The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - How did the Eagles and Chiefs get to Super Bowl LVII?

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

Super Bowl LVII features the top seeds from both conferences, but that doesn't mean the paths they traveled were at all similar. Bo Wulf, Zach Berman and Nate Taylor—the Athletic's beat writers covering the Eagles and Chiefs—join Robert Mays to dive into how their respective teams arrived at this point on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Bo on Twitter: @Bo_WulfFollow Zach on Twitter: @ZBermFollow Nate on Twitter: @ByNateTaylorSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's episode is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.comPeloton: Try Peloton risk free with a 30-Day Home Trial, New Members only at onepeloton.com/home-trialBurrow: Show Burrow you’re listening to The Athletic Football Show by shopping at burrow.com/mays and get 10% off your first orderAllbirds: Discover your perfect pair of Wool Runners at Allbirds.com todayBlue Nile: Find the perfect piece of jewelry for life’s special moments and save up to 50% now at bluenile.comBetter Help: Visit BetterHelp.com/mays today to get 10% off your first month3:00 The Eagles' path to the Super Bowl8:00 Evolution of Jalen Hurts15:00 Big moves made this offseason19:00 The people who shape the team off the field21:50 Nick Sirianni's influence25:40 Howie Roseman does it again32:45 The Andy Reid connection38:18 Expectations for the Chiefs at the start of the year47:23 The making of the secondary56:33 Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid and Chris Jones58:48 Chiefs/Patriots parallels68:28 Savvy contract manipulation Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays, and we are coming to you guys from, I guess it's the Media Center now at the Super Bowl. It's no longer Radio Row. It's 2023. We're calling things different things. But we are at the Super Bowl in Phoenix, Arizona. Very, very excited to be here.

And very excited to do the show. One of my favorite shows that we do every single year. I'm going to talk to our Chiefs writer at The Athletic a little bit later, Nate Taylor, about how the Chiefs got here, just talking about that. their path to this point, some of the guys that maybe we don't think enough about as people not around these teams every day, really tap into the wonderful resource of the guys that cover the teams for the athletic that we have. And speaking of that, joining us first, our two Eagles writers from the athletic,

first of all, good friend, Bull Wolf. How are you doing, man? I'm doing good. Thanks for having us. Very excited. And also joining us is Zach Berman. Zach, thank you for doing this. Great to be here. I never am good at introducing two people.

I never know how to do it because I've always joke that, the podcast intro, it's like the Zoolander thing where you can't turn left. I have to do the same intro every single time or I just wouldn't be able to do it. So whenever there's two people, I just start to get out of my depth. It's hard to introduce, Zach. There are so many superlatives that you could start with. You get sort of paralyzed by choice. Zach, let's start with you.

My first thought about this team is that it doesn't feel like it's been this long. It doesn't feel like it's been that long since we did this. 2017, and maybe it's longer ago than I'm probably giving credit for, but it's only been five years. and I wanted to ask you, what do you think is the biggest difference with the way this week feels, with the way this team feels, all of those aspects with this team compared to the 2017 team? Sure. Well, in 2017, it was very much playing with house money.

Yeah. postseason game that that really caught on and the fact they were playing against the ultimate goliath at the time right tom brady bill belchick and and and the patriots the eagles conversely they they they expect and when i say the eagles this year's eagle team they expected to be here and it became pretty clear relatively early on in the season especially you know week two they they beat minnesota monday night they have they they start what eight no nine and oh and uh and they were just rolling and Then you compound that with the fact that Rogers had a down year, Brady had a down year, Rams had a down year, and there was no heavyweight in the NFC.

It seemed the Eagles were that heavyweight. And then they've been favored in every game this year except Christmas Eve when Gardner Minshu was starting in Dallas on a short week. Other than that, this has been the expected outcome, and they very much carry themselves that way. Like you look at their point differential this year. It's absurd. You look at their point differential in the playoffs.

They won 387 and 317, right? So, like, they are a juggernaut right now. And I think they, so the big difference between the two teams is the expectation, the frontrunner status, if you will, of this team compared to 2017. Yeah, I think 2017, because the Eagles had never won the Super Bowl before, those, like the weight of the game. that was with them. That was much more of like an exorcism, I feel like, when they got that done. Whereas now that deck has been cleared. I think it's nice that, you know, it's Eagles versus Andy

Reed, both sides have won their Super Bowl. They don't have that weight with them. Whereas this team is sort of going in with their, you know, their chests out. Like, we feel like we are the best team in football, period. Now is our chance to sort of go prove it. And that's kind of what I was getting at, just because when you fit, when you win one, things change with the organization, with the guys who've been there before. But also kind of with the city and the fan base. So how do you feel like Eagles fans interface with this team differently maybe than that first time around, Zach? I think the first time around, they just wanted to win, right? It was, it was, as, as Bo said, they had never won before, right?

And, you know, the tears on the street and the stories you would hear about the linking of generations. I mean, there are kids in grade school now who, who, what they know is the Eagles, winning the Super Bowl. And, you know, those kids are going to be insufferable. And you compound that in a year when the Phillies were in the World Series. You know, the Sixers are playing well. The, I think the fan base now, there's still very much.

If you're an Eagles fan, there's always that chip on your shoulder. I mean, it's what Jason Kelsey said during the parade. You know, I, what? They don't like us. We don't care. They don't like us. We don't care. I was going to sing it, but I felt like that.

And so. Maybe late night. So, yeah, there's always that part of Eagles fans, but as you referenced, it's not the forbidden fruit anymore. I mean, they tasted it. They know what a parade feels like in Philadelphia. Yeah, and I think it sort of had to happen the way it did, whereas you said, like, that first one had to be,

they were the underdogs, like they got to carry that chip on their shoulder, as opposed to being the favorites and worrying, like, oh, here we go again, like all the times it happened in the NFC championship with game with Andy Reid, right? This morning, Bob, I was listening to him. our conversation from training camp and just about the way we felt about this team back in August. We nailed it, didn't we? It actually holds up very well. I feel pretty good about it. There are some skeletons in my closet. I can tell you guys that right now. I feel okay about that one.

We'll just rerun that bad on the feed this week. Might as well. So one of the things that you said that I thought was really interesting was about Jaylen Hertz and just about the expectations on him and kind of the pressure on him going into the season. And we all knew this, right? The Eagles maintain flexibility in next year's draft, I think, maybe in part because they didn't know what was going to happen when Jaywin Hertz, and they didn't know what sort of pivot they may need a quarterback heading into next season. And you said something that I think it looks pretty prescient now and that if Jaywin Hertz was the same quarterback he was in 2021 this year, the addition of talent offense and defense for Philly, still in a love and win team, still a playoff team, the ceiling changes on

this team based on how much Jaywin Hertz progresses. So when did you know that that ceiling was going to change as it relates to Jalen Hertz? I think week two. I think week one, they won the game because of Jalen Hertz in that game, but it was sort of a Jalen Hertz that we had seen. It was, you know, a bunch of man blitzes and he was escaping and winning with his legs.

Week two, you played that. It was a very, like, static Viking zone, and he just picked it apart. And he showed, like, the ability to be a sort of a precision passer that we weren't quite sure was going to be there. And after that, it was like, okay, this offense can win in any way, any week, and

And Jalen Hertz can sort of play in any way, any week. And like the Jalen Hertz development is so interesting and has made me like rethink a lot of my priors. And he's turned me into like, you know, an intangibles believer, which I might not have been before. And that's probably a problem because there are only so many Jalen Hertz's, like guys wired like that. But he really is like wired in this pathological way where this is what he cares about every single day, getting better. And you hear like the, you know, the. like the Sabinisms that he says day in and day out. And you're like, okay, like, we get it, we get it.

But it really is. And Zach can talk about this more. But like, this is the way that he really approaches his day-to-day. And it matters. And there are other things that like, okay, does it really matter that this is the first time he's playing a second year in an offensive scheme since high school? I mean, I think it turns out that it did matter a little bit. And maybe not as much as the addition of A.J. Brown did.

But all of those things on the margins combined with, like, his ability to really, really get better every year, I think has raised their ceiling. As somebody who has watched it every day, Zach, over the last two years, what do you think? Intangible is a great point. I think that that's something we've learned a lot of these quarterback success stories the last couple of years.

Josh Allen, that's like the quiet thing about why Josh Allen became great. As somebody who's watched this process every single day, what else do you think we don't appreciate enough about how Jay one hurts got from point A to point B? The factors Beau outlined are all applicable, right? the continuity in the offensive scheme. The, obviously, the weapons around him, you're going to be a better passer when you throw to AJ Brown

than when you throw to J.N. Rager, right? That's just the reality of the situation. The triple threat. Yeah, but then I think, too, just the, it can't be overstated how much better he's, how much he's improved and how comfortable he is with the offense. I spoke to Brian Johnson, the quarterbacks coach,

who said, like, Jan 1 Hurts comes back to the sideline with the information. That's exactly what he's supposed to see. And Brian Johnson's total. So in between drives. So here's an example. They had a week 14 win against the Giants where there was a highlight real play there.

A touchdown to Devante Smith down the right sideline on a fourth down. That's an inch away from getting tipped by the safety, too. A terrible play by Julian Love. Maybe that's why he's calling it easy. And the Giants were sending the Blitz at the line, and J.1 Hertz identified the Blitz. R routed Smith's route, and, you know,

it set up a touchdown. Smith made the extraordinary catch, but that factored into it. But then on the drive before, there was, I think it was a second and eight or second and four. But it was a second out past to Zach Pascall. When the Eagles had a look they really liked, but it just didn't materialize, and he knew exactly where to go

at the right moment to move the chain. And it was just a checkdown on the pascal, but the coaches pointed to that. And there was a point earlier this year when Brian Johnson did a television interview leading up to, I think, a Monday night football game, and he was asked about Janeline being a dual-threat quarterback. And Brian was thinking in his head

about the narrative surrounding quarterbacks, and he came back to Janelan, and he said, you're not a dual-threat quarterback. You're a triple-threat quarterback. You beat teams with your arm, you beat teams with your legs, and you beat teams with your mind. And I think you're seeing the mind part of it more this year than ever before. I was talking to, I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast. I was talking to a member of the Eagles coaching staff at one point during the season.

And he was telling me about a moment from practice. There was this nickel corner was just like creeping like a little bit, like one or two steps further than he should. And Jalen saw it and checked into something. And when they were watching the tape back maybe the next day, like why did you do that? And he couldn't articulate why he changed. to play. She's like, I don't know. Like, I just, there's something about the way that he was moving. And it makes it, it's such a good indication and a good example of how articulating

developments of quarterbacks is difficult. Like, sometimes there are these things that you can't put your finger on it, why they're better at X or Y, but they get there. And I think that there are so many aspects of J-1 Hertz's play this year that have kind of exemplified that. And there are, you know, there are so many times when you talk to a coach about quarterback development and it's just like, you have to bank those reps, right? You've got to bank those reps in practice.

you have to bank those reps in a game. And it's still hard to like internalize that and not get ahead of yourselves and, you know, make these judgments. And, you know, I'm guilty of that. We're going to do it a thousand more times. But like that stuff does matter. And, you know, Jalen Hertz has like his bank of reps from, you know, starts in college to now. Like, it makes a huge difference.

And I think you saw that play out this year a little bit. I also think there's a media lesson there too and a fan lesson that oftentimes there's a rush from like day one of a player's career to say you're either for him or again. You were a Hertz guy or you're anti-Hurts guy. But like Jones better now than he was in the playoff game against Tampa Bay last year. He was better at Oklahoma than he was at Alabama. Players can get better and your opinions of them evolve as they progress. Zach Wilson excluded.

Coming into the season, I so desperately wanted to pick the Eagles to win the NFC and go to the Super Bowl. When I was looking at the roster, it felt in so many ways like the 2017 roster after the CJ Gardner-Johnson trade, all of those things. Because you look at it top to bottom, it's like, this team has no personnel weaknesses. The one thing that we were talking about in camp where it was like, I don't know about this position group was safety. And that was before the trade. So I'm sitting there looking at the roster. I was like, I want to believe so much in the rest of what they've built here,

but that Tampa Bay game is just stuck in my brain. I couldn't get over it because I was just imagining them on the road in Tampa Bay or against a really good Dallas defense. And it's what you're talking about, Zach. It's like, that's okay. It's okay to have not believed in Jalen Hertz in that moment. And now he's gotten better and our opinion of him has shifted. So talking about that CJ Gardner-Johnson trade, it's a hard question with this team specifically because they did so much tinkering. But what do you think was the most important move that they made over the last off season? And then if it's one of the big-name guys, which probably should be, what do you think is the quieter move that maybe we don't understand the impact of on the outside looking at? That's a good question. I think the two big moves are

the two big moves that they made, AJ Brown and Hassan Redick. And, you know, Zach and I have argued about like which one matters a little bit more. What's your, what's your take? I go AJ Brown, he goes to Sassan Redick. But I think they're both. It's a really good conversation. Yeah, they're both viable answers. What's your AJ Brown case?

Well, offense matters more. And, you know, he led in some very specific ways to the way that Jillen Hertz needed to develop. You know, passes over the middle of the field, passes down the field. He opened that up. He made, you know, Devante Smith a little bit less of a target for opposing defenses and opened things up for Dallas Goddard. I just, you know, Hassan Redick turned around what was the second worst past rush in the league by Sack rate last year to the best.

So maybe that matters more. But I just, you know, offense matters more. That's why AJ Brown. What's your son Rattacus? The most important thing you do on defense is affect the quarterback. And he affects the quarterback better than anyone they've had in a long time. Like both said, 31st in Sacks last year, first in sacks this year. By like a historical margin almost, 16 and a half, he led the team.

So, yeah, I think now it's like picking your children, right? You love them both. but he is he's played so outstanding this year. I think for the under the radar one, I mean, I would probably say James Bradbury over C.J. Gardner-Johnson. And then part of the confluence of this season for the Eagles has been that not only is the roster so loaded, but they're able to take advantage of the fact that they've been so healthy. You know, Bradbury was coming off of a nagging injury last year.

They've got a bunch of guys who have had nagging injuries and have been able to play all season. All 22 of their starters are going to play in the Super Bowl. but Bradbury, like, making sure that there is no real weakness on the outside opposite Darius Lay. He's been awesome. I'll give Zach credit. Birds with Friends listeners will know that Zach was all over Bradbury and training camp. He's been awesome. And I think that the reason I'm less on Gardner Johnson is he's made some huge splash plays,

but there has still been like a, you know, he's adjusting to a new position. He's not always making the right read at safety, and it's not like the defense got much worse when it was Reed Blankenship in there, Marcus Epson there. They missed some of that playmaking, or Avanti Maddox moved back there. But they missed some of that playmaking ability, but I think Bradbury makes a bigger difference. And then if we're talking like really under the radar, like the midseason Limbaugh-Joseph. That's the one that jumps out to me. It has completely changed their run defense.

They went from, you know, I think like 29th in the league in success rate to like a top 10 and even by some measures like a top five run defense. And Jordan Davis like was fine, but it was more like this was the body type that they needed as opposed that necessarily this player was going to change everything. Are you worried at all about the fact that Linval Joseph in the middle of the season came in and supplanted a guy drafted with the top 15 pick? Yes. Okay.

I was thinking about that today, and I wasn't sure like, yeah, should we really be worried? Is it that big of a deal? But you are a little bit concerned about that long term. Now, this is, again, like, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's not do the Jalen Hurst things and make a final decision on Jordan Davis. But, yeah, I think it matters more from like a team building standpoint. Did you need to trade up for Jordan Davis when you could have probably just signed

Linvall Joseph and let that pick come to you a little bit more. But I know, we'll see how Jordan Davis does. But let me ask you, if you think over the last decade in the league of which players have played best in that role is the run stuffing defensive tackle, wouldn't Linval Joseph be fairly high on that list? Yes, but the Chargers run defense was abysmal last season when he was in the middle of that defense. And that's why him playing as well as he has and being such a fit for them, it makes me want

to go back and just rewatch a bunch of Chargers run fits last year and wonder what the hell was going on. Yeah, I think you'll be the only one doing that. No, Nate will. Nate's already done it. I promise you, if I asked Nate about it right now, I'd be like, oh, yeah, I was watching week eight when they were playing the Broncos and he was doing this and this. I'll always be second to that shit when it comes to this show. So that's the player moves.

I wanted to ask you guys, your perspective is invaluable for stuff like this, especially. Being around every day and just kind of seeing the quieter influence that even people in the building have assistant coaches, guys who are just around. Zach, who do you think has been the guy who's shaped this team in a way that even Eagles fans or people who don't watch this organization every day probably don't appreciate enough? Well, I mean, this seems like an odd answer to say, but I would go with Jeffrey Lurie in that I don't know if he totally gets the credit that he deserves in that there's like

a degree of organizational success that they've had. I mean, you look at the two coaches in this game. He hired both as first time head coach. Right. And I think that there's a consistent, there's like an overall consistency. Now, they've had down years and their down years have been bad. And there are big lessons to learn from those down years. But if you look at the fact that he's hired five coaches now, right, and every one of them made the playoffs within the first two years, I point that out because there are a lot of teams this time of year when we're talking about them hiring coaches. And it's the same teams over and over and over again.

and they can't seem to find success. And I think that there's a chicken or an egg argument, but I think part of it is there's an institutional consistency that is underrated and underappreciated. I would 100% agree. We're talking about it and we're doing it, hopefully something about it later in the week. And the way that I've reframed this

and them getting back in the way that they have with a different coach or different quarterback, it's an organizational victory. Like it's an organizational vision, and I think that it starts at the top, like you mentioned. I don't think a lot of people would think that way, but I think that's exactly right. What would your answer be?

Well, I think it's connected to Jeffrey Lurie and the things that he emphasizes. And so I would say that one thing that we don't get a good sense of from the outside is like the influence of the analytics department and that side of the building under Alec Halliby, who was elevated to assistant GM last year. There has been tension between that side of the building and the coaching staff and the past. I recall. But I think that, like, you have to give Nick Seriani credit for embracing that stuff. He has, you know, he said when he was hired that even though he's an offensive coach, like his gut instinct was to not be so aggressive on fourth down.

This year he's embraced that. And I think part of that's because the offense is so good, like you're always going to have more faith if you're good at it. And, you know, Kalen wrote that great story about the quarterback sneaks being a part of that. But I think, like, because Jeffrey Lurie, like, that is sort of an organizational edict that Siriani has sort of no choice but to embrace that. But I think that stuff matters a lot. And it's like it's this cloak and dagger part of the building.

that we don't get a sense of. And, you know, I don't know that it's informing, you know, like the players on a day-to-day basis, but it's informing the coaching staff and the decisions they make and game planning and stuff like that. So I think that's sort of like the black box that we don't fully know. You bring up Siriani. I was going to ask you about him next.

And I'll admit this. What Julian Love said on TV the other day, I'm guilty of thinking something similar, where Brian Dable was my coach of the year, and I think that part of that is colored by the lack of talent that the Giants had on the roster. And because the Eagles are so loaded, I think it's difficult to extricate the impact of the coach

from the impact of the talent that he had on the team. What do you think we don't appreciate enough about the coaching job that Nick Siriani has done this season? What a tease for the story that's going up on the athletic tomorrow. There we go. Look at that. Nick Siriani. I mean, this team outperformed their preseason win expectation more than any other team to leave.

Yes, that's kind of what I mean. And they did last year too. I understand that I fuck up in this way. I think that like you know, Jason Kelsey talked about this the other day, that the atmosphere that a coach sets in the building matters so much more than any decision on game day, you know, any third down call or anything like that, that this team comes into the building every day with an emphasis on getting better and being committed to that. And, you know, Siriani has these five tent pole staples, right?

And it starts with Connect. And that sounds like so hokey, like, oh, you want your team to be tight. But the guys in locker room say, like, that stuff does matter. And it's not just like, okay, let's go, like, you know, go bowling together. or something like that. It's how do we build that trust with each other? How do I make you a player needs to know that you're going to make him better in some way. And that is their that is their like fundamental philosophy. And from there you build the trust that you can call people out. You know, Zach has written about they have these meetings where like it's it's accountability accountability.

You show a play from practice and somebody who made a mistake is up on the board, whether that's a player or a coach for not teaching something correctly. And that sort of filters down to everything that they do in the building. I also think that like from a from an offensive standpoint, we don't give Siriani enough credit because Shane Steichen's calling the plays on game day and Jeff Stoutland is designing the run game. But from a game planning perspective, that's that's Siriani's baby. And he's talked about like his favorite part of the job is putting together that game plan on Tuesday. It's still his offense. It's still his menu that Shane Stuyken is calling plays from. So I think that's one thing he maybe doesn't get enough credit for. But I think just like the big Syriani thing is the overall philosophy

and the feeling in the building is something that he has very much created. The menu is such a good point. Go ahead. Go ahead, Zach. No, I would just also add situationally. They are so sharp situationally. And it's not something that you often, you know, we kind of glorify great play callers or, you know, the emotional aspect of it.

But the way they are in end of half situations, the way they are coming out of the half, the way they are managing leads, the way they, you know, you saw Devante Smith the other day when they rushed to the line on a play that wasn't a catch, but it was more catch, right? They prep that. And my guess is that if you asked Nick Siriani about any situation in the league in the previous week, he would know what happened and what decision he would make in that spot.

He has these meetings, and Zach, I think, is writing about this, where, like, once or twice a week, it's just he's, like, firing random situations at coaches and, like, what do you do in this situation? What do you call in this situation? And they try to bank, like, we're talking about banking reps. They try to go through that process. Using the word menu, I think is so apt. And we talked about this this summer where their goal on offense was to be able to shape shift into whatever they wanted to be.

And I think in terms of planning and realization, that is the most fully realized goal of the 2022 Eagles, in my opinion, is that they can walk into any single game and be anything they want to be on that side of the ball. And I think that Nick Siriani deserves a lot of credit for that. I think that's exactly right. And I think you're right. That is what they wanted. And it's crazy to see that it was able to be accomplished so seamlessly. The other big personality involved with this Eagles organization and kind of the guy who kind of shift the way we talk about him

after this game is Howie Roseman. Zach, five years ago, it was the How We Fuck You Tour, right? So he comes back after being banished to the other side of the building. He builds this bully. They win the Super Bowl. I will never forget watching him in the locker room after that game, eating like an uncrustable sandwich because he knew he was about to imbibe a lot of alcohol over the next few hours.

And deservedly so. Like when you consider what had happened with, Chip Kelly and everything like that. This is different. He already did it. He already went on his little victory lap tour. So what is at stake for Howie Roseman now, in your opinion, with this game? Well, I mean, what's at stake is he'll be considered one of the best GMs in a long time. If he has two Super Bowls on his resume and he's done it, building a team multiple times.

He's had the luxury of longevity, right? He's worked with four head coaches, which you don't often see. It's a unique career, to say the least, for Howie. But he's earned the situation that he's in now. And something that I kind of harp on is that I think he's better at building rosters than he is at maintaining rosters. And when you look at what he's done from 2021, from the end of the 2020 season to now, unbelievable. Yeah, and he's built that.

And when you looked at what he did from 2016, to the Super Bowl year. He built that, or he helped build that as well. So I think there's different muscles, different skills, there's different disciplines required at times when you're building as opposed to maintaining. And I think like the big Howie Roseman, like strength, like his superpower relative to other GMs,

is that he wants to be involved in everything. He's talked about like the thing that keeps him up at night is the idea that somewhere out there in the league there's someone who might be available and he doesn't yet know about it, right? And last offseason... Sure, his wife loves that. Right.

And last off season was an exercise and flexibility because they went into that offseason. If Russell Wilson had wanted to be in Philadelphia, he probably would have been in Philadelphia. If Deshawn Watson wanted to be in Philadelphia, he probably would have been in Philadelphia. Their free agency plan was Alan Robinson, and at the last second, he got a better offer from the Rams.

They tried to be involved in Christian Kirk. But they didn't go over what their set number was, and they played the waiting game, and all of a sudden, AJ Brown becomes available, and they can trade for him. And all of a sudden, you know, they don't have a cornerback to on the roster. James Bradbury gets released. They've set aside the money for that rainy day, and they make that happen. They go get C.J. Gardner-Johnson.

And I think that is like his superpower is making sure that whatever is going on in the league, he is involved in some matter. And it's creating pivot points for your team. And he's done that in a way that really no one else has done that. And the J-1-Herts one is one of the most prominent, right? even picking J1 Hertz, nine months after giving Carson once that deal? Right? 10 months?

I was reading our trade grades last night, Zach, or our draft night grades on Jalen Hertz. I think he was the nice one. He gave it a D-plus. It was 10 months, wasn't it? It was less than a year. It was less than a calendar year after giving Carson once that extension.

The contract hadn't started yet. Yes. They drafted J-1-Hertz. And I think so few organizations and so few general managers would be willing to do that because think about the shit that he ate after doing it.

well it's also like you know obviously he was right because jillen herds had this upside that we didn't know about he also like the calculation of how is this going to fit in the locker room they were wrong about that sure it did create an issue in the locker room i think that to me though is a sink or swim thing that's like a survival of the fittest thing if it's not going to work out then who cares i think that's a good point yeah that's that's probably a good point and you know you know Carson wents at that point, the questions were more about health than is he going to like really drop off as a player. It turned out that sort of both things happened. But like you could tell, I mean, we weren't even in the locker room that year. But like the people who came in with Jalen Hertz that that 20, 20 season,

they could tell that he was wired in a different way. And they've talked about it like looking back that like, you know, he was taking it upon himself to do extra work. Like he had this this way that he's wired that was different than Carson Wentz. He's a different personality in the locker room. That offseason also they had gotten rid of Malcolm Jenkins, if you remember. And so it was like, the messaging was we want to, we want to turn the locker room over to Carson Wentz and let him become a leader. And the judge of the quarterback in the second round. Instead, the 21-year-old took over. I'll say, I was wrong on the pick. And in terms of the valuation, if you believe in that position, there's too few good quarterbacks in this league, and it's too valuable that if you have conviction

on the player and the person, take them. And I wouldn't have said that back in 2020. But if the Eagles could have, if they could have Jeremy Chin right now, or they could have Jaywin Hertz, they would obviously take Jayhwin Hertz. And so it was a lesson for me that at that position, if you have conviction, you know, you take them and then you figure out the rest. And by the way, this is my 11th year covering the Eagles. In 10 of those 11 years, including this year, the starting quarterback's been injured.

So you better have that backup positions in a good spot. If only Clayton Thorson had worked out the year before, we would have never had Jalen Hertz. This isn't a one-time thing either. Remember in 2016, they go out, they have San Bradford already, they sign Chase Daniel to that deal, they just signed San Bradford to an extension in March,

and then they trade up for Carson Wentz. And when that happened, I was like, what the hell are they doing? They have three guys who they're devoting real resources to a quarterback, and Howie's kind of mantra on this is kind of like, they're valuable. We'll figure it out. Well, you know what's funny? I wrote a story about that process that the Eagles, that Howie Roseman had going up from 13 to 2 to get Carson Wentz. And what was so interesting is that he said, so this was, as you mentioned before, this is him coming back into power after Chip Kelly leaves. And he said that he was dedicated to getting a young franchise quarterback. He didn't care who it was. It was almost like scouting report agnostic. I just need a guy. And so, you know, he went up and got Carson Wentz. And if the Rams had drafted Wentz first and Goff had been.

in there, that's who he would have drafted. It was just interesting. That was what he wanted. He wanted a young franchise quarterback. And I think he learned that. That was one of the lessons from his first time in charge. But think about how mirro the situations are. They go out, they get Carson Wentz, and then they have all these quarterbacks on the roster. It's like, what are we going to do now? Well, Teddy Bridgewater gets hurt. They get a first round pick for San Briford. It becomes Derek Barnett. Like, it's not a huge coup. But the fact that they got this first round pick for an afterthought quarterback was a huge deal. Then, five years later, four years later, they draft Jaylen Hertz. And

this quarterback that they don't want anymore is worth a first round pick. The idea that we're going to try to get all these guys and all these dice rolls of the position because they're inherently valuable and if we have an excess we can get something for them, it's happened twice. The only thing that I would take issue with is that I think if Carson Wentz had wanted to stay in Philadelphia when Nick Siriana came in, he would have stayed in Philadelphia. I think it was a little bit of Carson Wentz wanting out and maybe that's the way that they spun it. But I think like that could have led to an even crazier 2021 season.

Before we get out of here, one more bit of just an Eagles history lesson. Obviously, the Andy Reid part of this. I wanted to do something on the show or it was like the overdone narrative you secretly love. This is this. Like, I secretly love the Andy Reid going back to Philadelphia thing and just every aspect of that. Zach, you were there for that last year in Philly. Just walk me through what the relationship to this game is for Eagles fans, for people who watch the Andy Reid era. Like, how tangled is this for people who were close to it?

Well, I think it ties into the first question, the question we started this podcast with. If the Eagles did not win, it would be much more complicated. Because Andy Reid had so much success over 14 years. But the big thing was he did not win a Super Bowl. You know, they were in, what, five NFC championship games in 14 years. They were in the Super Bowl, but they could not win the Super Bowl. And that was ultimately, I don't want to say that was his legacy here because he's won so many games. It was, though.

But that's often how he's remembered. So the fact that the Eagles won and the fact that Andy Reid won kind of uncomplicated the, that storyline. But it's hard to be in the building and not see remnants of the Andy Reid era. I mean, literally in the locker room, Jason Kelsey and Brandon Graham, Fletcher Cox, were brought in by Andy Reid. Howie Roseman was the GM under Andy Reid. The most, like the biggest thing Jeffrey Lower did before win the Super Bowl was hire Andy Reed. So Andy Reid very much is part of the fabric of Philadelphia. And I'm thinking back to, you know, so I worked for the team back in 2012.

And I'm thinking back to the day that Andy Reid was fired. And it was, you know, much more ceremonial firing. Yeah. Andy Reid, like, comes into the cafeteria. Jeffrey Lurie, like, delivers him a game ball and is like, you know, thanks him for his service. And Andy Reid just says, hail to the Eagles, baby, which I always remembered as I didn't understand that. That's why he said that. And we like to joke about hail to the Eagles.

the Eagles baby. But like you wouldn't see that with a normal coach firing, right? And it was very much a love affair. It was like this very amicable divorce. And I think the fact that they both went on to win is interesting. And then I also think back to Andy Reid then goes to Kansas City and one of the first things he does is let Nick Siriani go as the wide receivers coach. That's really funny. It all comes back. I also have to imagine that the Eagles winning changes the affections that Eagles fans have for Andy Reed, right? I mean it just this would feel much different

from their side of it if they had no. already won. Oh yeah. If this was both of them going for their first, it would be much more antagonistic. Well, I'm glad that there are good feelings all around, just like there are at this table right now. Gentlemen, really, really appreciate the time. Always great to chat with both of you. Let's have a great week. Thanks for having us. Absolutely.

I am thrilled now to welcome our Chiefs Riter at the Athletic, my long-time friend. Hey, Taylor. How you doing buddy? I am great, man. We're doing this a lot. We're back, man. We're back. Last year is just like a weird off year, but now the Chiefs are back in the Super Bowl.

I do want to talk about that, but I want to start by going back to the beginning of this season. Okay? So I was talking with Bo and Zach about the chat that I had with Bo during training camp. Oh, okay. I don't go to Chiefs Training Camp as part of my training camp tour for multiple reasons, but mostly it's very remote and it's very hard to get anywhere else. So you and I did not talk before training camp. What were your feelings about this team heading into the season and your expectations for them?

Be honest. Yeah, I love this question. And just for context, like it takes me an hour and a half to get from Kansas City to where they are. Yes. Which is usually like St. Joseph, Missouri. It's a two hour every day, got to drive up and down, got to see what's going on with the team. My interpretation was that, okay, this is a transition year. Like, this is a year where-

I think that's a fair representation. Where it's like, okay, I know the chargers are probably the dazzling pick, the shiny pick in the division. I sort of said, hey, like, you know, Khalil Mack, that's a real, it's a real dude. All right, J.C. Jackson, that's a real dude. They have a bunch of rookies. And so a lot of training camp for me was about just rookie report, obviously seeing how Mahomes is going to operate with these new receivers, Judith Smith-Schuster, Marquess-S Scanlon.

You know, it was fun to watch Travis Kelsey every day, but it's like he can't just throw it to him every game from here moving forward. And there was a love affair with Isaiah Pachepache. echo. And so I did a feature on him pretty early and I said, okay, there might be something there. I can sort of see what the scouts saw. I can sort of understand what the coaching staff is trying to tell me and trying to get him to understand. But I just thought, man, this is a transitional year. Yeah, 10 and 7, that would be an accomplishment. Hey, getting to the postseason. Major ups. Hey, like if you win the division, that will be really a tale of how great Andy Reed and Patrick

Mahomes are and having really consistency in terms of the coaching staff, right? Steve Spagnolo, been there a long time. Eric Beenemy's been the Office of Coordinator since Mahomes has been the starter in 18. I think in our predictions, I think I said like 11 and 6 or 12 and 5, and I just said, hey, like, it'll be either between them and the Chargers to win the division. But like it's a transitional year. Like just help these rookies, these newcomers get an idea of what it's like to play on a contending team.

And then 2023 will be the real like loaded up. All right, now they're ready to go for. for another Super Bowl. And here we are. Yep. And now that the Chief's logo is back on every single thing that we're looking at, every banner in this entire fucking city.

You talk about the rookies on defense. You talk about the new pass catchers. What were you most worried about depressing their ceiling a little bit? Mark Wes Valded Scantlin was basically their replacement for Tyree Kill. They signed him or he agreed to join the team the day after they traded Tyree Kill. And you're like, okay, Andy Reid always wants a speed guy. MVS is a speed guy but can they have the explosive plays

down field consistently? You know Mahomes is going to extend the pocket you know he's going to do wild stuff you know out of the framework or the structure of the play but it was just like can they get chunk plays consistently when it doesn't involve Travis Kelsey and then on the defense is can they

cover anybody? Like hey Juan Thornton Hill like quality player Justin Reed comes over he's from the Houston Texans like okay I can kind of see what they want, interchangeable safeties, but like you wouldn't put them at the top two, top ten tandums of, you know, safety looks. They were leaning heavily on these, you know, young players in Nick Bolton and Willie Gay.

The coaching staff was basically like, we need Chris Jones to be like all world. And so you're like, check. Like, uh. So he did that pretty clearly. And then it's like, okay, well, can Frank Kark bounce back? Can Carlos Dunlap still have enough in year 13? can George Carl Off just be competent, serviceable as a rookie pass rusher, which is hard to do when you're not picked in the top 10, right?

Yes. Like when you're picked at 30 to be a starting pass rusher, you're like, that's asking a lot. Very rarely do those guys hit the ground running. Think about the guy I would compare that to is the guy that the Ravens essentially took with the Orlando Brown pick away the year before. Even if there are flashes, that guy's not going to be somebody who's affecting the game consistently. So who were there playmakers outside of Chris Jones?

and, you know, again, Ken Frank Clark hold up for an entire season. And then you get to the cornerbacks and you're like, well, LaGrius Snee is really good. You were an early Legerius Snee guy. I loved. I loved LaGrius Steed guy. You were a very early Legerius Sneed guy. You deserve a lot of credit for that. LaGuardia Steve is really good. Yes. Other teams have three receivers, though.

He can't cover everybody. So Trent McDuffie was their first pick in the draft and you thought, okay, like, he's got the footwork, he's got the fluidness. He can operate in Manon's zone. okay, you know, they were surprised that he even failed to them in the draft. And then you just say like, man, Spag's, Steve Spagnol is going to have to blitz and do some weird stuff and some funky stuff

and just hope you get some turnovers. But I thought this defense was going to be like, again, a lot of Chiefs fans are like, can you just be average? Because the offense is going to be top ten as long as Mahomes is obviously effective, you know, playing most games. But my early thought was, man,

And this team is, this is fascinating because it's so many established guys, but it's so many young guys. And it's like, you know, can you have the perfect blend of youth and experience? Or is that going to be sort of a thing that sort of fractures? You know, are there silos between the two sort of groups? But they figured it out really, really quickly. When do you think you really understood that they had hit something with this construction of the team? And your expectations for them might have even been a little low? So I'll walk people through this

I knew they were going to beat the Cardinals on opening day. Andy Reed does not lose on opening day. Like that just doesn't happy. He sounds like six months to get ready. Yeah, I felt bad for Cliff Keyesbury because I'm like, like they're going to come here

and they're going to wipe the floor and like, you know, you knew Mahomes in Camp was very motivated by the fact that like, well, what are you going to do without Tyree Keel? Like, how's it going to look? How's it going to feel? Like, I don't know if it's going to work

with Juju Smith-Schuster or Mark was all that Scanlan. I was not worried about week one. I knew he was going to be motivated. they were going to have an excellent game plan. They were going to win that game. The issue was the schedule said, well, in four days, you have to play the Chargers

who are also probably going to win their first game. That happened. And I just thought like, man, well, this is a real early test for this team. And then Jalen Watson, their seventh round pick at the game winning interception and did a pretty good job on Mike Williams, of all people. And I said, like, okay, if that's a seventh round pick and they've coached him to be, you know,

an equal player to a guy that is really high. in the receiving position skill set, okay. And then it's just they don't make a ton of mistakes. I think that's the thing that the coaching staff really had the rookies prepared for. Like they don't make a ton of mistakes. They were actually pretty good in terms of not giving up the explosive play on defense, letting people have to go down the field, you know, having them have to matriculate down the field. And then I just thought like, okay, how good is Mahomes going to be?

You know, how good can he do it in a four-day, turn around with Khalil Mack and Joy Bosa chasing him. And he was excellent. He was excellent the second half. To the point that they're running out and up routes to Justin Watson, who is the fifth receiver, six receivers. And he's burning and J.C. Jackson in the process. And I was just like, oh, okay.

Well, they're, okay, they won that game. They're two and oh, and it's like, okay, they might be better than even I anticipated and then a lot of people anticipated. And then you just saw little by little, my home was in the pocket. Just the best. Yeah. Mahomes extending plays. The best.

Mahomes in like avid, you know, not avidageous situations, third and long. They're still the best offense in the league. And you just sit there and I felt bad for Tom Brady when they played the Buccaneers in like October in a Sunday night game. And they just went right down the field. And I was like, but this was the same team that like sort of showed everybody how to defend them. And now they're, now they've graduated to another level of like, you think you want to take this away, we're going to do this. And they could run the ball better now this time than a year ago.

Obviously, part of that is Isaiah Pacheco. But they got more production out of the rookies faster than I think they anticipated. And then that production mostly remains stable and it just kept growing. So when you have a coaching staff and a scouting department that can say, look, these guys are worth it. We just need you to help bring them along as a veteran, whether it's Kelsey, whether it's, you know, Chris Jones, Frank Clark, obviously Patrick Mahomes. And then those guys see the rookies produce in the first month of the season. Now there's real bonds, there's real relationships,

and now it's coaches and players saying like, okay, we can do something with these young guys. It's just a matter of can they do it consistently over a 17-game season. And that proved to be the case. They lost to the Bills in a close game. They lost to the Meele's in a close game. but they've been pretty much a sure-fire contender since they beat the Buccaneers in early October.

The defensive backs specifically, the young guys, what is the secret sauce that this team seems to have in being able to kind of cobble together this defensive backroom every single season? Because in previous years, it wasn't, sometimes it's their own homegrown guys like Ligerius Sneed. Or Traveris War was undrafted, and they've been able to really do that.

But whether it's it, Mike Hughes or somebody like that where they're getting these guys off the scrap heap. And somehow by the end of the season, they're getting, and they're 31st in secondary spending this season. Crazy. I talked on the show about the show with Nate today. Against the cap combined, their five starting secondary guys in Nickel make less against the cap than Jimmy Ward and Jesse Bates individually.

And that's what they did this year. What is it about- And Jesse Bates was on the franchise tag for just one year? One year. So one guy. On the franchise tag. So whether it's Dave Merritt, Steve Spagnola, what is it about their ability to somehow get more than the sum of the parts from that position group specifically?

Well, that's how Spagnola came up in coaching, right? Was as a DB coach with Andy Reed, with obviously the Baltimore Ravens at a certain point in time. Dave Merritt deserves a ton of credit. He called the five rookies a basically drafted for the secondary of the Faf Five. Spoiler alert, none of those kids knew what the FF5 meant. That's how old we're getting. Dave Merritt looked at me as like,

They didn't know what, they didn't even get the reference. And I was like, but Dave, they don't know who Jalen Rose is? Yeah, they had to Google. There's a guy named Jalen on the team. And I guarantee you he wouldn't be named Jalen if it weren't for Jalen Rose. Well, you know, these youngans, I tell you. But no, they've done a really good job of, obviously they have a type, which is usually above six foot long arms.

Like the Richard Sermon, like, hey, like, you know, there's one way of going about this. They want to press people. They want to get up in people's faces. We don't want to make you comfortable, right? So even for someone like Ligerious Sneed who has graduated to now kind of being their shadow guy, it's like, well, all right, well, you can go take DK Metcalf on, even though he's physically tough and hard to jam at the line of scrimmys. Like, we're going to ask you to do that.

They want to make the offense uncomfortable, which means tight window throws. And really, a lot of quarterbacks like to throw the 50-50 ball because it, I mean, all the rules are in the advantage of the offense, right, between pass interference. obviously guys can adjust the ball a little bit better on offense, but the Chiefs are not afraid of that. So what you see is Trent McDuffie is kind of the outlier, but his footwork is so good. His cover skills are pretty pristine for a rookie,

and they put him on Jamar Chase in the AFC Championship game, and he didn't get cooked to wear the Bengals, and I'm sure you saw this on tape, the Bengals of the second half are like, yeah, we don't want to mess with him anymore. Like we would like to try Joshua Williams now, a fourth round pick from a division two program. And the chiefs are like, great.

It's still going to be pressed. It's still going to be, you know, man up. You know, they're going to have a little bit of a different look from the safeties because the safety's changed so much down to down. But honestly, it's just an idea of like, we're going to teach you how to press. We're going to teach you to trust that Chris Jones is going to be impactful. So it's not like you're covering guys for four seconds. It's like do the best you can for two seconds and then try to locate the ball.

one of my small criticisms were is that they didn't really teach the rookies how to catch the ball there's some interceptions that you know taking the ball away is important Robert they don't really emphasize that that's the one downside

but whether it's Jalen Watson it's just like hey get your hands on them they started adding more zone coverages as a season went along so now they're they have a real mix and match but they're like tall guys they like speed guys they're like guys who are not afraid and that's the best about this defense, especially in the rematch against the

Vingles, was, hey, every now and then T. Higgins is going to mosh you. Yeah, because he's amazing. And they're like, okay, Brian Cook, who's a, you know, second round safety, who is also a rookie, doesn't get beat on the same, essentially the same route with Joshua Williams and, you know, T. Higgins' hips. So they're not afraid, and I think it's one of the fascinating matchups about this game is because you can make an argument that T. Higgins and Jemar Chase are better,

than A.J. Brown and at least at the same level, they're in the same conversation. And they weren't, it wasn't a, it wasn't just a major disadvantage for the defense. And so if that plays over into this game, it helps perhaps the chiefs immensely because they're just relying on rookies who are coachable, unafraid. You know, Trip McDuffie told us last week, and this will be in a story that will come out later in the athletic, but that they were doing their own study hall, basically, that they were going to each other's house in OTAs and saying, like, how would you do this?

what does the terminology that you understand, how did it work for you in college, and then they've really kept that on. So it's part coaching, but it's part their own sort of makeup to where sometimes you can look at it a different way. You're like, man, if we draft too many players at the same position, they're going to worry about time and, you know, who's getting the snaps and, you know, how do I impress the coaching staff?

Well, for whatever reason, they found the right guys from a makeup that said that they're all going to work together so that they can all succeed together. And if football is the ultimate team sport, they've done it again with these with these rookies at the cornerback position understanding that they were going to get the majority of the reps they were so good so early robert they traded rachat fitton their most their most experienced cornerback at the trade deadline they gave rashat fitton to the atlanta falcons for basically a bag of balls

because they were like we can just do this all the time like we were we drafted rasha fitting in the sixth round he helped us win the super bowl and 54 against the 49ers we just trade him away because we just drafted three rookies who were perhaps even better than he was when he was a rookie. So they've exceeded all expectations, but I'm glad that you mentioned that because what they've done in the secondary, considering that Jesse Bates, who is very good

and, you know, deserve the franchise to act because the bingles are the bingles, it's just like, wow, they are, they have found a way under Mahomes' contract, under Kelsey's contract, under Chris Jones's contract, to still have competent starters at really important positions. You said, early in this conversation, I think that's exactly right,

that this season was going to be a test of the influence that Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid could have. What putting more on their plate could do is you skimped elsewhere and rebuilt elsewhere. And I think that we've seen the fullest realization of that plan. I wanted to ask you, three guys, Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid, Chris Jones. Of those three guys, your opinion of those three,

which has changed the most between August 1st and right now. Chris Jones. I knew Chris Jones was their best player when the season started on defense. Like that was just a given. It was just a matter of could he reach another level? Yeah. And he really did.

He was my defense player of the year. I heard. And I was like, look at this guy. That takes his agent's so good by the way. Look at this guy. That was before the championship game. Now he had not had a postseason sack. Before the championship game, he has two.

Obviously the game that, you know, the sack that really ends the Bingle season, you could argue. He also had eight pressures in that game. He played pretty well. He played inside and outside. It's nuts what he can do. My opinion of him has really changed because you knew he was a good player. Pro Bowl level, but could he get to like all pro?

Obviously defensive player of the year level. I don't know. I was doubtful. I was like, look, man, they're just going to double team you. And they should. And they did. And it didn't really that matter that much. And it didn't matter.

That's the thing. So for Andy Reed, I understood, like I would talk to Pat And he would say like, well, you know, Nate, he won with Donovan McNabb. Yeah. Alex Smith. Do you want me to keep going? I was like, no, you don't have to keep going with the list. I understand, Patrick.

I don't doubt Andy Reid. You know, I understand that he has these hard training camps. He's like grueling training camps in the hot summer in Kansas City when it's basically a furnace. Or basically in St. Joseph, Missouri. So it's like. It's disgusting. So again, like. Missouri in the summer.

They're beating the Cardinals because they're going to be the more conditioned team. He's going to put them through a ton of scenarios that are game-like. So nothing should seem super duper foreign to them on opening day. It's just how do you manage them over the course of the season? Obviously, I'm not downing Patrick Mahos because it's just like, okay, I understand like Tyreek Hill is not on the team. I understand that there are times where Tom Brady didn't have Randy Maltz and he was just fine. So I'm glad you made that comparison because that's kind of what this is starting to feel like. Where the only real comparison you can make about the consistency of a team being in this

game and kind of the unrelenting greatness that you start to get beat over the head with is what the Patriots felt like. And I think at times over the last decade, so I started doing this full time really in like 2011. Okay. So the Patriots went to the Super Bowl in 2011. They went to the Super Bowl in 2014. They went to the Super Bowl in 2016.

They went to do every single year. Every other year. And that's now what this is starting to feel like. And I think it becomes difficult to kind of understand the nuances of how to appreciate these guys in a different way. Like, natural homes is just great. Tom Brady is just great. Right.

So what about Patrick Mahomes do you maybe understand a little bit differently now than you did coming into this season? So in the past, and he's acknowledged this, in the past, hey, I got a one-on-one with Tyreek. I don't need to do anything else. It's not a bad strategy. I might tell, hey, make the pre-check. All right, everybody good? Everybody good?

All right, I got my one-on-one. I got my match-up and I'm going to go. Well, now that's not there. and he's just become a more sophisticated quarterback. The stat to me, Robert, that blew my mind, because I started tracking it towards the middle of the season when, again, we realized, hey, they're really good. They might be in the Super Bowl.

He stopped taking sacks. Hey, this doesn't do it. It's insane. He just chose not to do it anymore. There would be moments where I would stop all 22 and be like, how was... He got out of this? Like, what?

You know, I'm climbing in the pocket, and I'm throwing a 41-yard strike, too, again, Justin Watson, my fifth receiver for a touchdown. Hey, there's a times where, you know, every left tackle gets beat, okay? When Orlando Brown gets beat, it gets beat. It's bad. It's bad, you know. He does not die as slow death.

So Orlando Brown gets beat, and you stop the tape and you go, oh, it's going to be tough. And it's like, oh, you're just scrambling around. And then he'll do, like, one of these to Jerich McKinnon and it's a touchdown? Like, what? That's supposed to be a sack. it's the amount of negative plays that he actually influences and manipulates. That's where he actually has grown, I think, within the, obviously, the structure of the offense, right?

I mean, he's now got two guys, and I know Juju hasn't been as effective in the second half of the year, but early on it was just like, okay, like Kelsey's over here, Juju, seven yards, totally fine with that. That's the thing that you talked about, the finding explosive plays, and coming into the season, that was my thought, too. It's like, all right, they have MVS, now they have a field stretcher,

they'll still be able to do this. they led the league in 20 plus yard completions, but he averaged like 7.6 air yards per time. It was like 20th in the league. Yeah, it's not a ton. He is the way. They would get explosive plays out of screens. That's, but that's what they started doing.

Their ability to kind of create explosive plays playing within a certain confined space was wild to watch. Like stylistically, how much they've shed. And really started last year, obviously, right? As they started putting a cap on things. But now you have, Tyreek was still a big part of that because you have a horizontal speed where you could get the ball in his hands

and there were a lot of yak. So now you remove that and you have these guys who just built a little bit differently. Like MVS is a speed guy, but he's not a yak guy. No, how are you gonna create? He's not even a 50-50 ball guy.

No, it's just, and that's why sometimes when I think about the offense and sometimes when I try to like wrap my arms around it, I'm like, this doesn't really make sense. Like the fact that they were one of the most, the 10 most efficient offenses of the last decade with this personnel,

That's why I ask, like, how is our opinion and thought about Patrick Mahomes change? Because that's how mine has. It's like the virtue of this guy's presence and a guy like Travis Kelsey is enough to give you one of the best offenses of the last 10 years. That's insane. With the offensive line that is arguably one of the best in the league, right? You know, Orlando Brown has done really well. He's a pro bowler, but they have Creed Humphrey, you know, maybe the second best center in the league behind Jason Kelsey. they drafted in the sixth round and got Trey Smith, who was really an all-American at Tennessee.

But injuries. You know, injuries is the reason he fell on the draft. He's been. Three million dollars against the cap combined for those two guys, by the way. He's been as durable as you could ask an offensive line to be between Creed Humphrey and Tray Smith. And then, of course, they really acquired Joe Tooney for the fact of like, well, you're just the best left guard in terms of pass protection. Only just put you right here. But no, it's a great point because, Robert, I think I know you, I'm.

I'm sure you guys talked about this, but they were in LA on that Sunday night. I believe they had Jody Fortin, who was a tight-in, who they, you know, a hybrid receiver that they basically. He's sort of a tight end. That they converted to a tight-in. But basically. He goes in jet motion, he wears 88.

Yeah, he's kind of a tight end. And this is the play I'm talking about. He goes in jet motion on a swing route, on a wheel route, basically, and he throws an absolute time. And you're like, what other offense is doing this? and it's just like, I don't know. You mentioning the Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith thing, along with the rookie DBs, though, I think is important

because it brings me to another comparison to the Patriots where every year you've got this slightly tweaked version of the roster where you find value here and you find value there. And Patrick Mahomes, rightfully, is going to suck up so much oxygen as to why this team is successful. He's about to win a second MVP in five years. He's the best player in the league. Andy Reid is fantastic at what he does.

But I don't know if we give enough credit to Brett Veach and the ways that this team has kind of consciously built itself in this new iteration. Because while Patrick Mahomes can make up for a lot of the ills you would have in other areas, they've done a fantastic job of finding value in those really important places, the secondary, the offensive line, all these different spots where because you're paying Patrick Mahomes 35 million, because you're paying Chris Jones 23 million, because you're paying Travis Kelsey, you need to find some coins in the couch cushions, and they have done a very good job of doing that. They consider every draft class we cannot miss. Yeah.

We cannot miss anymore. Because that's where you are now. Yes. Yeah, that is exactly where you are now. And so obviously I heard Brendan Bean's comments, and I was like, well, you're not wrong. But I also know that the chiefs look at it is we can't, like our draft allocation, which is part of the Tyree kill trade, right? We need to actually get more picks so that we can have more chances to obviously develop younger players on obviously controlled contracts. That calculus is what's in my brain as I say this.

Is that plan coming together in the way that it did? It's wild. I mean, they got Brian Cook and basically Trent McDuffie from that trade. When you really look at it and the fact that the Patriots are like, you want to trade? And they're like, sure. And we'll just get Trent McDuffie and Brian Cook. We're going to play in the Super Bowl. But they look at it as they can't miss anymore because, you know, whether it's,

what the Patriots did, Robert, or whether it's what the cult used to do, right? Hey, we have Andrew Luck, but for whatever reason, like, you look at those draft classes, it's not pretty. They've gotten Willie Gay in the second round. He's a starting linebacker. Next year, they got Nick Bolton second round. Same position at linebacker. So they've really tried to figure out a way of how can we get our scouts to understand

that these players are both coachable and they're athletically gifted to where you can get their production and at obviously a reduced cost compared to, obviously, going after free agents. It's hard, I think, for Chiefs fans to realize because they're like, well, we have Mahomes. Like, we should just be a destination, like, just come to Kansas City. And it's like, that's not how it works. It's a secondary thing. The first thing, money talks is the first thing. Yes.

And it's because you have to get those sort of mid-tier veterans who can obviously fill in roles at certain positions. But really, it comes down to the draft. I mean, they obviously moved 17 spots. go from 27 to 10 to get Patrick Mahomes right. And one of the best things about that is now it sort of convinces Clark Hunt, the team owner, that we have to do this every year. We have to be flexible. We have to be really consistent.

And now as we get to the second phase, we've got to build players who not only appreciate what Patrick Mahomes can do, but are now going to be motivated and are going to see his work ethic and going to be inspired to do similar things. So it's one thing if you get 10 rookies and your quarterback's. It's not Patrick Mahomes. It's another thing when you draft 10 guys and they look at Patrick Mahomes every day, Chris Jones, Frank Clark, Travis Kelsey, and you're like, now they've set the example and now you can get on this sort of second phase because those players...

Do they use that phrase? Or is that something that you just say? I'm curious. I don't think they've said it publicly. Okay. But privately, when you talk to them, they think of it that way. Yes. Yeah.

I mean, they have found another way. way to remain competitive despite the fact that like, like you said, they have to draft well now. Like there's, I think the way Brett Veach looks at it, the general manager is there's no excuses. Like if we aren't giving him the best, then what are we doing? If we're not giving Chris Jones another added additional player in George Carloptus and telling Chris, hey, you're still going to be the star, you're still going to be where all of this sort of revolves around, but you need to do your job to help groom and develop George Carlophthus. And then in the second half of the season, he basically takes off and starts becoming an actual effective pass rusher.

The players and the coaches and the executives have found a way to all see what the other part is doing. The last thing I wanted to ask you, just like a little inside baseball question. So last year they convert Mahomes' I think roster bonus to a signing bonus. They clear a ton of cap space. This year they choose not to do that. Which surprised me. So I was wondering, why do you think that they do you think that they, didn't do that this year. Do you think it's going to be an every other year thing?

Like, how do you think they're conceiving of the ways that they can weaponize the length of that contract to their advantage? I think it might become an every other year thing now because what I was trying to report and trying to understand was like, it's right there. It's right in front of you. Like, just... I was also a little bit surprised when they didn't do it, but I also think it might speak to how they saw the season, right? Where they also maybe think this is a little bit of a transition year. If we can only pull this lever so often, do we save it for next year when maybe the roster is a little bit more fully realized?

And then they're here. When teams try to tell you who they are, you should listen to them. Yes. And I think that they tried to tell us that maybe this wasn't a Super Bowl team. They got to the deal with Super Bowl. And they're here we got. It's stunning. 15 is pretty good.

It's really stunning. Yeah. The thing about last offseason was just like, okay, if they're going to not use that, then yeah, then it even gets maybe more effective next year because the cap will be a little bit more expensive. And Clark Con, I'm sure, is... He knows. He's a little bit mindful of his wallet.

Yeah, he knows. Like, it's like when you're... When you cut that check, it's a real check. Yes, it is a real check in the cash you spend every year. So it's, I believe they were 21st in cash spending this season, which I think that's right. It's somewhere in the 20s. And that also goes to the Tyree Hill stuff, right?

For much of the combine, it was like, how can we fit him in. Yes. And then you come out of the combine and then the market changes which I think they kind of knew it was coming. I don't think what I don't think I realized was like, oh, AJ Brown's getting trading at the draft? That may change some things.

You know, so if you know all these guys are coming to get market setting deals, they tried before the combine to be like, can we manipulate this or manage it somehow? And then I think once it got to a certain point, they said, well, if we have him on our roster,

What is our rookie class? Yeah, we can't do anything else. Yeah. And they made a decision. It was calculated. Tyreek wanted to be the highest paid receiver. That is his prerogative. You could say he earned that.

He did. He earned the ability to do that. So I think both sides are not disgruntled about it, but I think they both understood that, like, it's time to move on. To phase two. Yeah. And phase two has been kicked off in a pretty robust way, I would say. And Taylor, it was good to see you, buddy.

Yeah, man. I like the fact that the Chiefs in the Super Bowl because that means you and I get to hang out every year. It's a great time, man. I'm so happy to see you because obviously you're in my headphones for hours during the week. But yeah, it's a joy to be here. To be back in like a legit radio row, man, we're here, man. I'm excited to be here, and I'm very glad that you're here as well. Thank you very much for the time, my friend.

We'll talk to you soon. Yes, sir. You know it. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Bo and Zach for stopping by. Thank you to Nate Taylor. I love doing the show over here. It's just such a unique thing that we get to do at the athletic

and the resource that we have with all of our fantastic beatwriters who know these teams in a way that really nobody else does. So appreciate their time. Appreciate your guys' time. We're going to have an ridiculous amount of stuff coming your way here over the next five days. We're going to have all of the shows that you come to expect from us. We're going to have Football GM.

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because we got some fun stuff coming your way all week here from Phoenix. For now, that's all we got. I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. was the Athletic Football Show.