The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - Hall of Very Good 2022 & updates on Dan Snyder & Deshaun Watson's legal situations

Episode Date: June 23, 2022

It's time for the annual Hall of Very Good induction ceremony as Robert Mays, Lindsay Jones and Nate Tice bring their top picks for players not quite good enough for Canton + Lindsay and Robert update you on the latest with Dan Snyder's situation in Washington and the congressional hearing that took place on Wednesday, as well as the latest info on Deshaun Watson's situation and possible suspension. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Thursday, June 23rd. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. Nate Tice is going to be joining us a little bit later. It's June. It's late June.

We're doing the whole very good today. We're going to talk about some players that we think are worth celebrating, but do not rise to Hall of Fame caliber, even though our next guest that I'm going to introduce cheated and put on some players that are way too good, and we will discuss that when it's time for it. Before we get into that, though, I'm thrilled to welcome my good friend, Lindsay Jones. Lindsay, how you doing?

I'm great. I survived three hours of watching Roger Goodell testify before Congress today. So I'm ready. Let's go. That's why we're starting off this way, because there is some news that we absolutely have to talk about that's happened over the last couple days in the NFL. And that starts with, let's call them the eventful House Oversight Committee hearings that happened in regard to the Washington football team earlier today.

you watched all of this in part so I didn't have to, which I sincerely appreciate. I got to digest all the information a little bit later. Walk me through what you feel are the most important kind of points and tenets of what went on this morning with the latest in that investigation. I guess, I guess not investigation, the latest in that process. Yeah. So, I mean, I think there's a couple important things. There wasn't a ton of new stuff necessarily. I mean, there wasn't a ton of like breaking news nuggets that came out of there because, And large part, Roger Goodell is really good at his job and, you know, not giving, you know, newsy answers to a lot of the questions that the various representatives had. A couple notable things. One, Dan Snyder did not attend. It was, he was invited. This was voluntary. He apparently is in France. His luxury yacht, which you can track those things is docked, I guess, near Cannes. So he is in France instead of coming to this committee hearing. But to me, the biggest like newsy nugget that came out of this hearing is that he's going to be subpoenaed to come and testify before Congress, which that is not voluntary. So they plan to hold another hearing, which will be now more deposition style because he will be compelled to testify.

And so we'll see how he and his legal team try to wiggle out of that because I don't think everything we know about Dan Snyder that he's not all of a sudden going to to like see a subpoena and be like, okay, you're right. I'll go. I'll tell you everything. I mean, you know. He's been very cooperative so far. Yes. Yeah. I mean, he's, if nothing, he has been defiant about everything over the last couple of years throughout this process. And then the other, I guess, kind of news that came out of this was right before the hearing started when the House Oversight Committee released a 29-page report kind of their own investigative findings. And included in that,

that was a dossier that Snyder and his team. I mean, I don't mean the commanders, but like Snyder and his lawyers and those people kind of put together over the last, you know, a couple of years, probably right after the initial Washington Post story came out in 2020 to basically conduct like a shadow investigation. So it included the journalists of the Washington Post who were reporting on that story, background on them, details about the former employees, a lot of the women who came forward publicly. So it just was like a way to kind of do their own, like, witness intimidation and trying to discredit the people who were involved in this process and also doing a lot of digging to try to figure out who the sources for that story was. So it was like looking at, you know,

Will Hobson and Liz Clark, the reporters from the Washington Post going through their follows and their likes to say, okay, well, they follow, you know, these women who used to work for the team and then follow, you know, Scott McLuhan and McLuhan's wife. And, like, these are all people who could have been leaking information. So those were kind of the newsy, newsy nuggets to me out of there. You know, Roger Goodell testified for almost three hours. Sorry, go ahead, Robert. Oh, I was going to say that this comes on the heels. I think yesterday of the Washington Post story about the 2009 revelation that Snyder was accused of sexual harassment and assault and there was a $1.6 million settlement as part of that process. So it's been an eventful 48 hours as it comes to new revelations when it comes to this

entire thing. So the Post has previously reported that there was a 2009 allegation. They were able to get more details about exactly what that entailed because so much of it has been sealed and Snyder and his team have gone to great lengths to try to keep any of that from being public, including suing during the Wilkinson investigation to try to keep Wilkinson from talking to the that woman because of the NDAs and all the stuff that was filed. They did end up talking to her. Wilkinson and her team did for this investigation. But it was notable that Roger Goodell under oath in front of Congress today said that he did not recall being made aware of that allegation in 2009 or that the team was investigating conducting its own investigation.

Both of those things would be violations of the personal conduct policy that was in place at the time in 2008. So that's another potentially newsy nugget. I would say there's not the reporting that I've done after and kind of the calls I've been making around this. I don't think this is going to expand the scope of the current investigation that is going on in the NFL. And I was told actually that that dossier that Congress put out today as part of that oversight committee report actually came from the NFL.

That was part of, you know, the 400,000 pages of documents that the NFL turned over to Congress. So there wasn't a lot, I think, that caught the the league by surprise in that investigation, even though it was new information to the rest of us. And as part of the league's response today, Goodell continued to double down and continue to say that they are not going to release any sort of written report with the Wilkinson investigation in the interest of privacy of the women who've come forward, which doesn't really seem to hold water as an argument. Yeah, I mean, it's the same thing I think that we've been saying really since last

October when this drumbeat for releasing the report really grew very strong. It was that you know, the league and now, and Goodell is the face of all of this, has been saying that they did not, they didn't even request a written report. So they don't actually have, you know, like a extensive 200-page document like they did for Deflategate, for example. They didn't request it and then obviously had nothing to release out of trying to preserve the privacy and the confidentiality. I've said all the way back to then that it was pretty clear to me who the league and Goodell was protecting. And it was not the women who worked for, the Washington organization. It was Dan Snyder and other team owners, but especially in this case, Dan Snyder. And, you know, Goodell is not backing down on that, repeatedly doubled down that they're not going to release that. It was definitely a significant part of the questioning from the Democratic members of the House Oversight Committee. The flip side of that was that the Republican members of the Oversight Committee didn't really have any interest in asking any questions that had to do with the Washington investigation. There was a whole host of other stuff about inflation and border control and

tampon crisis and Dave Portnoy. It was kind of a mess. I would not advise going and watching all two and a half hours, but it gave you a lot of insight into the like the sausage making in Washington. And it was, it was really, really ugly. So the thing that I will finish on is anything that has come up over the last 48 hours, does it bring us any closer to a world where the league and its owners decide that Dan Sender should not be the owner of the Washington football team. Because my thought is, after all of this, is what does this ultimately mean? Where does this ultimately going to bring us? Yeah. I mean, I kind of come back where I kind of always have here and that I, and I tweeted this earlier today, the cynical side of me is that thinks that win the rest of the owners.

And it is the owners, not Roger Goodell, who has the power to remove another owner. It has never happened. Roger Goodell could certainly move that process along if he wanted to. He was asked directly if he would remove Dan Snyder from ownership today and he said that he did not have the authority to do so. He could bring it up to vote if he wanted to. He could put it on the agenda at one of these meetings and force the other owners to, you know, at least go on the record or make a vote of one way or another. But he alone does not have the power to remove an owner or, you know, force anybody to sell. The cynical side of me says that as long as the main focus, of this is on workplace conduct and the treatment of women in the workplace that the fellow

owners are not going to care. The thing that will move this toward Dan Snyder's removal is if there are, if there's money involved, if sponsors are leaving the league in droves as long as Dan Snyder is still there. If there's any sort of merit to the allegations that the that the Washington team might have been cooking their books. Those sorts of things would motivate other owners to action. I don't think the treatment of women in the workplace is something that the rest of the owners care about enough to actually do anything. All right.

Let's move on here. Other news that came down earlier this week, Deshaun Watson has reportedly settled 20 of the 24 lawsuits against him. What does this mean for the process currently going on with DeShon Watson and League discipline and where that currently stands. Sure. So yeah, Tony Busby, who's the attorney who's represented nearly all of the women who have accused Deshaun Watson of sexual misconduct, I did announce that it was 20 of the 24 active cases have been settled.

There were also about 20 cases. We're not entirely sure if it was the exact same 20, but there were 20 that were ready to be settled last fall. But that didn't happen because it was not going to be all of them. But so 20 have been settled for remain active, at least one of those, the first suit that was brought by Ashley Solis, who spoke to HBO. She has spoken to the New York Times on the record. That one has not been settled. And that at this point, it appears that that one is going to proceed. They want to take it to trial. So his legal issues are not all the way behind him. But settling 20 out of the 24 at this point, you know, it takes a lot of kind of like the legal logistics off of the plate, off of his plate. He's not going to face, you know, doesn't. of trials next year at some point after the seasons beginning in 2023 is not going to be having to fly back and forth to Houston for all these depositions, that sort of stuff. I don't think it changes anything in regards to the NFL's investigation and their potential

discipline. The NFL said as much this week, right? Brian McCarthy came out explicitly and said this does not affect whatever the disciplinary process is going to look like. So one of the hallmarks of the NFL's personal conduct policy when it was rewritten in 2014 was to separate their process from law enforcement and the legal system. If you remember what led to them rewriting this policy, it was the Ray Rice situation where they let the legal system play out.

Ray Rice went into a kind of like a deferred program where he got to go take some like anger management classes and stuff. There was no actual punishment of the legal system. And they said, look, he wasn't, there was no jail time. The charges were dismissed because of this pretrial diversion, all of this stuff. And then you see the video and you realize like that. sometimes judicial outcomes don't match what actually had happened. And if you rely on the legal, the legal system to adjudicate these cases when you supposedly hold your players to a higher standard,

this is when you fall short of actually holding players to, you know, holding players accountable for their off-field actions. So that's what always led me to believe that really whatever happened here wasn't going to impact that investigation one way or another. I am curious how they might look at settling as if that's like, is that some sort of admission of guilt? We have not seen any of that out of Deshaun Watson at any point where he's admitted that he did anything wrong or understands why all of these women brought these allegations for it in the first place, why they may have been hurt. We've talked about this at length on this podcast.

So we have multiple episodes that we've gotten into all of this. But ultimately from my understanding right now is that, they're kind of in negotiations about like what potential discipline might look like. The NFLPA, I'm told, is involved, including their lawyer, Jeffrey Kessler, who is pretty well known in pro sports circles as being a guy who doesn't like to, doesn't really like to settle. He's not coming in there to negotiate a long suspension. So I think that has extended the timeline a little bit here. You know, I've heard that there. Since we last talked, the Austrian Post. report that came out and has been since corroborated by a bunch of different people about

a significant suspension being recommended for the league. We have not discussed that yet. Because the last time you and I talked, I think you and I both came down on the common sense side of thinking, it feels like a year is where the league would want to go with this because they understand whatever the optics of it are and how this is going to come off. And since we had that discussion, it's been reported in multiple places that the league does want something in the realm of a year-long suspension. Yeah, and I, so I was on vacation and trying to like mute all references to DeShon Watson while I was in Hawaii with my family.

But I did read The Washington Post story. And since coming back, I've been making a lot of calls and have heard the exact same thing, right? That there are people within the league office that are very much pushing for a significant suspension, you know, something much longer than what we've seen for, you know. The baseline for this type of violation is usually six games. I would expect now that the NFL is pushing for something significantly. higher than that. But the one place where I get a little, I get a little wary of just trying to predict what's going to happen is that we haven't, it's just unprecedented. You know, this is a new process. Sue L. Robinson, a former federal judge, is going to be making the decision here. Watson will

be able to appeal. That appeal will go to Roger Goodell. There's negotiations going on behind the scenes. But so I feel a little just like wary of predicting about how it's going to go other than I do expect it's going to be like, you know, a legitimate significant suspension and that we will get news of it certainly by before the start of training camp. If not sooner here within the next couple of weeks. I mean, to me, it screams classic Friday, a 4th of July weekend news dump. So clear your calendars for July 1st to, you know, to have some sort of reaction to that. that was when they released the initial Wilkinson report findings last year was 4th of July weekend. And I believe that there is some pretrial discovery deadline that's June 30th, correct? So now that's less important because there's because the 24 cases down to 4.

But even if it's 4, there's still that date. And that also plays into the before training camp after that date on 4th of July weekend. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I mean, I think everybody kind of wants to have some sort of relationship. resolution, you know, an understanding of what's going to happen before we get too far into the season, you know, into training camp and all of that stuff. Although I will say like, I don't really fall into this camp of like, oh, the Browns deserve news. I mean, the Browns deserve

every bit of like the mess that they're in right now. So we're not going to do the, I don't think anybody needs to do the Browns any favors to help give them clarity with their quarterback situation. All right. So that's all we have on that for right now. We will obviously revisit this when it's appropriate when the suspension comes down. We'll be covering that as we need to. For now, though, we're going to take a quick break before we chat with Nate. All right. It's time now to welcome my good friend, Nate Tyson.

Nate, how you doing, bud? Doing it very well. This was fun putting this little list together for our whole very good, like compared to last year when I was just like, I think this is the parameters we're going off of. And this year, I've got to have a little bit more feel for what we're going for. Well, apparently I don't have feel for what we're going to going for. We can talk through some of this because I thought that some of your arguments for why you included some of these guys was good. So here is the very loose, very not real set of circumstances and requirements that I have as I'm going through this.

Robert's moving goalposts. Because there's no rules. There are no rules. So there are some guys who just you look at it and like too good. Too good like does not count for this. This is not the spirit of. the exercise. A couple of players that I will throw out

as I was going through this that I'd consider that are now eligible, that I was like, nah, too good. Vince Wilfork, too good. And so my, that usually aligns with guys who have very quickly been Hall of Fame semi-finals in their first couple years of eligibility. So if you

get to eligibility for the Hall of Fame and you're already on that list of 25 semifinalists and year one or two of eligibility, you can't be in the Hall very good. You are too good. So one of your guys, Nate, was on that list last year, but he's been retired for like 15 years. So that to me is okay. That's a sweet spot where it's like, all right, I can understand that. Retrospective nominations, like 20 year later, the Agra Martinez is of the world. Yes, the goal here is not to find guys who are arguably Hall of Famers. That's what Canton Court is for.

This is about guys who we do not think will reasonably ever be inducted into the Hall of Fame, but we still think our worth celebrating. So were there a couple names that you were considering and didn't throw out, Lindsay? Because I have a few that I want to talk about just very quickly. Yeah. I mean, I guess I didn't have like a really strong list. So because I kind of looked at it as there are, there were a couple guys I think that

I was considering who will probably end up being on that list of 25 at some point. One of my guys is in his first year of eligibility. And we don't know who that list is going to be. I've seen the preliminary list of guys who are on the very. preliminary list, but we have not yet voted on who the 25, the group, the first group of 25 is going to be. I kind of looked at it as guys who I just don't think will ultimately get in based on the career that they had. And that first list, I think, is kind of tricky because you can kind of get onto the very initial list. Like, fans can submit anybody, you know, any selectors can kind of say, hey, let's put

this guy up for consideration. So guys who maybe had a little bit more public profile, more recent, you know, guys who are very recently retired, I think they sometimes get like a little artificially bumped up onto that initial list and then aren't going to make the subsequent cutdowns. And especially maybe in a couple years, we'll see them removed from that list. Like Chad Johnson is one of those kinds of guys. Chad Johnson is exactly the person I was going to bring up.

Nate, do you think Chad Johnson is too good? For this? No. Yeah. No, he's very. You don't think he's too good for this? I think, I, that's, I, maybe next year I put him in then. Because my initial thought was, too good.

He made, he was three-time first or second team all pro. Seeing that. Yeah, he's right at that cutoff. It's right on the edge. Yeah. He didn't make an all-decade team, which is like one. If I see all-decade team, I throw a guy out. That's why I reconed Kevin Williams.

I went from very good to Canton Court in one week's time last year because I was like, I argued against it and for it in the two weeks time. So there was another guy who I had the exact same thought about. is Logan Mankins. Logan Mancens isn't a Hall of Fame semifinals, but he's on the old decade team. So it's like, ah, he might be too good. So Will Fork, I thought automatically too good.

Somebody who has not been a Hall of Fame semifinalist, but feels too good. And depending on where we come down on this, he will be my first player next year. What do you think about John Abraham? Is John Abraham too good? He made my list last year, and I think I ended up too good on him.

Well, let me see. It is shocking to me that he has not been a Hall of Fame semi-finalist. He's got 135 sacks. He was consistently awesome. He didn't play on very good teams, but I still feel like he is very much underappreciated. If we come down on a certain side, he'll be the first guy I mentioned next year. Man, yeah, you might tab him from next year. He's kind of right at that cutoff. He's kind of like the Chad Johnson's of the world and even, you know, the Kevin Williams of the world where you're just like, he has enough pro balls, enough all pros and then but a hundred sacks is kind of like that's a big number to hit and he has

130 like that's kind of a yeah i don't know i don't know he's a remember some dudes guy linds you you have to argue for john abraham in this room because john abraham was fucking awesome he was john abraham is it's not just a sacks total thing right for also by the way if you get 130 sacks doesn't matter if they're cheap like you can't get 130 cheap sacks you don't look into that really good to get 100 sacks and if you go back three and you look at some of the PFF numbers, because we have them. Starting in like 06 now, it's like 15 years ago. So a lot of the guys, we grew up watching in adulthood.

He's at the top of the list in terms of pressures, like every single year. He was fun to watch. I just think we're very much overlooking how incredible John Abraham's career was. He was the Jets last good pass rusher. Yes. He put a hex on the Jets. They can't have a good pass rusher anymore. John Abraham left in the Falcons cut, too.

Yeah. He was good with the Falcons. Yeah. He was, I thought he was an awesome, awesome player. So those are the four guys I had. I didn't really say it 130 sacks, but I think I, um, I think I like had him last year. I might have Richard Seymour last year. That might have been the name.

I was actually, Richard Seymour is a tough one. Yeah, because Seymour had already been a finalist last year. Yeah. He was one of those guys who you was getting in. He had been in the final room for discussion and just hadn't gotten in. Abraham has that hasn't quite made that. I've been sniffed it.

Yeah. The one season, he played full, a full year with the Cardinals. He was 35 years old and he had 11 and a half sex. Yeah. kept producing. This dude just continue to crush it consistently every single year, no matter what team he was on. John Abraham was really, really good. Yeah.

Yeah, I'd love to compare him side by side with, you know, like last year, the kind of the young, the youngish past rush, you know, young, but like newer nominee pass rushers. Like it was Jared Allen and Demarcus Ware. Like, I want to get Abraham in that conversation. Like to me, DeMarcus Ware. I think he deserves to be in that conversation. If Jared Allen and DeMarcus Ware in it, he's in it. I mean, I was stunned that DeMarcus Ware didn't get in.

in last year. I'm not going to lay. I don't have to get into everything that happened in that, that room. But like, when we found out that he was not in it, I was like, heartbroken and stunned. Yeah. I mean, I was just like, I couldn't, like, you know, I couldn't believe it. But yeah, like, I want to put John Abraham in that conversation, especially alongside

Jared Allen, maybe even more so than Demarcus. Because there was, like, to me, and maybe that's because, like, I know DeMarcus better. And, like, I covered his career more directly. Like, to me, there was a gap, I think, a little bit between Allen and Ware. Like, it wasn't that close. It wasn't like an either-or a toss-up for me. But I'd love to get Abraham in that discussion. So, yes, maybe he's too good.

You look at Ware's career. He was first, second team, all-pro, first-team all-pro, first-team, all-pro, first-team, first-team, first-team, second-team, in his first-team, second-team in his first-season. Yeah. I mean, he's like, no doubt about her to me. And then he has, obviously, the late career. I was going to say, he had two great careers, basically, in one. So, I would, that, yeah. I think he's in a slightly different class if you look at just like accolades, pure accolades that John Abraham was.

But John Abraham is still like the sort of guy that I think is worth mentioning here. All right. Lindsay, since you did not do this with us last year, we are going to give you the honor of kicking us off. Who is your first inductee for this year's class for the whole? Very good. Okay. So I'll go with my guy first that you guys think is too good to be on this list. And that's Anne Quombolden. He is a guy who has made the semifinalist list. He has been on the group of 25. But I think given what the receiver room looks like and what the log jam at receiver is going to be like, I just think it would be really, really hard for him to like be a serious, to have like a real serious candidacy in terms of like getting really serious discussion about actually getting in. I think he kind of fits all of that when I think of what is a hall of very good, like a guy who was always one of the best players at his position but never the best. a guy that I just freaking loved playing.

I enjoyed covering who did kind of all of the things that you just really respected as a player. I mean, he was one of the toughest dudes. He broke his face and then played the next week. I mean, not a great testament to the concussion protocols at the time, but like he is a freaking badass. But he was like he was never the fastest guy in his team.

I mean, nobody would ever like, you know, pick him as like a guy you'd, want to win a race. But, you know, and he also was never really like the number one receiver receiving option on his team, which, you know. When he was, it was always a team that didn't really throw the ball. You know, it was like those Niners teams weren't heavy passing teams.

When he was in Baltimore, it was not really the type of team. And it was always like if he was the number one guy, it was kind of because somebody else wasn't stepping up to be that guy. You know what I mean? Like because Michael Crabtree had good issues with Michael Crabtree in San Francisco or something, for example. And Ravens were trying to find a receiver for years. you know, Steve Smith until Steve Smith came along. Yeah, I mean, he just like, I mean, he put together a pretty long career. Right now he's 14th on the career receiving yard.

Career receiving yards list. But his two best statistical seasons were two of his first three. You know, his rookie year when he was the NFL rookie of the year with the Cardinals in 2003. He only had one season with double digit touchdowns. Three pro roles, no all pros. But I don't know. Only three Pro Bowls is surprising. This is a very good career, actually.

I thought he had more Pro Bowls, to be honest. Here's why it hurts me to just blindly put him in here. It's because I want Anne Combolden to be more in consideration for the actual Hall of Fame. Even if the accolades aren't quite there, and I think you're right, Lindsay, because there are going to be so many guys with, he has 13,800 receiving yards, essentially. There are going to be a lot of guys with. numbers in that range as a lot of these players come through from this era. There should be a rule of cool. If you were a certain level of cool, even if you didn't have 10 Pro Bowls or four

all pros, you should get bumped up like two notches. And Anquam Bolden is one of the coolest players of my entire lifetime. Like one of my all-time favorite guys. So putting him in here is almost an admission that the Hall of Fame probably isn't going to happen for him. And I think I'm just hesitant to do that because it makes me sad. He's kind of like a football person's. football player, like kind of guy, yeah, and which is a lot of, I'm sure a lot of these people we

nominate. But that's what he, like, because even like scouting football circles, Bolton's a type like a player that people compare to. He's kind of all the time. He's a met, he's one of those guys that people mention all the time and that that's a good thing. That means you were known for doing certain things. And Bolton was being tough, tough as hell, being an awesome blocker, being so physical and just being Mr. Reliable. I mean, so, but he's always a guy that every year you'll see, oh, he reminds me of Bolden or he's like a smaller Bolden. Like, you know, so that means you did something right when you're playing. But now that looking at the accolades and what Lindsay's argument, yeah, I think he's actually

a pretty pretty good nomination for all very good. I'll say my one other thing that it just like when I talk about Anquam Bolden that I always, actually there's two things, but I think they're related here. I started my career as a sports writer in South Florida, working at the Palm Beach Post covering Western Palm Beach County, including these really small towns, Pahokie and Belglade. And Quom Bolden is like, he's one of the two best players to ever come out of Pahoki. And he was. Who was better?

I had a teammate from there. Fuck. I don't have to put you on the spot there. What's his name? If somebody was better than Anquam Boland. He just got into Hall fame. Ricky Jackson. Ricky Jackson.

Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. Who was awesome because he would like call the game. So I would get to like watch games the rickety poohy poohy press box with Ricky Jackson. It was really cool. But I was covering high school football there in like 0304, 05, which was when Anne Quombolden was a rookie, his first couple of years when he was kind of exploding on the NFL scene.

And my favorite thing was every single kid, like almost every single kid that I would interview from Pahoki, he would say my cousin is Anne Quombolden. Like they all just took so much pride in this guy. And you'd have to kind of say like, well, you know, before I write that like you're Anne Quombolden's cousin, like how you kind of have to verify or whatever. And every once in a while you would get the guy who said like, oh, yeah, our moms are sisters. And you say, oh, you really are. So I've just kind of had this, like, I've held him in just like a tremendous amount of steam because I know where he grew up. I've, you know, met his family. His brother went back to end up coaching at Pahokie High School for a while.

And so I just have a tremendous kind of amount of respect for where he came from. He held the Florida All Purpose Records, or All Purpose Yards record until it was broken. by Tim Tebow. So it's like he's in like pretty rare company. And then I will say he, we're talking about statistics and accolades and stuff. He gave up a couple of like stat accumulating years at the tail of his career to retire to found the Players Coalition.

And it just, I just really respect. It was courageous. It was a lot of hard work. He, you know, he could have kept playing, but he realized that this was something that was much more important to him and

decided to retire instead of kind of like splitting his, his passions. He decided to kind of go full into the social justice activism at the end of his career. That's great. We use this term, I think, too often. And Quam Boland is a one-of-one player, like in the history of the NFL. He'd ran a 472 in the 40 at the combine. It's like 232. 432. His three-con drill was in the third percentile. He had a 33-inch vertical leap. His broad jump was in the 10th percentile. to be that sort of explosive litmus athlete and have 13,000 receiving yards and be a dominant player in the NFL for a decade is insane. Like it is so, so hard to thread that needle. There was nobody like him. I loved him so, so much.

I remember it wasn't his first game. He had like 200 yards. It was like a lion or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, his rookie year was amazing. Yeah. I mean, in that old Cardinals helmet. This is just evolving into like dudes talk about old sports players.

players. That's exactly what the show is and that's okay. All right, before we get too far down that road, Nate, what's your first one? My first one. Well, first one, I'll nominate or not nominate, say one that I think is too good, but he's borderline. And like, but I think you, Robert, you were kind of like when we chatted before. You're like, oh, yeah, I like that's my own criteria. I can't do it. And that's Joey Porter. Joey Porter's a good one. Yeah. And it's right on the line. He's all decade team. And for me, you have the semi-finalist credentials, which I think is a good one. Mine is more like, if I see all decade, that's really hard for me to go. Very good. That's elite. You're the all-decade team. And I'll just talk about Joey Porter real quick. So he might be for Canton court. So this is a preview for can't court. But two-time first team, all-time pro, three-time pro baller, all-decade team. 98 sacks, 12 interceptions. He's to me is like the epitome of that era's three, four. Him and Harrison. I mean, of course, with the Steelers. But, you know, he also had big year with the dolphins when he went to he signed with the dolphins as well, Joey Porter. But that is just to me in my. head forever is what I picture a three, four outside linebacker. That is just what that player is. But just a big play machine. I'll get to my real one though.

And that is. He also finished his career in Arizona. Every single past rush, he had like one season with the Cardinals. Dwight Freeney, John Abraham. Every single guy had like, you got to go to Arizona to finish all your career. JJ Watts there now. JJ. Yes.

That's another one. It's really funny. Everyone's just retired in Arizona. That's what you're doing. Just playing a little golf in the dry heat finishing out your time. Dry heat. No, that's, oh, man, there's, I feel like there's another one, too. I'll think of it over the show.

All right, my real nomination for the Hall of Very Good is Ricky Waters. And when COVID first hit, and I had no idea if the 2020 season was going to happen, I watched a lot of old stuff on Fox telecast and stuff. I was worried about you. Yeah. That was a tough time in my life. That was right before the show started. Yeah, so I was prepping for that.

That's what I was doing my life before when Robert's like, hey, you seem to like football. I want to do a podcast. So I'm watching, so didn't know of COVID, like what would happen. So I'm watching all these old games. I'm watching the 49ers Cowboys games, which were a lot of fun to watch, a lot of playoff battles, just big time games. And Ricky Waters just stood out. I remember him from a Seahawks day as to how he ended his career.

And that's how I, my version of him. We were young for the Niners run. I barely remember him with the Niners. Like my football memory started about 96, 97. So I barely, I don't remember that. And to him watching him, watching him his, we're just talking. stats, five-time pro bowler, but also just he put up a lot of counting stats. He had three with thousand-yard rushing seasons, or a thousand-yard rushing seasons for three

different teams, him and Wilson McGeigh, are the only two to ever do that. But his running style was so fun. He was kind of the epitome of that 90s version of West Coast offense running out splitbacks. He was a really good receiver. Him and David Johnson actually kind of run the same. It's kind of funny to watch. Oh, nice.

It's kind of cool. They're cut from the same cloth. Well, because he's 6-1, right? Ricky Waters is fairly tall. So, like, that when you watch David Johnson run, and I was going to maybe recommend Matt Forte, I didn't end up doing it because I didn't want to be a super homer. But those guys who are cut like that, there aren't that many of them. So they start to resemble one another.

Yeah. And yeah, the long-legged. And it's just, yeah, it's a smooth kind of like weaving, serpentine running style. It's really cool. And like Camaro kind of runs like that, but he's smaller. So it's kind of cool, like when you see these guys. But he's been a semi-finalist. But that's it.

I think that was just in the last year, actually, I think. And Lizzie might know that a lot better. But yeah, really fun player. I think very good is exactly right for him. I don't think he was that iconic running back. Running back is the used to be for years the position in football. But in the 90s, he was kind of always that very good player. And I had a long career.

So just a fun, fun player that I think is very good is a right tier for him. Average 50 catches a year over his first nine seasons in that era, which is really, really impressive. He's one of the more fond players to watch, rewatch it from a modern lens. He was on the all rewatch team. I remember him in Philly because when he was in Philadelphia, that's right when the light clicks on for me. When I remember watching other teams that weren't the Bears. And that's where I was like nine, ten years old.

So that's a really, really good one. Lindsay, do you remember Ricky Waters? I don't have like really strong, strong vivid memories of Ricky Waters. Like you was kind of that a little bit before. Like where I was watching a lot of like in the 90s, I was watching a lot of AFC football because I didn't have a TV package. So I watched a lot of the CBS. So I have a lot of like really strong AFC West.

AFC West memories because that was pretty much what was on in my house in the late. Is that funny how that I know. It's like, I mean, that's me and Robert for NFC Central, NFC North. It's a lot of my memories. I had to stop myself from three. throwing on three more NFC North guys onto this list. So I totally understand how that goes.

Speaking of, my first one, I am truly embarrassed that we did not include him last year because he is the epitome of what this exercise is supposed to be. Somebody who was memorable, distinct, had a play style unlike anybody else's, but was not celebrated with traditional accolades in the way he should have been. And it's Antoine Winfield. Antoine Winfield went to two Pro Bowls, two. That's it. And I have a lot of things I want to say, but I was looking back at, again, some of the PFF numbers from that early time when he was in Minnesota in the back of his career.

They had run stops. They just run stops for every single position. Among corners, here are Antoine Winfield's run stop rankings from 2006 to 2012. Okay. Second, tied for third, but first and run stop percentage. First, tied for fourth, tied for fifth. also at 29 stops on past plays, which is best in the league. He had the number one coverage grade among all corners in PFF that year in 2010.

Number one in runstop percentage in 2011, first in total run stops and runstop percentage in 2012. He is one of four players from the 2000s to have 600 tackles, 65 passes, defense, 15 interceptions, and 10 force fumbles. The other three are Ronde Barber, Ray Lewis, and Keith Bullock. Yeah. You don't have to really hype up H.1 would feel to me. He was awesome. I was looking back through high.

lights yesterday. And there was a couple plays in the clips where he would slide under a puller or a fullback and somehow still have enough explosiveness to spring into a tackle. It's insane. It's like watching an action movie. Yeah. It was wild. And just so, so physical.

And that's just he was underrated. We should appreciate him more. I honestly think that if he comes along 10 years later, one, the sport of football is different. The slot corners so much more of a high profile position, just the way we think about them as a starter and a real part of a lineup, I think, changes the way that people talk about him. And I also think that advanced stats and looking at advanced stats help him in a real way because we didn't know about it with corners. All you saw was interceptions. So back when he was in the league, the NFC corners every single year, DeAngel Hall went to the Pro Bowl every single year because DeAngel Hall got a decent amount of interceptions.

DeAngel Hall also gave up like eight touchdowns a year. So if in a world where we're looking deeper into the numbers, I just think he's one of those guys that goes to like four or five first or second team, all pros. If he plays in this era compared to the era that he played in, like I truly believe that. Yeah. I mean, with especially with more DB nominations that you can do now with the Pro Bowls. Yeah. The rosters are shaped differently. Yeah.

For the entire time he played, you could only pick two, like two outside corners, basically. He is, I mean, it makes sense that you love him because you also love Kwan Williams. And it's like, Antoine Winfield is a supercharged better version of Kwan. And that's how he would be used nowadays. He'd be perfect for what we talk about. We talk about defensive slots. Like, he'd be perfect in this day and age as a tackle. Run defending defensive slot.

I mean, but he was only like five, nine. That's the craziest part about it. And he was saying, he would say he ran a four nine too. He was like, oh, I did not run like a four or four coming out coming at college. He goes, that was juiced. He was just a pure football player. Just an incredible player. I mean, just so, so fun to watch.

You go back and watch him, I mean, unlike any other player at that position in the league. And just the type of guy I absolutely want to talk to when we're doing stuff. Or talk about when we're doing stuff like this. All right. I think he's an interesting guy too where just when we talk about position because, so Ronde Barber is a guy who's too good for this list might not end up getting into the Hall of Fame. He was your first Canton Court nominee last year, right? Yeah, wasn't he?

He was your first one. Yeah, that's because he's right in that in between. And he's a guy who I've had like a lot of conversations about as I, you know, have these Hall of Fame conversations because there's a lot of people who are pushing really, really hard for him. But it's just hard to appreciate like playing most of your career in the slot when that wasn't really a high profile position. So.

And my other thing about Winfield is I just let and I don't want to spoil what's coming on Nate's list too. But there's now this whole generation of NFL defensive backs who are, have like these Superstar Sons playing in the NFL, a lot of them playing defensive back. One of you guys had Patrick Sartan. I did last year. Last year. So you had Sartan on your Hall of Very Good.

And then didn't you pick Patrick Sartan on your, or did Robert get him in our draft? I got him on our draft because Joan Ramsey was still sitting there. But obviously now Antoine Winfield Jr. Yeah. Is a very, very good player in his own right. We've got a lot, you know, Asante Samuel Jr. Stayed in Minnesota. I was good.

Is As Asante Samuel too good for this? He feels like a good one to me. He's kind of right in that range, I think. He's right in the range. I'll talk because I have another one. But yeah, those D.Bs at that time, like those kind of late 90s, early 2000 DBs, it seemed like everybody had like two or three big ears and it peaked back down or drip back down. It was weird, like looking back at all of them.

Antoine, Antoine, Antoine, Assate Samuel had 51 interceptions. He was really in his career. I mean, 51 interceptions. You look at his past. defense every single year. It's crazy numbers. I mean, he just, ball hawk is an overrated term. That guy just took the ball away consistently. And for multiple teams, very few times you have a 27-year-old corner hit free agency. I continue to be really good. And he was really good in Philly those couple of years. So something to consider for next year possibly. All right. Lindsay, what's your next

one? All right. So my next guy when we're talking about DBs, he was a generation, I guess, behind. And we do not know yet if he will end up making the semi-finals. list, the 25th list, because he's in his first year of eligibility. And that's Cam Chancellor, who I freaking love. I don't think he'll get into like serious Hall of Fame consideration for a number of reasons. But I think he's very, very much should be in this discussion. Four-time pro bowler in eight seasons with the Seahawks, second team, all pro twice. I think part of that is the position that he played. And he played alongside a very, very good safety. The guy who probably took a lot of his, the all pro nods that he would have gotten.

Only his 12 career interceptions, he wasn't like a guy who racked up like takeaways, forced fumbles, sacks, really anything in like the statistical categories. But I don't think there's anybody who was more important to the Legion of Boom in that era of Seahawks football and really that era of the NFL and like the dominant teams of that generation than Cam Chancellor was. The way he felt. Yeah. It's just the presence that he had.

Set the tone. It was just unlike anybody. And just the way he looked and the visor. I mean, talk about cool players. Yeah. He is right there in that conversation. One of my favorite stories I've ever written in my entire life was in 2014. I wrote a story talking to a bunch of guys that he just annihilated, going all the way back to high school.

Demarius Thomas was like an incredibly good sport about it. I got called to Marius Thomas. He's like, yeah, I'll talk about the Super Bowl. hit and he just was very, very nice about it and gracious in a way he did not have to be. But I remember talking to a kid when, Camp played at Phoebus High School in Virginia. And he was an incredible player. He was a quarterback. He just had like 300-yard all-purpose games with like five or six touchdowns.

But he was obviously just a monster on defense. And this kid I talked to was like, yeah, my leg, my shoulder still hurts. Like when I lift a box or whatever, 10 years later, he could still feel like this ache whenever he would have to lift something heavy because of the hit the Camp Chancellor put on him. And that's just, he was so memorable that hit on Vernon Davis down the sideline. There was just so many of those. And that hit he put on Demaris Thomas at the start of the Super Bowl. That was one of those moments, like, this game is over.

Yeah. Like, this game is over. I mean, it was over from the first nap that went over Payton Man said. It was really over. Yeah. That was the line of the exclamation point and then Camp Chancellor put the dot. Although I will say, DeMaris Thomas had like a Super Bowl record for number of catches after that hit. So, I mean, it's one of the things that when we talk about Demarius and his legacy is like

that he took that hit and then was like the only good thing to talk about for the Broncos in that Super Bowl. But he was not the same. When I talked to Demarius's mother back before the Super Bowl, Demarius was not the same. He was still dealing with like physical effects that he had told his family and people closest to him that stemmed from that Super Bowl and that hit from Cam Chancellor. But I saw, like, yeah, Cam, like kind of just like a legendary, intimate. but legal. I don't think you could find anybody who would say like, oh, he was a headhunter. No, no, no, no, no.

He was an intimidator, not a, not a dirty player. And, you know, I just think what I'm looking at this group, too, I mean, it's, it's so hard because, like, I think Richard Sherman will eventually be a Hall of Famer here. I don't know about Earl Thomas. It's, it's not we're discussing. It's a very complicated thing. Yeah, I mean, so Cam is like, you know, Earl Thomas was clearly the most, like, freakish athlete. just like the most incredibly gifted physical specimen on that defense. Richard Sherman was kind of the stat guy, the face, the voice, everything of that group.

But Cam was like the heart of it, right? I mean, he, you know, and it's going to be hard. Like, I don't think eventually we're going to look at this Legion of Boom defense is going to be like the Bucks defense where you had like multiple Hall of Famers. I think Sherman, I hope Bobby Wagner gets in. If I'm still a selector when Bobby Wagner becomes eligible in. in six or seven or eight years, I will like go to the frickin' mat for that guy. But, you know, I don't know if it's going to be, you know, all of them getting in. And that's just kind of the nature of the way that they played.

I think that they weren't. I mean, part of the allure of that group is that like they weren't this group of superstars. You know, they were fifth round draft picks or, you know, that kind of came together that all the pieces fit really well. They are the right coach and Pete Carroll. But I just, I love Cam Chancellor. And he had to retire early. I mean, injuries, the way his playing style caught up to him.

So he wasn't able to kind of play long enough to maybe, you know, he played only eight seasons. I wish he could have played 10 to 12. Yeah. I remember talking to a great wrestling group. Sorry. They had the talker, talent and the intimidator. And then the fourth guy. 100%.

The interchangeable fourth guy. But sorry, go on. Oh, I remember, I just remember talking to Corey Winsley after that year. And he was a rookie and he got put in. to start against the Seahawks in week one because of injuries at center. And Bruce Irvin said that week, like, I'm praying for him. And he was just terrified. He was so, so scared.

And one of the things he told me was that he was just imagining Camp Chancellor in that visor, and he was just sitting there up in Seattle, in the hotel, couldn't sleep the night before the game. That's what he was seeing. Like, that's all you need to know. It's not just us. It's guys in the league where, like, this guy is terrifying. And that's awesome.

Like, there's so few guys who've ever come through the NFL that just have that. sort of specter about them. And Camp Chancellor, absolutely was one of those guys. I'm really glad you brought them up, Lindsay. I got a new, not a new respect, but a confirmation of respect, I guess, my first year in Oakland, we played them in the fourth preseason game. And, you know, how fourth preseason games, especially now are. We're not playing the starters.

You know, it's the backup fest. It's practice squad guys. It's their resume builder. And but sure enough, that Seahawks team, because they're so competitive, Russell is out there in the first quarter, the whole Legion of Booms out there in the first quarter. and we did a whole thing where we, so we have our twos going against the Legion of Boom and Oakland. And we did like a whole like formation thing like change it.

So it's like, okay, so now we got Thomas down and Cam Chancellor has to be in the post. So perfect. We got him where we want them. And we ran like a vertical play and he just ran stride for stride with our receiver. Just like it was nothing. The ball goes up and he just blast him with the shoulder as the ball comes down.

And I was like, Jesus, this guy's on another level. And that's supposed to be the the stiff slow one. Yeah, yeah, the guy you can take advantage of him. Take advantage of. No, he's runs stride for stride with guys. It was, yeah, he was a total, total ridiculous talent. All right.

Nate, who's your next one? Next one is one that was on my shortlist for our shortlist in that last year, but I'm going to go pull the trigger this year. And that's Sean Rogers. And I really, oh, man, this is an NFC North. Like, this is perfect right here. And I think he's just a guy. He played nose tackle, of course.

And now nose tackles have kind of, you know, a dying breed or but a true, true old school nose tackle, but he was a freak. Like he was literally unblockable at times, six, four, three, 50 and moved, his burst was ridiculous. People, YouTube his highlights. It's, it's for people listening right now. He played for the Lions and the Browns. So that's kind of, especially the rough, rough, rough time for Lions of Browns.

But just an incredible, incredible athlete, probably one of the best kick blocker, field goal blockers of all time. Yeah. He has 17 in his career. One of the best modern times, the best I can remember. I remember him doing against the Vikings once. Accolates-wise, he had three Pro Bowls, one second team all pro. So he's kind of perfect for how I look at these guys. But I'm pretty, yeah, Sean Rogers was a guy I was really, I had a lot of fun rewatching for this process because it's like, oh, yeah, this guy was, this guy was really good move.

And looking again through a modern lens, he'd be, I think, more appreciated for what he'd be asked to do. there is a group of guys in that era. So Chris Jenkins came into the league the same year Sean Rogers came into the league. So you have these just dancing 360-pound dudes who were just quick as hell and unbelievably talented. Chris Jenkins had a run early in his time in Carolina where he was one of the best players in the NFL. We absolutely could have suggested him for this in the same way. And then Vince Wolf for came to the league like three years later. It was just a golden age for dudes like that who played at 360 and just could control

Williams. Yep. Oh my God. There's so many of those guys. I know. And that's what we have a couple of them right now. And like Ted Washington's in the Pat Williams of the world. Yeah.

The Rogers Jenkins, they're in a different level athletically to me than some of those real pluggers were. Yeah. The way that Chris Jenkins could move at 360 was absolutely wild. It's the burst. It's that we freak out about Jordan Davis right now. And it's like, that's kind of. I'm not like totally comparing up, but pictured those highlights of Jordan Davis,

but that's what Sean Rogers was doing as well, like at that at 360. It's a really crazy stuff what he was doing. Chris Jenkins and Julius Pepper's on that same defense. I know. They had some other dudes on that team too. DJ Williams is on that team back then. I mean, they just had a really, really fun defensive players. And also gamble at DB.

You know, like just like what kind of names you remember one of those kind of teams? And then Mike Rucker was the other guy. He played on the right side because Pepper's played on the left side. He was a 10-sac guy. I mean, they had a lot of players on that team that I really appreciated back then. And just a very, very fun group. Todd Sauerbrun was their punter. He's not making my hell of very good.

He's not going to make it. He's not going to make it for me either. All right. My next one here, kind of similar, I think, to the Cam Chancellor one. I think obviously just because these teams, played against each other all the time. We'll remember that rivalry. Martin's Navarro Bowman.

And his peak is honestly higher than a lot of the other guys that we're going to consider here. He just didn't play long enough. Injuries really derailed his career, but what an unbelievable player. And my favorite part about rewatching him and going back through, he was an amazing runstopper. Like one of the best run-stopping linebackers in the entire league back then. They played that kind of base 3-4 in San Francisco where they were both uncovered and

they just kind of roamed around him and Willis and watching them as the centerpiece of a defense in those early Fangio days was amazing. But the thing that I didn't remember about Bowman, and you go back and look at the numbers and the tape, he was an unbelievable pass rusher. Like the spin move that he had and just the physicality when he would be one-on-one with running backs was disgusting. He pretty much had 20 pressures a season every single year that he was a full-time player on like 100 pass rush snaps.

He was one of the most effective purred out pass rushers in the league every year he was healthy essentially. And you combine that with just how devastating he was against the run. And I mean those Niners' defenses were just so, so intimidating and tough. Like every single, there's tough dudes,

Patrick Willis, Justin Smith, all of those guys. And I mean the defensive backs, like Dante Wittner was on those teams. There's a ton of tough, tough dudes. and he was right at the center of that really good in coverage. And then I don't think even in the moment, I appreciated how incredible it was that he came back from that,

truly devastating the injury. Like, never knew if he was going to be the same, comes back, and leads the league in run stops in 2015, the year he came back. Especially a guy that drives on speed. Like,

yes, that's what's incredible. That speaks to a smart, he was. Just an unbelievable player. And again, if he has a few more healthy years, we'll probably have a different sort of conversation.

He was a four-time all pro. I mean, he was right there at the top of the league with Willis for a while, but I don't think he'll ever have a chance to get in just because he doesn't have the years. Yeah, I think the same way. I got to spend a half year with him in Oakland. That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's awesome. He's such a cool dude. Like, super smart, just loves talking ball. Just, he was a Penn State guy. So he found out, and we were around the same time, I found out I was a badger, so we talked Big Ten ball a lot.

But yeah, just a great dude, total pro. But I totally agree with you. One of the smarter players I've ever been around as far as just how he viewed the game. And like as far as like, he's one of those guys he read read, right. It's when I love talking defensive players, especially DB's linebackers where they just talk about how they read the game all at once. Yeah. And it's like, how do you see all that? He's like, well, you know, you see the left guard light on his stand.

So he's like, really, you're staring at the quarterback the whole time. You saw the left guard there too. But he was one of those guys where it's like, okay, got it. I'm in this assignment. Boom. Okay, I'm going to read everything out. But yeah, truly, truly a really fun, great player. But just, yeah, short career, didn't even play until he's 30, which is crazy. Yeah.

That group, that era of Niners football and specifically a 49ers defense is going to be really interesting on, like, how history remembers them. They didn't win a Super Bowl, but they were really dominant for a short stretch. You know, it was the Vic Fangio kind of, I mean, he'd been a coach. He had been a good coach for a long time, but kind of what fans. NGO did with that group, but between Bowman having that devastating injury and Patrick Willis retiring by his own choice early, I don't know if, I mean, I don't think there'll be any Hall of Famers out of that group. Patrick Willis has the best case. I think that's a crime. I think Patrick Willis should walk into the Hall of Fame. So it's so hard. I mean, there might be some other

If Calvin Johnson is a Hall of Famer, Patrick Wilson should be a, Patrick Willis should be a Hall of This is my stance on this. So he's, so he is obviously way too good for this list. Oh, yeah. He's been, he's been a, not just a semi-finalist. He's been in the top 15. That group, he made it in there last year. Didn't get into the final group of 10, I guess, that gets discussed.

But at some point, he might get into that next group where there's, there's further discussion. But it's just a really, it's going to be an interesting kind of group and how we remember them. You know, Justin Smith, was he on your list last year? Too good. We decided too good. I think I would have him kind of in this realm as well. He's the tweener for me. Even like Ahmad Brooks, like, Fonte Wittner.

I mean, I think they're all, I mean, they're all really, really, really good players. I mean, I would put Bowman, I would probably put Bowman and Justin Smith kind of in the same, kind of in that same category. And if Bowman had been able to play another three or four years or chosen to, We might have him in that. Like, he's way too good for this list because I think he's right on that edge for me right now. If you look at their careers, Kikli was first or second team all pro every single year he was in the league. He also never got hurt for an extended period of time. Obviously, the concussions played a role in ending his career.

But he played at least 10 games. It was the first second team all pro playing 10 games in 2016. Luke was pretty good. But Willis in his first six years was first or second team, All pro, all six of those years. And they both went to seven Pro Bowls. They're both on the all decade team. I think if one of those guys gets in, the other guy should get in. When you're thinking about linebackers of the era, it's three guys.

It's Keekly, it's Willis, and it's Bobby Wagner. Those are the three guys. And I think all three of those guys should get in based on the careers that they had, even though Keakley and Willis did not play football. It's just the inside linebacker. It's becoming one of those positions. that I think in the modern NFL, it's going to just be kind of hard. I mean, I think those three guys eventually will get in.

I think the Keechley and Bobby Wagner cases might be a little stronger than Willis's because of longevity. We'll see where it ends up landing. But like, Zach Thomas still isn't in. He was another one where I was kind of surprised that he didn't get in last year. I think it was a Sam Mills ended up getting in in his last year. But it's a position that's going to be really hard to get in moving forward. maybe beyond this year.

I mean, this group that we've talked about, I'll be really interested to see where that position goes long term. Yeah. All right. Let's your next one. All right. So I'm going to,

I'm going to go with the quarterback. I think the first quarterback we've talked about today, right? I've got Steve McNair in our, in our hall of very good. Because if we're thinking about guys who were, that we just loved watching, and I think if he maybe had played in a different era.

You know, his career ended in 2007, right as football changed. So he never played in like this passing era. And, you know, I think we kind of forget about like just what a freak athlete he was, huge arm, could play in the pocket, could scramble, was tough as shit. Like, I would have loved to see him play when there were maybe some rules that protected quarterbacks a little bit more protections that he was not afforded. He also didn't play with like elite of elite. elite, like, skill position guys there.

Tim and Derek Mason. That was it. He was the offense back in the day. He had Eddie George, obviously, but, you know, three to half yards of touch. You know, some good linemen and stuff that he played with. But, like, he was it. He was it.

He was so fun to watch. I mean, he didn't put up ridiculous stats and, like, you know, the stats that he from 2000, what, 1995 to 2007, like, they just don't look good compared to the numbers that we're going to see for quarterbacks moving forward. you know, and he was like he was a co- MVP with Peyton Manning. So he's a guy that, you know, because he was kind of in the peak of his career when Peyton was young and Brady was coming on.

The same division as Peyton. Yeah, exactly. So he didn't quite maybe get that recognition. But I loved watching him, loved watching him, respected the hell out of him. And I think he's like the exact type of guy that should go in our hall of very good. It's a really, really good one. And somebody that you just, with this, I just love being able to close your eyes and you can picture the guy play. That their style and the way that they play is just so distinct that you can just close your eyes and see it.

And he is absolutely one of those guys. It was really unlike anybody else in that era. Because, I mean, Vic obviously moved around in a way that other quarterbacks didn't in the way that McNair did. But the way McNair did, but the way McNair moved and just like how he was built. I mean, he was like a fire hydrant. I mean, he was just so, so stout. And the way he moved around, he was really, really, really fun to watch. Yeah.

In the modern day, he's a get a bucket guy. Yeah, 100%. A hundred percent. Watch his college highlights. It's one of the most fun things. It's the most fun highlight films you ever watch. Because he was playing against like much lesser competition. Yeah.

Still got nominated for a Heisman at Alcorn State. I think he was the finalist. I think he was fourth or something like that. But yeah, just a ridiculous player. But I love watching McNair as a runner as a throw. or had to play in the Jeff Fisher offense. So you're never going to have, held him back a little bit.

Yeah, the heavy, heavy stats. But he, you ever watch those games? I'm like you're saying, where you feel a player, when you can picture a player, you watch those Titans teams. There's always kick-ass defenses and then Steve McNair making place. That was their formula for years and years. He love the player. One yard short of winning a Super Bowl.

Oh, that too. Yeah. All time. All right. I'm going to cut you in line, Nate, because I think my next guy is a logical transition from the Steve McNair conversation. I'm putting Dante Culpepper in there. I'm pandering to you.

So here's the reason. I think that there are some guys that we put on there because the totality of their career and the breadth of their achievements are very good as you look at the body of work. They're just not going to get to that Hall of Fame type level. And there are other guys that deserve to be in here because they're cool as shit. And watching them play football was a blast. And that's what Dante Culpeper was. Dante Culpepper was 6'4, 260 pounds with one of the greatest arms in NFL history.

Point Bank period had one of the best arms ever. And a couple different ways that manifested. The trajectory on some of the deep balls and the way that it would explode out of his hand. The video posted. Well, so that's a different type of throw. There are some that were like, it's a moonshot that he's thrown moss down the field. But the best ones, there was one against the Saints that I did not post. Back corner of the end zone.

The back corner of the end zone and then like the front pile on a couple times where he's just loading up from the 50. And the ball never leaves the screen. The trajectory of the ball, it just does not make sense. You should not be able to throw a 58, 60-yard pass on that sort of line. The guys who could do that in NFL history, you could probably count them on one hand. It's like him, Brett Favre, maybe Michael Vick, Justin Herbert, Jeff George. It's not a very long list. And it was so beautiful that he got to play with Randy Moss.

Because you have these two guys who were just forces of nature at their positions, arguably in a different way than almost anybody else who's ever played the sport. They were forces of nature at their positions. And them getting to play together, you know, results were mixed, as you very well know, but that 2000 and 2004 seasons, like two of the most exciting offensive seasons in NFL history. and Dante Culpepper was a big reason for that. So I just feel like he is worth celebrating in this moment for that reason. I'm one of my favorite players of all time.

So not going to get much pushback for me. But Dante, Pep, you know, it's that he coming, I mean, he's just a bundle of tools. It's like one of the greatest bundles of tools of all time. Coming from UCF was that he like set the accuracy record in college, like for FBS level. I think he broke like Steve Young's record or something of that sort. And then so he comes in. So not only is he could throw those beautiful moon shots, which I thought was normal. I thought every quarterback that you.

So the quarterbacks I grew up around were Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, Brad Johnson, Dante Colpepper, Gus Ferrat, and Sean Hill. And so like I had a mix, but mostly I was around Cole Pepper and Gus Ferrat, who just Farat can throw like 80 yards as well. But Farat was throwing these, they're throwing moonballs. And it's just like, I saw Sean Hill throw. And I was like, okay, I'm more like that. And but watching, I just thought that was so normal.

and on top of his 265 running over guys. Like he would run over Erlock. He could move and he could run. Yeah, he was a legit. He was probably a 4-6 guy. Like, I mean, like that's probably, but I'm 260. Yeah. And his first game, it was against the Bears, his first start.

And he ran for three touchdowns. He didn't even throw for one. He ran for three because he had no idea what he was doing. Like, so he was just so big and could just get away with it. But he grew into being more of a quarterback. And then that was the peak was that 04 year, which was just Randy went down for like six or seven weeks with the hamstring in that same Saints game that you mentioned. And Nate Burleson was like the leading receiver.

That was Nate's big year. But it was watching him as, you know, some of my greatest highlights. And that's, I've talked about this before, the sound of the Metro dome when you see Pep do that little crow hop. Yeah. You saw him that shoulder tilt up and you just hear everybody at the Metro dome stand up at the same time. It's like, that's burned into my brain.

But yeah, not going to get much pushback for me. I love, love this nomination. I love watching highlights. the way you can hear, when you watch those highlights, you can hear the ball come out of his hand. Like you can hear the whip when he throws that ball. It's just unlike a tight throwing motion. That was so crazy with him. It was so tight.

And you would pin it on guys and then throw something 75 yards the next point. He makes it look casual. I mean, some of those throws look casual for the line he's putting those 60 yard balls on. So I figured that we might as well just keep the quarterbacks tied in there together. It was just tough the way that like his end came kind of suddenly. Yeah, it really did. He fell off a cliff. I mean, he fell off a cliff. I mean, I was living in South Florida.

Like, I was like a sidebar writer for the dolphin, you know, at the Palm Beach Post when the dolphin signed him. That was as kind of the like, we don't trust Drew Brees's shoulder. So we're going to sign Dante Colpepper. And it just. All time sliding doors moment like in the entire NFL. Yeah. So that's what I think Dante Colpepper. That's what I think about not, not as much with those biking years.

But. Oh, the sad. Unfortunately. I should go, I'll go back and watch like the good times. There's just like a highlight of video of Moss with Rainy Moss's like 40-yard touchdowns or more, and it's like 17 minutes long on YouTube. Yeah, it's insane. The chunk of the coal pepper ones are really fun.

All right, Nate, let you back in here. Who's your next one? I've torn between which one I would go with. I'm going to go with Chris McAllister here. And I loved Chris McAllister back of the day. Those Ravens' defenses ruled. Chris McAllister was on my short list last year. I almost put him in.

And I'm not picking this other one. I might pin it for next year. and that's Peter Boloware was my other. It was the same argument. That's that defense when you have a lot of iconic guys. And this is Lindsay, what you're talking about a little bit with Cam Chancellor. When you have so many good players on a really iconic unit,

some guys get squeezed out, which kind of stinks. But Chris McAllister is, I mean, one all pro, one second team all pro, three-time pro bowler. Like I said before,

iconic defense. How I remember McAllister from when I was a kid was a lot of returns. Like he was a playmaker. I had the long kick. return or it wasn't a kick return. It was the field goal return touchdown against the Broncos, actually. And it was like the end of the half like a Monday night game. And he takes it back like 100, it's 100 and something yards.

And that's how I remember, I'm just being on those defenses that like the blitz so much, those Ravens defenses, he was just able to stay sticky. I think he would have gotten more accolades because right away, he was a good player for those Ravens teams right after he got drafted. He got his hands on a lot of balls. If you look back in the stats, his past nine picks his first two seasons. And it's, if that happened now, we'd be going nuts.

And I think it was because that was the same time, a lot of the good corners were in the AFC. You already brought one up. Oh, no, it was, not it was Sartan. Oh, no, but we had Sertan. We had Charles Woodson at this time, Sam Madison, Thai law, champ Bailey. These guys were all at the same time playing cornering the AFC.

So I think he just kind of on a good defense where it's like, oh, no, they have other good players. That's not just him. He kind of got squeezed out with some accolades, but still had some. But just a really, really fun player and really like a modern corner that can play man to man over and over and over on a blitz happy team or now would be quarters. He'd be locked down on the outside every kid on every snap. And I guess technically he got a second Super Bowl ring because he was, he played in two games with the Saints in 2000.

Oh, did he get that one? Ah, that's nice. Just like he didn't play much, but he was there. Yeah. No, a lot of these corners, looking back when you look at these stats, do you get? I remember that once they hit 30, odds are they're probably going to fall off a cliff. It happens fast in that position. It happens very fast. Some of the corners from that era when I was looking at Winfield and Pro Bowls,

some guys I really enjoyed watching back then, Al Harris. Al Harris. Rheen Mathis. There were just guys back then. It was like, those Jags defenses with Henderson and Rachine Mathis and Marcus Stroud. I enjoyed those teams. I thought those teams were, I remember really thinking, deeply thinking that they were going to beat the Patriots in the 2007 playoffs. I think they're going to win that game.

I think they're going to beat them. And then Brady would have completed his first 22 pass. Something like that. Yeah. Oh, my God. I watched that, like a bowling alley when I was in college or something like that. We watched the whole game. And I remember just, that was just brutal.

It was just knife. It was in London. You're in London. I was in London. I remember watching the game like 4 a.m. in London because that was the semester. I was in London and I had to convince the bartender at our local pub to keep the place open to watch that in the Super Bowl later. That's awesome.

One of my favorite teams, my dad was a part of was that Jaguar's team. Black uniforms. Like, there was something about those teams. It really enjoyed. A lot of fun. All right. Lindsay, who's your next one? All right.

I'm going to go my Homer pick to wrap us up here. My homer pick is Rod Smith, who played wide receiver for the Broncos, 12 seasons, franchise receiving leader, three Pro Bowls. he was really overshadowed on like those Broncos teams of the mid to late 90s and early 2000s by Shannon Sharp and Terrell Davis, who are both Hall of Famers. But I freaking loved Rod Smith. And he was not a product of the L.A years. I mean, he he came to Denver in 1995 as an undrafted player. And he was good until the end of his career playing with Brian Greasy and Jake Plummer. And I think there were a couple other guys mixed in.

in the middle. Bubby Brister. Bobby Brister for, yeah, well, Bobby went when L.A. was out for a stretch during one of those seasons. But, you know, he was really kind of just like at the heart of the Broncos skill position guys. You know, Shannon Sharp was a much bigger personality.

Terrell Smith's peak was significantly higher. Obviously, he won an MVP in 1998. But for me is like a kid growing up in, in Colorado in the 90s, you know, 80s and 90s, and then really those Super Bowl years when I was in high school, like Rod Smith is like, he was it. Like when I started covering the NFL,

like the first NFL game I covered was, I believe it was actually a Dante. It might have actually been a Dante Culpepper, Miami Dolphins game, the Broncos and like seeing Rod Smith in the locker room. It was like 2005 or something. And I was like, that was,

oh shit. Like that's Rod Smith. And so I just like, I just loved his career. He was so reliable. Tremendous story, undrafted player to go on and lead the franchise and receiving. He still lives here. He's around all the time.

He's like mentored every receiver who's come through town since he retired. Demerius Thomas and him were very, very close now through like Corton Sutton Sutland and Jerry Judy. You regularly will see Rod Smith kind of out at Broncos practice talking those guys through every little thing. So he's kind of, he's my homer pick there. but I just, I love him. His 80-yard touchdown in Super Bowl against the Falcons. He didn't really have stats in the Super Bowl win against the Packers. He played a really big role in that game, but he didn't have a lot of catches.

And then they opened that game the next Super Bowl with just this like bomb to Rod Smith. And that, you know, that game wasn't close, I mean, in part because of that touchdown to start the game. But I just, it's like, that's one of those memories of like teenage Lindsay, like that touchdown is like burned. memory. He was a pro-bler at 35 years old. He came into the league at 25. Yeah. His rookie year, he was 25 years old. That's why I always. And it's, I just remember him, he's not a remarkable looking person. He's like six feet tall, it's not overly big. And he was undrafted. And he just was so damn good, just like consistently productive all of the time. Yep. Yeah. So smooth. I just, yeah, that's, I remember watching him live a couple times. I think you were going to bring

you were saying I covered a Dante Colpeper thing and I realize you're talking about the dolphins, but the loss over the head game where he caught the ball at halftime, threw it over his head to Moe Williams. But in that game, I remember Rod Smith playing it. We getting to see him live. And I remember just being like, oh, because again,

I got spoiled with Dante Culpeper's arm. But I also got spoiled with Randy Moss being 6-4. And so I pictured every good receiver to be 6-3-6-4. And then you see Rod Smith. You're like, oh, okay. Like, that's Rod Smith. But he was so good. It was so, so good.

Although, no, that might have not. I might be wrong now. That might have not have been a Dante called Pepper game. It might have been a like Jay Feedler. Oh. It was a dark time. Ors you needy's time. Yeah.

I think they got some orange unis during that time. All right, Nate. Who's your last one? All right. I'm going with the receiver as well. And I'm going with Joe Horn. And the Joe Horn, if you asked me years and years ago, if I'd been like Joe Horn, like, but he's perfect for this.

He's all very good. because he played on some wacky Saints teams with Aaron Brooks at quarterback. And if you rewatch those games, Aaron Brooks probably wasn't the easiest quarterback to play with. He had a big arm and everything. But those balls were spraying. And I got to rewatch him. And as we're doing this process, a lot bigger than I remember. I remember Joe Horn as a speed guy and catching bombs.

And like, if you rewatch him, that's what a lot of his highlights are. And he's so fast and smooth. But really just he's 6-1-2115. I didn't realize how just thick. he was and really good in the red zone and all that. He was a four-time pro bowler in years when there was very good receivers in the NFL when we talk about glut of receivers that are going to probably come up in the Hall of Fame conversation. And I'm not saying I haven't mentioned once about his touchdown celebrations, which makes him iconic, legendary, cell phone, every single one.

I telling people, go watch like the eight-minute YouTube highlight someone has a bunch. It's got like 30,000 views. Every catch, Joe Horn was doing something after. words like some dance some motion some movement some reference to something it's is a very very time imagine if he got to play now oh when you didn't have to worry about it like getting fined or anything oh man but he he was out of his mind uh but no it's and that was this another person that has their son in the league another player um excited to see his son play for carolina this year. But yeah, Joe Horn was a, I think he's a perfect conversation for this because just like he was very good always, but you never thought of him as that elite guy, but you

knew he was very good. So I think this is a great, great place for him to be. Another receiver, Saints receiver that I consider for this was Marcus Colston. You know Marcus Colston never made the Proble? Never. Not one time in his career did Marcus Colston make the Pro Bowl? He's got like 11,000 receiving yards. No. He never made the Pro Bowl, and he has an insane amount of total yards for somebody who had never made the Pro Bowl. Going back and watching those, like, 06 Saints teams, you forget just how they would push the ball down the field. It's so much fun. In 06, Breeze averaged 21 yards per attempt on deep passes back then.

I mean, it was just so different than what we came to expect from there later on. So the Saints had some underrated receivers back in the day. I told you about the hand wipe story, right, watching film of Drew Breeze? because this is how much how vertical he was, or how they used to be under Sean Pate was, we were watching Clips over the summer at Wisconsin, because Wisconsin ran the ball a lot and we threw heavy play action. So we're watching Drew Bree,

he's just throwing all these overrouts, all these post routes. He gives a play action fake. He puts the ball in his left hand. As he's turning, you know, because you have to do a half turn on those play action fakes, he wipes his hand on his pants and then puts a ball back in his hand and throws the post.

And I've never seen anything before that or after that, that did it. And Drew Breeze is wiping his hand midplay and throwing like 60-yard touchdowns down the field, just on another level. The other thing, the breeze is pocket movement. Like how good of an athlete he was early in his career, you forget. You forget how well he moved around. He was a really, really good athlete.

We think of him as this kind of statue-ass pocket passer, and that's not what he was when he was young. No. All right. Lindsay, I'm all going to do more pandering here. I pander to Nate with Dr. Culpiper. I'm doing the same with you here. I'm going with Elvis Dumerville. My guy, my guy. Elvis Dumerville.

So Elvis Dumerville's last year in college was my last year playing high school football. And I remember watching him back at Louisville. And I loved watching him in Dway Freeny because I'm 5-11. And watching guys built like that dominate the game from that position, I just always really appreciate it. Obviously, Frini had that crazy spin move. And Frini is one of my favorite players of all time. Super, super smart. It was an incredible player.

Dumanville didn't have that signature move. He's one of just the best pure past rushers, I think, in NFL history. Yep. So if you look at the numbers, he's listed at 6-1 at the Combine. I don't think he was 6-1. No way. I don't think I was Dumerville with 6-1. He's 5-11 on Pro Football Reference.

That seems more correct. So if you do 6-foot or shorter, let's be gracious with 6-foot or shorter, he has the most sacks in NFL history from anyone that is 6 feet or shorter. Yeah. And it's not really that close. Yeah, I was going to say. So Aaron Donald is right there. So Aaron Donald is like and him here in that same conversation.

I think if it's, if you do six one. So really had production from the edge, unlike any other player ever, Elvis Dumerville had at six foot or a little bit shorter. He, when you watch him play, it's just he does everything right. Like it's no one move. His little, just like simple rip that he would do, he had obviously a great leverage because he was 5-11, just the feel he would always have for, I know exactly how to use your weight against you. And just a little rip that he would be able to do.

His long arm, kind of like speed to power move is always very good because he always felt exactly when to use it. The way he would just dash inside exactly at the right moment all the time, he just knew exactly how to pull every single lever as a pass rush. And when you're 5-11, you have to be able to do that. You can't win with just overwhelming size or speed. and watching him go about his business was amazing. Somebody else, he has 100 sacks.

And if you look at the win rates every single year, he's always right there in like the top 10. 11th, 7th, 6th had 50 pressures a year. Every single year he was a full-time player in the NFL, every single year, just mindlessly consistent and productive and did it in a way that literally no one else in NFL history has ever done. From 06 to 15, his first 10 years in the league, the only players in the NFL who had more sacks were DeMarcus Ware and Jared Al.

That's it. Pretty good. And to do that with that sort of frame, I just, I loved watching him play. I was just like, that guy's built like me. One of one. Except that he had freakishly long arms. Yeah. I know there have been many wingspan discussions on this podcast, but freakishly long arms,

like the wingspan of a guy who was significantly taller. Like 33 or something, right? Yeah. Yeah, really, really long arms. When you talk about like, leverage points in arm placement and hand placement. Those things really helped him in his technique. Obviously, he was on the Broncos when I started covering them.

And he really gave me a lot of like football education. He was one of those guys who I just as like a beat writer just really, really appreciated and respected because you could sit there and talk, go go talk to him about anything, about football, about about pass rush moves. That 2009 season when he had 17 sacks, that was the weird Bronco season. where they started 6 and 0 and then finished, I believe, 2 and 8. It was the McDaniels year, right? Josh McDaniel's first year there.

And just such high hopes for him. And then when he tore his peck during training camp the next year, just really, really devastating. Like, I vividly remember watching it happen and running off of the field because we were not allowed to tweet from on the practice field, like running off to, like, be able to report on this happening. You know, and that was kind of like, you know, he played a couple more years in Denver, but that was really his peak. The fact that he had another 17-sad season is wild when he was with.

And the whole fax thing. There was a fax mishab where he could have stayed in Baltimore or could have stayed in Denver. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was a nightmare where, yeah, I mean, that was, that was more the Broncos' fault than it was. I forgot about that. It wasn't really Elvis's fault. It was the Broncos agent's fault. And it was bonkers that in, whatever that was with 2012 or something.

They were still using it. It was 2012 because then he had to get cut. For those of you who were too young to remember this, I don't know if they're like 20-year-old people listening to it. So literally, Elvis Dumerville, his agent did not fax the paperwork into the Broncos to restructure his contract. And they missed the deadline by like five minutes. And the Broncos had to release him because the bonus was due. So he was released and then signed with the Ravens.

And he was like, oh, he's going to come back. And like, you know, maybe he'll resign. But there were like such bad feelings at that point. And his agent and I like split up with the agent. The agent was kind of left in. Justifiably fired. agent and I would have by the way. I was, I was covering an incident of a tournament at that time.

T.O. have one of those, too? Like, there's been a couple of those. It was, it was a huge, yeah, it was a huge mess. I just, yeah. I just respected him so much. I loved covering him. I loved watching him.

And I'll say the one other little note about him that just like, when you talk about what a guy he was and like should be part of his resume is what he did for developing Von Miller at the beginning of Von Miller's career. Vaughn gives a ton of credit to Elvis at the start of his career and then Von Miller later, or I mean, to DeMarcus Ware later. Vaughn was really lost those kind of the years in between. Like he really needed a mentor and Elvis was huge, huge for him. So Vaughn's resume is part of Elvis's resume here for the Hall of Very Good. 20 and a half sacks is last year at Louisville.

20 and a half. Didn't he have like a ton of force fumbles? That's the one sad. He had like something crazy with force fumbles. The one of my favorite that sat line, but yeah, just throw it in. But that 17 sacks with the Ravens, he did it on two starts, like, which I think, which I think is hilarious if you want to know what Elvis Duma Vroll's role was with the Ravens. Hey, it's there.

Hey, it's passing down. Get on the field. Go wreak havoc. But yeah, he, Dumervils. When we talk about one of one players, he's one of one. Like, he is one of my, like one of those players that I'll always remember because you never see a guy like that. You never see sub six foot guys.

And you especially don't see his dominant sub six foot, so six foot guys like him. That's why just love watching it, just because the style he had to play with. And again, just understanding the leverage and the little rip moves and just every single fine, nuanced detail playing the position was awesome. That, the 2005 Louisville team was really interesting. That was the Brian Brough team. Yep. And remember Michael Bush, Michael Bush, that big running back that they have? Yeah.

I really, that team was really fun. Harry Douglas was on that team. Yep. All right. They were fun. They were always on Thursday night. All those old big East games were always on Thursday night. So I used to watch them all the time.

Brenno Jacamini was on that team of a long time. Who's the young? Jihon Jocomini? Hi, yes. Here, I'm going to grab that pile of dog. You didn't really quick up there. Yeah. Oh, he was.

Yeah. Mobyokoi. Yeah. Literally the youngest guy would be drafted. So, yeah, he was pretty young. All right. Now we're devolving into your. number of those football players, which that was inevitably going to happen.

All right, Lindsay had to go. She had to do a TV hit, do more impressive things and more important things than us just going back and living down memory lane here. But this is really fun. I enjoy doing this every year. It's a great way to spend some time in June, remember some players that were deeply important to us back in the day. So I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation.

We will be back tomorrow. We're getting a time machine, bringing it back to the present day. We're going to do the lessons we've learned from the best offenses of 20. 2021 tomorrow. We did defenses last week. If you have not listened to that, I'd encourage you to go check it out. I really enjoyed the conversation that we had with Deonté. Deante was going to be on tomorrow's show. He is unfortunately under the weather, so he will not be able to join us, but he'll be back very, very soon. So please come back and check that out. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Sincerely appreciate that. Please subscribe to The Athletic.com slash football show is where you can read all of our wonderful writers. even in the off season, we have tons of great stuff coming to you all the time.

For now, we'll be back tomorrow. Talk to you guys soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.