The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - How much help do young QBs need to succeed in the NFL?

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Quarterbacks get all the attention in the NFL, and understandably so. But young signal callers don't succeed or fail on their own. They need the right infrastructure around them to become the player the teams drafting them believe they can be. So...what is that infrastructure? Robert Mays, Nate Tice, Derrik Klassen dig into the importance of pass-catchers, offensive lines and playcallers for young QBs, with lessons from recent history, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceFollow Derrik on Twitter: @QBKlassThis episode is brought to you by Betterhelp, Visit betterhelp.com/mays today to get 10% off your first month.Subscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube8:49 Pass-catchers32:08 Offensive lines55:04 Play callers66:23 The teams in this draft's QB market Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Really fun show for you guys today. Earlier this week, Nate and I talked about the top four quarterbacks in this year's draft, the guys that are going to potentially be first round picks and what they look like as prospects. But I think we've learned over time that the success or failure of young quarterbacks in

the NFL isn't just about what type of prospects those players are. The situation that these guys are. dropped into matters immensely. So we're going to look at the other side of that coin today. We're going to look at what has led to successful quarterback play for young guys with infrastructure, the play calling, the pass catchers, the line. When these guys work out, what are they surrounded by? And when they don't, what are they surrounded by? So we thought it was a nice little combo with a show that we did earlier this week. Helping me dig through this today, first of all, my good friend, Nate Tyson. How you doing, buddy?

Doing very well. I'm excited that our third guest are here, our third member of this chat is here today. I'm very excited to work with him. But also, who knew in a sport that has 22 starters on it, including 11 on one side of the ball, that one guy needs help, that one guy actually might need a little bit of help sometimes. And actually, as much as credit that we want to give to quarterbacks, which I think most of the time is deserved, sometimes other guys, do have an impact on the play that's happening on the field, including guys off the field, have an impact on the play on the field. But very excited about this one. I love a good lessons episode or a good philosophical discussion type episode. So it's homework time, baby. That's what we're doing.

It's homework time, right? Exactly. This is a perfect example of that. Helping us fill out our worksheets today, thrilled to have him. It's Derek Klasen. Derek, thank you very much for joining us, buddy. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm very glad to be back. Should be a fun show. You know, I've done, I've been droning about very basic player scouting reports for the past like three months. So it's kind of fun to do something a little bit different, a little bit more off the cusp. Any day three receivers you like? Day three receivers. I mean, I know you have one.

Wait, who's the one? BYU is going to be a bit. Oh, yes. Bringing out the worst impulses of each other immediately. I know what Derek's going through right now. Just like, oh, man, you have to watch some guy with 42 catches. and you have to write up a report. The last thing I'll say about the draft stuff is I'm at the point where every running back

I watch has like seven career receptions and it's like literally none of you guys are going to give me anything in the passing game. This is a complete project in that area. In terms of weird podcast subjects, there are two things that I can provide the people in my life. I can make dinner plans for my friends that are parents and just like you need to figure this out, tell me where to be. that is the role that I play currently in my social strata. The other role is I can bring on different football writers and make them talk about weird stuff.

That is something I absolutely can do in filling a role. So I'm very pleased that we can make that happen. The gasoline to the spark on the spark, man. That's what you are. Just doing my best over here. All right. Derek, I want to start with you. Before we get into some of the nitty gritty here, we talk about this a little bit off, Mike. Any big picture kind of takeaways as you went through this exercise?

size. And before we get into that, the way I did this, and we all kind of did a little bit differently, I went through the highly drafted quarterbacks from essentially the last two CBAs. So if you go back to 2011, which was the Cam Newton draft, there were 37, I believe, first-round quarterbacks taken over that stretch before last year. And then there were a few guys that got to be starters that were third, fourth round picks. That's the list is like two guys long. We know who they are. It's Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott. So I looked at like 40 quarterbacks and who was successful. But in the way that you looked at it, any kind of bigger picture of lessons, you're like, oh, man, this is a good thing to take from this.

I think the biggest thing for me, and like, we'll get into more details and stuff in a little bit, but having talent around you obviously matters, like just like players who help, like, an individual play work, you know what I mean? But I think the biggest thing for me was just, you look at all the guys that have been successful recently and they have a lot of mental help and, like, support help just in terms of like the coaching staff. or like guys on the offensive line, they're helping them set protections and stuff like that. It's just they get a lot of easing into the NFL from a college structure because even if you come from a college program that is very NFL like and you do real stuff, like I don't know,

like Desmond Ritter last year coming from Cincinnati, they did a lot of real stuff. It's still really hard to come in and play an NFL offense. Even if you have a great offensive coordinator like Arthur Smith, like it's just, it takes a lot to get guys in and get them ready. think the more you look at it, the more that these guys had like mental stability and guys who just around them helped raise the floor and make things a little bit easier on a down to down, I think that was was really, really important for me. Nathan, how about you? Yeah, this was a good reiteration of some things that I kind of hold true or I value.

But it also was a good reminder from, we'll talk about one of the sections, but a good reminder. Yes, like Derek's saying is the off-field stuff, having a coach or a center or a offensive line that can make just your life easier, but also just we're talking about raising floor, but raising ceiling and just stuff like with as far as past catchers or anything like that with these quarterbacks is that's what I was a good takeaway for me. I was like, yeah, that that that really did help didn't it? Like that that those examples, oh, okay, I forgot about this example, but what they changed or what they added or what they included when he was selected or maybe the year two of this guy's journey, okay, that did help.

Like now that we could take, as you like to say, take a step back and actually look at it, but now that you have time to let all this kind of stuff marinate, you're not in the thick of it. You don't really know how these guys' careers shake out when they're with and without all this help that they get. So it was a really good kind of exercise to now look at this more historically as we have more examples. You mentioned year one and year two, I think is good to point out.

The way I looked at it was in the first couple years. I looked at a lot of the success stories. So when did the success story begin? And for some of these guys, it's year two. Perfect example. Jared Goff gets drafted by the Jeff Fisher Rams. It's an absolute fucking disaster. And then in year two, Sean McVeigh comes in and the entire situation changes.

And for some of these guys, that's how it worked. For some, it was good immediately. You know, Russell Wilson going to the Seahawks, it was good immediately. Dak was in great circumstances with Dallas immediately. For Trevor Lawrence, it was a nightmare in year one. And then in year two, you have a lot of important. things change and you see different sort of results. So it's really like a one, two, three year consideration with some of these studies. And I think that's good to keep in mind. Outside of the lessons,

I think my favorite part of this was just remembering such random stuff that happened. Yes. The idea that Tavon Austin got a four-year contract extension with like $30 million guaranteed, the season after he had 440 receiving yards is amazing. Like stuff like that. I was like, oh my God, I forgot that that even happened. Or that Zach Miller had the highest cap hit on the 2013 Seahawks, a team that had like seven Hall of Famers on it. Yes. Seriously?

True story. It was $11 million. He had the highest cap hit on the team for one of the best teams we've seen in my lifetime. He had the highest cap hit. Amazing. That's so funny. There were some really good ones as I like dug through the team building aspects and positional allocation and all that kind of stuff.

and I'm sure we'll get into it. So I want to start with the past catchers because I think that's where my research kind of started and I went going back all the way to like Cam Newton. What did those groups look like? So Nate, I want to start with you. When you were kind of trying to find some takeaways from some of these good situations, what were the two or three kind of observations you made about the past catching groups in these moments?

Yeah. My like personal philosophy and stuff and I've talked about this on the show and we've had discussions on this is I think the past catchers. can be the last thing you add to help out the quarterback. I'm just saying can here because it's not a bad thing to have good pass catchers for a guy. And we'll talk about the offensive line in a second. And that's where I always think that point A should start. But yeah, you prefer to have some dudes.

But it's actually not the worst thing to have a quarterback work with a small room for error. And then it gets bigger as the pass catchers get better. But I looked at some of these guys, like even guys that I've been around and seeing how their game changes as they're able to have more. room for error with a good pass catchers. Derek Carr, getting Amari Cooper and Michael Crabtree. You know, those,

that was a huge jump from his rookie year to then the second and third years when he was throwing to Seth Roberts and our guy, Andre Holmes, you know, was like, they're leading target getters. That's not exactly, undrafted free agents.

It's not exactly how you want, who you want to throw to for a lot of targets. But then I also didn't get guys some like true aces. Dante Colpepper dropped right in and second, second year as a pro, but first year starting. hit Chris Carter and Randy Moss. Not bad.

Yeah, that's going to help you throw 30-something touchdowns when you don't even, like, you know, have no idea what you're doing to figure out how you play quarterback. Droboro, of course, with T. Higgins Tower Boy, Jamar Chase. Well, ended up getting Jamar Chase. But yeah, you guys know what I mean. But it was in year two. I mean, we're talking about these in like one, two-year increments. It was very fast.

And I know you guys are, I don't want to take all the, all the examples. But I really do think that if you go from a bad pest catcher and then you get the good ones in the second or third year, it's like a baseball player having. having a donut on their bat. You know, they're swinging it. It's not as fast. And then you take the donut off. You're like, wow, this is a lot easier to swing this bat really fast.

But another one that I even maybe underestimated because now it's funny, just how memory works as you get older, but like Deshaun Watson, halfway starting his first year, he has Will Fuller and DeAndre Hopkins. Yes. Who are just idealistic guys to throw to, especially with his aggressive play style, but not only just having talented guys around you, but just guys that match to have synergy with you as well. And that was maybe my biggest takeaway is not only just getting talent, but again, talent that makes sense. And I've talked about this as quarterbacks, as superstars in the NBA.

And you look at that and you see that that's kind of been a philosophy or how basketball team making is happening right now is getting guys that makes sense and synergy around a guy. So I think that's something that's really one of my bigger takeaways as I watched maybe historical examples recently and in a way past. DeShon Watson doesn't, with the Texans, doesn't really. check some of these boxes that we're going to talk about. The circumstances weren't that good his first couple of years in Houston. They were still 12th and passing DVOA. His first full year as a starter before he got hurt. DeAndre Hopkins in 2018, their first full season together.

What do you think his target share was for the Texas that season? Derek, what's your guess? What is the record is like where I'm trying to start? I don't know, like 35%. I was going to say 31. It was 33% that season. Gee, yeah, Yeah, we put it.

In the past, right rules, I win. So no one else in the league at year was above 28.8%. Oh my God. 33%, one third. If you know the math there. Okay. That has happened 12 times in the past 23 years.

Okay. One single player had a third of his team's target share. Randy Moss did it twice. Oh, yeah. Two thousand, 2002. Randy ratio, baby. 2002, 2003 are the two years that Randy Moss did it. Michael Thomas did it.

Michael Thomas did it. It missed it once in 2019, Antonio Brown, Steve Smith in 2005. Remember that crazy Steve Smith year where he just willed the Panthers to the playoffs? Was that the triple crown year? That's the year where he burned the Bears down in the postseason when the 05 Bears defense was incredible. So he also scored on the Vikings that year. That was the year that's actually when Dante Kovper got hurt. And he had an homage to the love boat as his touchdown celebration.

So that's burn it. So I remember that Steve Smith here very vividly. So that's how much of an outlier. DeAndre Hopkins was in terms of his profile within that offense. So when we're talking about how this works, give and take matters. So the Texans offensive line, which we can get into later, it was horrendous that season. Like it was not good. They had no plus players on the offensive line, but they had a guy getting a third of the targets who was arguably the best receiver in the league.

So these things are all push and pull. It's all like a pie chart of how this can work. So Derek, on the past catcher's side of this, what was your biggest takeaway when you were looking at kind of how some of these groups were constructed for these guys that have been successes. I mean, I think Nate nailed it with synergy. Synergy is like the, it's the big word, because I think having talent generally will help, like, if you just have A minus skill players of any kind, I think that's going to help any quarterback, but like, I think matching guys that fit their skill sets make sense. Like the Bengals did it perfectly. Having T. Higgins and Jemar

Chase for a quarterback and Tyler Boyd, and Tyler Boyd, who like Joe Burrow is so willing to, especially outside the numbers, throw up a one-on-one, and he knows his guy's going to get it, and he knows where to put it. And so to have those two guys is, like, unbelievably perfect, you look at a completely different offense. You look at what the dolphins have done with Tua. We're like, Tua's not really a jump ball throw,

or he's not necessarily a guy who's going to be aggressive down the field unless you absolutely make him. But he's very, very good at leading for yards after the catch, and that's what they've designed their entire offense to do with Jalen Waddle and Tire Kill. So I think just understanding, like, what exactly is your quarterback good at and giving them the tools to, giving them the receivers that actually makes sense for what they do, I think is perfect.

I mean, even another example like Justin Herbert, like him having just huge skyscrapers at literally every position for a guy who can just rocket it in and pinpoint the ball exactly on whatever shoulder or whatever he wants. I mean, it just makes sense, right, to have and pay those guys the way that they've done. So I think just understanding exactly what your quarterback does and trying to, to fit the offense to him, I think, makes the most sense. I would put these into like two different buckets outside of the synergy, which I think is a very good point.

I think you have teams where there are bevy of options and you give your quarterback selections. And like the 2017 Rams are like that, right? Like the 2017 Rams, if you look at the target distribution, it's actually pretty fascinating. So like the 2017 Rams are a really good example. This number is actually very fun. No one on that team got more than 18.4% of the target.

targets. Cooper Cup was number one in Target share at 18.4. Todd Gurley was number two at 17.1. Todd Gurley had 64 catches for 78 yards that season. It was, well, screens. And it was all the play action checkdowns. And I refer to this all the time. It's just rumbling down the sideline, like with nobody around him. I loved it. That's why it's burned into my brain. Just beautiful. But that he was second. Woods was at 16.7 and Samuel Watkins was 13.7. So we're just totally distributed all over the place. And then another couple good examples of that, like the Cowboys in 2016. Beasley was at 20 percent, Des was at 20 percent, Witten was at 20 percent.

So you have some of these teams where it's like, okay, we just have options, which there's value in that. And I think that the 2019 bills were kind of like that, which is that was the John Brown Cole Beasley bills teams before they got Stefan Diggs where you spam choice routes to Beasley just over and then just go balls to John Brown. Like that was the offense. And so that's like an intermediate step. And then the other one is you have either one guy or two guys that this is the option I can go to whenever I want.

Right. So there are a ton of examples of this. Another good example for the equal distribution, the 2012 Seahawks was Golden Tate and Sydney Rice. Just like equal options. Golden Tate, I remember, as being like a slot player. And that's what he was late in his career. in Seattle that season in 2012, Russell's rookie year,

Golden Tate finished ninth in air yards per attempt in the NFL. Watch a baby. He was just behind Randy Moss and just ahead of A.J. Green. So stylistically, some players change over time. Golden Tate's one of those guys. But you look at some of these other examples

and there are a lot of these teams where they just had the one guy. You go back to, we remember the late years of Cam thrown at Calvin Benjamin and how much of a nightmare that was. He had Steve Smith in 2011. Steve Smith had a 25% target share that year.

He had 79 catches for 1,400 yards. We already talked about to Sean Watson and DeAndre Hopkins. You go to the chiefs, obviously. They had Travis Kelsey and Tyree kill. Between Kelsey and Hill, they had a 50% combined target share that year for Patrick Mahomes. So I think that having either a full group that you can throw to or at least one guy, maybe two guys are like, these are my dudes. This happens often. This happens in almost every single one of these cases.

Really, the only time it hasn't happened is when you have a team that's built a little bit differently and you can lean on the run game as a way to buy time. So, Derek, when you were talking about the Bengals, that's what it makes me think about is that era of the Bengals, the Go Ball era, was buying time to get Joe Burrow where he needed to get to. And we've seen this over time. And the one other way specifically that I think some of these teams have bought time is they've been. dominant running the ball. The Panthers were the number one rushing team by DVOA in the NFL during Cam's rookie year, and the quarterback has something to do with that. The Ravens were the number one rushing team in the NFL, Lamar's rookie year.

The quarterback had something to do with that. And the Seahawks in Russ's second season, and I believe his first season, they were number one in the league in rushing DVOA. So if you don't have like the guys, you better have a way to kind of protect your quarterback, insulate him, and make things easier on him. It's like one of those two different. options. Yeah, and I think with that, like, I think when people imagine the argument of like, oh, you need a strong running game to help out the quarterback, it's like just for the sake of getting

yards and being and having another way to move down the field. But it's not really that to me. To me, it's more like you're putting yourself in more advantageous down in distances and you're protecting your quarterback from third and seven or whatever. Like Jared Gough on the Rams is like the ultimate example of this to me where like the way they ran the ball, especially in 2017, 2018, like, they were obviously very efficient doing it, but it helped keep Jared Gough out of these like detrimental third and sevens where like that's just where he plays his worst ball. He's really good on first down, like easy second downs. Like he'll get the ball where it needs to go. But like third down when you pressure him, like you're going to get some issues. But they were so good at avoiding

those scenarios or when they were getting into third down, it was third and three. And it's like, oh, okay, well, maybe they could still run the wall. And because maybe they can still run the ball, it makes it easier to throw the ball, as opposed to when you're in third and nines all the time, it's just really, really difficult. I mean, like, you even look at 2021 with that class. The bears, the Jets, and the Jaguars were all top 13 in the volume of third and like fourth down, seven plus yard place that they had to do. Obviously, all those guys, yeah, all those guys just had a lot of third and longs because

their offenses weren't very talented. They couldn't run the ball that well. It was really hard for them. The Patriots, on the other hand, were bottom-fired. five by volume in those amount of plays and who had the best rookie year out of all of those quarterbacks. It's a great point. It was just he just had an easier.

I mean, he obviously played well, but he just had like, he was more consistently in these favorable situations where it was easier for him to do that. So for me, that's, that's the value really of the run game. It's like, sure, getting into play action is nice. Sure, moving down the field is nice. But it's really just keeping them out of these brutal down in distances where you're going to get the rookie moments, where you're going to get your rookie mistakes. That's a great point.

It's the hard shit. Third and longs, the hardest, it's the hardest down in the distance. And that's why we freak last year, the chiefs and the bills were like doing it at like a 50% clip, you know, just the ridiculous numbers on that. And guess who those quarterbacks are? Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes. It's why Justin Herbert's rookie year was so incredible because he had a bunch of third and longs and it didn't matter.

Like he was just so incredible at it that it didn't matter. And that was when it was like, oh, this guy is clearly different that he can just walk in and kind of cheat code and just be that good. already at this thing that nobody else is supposed to be good at. We're talking about, I think, two different versions of how rushing success can help you. They're a team, the Rams are a good example of this. In 2017, when the Rams were dropped into that Sean McVeigh offense, where do you think they ranked in early down passive frequency?

Oh, 20th. First. Whoa. Number one. Bunch of play action and screens. I was shocked by that. Because in my head, it's like, oh, it's this run-heavy offense. balanced. They leaned on that.

They kind of put the training wheels on. It was first. But like Derek's talking about, it was easy completions. They're making the game easy on the quarterback. And then the other one that I was really surprised by, the Panthers were ninth in early down pass frequency in Cam's rookie year. You imagine them as this bulldozer sort of team, and that's not how they were. There are a couple examples on the other side, though. The Seahawks were in the bottom quarter of the league, Russ's rookie year.

they really kind of leaned on the run game. And then the Cowboys during Dax Rookie Year were a bottom core of the league team. So it's not just that we have to have tons of rushing volume and efficiency. There are different ways to skin this cat if you have an efficient run game. No, because even Goff under what was a Mike Roe and Chris Winky in his first year as the offensive play calls. I don't remember. I know. I know.

I had to look it up. And that offense is, it's honestly. And I try to be nice about it. thing. It's probably the worst offense I've ever seen. It's in the conversation. The other entries into that are the Josh Rosen Cardinals. The Bears year with under what's his face? Under John Fox, they had one year that was pretty pretty atrocious too. Yeah, that there are a couple good examples, but the Rams in 2016 are definitely up near the top of the week. And that was a that offense was stuck in the, and this is kind of the M.O. on Jeff Fisher and kind of his philosophy on football,

it's kind of a lot of stuff was stuck in 2002. Yeah. Like this worked in. We're going to be a smash mouth offense to help our quarterback. So what I'm saying is go to the next year, even with that pass frequency stat, is that that was still a run-centric offense, but it was modernized. It was 11 personnel. It was all the motion. It was a Shanahan offense, which became the meta of the NFL. So it was a kind of, that was the edge that they had.

And that's what just having that kind of edge as far as modernizing the game could be the same thought process of what we want to get to, but understanding it through a modern lens. understanding the play action, the screens working off the play action, all those plays look the same. That helps a quarterback so much. How much was no huddle and going to the line and McVeigh's telling them to play to check into, like, because they got to the line so quick. That matters.

That helps. That really does really helps. The Eagles and Wentz's second year, what I'm having the edge with the RPO offense. I was just about to bring that up. There's such an edge over everybody else. There are little tiny advantages. If you can be one step ahead into evolutionarily, what that does for, your young quarterback. Again, it's just, it buys you time. The Eagles with the RPO's, the Rams with

the 11 personnel type formation stuff along with all the Jet Motion. That year in 2018, Jared Goff had 75 dropbacks with Jet Motion. No other team in the league had more than 40. Yeah. Because they're just in their own zip code. No one wanted to do it before. Everyone was like, oh, it changes the picture. And then everyone realized, well, we got to learn how to do it because it really, really helps our offense. But being able to first one through the door sometimes really, really helps being being the one that's on the edge. And thinking about two more examples here of guys that they bought time with unique offenses built around them.

Cam with the Panthers, obviously, Lamar Jackson in 2019, and what J-1 Hertz is done. It just is such a huge help. And Lamar is really, if we want to put a bow kind of on the past catcher thing, is the only one that didn't really have any receivers of any kind.

I mean, Mark Andrews was there. That was it. Every other person, even teams that are built in specific ways like those Panthers teams were, they still had Steve Smith. Lamar is really the only guy who has done this without a real threat on the outside. Everybody else had one. Like, even Alshon Jeffrey was on the Eagles. You know, during Carson Wentz's second year. So it is almost a non-negotiable thing where you have to have at least one big time, often two receivers in order to work through this first couple of years successfully. You don't want Darnel Mooney to be your leading target getter? I'm feeling much better than I did a year ago. Yes. Much, much, much better than I did a year ago. We're talking about. Synergy.

We're talking about synergy with a guy. DJ Moore has synergy with Justin Fields. And that's why I'm so excited for that. That is a vertical X, which is what I've been screaming for for two years for the Bears to get. It's interesting looking at the teams that could draft a quarterback this year, right? Because I think for the most part, these teams are closer to those in a best case scenario, those like 2017, 2018 Rams teams. The Texans almost on purpose, it seems like.

They went out and got Robert Woods. So they got Wood. Nico Collins, Mechie, Dalton Schultz. So it's like, all right, in the best case scenario, this can be one of those teams where we have enough options

even if there are no stars. The Colts have Michael Pittman, Alec Pierce, Isaiah McKenzie, same kind of deal. And the Panthers are, to me, a really good example of this, right? Where DJ Chark, Adam Theelan, Haydenhurst, no elite players,

but it all makes sense, though, together when you think about the plan. And I think that may be the lasting legacy of those Rams teams is. No stars, but God did the piece of it. fit together. You totally understood what they were trying to do.

And I think that's the optimistic spin on some of these teams that could draft one. That was that 2018 Rams dropping in, cooks. Okay, we got a true X with a true Z. That's right. That's right. Two in and out Z's,

you know, with Woods and Cup. It was like, I mean, that all was beautiful. It's exactly how you want to build your receiving room. Yeah, no,

this is why, if they are a team that goes for, I'm like, kind of excited to see if, like, someone, the Raiders do take a guy because they got some ideal dudes to throw to, for a young quarterback.

But also, this is my little bow on this is, well, also I want to give a little shout out to Greg Roman for not only doing it with Lamar, but Colin Kaepernick as well in San Francisco, just understanding what your guys are and what they throw and what they're good at. But my bow on this is that this is my argument going from shit to not shit is, you know, Trevor Lawrence, sometimes just getting to a B level receiving room or pass catching room. When you're at a D, a D plus, a C minus, it's still a huge improvement. Reverend Lawrence is the ideal version of that. It's like, yes, now they got even better guys with Calvin Ridley coming down this year.

But last year, going from just terrible to passable to true starting level guys with Kirk and Ingram and Zay Jones. You see the improvement so much because the room for error is grown. Even if it's a marginal room for error growth, it still is growth. And that helps so much with these guys. Derek, any other receiver notes before we get to our next one here? The last one I would say is like the 2016 Rams were another good. example of that where they were throwing to like Brian Quick and uh Kenny Britt and I don't even

remember the name I think Brin wasn't Brandon Lloyd on that team oh my goodness dude he might have been they also had some tight end who like I don't remember now oh no Brandon Lloyd was retired by that passes so I'm remembering I remembering a different St. Louis Rams team where Brandon Lloyd got a ton of the targets that was the back half of the 2011 season oh we could bring in Sam Bradford discussion yes let's just bring him in let's talk about his pass catchers that he had Brandon Lloyd in 11 games, okay, with the Rams in 2011 and San Bradford's second year. I knew I didn't remember this for a reason. He had 117 targets.

Brandon Lloyd in 11 games. So 10 targets a game. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. That's incredible. Like a very fine receiver. It's again, when you're in the deep end sometimes with this, I remember Jacksman's getting kind of mad at me going like, you really hate our receivers.

They're not that bad. I'm like, well, you got to look at the other teams and see what they got. And then you see what the baseline actually is. You don't really know when you're into thick of things. Because they traded for him midseason. He got there like four games into the year. And it just peppered. Just hit the ground running, 10 targets a game after coming midseason.

That's how you know that your past catching room is in a terrible shape. Yeah. Because when you trade for a guy and immediately he's a 10 target a game player for you. Oh my God. That's an absolute nightmare. All right. Let's talk about what Nate really wants to talk about here. And that's the offensive lineman.

As you've dug through the recent history of these guys and the type of offensive lines or the type of personnel that we're looking at, what was your main takeaway? And this is a believer, a belief of mine that I'll have because I think with quarterback play, it not only helps them, it helps these guys grow and do the right thing. And that's why I think having a strong offensive line, not only just because I can run game stuff. And like we've talked about staying on schedule and something you can rely on when things get tough throwing the ball. but just even like working from the pocket, which so many of these quarterbacks have to do is, yes, most quarterbacks only have a couple clean pockets a game, a half dozen to 10 a game. But that doesn't matter. It's just having manageable pockets where you are working on the pocket movement. You are working on be able to progress.

Functional pockets. Yes. Functional pockets. So you can do the right thing. And that's what is something that I always will harp on because I just, I've seen proof in both ways of this working and not working for guys. They have more time to progress on things. Find checkdowns. Actually, when they're throwing the ball, they're not getting tackled as they throw the ball or getting whacked.

And those hits add up. And also just prevents bad habits from forming. Yes. Happy feet. Eyes coming down and looking at the pass rush instead of a working down field, which is, if you want to look what happened with Zach Wilson last year, you saw so much with him where his eyes are coming down. He looks at one and his eyes come down. And that is, that's a bad habit.

That's a hard habit to break. It really is. as someone that had that habit at times as a quarterback, it's a really hard habit to break because you have to trust what's happening around you. But be able to step up, maneuver and all that. The examples of good I've had with this is both Eagles, recent Eagles quarterbacks, Jalen Hertz and Carson Wentz. Both of those guys had some strong offense of lines that helped them drop back when they needed to drop back.

If you, like, this was some of the things and why I've hedged somewhat a little bit on Hertz, but he did outplay what I did think he could. It's because I'd watch those pockets that he operates from. It's really nice to be able to. step up on every single throw and launch whatever you want to launch. Just hang out back there. Just hang out. Yeah, you don't even have to hitch if you don't want to.

Just fake scramble, like do whatever you want. That really helps. The Mac Jones example that Derek brought up. Mac Jones, success during his rookie year, he had a strong offense aligned. He really did with also conducive offense to help out with both his skill set and that offense aligned. And another historical example, I should say, I love I get to say historical from like, because now I'm getting old, is Matt,

Matt Ryan when he came into the league. He had, that Falcons offensive line was very good. And he had a pass catchers, Roddy White, before they dropped in Julio as well. But that offensive line was really strong. And it had a run first mindset that we just talked about as well. I meant to actually bring this up. But that was those examples of good. That let him grow and hit the ground running.

I mean, he was rookie the year, obviously. But he had. Remember, they had, they drafted Sam Baker that year. They had two first round picks that year. They drafted Sam Baker as their left tackle. And Todd McClure was already there. year. Yes. Yes. And they signed Michael Turner and free agency. I mean, they needed so much to improve that infrastructure that off season. The famous play. And the Falcons fans know this is Matt Ryan's first ever pass attempt was a touchdown. The long touchdown. Watch the play on it. It's a play action with a beautiful pocket that he gets the throw from. But that is exactly what he got to go through. So he got to work on his habits and work on those stuff that you want to grow. So I think what do you want to see, the signs of growth that you want to see from these quarterbacks. So that is those are those types. of conduce it's conducive to success because it lets you get to those habits.

And that's why I brought up. And I'm not knocking that you don't need receivers. You too. You need pass catchers. It's just that that's why I think you can add them secondary in the team building process for these quarterbacks because like I said, it's the donut on the bat. But now the offensive line actually gets into those habits and then you can throw the ball.

It's hard to throw the ball on your back. And so these guys let you do that. By the way, that list of 12 guys or 11 guys that have had at least a third of their team's targets in a single season. Roddy White during Matt Ryan's rookie year. Boom. There's another one. That was another one.

I mean, because you got to think they, before the Mike Vic dog fighting scandal is that team was built to win. Like they, that team was really, they were all the way there to be close to a contender when Petrino came in. It was the year from hell. But then, so those guys don't leave. It's not like the year from hell happened. And they were like, oh, all the other guys leave.

So they were built. And then Matt Ryan just, now they just get a top five pick and, who it was just just dropped this guy in there. And boom. Now they go right to. success. That's why they had all those playoff runs early in his career. Derek, what do you got for me? Was your main offensive line takeaway? The center, man. The center is everything. Like, obviously having a generally good offensive line like the Eagles have had with their guys is

a help. But like Jason Kelsey, him being one of the best and smartest centers in the league, I think went a long way. Yeah, he's done it twice. There's very clear evidence with two very different quarterbacks. Like, they're both mobile, but Wentz wasn't as much of a design guy. He was more like, we kind of need to figure out what to do with him in the passing game. How is he going to, like, can we get him to set protections and all that stuff? And I think Kelsey helped a lot in that sense. You get with Hertz, he does all of that.

But also, he gets to do stuff in the run game that, like, probably only one or two other centers in the entire league would have allowed Jalen Hertz to do, which I think has gone a long way. But, like, you just look at so many of these other examples, Dak Prescott inheriting Travis Frederick. year two of Derek Carr, they signed Rodney Hudson, year two of Josh Allen, they signed Mitch Morris, Russell Wilson. And Mitch Morris, who was with Patrick Mahomes during Patrick Mahomes's first season as a starter. Yes, exactly. Another guy who's done this twice.

Another guy who's done this twice. And then he went to Arizona and helped out Kyler a little bit. They were clearly better at setting protection. So, like, there's this, I don't think every quarterback necessarily needs it because I think there are a couple of, you get rare examples of guys who are so smart. when they come in that it doesn't matter. Like, Andrew Luck probably could have done it with anybody. Joe Burrow came into the league and it didn't matter who his center was. He was just so smart that that was kind of his superpower anyway.

But with most of these guys, the transition is really, really difficult. And when you have an offensive lineman, specifically a center who can really help you understand the protections, help you set them on game day and like help you understand and study out of game day, that just goes such a long way in getting these guys prepared coming from most of these college offense. It's like it just, it does so much. Absolutely. I'm a huge believer in that. So like, yes. I am as well. We've talked about that a lot, Nate. I mean, it's, it was why the Bears plan over the last couple years was so frustrating to me. That's my counter example. Yes. It's just a Seals. Mustapur. And, well, obviously, they tried to bring in Lucas Patrick this year in order to

alleviate some of that and then he gets hurt immediately because that's just how my life seems to work. But if you look at their history of it, there are so many examples of this. Cam, Ryan Coleel was there. Russell Wilson, Max Unger was there. Jared Goff in 2016 or 2017, it wasn't a big name guy, but they brought in John Sullivan. You remember that? John Sullivan came in. He was like 32 years old. Yeah, it was just like a really good presence for them.

Carson Wentz obviously had Kelsey, DAC had Travis Frederick, Mahomes with Mitch Morse. Deshawn again, the offensive line situation in Houston those first couple years was not fantastic. So he's an example on the other side of this. You know, Lamar was Matt Scura in 2019, but Marshall Yonda was there. Yeah, they had so many pieces along that offensive line. And they were kind of, that offense is just like, we're calling it. Yeah. There's no real adjustment.

Yeah, yeah, I'm just saying. That's another good example. It's where it's not as important necessarily. Yeah. Coal pepper had Matt Burke. Yep. Like, it's, there's a lot of these guys that it helps so much. I mean, Peyton talks about his work with Jeff Saturday all the time.

And like he's, because Peyton was always in control, but he said that the fact that there's never a miscommunication with him and Saturday was like that helps everybody play fast. They spoke each other's language. I'm a huge, huge believer that the center is so important for these guys. And then Justin Herbert got Corey Winsley his second year. So he didn't. Right. And like, that's even an example where like even the guys who are already good, it does a lot. It helps. Justin Herbert proved as a rookie, you could have probably put anybody at center and he would be fine. But they went out and they were like, we're going to get everything to make sure we're getting 100% of Justin Herbert's brain and comfort out there in the pocket.

And they didn't. He's been a top three, four quarterback in the week since then. The Colts try to do that with Kelly with luck. Yeah. They try. And I was all about it. I was like, I understand that thought process totally. And Ryan Kelly's still there.

You know, they said that he's going to be there. And his play was not last, last year was not commensured to where it was in years past. But I guarantee you part of their thought process is, if we're going to drop a young guy in here, having somebody who can speak a language and really. really help him along is going to be really important. You're paying a premium a little bit for that, even if he's probably not the player on field that he was when he got that contract extension. So it's such an important position, man.

Yeah. I think we, I'm glad Derek brought this up because it's something we've talked about, Robert, but I think people are catching on how important is, especially with how complicated defenses are now. Yeah. It's just, that's what these guys just help everything run. It's a force multiplier, whatever term you want to use. They have such an effect in letting you have the most talented offense align.

the center gets you going in the right it's not like a guard will overrule center and go not all the time sometimes once in a while but a guard will go oh no that's wrong john no no we're not going to the to the to the 54 there the center gets everyone going to the right direction so if you have a guy that lets everyone play fast just unlock so much for an offense that's why it's fun like the idea of a team the lions drafting a quarterback ragnow being there or the panthers resigning bradley bozeman having that guy i think is a really important part of this i think it's underrated i've always believe that. And I think, again, my team not doing anything about it was massively frustrating over the last couple of years. So I see your center point, Derek, and I raise you left tackle.

Blind side is important. And I don't honestly know. The center I can understand the cause and effect functionality of it. With left tackle, I don't necessarily know if it's a, well, because he protects the blind side of the quarterback, this is really, like, that's how it works. This might be accidental or coincidental in a way that we're not really talking about. But there is alignment. And we can go through it if you want to, okay? Cam Newton had Jordan Gross. Jordan Gross was on the last year of his deal.

So offensive line spending on a lot of these teams are not near the top of the league. So that was one of the other takeaways that I have. It's not like all these teams are top five in offensive line spending. The Eagles are the outlier here because a lot of these guys have been veterans. you know, Jason Peters, we'll get to. They were spending a lot even in 2017. But for the most part, these teams aren't, but that's often because of rookie contract somewhere.

Yeah. Right? So like, that's the tradeoff. The Cowboys had two first round picks that were around rookie deals. You know, the Rams, they didn't spend a lot to go get John Sullivan. They got Andrew Whitworth on a fairly cheap deal. They had Haventstein on a rookie contract at that point.

So if there's investment, it's just not a lot of cap dollars overall. So I think that's an important point to mention. but you keep going back to the left tackles Jason Peters with Carson Wentz Andrew Whitworth coming to the Rams with Jared Gough was there. DeK Prescott had Tyron Smith. DeShon Watson also another example

that didn't have anybody. Was Julian Davenport in his first full years starter? We're going to talk about play cars too and it's like Sean Watson, man, he overcame a lot. Yeah, he really, really did. This first couple years. Mahomes had Eric Fisher and Mitchell Schwartz.

Lamar Jackson had Ronnie Stanley. Josh Allen had Dionne Dawkins. And Nate, like you and I talk about as long as you're getting over a certain bar, that's the bar you need to get over. And Deanne Dawkins clears that bar. Millennial Donald Penn, man. That's what he is. Joe Burrow had Jonah Williams, even with the rest of that horrendous offensive line, his second season. He still had Jonah Williams, who was a capable offensive tackle.

Justin Herbert had nothing. That's another impressive thing for Justin Herbert, but they got Ray Sean Slater in year two. And then Trevor Lawrence had Cam Robinson and Juan Taylor over those first couple years, which again, those guys clear that bar. So it really like almost every single guy has a tackle or two. So it's almost a non-negotiable thing. Like every single one of these success stories, there are at least two to three above average starters along the offensive line and they often are at left tackle and center. Yeah.

It's like, I'm like just like, yeah. Like this is like this is my team building like my philosophy anyways, you know, my fake one as I sit here on a podcast. That's, but it's, it's, it's what I believe in, though. Like, you're crushing it, buddy. I know. Thank you so much. Uh, I know someone, someone said that, uh, sorry, this is a personal thing, but someone tweeted yesterday is like, no one's, there was a Twitter argument in my, my replies. I was not part of it, but someone said, teams aren't looking at Nate Tice, because he's not drafting these guys. He's just putting out takes on Twitter. And I did the Jurassic Park lawyer, Giff, or he's like, thank you. Like, the only one agrees with me is

the blood sucking lawyer. Yeah, there you. Thank you. That's exactly right. But no, I'm a big believer in this, especially with the tackle tube is I think why left tackle and why blindside. And yes, right tackles become even more and more important because of how defenses are putting their best pass rusher over the right tackle and stuff. But having that left tackle, it just you don't have to provide chip help. Yeah. You don't have to all the receivers can or runoffbacks can get out into the past. It just has that trickle down effect that that that's what these guys do and having talent that positions.

also even if you have a shoddy left guard it can help that like you're working on double teams well if you have a dude at left tackle it doesn't matter who's next to Trent Williams Trent Williams is going to bury a guy like because he's going to handle all of it so that all that stuff just helps because it has that trickle down and making everybody else's life easier so the flexibility was going to be my my point because like obviously you know feeling safe from your blind side is huge but like just the flexibility of what your offense can do in terms of protections when and how you can get guys out how you're aligned all that stuff, like, really helps when you have a left tackle who can just, I mean, like the Rams. I think the Rams are like an example of basically all this. But with Andrew Whitworth, it was like, you could run any protection you wanted. You could chip however you wanted away from him because you knew whoever you put against Andrew Whitworth was not going to get to Jared Goff. Exactly.

And that's why this idea of the Texans trading where I mean, Tunsel, when they were going to draft a quarterback and with the second overall pick was always crazy to me. It's like, no, he's the most important part of what you're going to do here. Right. You need him. Them trading cooks, I still think that there's an argument for wanting him to be a part of the infrastructure you're trying to build for your quarterback. But he was unhappy. There was a lot of other factors going on there.

But the tons of thing, I was like, if they want to trade them, I'll take them. But I don't think that's a good idea when you have all the resources that they have. And that's like, he's harder to replace. Like, at least with cooks, you could get him out of there. And like, you can, he's a good player, but you can more reasonably find a receiver. Yes. You can give you that. Yeah.

You're not going to find another top five left tackle. All pro left tackle. Are you the best player? A perennial all pro. He's on the podium every single year. That's all you need. Derek, you made a point, though, that I think is worth bringing up. Maybe it's not something that where your light bulb is going off because you think about

this all the time. But for other people, I think it's worth bringing up. That feeling of safety, I've talked, I find this entire subject so fascinating. And it's one of the things I ask coaches about and personnel people about more than almost anything else. It's like, all right, how do we get this guy from point A to point B? What are the aspects of this? And the word that comes up over and over again when you're having this discussion with people in the NFL is trust.

It's trust. So with the past catchers, what's what Stefan Diggs did for Allen, do you have a guy that you can trust and just let that thing fly? Jamar Chase, just think about those Bengals teams. That's real. Think about what AJ Brown was for J.1 Hertz this year. That trust is created. If you trust your left tackle, it changes the way that you operate as a quarterback. The best example I can think of,

now I remember talking to somebody about this, it might have been somebody with the Colts or just another coach it when it happened. Remember in 2020 when Anthony Costanzo got hurt and the Colts had to sign Jared Valdir to play left tackle for them? You could see Rivers change. I mean, this is a guy who had seen more football

than anybody can even imagine. And you could see how his demeanor playing the position changed, even going from a player that was a solid left tackle and Anthony Costanzo to a guy they signed off the street. And for a guy like that was played for 20 years, for that to affect him, think about what it means for a young quarterback who's just scared shitless back there all the time anyway and how different it is to feel the game when you have a guy there that you trust. I think that is such a huge thing. And that's why maybe it is a causal thing for these left tackles. But I think it's important to bring up, Derek, even it's something that you think about all the time.

I think even a good example for that is just last year with Tua. Like I think Tua, his first couple years in the league, his pocket presence was not good. He really struggled to move up a lot of the times. He didn't seem like he was comfortable understanding. I wouldn't want to either. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. It just wasn't very fun to do it.

And he's not a quarterback who's like good at throwing when his like platform is crowded in front of him. Because he's a little shorter. Like that's just not really his game. You could tell this year with the way they upgraded the offensive. line, and it still wasn't fantastic, it still had its flaws in a lot of ways, but like, between the offensive line and how well Mike McDaniel set up the protections to be good and comfortable for him, he was in a completely different world in terms of how willing he was to step up in the pocket, stand in there, make really tough throws.

Like, that, I think, is a really good recent example of what it looks like for a guy who getting just a little bit more help, especially on your blind side. And even though Arnstead didn't play every game, like, it just kind of changed the profile of what Tua can be. And then on the other end, you get a guy like Lamar Jackson who like, I think his pocket management is unbelievable. Like he's so fantastic at being able to stay in, being able to move, throw tight platforms, all that. These past couple years from the offensive line has deteriorated around him, we've seen a player who we know has great pocket presence, just completely want to bail and leave the pocket because he just doesn't trust anything that's going on around him, both in terms of the players and the protection plan.

So it's just like, I think that comfort, like you're saying, that trust in the guys around you. you are going to protect you, even if you have to take hits in some tight pockets, you know they're giving you enough space to do it. That little bit of difference, it's so hard to like quantify. Yeah. But man, it matters. And when you see a quarterback play that way, you can really feel it. I mean, another historic, I mean, our veteran example from last year,

what happens when the Bucks offensive line falls apart in Tom Brady? Yes. And also Tom Brady is not stepping into anything because he's like, F this. I don't know my mid-40s. I can't take these. Yeah. Donovan Smith is getting another holding penalty. Like, you know, the center is snapping a ball all over the place.

Like you can see even the guy, you know, the goat, you know, struggling at times and like not feeling comfortable. And I love your Tua example because you could just see the the rhythm come back for Tua. Everything was so much more in rhythm. You watched this Bucs offense last year, even with the guy, Tom Brady, nothing was in rhythm with that offense. And it's not like, it's not like Tom Brady just loses it. You know, there's, it's not like he just losing. loses that magic. So what happened? Well, you know, losing your center, trading Shaq Mason, losing another guard to free agency, Donovan Smith having the worst year of his career.

Yeah, that's not going to really be conducive to success, even with a guy that started, you know, 200 games in his career. All right. The last box I want to check here. We'll call this play caller slash overall, overall offensive innovation. We touched on that a little bit when we were talking about the RPO's and some of these schematic advantages the teams had created. But Derek, when you were looking back at some of the play callers and the through lines between them with these guys, what stood out to you? I think obviously having a good, like a generally good play caller is going to help any of these guys. But to me, the biggest example of success stories were the guys who, when they came into the league, it was very clear that they were going to need some sort of like adaptation to the normal NFL standard or meta to make them work. And the guys who figured that out, like the coaches who helped figure that out, I think, are the coolest stories.

Like, Lamar Jackson, obviously, like, when he came into the league, the way they, like, turned into this pistol, gun running 12 and 13 personnel offense. It was so like, it was a Georgia, it was like a Georgia tech version of what you would do in the NFL. And it was incredible. Their offensive coordinator the year before was Marty Morningwick. Yes. Old school. Yes. They went from a guy who would suit, yes.

And like, they completely went into embracing what Lamar Jackson could be. And it helped him after his rookie year, like doing that as a rookie and then into his second year, it really helped him grow into this player and passer who is now, I think one of the best pocket passing players in the league. But it helped buy him that time, kind of like you mentioned earlier, to get there. It was like a segue. Another good example. Like Carson once, like you mentioned with the RPO stuff, they were kind of on the forefront of

really incorporating that stuff into the NFL. And I think they were really good at that. And then I think they really embraced like gun, dropback stuff in general because a lot of what they would do was Carson go back there. One, two, three. If you don't like what you see, run. And they really just, yes. Snag.

Snag over and over and over. Boom, boom, boom. If you don't like it, get out of there. And that's fine because they had, um, they designed it really well. And then they had a really good offensive line that gave Carson Wentz these outlets to get out of the pocket and just go run for whatever he did that year. And I think that helped a lot. Snag is a very basic passing concept for those people in the audience who don't know what that is.

So it's something they would run all the time. It's a hitch, a flat in a corner. Everybody runs it. Some more than others, though. Yeah. The Peterson guy's a little bit more than others. RG3, I think you can go back to you. Oh, yeah.

That's a very good example. Yeah. Yeah. Of them embracing not even just the zone read, but pistol. Like teams weren't doing it. Like you got around that era like the the Peyton Manning Broncos were doing it. But that was like a very different. That was more just because Peyton wanted to like simulate under center.

But he needed to be in the gun because he was an old man. He couldn't move. Yeah, he couldn't move. And Kubiak was like, we're running zone. God damn it. Exactly. And they had to be in the pistol. Let's figure this out.

Innovation is often spurned by people who just don't want to do shit because they're too lazy. Yes. It's spurned by that or or accidents. Like Brett Farr basically inventing the RPO because he was like, that Slat will be open if he brought him back side. Just shit like that. And then, yeah, I think those are kind of the most interesting examples to me. Like there are other good examples of just like normal good coordinators who have helped young guys. But to me, the most interesting ones where it was like, this guy needs a little bit of, you know, a little bit of help, a little bit of a different flavor.

You know, we just talked about Tua, like them embracing the RPO Alabama offense with him. I think it's helped a lot. Just those guys where it took a little bit extra, a little bit something different, and teams were willing to embrace it to bridge them to being normal pocket passers, I think that was like, I think that was the biggest thing. I think there are even more examples of that. I mean, what Joe Burroughs' offense was early in his time in Cincinnati was like, we're just going to run the LSU shit because we know you can.

And we don't have the ability to protect anything else. So we're just going to talk about 989. They ran out at LSU. It was the same play over and over. They just did it again. That's a good example to me. Josh Allen, I mean, the amount of our. P.

They ran in Buffalo. And the Bills. And the QB run game. Yes. And the QB run game is a big part of that. Obviously, the QB run game with Cam is a huge part of that when he got there. I don't think that Rob Chisinski was necessarily a QB run heavy guy in the years before

Cam Newton arrived. But the one that the Josh Allen bills are such an interesting case study in this entire exercise. Because with a lot of these, it's like, okay, one year we feel the catalyst, right? It's either good immediately. or like in year two, all of these reinforcements come and it all clicks into place. Trevor Lawrence being a very good example, right? Year one is awful.

Year two, it clicks into place. We get Doug Peterson. We get some better pass catchers. We're off to the races. The Rams are, again, we mentioned this. The Rams are the same thing. McVeigh comes in year two, Woods, Cup, Whitworth, we're off to the races. The bills weren't like that.

Like, the bills changes didn't come all at once. The first year, obviously, the receivers are, you can't even name them. I mean, it was just like, what was that guy's name? Robert Foster. Robert Foster was like the best player on the 2018 bills. It was only because Daibel coached him at Alabama. That was it. It was like, I'll draft a free agent.

Sure, bring him in, bring him in. That's where we were out with the 2018 bills. And then in 2019, you bring in John Brown and Cole Beasley. But then in 2020, it's the Diggs thing along with the schematic transformation that they underwent. I mean, Pat DeMarco has told me the story where they got. to spring ball that year. And the table just comes with like a new stack of stuff that they had never done before. He's just like, the offense is different now.

And so watching them do it sequentially like that, that's interesting as a case study and potentially an optimistic viewpoint for some of these teams that maybe don't have it all right away. It's like you can do it step by step. But for a lot of these other teams, it happened immediately. And I think, or it came in year two with these kind of ideas and tweak schematically that you're talking about, Derek. Yeah. And I was going to say even not even guys that had a, you know, the super successes,

but maybe improvement like a guy like Daniel Jones last year, getting a guy like Kafka who was like, okay, you're good at throwing over routes. Okay, you're going to throw on these couple routes. Okay, let's just spam them. And that's kind of what they did with the bills with Josh Allen. They're like, okay, you are you, okay, are you comfortable with everything? No. You're comfortable with these couple things. Okay, let's lean into that. And then let's see what can extrapolate from that. And, you know, the other one, too, is that I love that we brought it up already with Lamar and actually what Greg Roman did. And I mentioned Kaepernick too. And that whole blend of the RG3 with Shanahan using the pistol, using the zone read, but still implementing his play action concepts off of those looks.

So it's kind of cool when you, that's like the ultimate example, a guy blending his scheme, the try and true concepts and blending it and modernizing it. And it all happened because when we talk about innovation, because Colin Kaepernick at Nevada used the freaking pistol because they were trying to get an under center run game, but he couldn't take under center snap. So they try to figure it out. And then all a sudden that implements and goes into the league. I always thought that was just a cool

thing. But getting these guys and what they are conducive and what they are good at, Tana Hill is a guy that's always going to stand out my mind. Tana Hill with Adam Gase, they were spread, one by three formations, some RPO stuff, but just like all this drop back, you know, it was Adam Gase going like, yeah, you know, Peyton Manning could do this.

Let's see you, Ryan Tannhill, former wide receiver. Let's see you do this. 20 quarterback starts into your career. Yeah, let's do this, buddy. Yeah, hey, wait, check the protection. What's shift everything around? Yeah, no. And then all of a sudden he gets to Tennessee.

Point shoot, baby. Oh, yeah. Play action, stand strong in the pocket and let it rip, buddy. And he's really good at that. Who do? But I didn't know that. And all of a sudden, you got into a place and a scheme that made sense for what they want to do.

And like you guys are saying with the QB run concepts. And I think that is why a bar has risen on some of these athletic guys. Some of these play cards are comfortable using the QB run concepts where even 10 years ago, it was like, they only can handle five touches. And now, well, helps when you have a guy like Josh Allen who's 250 and it can do all that stuff. But it's really cool to see these play callers, these modern play colors, implement that more often as opposed to just a gimmick.

And actually it's a real staple of their offense. It's a floor raiser and it's a time buyer. And that's important. And as somebody who is heavily invested in this development plan right now, I've been watching a lot of it up close over the past year. And I think that there's a lot of credence to it. So along with the innovation aspects, and I think that Daniel Jones is such a perfect example, Nate,

of how important the play caller is in this entire overall formula, right? They didn't have the receivers. They have a very good left tackle. But the play caller was the transformative part of that. Two, it's a little bit harder to extricate because they also got Tyree Kill the same year that they got the play caller. But I think Mike McDaniel is a very important part of this. But with a lot of these guys that have had the success over time in the first three, four seasons, the stability is also one of the things I think is the most important.

Almost all of them had the same play caller for three, four seasons at the start of this entire thing, along with that guy getting a good play caller. The other examples where somebody was hired away, they had a ready-made report. placement in the building. The quarterback coach often became the offensive coordinator, so the voices didn't change. Kim is the first example of that. Mike Shula was the quarterback's coach. She didn't get tired away. Shula's not the coordinator. Same voices in his year. So it always was that. But then you go through all these other ones. Daryl Beville was there for years with Russell Wilson. Years.

Carson Wentz had Doug Peterson. What that helps of the head coach is the guy. Jared Gough had Sean McVay. Dak Prescott had Scott Linahan and Jason Garrett and Kellan. more through that entire stretch. Deshawn Watson had Bill O'Brien. We can talk about whether that's a good or bad thing. A little bit of both, I guess. A little bit of both. Yeah, we'll call me.

We'll call me. Lamar Jackson had Greg Roman, like we've talked about, that nothing changed. Everything was able to you could build on it. Patrick Mahomes obviously has Andy Reid. Josh Allen had Brian Dable for years. You imagine Brian Dable gets hired away after 2018 for like whatever reason? And you get a new play caller with Josh Allen or even two years in. It's like, oh, that guy's doing some interesting stuff.

And then you have to change it all. They never had to do that. The same is true with Joe Burrow. Joe Burroughs had Zach Taylor and Brian Callahan in his ear. And Dan pitcher, his quarterback's coach. Nothing has changed for years. The line coach is the same. They've been able to build on it.

And the example counter to this, which again, this exercise made me appreciate what he's done even more. Justin Herbert is not this. He had staking year one. Then they go to Joe Barty, year three and four. And now he's on play caller number three. So, and combined that with the offensive line, Sam Tevey was his last. left tackle and that Dan Feeney and Forrest Lant played a thousand snaps. Justin Herbert's rookie year. Oh my gosh. So Justin Herbert, good player. Good player. Just overcome. Very good player.

What is they say? Raise, raise everybody around him. Yeah, I think he does that. I think that's what's a good quarterback does. So that's, it brings me to kind of the final consideration here is where are these teams that could be drafting quarterbacks fall into this conversation. Okay. The Panthers, they have Frank Greke. Yes. Right. So like they are, they're set like that. He's going to be there. The ability, quality, not a lot of questions going on there. If I'm blaming what happened on the Colts last season, it's the quarterback falling apart and the offensive line, the bottom falling out of that.

Hey, you have Mr. the Frank Wright truther on this on the show right now. Oh, that's right. That's right. Derek is Derek. Like, I'm a fan, but Derek is a super fan. Shane Steichen is with the Colts. I love that. Few guys I have more faith in.

Let's say they draft Anthony Richardson, him being able to make Anthony Richardson work there with Shane Stuyken is done. Texans is interesting. interesting, right? We don't know shit about Bobby Sloick. You know, maybe he's the next guy in this group and it's going to go great, but it's certainly a question mark now because we've never seen it before. Raiders have Josh McDaniels and the Lions have Ben Johnson.

Seahawks, Shane Waldron's done a pretty solid job, I think, with them, especially last year when you got to see what he could do without Russ. So the lions and the Seahawks aren't really worth talking about that much here in terms of which boxes they check because, in my opinion, they check all the boxes. That's why they're such interesting quarterback destinations for me. Yes. Yeah, I know I want to, Anthony Richardson with either of those would be magic. It would be really, really nice and idealistic.

But I mean, the Panthers are, we've talked about this is a great situation for whatever guy. If they stay at number one, of course I have to say that, but they are going to. Let's be honest. It is that I think that's such a great situation, whoever plops in there. I don't care which quarterback they decide. It's the offense line, play caller, enough pass catchers. Like this whole episode might as well be like. Why the Panthers are a good situation to drop a rookie quarterback into.

That's basically what they have done, I think, for whatever guy they decide to select. This could be a whole other podcast. But there's one connection point with a lot of these guys that we're talking about here that have been successes. And the Panthers fall into this category as well. How many of these teams actually were picking in the top five? Okay. The Seahawks got Russell Wilson in the third round. The Eagles traded up for Carson Wentz.

Rams traded up for Jared Gough. The deck price guy got taken in the fourth round. The Texans traded up for Deshaun Watson. The chiefs traded up for Patrick Mahomes. Amar Jackson was the 32nd pick. Josh Allen required two trades up. Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert were both taken in the top five. Huh.

That's not very money, actually, in the top five. Yeah. And the Herbert one's a unique one too because they had, I mean, typical chargers, bad luck and everything like that. They already had somebody. But they had a lot of place. They had Keenan Allen. They had Keenan Allen and Hunter Henry and Austin Eckler.

They had players. I know. So that's why that's one even a unique one too. And even the Bengals like, yeah, the Bengals had obviously a horrible year, but they had a history of like being a pretty competitive and good football organization. That's fair. The Bengals, we shouldn't learn lessons from the Bengals in this exercise. All the things that fell into place for the Bengals to be able to do this is fucking insane.

Like, it's absolutely insane. It's good for that. Every defense of signing working out amazing. Yes, they did a great job. They deserve a lot of credit. Yes, exactly. serve a lot of credit, but they are in a different circumstance than a lot of these other teams. We talk about idealistic situations. How about when Andy Dalton became the quarterback with the Bengals,

how good that the offensive line and the past catchers were for him. Second round pick with a great situation around him. Derek Carr, second round pick. Like, you know, yeah, no, that that's a very, very good point, actually. I, this is, again, we can get it. We got traded out. We can have a larger conversation about this, but it's kind of an anti-tanking thing where, right. If you are so bad that you're actually getting the number one pick, you're going to probably be set up for that quarterback to fail. You need to do so much for that to work out. We saw how bad it was in year one for the Jags,

and again, all the things that had to fall in line for Joe Burrow and the Bengals. But the Panthers being a team that was picking ninth, but actually it was probably better than that last year. The beginning of the season was so bad. Steve Wilkes comes in. They correct course. They're still picking ninth. They trade up, and their circumstances for the guy they're going to draft are much better.

than a lot of these teams that are typically picking number one overall. So just probably shouldn't have wasted that idea the last five minutes of an hour and 15 minute long show. But I do think it's an interesting consideration when you're thinking about the overall circumstances these guys get dropped into. No, I think so because like I had even in my note kind of listed out like what of these categories that we're talking about does each quarterback specifically need? Because you know, like we were saying earlier, like did Burrow need a great center?

Probably not. But he maybe needed the past catchers. Like different guys just need different stuff. with the Panthers, no matter which quarterback or which need it is, it's there. Like the offensive line is going to be fine. I think Frank Reich, in terms of any of the guys that these rookies are walking into, I think is by far the best offensive play caller. I still think even after how bad last year was, I still think he's the top 10 NFL play caller.

Like, he's just a guy who's going to get the quarterback to understand where the ball needs to go very well. And I think that's going to really help basically any of these young guys. And like, that would even be one of my last points is like just, you know, we talked about it with the center, like helping set the protections and make you feel comfortable with the pocket and stuff. Having like real quarterback guidance on the coaching staff, not just like a, you know, a quarterback coach who has experience or whatever, but with them having a guy like Frank Reich who was an NFL quarterback has experience already, you know, helping younger quarterbacks or even better in quarterbacks play better than I think we had previously seen them.

And then having Josh McCown on staff who like, he's very new to this, but he's a very fresh NFL, like he's very fresh off of being a quarterback in the league. And that type of guidance and veteranship, I think really goes a long way. Like, we saw it with, I mean, we saw it last year a little bit with the Jaguards and Doug Peterson, but we saw it even with Peterson before, like we mentioned with Wentz. Like, they had a billion guys who just had a bunch of experience, either playing or coaching quarterbacks at a high level. Yes, yes, exactly.

Frank Frank was, he's done this before. So I think just like that presence really, really helps. And I think some of these other teams kind of have it in certain spots, but like the Panthers have that type of leadership. like, veteranship in a way that none of these other rookie spots really do. Yeah. I agree.

I mean, I mean, shit. Dak stepped in and that was because Tony Roma got hurt. Doesn't hurt to have Tony Romo in your room, though. It's like you're providing ideas. He still wants to win. I mean, absolutely.

That's why we've talked, this whole show is about circumstances and everything, but that cannot be understated enough about how much that QB coach, offensive coordinator, or whatever play caller it is, and maybe even a backup quarterback that can, bounce ideas off of. And that's what Josh McCown as a player was basically a player coach by the end of his career. Like that cannot be discounted enough because that is something or or underrated enough.

It cannot be overstated enough. I'm sorry. But that is something that it matters. It really does because these guys need ideas to bounce off of and sometimes it can't always be the coach. Can be the coach. Sometimes it has to be the backup quarterback, but it does matter. And like the opposite example is Mack Jones. Like they had some of the good stuff the first And then the second year, they're like, oh, we're going to make Matt Patricia the offensive coordinator, doesn't know anything about quarterbacks. We're going to make Joe Judge the quarterback coach, doesn't know anything about quarterbacks. We don't have an offensive or we don't have an offensive head coach. Like, obviously, Bill is the goat, but he's not a quarterback's guy necessarily.

They just completely scrapped his support system. And it's like, well, what is he, what is he supposed to be working with? That's a big shell shock when you go from previously having Josh McDaniels. It's a very different, yes. It's a very different support system you have. Think about all the turnover that the dolphins had, then multiple offensive coordinators. for a couple years. I went through five offensive line coaches.

Two at the same time. And just how bad that was. Yeah, they had two offensive line coach. They had two officer coordinators and went through four offensive line coaches, all the turnover there. Think about what happened with Daniel Jones and all the play calling nonsense there and just the lack of stability that they had. I mean, that stuff is very real.

And then the other one is the Jets. Remember, because the Jets, they had Greg Knapp as their quarterback coach and then he passed away before the season and they didn't have a veteran backup. So Zach Wilson's kind of sitting there. They brought in John Beck to kind of like give them stability. you like these things i think do really matter and so just i think the biggest takeaway kind of the last note on this is you need a lot that these guys it's very very very few guys are going to transcend this you know like i tweet earlier today just how crazy it is to think about i did a lot of memory

wrote stuff today obviously going back through this thinking about patrick mahomes having one career start and coming in to have the season he did in 2018 just imagine that i mean just how crazy it is We didn't even know who he was coming into week one of that season. He had one game that we had seen him. I remember sitting at a bar before the season started. My buddy was like, Patrick Mahomes is an interesting MVP bet. And I was like, yeah, it'd be crazy, but yeah, it's an interesting one of, say the least. And he throws 50 touchdowns.

It's one of the greatest season he's ever seen. Think about what we're talking about here. He had Travis Kelsey and Tyree Kill and Andy Reid and Mitch Moore and two starting tackles. He had a year we sat on the bench. Think about how many things had to fall into place for him to have that season. I mean, even Justin Herbert, who had pretty shitty circumstances, and you're one, even though the play caller changed, he still had Shane Steichen, who clearly has shown to be very, very good at this job.

He still had Keenan Allen. I got to build the passing game through. So I think my main takeaway here is it's great to have everything. But if we're doing it in three categories, stability up on play caller, offensive line, pass catchers, you need two or three. If you don't have two of the three, it's almost a non-starter. So you need to make sure that your building. that infrastructure for this guy, whoever he is, that you were about to drop in here.

Yeah, that's why I'm scared about all this Titans talk about them moving up. Oh, my God. That they are negative one out of three. I think with that, I mean, you just have to sit them. I remember a conversation I had and kind of, again, one of the last things here, that 2016 Rams team that we talk about. Okay. In 2017, Greg Olson was the Rams offensive, or was the quarterback's coach for that

Ram's team when he came in with McVeigh. I remember talking to him about golf and that rookie season, how bad that year was. And I've told the story before, but he said, you want to make sure that they play enough to get experience, but they don't play long enough in those circumstances to develop scar tissue. And seven games for golf in that 2016 season was enough for him to kind of split that difference. He got to play, but it wasn't long enough to develop scar tissue. If you drop a rookie quarterback in week one into those Titan circumstances or in week four, scar tissue's coming. I just think you have to understand what the timeline is there. You know, you're drafting the top 10.

You can maybe go get someone. There aren't that many teams that are going to be hunting for that Will Levis type with the sixth, seventh overall pick. The Raiders don't like him. Maybe this is your best shot. But I think you've got to be real careful about the timeline and about when you're putting this player into that position. And not every quarterback has the mindset that Jared Gough is. You know, Jericho's not a perfect quarterback. But the one thing is he's tough.

He's tough. He's tough. Yeah. And I mean that because he's, he's willing to get up and forget whatever that last play was. Yes. I actually talked to Dan Orgelowski about this. We were just laughing that like him and I don't have that mindset.

We remembered all our bad plays. And we remember getting hit. We like that, but golf just has that mindset. He's like, oh, next play, whatever. And not every guy has that. And that's just saying that like everybody's different. And that's why these situations matter. Just help him out because you never know what you're getting with these guys.

Jared Goff deserves so much credit for the shit that he's pulled himself through in his career. I remember seeing him talking. seeing him talking to him after that Super Bowl. He just got the shit kicked out of him that game. I mean, just he was bruised and bleeding and just like that guy, he got shipped off to Siberia

as like a throw in that trade and everyone thought we ever hear from him again. He's playing well. Like, that's another thing with these guys I think is so underrated is mental toughness, not only in a play-to-play, mistake-to-mistake level, but on a big picture level, like your ability to work through these fallow periods

in your career. Not everyone is wired like that. And it takes a lot to get through those stretches. And Jared Gough, I think, has done a very good job of coming out on the other side. So, absolutely. One little bit of Jared Gough appreciation before we end up the podcast. Jared Gough, Greg Roman, got some love. I mean, weird day. You know, you fucking heart it is to be even like a relatively successful member of the NFL world as a quarterback or play caller? Like, we can take pot shots and make jokes about some of these guys every once in a while. Like, it's hard. What they've done is very impressive. Yes, it is. I always want to make sure that these guys are really good at what they do. It's

just that, you know, there's a one's even better, which is remarkable as well. Some of them. They get to a ceiling. I think that's important to understand. All right. Derek, this is fun as hell, man. Really appreciate you coming on and do this with us. We will absolutely be doing it again some time. Yeah, this was amazing. Very glad to be on again. This is, uh, hopefully don't have as many bad takes as I did last time like the Matt Ride one. We're fine. We've, we've forgotten that the AFC South Possible. This was a lessons episode. I was a little bit worried when you were getting into the Frank Reg appreciate it. So I was like, uh-oh, he's going down this road again.

No, no, no, no. Uh-oh, here we go again. That's all we got for today. We will be back on Monday. So please come back and hang out with us. In the meantime, please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice, if you would. If you listen on Apple Podcast, go let us know that you like the show. It would mean a lot to me if you did.

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