The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - How to remodel an NFL team

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

We hear about rebuilding a team all the time, but not every franchise is in a position to totally tear it down. So how do you remodel a team in the moment, given the circumstances surrounding it? Robert Mays and Nate Tice dig into that question through the lens of the 2023 Titans and Vikings on this episode of The Athletic Football Show.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Nate on Twitter: @Nate_TiceSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeToday's show is brought to you by...Atlassian: For projects impossible alone, visit www.atlassian.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome. The athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Join me today. It's my good friend Nate Ticane. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing well.

When we record these early in the morning, I usually have a nice espresso. And so usually we talk and kind of go, okay, we're going to, you know, let's do this. Let's do this. And then the whole time I'm like holding my espresso. And then you go, okay, here we go. Three, two, one. And in my brain, I'm so used to the live shows now that the intro plays. And then that's like, okay, that's my espresso.

drinking time. And then when we do this, not live, it's like, oh, shit. Oh, God, no, I got wait. I got wait a couple of minutes before that caffeine kicks in. But I'm doing very well. I'm, uh, this is a very excited for this thought experiment. I'm curious where this conversation goes, because I do think this is really interesting. We're in a weird part of the NFL offseason, right before the combine, right after the Super Bowl. Free agency is kind of kicking up, but we have a lot of time to talk about free agency. There haven't been any really big newsmaking things that have happened. We're recording this at a weird time.

There's just a bunch of stuff going on right now. You just jinks it. No news things happened. I'm sure I'm sure something a bombshell is going to drop by the time we're done with this. It's about 10 a.m. Central Time on Thursday. This should be up later today. The one thing that did happen in the NFL news cycle yesterday is that the Titans

cut a lot of guys. They certainly did. So the Titans cut Taylor of the Wan, Robert Woods, Zach Cunningham, Randy Bullock. Overall, frees up. north of $30, $35 million in cap space. They were about $20 million over the cap, so it's an entirely, we'll get into that, but frees up a ton of space. It is a slew of moves, the first slew of moves by Rand Carthin, who is their new general

manager. So what I wanted to do today is I wanted to take those Titans moves and where the Titans are and kind of use them as like a natural experiment of sorts to talk about how you remodel an NFL team. The Titans are in the AFC. The Titans have played the Chiefs plenty over the last five years when they've been kind of a quasi-contender in the AFC. You're looking at the Chiefs, the Burrow-led Bengals, the Josh Allen led Bills, the Justin Herbert led Chargers, potentially, we'll see what happens with Lamar. You're a team without one of those quarterbacks, but you have to compete with those teams now year in and year out. How do you do that? Now that you've

cleared the decks a little bit. Now that you have some flexibility, now that you're not starting from zero, we'll talk about some of the pieces they already have on the roster, but you are definitely in the midst of a reset. What should that reset look like and why when you're trying to compete with those sorts of teams in the AFC? So we're going to try to take some larger ideas maybe and graft them on to a Titans team that has become somewhat of a blank canvas. Yeah. Hello, Claries. That's where we're trying to make it fit. We're trying to make it fit on the face.

It's, it's, that's the thing. It was we've, I think we've established, I think is now a common fact that we know the biggest advantage in the NFL is having a rookie contract quarterback. A good one really helps as well.

But having that and having the flexibility or having a guy like Mahomes and good being in the upper class of the true, true elite quarterback. What about everybody else? And this is, I think this is so fascinating in every sport. even in baseball, I think this is kind of happening as well. What is this middle class where you're not spending like the Yankees or the Mets and you're not playing money ball?

But there's other teams like the Padres that are spending out to Wahoo right now. But that's also a thought of experiment too. Like what happens if a small market team pays like a big market team. But I think in the football world, this is what I just think is what, how each team goes about this is so interesting to me and how they got it like the strengths of the team, how they build around. This Titans team's built around Derek Henry and an awesome play action attack with Ryan Tannahoe who was willing to stand in there and take a hit. That was their identity though. And they made it work now. And I think that that's an important part of this conversation is how much you try to hang on to those remnants of who you were and how much do you try to turn the page.

Some of this stuff is going to be Titans specific. Some of the players on their roster, some of their free agents, all of that. But I think that the goal here is to try to have that conversation root in those specifics, but have it. speak to something larger and more general that applies to a lot of other NFL teams. So let's just set the financial table first off. Okay, so by moving on from Zach Cunningham, Taylor-Lawain, and Robert Woods, they free up about $35-ish million in cap space. They started about $22 million over the cap heading into this off-season for reasons that we'll get into.

So now they have about $12 million or so in flexibility. Let's say for hypothetical sake here, they move on from Bud Dupree as a post-June first cut. He's set to make $20 million against the cap this year. I have to assume that you can find $20 million worth of but to produce production in the free agent market. I didn't realize how long that contract kept going for through 2025. One of the very few deals where it happened in the moment. I was like, that's not good.

That is not going to be a good outcome for them. And we were correct about this. He's played 11 games each of the past two seasons. He's set to make 20 million. They can save another 15 million. if they make him a post-June first cut. So now you're at about $30 million in cap space, which is a lot. That is a lot of money, especially when your quarterback is set to make $36 million against the cap.

I don't want to get into that quite yet, because that is the biggest question about what the Titans are going to do. So a couple more just little housekeeping things. A couple UFAs that they have. David Long is a free agent. Nate Davis, one of their starting guards, is a free agent. Two of their other starting offensive linemen from last year are also free agents. that's less important because they were only starting because of circumstances. And then Tyre Tar is a restricted free agent.

So those are some of the guys that were contributors for them last year that are set to hit free agency. And now it becomes a question of, do we want to resign any of these guys? Do we look into the open market to replace them? Whatever. So those are kind of the little bits of housekeeping here. The big question, obviously, becomes what you do with Ryan Tannahill and his $36 million cap hit. and what that says about where you are, where you want to go, and what you think the best path forward is.

That's because if you look at the rest of the quarterbacks on the roster, they did draft Malik Willis as well, but they pulled the plug on that experiment. They plugged it back in and pulled it several times. They blew in the cartridge and then they tried to have it work again and it didn't work. So yeah. Might be time just toss that one.

Yeah, so we'll see. We'll see that path. But the Tannhill stuff is super interesting because to me this team is primed for a the tank word it really is or at least a one year kind of all right take a deep breath and really go for 2024 you brought up the offensive alignment and who they have under contract they only have three offensive alignment under contract in 2024 like they they have one running back under contract they have one quarterback under contract in 2024 i'm talking about this team has choose your adventure plus this is a like

they can really reshuffle this, but the Tannenhill thing is very interesting because if you want this next year's quarterback class, I know everyone says this, I just want to start with this. Next year's quarterback class, there is going to be some tanking. I do think it happened. Competitive tanking with Caleb Williams and Drake May. I really do think those are two prized prospects. Right now, a lot of things can change. But does Tana Hill make you too competitive because he is a fine quarterback? And if you just have some semblance, but he can get you to six, seven, eight wins.

So that is where, okay, do you really just point the nose south or do you try and move on from this and really just nuke it and really clean slate it? And try and get something back, either trading him because they save money that way too or cutting him in the post-June 1st stuff. It's an interesting thing. It's an interesting thought experiment because I'm just laying it all out like what the paths you can go down with this. Beyond even the six-seven or eight wins you get by him keeping you competitive, if you're going to win six games, is it worth paying your quarterback $36 million? Right. Might as well win four and pay him find somebody for 10. Probably not. Because guess what? We're in this wonderful world where cap space rolls over. So if you want to be in a good spot next year, you don't have to spend it all this year. I think it wasn't the estimate for the 2024 cap, $250 something million. I think is that it's going to be going up. So it's going up. Let's say in this little hypothetical that we're building, they move on from Ryan Tannahill. Okay. Yeah. We've talked about Tant Hill. our quarterback carousel show earlier this week. I think that there would be teams who'd want to have Ryan Tannahill on their roster.

He's an interesting spot. He's a $27 million-based salary. So when their teams want to take that on is a whole different question. If they make him a post-June 1 cut, they would save $27 million against the cap. He'd be $9.6 million in dead money. Some of their dead money hits, by the way, Julio is $8.4 million. The Julio thing, while I understand it in the moment, is pretty tough. The wide receiver swings they took outside of AJ Brown, it did not work out super well over the last couple years.

Oh, I'm in too. Actually, all offensive swings basically. It did not go well on offense. So let's say they move on from Tannahill. They free up another, you know, $18 million in space, which that would be a post-June first cutter trade. Yeah. Or pre-June first cutter trade. Then you're at $45 million in cap space.

Okay. So then I think the question becomes, if you move on from Ryan Tantanhill, what does, the quarterback solution look like in 2023? And this, again, I think, brings us to a larger question. If you are in transition, you are not competitive. You don't think that you're a competitive team. You have not a ton of urgency to be competitive. You have a head coach who clearly has a lot of built up equity within the building. That's very important. So great point. Yes. A ton of equity in the building. You have a GM who is in his first year. I don't think there's going to be a ton of pressure of you have to win right now.

We just saw them cut a bunch of veterans to save some money. This is... Confidently cut up. They had a plan right there. That was in succession. This isn't the Jets. And not all teams are created equal. I can understand the Jets saying, we need to go get a Derek Carr because we need to save

some jobs. Like we need to make the playoffs this year. The Titans are not in that position. So if you're not in that position, you have $45 million in cap space. What do you do a quarterback with the 11th overall pick? I, I'm not taking one in this class. I think that we have already... even if they like a guy because I just don't think it's a great.

We have learned this now. We have so much proof for the last few years. The circumstances matter so much. And in a quarterback class that, yes, I actually like all four guys. I really do. But all of them are flawed. And you don't want that flaw to be exposed. And I think this is a great situation for them, because I'll say that word again,

the kind of quasi-tank that they might go on this year. It's a great time to sign one of those stopgap vets. See if you have anything with Malik Wills. And I think it's a win-win. If he flashes, if you play that second half of the year, it's a, we're trying to say competitive and see what he's got, wink, wink. You know, like, you kind of get a nice kind of double whammy there. So I think that is the path.

By the way, it's exactly what the Falcons did this year. Yes, that's exactly what the Falcons plan was, even if their quarterback was in year one instead of year two. But same thing. Same thought process. That is a great call. And that's exactly, I think, what they should go down, the path that they should go down. Arthur Smith came from the Titans.

That's kind of funny. But it's, that is exact. There are more connections there, which we can get into. Yes, we can. I know you littered one out there. I loved with a QB Carousel show of your, the Tannahill trade option ideas. We're all very, like, interesting or at least sign ideas because it's, he's better than people realize. Tannahill, sneaky confident Ryan Tannahill.

Sneaky confident Ryan Tannahill. That is exactly what he is. It's, he can get you over that hill, man. He can, he can really do some things. But I think that's a path I would go on is you're kind of, You see what you got. You have some quarterback that can just manage the fort. I think he just understand.

So we're looking at the guys. Okay. So of this year's free agent class, here are the names I will throw out to you. Yeah. Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Teddy Bridgewater, Jacoby Preset, Andy Dalton. That's the one I kind of was thinking. Okay. So talking about connections.

Charles London, who is now the past game coordinator for the Titans, was the running backs coach in Chicago when Andy Dalton was there for a year. He was the quarterback's coach in Atlanta last season with Arthur Smith. That's the little connection point I was talking about. He is now back with the Titans. He was on the Texans staff, I believe, before Mike Vrable went to Tennessee. There's a lot of those guys. The way that they've built- A lot of Houston. The way they've rebuilt their offensive staff is very interesting to me at a time when other teams are trying to revamp. You know, we've had a lot of offensive play call or turnover. in the league this year.

And the perfect example to me, the Ravens have run out of road with their version of the offense that they're running. So they go out and get Todd Monk in instead of Greg Roman. The Titans have run out of road with their offensive identity like we alluded to. But instead of totally revamping what they're doing, they promoted Tim Kelly to be their offensive coordinator and then they got the band back together from like the 2014 Texan staff, which I don't know how to work out. I just think it's an interesting solution.

Yeah. But they also, they have a new old line coach. Like they, this is truly a, that's why it almost feels like it's a first year head coach. And I know free bowl is not, but it really does feel like a guy with the new staff. And I got my guys, all right, we're going to reset the identity. That's what this really does feel like for the Titans. It's their own kind of scheme version of going from the Oilers to the Titans. I mean, but the new old line coach and all that stuff.

Justin Outen is now the running backs coach and the run game coordinator who is, he was, he was with but he was the Packers' tight ends coach for those two years before going with Hackett. So that is one guy who- LaFloor connection from there because he was the one-year O.C. from Rable right there, too. But he, that's a guy who has never coached with Rable before. There's no real connections there. So we're trying to like sprinkle some newness into it. I think that's a good example of how they've tried to do it.

Yep, exactly. I think that was a big signal of the shifting is obviously the OC, but the O.O.I. coach always, that's kind of like, oh, okay, you guys were really revamping this. Like that, to me anyways, especially when Keith Carter was there for so many years. Who's that? Oh, the line coach. Oh, line coach, yes.

Yes. I know, I know everybody listens, knows every offensive line coach in the NFL, like the back of their hand. I'm trying to do better with this guy. So I'll try to say teams this year, too. When I say a random player, I'll try to say what team he plays for. I'm going to try to be better at that. I love when we did our award show. My mom listened to it.

And she goes, there's like four guys you didn't say teams. And I know my football. And you're talking about Hilton, Hyatt, who's the slot guy he talked about? I was like, oh yeah, yeah, Mike Hilton, the bagels. Yeah, thanks, mom. Sorry. Shaping the show to our moms is actually a good way to think about audience. It is.

It really is. It is. I forget you listens to them. Hi, mom. So if we, let's say Andy Dalton. Let's say Andy Dalton is the answer. Just as a stand it, okay? So you have Andy Dalton for one year and eight million, you know, whatever it is.

That's the rate, I think, is that eight to ten million. So, and then that's a symbol that, okay, you know, like, we understand what we are this year. With that as a bridge quarterback, we are leaning into a bridge quarterback solution. And in your mind, you're not drafting a quarterback this year. So, I'm not. With the 11th pick, then, is there any way you would lean if it's not quarterback? I know, obviously it depends on how the cards fall. But if you're thinking about areas specifically of need and priorities for this team, where would you start?

offensive line. You got to inject so much talent to that. And I think that has the double, double effect of having that established when you do try and make a move back quarterback, which I think would be next year. So I think that's what's interesting about that plan, right? Yeah.

So that's, if you're not inclined to go get a quarterback in this class, if you're not say like, oh, we'll trade this to move up to seven and if our guy is there, that allows you to build up an infrastructure to hopefully put your, next quarterback in position. You look at the free agent market for offensive Wyman this year. It's fucking brutal. I know you know it.

It's really bad. As soon as Elton Jenkins got extended, you know, guys like that, it starts to dry up really fast, especially tackle. So if you want to roll Petit for Airback out there at right tackle next year, he spent a third round pick on him, he was a rookie. You want to work on that as that's your guy. That's fine. Again, again, new line coach, you know, that's, they might, they might see something.

You never know. So that's fine. You spend a real asset on him, and I totally get that. A lot of the guys available in free agency that show are right tackles. Kaley McGarry, Juan Taylor, Mike McGlenshey, whether you'd want to spend on those guys in an entirely different conversation and one I'm going to have with myself a lot over the next month. But the left tackle market, it does not exist. You know, it's Isaiah win.

Do you want to spend, have won your flyer on Isaiah win? So if you can find a guy like Paris Johnson with the 11th overall pick, you can try to find a future left tackle for yourself. I think that's a really good way to think about it because now you're slowly starting to build up the infrastructure for when you eventually do pull the trigger on what becomes your quarterback of the future. Yep. And I think that that needs investment.

I think over and over you need at least some pedigree with some of your alignment. Yes, you can get lucky and find a guard in the third or fourth round or an undrafted guy. Yes, that happens. But generally, generally, if you look at the bona fide tackles, they're drafted in the first round. That's kind of how you have to go about it. I also think as far as where prospects are sitting on big boards and everything, that is right in the range where a lot of the linemen are kind of at, that's kind of low mid teens as opposed to a lot of, there's not really some bonafide top 10 linemen. There's more some ideas where people are kind of talking

themselves into it, like Broderick Jones from Georgia, Paris Johnson is one that you brought up, Peter Skerskinsky, I believe. Skoroski. I've never heard. heard it yet. So thank you. I assume that's what it is. There's a lot of O's in it. Yeah. He went to Northwestern. I wonder if he's from Chicago. He went to Me itself. Of course, with that last name, I get a guess. But actually, that's the one, he's the guy to me would actually be if they could get him at 11 would be a home run because his, I think he is the best offense alignment, but he has really short arms. So people think that he might have to kick inside the guard. But I think that's the best because he has versatility. So however else that you fill out the offense align, he can he can make it work. That's really valuable to have a guy that's like, okay, we'll just plop him. at one of the guards. Okay, maybe he has to play right tackle for a year until we find another guy, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's a guy that they can really hone in on as a target.

All right. So you spend your first round pick on a left tackle. We have to figure out what the interior of the offensive line looks like, you know, do you want to go out and get one of those mid to lower tier guards that are available in free agency? Right. Again, there are not a ton of options. If they find one that makes sense, though, I would be okay with it. So you have money, right? So you have some money to spend. So, Salamalo. So Malo. So Malo.

Dalton Reisner, you know, guys like that. Somo might not be a bad one. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Say three years, 30 million to give the Lake and Tomlinson contract to one of those guys. Again, these are all hypotheticals.

Again, it's a nice bridge. If you do have a young guy, a 24 quarterback, it's a nice kind of, hey, hold the fort until we maybe inject some younger talent there. So you try to use some of your resources to kind of piece together the offensive line because that's the biggest area of need. The other part of the offensive supporting cast, I think, is interesting. What would you do at receiver outside of Traylon Burks? I would find a guy.

I think really it's just the, I think I do, if I'm an offensive guy, so I'm a sucker for this. But I do think maybe the second round for them is a great time to, if they like a receiver, to find one there, to maybe find some young talent there. Because that's where, again, this makes sense as far as where these prospects are sitting. This receiver class doesn't have the high-end talent that we've seen the last few years, but there's a lot more of those second-round-ranging guys. So this just makes sense for me as far as what you need and you're not reaching for talent and where they're sitting in the draft.

But I think it's one of those, if you take some flyers on guys. If there's some mid-level guys you kind of like, give them a try-out period basically to see if they can hold the fort and then maybe down the road, that guy that has to be your number two this year, just throw a name out there or any free agent. That guy could be a number three or four done. Who you got? Zakias. Because Charles London was there with him in Atlanta last year.

Is he an RFA? I think he's a UFA. Is he a UFA? Oh, Zakias, man. He is the Rout, the per route wonder. I mean, he's 5-8, right? Like, I mean, there's some concern. The concerns there.

But he's a baller. Yeah, he's a UFA. He's a UFA? Oh, wow. So let's say, let's say you sign him for two years, 12. That's a perfect example, though. Right. That, like, right there.

Yep. You're not killing yourself. He's going to be a contributor. You can feel a functional NFL offense this year. You can rely on them. You can rely on them. There's a difference between tanking and looking like a joke and tanking at least like where there's some competent players out there.

So that's that, that brings me to my next, the next part of this conversation. So let's say in this again, in this hypothetical, you go draft a receiver in the second round. You sign a Zaki, Elamati Zakiya's type with on it. You're not spending a ton of money. Because what are you doing? Where are you really going if you're throwing money at big name free agents? There are big name veteran free agents at receiver to throw money at.

So you kind of quietly rebuild your receiving room. You use some of those resources to kind of get some pieces along the offensive line. And you're not rebuilding because look at the defense. The defense has pieces. And I think one of the biggest priorities that Rancarthen and that front office is going to have this year is resigning Jeffrey Simmons. So you give Jeffrey Simmons an extension, which it's interesting because there were no big extensions at defensive tackle in 2022. So the only real one was Aaron Donald. Who's the last big one?

Well, Chris Jones got the loss of the one. Chris Jones and DeForest Buckner are the two. So those are both in 2021. So the Buckner deal was at $21 million and the Jones deal was at $20 million. Donald is at $31. Simmons is worth that. He is a true building block. So you have the Donald contract is $31 million.

million dollars a year. I assume that the Titans front office will come into that conversation and say, that's a non-starter. That does not apply to you. I would love you, but that's not how this is going to go. You look at the Jones deal, the Buckner deal, say, okay, Buckner makes $21 million a year. How's four years, 88 million? Yeah, the natural inflation from that. Yep. And I think you do that without thinking about it. So, and that's why this stuff is interesting to me, is that we use the term rebuild. And I think that, because somebody said this me about the Colts the other day. We're talking about them rebuilding. It's like, no, they're not rebuilding. You're not going to ship off all your pieces, but you have flexibility. And that's where the Titans are, too. So if you have Jeffrey Simmons now on an extension,

De Nico Autry, I think you keep on, he's a very good player. He's not prohibitively expensive. So he's still on the team, and he's get a little bit older. Maybe this is his last year there. Harold Landry comes back this year. Okay. You have. That's important. That's important. People forget Yes, he didn't play last year. They were good on D. Arguably, you have your starting secondary. I know Molden was hurt all year with the groin, but you have Fulton, McCreary, Ammoney Hooker, Kevin Byard. Bired and Hooker are both on extensions.

Fulton and McCrear are both on their rookie deals. And then Molden, hopefully, we'll be back next year. And McCrear was a hit, like a second round. Really solid player is a second round corner. He's going to be a fine starter at the minimum for the next three, four, five, seven years. So if that's the core of your defense and then maybe with some of this excess money that you freed up, you go get one or two more pieces along the defensive line. You know, whatever those guys looked like. Draymont Jones was somebody I was coming back to just because he's their type.

So there are some guys where you're looking at rotational pass rush pieces, your Arden Keys, players like that. And it's just not, Landry is obviously bendy, but this team loves their like big pocket pushers. They sound by Dupre for a reason. That's the epitome. Mario Edwards is like the type of guys that they're chasing at that position. Do you need to watch? Big tweener. Big tweeters that could go power rush you,

ball rush you straight into the quarterback. That's what they love. So you go get a guy like that, okay, to come and maybe fill out that defensive line rotation, especially if you're going to move on from Bud Dupree. And now you have this defense that is not that of a team that's tearing it down, but you have a lot of core pieces for, let's say next year,

you go draft your quarterback in the top 10 after winning like six games this year. Yeah. So now you have a team that's full of real players and now you're on a rookie quarterback contract. So it's not like this either or thing. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. So that becomes the challenging and interesting part of navigating this little

in-between space is how do you make sure that when you go get that guy and you're able to save the money, you have players that are worth spending on with the excess value that that rookie quarterback contract creates? It's what the Jets wanted to do. but they just missed on the quarterback. Like what Zach Wilson. I mean, seriously, I'm being funny, but also being serious. You also have a GM that was with the Rams in 2016 when they moved up for golf.

So it's like this, this guy is, he's willing to be, he has that some little less need in him. I do think that. I know he was last with the 49ers, but I do think he has maybe some aggression. If, say, next year. 49ers have plenty aggressive. Plenty aggressive. Yeah, right. Exactly.

But he, I know we said I wouldn't do it move up with a quarterback. I don't think they will from 11 to anywhere. But I'm saying even next year, if they win the six games, they're surprisingly competitive or, you know, kind of that middle ground, win seven games. And there's picking eight, nine, ten. He's willing, he's willing to, I think he's going to be willing to like try something. Like, so that's the thing. It doesn't have to be just the, oh, my God, they go two and 15 type of year, three and 14. Like, they can still win those games.

Because that defense, like you just laid out, Landry coming back. What if they still like David Long? And they have the money now. to kind of make him work. So I was going to ask you that. Would you re-sign David Long if you now had this $40 million in salary cap space and a glaring, glaring hole at linebacker. I love him. He's missed five games the last two years.

He misses a lot of time. Why he got some recognition this year was because he was finally healthy for a long stretch. And then, of course, he got hurt at the end of the year. But they know him. They know his medicals. I think if any team was willing to take a chance on it. But it has to make sense. I wouldn't break the bank for him.

I know other teams would probably would. He is a damn good player. is my second team all pro. But I do think, two mentions to our all pro show. I'm very proud of that. It was a great show. But I would.

I'm sure Vrable loves them. But that's a guy, again, you're going to have a rookie, in our theory, in our presentation here, if you do have that rookie contract quarterback, you can afford that. And also now you have a bona fide good defense

with other pieces that you can drop in there because you're still going to have a room. They have over $100 million in space in 2020. 120, I think they have. So they have wiggle room to do that if they really like David Long. But I do think that that would make sense to me, especially if I think in the draft, they should really revamp on offense. I said receiver in the second round, this tight end class is freaking loaded.

Players. Just go get offensive players and playmakers. That is what you need. Yes, they need dudes. Enough of this kind of like average kind of kicking the can at those spots. They hit on the titan last year. I'm not even going to try his name. So I've been on an over.

for like 14 streak right now. I got to change my bat. Chigzo O'Conlo. Okay, a quok. I actually wouldn't maybe would have got that one. But he's a hit, but he's an F only, but he's a weapon that they can use.

I mean, you drop it in another good tight end there. Now you have a cool room that can really do some stuff. So they've options. And I think this class makes sense for what they need. I really do. I think this team can, in a hurry, revamp this, even though it doesn't seem that way right now on February 23rd.

I think it's why it's important to plan out your financial. This is what NFL teams do. It's three years in advance. What we're just doing right now, there's a board in every room in the salary cap guy's room, the big whiteboard with everybody's contracts on little plaques and everything figuring this all out. So when you're thinking about the Jeffrey Simmons contract and how it fits into your five-year financial plan, you're probably thinking about when a rookie quarterback contract is going to arrive to make that all possible and when you're going to go find that guy. And I think that this is where they are. Now that they've played out the string with the Ryan Tannahill version of this team, which I think is totally reasonable.

And I understand a lot of the moves that happened. I understand them restructuring him and trying to free up more space. I understand the Julio Jones trade. Like I get why they did a lot of the things they did. But it's over now. The GM got fired because it didn't end up working out. And now you're starting over again. So now I think it's about understanding which pieces of your core are worth investing in, which are worth building around, and how you kind of restart this thing with a young,

quarterback to give you the flexibility that a team like the Eagles has because you just can't be in that space where you're paying $35, $40 million to your quarterback and trying to live in the margins for a long time. I think trying to squeeze two, three years out of it is fine. But committing to that version of your team over the long run, I think it's just really hard to do. The benefit, and we talked about this with, when we talked about Veach, the chiefs GM, is having Mahomes is you have always have that to fall back on. And we can revamp everything else around him.

That's what they did this year. I mean, it worked out pretty great. But again, when you're not living in that world or the rookie contract world, rookie cuby contract world, you're almost building up for that little short window and then you have to revamp. A little short window, you have to revamp. There's not kind of that sustainedness that the Titans have hit is kind of rare how they were built because they were just kind of living in their own little world of how they had the contracts,

how they even played offense of football. but kind of just saying that the room for error isn't as great. I know this all sounds obvious, but this is just what you kind of have to do if you live in this world. You're building up for these one years where all the contracts align where you have the good defense with the kind of middle ground quarterback and you have other weapons around it because they can afford to live in that world. So I'm just saying kind of the obvious here.

But again, that's what you're building towards if you live in this. It's just that one maybe two year peak. And it's like, okay, we got to reshuffle some things. And that's where they're at. That's just the Titans now have to pay the bill. That's kind of what they're stuck with. And they didn't push it into the red the same way that some of these other teams have, right? Like the Falcons, where you're just under this financial boulder and it's going to take you a long time to get out of it.

The Titans aren't in that space. They have a lot more flexibility. So I think that they can retain some of these pieces in a way a team like Atlanta couldn't. And I like when you're kind of in this retooling mode of having these little pockets of veterans without throw. out your roster to kind of maintain whatever culture that you've built on defense that's easy right you got byard you got you guys pretty much at every level of the defense on offense like which is huge too by the way having one in each room is a big deal and that's always how i would try to think about it yep that's always how i would try to think about it so and that's why like moving

out from robert woods is tough because now you have a very young receiver room most likely if you don't go out and make any sort of move and that's the zakias thing makes a lot of sense because he can set the tone especially if he knows you know knows kind of how the receiver room wants to go or passing game coordinator room months ago. Like having that vet that kind of set drills, this, this pays dividends, especially when you have a guy that's, it was a project. Traillen Berks is a project. He still is.

He's still is. He's very talented, but he's going to take some more growth. So having a professional room really does help. And then Ben Jones on the offensive line, I think is that. Yes. Like he's been there forever. I mean, clearly is. God, how old is he?

He's going to be 34 this year. Just an awesome career. Just like a really good NFL player for a long time is what Ben Jones was. All the guys, all the injuries that they had, everything else that happened around them. Like, he actually was like, always just steady. Like, so good for him. Really, really good for him. Last question.

Yeah. Did you just hang on to Derek Henry this year? 16 million against the cap. I think you do. I think that there's an argument for doing it too. Yeah. And then if you maybe like another guy in this draft, it's another, it's a loaded runoffback class. Like that's, again, the thing's kind of aligned for him.

I think you hold on to him because, I mean, but also who else they have under contract? They have Hassan Haskins, who I liked as more of a kind of like a role playing past protection back coming out of college. And other than that, it's like who else are you going to give touches to? You have to give the touches to somebody. So might as well give it to one guy. Like it might as well just run them as long as he wants to go or pat his stats a little bit. 16 million is a lot to pay running back. But again, he's been such a foundational piece for you.

you kind of lean on him to be your offense no matter who's playing quarterback for you. I assume that he's a big part of what they do in the building, all of those different kinds of things. At a certain point, like, how much money do you need to save? Exactly.

Because of these guys moving on from all these guys. So I think that's going to be the next big question. They have to answer outside of Tannahill is what they want to do with Derek Henry. But I definitely understand the argument for just saying, you know what, let's just keep them. Yeah,

it's worth you don't want to create all this room and then max out the credit card and be like, oh, shit, we just spent money to spend money. It's like, you know, my touches have to go somewhere. So it makes sense to me, especially if they move on from Tana Hill. So the team that I feel like is kind of an interesting counterbalance to this is Minnesota. The Wario version. The Wario version is a fun way to put it.

So the Vikings are, they're obviously in a slightly different situation just because they made the playoffs this year. But I think the connecting piece between these two is that Ryan Tannahill is slated to have the fifth biggest cap hit in the NFL this season of $36 million. Kurt Cousins is slated to have the sixth biggest cap hit in the NFL of the season at $36 million, just like a little bit less than Tanna Hill. So you're kind of operating with that same quarterback range, but the Vikings made the playoffs last season, and you can't really easily move on from some of these guys because of the restructures that they did last year to kind of put that team together. So if you're Minnesota and you're thinking about the best way to approach your roster this year with Kirk Cousins or over the next two years, what does that? look like for you. God. This is, I've been struggling actually a little bit with this. With cousins, you have to make this contract work, especially how they, they've maxed out their credit card. So that's what

they have to in some way shape or form. I don't know if you want to do this, but isn't a way to give you some breathing room is to extend him in the weirdest way. And that is, it sounds so leaning into the punch, counterintuitive, but it's like that's kind of how you have to go about it. That's just the situation they're in. But that's also, do we really want to do that? Do we really want to have more cousins on the books, you know, just continue down this path? So that, that's the first answer I could think of and to give yourself some breathing room, but then that also just has the questions that follow that. I mean, other than that, and I don't think this team wants to explore, like, not having cousins as their quarterback. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't think they want to go down that path, especially if there's, about to pay Justin Jefferson a record setting contract. So it's, I don't know, I think that's the path that they have to go down. That's the vegetables they have to eat. How long? How long? It's a weird one to two years. I mean, well, it could be, yeah, be a two year extension.

So that would make sense to me. So it would be 2025, through 2025 of a free agent. But I wouldn't do that. It's like, I couldn't do that. So I think you got to, I don't know, I don't know. That his, his situation is, it's in their situation. with him is just so like delicate. What are you leading towards?

What do they think it would like hold? Yeah, give me your answer, but. I think that if you extend him, you extend him in a similar way that you did last year, where it's a one year extension and hopefully that could pump his cap number down this year. And so part of the, what's interesting here is that he has a no trade clause. So if they were going to try to trade him this year, he has a full no trade clause. the way that they structured his last extension, he has a $20 million roster bonus coming to him this year.

15 million of it comes in March, 5 million of it comes in September. I think that may have been with the flexibility to trade him at some point in mind. I don't know if trading him this year makes the most sense. But I do think that giving yourself the chance to maybe move on from him next year might make the most sense. If they traded him this year, They traded him right now.

Okay. Let's say the Saints miss on Derek Carr. The Saints miss on Derek Carr. And you have, it's a, you know, Kirk Cousins wanted to go to New Orleans. These are all hypotheticals. They don't really have a ton of avenues to go get a quarterback. They're drafted in the 20s. They don't have a second round pick.

You know, some of their higher-end draft capital isn't there because of the Hawkinson trade. They got a fourth-rounder back in it. But it's like they don't have a ton of ammo if they wanted to go get a rookie quarterback this year. And also is rolling out a rookie quarterback with this core what you'd want to do? And these are like the tough questions that you have to answer. You mean, Kirk Cousins, who is the most hit quarterback in like the recent memory? Like I think he took the most hits and pressures in recent memory. Yeah, I don't want a rookie quarterback behind that. So I think that you just, I would try to get that number down a little bit this year to give

yourself a little bit more flexibility. And if you're going to move on from him, have it be next year. but if you're Quasito Fomitza, if you're Kevin O'Connell, if you're the organization, I think you have to plan an exit ramp at some point because this is the conversation that we're having. Even if Kirk Cousins is making $40 million on his next extension and the quarterback market now is at $55 million, is that enough? Is that enough savings to justify paying him whatever percentage that percentage that Patrick Mahomes makes some of these other guys. I don't know if it is.

I don't know if you can continue to lock yourself into this sort of quarterback at this sort of price when you don't have to. You can find an off ramp here somewhere. This is a new regime. This is not the team that brought Kirk Cousins here. I understand wanting to have him there for the short term. But I also think that at a certain point, you have to look at how teams win and how difficult it is to do it with this sort of quarterback contract and just say, we did what we could. but we have to have more flexibility here. They have to hit the eject button at some point.

I love your term to off ramp. They have to build it at some point. And I thought it was that their complaint last year made sense. I mean, in some way, shape, or form. They kind of were like, hey, this is our roster. Might as well just be a little bit competitive with it. They, of course, you know, outkick their coverage a little bit with how well they did. But I'm sure no one is complaining about that in Minnesota.

So I think that's exactly it is that. have to figure out, I think that's really what it is. The one year kind of extension and then next year is kind of like, okay, now we really have to rip the band-aid and find our next plan at quarterback. And I think having cousins around at least gives you some way of not being a total shit show. That's why you pay for Kirk Cousins. It's just that, again, competence. But that's like they have no other quarterbacks on the roster if they traded him.

So it's like they would be desperate to find one. And again, this would be another Bridgewater team or Bridgewater team. Bridge quarterback team. That was a slip right there. He's very aptly named. It's so funny because that's exactly what his role is now in his career. But honestly, they would be in the Andy Dalton section two. And that's another thing.

Do you pay, what did we say potential quarterback for Andy Dalton? It would be eight to 10 million. We're just throwing out numbers there. Is Andy Dalton, you know, a half tier below Kirk Cousins right now? but you're saving $30 million. Isn't that kind of... But also can you do that? You made the playoffs last year.

Like, yeah. Can you take that conscious step back at this stage? I don't think you can. I think that you try to... I don't even... Or you just kind of eat your vegetables. With him making $36 million this year. That's what it kind of feels like, right?

So you can do that too. That is an option. So here's some of the things that could happen. But isn't everything else going to kind of like fall apart around them? Well, there are $24 million over the cap right now, okay? if they make Adam Thiel in a post-June first cut, let's have that be the first. Which they save $13 million. $20 million.

I have. It's like, well, they, they restructured him and Harrison Smith last year. And now the bill has come due for each of those guys. Yes, yes, they has. Some other kind of easy ones. You can move on from Jordan Hicks. That's $5 million. C.J. Hamm, who is the remnant of a previous regime that wanted to play a certain way.

That's another $3 million. Okay. So let's say, arguments sake, Harrison Smith can't play on that 19 million number. So you get that down somehow. If you make him a post-June first cut along with Adam Thielen, you save another $15 million. Now you're at $12 million in cap space, even with Kirk Cousins on that $36 million number. You can also potentially move on from Daven Cook if you wanted to.

You can extend T.J. Hawkinson. You can extend DeNeil Hunter. There are ways that they can do this with Couss. at 36 million and not lock himself, not lock themselves into anything beyond this year if they want to maintain flexibility. Or do they want him on the roster next year so he doesn't walk for nothing and you can potentially trade him and get something for him? These are like all the questions that you have to ask.

I think I would do everything in my power to make sure I can move on from him in the next two years. Yes. Yes. What was like as soon as Derek Carr signed that extension last year? that's kind of like what this feels like here it's like okay that's an extension to get moved or cut like like that's kind of what it feels like i think that's exactly what you're cousins is starting with a much better piece of leverage he has a fully guaranteed deal to come there he has a no trade clause

all of these different things that have stacked up at kirk cousins his favor he he he i know we're going to talk about franchise tags on a different show but that is uh this dude like this dude played it right well he has certain hand of cards dealt to him and he every move he'd made was exactly what he needed to do to maximize his benefits. The one guy that really jumps out to me here is part of this experiment. Zadarius Smith is making $15.5 million this year. You can save $12 million if he move on from Zadarius Smith. I thought that was kind of the one that maybe started.

Sidarius Smith's production last year was much better than $15 million worth of pass rushing. So does that make sense? He was a really good player for you last year. He was. And I think what they do with something like that, sends a real message for what they want to try to try to accomplish this year. Yes. I mean,

this is kind of what we're saying is that it's not rebuild or anything like that. It's a revamp, remodels. Like this is what these teams have to do. And that's what they, I understand each path they take that. And that's why it's hard for me to go like they should do this. Because it's just a lot of these,

this is a situation they're in, but all these paths do make sense to me. Like, but even like this is a Darius Smith thing. If they cut them out, I'd go, okay, I understand why you did that. But if they kept them, I'd be like, okay, I understand why you did that as well. But I think the having, again, God, it's just the exit plan.

I just love what you're saying. Just the off ramp makes so much sense, especially when now that Justin Jefferson's about to get paid. And now you're going to have to live in that world as well is now we have to find, are we paying this much for our quarterback and our receiver down the road? But that's a whole different discussion anyways. But I'm losing my beat of thought here. The one thing we have not talked about at all is, is the change in defensive philosophy that is going to be coming for this team this year.

And how significant and drastic of a change it is to go from Ad Donatelle to Brian Flores, I think, in my opinion, speaks to how blank of a slate the defense might be. Whether it's like, we have no blueprint. There's nothing we need to carry over between last year's defense and this year's defense. Last year's defense was a disaster. We maybe have a couple pieces, but everything is on the table here. And that's why it seems like some pretty significant changes and some pretty big swings on that side of the ball might be possible in terms of the guys they could move on from. The complaint about the Vikings defense was that they were very basic and standard and run the zone coverages.

One of the common complaints was, why don't they just run more man coverage? And I think my pushback on that was they can't. They have like, they have, they have, uh, Medicare, Medicaid at corner on each side. Like try to run man, man coverage, two candidates for that. But now they're going to a guy that lives in man coverage. So this is going to be, uh, very, very interesting. Uh, like you said, a little bit of right turn here as far as, uh, how they go about the defense. So like you said, how they piece that together is going to be interesting too, because they

have to figure out that DB room. I know they took some guys in last year's draft, but they didn't really get much out of last year's draft class. So now, all of them were hurt. Andrew Booth is, that was his MO, who's super talented, but he had an injury history. So they kind of knew that going in. But I think that's how, if they get something out of those guys, that can really kind of inject some youth and talent, obviously, into that room.

That's a big question mark for them. All right. That's all we got. That's all we got. That was fun. Titans, the Vikings. Oh my. Listen, it's Thursday, February, 23rd.

third. I think they're next. Titans and Vikings would next to each other when you pick teams and like Madden too. I think I really do because or at least when they went by the nicknames anyways. I could be totally wrong. That sounds right. That sounds right. TV, there wouldn't be a you. I know. That's what I'm going through alphabet. Hey, we've heard how my brain works on this show for last couple weeks. You against the alphabet and just the English language in general is one of the greatest rivalries in the NFL. All right. That's all we got. We will be back tomorrow. with another show. We're going to talk about

the franchise tag. Not necessarily who's going to get tagged, the candidates for it, that kind of stuff. We're going to talk about what we can learn from the recent history

of the franchise tag. So talk about what's happened over the last few years. Is it a good idea to use the franchise tag? Is it a bad idea to use the franchise tag? Is it position specific?

These are all questions I don't know the answer to and that is why we're going to do this show. So please come back and check that out tomorrow. Please, if you have not go leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast. We really appreciate that.

It does help the show. I'd consider it a personal favor. A lot of you have done that. It means a lot to us. If you have not listened to Sean Reed's new narrative podcast series between the lines, the first two episodes have run on the athletic football show feed over the last two weeks. This week's was about with the history of player activism in the NFL, how Colin Kaepernick and everything that happened in 2016 changed that conversation. conversation, how the murder of George Floyd and kind of the resulting response from both players and the league has kind of reshaped that conversation. You talk to Doug Baldwin, Devin McCordy, just a ton of stuff that is worth exploring and chewing on in that episode. So if you have not gone to check that out, highly encourage you to do that.

We will be back tomorrow. Until then, I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.