The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - How the Buccaneers & Chiefs were built with Greg Auman & Nate Taylor

Episode Date: February 3, 2021

What steps did the Buccaneers and Chiefs take in 2020 to help them reach the Super Bowl? The Athletic's Bucs and Chiefs writers Greg Auman and Nate Taylor join Robert Mays for an extended deep dive into the philosophy of how both teams were built and takeaways for teams around the NFL.0:00-38:34 - Greg Auman / Bucs38:34-End - Nate Taylor / Chiefs Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Fun show for you guys. Nate Taylor is going to be joining us a little bit later to talk about how the Chiefs got here and the path they followed to the Super Bowl. Before that, though, we're going to talk about

how the Bucks got here with the Athletics Bucks writer, Greg Amma. Greg, how you doing, man? Doing well. It's Super Bowl Week. It's fun to talk. It is Super Bowl Week. It's been funny. I've heard your name on several Zooms this week. That's kind of how we've been interacting is just sitting at the computer watching the same person but in different places.

That's how we've all been spending our time. Anytime I just get to see a face, it's exciting. I can't imagine how awkward it is for them. Like they just go into this room. They sit down behind a backdrop and they just have all of these faceless voices asking them questions. Well, and even in the terrible spectrum of Zoom interaction, okay, at least they've had being able to see our faces. as we have. Exactly. So Brady was like legit bummed that he had this century disadvantage where he's in, he's just looking. He's like, I can't see them. Can they see me? It's so weird. And also just this is way into that baseball. No one cares. But typically in a Zoom, you can see all the people in the Zoom and who has their hands raised. But in this platform, you can't. So you have no idea where you are in line. You have no idea when your turn is coming. You're just kind of sitting there waiting. It's such a bummer because I've said this before. Super Bowl week. is amazing. For two days every single week, you have all the assistant coaches at a table,

just sitting there. And you can go ask them whatever you want. If you want to do something about an offensive lineman and you want to ask how a specific play works, you can pull up your phone, be like, yeah, when you guys did this in week seven, what were you thinking? And these guys typically aren't available with that sort of just openness. And so it's really a fun time to learn and talk about the game. And that is the least important thing. But it still is a bummer. when you consider everything else going on right now. But it's still a bummer that that is just not a part of this week because I look forward to it so much every year because of that.

This is my seventh one. And to not have that, it just said. It makes it a little bit less of an experience. I told somebody it's like watching the circus on TV to where you're like, oh, that elephant must really smell bad, but I don't know. Something is lost in translation for sure. There's no doubt about that. So what I wanted to talk about with you and Nate is I,

Obviously, we're going to talk so much about the game between now and Sunday. And that's really a lot of the discourse over the course of this week. But I'm always a fan of exploring how these teams got here. My buddy Greg Bishop, who writes for Sports Illustrated. Every year, that's the Sports Illustrated cover story for the Super Bowl. They do this big kind of look back and how the teams were built. I always enjoy that. And I thought that you and Nate both had such great insight into that and kind of had all the context for the lead-up to how this team got to this game.

So I have like a set of criteria I wanted to go through with you here. And this first one is going to be, I think, a pretty obvious answer, but I really do want to dig into it. So what would you say is the most important offseason move the 2020 Buccaneers made? Yeah, kind of the big domino here would be the signing of one Tom Brady from the Patriots. I don't know if you read much about that. But yeah, that sets everything else in motion. You get Brady, you get Gruncowski, you get Leonard Furnett, you get Antonio Brown. you get five time prime time football games you get a playoff birth for the first time in 13 years

everything else kind of comes from that what do you think is and obviously it's such a weird year you're not in the locker room but what would you think is the most understated impact that he's had the kind of the way that he's permeated the building and affected things in a way that by having these conversations with everybody you've gotten a sense up but might be hard to see from the outside i think honestly what i don't think i expected is how well he interacts with everybody in the locker room. And this honestly was something we had heard about James Winston, but I wrote a whole story in August with a guy named John Hurst, who's an undrafted rookie free agent receiver, never played. He's on the Chargers practice squad now.

Like, Brady had a nickname for him. He's not even among the top 53, really. But his name's John Hurst. So Brady, old guy, calls him crazy legs as a nod to Elroy Hirsch. Jesus. Brady's 85 years old. Right. And no, again, no 22-year-old knows who the hell Elroy Hirsch is. But I, But to me, it was like the indication of, wow, this guy really knows. It's not like you even know everybody's name. And for John Hirst, it was like, wow, Tom Brady knows me enough to have a nickname for me. And I think he's done that.

I mean, Brady was even kind of lamenting last week that one of the downsides of COVID isolation is that you're pretty much limited to your position group in downtime. Yeah. So he said like, he doesn't like that the backup linebackers and defensive backs are guys he doesn't know as well because he hasn't been in meetings with him as often. And again, I just think the social aspect of I'm a six-time Super Bowl winner. I'm the greatest, but I care about you. I want to know how your day was. And his confidence rubs off, his ridiculous attention to detail, his work ethic, his coming in early, all these things. We kind of wondered in the summer, like, are the bucks going to

rub off on Tom Brady or vice versa? And it's very much been the positive osmosis of his postseason success. becoming their postseason success. As you've had all the conversations and things have trickled out over the course of the year, when you have success, teams are more apt to talk about this stuff and kind of pull the curtain back a little bit, what would you say was the number one kind of determining factor as to why he landed in Tampa compared to any other destination? I think of the realistic options for him, honestly,

one thing that helped was the geography, the logistics of being on the East Coast. His son, Jack lives in New York City. I don't think he wanted to be out west and be so far removed. So Tampa was warm weather. It was in the NFC, which is a change of pace. It gave him easy access to family there. He landed Derek Jeter's mansion in Tampa on Davis, Ireland, for rent. This is a massive place that's got jet skis.

He bought a 40-foot boat just to be all the more Florida man here. No, and I think he loved the weapons he had. You think about how long it's been since he really had Pro Bowl caliber receivers in New England. He had two of them here. I mean, Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, you add Grontkowski. I think Bruce Ariens as a coach certainly had good recommendations from guys like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck and other quarterbacks that had developed with him, Ben Rothesberger. That didn't hurt.

The one other thing I wanted to ask you, because this had been something that was such a talking point all year was the interaction between him and Bruce. And not only privately, but publicly, the things that Bruce would say in kind of the discourse into the media. How would you say the kind of tenor of the conversation between them and about one another has changed over the course of the year. I think in giving themselves kind of four months to figure each other out, there's a comfort level that wasn't always there.

I don't think things were ever fractured. I don't think it was ever a chasm between coaching quarterback like some people. I think Brady people were a little bit surprised by how honest Bruce is and how blunt Bruce is in criticizing his players publicly. They didn't have that with Belichick. I think Tom knew what he was getting into there. And I think there was a little bit, there was maybe one week, I think, after the Bears loss maybe, where things were a little bit frosty, where I had asked one time about the criticism. And Tom just had a very, Tom's usually good at kind of not answering things in a very polite facade kind of way.

He's done this for a long time. Seriously, he's not answered questions for 20 years. So he had his very staccato. He's the coach. I'm the player. We're trying to win games. And it was just like this, oh, wow, I think Tom's actually a little bit bothered there. Like he, the usual veneer was gone for a second.

But honestly, they got out of that. And once you made it to the bye week and then they rolled from there and it's all just been kumbaya since then. It's kind of funny. I mean, the conversation that's had with Bruce in the past, he'll really say anything. I mean, it's just, he'll say anything. There is very little, there's not a filter mechanism between what his brain thinks and what his mouth says. And that can take a little bit to get used to. And I'm sure if you're not, then there's an acclamation period.

But we were talking to Ryan Lindley earlier this week about it. And it feels like after a certain amount of time, you almost appreciate it. Because there's just no mystery about where you stand. And I'm sure over time, even if that's a little bit jarring for people at first, there is a comfort level associated with it later on because you don't go home wondering ever. I came on. I joined the athletic in fall of 18. And then he signed on January 19.

So I had like 19 years in newspapers where obviously you're not printing expletives at all. And you're an ass becomes butt and you kind of say sort of and all these kind of things. And then I get to the athletic and they have like a total green light to write anything you want. And that happens while I have a coach who drops MFs like every other day and we'll, I don't even know what I can stay in this podcast, but speaks freely. You can say whatever you want. I can quote him exactly as he says. It's just the perfect coach to have if you have the right.

to the full vocabulary of all the things coaches can say. So you talked about the Bears game. I'm curious, we're going a little out of order here. I'm curious what you think was kind of the low point of this season, the moment where you and everyone else kind of sat back and thought, well, it was a good idea, but

it's not going to work in 2020. Maybe this is going to take a little while to catch. Yeah, and it wasn't, the Bears was probably the worst loss because it's just a team they knew they could have beaten and should have beaten. They were kind of injured that game. I still can't believe it happened. It's still very weird to me at that night happened.

I remember that was at a point, it was early in the season, and I had friends over, and we watched it outside on my deck in my house, because I wanted to watch the Bears game with friends, but couldn't have them in my house. So that's what we did. We sat there,

we sat outside with like blankets and watched the game. And I was sitting there like, I don't think the Bears are good, but they're five and one. Like, I have no idea what's going on. Right. That was bad.

That was almost like right off bad. And then when they lost to them, I mean, they lost the same to 38 to 3. It was 31, nothing at the head. They weren't on the same field with them. And it was either that week, the next week, I kind of wrote like,

what if the bucks are just a good team and not a great team? Like, what if they just take a baby step forward and they go from seven and nine to nine and seven, and that's it. And that seemed like a real possibility. I mean, like losing by three to the Rams and the chiefs in itself isn't anything shameful. They're seven and five. And they're facing like a Vikings team that's won like five of six or something. If they lose that game, they're on the outside looking.

of the playoffs. And luckily, that's kind of right where things all solved themselves and all the pieces came locked together. And since then, it's been unquestionably the best they play. And it's interesting because I think you let's step off those teams. The Saints, the Rams, those two, I kind of think, are separate. They couldn't play well against good defenses. Every time they played against a good defense, even Chicago at that point was playing

very well defensively, it just seemed like, we've talked about it a lot on this show. They're so talented on offense. The offense was fairly simplistic. It was a let's roll the ball out. Our guys are better than yours. And they were playing against teams where their guys weren't significantly better than their opponent. It showed. It showed that they didn't have a lot of built-in advantages with the structure of the offense, everything.

And when their talent couldn't win out, they struggled. So what do you think was kind of that turning point eureka moment that allows things to click and have them kind of step outside of that kind of problem? The chemistry on offense came together in the last month. They had a December where they got to face just dogs at the end of the year. It was like Falcons, Lions, Falcons to finish the regular season, almost like a preseason kind of thing. And as a result, they just really clicked. I mean, they had like 11 touchdowns and 15 drives at one point.

Antonio Brown, who was nearly non-existent in his first five games, no touchdowns, not even 10 yards a catch, had five touchdowns in five games. and all the missing pieces were kind of coming together. They defensively, they found themselves. And then especially as the postseason came, they've been a ball hawking, takeaway crazy sack heavy defense that's absolutely closed out wins. I'm actually really looking back on it now, I think it was quietly important for Bruce to play the starters

the way that he did in week 17. Because they had been rolling so much. And that Falcon's defense had been playing better in the second half of the season. You'll think about what they did to the Chiefs not long before they played the Bucks in that week 17 game. And some of the things they found in that game, the play I'm thinking of specifically, is the one where Godwin motions over and takes it vertical up the left sideline and Brady just hits him with a perfect throw. And there were a few of those in that game. I think him and Godwin really showed off the chemistry they had developed in the back half of the year in that week 17 game.

And I think understanding it's better for us to play this game and keep this rolling was a quietly important thing for them to do. Yeah, and that Falcons game, if you remember, had this terrible specter of the Mike Evans injury that really put a cloud on things. I mean, like Mike Evans got that record in the first quarter, goes to catch touchdown, his leg gets jammed, and it, I mean, the, the poll that was cast over the stadium was tangible. I remember, yeah. And it's like you felt like fans couldn't even really celebrate touchdowns because it was like, is Mike Evans done to the year? Like, could Mike Evans have waited seven years to get to the playoffs and then hurt his knee in a meaningless game? the week before the playoffs. So what happened, though, is that Godwin stepped up and went crazy.

Antonio Brown had easily his best game. I think he had two touchdowns in that game. And everybody else stepped up. And you kind of saw that glimpse of why they brought in Antonio Brown was just in case Evans or Godwin got hurt and they still rolled. I mean, it's an offense. They lost Mike Evans and they still scored a crazy amount of point. I say that it was a really good move and it kept their momentum going.

But if Mike Evans actually had gotten hurt, it probably wouldn't have been worth the tradeoff. So I'm about two inches. away from sounding like an absolute moron with that. I think it felt like that week 13 by was honestly nicely timed for them. To have it that late in the season, typically you don't want that. But it feels like they really did have a chance to set back and recalibrate the offense a little bit. Talk about what they wanted to do.

When you've talked to people and watch them, do you think there are any specific tweaks that they were able to kind of sit back and consider during that off time that they've been able to implement here down the stretch? Not anything big. it almost seemed like in a basketball game when you call a time out just to get your opponent out of rhythm. Yeah. Because nothing was going right.

And it's like you just call the time out, two minutes, everybody relax, week off where you don't even really practice very much. It's funny. A lot of the things that smart people were saying they should do, they started doing. More motion, more play action, better commitment to the run game than they'd had, whether it was Jones or Fournette. All those things kind of came together. And then defensively, they,

they click better too. I mean, the first, the Viking scene wasn't that good. The Falcons game, they were down 17 nothing at the half in week 15 to the Falcons. Yeah. And that half time is really where like the switch was flipped. And then they score whatever, 31 in the second half of that Falcons game. And it's just bonkers from there. That's exactly why I wanted to do this podcast.

Because I totally would have forgotten that. They had that week 17 Falcons game where they could not protect at all. They were having so much trouble with pressures and everything else. and for whatever reason, they clicked in in the second half, and they've kind of been full speed ahead, like rocket ship ever since. So that moment was something where it clicked for them. When do you think it clicked for you?

When do you think when you were sitting there and watching this team and really sitting with them, do you think you understood this team can win the Super Bowl? I went into the postseason thinking it might be like one win, celebrate that one win. It's a big step. Now you can expect it next year. But going to New Orleans, I mean,

the Saints team was so built to give Drew Brees. a postseason, let him go out on top. They had... And they'd struggled so much against them. It wasn't as if you had to kind of imagine this scenario where their offense was going to have a hard time against the Saints. We'd had it so recently and so vividly that you envision them struggling more than they did. Right. If it was like middle school and there was a guy that had knocked you out with one punch, it's like you were going to his locker.

Okay. And you have no expect... I mean, you can say that the regular season doesn't matter. But, I mean, that was the worst hour, the worst, that first half was their worst football the year. And it didn't let up, 383. They kicked a field goal. It was like a mercy field goal to avoid a shutout. So to go from that to four turnovers and, you know, getting three picks against Drew Brees, this defense stepping up.

Once they did that, then you're going to Green Bay. And it's like, well, they beat the Packers by 28 points in the regular season. Of course they can win again as long as they play well. So winning in New Orleans is where you set. Like, what if they really do this? This could happen. And I've always said this about the Patriots. They had such a good understanding of the fact that after you get in, it's a series of one game tournaments every single week.

All you need to do is just keep winning and kind of orchestrate these game plans each week that allow you to win these games as these little independent worlds and then you move on to the next one. And it really does feel like maybe it's just because Tom Brady's there. but this team is kind of taken on a similar feel. It's like they get to Green Bay and it's like, well, it's just one game. Like, I mean, this team is talented. They absolutely could win it. And that's what it seemed like. You know, they didn't play lights out in that game.

Brady threw three interceptions, but you do just enough. You win and we'll get to what they need to do on Sunday in a bit. But this has the same exact feel. It's like, well, you know, are they as good as the chiefs? No, but they probably weren't as good as the Packers either. And they still managed to do it. And that's kind of the feel that they have right now. So we talked about the biggest move and kind of the overall.

and kind of the overall arc. What do you think in terms of personnel in offseason additions is the most underappreciated, overlooked move or addition they made this spring? In the playoffs, I think you can point to signing Leonard Fournette. And you would have never said that in December because from October to December, he was nearly irrelevant. Couldn't make any big plays at all. It was getting like two and a half yards of carry.

In week 14, they dressed LaShawn McCoy, who's done nothing all year. And Keishon Vaughn, who's a rookie with like 100 yards all season. season and dress them both ahead of Leonard Fournett. And it worked. And then to Fournette's benefit, Ronald Jones breaks his pinky and gets COVID and injuries his quad. And there's this month-long window where Fournette suddenly is the starter and totally embraced it and made the most of it and had two 100-yard games in the playoffs, had two huge plays in Green Bay. After that bomb to Godwin in Green Bay, he has that 20-year touchdown where he makes this beautiful inside spin, who dives into the end zone for a touchdown.

We all talk about the Brady to Scotty Miller deep ball right before halftime. That only happens because Fortinette caught a fourth and four ball for a first down to set it up with 13 seconds left in the half. So I think Fortnet is the guy that it looked for much of the season like, yeah, this is why the Jaguars cut this guy. He's just absolutely stepped up and given them an offensive balance when they were without a thousand-yard rusher and Ronald Jones. that's really been a difference in giving them some offensive balance and rhythm in the postseason. I'm sure it's because there's less stuff taking our attention and we're drilling down at a more granular level on these games. But the playoffs are always those moments where those little end of the roster moves that you made always shine so bright. And again, going back to the Patriots, just because we have such a backlog of games with them in the postseason.

That's where those moves always show up. Where you're sitting there being like, they traded a fifth round pick for Kyle Van Nuoy. like that kind of shit. It always came up with them over and over again. And that's how it feels with the bucks right now, where you have Fournet making these plays in the postseason. How Vita Valle played last week, where he's just a wrecking ball in all of these ways,

even though he's only playing 35 snaps, it's like, oh yeah, like the little tiny additions like that really matter. Like Jordan Whitehead making that play on the force fumble, it's just like the guys at the margins are so important in these games. And I think it really shines through. The other move that I would bring up, If we're just talking about, it's not overlooked because he was a first round pick, but this team had two holes coming into the season that it needed to fill.

That's it. They were so talented on offense. And when I was thinking about their roster, you think they need a right tackle. They need a starting right tackle. And to get the best tackle in this draft, which I think he has been in Worf's, and having him start from day one, having him be an all pro player, I don't think it can be overstated how important that's been for them. On the other side of the ball, when they drafted him, their receipts, and I'm very proud of them.

When they drafted Antoine Winfield Jr., I said that is the last thing their defense needed. They needed a playmaking safety. That's what they needed. They needed a guy who could take the ball away, just kind of add this volatility to what they did defensively, and that's exactly what he's been. And the fact that they had those two spots, and they drafted for need in two straight rounds, and they found star-level players in both cases, it just showed. you that every once in Ohio, when you want to win a championship, where you want to be the best

team, sometimes you need to get a little bit lucky. And that's exactly what happened to them in the draft this year. It was cool. Like in January last year, the athletic didn't send their Minnesota writer to the Outback Bowl. So I got to cover it. Like they asked me to cover the Outback Bowl. And I'm like, oh, sure, why not? You know, go get a Blumen Onion cover of college football game for old time sake. Sure, I'd love that. And I like went into that game thinking I was going to right Antoine Winfield. And the guy that I wrote about that day is the guy they took in the fifth round, Tyler Johnson, who's a stud. That's incredible. I had the luck to see two of their draft picks in their final game. And they both play. I mean, Winfield had such a great year. And I remember I'm

talking to his dad's agent, like during the game trying to figure out like, hey, is this his last game? Could I be writing about him going to NFL? I'm realizing he's coming here to now he play his entire season in Tampa, but to play a Super Bowl in Tampa on that field. Winfield is, has won more playoff games in the last month than his dad did in 14 years in the NFL. That's such a bummer because his dad was one of my favorite players of all time. His dad was such a product of a different era of football. Like that slot receiver in a cover two defense, just he is such a reminder of an era that no longer exists. He could play now, obviously.

But I just, he's so emblematic of what football back then was like. Sometimes when you look at what the Final Four rosters are comprised of, We did a little bit of this kind of recalibration with Teres Pellar last week. Sometimes you can read a little too far into it. But I do think the fact that both of these teams have that malleable playmaking, undersized former college football superstar in Tyrone Matthew and Antoine Winfield. I just believe so much that there's a ton of value in that guy. That's just shit-stirring chaos creator that's going to take the ball away from you on the other side of the ball.

It just feels like all the teams that get to this. game have at least one of those guys. Yeah, and Winfield, I think they've really just scratched the service of what he can do. Because I remember talking to Fleck the night that they drafted Winfield. And he said he covers like a corner. He hits like a linebacker. And he can cover ground like a center fielder because he just has all of those things. And you're never aware that he's a rookie.

There's no lost look. The Giants game is another bad game for the box. They almost lose that game. They're up eight. they let the giants go all the way down the field, two point conversion to win, and Winfield covers an incredible amount of space and basically runs into the receiver.

On the two point conversion, that's right. And they actually threw the flag. They threw the flag and then took it up and said, no, penalty occurred, which is a huge rate for Winfield, because instead of him being the scapegoat on what ends up like a overtime loss or something, he made the game winning play. But he covers a sick amount of ground to get there and break up the pass.

And he's done that all year. He's had, you go back to the Saints, and it's a very uncertain game in the second half. And Winfield just absolutely punches the ball loose from Jared Cook, and Devin White picks it up and takes to 20. And next thing you know, they're scoring. And all the momentum in the world is in the buck's favor from that point on. And Winfield has done that all year long. That's amazing. It's so true.

All right. Who is the most important player that we're not thinking about when you're considering where this team is and how they got here? I would think it has to start with Levanti, David, just because he's so underappreciated as a leader of this team, as kind of the heart of this team, perpetually underappreciated as like a Pro Bowl snub and all those kind of things, but just does everything they ask him to do on defense,

covers so much ground. Devin White is probably faster. Devin White has nine sacks, which is, you know, it's crazy for an inside linebacker. But I think Levante, David, just the reliable presence that he is in the middle of that defense, he had a big sack. I think at the end of the Washington game in the playoffs, had like a third down sack on their last drive to kind of close it out. You know, Levanti's been here since 2012, nine years, no playoff games. So when you think about people that are deserving of the success they're having right now, it has to start with him.

I completely agree. I've had a lot of conversations about him this week with people. People that coached him back in the day, people that played with him. And you really just forget how steady of a presence he's been for 10 years. And I've said it before on this podcast, and people give me shit about it. I don't really care. I think he's the most underrated defensive player of the last decade. If you go and you look at, this isn't a perfect stat, but if you go look at pro football reference in stathead,

and you sort of by approximate value since 2012, again, an imperfect statistic, but one that I think gives you a sense. I think he's 13th or 12th among defensive players. over the last 10 years. Every single other player in the top 15 has been to at least four Pro Bowls. He's been to one. He just got pinned in this position where he's up against Kikley,

he's up against Bobby Wagner, and he just was seen as less than those two every year. So if you look at Kikli, Kikli has like nine Pro Bowls will be a Hall of Famer, absolutely. It's going to be tough because in whatever, seven or eight years whenever. And Bobby Wagner, too, will. And Bobby Wagner's going to the Pro Bowl.

He's been all pro six years. Right. Lundit has one Pro Bowl and one All-Pro in his career. Thousand-tackles, 128 tackles for loss, 12 picks, 24 sacks, but has nothing to show for it in all the currencies that Canton looks at and the selection committee looks at for Hall of Fame. I totally agree. And the stats that always jump out to me,

there's one year in 2013 when he had five sacks and five interceptions. I think there have only been eight seasons in NFL history where players had five sacks and five interceptions in the same year. You know, the guys on that list, Darius Leonard did it recently, but everyone else is way back when. Wilbur Marshall did it for the Bears in 86. Brian Erlocker did it one year. Sean Springs did it one year. I mean, guys that were the best players in the NFL when they played.

And I think he has been that. And I just had a conversation with Gerald McCoy about it. I'm writing about Lavante David later this week. And people were curious. There's no way he moved as much. I had a conversation with Gerald McCoy. And McCoy brought up the fact that that first year, 2012, when he was a rookie.

Mason Foster was the defensive play caller. And Foster got hurt right before the season started. And Levanti had to call the defensive plays as a rookie from day one. And he was fine. He just had no issues with it whatsoever. And just that steadying presence. And what my favorite stat associated with him is if you look at the games in which he's played, he's been hurt a little bit, for the most part, he's been healthy.

But he plays over 98% of the snaps in the games where he's healthy. he never, ever comes off the field. And just that presence and being a guy who can do everything and be relied on to that degree, I just think it's impossible to overstate how good of a football player he's been over the last 10 years. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, like he had a hamstring. Like the third quarter of the Packers game, I guess he heard his hamstring. And he showed up on the injury report, like the off week by week injury report with a hamstring.

And there's just this like, wow, if they don't have Levante, David, like, you'd think the same way, like if Brady was out like, yeah, I'm not that it's going to happen for. And you just don't ascribe that to linebackers, but that's exactly the presence that he is. Have you gotten a sense for what kind of give back and forth there's been with him and White? Their old linebackers coach, Mark Duffner said that when he was working with Kwan, they had a really good rapport where he was just, some guys, they're really, they withhold. They play close to the vest with guys that are younger than them because they're insecure about their job. You don't have guaranteed contracts in the NFL. there isn't this, let me help everyone.

But with Kwan, he was an open book. It's like, this is how I study. This is how I watch things. What's the sense you've gotten for what the back and forth with him and Devin has been like? No, very positive. I mean, Devin is a different personality. Levanté is very even keel, very understated, very poised and careful in what he says. Devin White is absolutely 22 years old and twice as enthusiastic as it needs to be about everything in life.

But it's wonderful. And it's a good foil to Levanti. say because you'll see them. And like it was neat in that I think post game in Green Bay when they had like the mic'd up, you could really see Levanti being a kid for a minute and celebrating something. He's waited nine years to get to do. But yeah, Devin White, like I said, there's an interplay between the two of them. And it's kind of, it's not quite the old dog and the pup that wants to play all the time.

Because Levanti can still move and has plenty of speed. Don't get me wrong. But it's just there's an excitement and energy that Devin White wakes up with. that's hard to match. And I think there's an energy that comes with that. It's two different kinds of leadership right next to each other

and they work really well together because of that. Last Levante David thing before we move on. I think it's the craziest thing in the world that the three best off ball linebackers of a generation were taken in the same draft.

The fact that Keekly, Bobby Wagner and Levante David all went in the same draft and with Bobby Wagner and Devante David in the same round of the same draft, it's just such a strange, quirk associated with just talent influx in the NFL. Right. And then there's this thing in Tampa where

it's always like the guy you didn't draft that's the absolute thorn and the fans like, because the buck at the top of that draft took Mark Barron instead of Keekly. Yeah. And you have to tell them like, if you don't make that mistake, you don't get Levanté in the second round. So you have to embrace that mistake that was taking Mark

Barron instead of Keekly because it gave you Levanté David in the second round as like as good a draft steal as you can ask for at that point. Gerald McCoy, again, played with both of them. I think Gerald McCoy would tell you, they are a lot closer as players than other people from the outside would tend to think.

And he would know better than most. Kikley, insanely smart. The best linebacker I know at absolutely calling out the play as it's happening to where the opposing quarterback just has to hope that the rest of the defense can't process what Luke is telling them. But in terms of making plays on the field, I mean, Kikli is probably better at intercepting passes,

dropping back in coverage. But in terms of filling a stat sheet, in terms of being everywhere on a field, Levanti is right there with him. It's not the 8 to 1, 9 to 1, whatever the Pro Bowl scorecard is for those two. That's certainly right. So let's go to the coaching staff because this is a staff that has been talked about a lot. And rightfully so. When you think about the amount of minority just coaches in high-level positions

and the way that they're kind of pushing bucking trends, and being forward thinking and doing things the other team should be. Is there a member of that staff that over the course of the year, whether it's his position group or a conversation you've had with that person, that you think has had an outsized impact on this team that people probably aren't thinking or talking enough about? I mean, I think there's so much attention given on the buck staff to Todd Bowles and Byron Leithwich. As future head coach, I mean, Bowles has already been a head coach,

but as potential future head coaches, I think the next tier, Harold Goodwin is vastly underappreciate. He doesn't have a positional role. I think they call him run game coordinator. Kind of oversees the offensive line. But Goody has been with Ariens in Pittsburgh, in Indy, in Arizona, and he kind of goes with him. Bruce was saying yesterday in a Zoom that he might not take the buck's job if he doesn't know he can have Harold Goodwin on his staff. And the same thing goes for Byron.

He wouldn't have taken it if Byron couldn't have called plays. It was a condition upon him taking the job. And Bruce, I think, has done such a good job in him of delegating to these assistants and trusting these assistants. Todd Bowles is very much a second head coach, a head coach of the defense. But like I said, goody on offense is absolutely underappreciated as a, a guy that's not a play caller, is not the quarterback's coach, but probably as important as those positions, as those coaches are.

Defensively, Larry Foote's a really neat story in that he's younger than Tom Brady was like a freshman when Brady was a senior. And he's like a seventh year position coach in the NFL. And a really good guy that could be a coordinator next. It's like if you have one of these coaches splinters off to get their own staff before Bruce retires, I think Foote could very easily go with and be a defensive coordinator. Casey Rogers, the D-line coach,

was Todd Bowles' dec Coordinator with the Jets, so it could be him as well. But not only their future head coaches on this staff, I think they're really good coordinators that could come from this staff as well. And position coaches, just even mentioning Jay Rogers, having been a former coordinator,

they have so much competence at like every single level. And I remember talking to Bruce last summer about Byron. I did a story about Byron being the only black play caller in the NFL, which he still is. And Bruce said that, I asked him, I said, what's different now? Now that you're the head coach, you're not calling plays, he said that maybe like the first week or two, he was in offensive meetings.

And he eventually realized Byron can do this. And he just let him do it. And the trust he seems to have in those guys and just how much history has with so many of the guys on the staff and the delegation that he can do because of that. And his outsized role in personnel because of that now. It's just all of this stuff kind of comes together. And that's how you have teams like this that are on the precipice of a title. The single most amazing thing about the staff is the lifelong loyalty that they have to each other. Because, I mean, Bowles played for him at Temple.

Keith Armstrong played for him at Temple. Ross played for him at Temple. Clyde Crickson coached with it. It's like this 35-year reunion every day. And then like Nick Rapone, who's the safety's coach, played with him. He's a trip, man. That guy's a character. Nick's great.

Nick's great. But again, he's known Bruce for 50 years. Yeah. To where if there's the guy that you kind of know how he obviously. operates and what he'll tolerate from you and exactly how he gets a job done. 50 years together is outstanding. Again, I just wrote about Tom Moore. I love Tom Moore to death.

Tom Moore has like all these relationships with all these guys and won a Super Bowl in 1979 when Tom Brady was 15 months old. So all we do is talk about how old Brady is. And he's got 40 years on Tom Brady. So like I said, the connections on the staff are really special. I have two more things for you. When you think about this season, no matter how it, ends. I mean, I guess it'll depend on how it'll end. But when you think about this buck season,

what's the first thing that you'll think about? Just how much it changed the franchise. I mean, I was lucky enough where I got to cover their O2 season and the run they had. But that was kind of the end of the year. Like after that, they didn't want a playoff game again. They made the playoffs, but they just didn't really have good teams. And then, you know, as long as I've been around the team, it just hasn't been a winning team. It hasn't had the culture. They got close to making the playoffs in 16, but they really weren't a dominant team. So for them to instantly in one year change that and reset all the clocks. I mean, every year it was like how many years since they made the playoffs, how many years since they won in the playoffs, what they're picking in the draft, all the same conversations.

And this has changed all that. All the clocks are new in terms of how long it's been since. They're in a Super Bowl. And as crazy as it sounds, they have Tom Brady's your quarterback. back. You go back even a year and say that. I just tell you, yeah, I don't think he's leaving New England. And if he did, I don't think he's coming to Tampa. So that part of it is the most, I say it's somewhere between incredulous and incredible, but it's where it is. Last one. The Bucks will win this game, if what? If their defense, which gets turnovers from teams that don't commit turnovers, can do it with Patrick Mahomes and get, I'll say a third turnover. One or two, you can still overcome. But they, have to get takeaways from this chief's defense and not commit them themselves. All right. That makes total sense. When you're the underdog, you need those sort of swinging place.

So I totally get that. Greg Alman, thank you very much. Do you have anything you want to plug? Anything else you're working on this week that people should definitely check out? I mean, you're doing stuff all the time, but anything you're particularly excited about? Yeah, no, I've got a feature on Sean Murphy Bunting that's coming out. He's there at the corner of his head picks and all three playoff games and his mom and their

relationship. I got a big Bruce Ariens feature. Talk to Chuck Bagano, talk to his wife, talk to Brady. to lots of people just about Bruce called it the most rewarding season of his career. And I think that's a lot, a lot of years to beat out. So I thought that was a really strong statement. And just whatever else crazy comes out of Zooms and at a Super Bowl week here in the next five days. I think that the Bruce thing is I've talked with a lot of people about it. We've had Ryan Lilly on the show. We're going to have a couple more people, I think, to talk about Bruce. The thing that

really jumps out to me is he's somebody that's been in our minds for so long. But he waited a really, really a long time to become a head coach. It seems like he's been around for a while, but it's only 2013. He was in his 60s when he got that chance. And the fact that now he's right there on the doorstep and winning a Super Bowl changes everything for you. It's a really cool moment for somebody that a lot of people in the game really like. So I'm really excited about reading that and everyone else should be checking it out as well.

Greg, thank you very much for the time. And I was good to chat. We'll catch up with you later. Thanks, Robert. Take care. All right. I'm very excited now to welcome my good buddy, the Athletics Chiefs writer, Nate Taylor. how you doing, man? Good, Robert. Good, man. I feel like I'm kind of getting excited for this game,

but I just, you know, I want to act like I've actually been there before for once. Well, you have actually been there before, though. This is old hat for you now. It's kind of wild, you know, going around from Zoom to Zoom instead of just, you know, running with your, you know, not knowing who's in what direction. But yeah, this is a, this was kind of the expectation back on September 10th when the NFL season started, right? So what's been your favorite chief Zoom moment this week? Has anything happened that was particularly interesting or fun? I always love Steve Spagnolo, right?

Yeah. Kind of a under the radar guy, but gives you really good stuff. He walks into the Zoom and he understands that, hey, I'm supposed to see everybody's faces. Where's everybody's face? We were just talking about that with Greg. We were just talking about how weird it is. There are these disembodied voices coming at them every 10 seconds. It's so bizarre.

So it was really comforting when the moderator goes, okay, the next question is coming from Nate Taylor from the athletic. And I can kind of see him grin because he knows who I am. And he's like, hey, Nate. It's just, hey, I'm just here in my, you know, makeshift home office. You can't see me. I can barely see you. Let's talk about, you know, Blitz and Tom Brady.

You're going to do that a lot on Sunday? It's Spagnola is one of those guys that no matter how. many times you hear it, you're still not ready for the accent. Every single time it sneaks up on you. That's just like thick, thick Massachusetts accent. And every single time I've ever, I've ever talked to him, it's just like, oh, I'm not ready for this. And then it just comes out. It's like, man, that is a Massachusetts boy. All right. Let's get to a slightly altered set of questions to the one I ask, Greg. Because as it relates to the chief, some of these are not that appropriate and I was too lazy to come up with two specific sets of questions.

So we're just going to do a little tailoring, if you will. See what I did there? Yeah. All right. First one is going to be the same, though. If you're thinking about this offseason for the Chiefs, what do you think the most important offseason addition or move Kansas City made was? Can I do this in two categories?

I mean, one is like they signed the best player in the league to a 10-year contract. That is essentially- That doesn't count. That doesn't count. I was going to say because it's a 10-year deal that's more like six. That was the most important off-season move, but it wasn't an addition. Who is the most important thing person that was brought in? That's what I should have said.

There hasn't been a lot of turnover on this team, so it's a little bit harder. Yeah, this is where it gets tricky. There's no Tom Brady. Oh, you know, just the greatest quarterback of the Super Bowl era. I think the greatest addition to this team in like a very, I don't want to like weird way, but it kept things afloat in a manner that I didn't anticipate, and I'm sure that she used it neither. This team would not be 14 and 1 with Mahomes as its quarterback if Mike Rimmers isn't on the team. I mean, a very underrated signing where it's like, hey, can you

replace the swing tackle that used to be Cam Irving, which is now in Dallas? And, you know, you go through those guys when you have obviously a top heavy rock. But nobody could foresee Mitchell Schwartz having a back injury that basically wipes out his season because he was the most consistent, durable, right tackle in the league. And then Eric Fisher. Right tackle. Player in NFL history. Hey. I'm just saying, like, he played the most consecutive steps in the history of the league. It's him and Brett Farve and like, you know, Eli Manning.

Yeah, I mean, very good catch. You know, and I, it's been such a weird season that, like, I don't even think about Mitchell Schwartz anymore, which is kind of sad because he's so consistently great at football. And now the Chiefs are going to have to deal with, you know, Eric Fisher. And we all kind of knew Robert when he went down against the Buffalo Bills. That looks to be in Achilles. It is an Achilles. Who knows how long his timetable is going to be for next year.

But they're going to play a Super Bowl with Andrew Wiley as the right tackle. And Mike Rimmers, who didn't have a great day in 2015 to end the season with the Carolina Pan. but now he gets a shot at redemption. Pretty much protecting Patrick Mahomes' blindside. Because one thing that fans have to realize is the Chiefs drafted, I think, a pretty good prospect in Lucas Nyang in the third round. He could have been perhaps that backup tackle if you bring him along slowly throughout his rookie season of a maturation phase.

But, I mean, if you would have asked me this in August, there's no way I'm saying, Mike Rimmers. Maybe you say someone like Clyde Rizzolair. But I think for protecting your grandkids, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, your greatest asset. Mike Remmers has done an admiral job and he's going to have to do it one more time in the Super Bowl. I think it's actually a really good point because it brings up two kind of separate ideas. One, with these championship caliber rosters and especially the way that they've been built, the churn is always so important on the back end. And that spot, it almost

feels like close to veteran minimum experienced offensive linemen is going to be an annual kind of thing for this team because of how much money they're going to have and the turnover at that spot. Last year, it was Winsiewski. This year, it's Mike Remmers. It almost feels like that's a spot on the Chiefs roster. And when you're in this position, that's the exact type of thing you're going to have to do every single year. Those are the moves and those are where, that's where a guy like Brett Veach's mind is going to have to be in a similar way. The Patriots have come up a bunch on this podcast already.

But that's when you're winning championships every year. Those are the types of things that the Patriots had to do. And that's exactly where the Chiefs have to do. And that's exactly where the chiefs are. That is the position they now hold in the league. And Brett Veach is very clear about this whenever you would talk to him. Once we knew Patrick Mahomes was Patrick Mahomes, they're always going to have an advantage in that regard,

similar to what the Patriots had with Tom Brady. Hey, do you want to come play for a Hall of Fame coach and Andy Reed and, you know, the quarterback that's on the fastest track to be a Hall of Famer in Patrick Mahomes, who's in the prime of his career. So they're going to have to continue to find bargains and find true value and guys that can obviously fit the culture, understand the system can play at a high level

when called upon in a quick circumstance similar to, you know, what Remmer's had to go through because he's playing both right and left tackle depending upon who's available and what the team needs at that week. But yeah, I mean, Mike Remmers has been a really nice addition. Every time I've talked to him, I've come away pretty impressed. And one thing that I've asked him, you know, a couple weeks ago, was he was on that great Panthers team that kind of ran through the league. and obviously ran into Von Miller in the Super Bowl,

but he sees some similarities in how dominant, how consistent the Panthers were and what the Chiefs are doing now and understanding that it's his role to not really get the Chiefs off track, not to be a real issue, to always have the answers when necessary just because you're playing with Patrick Mahomes

and as long as you stay steady, Patrick Mahomes is going to float everybody else with him. With this team, and they're going to be such a fixture, that I think it's going to be hard to find things they're new about them every single year. So as you're kind of thinking about the way they've added talent, the way they think about the roster, what about their team building product? This wasn't on your list.

I'm springing this on you. This is great. What about their team building philosophy or overall approach do you think has, what new aspect of it do you think has become apparent to you? What have you learned about it in the last year that you may have not even known before the first time they won a Super Bowl? Yeah, it's such a good topic because you explained it really well. Robert, it's getting to the point now where, okay, what is new? And it's going to get

harder and harder to have some of these new fresh faces that can inject, you know, some energy and some reproduction. So much of what I've learned over the last couple of years, particularly when it comes to Brett Veach and how his philosophy sort of matches Andrew Reed. They don't think exactly the same, but they obviously have worked in tandem enough to know what the roster needs at a time for a year, two years, and obviously moving forward. As Mahomes' contract is going to obviously get larger and larger moving forward, no matter how the cap sort of figure itself out from the pandemic. Brett Reach is always going to look for guys with high potential and an ability to not just be

coachable. I mean, every team would want that right, but an ability to know that are they going to listen to the guys in the locker room? And this is why it's so important to have Tyron Matthews. to have Anthony Hitchens, who's not a big name, but is a really respected guy who knows everything that can be for a linebacker in Steve Spagnolo's system. Obviously, he has the green dot in terms of the calls and understanding how to get everybody set up. Patrick Mahomes will come to Brett Veach and say, well, how is this player looking?

What do you think about this? It's going to be a more collaborative effort moving forward. And so a guy like Legerious Need, a guy like Tershon Wharton, These were not high, recruited, highly sought prospects out of the draft. Can you please tell the people who Tershan Wharton is? Tershon Wharton is a, he is a dream come true. I like to tell people I didn't even know who Tashon was during training camp, and I was watching him practice in front of my own eyes.

So he comes from a Division II school, Missouri, S&T, had some good measurables. Is that Rala? Yeah, that's Rala. They go digging. And this is kind of to the point, right? I mean, I feel like a lot of teams didn't scout LaGrius Need enough at Louisiana Tech because they had a general idea of his, of who he was before his last year of college. But the Chiefs were pretty much on him from the moment they...

Do the Chiefs have like a weird monopoly and inefficiency with tech schools? Is that like what's going to happen now? Here's the thing. You know, Brett Veach, I don't know if I'm giving away secrets, really. But they like the Southeast. They obviously are getting better at scouting players in their own region, particularly Michigan, Ohio, Missouri, S&T, of course. But they found some guys in the South, even, you know, Rashad Fitten, who back in the couple draft classes ago, I thought, how was Rashat Fitton making this roster based on anything that I had sort of come to understand who he was as a college player?

Well, you realize he had some injuries, but he's super-cultural and technique sound. And so he makes up for that based on obviously his true talent and maybe his, you know, footwork and hip fluidity. But the dude is just really knowledgeable and is flexible. And so what the chiefs are going to have to do moving forward is finding more of those guys who are, one, thrilled to be in the NFL, two, are going to continue to work because that's what they've always had to do to make it to wherever they've been, where that's at Division II or at a lower, you know, major college program.

And a lot of this comes down to the NFL for something. some reason has not dismantled the chief's coaching staff, Robert. It makes no sense. I mean, Sam Madison was a former NFL cornerback. He's come aboard and done a great job with guys like not just Tyron Matthew, but obviously Bashad Breeland. You know, there was a time for a lot of guys to really get better. I mean, there's a case we made that in a few years from now because this is his fifth

Super Bowl that Brendan Daly may one day become a defensive quarter. Obviously, he came from the New England Patriots. Eric Beanimy, still around. There's a real continuity and a real advantage to them, knowing what they want to look for, finding out who that player is, and then really coaching them over the course of a season, to where, you know, even someone like Clyde Edwards-Aler could have a big game, even though his numbers have kind of been, you know, up and down throughout the season. There's a way for Andy Reed to coach opportunities for Cliott.

at Rzalair. There's a way for Steve Spagnolo to get reps for Harshan Wharton with no preseason, you know, no offseason program. And even though he's coming from a Division II school, he can hold up and be a legitimate rotational player on their 53-man roster when anybody in the league could have had him. So they're going to have to do that moving forward. And their draft classes in the next three years are going to be massively pivotal to making sure that they always have that young talent available to them under cost control circumstances given the massive contracts they handed out this past off season.

I think the impact and the contributions they've gotten from the last three draft classes, really, are underrated in what this team is right now because it's so easy to be blinded by what Mahomes is and kind of have that offense and the star power overshadow everything. The fact that Derek Nottie is a really useful player up front as a run stopper for them. The fact that Nick Alagretti. starts for them and is being he can hold up in NFL games as a second as a seventh round pick from 2019. Rashad Fenton played this year before they got the Jerry's need on the field.

Ron Thornhill has been really, really good as of late and has really come on for them after getting hurt as a rookie. Obviously, LaGerius Sneed has been great. So they're getting contributions from these guys. So can I tell you what I've really learned about them team building wise in this year where it seems like there's nothing new to learn about them? Sure. Let's hear it.

They're going to keep their foot on the gas offensively until for the rest of time. Oh. They are not going to sit back and say, we have Mahomes. That's enough. I heard from someone that if one of the receivers have been on the board, I think it maybe would have been Jefferson, they would have taken Jefferson,

which if you're thinking about it, that sounds freaking crazy. Yep. But that's how they're thinking about this. I think they understand we're going to win this thing every year because we are going to have the best offense podcast. possible. And we have to understand that we have to make little tweaks at these spots and look for upgrades, even if they may not seem that important to people from the outside.

I still wouldn't have drafted a running back in the first round, but I do think it really shines the light on the way that they're thinking about this and kind of where their priorities lie, even if it seems like there isn't much further they can go on offense. Yeah. And I would just say, moving forward, when the chiefs were on the club, clock wide receiver offensive lineman they could just interchange those for the next five years and just be fine and it doesn't matter if the wide receiver's small it doesn't matter if the wide receiver's tall or if he's got long striding you know to be a little bit of a bit of a change of pace

with tyreek hugh or me cole harman who's obviously trying to develop into a speed threat you know on a more consistent basis but yeah i just think you're right robert moving like the top three rounds, wire receiver, offensive linemen, you could just, whoever the best is, however you grade them. And then it really comes down to the coaching staff and what we talked about with all the guys you just mentioned, Derek Nottie, Rashad Fitton, Tershawnd, Wharton, Ligerious Need. All those guys are third round or lower. And that's kind of a, you know, a layman's terms brewpoint for what they want to do. Now, obviously they drafted Willie Gay in the second round of this. past draft, he's an athletic linebacker.

He is also hurt. He will not play in the Super Bowl. So there's chances for them to obviously change up. But I think philosophically, they want to throw the ball. They want to throw the ball. And the reason partly why they drafted Clyde Edwards-Zerleria is because he was a great dual threat player as a receiver coming out of LSU where he was really just embarrassing Alabama linebackers in coverage.

And you just don't ever see that. So they may have not used Edwards-Aliar or gotten to. as many passing plays as they would have liked with him, but, you know, part as because you got a Hall of Fame tight-in and Travis Kelsey, you got the league's fastest player, Tyree Kiel. You know, there's only one ball, but Andy Reid always wants weapons, and it just makes sense given who he has as his quarterback because that guy is playing at a higher level than he ever has before.

And again, that's a little terrifying because he's only been a three-year starter. So I was going to ask you what the most underrated or unappreciated movie their season was. We talked a lot about Logerius Sneed on the last time. we talked, though. Would you say that's the answer? Would you say finding Legerius Need in the fourth round is probably the most overlooked but big move that they made this year? Yeah. And no one really saw it coming. Like, you know, Legerius Need, I had kind of been given an idea of like, okay, here's who this player is, here's what we can think. You know, maybe he's in the rotation as a rookie. No one, you know, unless you were very bold, we're just going to say

that this guy was going to be the best rookie cornerback coming out of this draft. class. I mean, he's really fast. He's faster than what he had projected at at the combine. So the chiefs get fortunate there. Obviously, they've coached him. And he really has no weaknesses. But the thing that blew my mind away, Robert, both in the moment watching it live in the press box at Arrowhead. And then kind of going through the tape, you know, 36 hours later is, I mean, Legerious Need was, you know, hip for hip with Stefan Diggs. Like, I don't know. I just keep telling. telling myself that since that game happened. And I'm like, Stefan Diggs is great. He has been, you know, embarrassing people all year. He's been finding ways to get separation. He's been

finding ways to beat zone coverage or man covers. The Chiefs played a lot more man against Stefan Diggs and previous teams. And La Jarius Neat was in the mix and he just wasn't, he doesn't play like a rookie. And it's, it's wild because I'm just, I'm just, I'm just waiting for being like, All right, where's the rookie moment? Where's the rookie wall? Where does somebody beat you on coverage or where your eyes are? Or, you know, if they motion a receiver and it sort of screws up, you know, what your responsibilities are, it just doesn't happen.

So whatever they knew about LaGuardia Steve mentally is something that we're trying to uncover at the athletic right now, which hopefully you can get to read before Sunday's game. But he plays at a mental level that even impresses Tyron Matthew, and that's kind of saying a lot as a rookie. So obviously, this team is in a different position. a lot of teams that make the Super Bowl just because they're such a known quantity. We expected them to do this again. But if you were thinking about this season, not necessarily the turning point,

because it's kind of been one steady. It's been a steady climb that hasn't necessarily had a lot of urgency. Let's say that. We talked about this. This is their like, we're coasting to the Super Bowl moment, and that's exactly what they did. But do you think that there was a particularly telling point where this team, either offensively or defensively, learned something

important about itself? Man, I keep trying to think about obviously who they're facing on Sunday, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. I think the best half of football that that defense played in the regular season was in the first half, where they really confused Tom Brady, they forced him to play at a tempo that he really wasn't comfortable with. They were physically able to match the wide receivers, Mike Evans, of course, who's just such a really good receiver. And it took Tom Brady some time. and it was a fun game towards the end. But I get the sense that, okay, we know the Buccaneers are a really talented group

and it was going to take, you know, maybe longer than it would have under normal circumstances, not in a pandemic season where they had more time to get reps in. But I think on the defensive side, a lot of it was, okay, planted a conference opponent who may be your opponent in the Super Bowl. That's always interesting for guys. They always want to get up for that. and knowing that there's still more to be done just because for 30 minutes they played great

and then all of a sudden the game sort of shifted in Tom Brady's sort of favor. He started to figure things out. And now it's going to be not only just a physical game on Sunday, but I think it's going to be a real chess match as to who can make the adjustments or who can understand what is coming to them at a quicker pace in play call and design.

I think the Chief's offense has just been... It's been a rocket ship. There's no denying that. think the defense. Yeah, it's just been a nine all year. I think the defense is where I would focus. And I think the Bucks game is a great example. And if we're looking for the things that are new with this team, I think they reside on defense. And last year, it felt like with Spagnolo coming in, we just need to be good enough. We just need to have this level of competency that can get us there. And I think that Bucks game, and to a degree, there were a couple other games this

year that felt like this. But I think this is the year, especially down the stretch, where this defense, the light bulb went off, it's like, oh, we can bully people. Like, we can actually be the team that pushes people around. We can dictate games. We can create the tempo. And I really think that you've seen that attitude kind of filter through this defense and this confidence and kind of swagger build with them.

And I know that kind of stuff can be overrated. But I really do feel like that unit has that feel a lot more now than the, you know, they would have it this time last year. Yeah, I agree because I think the Buffalo Bills, for instance, were a more complete offense than what the Tennessee Titans were in the AFC championship game. They were so reliant on Derek Henry, and at some point, this historic pace had to kind of slow down, right? So the Chiefs were, you know, on the defensive end, you know, they were kind of, I won't say

given a smoother path, but it really wasn't as multiple of an offense as what the Buffalo Bills were going to do. Obviously, Josh Allen was playing at a very high level. He was the leading rusher. But there were more things that the Chiefs could throw at the bills just as much as the bills were a more dynamic offense than what the Tennessee Titans showed. And that goes, again, down to the secondary getting a lot better than it was a year ago. And you're not super relying on Chris Jones to just be a complete Aaron Donald, you know, carbon copy monster on third down. Like there are some third downs where Chris Jones doesn't have to be this superhero to sort of get the quarterback

office spot or to get the throw out a little bit sooner than later, they can actually get these coverage sacks now that in a way were not achievable last year under Spagnolo, even though they had Tyron Matthew in the backhand and obviously Juan Thornhill did not play in the postseason last year because of his ACL injury. So there are some changes, but I feel like they're a unit that can match one another when necessary.

Oh, we need more coverage here. We can go get it versus. okay, we're in the red zone now. Can we get some pressure on the quarterback so that, you know, we're not putting our guys on too much of an island behind us? It just felt like the defense was along for the ride last year. They were white knuckling it. And even though they played better than they did in 2018,

it still didn't feel like they were a unit that you can rely on the same way you can rely on this defense. So I want to go, there probably wasn't a low point for this team this year. I mean, it always felt like they could win it. A question that was a little bit different than anything we asked Greg and something, again, if we're looking for things that are new and different about this team, what would you say is the biggest difference between the Patrick Mahomes you watch right now and the Patrick Mahomes you watched even during his MVP season in 2017?

It's such a cool thing to see someone this talented continue to grow, continue to ascend. And I kind of knew this was coming, right? I had obviously talked to Patrick's longtime trainer, Bobby Stroop in Texas. I had been talking to Andy Reed, you know, during a lot of the virtual OTAs and trying to get an idea of like, how is this different now? He's playing at a mental level that is only rival to Aaron Rogers. And it's unfortunate what happened to the Packers in the last round. But I think Patrick Mahomes mentally just kind of knows everything. And so what's terrifying, Robert, is even when the bills have the right call in the second quarter,

of the ASE Championship game. Even when his first option is taken away and he's apparently playing on, you know, a little bit of a turf toe. And hey, he didn't get all the... A little bit of a turf toe. Just a little bit of a turftoe. And, you know, he didn't get all the reps in practice

because, you know, he had to go through the concussion protocol, which meant more time away from the iPad and more time doing these baseline tests. Like, you throw all these scenarios at him and he figured it out. on the first drive. Now, the only reason the Chiefs failed was because he threw a perfect pass and Tyreek dropped it. You know, so those variances do kind of happen.

There are some randomness to it. But about when I went back and rewatch the game, it's about the six or seven snap. And from that moment on, Patrick kind of knows what everybody's doing. And so even when Matt Milano becomes free, it's like, okay, well, I know if that's where you're going, and I know me and Travis Kelsey have the same site adjustments. Oh, all that's to do is move here and boot. It's a little throw. And then you throw into the idea of like,

oh, McCull Hartman is not feeling good about himself because he muffed a punt. Well, we'll just have this nice end-round play where Patrick doesn't have to do anything. You just gain over 50 yards. So mentally the game is easy for him because Biena and Andy Reid give him these plays that just allow the talent. of the skill positions to just flourish. And then on third down situations, I was sitting there in the third quarter just thinking, like, what is Leslie Fraser supposed to do?

Like, Robert, what is he supposed to do? It's maddening. I just don't understand how you can keep your sanity when you have to call defense plays against him. It requires, like, a mental fortitude that I just wouldn't have. They would sell out on Kelsey. And so he'd be like, okay, that's fine. Either there's a seven-yard right now with Byron,

Pringle, who again is like your fourth or fifth receiving option, or... That's generous. Or Tyreek Hill. And then, oh, if I... Oh, I've seen that on a certain formation. Okay, we'll come back to that in a couple plays. And now it's an RPO. It's a slant.

And here comes 71 yards. I mean, I... Because they're shading the coverage, understandably, to Travis Kelsey. So it's like, hey, we're shading the coverage to you. We would like you to run the ball as well on this RPO action. why are you throwing a slant to Tyree Hill on one-on-one? Because there has to be a weakness somewhere in the defense. And he's finding it quicker and quicker now to where I was laughing in the press box

during the second quarter of the Browns Divisional game. This is obviously before Patrick got hurt with the concussion. But it's like, oh, the Browns aren't fast enough. They can't cover Travis Kelsey. And that's not their fault. That's just the physics of it all right now. And Mahomes makes. makes decisions within

second and a half and they're usually the right one so good luck like yeah that's how it is good luck is like the exact way to frame it at this point and you're really just kind of grabbing out and holding on for dear life and there's nothing wrong with that

but that's where we are all right in this game who is the most important chiefs player we are not thinking about my knee jerk reaction is Harrison Bucker you have to pick someone who's not a kicker okay okay because hey I'm just saying. Some of these games come down to kick, y'all. We don't talk about kicking on this show.

Look, I call him trick-or-treat. He is, like, this is an old NBA reference, but look. Tony Allen, man, of course. Come on now. I love the Grit and Grisleys. The Tony Allen on this team is Daniel Sorensen. He is so... Oh, God. He is so trick-or-treat, man, because he'll make a play like he did against the where, you know, was it a helmet to helmet hit? Yes. Did he force a fumble that resulted in a touchback? Yes. Is he a bit of a over-the-top player, of course?

Will he be asked a couple times to cover Chris Godwin in the middle of the field? Or Rob Grankowski? I mean? Like, if you're Tom Brady, it's like, okay, who am I looking at right now? I definitely don't want to go where Tired Matthew is. That doesn't seem smart. Okay, Lagerius Sneeds one of the best rookie quarterbacks of cornerbacks. I guess I should, you know, be cautious of him, but I'll test him here or there.

You know, Bashad Breeland's their best outside corner. Okay, cool. Where's Scotty Miller? Where's Antonio Brown? You got to be careful about Scotty. Scotty will get you. And where's Daniel Sorensen? Scotty.

That's the matchup. So if Daniel Sorosan has a good game, there's no chance that the Buccaneers have of winning. but he's trick-or-treat. There's going to be a play in the first quarter where Daniel Sorson is going to make some wild player, and you're just going to be like, wow, I didn't know he had that in him. And then, you know, in the third quarter,

he's going to maybe get burnt. It's just who he is. He's a good dude, but he is so trick-or-treat. All the respect to my old boss and good friend Bill Simmons for trick-or-tree, Tony Allen. Just got to shout him out there. Can't say it out without actually giving credit. Yeah, of course.

All right. So a couple more here. who is and I think I probably know the answer to this but who do you think is the member of the coaching staff that has not gotten enough credit or has played a larger role in this than people may seem to think ooh that is a really good question

and we're not we're not talking coordinators right no you know better be on me probably doesn't count we've talked about him so much man I just I just love Greg Lewis the receivers coach for the chiefs because you know when I first started covering the team

you know, it sounds cool for Andy to be like, oh no, like McColl Hartman is going to come in and he's going to learn the X, Y, and the Z all at the same time. And you're like, is that smart? But they are so interchangeable at the receiver position. And just go on any page that has the statistics of Tyree Kill, and you can attribute that to Greg Lewis. I mean, the route running that has improved, the jumping at the apex, and really being a great contested receiver.

Look, they made Sammy Watkins into a possession receiver when, you know, when he came into the draft, is that necessarily like his top potential? Considering he was the top four pick, I certainly hope not. But they made him into like, hey, read the zone, be available for Mahomes, play your role, don't really complain as much. I mean, Sammy Watkins, when he's available,

they're kind of a deaf star. But I think the receiving position, with the jet sweeps, with the motioning, with the changing of the positions. There are a couple times where they'll be in the huddle and Pat will actually say, no, I actually want you to be the X based on what I see and I want you to be the Y. And then I want you to go over here, but then I want you to motion back. Just so I can double check if it's man or not. Okay, now I know.

And so all those guys know those positions. It sounds simple, but I do think Greg Lewis gets a ton of credit. He was also a former NFL receiver. worked under Andy Reed with the Eagles. And I feel like the burden's obviously on Mahomes. And the burden is really on the offensive line because they don't chip and they just put you out there and say, all right, five guys, figure it out. Because five out.

So like on the third level of the burden is to the receivers because you're just running so much. You're running deeper routes on a more frequency than they've, than most teams in the NFL do. and Mahomes wants to force the football down the field and it all makes sense, which means you've got to really know where you're supposed to go at all times. And I just think Greg Lewis is a really good coach, the more and more have gotten to know him

and understand the way he sort of helps these guys get better. My answer to that is Andy Heck. I just think if you think about the injuries they've had on outside of the ball. It's been crazy this year. He's the offensive line coach for people who don't know. He's been there for a long time. and people swear by him. It's a great pick.

Yeah, people swear by him. You know, Mitchell, Mitchell Schwartz, just, you know, the guy who knows the ends and out of the position so well. And I think that he'd be able to kind of, you know, guys that know that spot and have played with really good players the way that he did in Cleveland, they could smell bullshit pretty quickly. And when you have that level of respect from guys like him and from guys like Eric Fisher who have been playing for such a long time and the job they've been able to do, the fact

they've been able to keep this together despite all those injuries, I think. is really impressive. All right. Yes. Two more here. When you think about the 2020 chief season, what is the first thing you'll think about? It actually makes me think back to the parade of ending 2019,

where you know, you go through championship parades and you're like, well, we're supposed to say something. Yeah, let's go win another one. Where it felt like Mahomes and Kelsey specifically and in Andy Reed, like when does the coach just sort of go all in and say, No, no, no. Let's, let's like, they basically created this run-it-back mantra campaign, this run-it-back tour. And they were daring enough to go do it. And were respectable of one another and understood the salary cap situation too, right?

I mean, Patrick Mahomes pushes money off so that he can get Chris Jones under contract. Travis Kelsey waits for George Kittle to get his money and then goes a shave. below it so he's not the highest bait tight in, even though he could command such a, such a caliber of a contract. You know, all the guys on defense understood that we want to come back and do this, too. And the coaching staff realizes that, hey, at the time, they thought, well, Eric, the enemy is definitely gone after this year as long as we have success. So when I think about this team, I think about being at that parade and realizing that

those guys were like, that's not enough. And now you're truly, truly trying to chase legends down, right? The 90s Cowboys, the 80s Niners, the Patriots of 2003, 2004. Because when you look up those teams, they dominated people. So they just weren't satisfied with one, and they were willing to tell everybody, you know, at the parade, we're going to go really try to go get this. And I feel like some teams say it And it sounds cool in the moment They were motivated from the jump

It's so, so, so hard to win two in a row It is It is just a human nature And the way the sport is And the fact that the best team doesn't always win The fact that you need these little breaks To go your way It's the physical demands of the game

If you don't want to squeeze everything You can out of it Somebody usually wants it a little bit more Like just the setup of it There is a reason there have only been four back-to-back champions in my 33 years of life. Like, there is absolutely a reason. And the fact that they can be the fifth, it's not an accent. I completely understand everything that you're saying.

All right. Last one very quickly. The Chiefs will win the Super Bowl, their second straight Super Bowl, if what? Patrick Mahomes is Patrick Mahomes. I mean, that's exactly right. It's pretty simple. Like, I hate to make it so simple. But, guys, he has only committed.

two turnovers in seven postseason games while they're throwing the ball at a high frequency. I mean, he's just, if Mahomes is as good as I think he is, and look, he, I don't, I know this is a bad, I know this is a bad memory, Mays, but he, he went to Chicago knowing what the, what the, what the, what the theme of the game was. I'm going to dominate the bears. I'm going to count to 10. I am going to let everybody know that maybe Mitchell Trabisky went in front of me and he shouldn't have. I mean, last year,

he did something that no quarterback had ever done, which is, oh, oh, we're down 10? Okay, cool, that's fine. I got it. I'll figure it out. Oh, it's 13 and 15? Yeah, I mean, whatever. I mean, there's going to be moments where,

and one image that I can never get out of my brain, is Robert Sala knowing that there's seven minutes the way in the Super Bowl. You're just sitting there looking at the seconds tick down. And he's just like, and then the third and 15 play happens, and he knows immediately we are in holy trouble. Like dark things, man, I only see dark things because there's only so much you can do. So Tom Brady, all the respect, he's going to have to score 40,

and that's a lot to ask. It really is. And guess what? Guess who knows who the other guy is on the sideline tomorrow on Sunday? Patrick Mahomes knows. He knows what's at stake. That guy is very aware of everything that is on the table if he wins this game. All right, buddy.

Last thing I wanted to say, we met 11 years ago. We were really young kids. And I think that it's really cool 11 years later to be doing this with you. And to be in this spot. And I'm extremely proud of you. I'm extremely happy that you get to cover this team and be along for the ride. and their success makes your work more visible because you absolutely deserve it. And it's really cool to be here with you.

So thank you very much for doing this. I sincerely appreciate it. Thanks, man. I've loved you since the moment we met, man. It's a blast. We're going to get to cover the Super Bowl together. I know. It's fantastic.

It's great, man. I really never could have imagined this. I think that when you're young and you want to see how your career plays out and you want to see the people you care about, you know, have good things happen for them. It doesn't always happen in this business. and the fact that's happened for you makes me extremely happy. So I'm glad we're both here and I appreciate you doing it. Yeah, man.

Anytime. Love you, bud. All right, bud. Talk to you later. Guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much for joining us. We will be back tomorrow with Lindsay Jones and a very, very special guest. We've already recorded it, but I'm excited for you guys to listen.

I want to be a little bit of a surprise. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. It would be a big help to me. It'd be doing me a favor. Also, please subscribe to the athletic. Nate and Greg are doing amazing work this week. I've got some stuff coming later in the week that I'm really excited about. It's still $3.99 a month.

It's a great deal. Theathletic.com slash football show. You're going to want to check out the stuff we have on the site before this game. We'll be back tomorrow and we'll back the rest of the week. Appreciate it, guys listening. We'll talk to you later. This was the Athletic Football Show.