The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - How to rebuild a NFL franchise with Mike Sando & Nate Tice

Episode Date: June 2, 2022

What lessons can be learned from successful rebuilds across the NFL? Robert Mays, Nate Tice and Mike Sando examine how teams such as the Chiefs, Bills, Seahawks and Rams were able to turn things around over the past decade. They discuss coaching, culture, pass catchers, roster spending and much more.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. Today's Thursday, June 2nd. I'm Robert Mays. Really excited about today's show. A lot of teams in the NFL right now, you can throw out a few of them. Atlanta, the Giants, I think, count for this. The Bears certainly do.

They're rebuilding. The lions are in the second year of their rebuild. So I want to take a step back as the calendar moves to June and we truly get to the dead time. We've got some OTA news, but for the most part, we're in the doldrums of the NFL offseason. And I wanted to step back and talk about how you rebuild in the NFL, what we can learn from some recent success stories for other teams that have rebuilt and really just hit the ground and been successful. I want to bring on a couple of our old friends to help me do this. Join me today, very excited. My good friend, Nate Tyson, Nate, how you doing, bud?

Doing very well. I hope you had a good Memorial Day. Thank you for sending me unexpected. wrestling video from you on your vacation. Well, I went to Lucillebrae in Mexico City. A Lucha Libre match out of nowhere. I was not expecting that. So I hope you had fun at that.

I also went to a wrestling pay-per-view on Sunday, A-E-W, which is fantastic. I think yours is probably a little higher quality than mine than the Lucha Libre show I went to in Mexico City. I don't know. Tomato, tomato. But yeah, I know, I'm glad we both got our squirt circle in for this past week on our quote-unquote vacation. Well, my fiancee was like, is it supposed to be this funny? She was very confused about how self-aware it was. how silly it was.

I was like, yeah, no, they, they understand what's going on here. Yes. There's a lot of winkiness. Yes. A lot of fourth wall breaking. We thoroughly enjoyed that. It was mixed in some Lucha Libre with all of the tacos that I ate over the last nine days.

Also joining us today, someone who I love having these conversations with because he always makes me think about 10 things I wouldn't have otherwise and gives some perspective that is sorely missing from a lot of the chats we have on this show. Mike Sando, Mike, how you doing? I'm doing well. Did you know that I once saw Hulk Hogan wrestle Big John Stud? Oh. At the Memorial Auditorium in Sacramento, California as a teenager.

That's awesome. I have to go back a ways, but I do have some wrestling history. So I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I sent Nate a picture of just a very, very large man just sitting on the corner, like sitting on the little barrier. And that's how it was. It was very interactive at certain points. I, Nate, can you explain this to me?

Do you know, like, the format for Lucha Libre, like how it's supposed to go? There are rounds, which was interesting. Because they do two out of three falls, right? Maybe that was it. I had no idea what was going on with the format. That was the only thing I was confused about. I have no idea what's happening right now. Lucha, their style is really fun because it's very flippy and very athletic and more gymnastics.

I remember like Ray Mysterio and the Guerrero's and things like that. That's my knowledge of Lucha Libre for the most part. But the other like two changes is like you said, I think it's two out of three falls where it's two out three every match. And then the other one is like an attack team. match or a trios match is that they don't have to tag in. Like so if someone gets tossed out, the other guy can run in. Yeah, there was no tagging. Yeah.

So it's just action, action, action, action, action. Like, everything is fast-paced. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm sure that was a plunge into cold water for you. Oh, it was something else for me. Think about Casey. I mean, she was even on a whole different level. So I'm hoping that we get a similar vibe with this show.

Just the action, action, lots of flipping as we do a little three-man weave here about this subject, which is one that I absolutely. love chatting, but I think there's so much that we can dig into. So what I wanted to do is I want to just kind of go through maybe three or four takeaways lessons, however you want to frame them. We do a lot of lessons on the show, as Bardwell has pointed out. So we call them lessons. We call them something else.

But a few each, just about kind of some through lines you found when you went back and watched and looked at some of these teams that have rebuilt successfully. So, Mike, I want to start with you. When you were going back through some of these recent successes, what's the first thing that jumped out to you that you feel like is kind of a connecting point between all of these teams. So the teams I singled out were Buffalo, the current one, the Rams when McVeigh came in, Seattle when Pete Carroll came in, and Kansas City when Andy Reid came in.

And for the most part, it's the exact same teams that I have, which is like, it's so, so funny that those are the ones you landed out. Because I gave no parameters for what a rebuild is when I told you guys this. And usually you come on the show. Usually you come on the show and Mays has like. 75,000 word G-Doc with footnotes. It looks like it's more impressive than any term paper I ever put in. I have one for me, by the way.

I didn't come into this with no press. And he's like, yeah, can you be on the show? And I'm like, shoot, give me seven days to prep for this. Because we're going to really go into the ditty-gritty. And he's going to be pulling stuff out. And I'm going to, I got to be ready. So I'm glad that we winged it. And we actually came up with the same ones.

And the first thing I noticed was, for the most part, they hired the head coach first, made him the focus, and then found a GM who fit well with him, knows how to defer, right? And it is, the coach is kind of the face of this thing. And you need somebody to work well with that guy, kind of the opposite of the old traditional model, which is, hey, we have our GM and he's going to hire the head coach. And if that coach doesn't win, we're going to fire him and hire another head coach. So that's something I noticed right up the bat. I also, that wasn't one of mine, but that's true for a lot of these. And did you mention San Francisco as one of yours?

I didn't list them. I didn't, but we could have, but it's similar. Same kind of deal. Same deal. I found much to work with them. One that I had that it wasn't necessarily this, but I think a lot of these teams have that play calling offensive head coach who's kind of the centerpiece focal point of this. Pete is obviously not that he's like you said, he kind of oversees everything.

but McVeigh, Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan, who's, I kind of included the Niners in mind, that focal point and just kind of that driving force behind everything along with the personnel control, I think, has been important in a lot of these success stories. So, Nate, why do you think that is? Why do you think that having that head coach who's kind of at the center of all of this as someone who's had to watch pretty closely,

the dynamics between a front office and a head coach, what that interplay is like? Why do you think that has been a consistent point with all these? Consistent is a word I was going to use, is consistent vision. It's a vision of our offensive philosophy. Maybe they have, if it's an offensive coach, maybe they do have a preference of what they want to see on defense.

Maybe it's a certain style of player that they want to get. You brought out the new 49ers under Shanahan and Lynch. And right away, you see there's an emphasis on speed, especially at the running back position. You know, they had their fingerprints on certain types of guys. The Rams, when McVeigh got there, all of a sudden they're getting, they've signed Robert Woods. That was one of the first signings that he did was to bring him from Buffalo.

Okay. and then also they signed a Cooper Cup. So there was a certain style of receiver they went to, a guy that can block more because they were going to be so run heavy out of three wide receivers. Another one was the other 49ers I was going to bring up was when Harbaugh got there from Mike Sigelterry. That was another just a quick, that was almost like a, I don't know, I won't say breath of fresh air, but a breath of some type of air when Harba got, they got there. But Valke was still there beforehand, Trent Balke,

but Harbaugh kind of had his imprint on what that offense would be more at you run game. you know, maybe some play action off of that. So you just see that imprint. And it's more of like a philosophical thing. And it's easier when it's coming from the top, as opposed to say an offensive coordinator fighting with the new head coach going, I want to do this and the defense of head coach going, well,

well, I prefer you to do this. And if you have the offense of play caller offensive overseer having a say on personnel, then it's easier to like implement that vision. So that's the kind of other way. Maybe I've seen that, especially like when Andy Reid came to the chiefs. I mean, right away, you can just see, oh, that's an Andy Reid offense.

Makes sense that they went and got out of Smith of how they want to operate. So it made sense of what they go after personnel-wise as well. Mike, which of those examples to you kind of crystallizes why that's effective? Which really jumps out to you. It's like if I were kind of building this thing, this is the one I would use as a model if we think that that is a pillar of why this works. Wow. That aspect of the pillar, I think, comes through with Shannon Hanna-McVey

because it is so specific to the offenses of those two. I don't think that's unnecessarily has to be as that strong of a component. Although shoot Pete Carroll came in, I think his strengths are a little different in terms of just global leadership of the program, but they did put in a defense that was, you know, in his vision. So I think of those offenses, though, probably being the ones where it's most pronounced, but I don't think it's necessarily has to be exactly that way. Nate, what's your first one? Oh, my first one.

Well, it's funny, but that we all came to someone. up because my first point of how I was going to present that was it's all about the head coach and my next one is it's all about the quarterback and I don't think anything's ever going to change whether you're building a team or rebuilding a team you have to nail the quarterback and oh sorry no go ahead yeah but but yeah just any anytime any instance you either have to be in a position to take one early if you are truly just nuking your team or be in a position to grab one and build up the team around them and I'll bring up kind of maybe a team that's in the in flux of rebuilding or reloading and that's the Eagles and maybe it's their hey we can see what

Jayone Hertz is they're playing with House's money with that they want to move on from them next year let's have the assets available and the team around it that whatever quarterback that we want to move on to what's being a position to take advantage of that and I think no matter what's going to be all about the quarterback see and what's what I have that I have that to find a quarterback but don't rush it I think almost all these teams played good defense first almost all of them except the Rams. They, they, they, everyone wants that thing solved, right? Everybody wants to say, we did it. We got our guy. But the Rams were, they, they took over. He was the number one pick the year before. Yes. Right. He was the number one pick the year before. Exactly. So, uh, when you

think of these teams, you know, I went through and looked at it. I look at this. So Buffalo's first two years of McDermott, they were 31st and offensive EPA, seventh in defense. Seattle, we all know what they were, right? I mean, they, they, they clearly didn't even have real. So Wilson yet. I mean, they were, they were trending towards that. Kansas City, the first two years, fifth on defense, 14th on offense, right? They were never bad, which actually plays into another one of my things that I notice, which I don't know there's a pillar. But when you get that coach right, none of these teams were absolute crap early. They were competitive early. So you know if you have your, if you have a coach who can drive success, I think most of the time, they almost never suck. Look at these

guys, they come in. They're clawing. Pete Carroll's got Tavares, Jackson, whoever, they're seven and nine, right? McDermott comes in. They weren't horrible. Now, some of that is because you play good defense. You play good defense. You're going to be, at least have a chance to be competitive. The defense thing is something I also noticed that they had, not traditional isn't the way I'd put it, but not how you draw it up the way that they found success early on, this defense and kind of taking care of the ball aspect to it. That all sounds good with coach speed, but that's not how we would do it if we were creating it in a vacuum, but all of these teams found success early that way.

I had a quarterback one, and it's similar. The superstar quarterback doesn't need to come right away, but you need the right quarterback right away. That's really important with this. And by the right quarterback, I just mean somebody who's going to keep you competitive. And Mitch alluded to this earlier this week on our show. Just be a guy that when he walks into the huddle, everyone else, knows it's not a fucking joke.

Yeah. Find your out. Find your Alex Smith. That's the. Alex Smith is a really good example. And so Alex Smith got his contract after the first year with the Chiefs. The Chiefs won 11 and 5 in 2013 the year the year. The first year Andy Reid was there.

They were awful the two years before he got there. When they traded a second round pick for Alex Smith, he was making $9 million bucks that year. He was on the last year of his deal with the Niners. He had the 20th biggest cap hit among quarterbacks in the NFL that first season. He got the contract. the year after that's paid him a reasonable amount and they get the 10th highest average annual salary among quarterbacks after getting that deal. But when they traded for him, he was just a

stopgap guy. That's what he was supposed to be. And he gave them instant credibility and instant competency at that position. Another example of that that team didn't even need to pay as much for it, but I think a semi-successful rebuild we've seen over the last couple years, the Dolphins going to get Ryan Fitzpatrick, I think is a real part of them being competitive in the second year under Flores and winning 10 games. I think it was an important piece in them saying, all right, we have a real guy who understands he's been around, he's going to be a factor for the young players on our team.

That's a thoughtful, low-risk signing at that position. Jimmy Garapolo, it was not a superstar quarterback that the Niners went out and got, but they traded a second round pick for him. And if you look at the way they structured that deal, even though they did give him a big extension, it was $37 million in year one. And then after that, it averaged 20. $22 million over the next few years, which is middle of the road quarterback money.

But that middle of the road quarterback was enough. It was quarterback competency and allowed them to be successful before they eventually went and got their guy. And I think having that guy and the bills are another really good example of not doing it right away. The bills traded the pick that became Patrick Mahalps in the first year of Brandon B's tenure with John McDermott. They did not pick a quarterback right away.

They rolled with Tyra Taylor. They were fine. And then they went to get Josh Allen in their second season. So I think not trying to make a panic move at that position, but also understanding you can't just let it flail in the wind and finding the balance between those two. Nate, I feel like is a really important piece of this. Yeah, it's finding, I mean, just look at the struggles of the rookie class last year for the quarterbacks. It's having some, I'm just going to go on the flip side is having stuff around them, structure around them. You bring up the first point with defense, but also like having offense aligned and or some semblance of weapons.

around these guys because we want to say we want everyone to be Justin Herbert in their first year starting. I mean, we've been spoiled with that first year. Oh, wow, look at this guy. Just taking it by storm and just taking over around these games. But I think that we forget that just getting that young quarterback isn't just going to make it instantly better. And I know what you guys are saying about having competency at the quarterback position. But I would say on the flip side, too, is having competency around a young quarterback. Oh, yeah.

A Matt Ryan jumping in in 2008, you know, the mess that the Falcons work, but he had a good old line in front of him. He had Roddy White. You know, he had, I don't think they had Tony Gonzalez yet. They did they have Tony at 2008? No, that was later. That was later. They got Michael Turner that first year. Oh, yeah.

They also drafted Sam Baker in the first round the same year they dropped in that right. That was the other first round pick that they took. Yes. But they have competency around them. And then you see like you see Trevor Lawrence with offensive line woes, no weapons. Zach Wilson, offensive line woes, banged up weapons. The bears with Justin Fields. So it's a, I don't know if it's chicken in the egg, but it's a balance of everything.

You can't just throw these guys in the deep end, say, figure it out. These guys aren't built for that. It's so hard to play quarterback. And on the flip side, it's also you just have to have that competency around them. I'm not going to use the bengal. I'm going to talk about the bengals a couple different times in this. I'm not going to use them as a model for how to do this because I think that being really bad and giving a number one overall pick in a season where you have a transcendent quarterback

prospect is not a replicable model for people. So there's not a lot of lessons to be learned from what the bengals have done. There are a couple. I'm not trying to be dismissive. We call that the Colson luck. I was just going to say, we call that those good luck. We call that the Grickson. That's what I was going to say.

Do that if you can. We recommend that. Yes. Yeah. Listen. Hey, if you can time it where you're really bad. Yeah.

You for some reason, Joe Burrow wasn't even a person when the Bengals started getting really bad in 2019. So the dolphins were tanking everyone thought it was for Tua. Like Tua was the prize originally and it turned out no. No, no, he wasn't the prize. Yeah, no, I mean, that makes so much sense. But that's, but also, we thought that that's what the Jaguars did. Oh, they're tanking in the right year.

They got Trevor Lawrence, this next generational guy. And then you see, oh, man, it's hard. It's really hard. But like you're building your culture early with this new coach. And that's why that competency of that quarterback initially, maybe like we mentioned Seattle. Well, they kept Hasselbeck for a year. He's a pro quarterback.

You know, he's going to do, he's going to represent the coach well to the team. And that's what the falcons did with Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan. And I think that there are negative, again, I've talked about this in a couple of recent shows, but if you're looking at purely the value, I think there's value lost with hanging on to that guy at points. There's value loss with the lions have done with Jared Gough. But I can understand it as an argument. It's like, this guy went to the Super Bowl.

He's not great, but he's been a professional quarterback. We can create everybody else now. Yes, if you're an offensive player, you can evaluate everyone else, But even from a cultural perspective, if you walk into the building, it's like, all right, that guy can play. I've seen that guy play. I've seen that guy win playoff games. I've seen him have big moments. And I think that's important when you're trying to create some legitimacy in your locker room early on, even though if, even though you're probably going to overpay for that guy in the way the lions are right now with golf.

That's such an interesting component because I think, you know, in an academic paper that we presented at the Sloan conference, you would say that's, you wouldn't value that. Exactly. There's no value on paper for that, but don't we feel that? That means something. It does. It does. That's the human element of all. I mean, that that's what we argued with golf.

I mean, that's a great, great example, Robert, is that also if you're in a, especially if you're in a position of rebuilding and at least you can run a freaking football play. Like, it's not like you're running out there with, no offense to the guy, but like, there's a big difference when Jimmy G. even came in with, we knew that the 49ers were going to take some time when Shanahan and Lynch took a. over. Okay, but having Jimmy G of competency and then he goes out with an injury and you just like, oh man, this team is terrible. Do you remember what it was like to watch Jimmy G for those five games at the end of the 2017 season? It was like seeing God. Yeah. And now how we consider Jimmy G in like the

realm of quarterback like tears. Yeah. We got Mike on this show. Might as well bring it up. But but same. But that's that's what competency does because at least you get to evaluate everything else. And that's how the chiefs got to my homes is they had Alex Smith. They had. Mr. Average. And then they're, this is our ceiling with Mr. Average. What else can we do? All right, let's find the gunslinger. And then they hit on it.

You still have to hit on it. But they went through both paths, basically, the competent quarterback and then the superstar quarterback. And they found it. Golf has a 31. 31.31 million dollar cap hit this year. That looks crazy. It was 10.6 last year. So when you average those two, it's 20 million.

That is a livable price for a, for a quarterback that can walk and shoot gum at the same. time in the NFL in 2022. Who else were they, who else are they paying with that money? It's like, yes. All right, Mike,

what's your next one? I noticed these are less, while they have strong leadership from the coach, these are less fear-based cultures and more, you know what I mean? Just the vibe of the buildings. Like, like,

look, Andy Reid is a serious guy who could look holes through you and he can grab you by the throat. But I think you kind of like him too. and you trust the idea that he's got your best interest at heart, right? These weren't people that came in, my way or the highway, strong this and that, right? I mean, there's a people, there's a people component of these leaders, I think. I think McDermott is an exception to that way.

Yeah, he's only, he just looked like he's going to. For the most part, I agree with you, yes. Yeah, yeah. Apologies, son. But, yeah, I mean, Sean McDermott's serious, but I don't think he's like a. I'm mostly kidding. I just don't think he's the kind of touchy-feely guy that a lot of that these other ones are.

No, yeah, but I don't, but I think that Andy Reid can sell that in a press commerce, but it isn't either. I mean, I was around his mentor, Mike Holmgren-nicest guy, but he could light you a freaking new one when he needed to, you know? And I would think that Andy Reid could do that when he needs to, and Pete Carroll wouldn't do that, but I bet you Sean McVeigh probably could when he needs to, right? These guys can do it when they need to, but that's not what they're about. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a, I had not thought about that one just as like a culture setter type of argument. but that's totally right. I also think they're younger guys or they have a younger spirit, right? Yeah. I mean, Pete Carroll, even if he took over that job when he was, what was he, he was he 62 when he took over that job? Maybe 12 years ago.

He's 70 now. He's 70 now, is that right? Yeah, 70. 71, I think, yes. But yeah, so he was 60. He was probably 60, but he didn't feel 60. I think that's an important part of that. The guy looks like he's 55 now.

I know. It's wild. He looks better than me. If he changed those air monarchs, he would look 45. The Air Monarchs had 10 years. But otherwise, I mean, geez, this guy's unfair. Oh, I know. But that was almost like, as they say, a sub-sweet about the Patriots tree.

Like, just, I mean, but how many of those guys were going to a place and they just want to be little bills and they go in? And it's like, players look at him and go, no. Like, we're not doing that. Like, that's what the gift of Belichick or what he has been able to do is he can coach that way because he earned. that respect to coach that way. A lot of these guys, yes, they are good assistance, but becoming a head coach, as we all know, it's just a totally different hat you have to wear. So I think that's just tying what Mike said.

That's such a great point that these guys go in and go, well, this is my culture. And I'm not going to come in and act like I have all the answers, even if like most of my answers, I do think are right. I'm going to throw my next one out because I think it also was culture based. You look at some of these successes over the last five, 10 years. And these are tied together to me. Don't be afraid of the mid-tier free agents and find the mid-tier free agents that can be culture-setters for you. Look at some of these teams and the guys that have been found for five, seven million bucks a year

and weren't just one-year wonders for those teams, but became pillars not only on the field, but for how we identify those teams. Micah Hyde is one of those guys, Jordan Poyer. And they weren't afraid to go get those guys in year one. And that's interesting to me, the timeline on that, and how you, sequence it where you think, oh, where are you going? I mean, you're going to tear this thing down. You're going to go get this guy in year one.

But they weren't afraid to go get those two guys who became centerpieces of who they wanted to be defensively in the first year at that price tag. Robert Woods and Andrew Whitworth were in year one with the Rams and the guys that became complete embodiments of who that franchise wanted to be and who that offense wanted to be. The Bengals have done that a couple different times on defense recently. like Chiodobee, Wuzier, and Von Bell over the last couple of years have been important for, I think, who that defense is, just pros, pros, guys that are gotten in that little band that I love of like three to five and a half percent of the salary cap.

There are success stories in that range across teams when it comes to free agency, but I think finding the guys, the right guys in that range to kind of set the culture early on can be really important. You're not going to build this thing through the draft if you're rebuilding. You're too bad. If you're starting from zero, there's no way you're going to be able to be a contender in two or three years solely by drafting players. It's just never going to happen because if you're starting, it's such a low point. So I think finding the right guys not only to contribute for you, but also shape what that culture is supposed to be,

that's been really important in my mind for a lot of these teams recently. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry real quick, Mike, is that I think there's kind of like a term that a lot of exists. X maybe use or personnel guys will use is that I want to say good enough to get you beat is the right term we're trying to use but someone though we're always looking for an upgrade at this guy or from this guy when you're starting down zero that's fine that you know what baseline is for that position whether it be a receiver your third receiver you're starting wide tight end you're starting Mike linebacker you start just some random hodgepodge guys the one to two the three year

deal guys the cheapies like you mentioned the middle class guys but yes if you're a contender you're like, oh man, I wish we had maybe more of a like a playmaker at that position. But when you're just bawding me out, when you're just at ground zero, it's fine to have average to above average starters because it's just like, okay, now we can find good. And if we can't find good at that position, we're finding good at other positions. So that will become less of you want what was our second best starter is now our eighth best starter on defense or something of that sort. You're just shifting where they're going into tier of your defense or your offense.

So no, I think that's a great point. just getting competency. We talked about a quarterback, but I think it's just in all positions. Nate, what's your next one? Oh, man. I kind of have a twofer here. My other one was, you know,

need a supporting cast to keep the quarterback's head above water. So this is tying into what you guys said before. But my other one is those picks have to become something at some point. If you are going through, hey, we got build up assets, build up all these assets. They have to become something at some point. And what I mean by that is, it's hard to tank on purpose.

So we've seen, like I already mentioned with the dolphins and going, Tuo was originally the prize. That year, there's jokes about them being the tank commander and they're doing this for the tank. They're trading everyone. They're blowing everything up. The fish tank. Yeah, the fish tank.

They ended up with pick number five. They didn't even end up with the top pick. And there's no lottery in the NFL. It's not like they got unlucky with that. It's just really hard to get that number one pick. And I guess in a good way. I guess that's a good way to put it. But still, when they had those three,

first round picks that one year when they were like truly truly tanking including twoa they really went oh for three on those three first rounders yeah it one point i'll call two at a half hit but those other two picks that they had austin jackson and no uh and no uh hasn't played oh for three on though those are coin flips but on the flip side if you look at like what the eagles have done i i've really liked what the eagles have done with this is they had all those assets but how they're using them that we've talked about with the draft and now with the free agency with them they moved up for devante smith after they move back. Then they moved up for Jordan Davis. You know, they're, they're kind of moving, they move those assets around to find the guys they want while also keeping assets down the road

for if they do want to make a move for a quarterback. And so, we're trade a first round pick for AJ Brown. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. You're trading for AJ Brown. That's another great example. But, but, uh, but that is why those have to become something because it seems that if you just stamp pat and go, yep, we got three first rounders. It's, they're all coin flips. What if you lose three coin flips. Like what if you, you know, what if they go over three? Then you're stuck with these guys. Those are first rounders. You're playing them. So now your rebuild just gets even harder because you have to play those guys. I mean, writers are another one. They had the three first round picks. They weren't really rebuilding. They said they're reloading, but they were rebuilding.

Let's be honest. And they had the three first rounders there. Oh for three there. Josh Shaker was a great player, but playing run it back and has been hurt. So, you know, that's just an example. But just it's, you have those have to become something at some point if you want to take a step forward. That reminds me the Jets right now. where you have this team with all of these resources, and they could spend in free agency, and even if we like all of the individual moves that happened and the way they spent that free agent money

and the places that they spent it with the roster looks like now, they have three first round picks this year. Those guys don't hit. I mean, none of this shit really matters. And then a quarterback is obviously in a completely different story. And that is also, if he doesn't hit it, none of this matters even more. But those picks eventually have to turn into players. You can stockpile all the assets you want as part of a rebuild,

but hitting on those is hugely important. The Browns are another good example. You look at the Sashi Browns. I mean, they had three first round picks in 2017. Miles Garrett's really good. Jubeal Preppers ended up becoming part of the trade for OBJ. And then David Njoku wasn't a player until he got $25 million a year or whatever he got last week. So not all of those guys have contributed on the level they needed them to.

And I think that's really important. I mean, Corey Coleman was a first round pick for them in 2016. Eventually, those guys are going to have to be really good players if you stockpine all those first round picks for this to all come together. All right, Mike, what's your next one here? Could be related to having the head coach who's empowered, but it seems like they were able to make really targeted personnel moves for veterans when they wanted them.

They didn't all work out, but, you know, getting a Stefan digs. It's kind of at the right time, the right fit. You know, the Rams have been all over that well documented, but whether they're getting a Brandon Cooks or somebody else, they're always sort of in that mold. I think for Seattle, we could point to, you know, the Harvin and Jimmy Graham, whether they worked out and up, but they were there for Averill and Bennett, right? They were getting guys when they needed to get them, right?

They needed those two guys to fix their pass rush, and they went and got them and they were in the Super Bowl. I think Buffalo should have been in the Super Bowl last year, but they'd gone and gotten Stefan Diggs, right? Kansas City, you could say to some extent with, you know, at least early on with the move for Frank Clark or retiring Matthew or whatever, they've, they made some high-profile moves that, that I think cost money. or were, you know, the head coach had the ability to make them work in the scheme, that type of thing that were done at the right time. Yeah.

I was going to say, yeah, I have one that was kind of related to that, so might as well throw it in there is know what you are. And that that's kind of, I think, tied what Mike's saying right now, know what your windows is. Or like, is it huge? And we have, we have a window that we're, oh, this is like the Rams last year. I think it's always going to be the example for everybody is that like just, hey, we're full cranking it. We know we're all in.

But talking about a rebuild is maybe not making a splash move, maybe going like, hey, do we really need this guy? Or it's just understanding, yes, we do. Yes, we do need to set the culture. Yes, we do need a good starter at that position to set the tone for young guys. So yeah, I think just kind of related to that is just knowing what you are, knowing if you are, are we early step in a rebuild? Are we competing for a playoff spot or are we a true Final Four contender type? So, yeah, that's kind of related to what you're saying, Mike. is just, yeah, knowing what you are.

You mentioned this. When you can get over the top, you know, that's the thing. Nate, you mentioned this a little bit when you were talking about the receivers that the Rams went and got. I am so interested in how these rebuilding teams build their past catching groups. Because not a lot of these teams, again, the Bengals are an exception, the fifth overall pick they got your March Ace. That's great. If you can do it that way, that's awesome. But I do think the Bengals are an example of this in another way.

You don't have to have that wall. off the bus 6-3-2-20 prototype number one receiver. How many of those guys are they? Three, four. They're like quarterbacks. They just don't exist really. And I remember talking to Brandon Bean about this a couple of years ago when discussing the way they built their receiver cord.

This was pre-Stefons. It's before they made the digs trade. And he mentioned that there aren't that many true number one receivers. And you don't have to go get a prototypical number one receiver. But it's crucial to assemble your past catching group in a thoughtful way. and that can include the way they all fit together and finding uniquely skilled players that are undervalued for one reason or another. Look at some of these examples. The 2014 Chiefs, Travis Kelsey was their number one receiver.

Travis Kelsey was, I mean, that team didn't throw a touchdown back. I was going to say that was a good. They didn't throw a touchdown receiver. So they had this wonky ass offense where Travis Kelsey was their best player and he was for years. Yep. He and Jamal Charles were their best offensive players for a few years. Until Tyree came along, really? Until Tyree came along.

And even he is a uniquely skill player that isn't built in that number one prototypical receiver fashion. The 2017 Rams signed Robert Woods and draft Cooper Cup in the same year. Those guys aren't prototype number one receivers. Cooper Cup goes in the third round. He's slow. He has the skill set that is very specific, but exactly what they needed. Woods is the same way.

Todd Gurley in 2018, 64 catches for 700. 88 yards and six touchdowns. I mean, that is a different way to affect the passing game. The 2019 bills go out and get Cole Beasley and John Brown in the same offseason. Those guys, the way they fit together and what their skill sets are disparate, but they complement one another. And I think even though they needed Stefan Dix to tie that all together, what Cole Beasley and John Brown were in that stage of Josh Allen's development, I don't think can be

overstated how important that year was. for where the bills are right now. The Niners are another example of this. The Niners have never had a prototypical number one receiver when Kyle Shanahan's been there. George Kittle was a fifth round pick the first year those guys got there. They went and got Debo Sammy. Look at their passing game.

It doesn't look like a traditional passing game and the guys catching the ball aren't Julio Jones, but it works. All the pieces are put together in a thoughtful way. And I think that can be important to prop up a young quarterback or just to find some undervalued assets as a way to piece that whole thing together. And I think when you do that is really important. For the Rams to do that in the first year with Cup and Woods

and have Jared Goff be able to use those guys at his disposal, I think is really important. The bill's getting those guys in 2019 when they really need a Josh Allen to take a step. I think that's really important. So just understanding we need this group pretty early, but we don't have to spend a ton to. go get that guy, whether it's a first round pick or the biggest contract in free agency, we can be thoughtful about the amount we spend and how we assemble these pieces together. Yeah, I think if you don't have a number one guy, you need three weapons in some way, shape,

or four. Yeah. That's how I've kind of grown to look at it as tight ends have become more receivory and split out more. Kelsey is the perfect example of that. I was going to say find your triplets and tie it into the rebuilding. but Troyickman's a quarterback so that doesn't really flow with this. So dang it. But I was going to bring up,

and they weren't ever rebuilding, even if they had a, I mean, it's the Saints, but they've never really truly rebuilt, even if they had struggling records into 2010s. But in 2019, Michael Thomas,

Alvin Kamara and Jared Cook were their top three target getters. Yeah. Three weapons of some way, shape, or form for the, like, for the quarterback to attack with. And I know that's not a rebuilding team.

That's not really part of the exercise, but that is just, I think that's how you have to look at building a receiving court, even if you don't have that number one de facto guy. It's like NBA stars. It's nice to have your big three that each of them can get 20 points at any time rather than maybe having one guy that can score 35 a night. You know, just maybe that's not the best analogy,

but kind of sort of the same. I totally understand that. I just think that being able to assemble those pieces and again, you look at it like, all right, that makes sense. The puzzle pieces all fit together. Even the Seahawks early on, they weren't like a throw the ball around the yard, sort of team.

But Golden Tate is a weird player. Finding some of those weird players and understanding how to utilize them together, I think is a staple and a hallmark of the way that these teams have rebuilt pretty quickly. Doug Baldwin was not somebody that. Yeah, Doug Baldwin's a very good example. Develop and it was a great player, you know. Yep. Yeah, that Doug Baldwin and Golden Tate are perfect.

Like those two guys, like, that's not how you would draw it up, but man, it's cool when it all fits together like that. Yeah. Even Tyler Lockett later was, you know, ended up being somebody. People considered him a returner only. I remember coming out of Kansas State. And then, yeah, I mean, he's much, much more than that. All right, Mike, what's your next one?

I feel like I'm down in the weeds now that the things I would come up with now that could be any team. You know, I think as I looked at the teams that I had singled out Buffalo, the Rams, Seattle, Kansas City. I think for the most part, they dodged early on. They kept continuity with the offensive staff with whatever trying to do a quarterback. And I don't know that you can set out to do that because if they get a head coaching job, that's just the way that it is. But I think it was pretty remarkable. The dayball stayed. Obviously, with McVeigh and Reed, you solved for that because they're the head coaches. But I think even early on with Darryl Beville, you know, in Seattle was part of putting together an offense that worked well from the skill set of their quarterback.

And they didn't have a bunch of change. They did eventually, but not a bunch of change. So that may just be a product of whatever they were able to have success-wise, but I did notice that about these teams. I think that's really important, just period. But it has been a consistent element of these rebuilding teams too. Yeah, that's tying in with culture and everything. And yeah, no, that's a great, great point. I love these human element ones, Mike. This is, this is, I mean,

he's the ones I would not have come up with. It matters so much. It matters so much. It really does. It matters so much about just, like, there's so many times when you might want to just take that 76 overall guy on your team because the effect that, the boost that he can give other other players and just i i think a good one made for the bills and i

maybe just i had my experience with him with the raiders john feliciano going with the bills not the greatest player in the world but just having effect on the offensive line culture they're trying to have there with bobby johnson and everything but also helping out with protection calls like just those day-to-day things like that matters uh one of the best with the bills signed another raider favorite mine andre holmes again he was like a 75 overall guy at at best but a number four receiver who's going to do all the dirty work and can back everybody up. So whoever they add, he's going to teach him, hey, this is how you have to do it. If you're, if you're the Z here, you have to do this.

That stuff matters so much. And I know your point was with the coaches, but players, coaches, just keeping those guys year and year route. You're not going into a new spring ball, new OTAs and going like, you're the Patriots right now going, oh, my God, who's our offense play caller right now? Like that stuff matters. But you can just go in February. The season's over. I'm calling my coach. We're in year three.

hey, let's change what we call that verbiage. Let's change what, hey, we call it this. I'm acting like I'm the quarterback here, like starting quarterback, which so this. I have to act here because I've never had to do this. So it's going and calling going, man, I saw them do this in the playoffs. Let's do that as opposed to going. It's February 15th. Who's our offensive call or our offensive play car this year?

Oh, wow. Look, I have to look on Twitter to see who, you know, my team is interviewing. So it just matters having that continuity year after year after year. So you mentioned John Felici. Nate, one that I love with the bills. The bills did it to me in the best way, but a lot of other teams have also done it. You have to embrace churn on the interior of the offensive line. Just take as many little bets as you can as you're figuring out that group.

The bills, over the first couple years of that regime, John Feliciano comes in. They quit in Spain on a one-year deal. Spencer Long didn't work out, but he was somebody that they signed. Mitch Morse got a big contract, but they just, they're cycling through guys at the interior spots. It's like, let's just try to figure this out every year, even if it means spending a little bit of resources. The Niners traded a fifth round pick for Lake and Tomlinson. Just trying to find, like, creative, little subtle ways to improve that area your team. The Rams do it every single year, whether it's mid-round picks, you know, third, fourth-round picks,

consistently they spend on guys like that, Brian Allen, David Edwards. They signed John Sullivan that first year who that's one of those guys that just culture setter smart guy veteran they paid him like a million bucks in 2017 that first season but think about all the other guys austin blithoff waivers from the colts they traded a fifth round pick for austin corbett they're just constantly churning that interior group trying to find the right combination whether it's personalities or just answers if a guy hits free agency who's going to replace him just constantly trying to figure out and sort through options along the offensive line so you know you have five capable starters that can work together.

I think that's a hugely important part of this, just through trial and error. And the bills did such a good job of that. The point where it probably drove their offensive line coach insane. But I do think that it was an effective way to do it. Yep. You're trying to get on base with all these other positions so you can hit a home run at quarterback. Yes. And he drives them all home.

That's what it is. get on base with their offensive line, your receivers. Okay. Okay. They're fine. Okay. We hit a single. They took a walk.

We're fine. Okay. Josh Allen, develop. Knock them home, buddy. Everybody's scoring. Everybody's scoring. I think that's the best way to look at it is just, yeah, hit singles and doubles with other spots and hope you hit a home run at quarterback.

Yep. The one exception here, and I don't know if this is causal or a coincidence. Yeah. But if you look at pretty much every single one of these, they got their starting caliber left tackle very quickly. Dionne Dawkins was drafted in the second round in 2017 in Buffalo because they traded away Cordy Glenn to make the move up for Josh Allen in the draft. Remember this?

This is a good call. This is a good call. I like this. So Dionne Dawkins was there the first year. Andrew Whitworth signed with the Rams in 2017. Eric Fisher was the first overall pick. He was the right tackle on that 2013 Chiefs team that was really good. They franchise Brandon Albert that year to keep him.

and then Fisher moved over in the second year and eventually became a pretty solid starter. That's a plan. That's a good plan. That's what smart teams do. That is the thing to me. Never be scrambling at that spot. Seattle took Russell Okung with one of their first. First year. 2010, the first year he has a first round pick. They took Russell a little Kong. Jonah Williams is not a great player at left tackle for the Bengals. He is solid as can be. And you just don't have to worry about it. You brought up Sam Baker.

Sam Baker was another guy. in Atlanta. Louis and Robert May is rallying late in the discussion. It's a good one. This is universally accepted by everybody, but not thought of by anybody except him. I love this. I just, I was looking at it and I was like,

man, as they churned through these interior guys, for the most part, all of these teams have had to set it and forget it left tackle. It doesn't need to be a superstar. It doesn't need to be an all pro player. But as long as you know your guy isn't a turn style over there, again,

I don't know if it's causal, but it has been a consistent aspect. of a lot of these teams. The Niners, Joe Staley was over there, and then they traded for Trent Williams. They have not had to worry about who their left tackle was through this entire process with Kyle Shanahan. So that's one that just kept jumping out to me. I was like, man, these left tackles are all pretty good and like pretty big investments.

I got one that they all did that they shouldn't do. Don't take a running back early and pay them, right? Yeah, we got Kansas City doing it. We got the Rams of that. Yes. You don't need the cherry on top. You don't need the cherry on top. top. Although, you know, I'll just know who you are is

Marchion Lynch, one of the great acquisitions, but it only costs the fifth round pick. But I was laughing at that, just thinking of this, but the left tackle's good. That's one that they saw, found a way to do it. I wanted the Cowboys to work out for the early 90s, but it was Mark, Mark Toonai. Tune. Oh, yeah. Tune. Yeah, he was that forever. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cald. We can do a whole show on that offensive line. Oh, my God. I know. That was one, that was one benefit of my uh my uh during where we didn't know football was going to start in 2020 was i just

watched old 80s and 90s i love it it was so much fun watching those old games just like we should do that as a show one time where we each watched all right come back and we'll report on 80s football you know yeah what did you see in 1990 i would listen that's what was north turn running in 19 is is yeah yeah and me and Nate just watching early 2000s players and getting to talk about them just do you're talking about old players north i love it in 1994 that was that's the fun stuff Yeah. Nate, do you have any others? No, God, that left tackle on is awesome.

I mean, that's one of the things that I laugh about, they weren't really rebuilding, reloading, I guess, but the Chargers, they did the two hardest things. They hit on a rookie quarterback and they hit on a rookie left tackle. Like, that's like,

that's exactly how you want to build your team. Like, everything else is just a bonus. Yeah, so, no, that's a great, great point. I like that one. Mike, do you have any others? No, you know, well, all right. I did think about, this goes in with an,

adding acquisition, but I think sort of knowing when to add, doesn't seem like they add pass rush to try to go over the top. Doesn't that seem like at Buffalo is trying to get Von Miller, the Rams had Von Miller, Seattle, we mentioned April and Bennett, Kansas City tried to get Clark, Frank Clark. There's been a, there's a certain point to do that. That sort of fits in with a thing that Nate was talking about, know who you are, when to do it. But is there any theme with how they got their pass rush, right? Is there a lot of acquiring it as opposed to, acquiring a veteran as opposed to, if you just think of teams historically, shoot, Charles Haley was going back and forth. Are you sort of hiring the mercenary guy?

Is that every team? Is that, that's a good one? It's just kind of something that was there with some of these teams. The Niners traded for D. Ford. He didn't end up becoming a really important piece of that line compared to the other ones. Well, getting Nick Bosa. Yeah, that's exactly right. They really helped.

They got Nick Bosa and they had Armstead and Buckner. Because the Rams invested all those first rounders on D-Line, remember? And they'd a string of them. Yeah. What got me thinking about that, Robert, was, so you mentioned left tackle. We'd talked about quarterback before. And so just to sort of circle this all together in the end, when we think of what are the most important positions, right?

The ones that if you could pick five positions, we would all have the same ones probably of things that we think are important. And as you think about it, how do you get those? You have to sort of get them. But maybe you get them in different ways. Yeah. But there could be themes in how you end up getting them and when you need to win your development. I mean, the left tackle one, because we've talked about this, Robert, it's usually you have to spend a top lottery pick on it, like to find your guy, to find your left tackle.

But this also ties into your outlier thing with, like what Bean mentioned stuff, like a guy like Toronto Armstead. Like he was an outlier, small school guy. It's hard to find that spot. And usually to get a quarterback, you have to take one early or have enough assets to get go get one. you know, like the Rams did last year, what the Broncos are hoping to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's going to be a theme, I think, for every offseason for the next foreseeable future. But same with left tackle.

I think it's either you have to invest early on one, hope that a guy is disgruntled with his franchise like Trump Williams was and holds out for a year and they get one, or you have to find some outlier, which is very, very hard to do. So yeah, it's kind of funny that you have to nail those picks, those spots, really, if you want to take those lead forwards on offense and as a team. I have a couple that are spending related. I think that a consistent theme recently has been at some point, you're probably going to have to take it on the chin.

If you're truly rebuilding, there's going to be that year where you have to take it on the chin. There's going to be $30, $40, $50 million in dead money. And you have to understand that it's better just to endure that year and then get on the other side of it than trying to kick the can down the road consistently. The bills, they bit the bullet in 2018. They had that $55, I think $60 million in dead money. And then you get on the other side of it. They were near the bottom of the league and cash spending over those first couple of years as they figured out that.

And I think a lot of teams right now that are rebuilding are following that model. The Bears are near the top of the league in dead money right now. The Falcons are near the top of the league in dead money right now. The Giants are probably going to do it over two years. I think next year is going to be there. Shit, this is painful. But we have to do it here. And enduring that, I think, is an important step of this.

Just understanding, you have to do it. You have to rip the bandied off at some point, and I know it's going to suck, but it can help us. And I do think a lot of teams are going to follow the Bill's model of how they did this because it worked out so well. And I think all of those teams are doing that right now. So I think that's important. And then the other thing that I really noticed, it works on a couple different levels. I was listening to Brandon Bean on Thomas Dimitrov's podcast this week. And he was saying that during his initial conversation with the Pagoolas, he said, I wanted to ask them about resources and just how we would be able to spend resources.

And the thing he mentioned was the new practice facility in Buffalo. I don't know, Mike, if you've been up there. It's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, their facilities are incredible. And players have talked about that openly. And I think leveling the playing field with what your facilities are like, how seriously you take that kind of stuff. Because if you're, we talk about signing these mid-tier free agents.

you got to be a place people want to go. Yeah. If you're really rebuilding, if you're tearing it down and you don't have other things to sell people, I think that that's, it's going to be an issue. It's going to be an issue to coax guys to your spot.

So having those sorts of facilities and having a team that's willing to spend some money in that way is important and also willing to spend on players. The Rams, that second year in 2018, they spent 126% of the cap in cash, which was the second highest mark in the league. You know, number one was Chicago Bears spent 130%.

That was the Kaleel Mac year. That was Alan Robinson contract. I mean, they signed all those deals that year. But the Rams spent a ton of money that year. That was the year where they went out and got to keep to leave and they made all those trades. They were willing to sign all those veterans. They threw some money around that year.

Over the last five seasons, okay, these numbers are from over the cap, which I would really appreciate them sending me these. Over the last five years, you know, what team has spent the most cash? in the NFL, even though they started this five-year span rebuilding. Yeah, we're. San Francisco 49ers.

Okay. The Niners have spent, and this just isn't a one-year blip. The second year and the third year with Shanahan, they spent 115% of the cap in cash, and then they went up to 120 the last two years. It's for a lot of different reasons. This is just one throwaway point. They spent almost $50 million in cash on quarterbacks last year. Mike, how many owners would let a team do that?

You keep Jimmy on the roster and you give Lance his bonus and you're spending 50 in cash on a quarterback. The Colts owner did it. Now he's filming videos outside the team playing. So yeah, you better be careful. Now, I don't think that many people would allow you to do that. And I think the Niners have gotten flexibility as a result of that. The way they did it with Jimmy that year, where they paid him $41 million in cash in the first year of that deal, the only player to make more cash that season in the NFL was Aaron Rogers.

And that gave them some flexibility down the road. Having an owner that's willing to spend out of problems, I think is an underrated aspect of this. One of the reasons I bring this up is because I don't think about it enough. I don't think about the practicalities of this enough when we're talking about how teams actually operate and the advantages and disadvantages it creates for them. And so I tried to find an ownership theme through it. And I think the theme is this. You just can't have shitty ownership. It can't be terrible.

That's important. It can't be terrible. Like there's different varying degrees of benign, you know, or great. They're all different. But I don't know how many good rebuilds you see where you're really overcoming really bad ownership. Yeah. I mean, it's because you have to week and week out explain patience to people that a lot of them are bottom line types. So it's.

But so when you get the ones that do, it's like if you're willing to have a presentation going, hey, this is what we're doing. This is what our plan is. This is our philosophy is. And this goes into maybe having a head coach with a. good plan for everything or GM and or GM. Trust me, I, I've, I've been through. Now I, my dad has been through a, a team with an owner that didn't really spend in Red McCombs. So I kind of know the, the bottom of this. But so I've, and I've looked at envy sometimes when you see these owners spending, you know, spending at the cahoots to build up their team.

I, I think just to tie in both points is when I got with the Raiders, uh, in 2016, the year before when Del Rio got there, they redid their practice facility. They got themselves a, they redid their weight room. Their weight room used to be like the side of the medical tent or the medical facility, which was like the size of my office right now. That was the NFL level weight room. And then they did beautiful one and then they move out of it like two years later, which is kind of funny.

But that got him some free agents. That got them the Rodney Hudson's of the world, the Coletio Semelis, some other guys, Bruce Irvin, guys like that, they're looking at that stuff. I mean, always going to come down to money. But then the next question is, usually. All right, who's the quarterback? All right. If it's a good quarterback and we're assigned between two teams, then it's going to go, all right, what does the team franchise facilities look like? How's the owner? I mean, that's what it's a tie. And the culture, right? The culture.

All these things are tied together. And that's what guys look at. So it does, does matter. That helps your rebuild. If you have a good culture, players talk, it's going to only, it's just going to build on itself. It's just going to go up exponentially if you do the right things. And the, you know, the dolphins are trying this. And I think the dolphins did, They threaded a needle in what they did because I think Brian Flores got that team to play hard as shit. We talked about Ryan Fitzpatrick as the impact that he had on this. But I think tearing it all the way down, all the way down, is really, really hard to do. It is?

It's really, really hard to do. And a lot of these teams never did that. They never tore it all the way down. It was really bad. And then they kept trying to, they really quickly tried to build it back up. Or in the case of the bills, they're doing a little bit of both. the idea that in year one we're going to bring in a Micah Hyde and a Jordan Poir and a couple of these guys. And then we're going to take it on the chin with that one year of dead money.

But it's never all or nothing. And I think it's so tempting as we're looking at these teams near the bottom or that are middling and really wanting them to do something drastic to correct course. Or like you mentioned it, just have a plan. Just show me what your plan is. I want to feel the plan. That can be difficult because it's not. Not every move is going to fall into one bucket.

Not every move is going to be a rebuilding move. There's going to be a little bit of both all of the time and trying to decipher, well, this is kind of a win now move. Why would you do this if you're rebuilding? It's kind of what the Vikings are going through. I don't agree with everything that they've done, and I think that they've made their degree of difficulty a little bit higher with some of the moves they've made

and some of the restructures that they've done. But I feel like we don't have that many success stories of teams that are just like, we're just going to be terrible. We're going to be terrible. We're going to accumulate all of these assets and that's how we're going to do it. That just doesn't work that often. So I just feel like we can give a little bit more grace to teams that are navigating this space because not every move is going to fall into the bucket we want it to.

That's this rebuilding and big flashing light sort of move. When McVeigh took over the Rams, they signed Whitworth and all those guys. I remember people going off, why? Like, why would you do that? You're nowhere near close to competing, but he understood his situation. And you're always trying to win. These guys are always trying to win. That's part of your DNA.

It's part of your culture. You don't have it in you to say we're not trying, you know? Yeah. And you can't say to players, hey, your tape is your resume. And then at the same time go, but don't try too hard as the guy, as the guy might get cut and never get another chance again to sign with a team. So it's really hard to go, you know, hey, hey, we'll play this, you know, fifth string guy because we're at wink, wink, we're really competing. But that guy's going to compete his ass off. You know, that's what they're going to do.

And look at the four teams I had named Buffalo, Rams, Seattle, Kansas City. They didn't get their quarterback number one overall. Nope. Nope. They didn't even get them in the first round for Seattle. They got them outside the top 10. Outlier. Around the top 10 for Mahomes.

Stafford, they just got him when he was available, which is hard to repeat, but they did it. And Buffalo got him, but he was where he was. And then the quarterbacks they got ultimately, you could put Wilson in a different category. They had traits. Yeah. The one I'm talking about the, you know what I mean? Now, Russell did too, but he just was shorter. But that's an interesting component of it too.

We could table this conversation. There might be something on the schedule a little bit later this summer about when we find quarterbacks and when we should be trying to find them as part of this conversation. So, spoiler alert. But that may be coming down the road because I think that's a very important part of this entire thing. And the last thing I wanted to mention, there weren't that many options. If you look back over the last 10 years, it's not like there were 15. teams that we could choose from because a lot of the teams that are good in the NFL right now

were never bad yeah they were never bad they had moments and their ebbs and flows and little dips you know the saints had that seven and nine stretch but these are teams a lot of them that have stayed good the ravens the packers the saints the patriots these are teams that have stayed good and i think there's a lesson to be learned in that and that you don't have to tear it down to get back up you can kind of navigate those foul periods in ways that makes sense for you in the moment and then get back to the top. And that's something that I, you know, we know implicitly, but looking at how few examples there are of teams that got really bad and then got really good, I think is an important part of this too. Yeah. I mean, we want to trust the process, but sometimes the process is, I like the process of just you're continuing to win as opposed to bawling out.

I mean, process of not getting fired. Yeah, I'm not getting fired. Long Jive lead is a good thing. I know. I mean, that's a great, it's a good point because, I mean, the Browns openly, I mean, more or less, we're getting rumors of the owner paying for losses. We're trying to lose and lose and lose. And they've only had one playoff appearance. And they're on their third head coach.

I mean, basically since they stated that they're doing that, maybe in fourth, if you want to. Yeah. And they're on different GMs now. Like, it's just, it's really the only good year they had the one playoff appearance where they're expected win loss, was eight and eight. You know, it's, it's hard to get bad and it's hard to get back to good. So it's better just to find ways to compete or be competent. Yeah, then the Browns are probably a team we could have talked about more with this,

but there was no, there was no, like, clear path to rebuild it. You know, there were all these different regimes and different coaches, and it eventually happened, you know, but it's, I don't, it was hard to throw them in with the other teams just because it's a little bit weird or how they got to this point. Imagine calling their thing a five-year point. plan. I don't even know what happened in the last five years there. I don't, shoot, I'd have to look it up. Freddie Kitchens came in with that plan, you know? Yes. It's like, oh, man, their plan was to try to lose the police that were chasing

them. And they did. I can, I don't know where they are. All right. That's all we got. Guys, thank you very, very much for doing this. And thank you guys for listening. That was a blast. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I'd really appreciate that. Please subscribe to the athletic. Theathletic.com. football show where you can read both of these wonderful gentlemen. If you do not have a subscription, I highly encourage you to go do that. We'll be back tomorrow with me, Nate, and Lindsay. We're going to talk about some GMs.

We did non-quarterback rankings. We did quarterback rankings and drafts. We're going to, and we did coaches last year. We're going to do GMs this week. We're going to talk about which GMs we would want. It's kind of, I don't know, we were starting a team. We're rebuilding a team. That ties into this.

Making a little bit more specific. Yeah, they're connected in some way. Some may say a little bit too much overlap, but I'm not one of those people. Spiritual successor. Yeah, that works for me. We will be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you soon.

This was The Athletic Football Show.