we own a deal and you never know when it's gonna when you're gonna have to cash it my buddy host has been one of my best friends for like 20 years and you've met him we had dinner at the super rule last year and he's the commissioner of my fantasy football league it's a very it's an intense home league like there are a ton of rules and it's a keeper league and there's like a million different things going on and we have a rookie draft and we have all these different factors and there's like keeper qualifications and all this shit. So he just makes the thousand trades a year and I often make many of them as well. But he'll put pick swaps on picks four years from now in the rookie draft. And then he'll have multiples where he gets to pick the better

of the picks. Everyone hates him. And I assume that's how everyone feels about Howie Roseman. That is a general manager of an NFL team. He's calling us like, God, this fucking guy. It's over and over again. Why are you calling me, Howie? If he ever called me, that's all out of, why are you calling me, Howie? What idea are you,

are you hatching right now? Well, that's looking even at, like, for the Isaac Holt one, this was kind of fun because he was part of the Herschel Walker trade, and then there was all these conditions, like at playing time and all that. And if this guy, if this pick played, like, then they don't get that pick, but Jimmy Johnson had second thoughts

with Isaac Cole because he like didn't play him right away because he was like I want the draft fix and so instead he was like no actually I do want the picks so he like traded three future draft choices a third rounder a 10th rounder and a third rounder and to the Vikings who are right to retain the original full package of draft choices plus all these players that the Vikings gave them so same kind of thing just like this has a condition on it this doesn't this has a playing time thing on it it all works out look at this now we're winning Super Bowls like that kind of a newer version of what Jimmy Johnson was doing in the 90s. Obviously, Johnson had just unbelievable edge understanding how important the draft was,

just understanding like, oh, I can get all this talent. Like if as long as I just do it right, like and just get a bunch of swings at the bat, kind of works out for them. What I appreciate about the Eagles, and again, I was working on something about this. I was recently doing the research is that I like the fact that they look at draft picks as anything. Yeah. So if I have a fourth round pick, that fourth round pick isn't an off ball linebacker from Boise State. That fourth round pick is a way to move up four spots in the draft.

It's a way to – it's ten different things. When they had three first round picks in last year's draft, I think a lot of people are like, okay, they have three first round picks. These are the three players they can get with those picks. And those were just mock drafts. And I think that people understood they probably weren't going to make all three of those. but not only did they not make all three of those, they picked one player in the first round of last year's draft. They only picked Jordan Davis.

The other two picks, one became a future first rounder this year that's in the top 10, and one became AJ Brown. So just viewing your assets that way is something that I've appreciated about the way that they've tried to build this thing because it understands how many different ways that you can improve your team, and they're very, very good at that. A resource is a resource.

It's not just what you are. thinking of it, like it can turn into anything. It's your mystery box. But I mean that, I mean that a good way. In a good way. They move up the draft a lot more than people probably think. They move up and down a lot. But the ups are always two spots, three spots.

It's why it's hard to concisely write about their moves. Because when you're talking about the Devante Smith pick, you can't just say, oh, they traded down to 12 and that's where they took Devante Smith. It's like, no, they actually traded down to 12 and then they trade it back. up to 10 to get Devante Smith. So they had to trade away this fourth round pick. It's very rarely clean in the way that you're trying to describe the transactions of the Philadelphia Eagles.

That also shows, though, that they're ranking guys that they like better. Like, they wouldn't move up just 12 to 10 if they didn't love Devante Smith or at least that tier or understand how the tiers or receivers were going in that draft. So that's also just not just asset allocation and resource management and all that, but also just like how they rank guys. I mean, I think that all of the moves they made for Devante was just brilliant. Obviously, he's worked out. But just like everything that led to that.

So that just shows that they put it all together just in the scouting aspects as well. And they're a fantastic pro scouting department. Like just the Eagles, just year after year. They just keep turning it that way. But no, no, that's a great point that they move up. It's not just always trading back. Even Belichick moved up as well. Like that it's not always he traded back.

Yes, he accumulated a lot of picks. But he was also moving up as well, especially in other rounds. All right. So which team are we really going to compare the 2022 Eagles to? I think we have to go with the 2018 Rams. It was the first one that came to mind. Yes. When we were having this discussion on Tuesday or Monday when we were chatting about the idea,

the first team that came to mind was the 2018 Rams for me. And it was mostly based on vibes. It was the way the team was constructed and the feeling around the team and you start kind of pouring over the names in your head. It's like, oh, I didn't even remember specifically what some of the moves the 2018 Rams made were. But I was like, oh, they dealt for some veterans and they did a bunch of crazy shit

the same way that the Eagles do. And they had a quarterback on a cheap rookie contract. But then you dig into it. It's actually more uncanny than just that initial first glance. And what's been funny here is that the 2017 Eagles were in the Super Bowl, but I still think this year's Eagles resemble the 2018 Rams more than the last Eagles team

that went to the Super Bowl with a rookie quarterback contract. Yes. There's so many narratives too. I mean, like you said, I forgot some of the traits and some of the how they built this team. Well, even just a narrative standpoint, young head coach in his second season. Yeah, that's a good one too. Yeah, you got a young QB in his third season after you just had a kind of like a season where he looked a lot better with this new coaching staff in his second year.

And oh, do we have something with him? But I don't know. Do you want me to just dive in? One of the comparisons that I totally forgot. I totally forgot this. They traded the first rounder for Brandon Cooks. I totally forgot that this, that Ramstein did that.

Okay, there's the AJ Brown comparison right there. Not saying. I can't, I forgot about that. I couldn't believe I, like, oh yeah,

they did. I remember Brandon Cook's out there, but I forgot they traded it first for him. Obviously, the Whitworth and Robert Woods, the year before, but also just the second year emerging receiver that they drafted, their homegrown guy, the Devante Smith and Cooper Cup comparison. Like that, that's another comparison for this teams. They traded for Marcus. And that actually works even more because the Rams didn't

have a first round pick in 2017. So Cooper Cup was one of their first picks. Yeah. So it's not like, comparing a first rounder and a third rounder seems silly, but like it was one of their premium picks in that draft because of the Jared Gough trade. Oh, and he was their gem too. Like the, they still haven't shut up about that. Like about, oh, they look at the GPS tracking of him running. It's like, yeah, I also watched him at Oregon go for like 250.

Like, I think that game is, that's what stood out to me, not his 20 mile an hour GPS tracking. But sorry, but even they have a same player on both of these teams. And Sue, I, Sue had his one year stint with the Rams that year.

And it was, yeah, I totally forgot about that. So it's funny. It wasn't that long ago, but there's so many just narrative comparisons with these teams. And I know you got a bunch.

I don't want to take them all. But these teams have so much genealogy they share. It's actually even more than our first initial thought once you dive into this. So the Sue comparison one step further. So that season, Indama Kinsu made 7.99% of the salary cap for the Rams. It was the biggest contract on their books that year. This year, Javad Hargrave makes 7.93% of the salary cap for the Eagles. It's the biggest contract on their books.

books this season. So there's that comparison. Look at the ways you mentioned it, the ways the Eagles built this secondary. That's what the Rams did. They traded for Akeep Tilibe in the middle of the season. So there aren't one-to-one comparisons here just because some of the financial elements of it. So Akeeps leave is on an $11 million cap at that season.

The Eagles went and signed James Bradbury one year 10 million. The James Bradbury contract, by the way, is fascinating. Okay. So it's not as interesting as some of the other eagles contracts, which we can dig into if we want to. But he has $2.2 million against the cap this year. Okay. Then the rest of it voids.

But I believe the void structure is such that it doesn't hit the cap all at once next year. It voids it over multiple seasons somehow. I like this. Love it. You need an MBA to figure out the way they structure these deals. And this is not. it's not just we're kicking the can down the road and saints-wise. Like the Saints do a lot of really interesting stuff that helps make their team better.

But the Eagles, the way they use like option bonuses, for example, right? So you can pro-rate a signing bonus over five years of the deal. So, and that happens immediately, right? And then you can prorate a roster bonus over five years as well if you turn it into a signing bonus. But an option bonus, you can also prorate over five years of the deal, but you can put an option bonus in your three. So it can pro rate on top of the signing bonus that you already have. And they have so many option bonuses in their structures.

And pretty much every single major contract on the Eagles, name a guy. Okay. Lane Johnson, Jason, Jason Kelsey, all the defensive players, they all have voyagers, all of them. So this question of how do the Eagles afford all these guys, even, even, you know, even with Jalen Hertz's contract in mind, it's because all of the void years on all of these deals. They're just betting that they're going to be able to outrun this. And they have smart little mechanisms built in about when some of the guarantees happen.

Phil safes. Yeah. They just are very, there's an ingenuity with the way that they handle their salary cap that talking to people who know about this shit, it's different than what other teams do. Like they're kind of a one-of-one team in how they do this. I'm glad that last sentence right there.

I'm glad you mentioned that. I always think that's really interesting is seeing how teams structured deals because you can see their mindset with stuff. It's also see what their, you know, their cap guy and how good he is or how creative he is and how like, but you can see like vibes with it. I remember for years like the bucks front loaded a lot of their deals.

I think it was like you, but everyone's contracts are different. The bucks never push money into future years. Never. This is what they've done over the last two to three seasons is 100% out of character for them. It's why they had such a clean cap heading into that Super Bowl year and the preceding and the next year. It had a really loaded roster.

Like that's what we forget that 20, that's way 20 bucks team was pretty loaded. But that's, I remember the Falcons cap guy was complained about it. He's like, they, they just do that. They just do it for pub.

Like he was talking about the guaranteed deals or something like that. He's like, they just front loaded. It's not exactly how it works. But that stood out to me. I was like, oh, you guys actually all look,

they even look at deals differently. But the Eagles and the voidy deals. years one. That's such a great comparison too because it's also it's a bunch of different drops in the bucket at different years. So like as opposed to like a one one move one guy really knee capping us and doing this. It's like, okay, we can withstand a dozen of these or seven of these. I'm just making up numbers. But seven of these kind of little deals because caps going up a little bit, it won't be as devastating in a couple of years as well, like as much as how much it's hitting us and hurting us. The percentage goes down. So finding all these little ways.

these little, I wouldn't say loopholes, but ways to be creative with the contracts, not and not Hollywood creativity, not Hollywood accounting where they don't pay you, but it's actually like actually just finding ways to work around what the CBA is and what the salary cap is. I mean, you should get benefits from being creative like this without like taking money away from the players, I mean, but just like working away around the deals. I feel like NFL should, and I think they do do it, is reward teams for putting in the work. either sour cap or scouting-wise. Compensation picks as well.

They should reward teams for trying to be creative, and that's why the Eagles benefit from it because they are getting rewarded for it. This is a very silly thing, okay, but it is very real. It helps when you want to win. Right. And I know that sounds crazy, but it's really important to remember every year

that not every team is trying to win the Super Bowl. and one of the defining aspects of the Eagles over the last since how it was been took over essentially they're always trying to win like they are all every single year it's not retooling it's retooling not rebuilding they're going to try to find everything that they can do to build the best team possible and the Rams that's a really good comparison point the Rams have been more extreme about how they've leveraged some of their resources like the Eagles haven't had to do that over the

last couple years, they have the 10th overall pick in this year's draft. But I think it's similar in how many, again, how many rocks they've tried to turn over as part of this process. So getting back to the actual comparisons, the Rams traded for Marcus Peters heading into that year's draft. So think about the veterans in the secondary, the C.J. Gardner Johnson trade, the James Bradbury signing. Darius Slay was a couple years earlier, but they acquired players specifically at that position group in a very similar way. spending-wise, the other point of comparison, the Rams were fifth in defensive line spending that year. Weirdly, Aaron Donald was not the big reason for that.

Like, Michael Brockers made a lot of money. Brokers made a tonne. He did a lot of money. Aaron Donald was still on his rookie contract at that point. I think that was 14, 15, 17, 17, 18th, fifth year option. Fifth year option. And he was the 14th pick in the draft. So that wasn't like a crazy amount of money.

Top five deal. Yeah. So that was the one area where the spending was kind of similar. And then the, Eagles are fourth in defensive line spending against the cap this year. That is skewed because Sasan Radick is not a defensive lineman. So it's even more than that. That's where they've pumped in a lot of their resources on this team.

Their 10th in offensive line spending, part of that is because some of the deals are deflated because they're going to hit up next year, Lane Johnson, my lot of all of that stuff. But beyond the roster contours, the way that the team succeed is pretty similar. The last team that was the most efficient running team in the league that went to the Super Bowl, I believe was the 2018 Rams. They led the NFL in EPA per rush, which again, the Eagles did. The Rams were third and total rushing yards that year. The Eagles are like fifth. So it was more about when we run will crush you.

But they paired that running game with an extremely explosive passing game. Yes. The Rams were third in 20 plus yard completions in 2018. The Eagles are second. and 20 plus yard completions this season, the only team ahead of them is the Chiefs. The Rams only had seven fewer completions of 20 plus yards in 2018 than the 50 touchdown Mahomes team.

They were really explosive throwing the football that year. It was awesome. I mean, running like the same three play action plays over and over. No, I'm glad you brought up the run game stat. That is fantastic because this, the Eagles team that I brought up the stat before is the fifth highest rushing success rate since 2008. and two, the Rams team is sixth. That's awesome.

That's great. Yes. The Eagles is 48.3% of rush success. This 2018 Rams, 48.2. So it's like boom, boom, right then and there. But no, the explosive play element, that's so, that's so, so true. That, God, I want to sit down and just, like, maybe restudy that 2018 Rams team because that, that, that offense and just the play action, the use of tempo.

That's another thing that they did. They found, like, their little hack in using, their, would just use tempo with 11 personnel, keeping the same personnel out there. The Eagles with the QB sneak stuff, but they also using tempo as well with the RPO's and stuff. Like that, yeah, they just had that little edge. They leaned into it. Gough is a great play action quarterback.

Okay, let's lean into that. Like, he can throw the shit out of intermediate balls. Okay, let's lean into that and look what the offense was. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of DNA that these teams share, even if it doesn't look like at first glance. Digging into the quarterback side of this. Jared Gough made 4% of the cap that year, but still on a rookie deal, right?

So at a certain point, like, what's $5 million? Like, you're out of quarterback on a cheap rookie contract. Jalen Hertz's is hilariously low. But you still have the advantage of that rookie deal. And both teams wielded that advantage in a very good way. Yeah. I think it's important, though, to remember what Jared Gough was in 2018 and how we talked about Jared Gough in 2018.

Jared Gough was somebody that the Rams had to ship aside to go at Matthew Stafford to eventually win their Super Bowl. But Jared Gough was really good in 2018. He was, if you look at some of the, obviously the efficiency numbers are not just driven by the quarterback. That's a health of the offense stat. Like, we know that about EPA per dropback. Yeah.

But golf was like sixth. Jay one Hertz was like eighth this year. They were both similar in terms of league average. But even if you go to like big time throws or other elements of just playing quarterback, Jared Gough was like eighth. Like he was up there as like an eight to ten quarterback and a lot of different metrics for how he was playing back then. So I know that Jalen Hertz's borderline MVP candidate

probably could have won it in another year where he wasn't hurt. Mahomes didn't have this year. But Jared Gough wasn't just seen as like along for the ride on the 2018 Rams. They paid him after this. Whether that was warranted or not is a question. But he was a quarterback worth giving that contract to in the moment. that right there that he was worth it at the time and I know it was because it set the market right

it was it was the highest deal when he signed it that was more like that that was the conversation it wasn't whether you should pay him it was like wow you're going to just set the market with him that was like but I'm trying to frame it that that was the discussion it wasn't oh wow yeah of course you paid Jared golf what he just did this past year rewatching that team especially in the moment remember the chiefs game the I mean what we all do the that chiefs game that year he was toe to toe with Mahomes. Like they were just going back and forth, passing the ball and like,

just ripping some real, real throws. You always bring up the Vikings game, right? I was there. That was the one. And he had a couple of throws in that game. I mean,

he had one to just some ridiculous throws in that game. Yes. Yes. The one, he had one to Cucks in the back corner of the end zone that were like 40-yard ripped missile shots. He was the number one pick for a reason. And I know that it's revisionist history and everything.

And how quarterback plays kind of, changed since he's got picked or what we emphasize now. But it's like there was a reason. He could he could still rip some balls in there. And especially when on a team that was as loaded as that. And with a kind of offensive edge that they had that year, he made the most of it. Like so I know that it's really funny how just the the narratives of players change over time.

Of course, it's a little revisionist history on all of it. I have other comparisons to by the way. But let's so what I want to do that with let's talk about Hertz and that. Yeah. Yeah. That lens then. Okay.

So Joan Hertz. this season in the way that he's played, of course the Eagles should pay Jaylen Hertz. What Jaylen Hertz has been to their success and how central he is to, all right, we talk about this with the Eagles all the time. This eagle seems specifically.

What is the problem that you're presenting to me? How can I solve it with my offense? Yep. They can, whatever the answer is, whatever the question is, they can find it. Jalen Hertz is a huge part of that because of what he can do for you in the run game and as a passer.

So you pay Jaylen Hertz. After you pay Jalen Hertz, what happens? Do you sustain this version of offensive success? Is it 72% of that? Is that enough when some of the other elements of who you are on offense and defense have to diminish a little bit? That's not a knock on Jalen Hertz, but that becomes the conversation. And where the Rams ultimately landed after they lost that Super Bowl is, with this quarterback making this amount of money and this guy that we have,

we need more from the position if we're going to get over the hub. I don't think the Eagles are headed that direction or faded for that same sort of ending, but I think it's an important thing to remember about those Rams teams and the wall that they eventually ran into. Right. And the tightness of the offense

when it wasn't, you know, especially when they lost the schematic edge too, when defense, the Suez Banjo and Belichick went, all right, you're not doing this anymore. That matters because that's where the quarterback has to lift up when everybody else is dropping. And I don't think a team can do that to the Eagles. I don't think that they can put the Eagles in a box.

Like they could put that Rams team in a box. And I think that's a really important difference. It is. I think with that Rams team too, Whitworth was fantastic and Saffold and all that. But I mean, this Eagles O line is just so freaking dominant. And so they can run.

That Rams team is running two run plays more or less. Exaggering, but not really. It's a great, great point. Eagles are running everything under the sun. and going like, okay, this is what you guys are going to present. Okay, we'll do this.

So having the answers, that helps so much. But no, that's an important, that's what you have to figure out with the Hertz thing, too, is that he has always done is improve. At college and now is a pro. And he's improved, improve, improve, improved. Improved and improved. Yes, the team around him this year is fantastic. And that does help him.

I may kind of cracked a little joke about him in Aikman just a minute ago. But it's like, are you betting that improvement when we have a 20% drop off in surroundings? can he overcome and make up 10% of that? It doesn't have to always be all 20%. You're not going to have a team like this Eagles team every year, but sustainable double-digit win success. Can we get to that every year if we pay this guy? I'm just asking the question.

It's rhetorical, but it's like that is what I think that's what they're going to try to figure it out, especially over the next year. I don't know if they're going to do this off season. I mean, are they rumored to? Because I think it's like, what's see if he can just sustain this and this team can sustain this. It's interesting. The Eagles are on top of going,

having this amazing year are going to be a super interesting off season with all the picks resources and all the players that they have kind of coming up I think it's going to be a really interesting off season for them what the Eagles can do is and they do this on purpose with some of the void stuff I believe that if they designate some of these guys with voided contracts as post June 1st cuts they can spread out some of the cap hits so you look at this Eagles team next year and there are a couple guys Darius Slay being the biggest example Darius Slay goes to a $26 million cap hit next year late Lane Johnson's a 24 This season, both of those guys are less than half of those numbers.

But they can get Javon Hargraves down to 4.8. He's hitting free agency if they designated a post-June 1st cut. Same with James Bradbury. They can save some money there if they want to. I think I was wrong about the Bradbury thing. I think all of the Voidiers do hit the cap this single season, but because with the June 1st thing, they can do a little bit of tweaking to it.

So that I want to amend what I said before. I'm not a capologist. Howie Rosem is much, much smarter than me. But some of the other numbers, they're still fairly low. You know, like AJ Browns only make an $8 million next year. So with a couple pretty normal tweaks that almost are built in seemingly the way they've built this team, the Eagles can have like $16 million in Camp Space next year already. It's not like they're over leverage in all these different places.

You still have a decent amount of flexibility. No, that matters. I actually didn't know this until a few weeks ago and I was looking at the deals. I didn't know Jason Kelsey's deal is coming up after this year, too. so like because yeah there's a certain guarantees that kick in if he retires or not like they they've they've planned correctly right and even they draft the cam you're in the second round exactly who's like a one for one comparison well no one's really comparison to jason calci but body type there is some comparisons and how he likes to play as well but again that's team building it just

oh we already have our next answer down the pipeline with you know getting his work in getting taking a red shirt ear with jeff stoutland like i i think i would like that for my offensive alignment to be able to take a city year off before, especially they're about to take over the center spot. The other comparison I wanted to make you mentioned Whitworth. The Rams did a good job outside of just the trades, which the Eagles obviously have made a ton of, of using free agency selectively at the right spots to supplement the roster. And the Eagles have done that as well.

You know, Hassan Reddick and I think Javon Hargrave are probably the two best examples where they go out and sign both of those guys to not cheap deals, but. this year. So again, the cap hits are sometimes misleading, but the A.AV of the Javan Hargrave and Asan Redick deals combined are $28 million. It's 13 for Hardgrave and 15 for Reddick. They combined for 27 sacks this year. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Solid ROI. Yeah. Yeah. You, it's pretty damn good. Yeah. A million dollars per sack. That's better than the going rate. Just look at who gets paid this offseason for 10 sacks. and see how much they get paid.

Like that's, that's exactly it. That's a pretty damn good RLA. That's a really fun way to look at, especially when you brought up the Chris Jones deal. And I mean, Chris Jones is remarkable and amazing player, but it's like they get two of these guys

for basically a couple more million dollars more than Chris Jones is getting paid. The Whitworth contract is very similar to me to the Reddit contract. Obviously, they're extremely different parts of their careers. But three-year deals, I think right around with a cap inflation, about the same amount.

at super premium positions, and you find guys that are top of the market players at both of those spots. And so it became huge and kind of holding down those positions. We've talked about this. Like Whitworth, like, he was great with the Bengals and all that for years, but he didn't get the recognition until you went with the Rams and obviously got paid. And then now it's like he's given the speech after the Super Bowl and all that. But it's that's what we, again, it's revisionist history with all that. But that deal was more like when that Whitworth deal was saying like, okay, they got a good starter, but that's a locker room building. He's at the tail end of his career.

He'll put in a couple good years. I don't think anyone expected five amazing years out of him in his late 30s, which was unbelievable. He was a starting left tackle in his 40s. It was very good. It wasn't just like, oh, you know, good job out there, buddy. It's like, no, he was actually a really good player. But I think that what I just want to say is that, like, how we look at Whitworth now, it's like that deal was, I mean, one of the best hits ever, I think, in free agency. It really was.

as far as just what that did for that entire team. It was the same year. It was. Just the dynamic of those two guys. And I think that being able to bring in those forces veteran-wise and free agency, especially early in your team building process, the bills are another really good example of that, where it's not,

you're not winning the press conference on March 26th, because you signed Andrew Whitworth and, Robert Woods in free agency. You're not winning the office season title belt because you sign Micah Hayden, Jordan Poir to $7 million a year contracts, but those moves eventually became central to why those teams rebuilt the way that they did. And I say that kind of telling myself that, as I consider the $90 million, $100 billion in salary cap space that 2023 bears currently have.

So again, like how we talk about Robert Woods now. I think it's one of everybody's favorite receiver, like really just is, especially when you get outside the star group. He didn't break 700 yards in his four years with the bills before he got signed by the Rams. So again, yes, and then a couple of years later with it, he has two 1,000 yards seasons with the Rams right away. But that's the thing. Again, they got into a better situation. That's why those signings at the time were like, oh, that's fine. But like what you're bringing up with the bills, they had a whole bunch of like, oh, yeah, that guy's a solid player.

But those were supposed to just be culture guys. but they're culture guys and they're fantastic players. That's, you don't get any better than that. Can you imagine how competitive that receiver room was probably? Robert Woods, Brandon Cooks and Cooper Cup, like that's,

and that's why they blocked their asses off and did all that stuff because I'm sure it's just such a detailed competitive room. I know what this one looks like. Oh, I know. For the Eagles. I mean, think about what that has to be every single day.

Oh my God. You've got shattered every single wide receiver record in college. I was looking at up yesterday. I was just curious about it. because I wrote it, I was like, Devante Smith broke all kinds of receiving records in college. And I was like, well, that's obviously true because he won the Heisman.

He was the first guy who in 30 years. I wonder to what extent he broke them. I'm pretty sure. So, Devante Smith has 46 career touchdown. Receptions. That's the SEC record. I'm pretty sure the next guy in the list has 31. That's funny.

Jordan Matthews is weirdly second in total receiving yards of SEC history. Devonte Smith is first. Terra Vanderbilt. Yeah. Okay. So Devante Smith is first. Looking at it right now, he had 46 Amari Cooper, a second with 31. Wow.

Oh, Coup's up there too. Wow. No. So that, I mean, I'm telling you when he, I thought he was going to come out. I hope they played four years, but. Yeah, it does. But I mean, but at Bamba, you're not playing early. It's not like he, you know, Matthew's probably stacked his because he's playing early.

But that, that's, uh, with Devante, when he came out that, or he didn't come out after his junior year, I remember just being like, this guy's the best one. Yeah. It's with with Rugs and Judy. I was like, this guy's the best one. Why is he returning to school? I never understood it. We learned why.

Yeah. He's so, because he wins a freaking Heisman. I would do the same thing if I was guaranteed that. I know. I got two other, or I got a couple other teams. Lay on me.

Yeah. Okay. I have the 2008 Steelers. This is just one narrative aspect. This is like 2% genealogy here. It's just returning to the Super Bowl a few seasons after winning all. It's a really good coach. In their second season as well.

The other one is, it's kind of like a dual comparison. So this is my last one is 2007 Patriots and 2004 Eagles. And that's the receiver traits. Not the record, but trained for a top tier receiver. Patriot trade for Moss and Wes Welker. The 2004 Eagles trade for T.O. Nice memory jog here.

Totally forgot. I think this was the sit-up off season. I can't remember for T.O. Everybody was in the driveway. Remember who he's doing all that? I don't know if this was this off-season or the next one. But that Tio's agent, didn't put the paperwork in time to void his contract.

So they had him, so the 49ers still had the rights to T.O. And so they traded them to the Eagles or to the Ravens. And then like then they filed a complaint against this. I totally forgot about all this. And so it was because the agent didn't put it into the contract in time. So his contract was still technically with the 49ers. So he didn't become a free agent. So technically the Eagles had to trade for T.O.

As opposed to sign him as a free agent. So, but another one, gave McNabb, the number one guy he needed. Yeah, he was trained for a fifth and a player. But also it's just another guy that just kind of boosted this team. They always felt like it was on the cusp. Those Eagles, Andy Reed teams for a long time. You always felt like they're on the cusp. Trained for that receiver helping kind of get through.

So that was another little narrative one as well. Awesome. All right. That was just a quick little 75 minute exercise that we decided to throw together. I thought this would be a half hour. When we sat down, I was like this would be 30 minutes in and out, but not us. by the time you guys hear this, we'll be listened to it on Monday.

We're recording this on Friday in case anything earth-shattering happens over the next couple of days, but I'm flying to Phoenix on Sunday, so we decided to record this on Friday morning. We will be in Arizona. So have a fun slate of stuff coming your guys way next week.

We're going to have our beat writers from these teams on. Bull Wolfsack Berman, Nate Taylor, talking about how these teams got here. It's one of my favorite shows that we do. I guess, as I say, every year. I've only been here for three years. But when we've done this in the past, I've really enjoyed it because I just am always so

interested in kind of the stories of the Super Bowl teams because there's always so much you can glean from it. And I think that this will be no exception. And obviously, I love all of those guys. So be prepared to hear that early in the week. We'll have obviously Mike Sando and Randy Mueller doing football GM. We'll hopefully have some different voices from these teams past and some guys that know the personalities on both of these teams.

and then we will end the week with what I assume will be an obnoxious Super Bowl preview. I can't wait. Are we pushing two hours? Where we're going? I don't know if that's necessary, but we'll figure that. I think we did last year. I'm sure we did. I'm sure we did.

I hate that. I hate the like, I wrote 20,000 words on this topic. Or like, I did a two and a half hour podcast. That to me is not a point of pride. It's a symbol that you're bad at podcasting, which I am. So it's not surprising, but it's still is just one of those things. that even when I see it afterwards, I'm just like, God damn it. I hate myself.

But whatever. We're pushing hardcore history levels. I know. But when you talk about these teams, it's like, okay, all right, I'm going to talk about the right gunner, you know, that's, that's, I'm going to talk about how many times they kicked onside kicks. But that's, that's the depth that we can provide on the athletic football show, even if we can maybe get a little too great with it.

Casey always jokes about this, you know, other people's lives. Like, this is so and so Super Bowl, you know, when it relates to something. else in a different field. Like the Super Bowl is our Super Bowl. Like it's literally the Super Bowl. So I think they're going a little bit deeper than we might otherwise is just fine. So really, really excited to see you, to see everybody to hang out in Arizona. It's going to be a great week.

Hopefully you guys can be along for the ride with us. Now is the time if you have not to subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're going to be doing some video stuff down there. So please check it out. There should be a link in the description of this show that you can click on and subscribe. we're going to be visiting with some folks down there to throw some fun stuff on there.

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