The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - How to watch college football as an NFL fan with Andy Staples & Giants and Vikings camp visits

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

What should NFL fans be watching for this college football season? The Athletic’s Andy Staples and Robert Mays discuss the QBs, coaches and other top talent to monitor this year. Plus, Giants reporter Dan Duggan joins the show to talk about Daniel Jones and the additions to the defense. Finally, could this year really be different for the Vikings? Chad Graff stops by to talk about it.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Great show for you guys today. We have two final team writer visits that we're going to bring to you guys a little bit later in the show. We had Dan Duggan, our Giants writer, he and I talked. Again, it's hard to keep track of this. Last Friday at Giants Browns Joint Practices.

Very glad that I ran into Dan there on a return trip to Cleveland. So good to get him on, talk about a team that we've talked about a team. that we've talked about a decent amount on the show in regard to their defense and Daniel Jones. A lot of intrigue there. We also talk with Chad Graf, our Vikings writer, earlier this week. That's it. 15 team writers, 18 camp visits, 18 teams, 17 camp visits. I hope you guys enjoyed it.

I know that I did. It was so good to be back out on the road. So really looking forward to those conversations. Before we do that, though, I'm very excited to welcome the athletic zone. Andy Staples. Andy, how you doing, buddy? What's up, Robert? I am not a lot.

I'm back home. Happy to be back home. I turned 34 years old today, which is, I don't know how I feel about that, but overall doing okay. There's nothing to it. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of whatever.

We did a big blowout for my 40th, which ended with me puking in a sink and then needing IVs the next day. And so since then, birthdays have just been very tame events, 40, three's next month. It's not going to be much of a big deal. For me, it's just all about food now. You can appreciate this. We went to a two-star mission restaurant in Chicago last night. It was like a tasting menu. It was 10 courses. That's how I want to spend my birthday now. It's just going ham on the most ridiculous meal I possibly can. I don't care about anything else. When I was younger, I'd hear about these guys that would do bachelor parties where they go just get a bunch of

stakes and play golf. This is the lamest bachelor party I ever heard. Now I'm like, that sounds like the most amazing experience I can imagine. I am so... That's what I'm after these days. That's my speed. So I'm glad that we're on the same page. Where we are on different pages is with our knowledge of college football.

I admittedly come into college football every single year knowing next to nothing. I am not an intense college football watcher in part because I watch football all day on Sunday and I have human relationships that I would like to maintain and having one day a week in the fall is usually necessary for making that happen. Well, I will tell you, I didn't watch much NFL until a few years. When they started adopting the offensive concepts from college or stealing, whatever you want to call them, the game got almost like to watch. But the amount of NFL I've watched has increased exponentially since my son got into football. So now human relationships plus football equals more football. And so we just watch it constantly. Yeah, unfortunately, my girlfriend isn't into Penn State, Minnesota at 11 a.m. on a Saturday. That's not how we cultivate our relationship. When you explain the glory of Daniel Fa'alele, the Minnesota right tackle, who I'm familiar with his work. I did a story on him for SI before he'd actually played a high school football game. He already had 20 offers before he had

ever played a game. He just came over from Australia and was six, nine, four hundred pounds and could move. And everybody's like, sure, we don't, we've never seen you play. We don't care. Don't care. So with this gap in our knowledge established here, that's what we're going to talk about today. I want you to help me understand how I should be watching college football, which starts very soon, by the way. We are on the precipice here once again. I want you to help me understand how I should watch it this year as an NFL fan. I think that would be helpful for our audience as they're trying to think about what college football looks like through that NFL lens.

I think that would be a lot of fun. And there's a lot of different ways to do it because you can watch it from a draft perspective. You can watch it from do I want this coach perspective because there could be a couple that they may want to head that way. And more really, even if you feel like you like your coach, you like your QB, just to see some of the concepts that you're going to see in the pro game because there's more trading back and forth than there ever was. And Joe Brady helping LSU win a national title and becoming the offensive coordinator for the Panthers. Now Jake Pete, who is with the Panthers, goes back

to LSU to take the Brady stuff back. I mean, it is definitely a lot of movement back and forth. And that's good. That's good for both sports because it's made college, I think, a little less gimmicky and it's made the NFL a lot more fun offensively. The cross-pollination has made everything more interesting. We'll get to some of that. I want to start with the quarterbacks, though, because obviously that's the huge storyline every single year, especially for people that root for teams that are one and five by Halloween.

And you're looking for something to do with your weekend. You look for something to look forward to. And so obviously last year, you know, the Jets are watching Trevor Lawrence games by the time week five rolls around. So I'm curious. And then it all falls apart. Listen, Zach Wilson looks pretty good so far. So not a bad consolation prize up to this point.

Let's talk about the potential 2022 class of quarterbacks. Who are the principal players? What should I know if I'm walking into this cold? Well, you're going to want to know Spencer Rattler at Oklahoma and Sam Hall at North Carolina. Those are the two that are kind of obvious pro prospects, high level, been good since they got there. Now, Spencer Rattler had to sit behind Jalen Hertz for a year. Sam Howell was good the moment he got there. I mean, the first game he ever played, true freshman, starting in South Carolina. South Carolina bombs a punt to the four. North Carolina needs a touchdown to win the game. He takes

him on a 96-yard drive to win the game. First game he ever played. So he's just been that guy since he got on campus. Those two are the ones that I think everybody's going to be watching. the guy who's the wow and his team is going to be the most, probably the most entertaining to watch. Their offense is awesome. Their defense is terrible. It's Matt Corral at Ole Miss. So you're going to love their games because it's just wild back and forth. If you saw them play Alabama last year, they gave Alabama hell.

Nick Saban, obviously Lane Kiffin knows quite a bit of how Nick Saban works from having been his OC. But what Lane is doing kind of marrying the old. Baylor offense with what he used to do at Alabama just drives opposing defensive coaches crazy because they go for it on fourth down almost every time when they're fourth and short. But then you've got Corral. And when he came into the quarterback competition last year, he thought, okay, can he win this? Because the guy he was going against this guy named John Rice Plumley, who is lightning fast,

really good runner, also a very good baseball prospect. and the thought was, okay, maybe Plumley has a little more athletic gifts and they go with that because they don't know what kind of offensive line they have. But Corral, his arm is outstanding. He is athletic. I don't even think athletic enough is the right phrase. He's a good athlete. He can escape.

He's not necessarily going to escape or you're not going to use him as a Lamar Jackson like weapon, but he will escape trouble, get you out of a bad play into a neutral or good play. But here's the problem with Matt Corral. He had two games last year where he combined for 11 interceptions. He threw six interceptions against Arkansas and five against LSU. He only had three the rest of the year. But those two, and against Arkansas, I was just like, what are you doing? Why are you trying to fit those balls into those windows?

And so I wonder will NFL general managers, coaches, look at that and go, I don't, we can't have a game like that. That would just be the worst possible outcome. So we just know we can't have him. If he can go through a season where he doesn't have a disaster game like that, he's probably the best mix of tools on the board. But you can't do. If he has another six interception game, it's going to be really tough. Obviously, Spencer Rattler is at Oklahoma.

We've seen the pipeline of Oklahoma quarterbacks that's come out over the last few years. what sort of different flavor does he put on their offense and does he bring as a quarterback than the guys that we've seen come out of that program over, you know, since Baker Mayfield, essentially. So he's probably a little more like Baker. Nobody's going to be the top end athlete that Kyler was. And Hertz is a much better power runner than most quarterbacks you'll ever see. Spencer's got a nice blend of speed and an arm and everything else. And I think, you know, the end of last season, there's really not the end of last season,

kind of middle on, he settled in. He was comfortable in that offense. And people forget that Lincoln Riley had not had a homegrown starting quarterback since he's been the head coach at Oklahoma. And actually back to when he was the O.C. Because Baker started games at Texas Tech as a freshman. Kiler started games at Oklahoma, or at Texas A&M as a freshman. And then Baker and Kyler both sat at Oklahoma before they got to.

play. Jalen Hertz was a two-year starter at Alabama and sat for a year behind Tua as a junior and then saved them in the SEC championship game. So all of those guys had extensive experience going into becoming the starter. Spencer didn't. He had four snaps against LSU in the in the in the in the peach bowl, but not much else. And so it took him a little while. And Lincoln actually yanked him out of the Texas game because he just, he looked off. The offense was off. And so he took him out. He put Tanner Mortykeye in for a little bit. And then he puts him back in. These names are incredible. Oh, Tanner Mortycai. Yeah. Tanner Morty at TCU now. So it's transfers, transfer portal is a wonderful thing.

But yeah, so Spencer comes back in, leads them to a four overtime win. And then it's just lights out the rest of the season. And so I think, I think if he has the kind of year we think he's going to have, he's going to be the one that everybody's looking at. There's a couple more. Malik Willis at Liberty, his arm is just off the charts good. He's a very good athlete. He's going to throw a bunch of touchdown passes. He's going to run for a bunch of touchdowns. That offense is the Hugh Free's offense.

It used to be at Ole Miss. You've not, you wonder how that's going to translate. Can he step right in and play in the NFL? And I do think NFL coaches have kind of come together a little bit with the college coaches and are willing to make things a little bit easier for a guy early on. But Malik's one, I think, would probably need a year or so to get adjusted because what he has to do offensively is nowhere near what you're going to have to do in the NFL. There's a lot of the coach kind of telling you, hey, throw it here.

And you're not going to get that in the NFL. But you can't make up that arm strength. You can't. That doesn't exist in other players in this class. And I think that we've seen that over the last couple of years, right? Is that teams that have bet on the traits have been rewarded for it. And I think there are going to be some mistakes associated with that line of thinking as teams search for the next Josh Allen or look at a guy like Justin Herbert and say,

screw it. But Josh is a weird one because Josh ran a pro-style offense. Like I remember going to when the quarterbacks will go and work with their private coaches over spring break. And Josh was out working with George Whitfield. And he's in there with Jared Guantanano, who is. at Tennessee at the time and Kenny Hill who was at TCU and is now TCU's quarterbacks coach guys who were in these uptempo offenses and so they they brought a former NFL offensive coordinator in to teach them how to set protections and change

change protections and Josh already knew all that stuff yeah he's just he's just kind of yawning because that's what he did every day at North Dakota or at Wyoming with with the guys from North Dakota State but the other guys were just lost so Josh Josh was a case of can he be more accurate? And he's still the first one I can remember that got more accurate when he got the NFL. How would you character?

Let's talk about Sam How for a second because the very little that I've heard about him, they run a very, and just what I've watched after watching Diami Brown last year and Javante Williams and Michael Carter. Super RPO heavy offense. He's like 6-1,

so he's not overly big. So in terms of like physical stature and profile maybe doesn't compare to some of these other guys that we've considered top five picks in the past. What aspects of his game do you think him make him worthwhile as somebody who could be a consideration that high in the draft? Is unflappableness a word?

I don't know if that's a word. In quarterback parlance, I think it is. It's not that he doesn't care. It's just that nothing really bothers him. And it's a nice thing to have when you get in some crazy situations. And he just seems like a calming influence on that. that team. And if you talk to Mack Brown or Phil Longo, the offensive corner, they'll tell you he's just always like that. He just, he's always chill. Nothing ever seems to get to him. He doesn't

get rattled. And I think that that helps, especially, you know, if you're going to go to a bad NFL team, there are going to be some situations that are going to rattle you, you know. Trevor Lawrence is, is kind of one of those guys. He's one of those, you know, we're going to, we'll be fine. And that's the sort of thing you need when three of your starting offensive linemen are out in a preseason game in Marcus Davenport is pushing your left tackle into your lap every play. Phil Longo's background is interesting, huh? It was a very... Spent three years at slippery rock, three years at San Houston State.

Yep. I mean, it's... And all those guys just come out of the woodwork. Yep. I mean, clearly that team is really good. I mean, obviously, they are just pumping out prospects from that North Carolina offense, which isn't something they've done over the last decade. Well, they're also getting more talent.

They're getting a lot better talent than they have been. When Matt got back to North Carolina, he immediately started locking down the state. Sam Howe was one of the first guys he got. So that's basically the Mac told me he passed the NCAA recruiting test because he'd been out, so he needed to take it again. And his next call is to Sam Howe. And Sam Howe was committed to Florida State. He really wanted to play for a guy named Walt Bell, who was the offensive coordinator

under Willie Taggart at Florida State. Walt gets the UMass head coaching job, and obviously Sam's not going to UMass. And he still wanted to go to Florida State, and he basically kept telling Willie. You know like Amherst in the fall? Listen, my guy Dan Wetzel loves it, but Marcus Camby, I'm sure Coach Cowell likes it just fine,

but Sam Hal wanted to play a little higher level. So he still wanted to play at Florida State. He keeps asking Willie, who's your OC, who's your OC? And Willie's like, well, I know it's going to be a good one, but I can't tell you yet. And Sam's like, well, what are you going to do? And so Mac calls him. First question, who's your OC? And Max's like, I'll let you know. And like three days later, he's hired Phil Longo. And Phil had recruited Sam and

Ole Miss. And so immediately Sam's like, all right, cool, I'm in. Let's go. And that was what happened. And that's why Florida State is sort of where it is right now coming off a three and six season. And North Carolina is coming off a season where they went to the Orange Bowl and now potentially could have a double-digit win year. Sliding doors moments like that are amazing. I want to just talk about the conversation about the state of this quarterback class in general. Because when we're talking about teams, I think the Broncos are a great example, right? Yeah.

You have a top 10 pick. You elect not to take Justin Fields. And now you kind of go back into the quarterback wilderness, whatever, after whatever this year, what Teddy Bridgewater looks like. And the part of the conversation around that is this was the great quarterback class, right? Like the 2021 group was the year to get your guy if you wanted to. The Broncos have never gotten anybody out of a great quarterback class before. that's never happened

listen i was the beneficiary of them decided they didn't want to take just field so i'm going to take that every single time but now i'm looking at dain brugler's first round mock which is insane that he's able to do this like two days after the 2021 draft ends but anyway and i see like five quarterbacks in the first round four guys in the top 10 so is this just a case of we're going to push the quarterbacks up again or are we getting to a place where there are going to be three or four or five potential quarterback prospects in every single first round moving forward. No, I think that's more coming from the NFL.

I don't think like the quarterbacks in this class are definitely not as good as the quarterbacks in last year's class. They're not. So if the same number get taken, it's because NFL teams just feel like they need a quarterback and they're reaching. Yeah, just not a desperation. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not, I mean, like Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields. those guys don't come along very often.

Mack Jones was a very pleasant surprise, but in terms of an operator, Mac Jones and Joe Burrow are pretty similar on that front. Joe's a lot better athlete probably than Mac Jones, but in terms of just how they see the game, how they operate, how they run the offense on time, like, you just don't see that very often. And so that's, yeah, this is not that class.

There are some guys, though, like J.T. Daniels at Georgia was a five-star recruit at USC, starts as a true freshman at USC, gets hurt season opener of sophomore year, Keaton Slovis comes in and plays great, and suddenly there's no place. Another incredible name. Yeah, Keaton Slovis, by the way, coached by Kurt Warner in high school. So J.T. goes to Georgia where they've had all kinds of quarterback troubles. I won't relitigate Jake Fromm versus Justin Fields, because, hey, we got to see it in the preseason. Bill's Bears last weekend.

I didn't even think about that. But, oh, trust me, college football Twitter was a buzz when we realized that was what was going to happen. So, you know, they've had just been star crossed. They had a guy Jamie Newman who came from Wake Forest last year as a transfer and they thought, okay, he's going to be the starting quarterback. He bails in the middle of camp. They ended up having a start a former walken named Stets and Bennett for the early part of the season until JT's knee got right.

and once JT got in there, that offense took off. He's playing for Todd Munkin, former Bucks offensive coordinator. God, I'm a big Todd Munkin guy. Big Todd Munkin guy. So that's a lot of chucking it, a lot of James interceptions that you saw there. But so JT's playing in an offense that I think will translate fairly well and allow him to translate fairly well. If he's really good this year, and I think George is going to be very good this year, then he has a chance to be one of the.

people we talk about the first round. There's another guy that I think not getting a lot of buzz right now that as the season goes on, because I think NFL coaches will just be all over him. And that's Philiore Kovic at Boston College. He's a, he transferred from Notre Dame. He was their starter last year. If you saw that Clemson game that Trevor was out with COVID and DJ Ily and Gia Olai had to start, which is why everybody was watching that game, Philiorekovic put on a show playing against Clemson's defense. And this is a guy, he's from Pittsburgh. The last guy, from Pittsburgh who was this kind of athlete was Terrell Pryor. Torel Pryor was a huge quarterback prospect, but also a really good basketball player. Philiore Kovic was all state football and

basketball in the WPIAL. And so very good athlete, great arm. The size they love is like 6-4-2-30. And so this is one that if he has a good year, and he's got a really good receiver named Zay Flowers. Jeff Hathley, their coach is, I know we're going to get to coaches who may move to the NFL at some point. Jeff is one of those guys who would be on that list. So there's a lot working in your Kovic's favor. And if he has a big year, I could see NFL teams really loving him. Got that Terrell-Pryor class is like one of the last times that I was paying a lot of attention to high school recruiting classes because I still had guys that I played with in high school that were in those classes. So that was the class with

Terrell Pryor was the number one player. Remember how huge of a prospect of Dayquan was in college in high school. Absolutely. He was a huge deal. He was the number one prospect. And actually kind of kicked off, C.J. Spiller kicked off the renaissance of Clemson recruiting. And Dabo was his lead recruiter as the receivers coach.

But Dacuan was the first time they got the number one guy. And that was a very big deal, him signing with Clemson. And then Julio Jones was in that class. AJ Green was in that class. And the reason I paid so much attention to that class is I was covering Blaine Gabbard. when he went to Mizzou. I was covering that Mizzou team during Blaine Gabbard's first year as a starter

and everyone was so excited that Mizzu got the number one pro-style quarterback prospect in the entire class and then it turned out to be Blaine Gabbard who was fine in college but not really anything special and then still was a rich of the pick. I knew Blaine Gabbert was not going to be a superstar in the NFL probably that night at Thursday night at Mizzou

when it was a Nogne. It's Nebraska. Twisted him into a pretzel. It was raining so hard The power went out in the stadium So there was no volume I was in that press box I was covering that game

And it was this eerie silence Where it was like a throwback Where you're just listening to the crowd And Adama Katsu was the best college football player I ever saw while covering college football that year Yeah I covered the Texas The Nebraska Texas game that year And just could not believe my eyes

And he was number one on my first ever Heisman ballot That was the first year I had a Heism vote and Sue was my number one choice because he was the best player in college football that year. Correct choice. So talking about, you mentioned the guy from Boston College, is he the possible version of that Joe Burrow, Mack Jones, Zach Wilson guy who comes from relative obscurity or from deep in the draft

to potentially be a top five pick? Or do you think that might be someone else? No, I think he could be that guy because he has all the traits that they love. I mean, they absolutely love the size, the athleticism, the arm. So if he puts all that together And then they'll like that he's playing for a coach with an NFL background That's half he was an NFL guy before he got to Ohio State as a DC and before he he became the head coach at Boston College. So they'll like that.

He was in San Francisco, correct? He was a defense back coach. Yep. Yep. So I mean, That's the thing. This is they're going to be there. And there could be a couple more of those.

But I, you know, a lot of the. A lot of the quarterbacks at the premium talent schools are really young this year. So they're not draft eligible. For example, C.J. Strau just won the starting job at Ohio State. He's a redshirt freshman. He's not draft eligible until next year. We have no idea what he was going to be. Max Johnson just won the job at LSU.

He's a sophomore. He's actually a redshirt freshman. So we don't know what he's going to be. Alabama's got Bryce Young. He's a sophomore. Again, don't know. DJ Oweyung-Lay. Not draft eligible.

DJ is going to be a massive draft prospect when he comes. Literally a massive draft prospect. Oh, he's huge. His brother actually may be an even bigger draft prospect. He's like a, he's like a 6-5-260-pound tight end in high school. And he's either going to grow into an incredible offensive tackle, an incredible edge rusher, or be like a jumbo Jimmy Graham. So speaking of incredible offensive tackle prospects.

I'm curious who those non-quarterback guys are in this class. Who are the 2022 versions of guys like Jamar Chase and Penesoul, where we knew a year ago, a year before the draft, that they were going in the top 10, these kind of bulletproof non-quarterback guys coming out. Are there a few of those in this group? The most bulletproof, and I think he's literally bulletproof, is Evan Neal at Alabama.

He's an offensive tackle. He's 6'7. He played at about 360 last year. He hopes to play at about 340. year. If you go on his Twitter, you will see him doing these box jumps. And we, we see the box, like the Miles Garrett box jumps and all that. Okay, this guy will take two boxes, jump from a standing position, and do a split on the boxes. He weighs 350 pounds. Like, he's the best athlete in the draft this year. There's not, there's not even a question about it. He is unbelievable, very freakish.

And he's just, you know, he's a good player. He's moved around a little bit on Alabama's offensive line. But, I mean, he's going to start on an offensive line in the NFL for 10 plus years. And Dane's 2020, Mocky has him going ninth overall to the Panthers. The Panthers will be doing backflips if that happens, I think. Matt Rule, the phone call, recording of Matt Ruhle calling, calling Evan. them, they took them, there will never be a happier person than that rule, if that happens. So the two other guys that I kind of had penciled into my notes here as someone who knows nothing are

Kavon Thibito from Oregon, the edge rusher and Derek Stingley, the cornerback from LSU. I got a little glimpse of Thibito last year when I was watching Elijah Verit Tucker tape because Veritouk played tackle obviously last season, and I believe they played Oregon late in the year. It was one of the only games where he went against premium edge rushing talent. And he's not going to play tackle in the NFL. We know that. The fact that he had a little bit of trouble with Thibodeau isn't the most notable thing in the world. But watching that guy was like, oh, shit.

Yeah, that guy's got some juice to him. Was the number one recruit in the nation for a reason. And he's been as advertised. He's one of a couple freaks on that defense. Noah Sewell, Penny's little brother, is a 260-pound inside linebacker who's incredible. Actually, maybe 265. But yeah, Kvon is one of those that is probably a bulletproof traffic. You're going to get to see him against some really, really good offensive tackles when they play Ohio State in week two.

So they got Thayer Munford and Nicholas Petit Frere, and they're actually moving some guys around at Ohio State because they have a glut of really good potential NFL offensive tackles. And so you will see him play against premium talent in that game. and you will get a really good idea of what K. Van Tibodeau can do. Stingley's an interesting one because there's a lot of really good cornerbacks in the SEC this year. And Stingley is going to have to work hard to be the best corner on his own team. Eli Ricks, who's a sophomore, is really good. So you've got him, and then you've got a couple guys at Mississippi State. Martin Emerson is the younger one who isn't draft eligible yet.

And Emmanuel Forbes is the guy who will be draft eligible. and they're both, they're probably, they'll compete with the two LSU guys to be the best tandem. There's a junior name, Kyrie Elam at Florida, who's also excellent, long, you know, rangy corner. So this, the, the competition to be the number one corner in the SEC, which will probably make you the number one corner in the, in the draft, is going to be ferocious this year. What is Stingley's game like? He is pretty decent size. I want to say he's like 6-1, so he's not a He's got good size, good speed, great ball skills. Had a bad year last year, but everybody on LSU's defense had a bad year last year.

They hired Bo Pellini to be the defensive coordinator, and he came in and, you know, they've been running a three-four, he switches him to a four-three. He basically is running schemes from 10 years ago that cannot deal with offenses now. And so the secondary especially got very out of whack. And so I don't know that any Derek Sting. tape from from 2020 is going to matter very much. I'm really curious to see what he does this year because I think it'll look a lot more like it looked when he was a freshman and playing with 14 draft picks that, you know, we're starting on that team. You know, that was a team that had five

first-round draft picks on it. And I do think Derek will get back to what he was. And, you know, he's big. He's not a risk taker, but he will wind up with his hands on the ball a lot. I mean, that seems like the perfect balance there. Exactly, exactly. Like, he's not going to completely get himself burned, but he'll get his hands on the ball.

So, yeah, I'm very curious to see how much different their defense looks. We'll see him against UCLA, which also has a pretty good quarterback in Dorian Thompson-Robinson. So we'll see them week one and get a little better feel for that. Are there any playmakers just ball with guys with the ball in their hands that you feel like could make a rise over the course of the season? Devante Smith was not the 10th pick in the draft when last year started. I'm not saying who's going to win the Heisman trophy if there's anybody like that.

But is there a pass catcher somewhere that you feel like by the end of the season it just could be a situation where he's undeniable? Like he's a top 10 pick. We should just admit it and move forward. Well, I do wonder with Garrett Wilson, who's probably the most physically talented receiver at Ohio State. They've got a lot of really good receivers. But the little last scene of Olabe, I love just like the little nuance of this day's game. This Olabe is so smooth.

And I just wanted, like, it's sort of like Devante last year. Devante actually led Alabama in receiving when they had a healthy waddle and they had rugs and they had Judy. And nobody noticed. Like, nobody realized, wait, Devante's got better number. than all these guys. And Alave is the kind of guy that he's not as physically impressive as some of those other guys on Ohio State's receiving core. He's just the best at football. And that's got to mean something. That's why I was so happy to see Devante win the Heisman and become a first-round draft pick because given his size, you'd never think he could be a first-round draft pick. But

he's the best at football. So do that. And that's why I like that with Al-Ave, because he's been like that since he got there. I mean, I remember, I believe he was a redshirt freshman against Michigan, just blowing up. And, you know, he's one of those with Meyer when he was coaching there. You had to kind of earn your way out of the special teams. And then you could earn your way into the starting role. And so he got onto the special teams kind of midway through that first year.

And then you realize, okay, this guy can catch the ball too. And he's just gotten better and better and better every year. So I'm excited to see him. I don't know if he's a first round. draft pick, but he will be a very successful NFL play. It's sort of like, this is how I felt about Tyler Lockett and Sterling Shepard, where they don't have the attributes that the NFL teams want in a first rounder. I don't care.

The defenses know they're getting the ball. They get it anyway. They succeed. They're going to be good. After what happened with Terry McLaurin, I'm not inclined to believe Ohio State's deployment of their. receivers. That's one of those things. That guy's a better NFL player than he is a college football player.

I think that's happened a couple different times. Even Michael Thomas was not a superstar at Ohio State. I mean, he was a fine player, but he wasn't one of those guys that it was a no-brainer that he was going to be a top flight receiver coming out of that draft. He was the 47th pick. Mike was not a big-time recruit. Mike was one of those that kind of took a flyer on and realized, okay, we have something special here.

but I think he was they were still developing him. He developed a lot more once he got to the NFL. It feels like speaking of Big Ten teams not getting the most out of their talent. The idea that Quitty Pay just looks like a potential monster for the Colts instantly and have like two sacks last year at Michigan, it seems like that's a consistent problem for them up there. And Nico Collins might start for the Texas. Who is their new defense coordinator? From the Ravens.

Godly, why am I blanking on the name now? I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I've got Joe Cullen on the brain because Mike McDonald. Joe Cullen went from the Ravens to the Jags as the defensive coordinator. Mike McDonald went from the Ravens to Michigan as a defensive coordinator. And it was basically Jim, you know, John saying to Jim, hey, this guy's ready. This guy can do it. And they got very, they got a lot younger on their staff at Michigan, not just on the defensive side of the ball, but overall.

And this is the last ditch effort for Jim Harbaugh because he got his pay cut in half. He basically took a new deal, a rewritten deal, where they can fire him for the same price this year they could have fired him for last year. So if this doesn't work, they will fire him. Interesting. Obviously something to keep an eye on. Speaking of coaches, who are the guys that we're going to be talking about in December and January that could take the jump? Obviously, Lincoln Riley has been a hot name over the last couple years. Matt Campbell from Iowa State is somebody that.

It's gotten interest from a lot of NFL teams. Matt Rule got a job. So did Cliff Kingsbury. Who are the names that we should just have in the back of our minds from when that comes up? Well, we mentioned Jeff Hathley. If he could do well at Boston College, it was a fairly tough place to win, but also a place that has produced NFL coaches before. You know, Tom Coughlin came from there.

Jeff Jagzinski came from there. But I think Halfley's won, but Campbell's more interesting this year because his situation has changed. So Campbell, obviously, talked to the Lions last year, didn't want to do that. Campbell will be supremely sought after at the college level. Let's say if Michigan fires Harbaugh, if some other big job comes open for whatever reason. And Campbell is one of those. He's not going to leave unless he feels like it's a perfect situation. And they have a really good thing going at Iowa State.

He's got them better than they've ever been before. and it was going to take dynamite to get him out of there. It was going to have to be the perfect job. Now I'm not so sure it has to be so perfect because of what happened with conference realignment. Because Texas and Oklahoma are leaving the Big 12 and going to the SEC, we don't know what happens to those other Big 12 schools, but the amount of funding they're going to get because their TV contract without Texas and Oklahoma is not going to look very good.

And so they're going to probably drop in prestige, drop in ability to pay. And all of a sudden, it might not be a place that Matt Campbell wants to be if he can go to an NFL job or if you can go to a premium college football job. So whereas you had to basically lay out the ideal situation for Matt Campbell to get him to even think about it. Now I don't know if you have to be as perfect to get him. Well, it's like 150 grand for an assistant there, 150 grand. for an assistant here. That's the type of stuff where you're not going to be able to do that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Now, they're going to pay a little more for assistance still. No, I mean a difference of 150 grand where like you want to, like, the raises you want to give your guys and being able to retain guys. They're going to be cutting corners in a way that he's probably not going to love. Right. And you have to do that already if you're in the Big 12. If you've got somebody who's got interest from the Big Ten of the SEC, because they can just pay so much.

Yeah, exactly. So I'm curious. I know a little bit. about Matt Campbell. What is the elevator pitch on Matt Campbell? Why is Matt Campbell an NFL caliber head coach potentially? Incredible evaluator who gets the most out of everybody. Which is why I would rather, I think he would be more successful in the NFL than he would

at a job. I don't think he'd ever take a job like Alabama. But he'd be more successful in the NFL than in a national championship type college job where you have to recruit the way Alabama and Georgia and Ohio State recruit. That's a, it's, it's not about, argument. Right. It's not about the collection of talent.

It's about what you do with it. Because the NFL, you all have the same salary cap. You all have the same number of draft picks. You've got to be able to maximize that. You know, it's Urban Myers finding that out now. You know, if you've got a Bosa brother, you can't also get Chase Young. You have to use those resources somewhere else. And that's something Matt Campbell.

has had to live with his entire career. I mean, he's a Mountain Union guy. He started out working a Mountain Union. So he understands how you work with limited resources and how you work with guys who aren't off the charts great first round talents all the time and develop them into what you need and finding the best place for him.

So yeah, very similar to Matt Ruhlin that way. What about Lincoln Riley? Do you think there's any chance that somebody can just give him a Godfather offer and we see him in the NFL at some point soon. Lincoln's got such a good job. Oklahoma is such a good place to work. They're going to the SEC.

He's got a boss he loves in Joe Kisdicklione, the athletic director there. I would, you'd have to, you'd have to really want to go, and it would have to be the perfect situation. You know, maybe the Cowboys, I don't know. It would just have to be absolutely. I would believe if I was Lincoln Riley.

unless I thought the roster was Super Bowl caliber. I wouldn't even think about it if I was Lincoln. That's the one job that I think I would just keep in the back of my mind. If that team goes 7 and 9 this year and they move on from Mike McCarthy, and you're looking at an offense that has C.D. Lamb, Whithy's familiar, Dak Prescott, Amari Cooper, still a defensive line. Michael Parsons has a big year. Trayvon Diggs takes a step.

You can talk yourself into what they're building on defense. They offer him $10 million a year. Is your team mascot? That kid's awesome. That's my favorite part of Hard Knocks this year. The coolest kid I've ever seen in my entire life. That kid's got to figure it out. That's the one thing that I would keep in the back of my mind just because, I don't know.

There's just something about that job. And it's not even just the allure and the prestige and whatever of the job. They have a top five quarterback potentially. Like those types of jobs just don't become available that often. So I don't know much about Lincoln Riley, but if I was a college coach that needed the perfect situation, that seems like a confluence of factors that would be hard to replicate in most other spots. Well, the pride of mule shoe Texas probably means a lot if you're the Cowboys coach. But I still, because you can be the Oklahoma coach for the next 30 years. If you leave, you can't be the Oklahoma coach again probably because the next guy is going to be successful.

So you have to decide if that's what you want. So let's take the NFL part out of this for a quick second. If I'm just looking to have a good time on a Saturday, and I want to just watch a team that's going to knock my socks off, who is the most exciting entertaining, the couple most exciting entertaining teams in college football that are just going to be worth the price of admission every week. The Ole Miss Rebels, especially their defense is just as bad.

God, they're going to. making it happen, man. Yeah. They're going to score a ton of points. They're going to give up a ton of points. It's going to be glorious. That's a fun one. Indiana is fun to watch.

Not necessarily because of anything they do schematically, but Tom Allen's just a fun coach to watch. His players love them. They play hard. I really enjoy watching them play. North Carolina is fun. That offense that Phil Longo runs, like Phil Longo is one of those coaches that I love because if he has a

play that works, he'll run it till you stop it. And sometimes you don't stop it. So against Virginia Tech last year, they were just running this outside zone and couldn't stop it. So they average nine yards of carry. And then they go to Miami. Same deal. Miami just couldn't stop one particular play. And they average 10 yards of carry. It was, it was insane. So, but what they'll do is they'll do that. And then once they've got you completely demoralized, that's when they go over the top. I love those guys that just don't get bored. It's like, well, I'm just going to do what works. I just don't care at this point.

I love that you said Indiana because one of my best, best friends played football at Indiana. And the fact that Indiana is good now, he's just clinging on to it with all that he has. Nine Indiana, it's going to happen. It's going to be a thing. Last one that I have for you, and this is a little bit of a nod of your question. If you don't have an answer off the cuff, that's totally fine. But I'm curious if there are some positional trends that you might see. coming this fall that make us rethink about just the way we think about certain spots in the NFL.

Some examples I think over the last couple years. To me, the 2020 wide receiver class made me take a step back and wonder, where is this position going? Is this going to be the norm from now on? Are we going to have the best receiver class every single year? I think 2021 made me think about the different body types we may see at that position. The last couple of years have, I think, sent a lot of people back to their preconceived notions about what quarterback should look like and play like.

So do you think that there are one or two of those positional trends you see on the horizon that are worth paying attention to? Tight end because everybody in the NFL wants a George Kittle. You saw how sought after Kyle Pitts was. And I'm curious about how many more of those body types are playing football at the high school level now because of how basketball has changed. because before, if you projected to be a 6'7, 260-pound guy, you could play the four. You were going to get a scholarship to play the four at a Division I school.

And maybe you made it to the NBA or maybe you played in Europe for a little while, but that was a great option. That person does not exist in professional basketball anymore. They don't. If you play the four, you better be able to make threes. You better be able to handle. the big guys are of no use to them. Yeah.

So what do you do? What do you do if you're that guy? Go play football. Because if you're that athletic and you're tall and you're fairly well built, maybe you're an edge rusher, but maybe you're a tight end. You know, that's the tight end allows you to do the most things with your offense. It allows you to disguise the most things. It allows you to be more versatile.

It creates the most mismatches. like Texas A&M will be interesting this year because they've got Jalen Widermeyer who's really good. They've got another guy named Baylor Cup who has been there for two years. He's had seasoning injuries in preseason camp both years. But he was the bigger prospect coming out of high school. Weidemeyer's a first round prospect. If Cup is any good, some of the too tight stuff they could do will be awesome. And so I am curious, are we about to see a bunch more versatile tight ends coming

into the game because there's no place for them in basketball anymore. Let's keep it on the schematic side here very quickly. Is there an offense or defense at the college level that you think is worth watching because they're the next unit that NFL teams are going to try to steal from, whether it's a specific kind of play, an overall philosophy, just a group that you think NFL fans might learn something watching this year? John Haycock's Iowa State defense is one because they had to come in and figure out how to deal with all those wide open flinging around offenses. That's been one of them for a couple

years, right? Just like the way that they play that three-man front. The thing is, he took a lot from the NFL to do that. And then everybody's kind of stolen from him in college. But I'm curious to see what they do because now they're going to get Steve Sarkesian in the league. He's going to bring a little bit different flavor at Texas. And so they've got to figure out how to deal with that. They still have to deal with what Chris Kleinman runs at Kansas State. So they have to be, it's interesting because the Big 12 used to be a fairly homogenous league offensively. Now it's very diverse.

And if you can play good defense in the Big 12, then you're doing all right. Alice Grinchin's another one at Oklahoma. He's turned them from a terrible defense into a very good defense. But that's more of a talent upgrade situation than anything's schematic. And what they're

doing, they're doing a lot of, you know, have enough depth on the defensive line that you're just rolling in fresh guys all the time. That's not as much of an issue in the NFL because the referee can the referee can control the tempo of the game like you can't you can't run a blur offense in the NFL so you don't have to worry about being that deep on the D line you know if you've got too good starters you're good how about anybody on offense that you think I should just watch if I'm looking to pick up a little things here and there well the one I want to see is a is a guy who is a new college coach and he's in a very small college

Kevin Kelly, the Arkansas high school coach who doesn't punt, is now a college coach. He's at Presbyterian College in Clinton, South Carolina. And so I want to see, does he have to punt more? What does he do? How does he change it? Because he got me on this thing last year where he said, run the numbers. See if you're more successful running or throwing on first down. You'll find that you should hardly ever run.

And I was like, okay, you know, that probably depends on. the situation. God, analytics Twitter is just a buzz right now. You're talking their language. Yeah, you should throw. And I remember talking to Phil Longo at North Carolina about that. He's like, I get that. And, you know, their number, like, they were averaging like 13 yards a play when they

threw on first down last year. But they also averaged like seven yards to play when they ran on first down. So that's pretty good too. And he's like, yeah, but you just, you can still just take what the defense gives you. But you just need to have a better feel for. it. Like, I was going crazy the other night watching the Jags. And Steve Levy's saying, well, they want to be less vanilla. And they ran inside zone on first down and outside zone on second down of their first series. And the two times they

tried to run on first down when Trevor Lawrence was in the game, they punted three plays later. Every other time they tried to throw on first down, they moved the ball down the field. It was ugly. It moved in fits and starts, but it moved. And so, yeah, I just, the established the run thing, I don't know how it's not dead yet, but it really needs to die. Well, it's funny because talking to a lot of offensive coaches over the last month or so as I've gone to camps and about what they would have to do against what I would consider kind of the phangio, I can always mixing up the names every time I say it, the Fangio Staley world that is kind of, coming to the NFL. One of the very common answers has been, you need to run the ball better.

So all of this stuff comes back around. And if you look at the teams that have had success, they do run the ball well against it because they're allowing you to run the ball. But you also, listen, what's a good average yards per attempt in passing? Yeah, I mean, I think that. Eight? Yes. It's eight in college.

I don't know if it's, yeah. Eight is a very good. Eight can, like, win you the MVP in the end. NFL. 5.9 is a bad one, right? Yeah, that's bad. 5.9 yards per carry is a really good rushing average. Yeah, I would like to look deeper into those numbers. Are not 5.9 yards, 5.9 yards? I would like to look a little bit deeper into that. I don't think it's that simple. Well, I have a story that does, that does look much deeper into it than just that. But yes, it is, it's one of those things that you do have to,

you do have to do both. You can't be one dimension. but you need to be flexible. And that's what, so I'll give you an example of a college coach who was very flexible the past couple of years and we'll see if he just kind of goes back to what he's comfortable with or how he works with it. Dan Mullen at Florida was very much a run first coach. It was like a 58% 60% run coach for most of his career. He has Kyle Trask, he has Kyle Pitz, he has Cadarius Tony, and suddenly he's a 60%

pass coach. And he's like, look, this is better for us. This works better. Now he goes to Emory Jones, who's their new quarterback, who's a great runner. And I bet they're back to 60% run. Just do what your players do well. Like, we were talking about with Matt Campbell. Like, he's great at doing what his players do well.

So that's not that different in the NFL. Yeah, I think it's just about not trying to fight what's working and just not trying to fight uphill. I mean, dig down. Just doing what's working, doing what. your players do well doing what the defense is giving you. It's simple to say it, but I think that's a huge part of it. All right, buddy, that's all we got. I want you to tell the people what the college football podcasting situation is going to look like at the athletic this fall because we're tweaking some stuff.

And it's like pretty damn exciting. That's what I'll say. Oh, there's so much stuff. And you can just subscribe to my feed, the Andy Staples Show and Friends feed, and get almost everything. So I've got three shows a week that are, they're the, Andy Staples show. We've got, you know, game recaps. We've got crazy bets on Friday where I may have to eat a banana peel and all if LSU doesn't beat UCLA by 15. If you haven't seen Will Levis, the new Kentucky quarterback, eating a banana, including the peel. Go look that up on Twitter.

Either me or Ari Wasserman's going to have to do that after the LSU UCLA game. So we do those on Fridays. We have interviews with players, coaches, all the big names in the sport. Nicole Auerbach, Raining national sports right of the year has power hour on Tuesdays. Me and David Ubin are doing football and grits, our SEC show on Mondays. One True Pod, our Big 12 show is on Thursdays. And then the bonus is Stars Matter, which is Ari Wasserman talking recruiting, which is, you know, it's draft Knicks for college football, basically. Yeah.

I'm very excited about David Ubbin being back on the national scene as somebody who's been friends with David Oben for the last 15 years. David's well-deserved. writers we have one of the best we have and I'm so excited that his whole the whole country is his canvas now I want I love it so much I'm very glad that we're back to that I'm very glad they're letting you guys have the space to play around with all of this if you guys have not subscribed to the Andy Staples and Friends feed please do it you will be getting a ton of insight that will help you like we're trying to do here get a better more well-rounded knowledge of the NFL I'm sure you guys will enjoy it Andy thank you very much for the time my friend always good to chat with you I am sure we will do this again fairly soon Thank you, Robert. All right, guys, it's time now for our conversation with our Giants writer, Dan Duggan. I caught up with him at the Giants Browns joint practices last Friday. Really enjoyed talking to Dan. The Giants are in a fascinating spot.

I mean, this is a team that needs to get the most out of their quarterback. They spent a ton on resources to help out that quarterback this spring. Nate and I obviously got into how excited we are about the Giants defense on our defenses show earlier this week. So please enjoy our chat with Dan. All right, it's time now for our conversation with Giants writer at the athletic. Dan, how are you? I'm doing great and lovely Barreya, Ohio. Good to see you.

This was great because I get to visit with you and watch the Giants practice without having to go all the way to New Jersey, which worked out extremely well. I think that's a big part of their plans was to fit you in their schedule. I really appreciate Joe Judge taking me into account when he's building this preseason stuff. So obviously, this is a team that we've talked about a decent amount on this show because we love the defense. And we'll get to that in a second. But obviously all of the conversations and the focus and where everything starts with this team is what happens with Daniel Jones. So how would you, as somebody who's close to it, articulate the plan they had this spring and how it's supposed to play into the overall progress of their quarterback?

I think in simplest terms was just give them more to work with. Because, I mean, you looked at who they had personnel-wise, especially when Seekwon goes down. Sterling Shepard missed a chunk of games running the season. I mean, it was really scraping the bottom of barrel. I'm a big Darius Slayton guy, so I feel bad that he's been pushed to the side here. I mean, listen, Darius Slayton was the best of the best. I mean, you're talking about, you know, Damian Rattley's and C.J. boards as you're like two and three receivers. And Devante Freeman and Alfred Mars, they were, you know, bringing guys out and having to blow the dust off him.

So it was rough. And the Office of Line wasn't very good. Now, the Office of Lion is a whole other topic. Oh, we'll get to that. Oh, we'll get to that. I'll save that. But so if you're talking about what they did directly to help him, they spent a boatload of money on Kenny Galday, who was the best wide receiver available.

And then they used their first round pick, which you could say was almost a luxury pick on Cadarious Tony, who we can maybe get to him too because he's kind of had a wild offseason. But in an ideal world, he's just this funky gadget-type play that they didn't have really a dynamic guy that if everything goes according to plan, he can add an element that they didn't have. They need to make big plays. They didn't make big plays last year.

You know, they brought Jason Garrett back. It was really no internal discussion from what I gather of replacing him. I think there was a lot of external hopes, what was to say, from Giants fans. but I think there's a big feeling that the second year in this system, that'll be a beneficial thing for Jones. And also, I think this is me definitely kind of speculating. I don't think they're looking at like Daniel Jones to have a Josh Allen type year three.

I think, you know, Joe Joe comes to New England where, like, if you remember, like the early days of Tom Brady, he wasn't throwing for 50 touchdown. Totally. I think they look in him more as that version of, I'm not going to say Tom Brady. You know what I mean? Like a young quarterback, he doesn't need to win us games. He needs to not lose us games and we'll surround him with good talent. And he's a smart enough guy that he can man.

and we can win games, you know, 20 to 19, which isn't the way a lot of teams are trying to win these days. Yeah, but it's, you just, I think that's exactly right. The downside just can't be as low as has been over the last couple years. The turnovers have to improve. And that's something where you wonder, is that just part of his DNA? With some guys, you wait for it and you wait for it and you wait for it, and it just doesn't happen. So what has camp looked like so far? I, I don't, admittedly, have not read a lot or thought a lot about this team because I wasn't going there. But I'm so I'm curious, what you've seen and what the conversation has been like from those guys in the building about where he's gone and the progress he's made in that area.

I mean, no offense taken. You haven't read a lot. But I haven't read anything of anything in the last three weeks. I spent eight hours a day in the car. No, it's all good. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I get asked literally every interview I do is like, how does he look? He, to me, in a way, looks the same as he did from his first rookie minicamp practice.

He's always looked apart. You know, he's not like he's some physical specimen. He's a top ten pick. He'd hope so. I mean, he looks like a professional quarterback. He's never had, you know, stretches in practice where he's just throwing the ball over the place and looks terrible. He's also never stretches where he looks like Patrick Mahomes. He just looks like kind of a middle of the road NFL quarterback. And he said stretches,

especially in his rookie year, where he looked like he had a higher ceiling than that. He said stretches where he's looked obviously lower than that. They're trying to just kind of find the middle ground there somewhere. But this camp, I wouldn't say he looks appreciably different. What have they said? Just in terms of what they want to see from him and if they've seen it, I always think the dialogue around him is almost as important as what he looks like on the field. Well, the thing they say, and this is we have to try and cut through when you're trying to write about him analyze him, it's always intangibles. Like, this guy, like, you know, he, John Marrow would let him, you know, date his daughter.

I mean, they love every single thing about this kid. Except the way he plays quarterback. That's the thing. I mean, they don't fill in the blank like that. But no, I mean, he checks every single box. First guy and last guy, all those cliches, works so diligently. He cares. Teammates love him, respect them.

I think he's a little more edge than you might think from this, you know, Duke quarterback. Like, every single thing you would want to a quarterback he has. But, yeah, between the white lines, it's been, it's been up and down. I mean, again, we talked on the first question. here. He didn't have a lot to work with last year, so maybe it gets a little unfairly. Obviously, that's how it works. It's going to get put on the quarterback's feet. But no, they think he does have the talent. So like, you know, where's it saying, well, yeah, intangibles are great.

When you see the tangible and we haven't, they firmly believe that it'll surface this year and he's going to be their guy to, you know, be the next Eli Manning for 15 years. So obviously they go out and get multiple past catchers is a way to solve that problem. And you describe Cadarius Tony as a luxury pick. Is this team in a position to take luxury picks in the first? first round considering the state of their offensive line. That's my main question. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was an interesting draft night for a lot of reasons. I mean, Dave Gettleman had never traded back and eight previous drafts of the GM. So, you know, I'd like to thank him for doing it

this time, personally. He threw a change up there. But so that was, you know, Cadarious Tony wasn't on their board at 11. I think they really thought either one of the Alabama receivers would be there, whether it be Waddle or Smith or I think J.C. Horn or Patrick Sertainer were kind of a backup plan or maybe even plan 1A. I mean, they really value this team with Patrick Sturte. Tantic. Corner, my mind is slowly exploding. Right, and that's what we were talking about before we started this. I mean, how Patrick Graham really values cover corner.

So I think when I put that out there for a draft, which was not a take by me. It was in a form take. People were like, wow, I would ever take a cornerback. But, you know, so anyways, those guys were all gone. They did not foresee that happening. They thought four, maybe five quarterbacks going to the top 10. So no matter what, a stud is falling to it. Yeah.

And just the way the draft broke, it wasn't lining up like that. So now you're at 11. You have this offer from the Bears. there was nobody that they weren't going to take an offense alignment. They weren't going to take Slater. They weren't going to take any of these offensive alignment that were available in that range. So I think they just said, well, it's great value. You get a first round pick next year from the Bears.

Who knows how the Bears are going to be this year. So having two first round picks next year is valuable regardless. And maybe the Bears struggle a bit. We don't know. They absolutely could. And so you get back to 20. And then I think even at 20. I thought they were going to go like a quitty pay.

Like an edge rush kind of guy was really no red flags, no question marks, maybe not the highest ceiling. So Tony was definitely a bit of a wild card pick. He could also, you know, those other receivers, whether it be Bateman or Elijah Moore. So Tony was not on my radar. He might have been on my radar at 37. I did not think when they trade back to 20 that that was who they were going to go for. What was the sense you had about their feelings about the tackles?

Because they didn't like Slater or Derisal or the options available there, or did they just feel good about the group that they have right now? So it's a combination. Like I know this. If Sewell somehow fell to 11, they would have taken him. No questions asked. So it's not like they were not taking a tackle under any circumstances. but I think when you got down past him,

I think they felt there was a drop-off, and they really like Andrew Thomas, obviously number four pick last year. They're going to give him plenty of runway to turn things around. And then they really like Matt Parrott, who they took in the third round last year, who was a developmental guy.

So as Gettleman said, you got to let the kids play. You can't say, oh, he's a developmental guy and then not let him develop. Sure. So I think maybe they looked at him versus Slater or some of the other options there and just said, is the difference that great,

where we have this kid, we like this, can we want to let him play. and then so I mean again luxury pick that's my word i mean Tony they definitely feel like has a big potential role and can be kind of a game-changing type talent whereas taking a tackle maybe it makes them marginally better i don't think they thought the difference was so significant that that was a priority well right you can't rotate in your tackles it's not as if you can sprinkle well judge does but that's not ideal that's all you want to do so it's not you can't sprinkle in a tackle with a receiver it can be a part of an overall plan in a way that a tackle can so if you like your

guy that you picked in the third round last year, you think he can functionally work for you, the receiver adds an element to your offense that a tackle can. I understand that line of thinking, even if I don't totally agree with it. No, it's a very, it's a very hot topic for a debate. I mean, because then even Slater, you know, there's talk. Or do you play guard? I just think they weren't going to take a guy at 11 and play him, you know, sort of out of position, you know, so, I mean, they were kind of in a position where there just wasn't a great, you know, value meeting need and everything at 11. So obviously you trade back and, you know, Slater's gone by that point. So they went with Tony. In terms of Perts development, what have they said? If he's a

developmental prospect, what sort of gains has he made from last year that they're excited about? I think, I thought he was going to be basically a red shirt last year. And there was a game where Andrew Thomas and he was late for a team meeting the night before and against Washington early in the season. He played, he started at left tackle and played a decent amount in that game and looked pretty good. The worst game to play. Yeah. And he held up well. And then they rotated him a bit of right tackle with Cam Fleming. And then he got COVID. midway through the year and then he had an ankle late in the year.

So his end of the year was not good. There was obviously mitigating factors. But he's a guy who, I mean, you look at him. He looks like a prototypical NFL tackle. It's kind of funny. Rob Sale, their new all-line coach was saying. He was watching film from last year. And he thought Parrott was Thomas.

So you could take that as a good thing or a bad thing. But he's looking at film and thinking this guy who was a developmental third-round pick was the number four. Yeah. So that's how good he looks physically. You know, he was, he started the camp on the pup list. but he's been in there and he's looked you know he's looked good it's always it's always hard obviously to evaluate old line play and practice of course yeah yeah but they feel good about him and they also

have nate soldered there as sort of a swing tackle sort of insurance policy in case pair isn't you know kind of ready for the big role obligatory saiquant question timeline expectations where are we out with that so that's that's the other kind of looming question over everything uh i mean he's making progress and he's probably i would say he's on track for week one like i don't know i mean I'm not a doctor. I don't know, like, how much more he can get. You know, he's out there. He's running.

He's cutting. They haven't really cut him loose in any sort of team drills. Judge interestingly said, if they weren't doing joint practice this week, he might have done more, but, you know, you can't necessarily trust Cleveland's players to treat him with kid gloves. I totally understand it. Yeah. Like, like, Martinez is going to know, like, I'm not going to take a shot here or, you know,

do anything to put him in jeopardy. But I think that as a good sign that at least they're not seeing any sort of setbacks or anything that, you know, doesn't indicate him being on track. I mean, as we sit here, I think we still got another three or four weeks probably to the opener. Again, I'm not a doctor. I have a hard time seeing what he's doing now, him somehow not being ready, unless they're just going to be so cautious that they, you know, I don't know what the logic would be.

If he's able to do everything he on the field, I don't, what's two extra weeks or something like that holding him out for? So I think he'll be ready. That's my very unprofessional medical opinion. But from what I've seen, there's no reason I think he won't be, I guess. Let's get to the defense because they spent a decent amount of resources on that side as well. I mean, this team pushed their chips in this offseason. There's no deny that.

They really threw it around. I mean, they signed deals. That of Dory Jackson deal and the Gallaudet deal, those are the deals you'd sign if the cap wasn't down to $185 million. And I think that says a lot about their expectations. And on defense now, you have that second corner that you don't have to hide anymore. Their flexibility with Peppers, with McKinney, with Logan Ryan, it's a modern secondary, and I think it's a defensive coordinator that knows how to use a modern secondary.

What do you think will look different about this defense than what we might have seen last year in year one of Patrick Graham running that unit. Yeah, I mean, the significant, obvious difference is really the opposing offenses game plan a lot of times was just throw at whoever was opposite James Bradbury. Isaac out of him or whoever. He's going to be a trivia question, guys. I don't remember these names in three years, let alone the average fan. I mean, it was a real Ryan Lewis.

It was a real revolving door of very fringe NFL players. And they still had a really good defense. And because Bradbury's lights out, you mentioned the safeties, there's got some talent there. But now you bring in a Dory Jackson who certainly didn't live. live up to the first round billing in Tennessee. Sort of had a weird exit there where he was hurt all last year. And then, you know, they cut him when, you know, they have the fifth year option. But the Giants, you know, showed no hesitation.

Because, again, we were talking about who they were going to target in the draft. I mentioned those corners. That was also the plan probably before they realized a guy like Jackson would even be available. Yep. Because they didn't, they didn't target any of the other top line corners. You know, Griffin who signed with Jacksonville. Blanking on the guy signed on Washington to a good deal. William Jackson.

Yeah, exactly. So they didn't target those two guys. So they weren't like, we have to go spend money on a number one, our number two corner. But then when the Dory Jackson became available, they just probably obviously felt like we have a really high, you know, review on this guy from back in the draft and our pro personnel.

They felt like he was worth it because, I mean, they gave him a pretty substantial deal, you know, 39 million over three years. They think that elevates their defense significantly. I mean, they can play a lot more man this year than they did last year. They basically have to hide their number two corner, which is a very high thing to do. And they did an effective job of doing it.

Yeah. It was an impressive job. We've talked about it on this show. We just talked about before we started recording. That flexibility to say, this is what I've done forever. This is in my DNA to play all this man coverage and to attack you on defense. I don't have the guys to do that.

I'm not going to do that. That's what good coaches do. Yeah. No, I mean, Pat Graham, I mean, he definitely had a hell of a season because, yeah, I mean, he comes from that New England tree where it's a ton of man.

When he was the one year, he's in Miami as the defense corner, they played a ton of man. And yeah, he comes up here and in camp they were playing man. The first week they played man, maybe the second week, and then they just really step back.

This isn't going to work. Yeah. We just do not have the personnel to do it. Now they do. we're going to just play, you know, oh, man, now it's like, well, we have that in our bag. They have a lot more options. They're very game-plan-centric here anyways, but now they know that, like, these guys can play all the kind of funky zone coverage they were thrown out last year, but also now we have

two corners we feel like can match up with any wide receiver, you know, tandem in the league. And if that's how we want to play a game, we can do that too. So, I mean, it just gives them even more flexibility. And Graham is a pretty flexible play caller, you know, as it stands. What's the vibe been around Xavier McKinney? Because he's somebody we brought up a couple weeks ago to a guy that really could break out. this year. He just fits so well with where the league is going and how flexible he is. What's the conversation been around him through the first few weeks?

Yeah, no, I think breakout is certainly a valid term to put on him. It's going to be funny, though, because he's not going to be a starter, at least in the base defense. Interesting. So what does the base secondary look like? So obviously, Jackson and Bradbury the corners and then Peppers and Logan Ryan. I forgot about Peppers. Yes, yes. Okay. But as we know. But Logan Ryan slides down to the nickel and then McKinney comes in, right? Or you can flip those two. Yeah, exactly. I think maybe a little more McKinney. in that role. But as we know, they're going to spend 75% of their snaps and sub packages anyway.

So the base is kind of antiquated. But I'm just saying. I forgot about Peppers. That's how deepest team is. Yeah. It's a very versatile secondary too. They got guys who have different strengths, different roles. They have guys like Logan Ryan and Julian Love who can play safety and corner and the slot. And Peppers is basically going to be like a pseudo linebacker a lot of times. He'll be down in the box. So I think you'll see a ton of three safety packages with Peppers, Ryan, and McKinney. And I think McKinney has a chance to have a big role. he's definitely very active out here. He basically missed three quarters of his rookie season

and still came back and had a big interception in the finale. Still made an impact, which he had a huge amount of ground to make up. And he did. So definitely a lot of excitement for what he can bring. On the edge, it feels like that was the one spot coming into the draft coming to the off season. Because you lose to Alvin Tomlinson, and that may not seem like it makes you bigger on the edge. Now maybe Leonard Williams needs to play inside a little bit more.

It's all these moving pieces. What has the plan looked like at those edge spots early in camp with Ojolari and everything else in the solutions they have. Yeah, no, I mean, edge was definitely, you know, probably the big, by far the biggest question mark on the defense. We kind of touched on there, some maybe bigger ones on the offense. But that is definitely the spot that gives you a little concern.

They actually really went after Leonard Floyd. He was the one edge rusher they pursued. He went back to the Rams. It would have been so perfect. He fits what they do. Because they run a lot of those tight fronts that the Rams were doing. So you have those three interior guys crammed in. Then you have that one edge guy that you're asking to do a lot of different things.

It's literally the role that Leonard Floyd plays through the ramp. So you could see it. So you can see that they obviously have a very targeted plan. And not just chasing whatever like the biggest guy is. Like they wanted Leonard Floyd. They didn't get him. They didn't go just give a bowl of money to the next best edge rusher. Like, okay, we don't have, that guy doesn't exist.

So we're going to just. They just went for the next Georgia guy. Yeah. And they diverted those funds to, you know, Adory Jackson and Kenny Goliday. But so yeah, the edge is definitely a question mark. You know, you mentioned the next Georgia guy, Aziz Ojolari. He was a guy at one point.

I thought was in the mix for them at 11. Yeah. And then the injury stuff cropped up where, you know, there was some reports on his knee leading up to the draft, certainly scared some teams away. Then I definitely thought they were going to take him when they were picking early in the second round. They traded back and they still were able to get him. I think it was 52 if I remember off the top of the head.

Maybe it was 50 even. But being able to get him at that point was great value. I mean, as long as his knee doesn't fall off for the next four years, I mean, it's great value. He's a super productive guy in the SEC got a lot of potential. Is he playing a lot? Yeah, he's going to start. He's going to start.

And really the best thing for him in a way is Lorenzo Carter and Ocean Ziminez, the guys who have a little bit more experience, both were out of camp most of the first two to three weeks with, you know, kind of minor injuries. Works out well. Yeah, so he got a ton of reps, and I think it's a situation where, okay, we've seen enough, like he can hang there. I think Carter will be the other edge guy. And then guys like Zimenez, you know, Ryan Anderson.

I mean, there's not a, it's not a great group. But if Ojo Lari is solid, Carter is a guy who's always kind of tantalized the potential, got to hurt last year, right when he's really starting to, you know, fit into this Pac-Gram system. I think he's a guy who maybe could exceed expectations. because I think he does kind of fit what they want. Ziminez is sort of just a guy with some pass rush. But for them, they were like 12th in Sacks last year with no edge rushers last year either.

They get really creative. And I can see them doing that again, where you have those three guys crammed in. You play with one edge. Leonard Williams is that hybrid player. I'm really curious to see what the front looks like and how they deploy those guys. Last thing I'll ask you, Joe Judge up close because we see things from the outside. And there's a certain discourse about him, whether it's the discipline and everything that happens with that. Do you think guys mind it?

Do you think it's a little bit different when you're watching it every single day than the way that we characterize it from afar? Yeah, I mean, 100%. He's kind of become this national punchline caricature of like this hard-ass coach. I mean, listen, he works guys hard and he makes no apologies for it. But I think it's sort of a lazy take that like all Belichick assistants are the same. Like, sure, they came up the same way, but they all have different personalities. Like, he's not Matt Patricia. Yes.

He has his own thing. He also, he comes from many places. Like, he was in Alabama first. Like, it just, yeah, I totally agree. But I will say the thing. thing that he seems to have, again, I don't really know Matt Patricia personally, or Josh McDaniels, or Eric Mugini, I think the thing that judge does well, so I'm not saying he necessarily does it better or worse than those guys, he communicates

really, really well. You mean, you watch a press conference from him. There's no similarities between him Bill Belichick. He's talking at press conference. I know that's stuff we care about more than, you know, the average fan, but I think it also just speaks to how he communicates because you hear his players say that all the time too. And he's big on telling not just like do this, but the why. So they understand when the Browns are done practice yesterday and the Giants are still running sprints, you know, players might look over and say, why do we have to do this? He explains, you know, it's all about conditioning in fourth quarter.

And listen, every coach might give that message. They seem to buy it. So, you know, listen, they won six games last year. If they win four or five, six games, something like that again this year, the message might be a little harder for it to still get through. I mean, he's definitely towing a line there. But I think he has, you know, kind of universal buying. You really don't hear any other than Kelvin Benjamin.

You don't hear too much griping about his coaching style. No, I mean, listen, I've been around for Ben McAdoo, Pat Shermer, and Joe Judge. I mean, the other two guys aren't in his class as far as just kind of having a vision for a program communicating. Again, we'll see if it works on Sundays. I'm kind of bullish on him. I think he really gets it. I think he is going to be really good coach. I understand the reaction of some of the stuff he does, but I think when you're around it every day,

you see that there's a lot of rhyme to the reason and you hear his players so frequently, like regurgitate his message. Like, they're getting it. Like, it's getting through to them. That's all that matters. If those 53 guys believe in what he's selling, that's really all the matters. Awesome. And as the truck rolls by, it's a sign that we should wrap up. Dan Duggan, thank you very much. I'm very glad we got to do this, even if it was not part of the original plans.

And we ran into each other here in Beret. So thanks for the time, bud. Excellent. Thanks a lot. All right, guys, time for our conversation with our Vikings writer at the athletic Chad. Graf really enjoyed digging into some of the complications with this team, where they're headed. Are they stuck in a rut? I mean, a very similar conversations we've had about the Vikings over the last couple of years, but a lot to chew on.

So let's get to our chat with Chad. All right. It is time now for our last team writer visit. 17 teams. I think we had 14 writers, 18 teams, 15 writers. UChadgraph are the last one. Congratulations. Number 15, it's an honor to be with you.

What an exciting day here in Minnesota. It is August 24th. This is my last stop. We're in a side room where they record NFL network segments in the Vikings absolutely absurd facility. Every single time I'm here, I forget how palatial and ridiculous it is. It started to feel like a college campus.

Like when you go to Clemson or something, you're walking around? It's insane. They're building more stuff out near the road. I just, I don't even know what else they could possibly need here. But coming from Winter Park, where your buddy Nate knows well,

the facilities there, shall we say, perhaps not up to the same standard as this. No pirate ship here, though. There's no, there's no Viking ship here. There's no old. rotting wooden Viking ship outside the facility like there was there. It's a shame. They've turned that into a gym now and the ship still is outside.

So the people showing up for their workouts at 5.30 p.m. walk right by the ship still. Did you cover the team when you guys had to work like across the street in a bank building? Yes, I did. A little closet in the bank building. It was quite different than this. It's very nice here. They have invested a lot in this team and in more ways than one. You know, this is.

in a lot of ways, still the same core, the same expensive, now aging core that we've gotten used to in Minnesota over the last few years. Earlier this summer, our buddy Matt Collar was on the show talking about expectations for this team and how we're kind of on the same merry-go-round we're used to, and that's what it feels like.

There are some changes here, right? Clint Kubiak takes over as the offensive coordinator. We have some pieces flipped out. But for the most part, the core, of this thing has remained the same. And now I think the question is what about this year is going to be different. Is that a fair characterization? Yes. And so I think the Vikings are surprisingly quietly a fascinating team because I totally agree. They've been on this merry go round of sort of limited success, fighting for a wild card spot. Maybe if everything goes well like it did in New

Orleans a couple of years ago, you get a playoff win. But the ceiling never felt like a Super Bowl. The floor never really felt like you were going to be out of it. I do think that despite all of that, despite being on that same train, I think this year could be different. I think the ceiling is higher and I think the floor is lower. I think that's because of the way the roster is built, because of, you know, how top heavy this team is where, you know, injuries can completely derail things. But also the defense, you know, Shield Capedia from the athletic thinks that they're going to be

the number one defense in the NFL. I saw that. Me and Schiller disagree about that. That seems a little bit optimistic, but let's build that case, okay? You get DeNeil Hunter back. That's the start of this, right? Like a true full-blown superstar that you now have the edge that you didn't last year. Still questions about the other Etter-Rotter spot, but we'll save that for later.

You go get Dalvin Tomlinson and Michael Pierce is back, so you have two very stout presences in the middle of your defense. You'd hope that by bringing in Breeland and Patrick Peterson and, and McKenzie Alexander's back. You've an entirely new group of corners. You can stop the bleeding there a little bit. You still have Harrison Smith. The linebackers are still guys that we know about.

To me, it just feels like, for the most part, it's the same defense that was the best defense in the league five years ago, but it was five years ago. And everyone's just a little bit older, and it's just hard for me to get excited about that ceiling because I just don't know why it's going to be as good as it was when these guys were in their late 20s instead of their early 30s. All right, let me make Shields case for you

and try to sell you on the Vikings being a top three defense. All right, I'm ready for it. You got to start with the head coach, Mike Zimmer, one of the best defensive minds in the NFL. The Vikings had no talent last year at the end of last year. Their defense was horrendous. And yet their third down defense was, I think, like, number nine in the league. They had nobody.

There was nobody on that team. The corners were terrible. You make us very solid point. The defensive line was awful. The linebackers, Anthony Barr, and Eric Kendricks were hurt, and they were still a good third down defense. So you start with that. You start with Mike Zimmer and his prowess there and his scheming ability.

The defensive line has a chance to be really, really good. Michael Pierce and Dalvin Tomlinson, collectively in the middle of that defensive line, weigh close to 700 pounds. And I know you haven't gotten a full facility tour. If you see the buffet up there by week one, they may weigh 700 pounds. You are going to have a hard time running on this team with Eric Kendricks behind them, who for me is one of the best middle line backers in the NFL. Danil Hunter, his last two healthy seasons, 14 and a half sacks, 14 and a half sacks.

He's going to get after the quarterback. You just brought in Everson Griffin to help you on third down to give you another toy for Mike Zimmer on third down. Your linebackers in Anthony Barr and Eric Kendricks are one of the better duos in the league. Your safeties with Harrison Smith and Xavier Woods are one of the better duos in the league. Do you have some questions at Corner? Yeah, I think so. You know, Patrick Peterson, they're banking on an awful lot from him. They think that he's going to go back to being who he was two years ago and not the guy who led the league in penalties last year.

So are there questions? Yes, but the talent is there. Mike Zimmer is, you know, a top five defensive coach. And so I think when you marry all of those things, plus all these guys that they brought in, for the most part, they're on one year contracts. Like it's a prove it season, not just for Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman and sort of the bigger overarching questions about the Vikings, but Dalvin Tomlinson, you want to, you know, make some more money, have a big year. Michael Pierce, Patrick Peterson, like these players too can cash in with a big season. So there's plenty of motivation there.

I legitimately think they can be a top five defense. I think that world could exist. And I think that if you look at some of the ways they can distribute their resources, those two guys in the middle, I think align with the way that teams are trying to build right now, where you're trying to really assemble a defensive line full of dudes who they can just eat up blocks,

where you can take a gap in a half, where you can steal some bodies back, play more too high coverages behind it. The Vikings can live in that world in a way that aligns with some of the really good defenses we've seen over the last couple years. And I think that the corners, even if there's a lot of turnover, there's a world where that works out well.

Breeland is just a guy that you can rely on as an NFL player. Peterson, I think the hope is, with playing way less sticky man coverage and asking him to be 25-year-old Patrick Peterson, now going to a team that plays a lot more zone, you can hide him a little bit more. they have professional cornerbacks. So I can absolutely see that.

I also see zero depth whatsoever at any of those positions. Like if they lose anybody at all three of those levels, it could start to unravel very quickly here. Well, ding, ding, ding, we have arrived at the big problem for the Vikings, and this carries over to the offense too. They, you know, when you look at how they've spent their cap, the starters take up almost the entire cap. And then it's just veteran minimums and rookies after that.

because rookie contracts after that, they just have zero depth. You'll get cornerback. If Brewin gets hurt, they're starting Chris Boyd. I don't even know who Chris Boyd is. And you don't need to. If Harrison Smith gets hurt,

they're starting- I may need to. That's the problem. So they have absolutely no depth. They have the league's lowest vaccination rate. Like any number of things could take out some players for a short period of time. And they are, you know, trying to just stay afloat at that point.

So if they stay healthy, which is a massive, massive, if, then it's a team that can do some big things. But that, I think, is why this year is also different in terms of their floor being lower and their ceiling being higher. If they stay healthy, the ceiling can be NFC championship game appearance high.

If they don't, I mean, this realistically could be a seven-win team if things go the wrong way. And then you're asking yourself a lot of hard questions about the people in charge. So we're going to get to that. The ceiling on our defense, you can see it. If they stay healthy, I think the players are in place. What is the ceiling on offense, though?

Because I can talk myself into Adam Thiel and Justin Jefferson, Daven Cook, even Kirk Cousins. Like that is a nice quartet to start this thing with. We've seen Justin Jefferson is a full-blown superstar receiver. Even if Adam Dehwin is probably on the down swing, he's still a very, very good player. Dalvin Cook is one of the best three running backs in the entire NFL. And Kirk Cousins is a very reliable trigger. man. In this offense, he can be extremely efficient. I was looking at it the other day. I mean, he averaged the most yards per attempt on third down last year. Like, he's a good quarterback.

Maybe not a $40 million quarterback, but he's a good quarterback. Is the offensive line serviceable enough for this to be a top 10 offense? Because I think that is the big looming question. That and a first year play caller who's never done this before. Well, that and, you know, also the depth continues where they've got one of the best wide receiver doing. was in the NFL, if not the best. And yet, if one of those guys gets hurt, you have nobody behind him. Well, don't say that on this show. This is the world's foremost Amir Smith-Marcette podcast.

Well, of course, yes. And we have written about him plenty of the athletics, so please check that out. But let me just quickly sell you on perhaps best-case scenario for the Vikings on offense and why on the flip side, you should not believe in them. So if you are looking for optimism from the Vikings' offense, you've got to start. I think with the fact that this is still Gary Kubiak's offense. This is still the, you know, wide zone scheme with Dalvin Cook, a top three running back, running the show.

He is going to be very good. He's going to get a lot of carries. He's going to get a lot of yards. And I think he is going to set up Kirk Cousins to face a lot of heavy boxes. Kirk Cousins already plays against heavy boxes more than almost, you know, he's up there with Ryan Tannihill, essentially, in terms of he doesn't have to play against a lot of, you know, two high safeties. And if you're going to play the one high safety against Adam Thielen and Justin

Jefferson, I think Quinn Kubiak is going to be very fine with that matchup. And, you know, go ahead. You want to stop Dalvin? We're going to let Kirk air it out to Justin Jefferson and Adam Thielen. That, I think, is why you should be excited. I think that Kirk Cousins off of play action is one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL in that regard. He can get the ball to Jefferson who, you know, I do not think last year was any fluke.

I think he will be even better this season. But, and there is a big butt with this team, the offensive line hasn't been good for years. They probably, and I know this is hard to hear given how bad they were a year ago, they probably got worse. Which is crazy. Left tackle Riley Reef thought that they were going to replace him with a first round pick in Christian Darrasaw. Christian Darrasaw hasn't practiced yet for the Vikings. He's not going to be their week one starter. What is the timeline on him?

Well, there's not really one. He just got another procedure done. So he had, the Vikings drafted him, knowing that he had this groin injury. He needed a procedure. He was probably not going to be there from any camp. Fine, whatever. We like this guy. We draft him.

Then he shows up to training camp, kind of tries to poke around a little bit, and the injury gets worse, has to fly to Philadelphia. It gets another procedure done. His team, Derisaz team kind of thinks he might be able to practice by week one. But even if, and I'm skeptical about that, even if you're practicing week one, the guy has never gone against an NFL defensive end. Wait till he's going up against Daniel Hunter. It's a different world than what he saw at Virginia Tech. So he's probably not going to start until best case week four, week five, maybe. You're replacing a right guard with a guy who never played

guard until three weeks ago, an Oli Udo, a kid from Elon. Is there potential there? Yeah, but there are some major, major concerns with the offensive line. And, you know, it only gets worse if you think about potential injuries. The Vikings last year barely scratched the service of a top 10 offense, probably around number 10 depending on, you know, what statistic you look at or if you favor DVOA or points per game or whatever, somewhere around number 10. That was with everything kind of going their way. They had one of the best play callers in Gary Kubiak. They had immense health with Justin Jefferson and Adam Thielen not really missing much time. And then Dalvin Cook, who has had many injury concerns, played 14 out of 16 games. So things broke the Vikings' way a year

ago and they were still around number 10 offensively. So, you know, it just makes it. Feels like best case scenario. It feels like the fringe of the top time is probably best case scenario. Yeah. So that if you, you have to be a top five-ish defense. Yes. With a that fringe top 10 offense in order of them to be a competitor in the NFC North with the Packers and in the NFC at large. And I just think that's a really tough plane to land with all because even if we think the ceiling is high on the defense, I, do think threading that needle is difficult. We talked about how hard it is for the Vikings to hit that ceiling defensively, pairing that with another best case scenario on offense.

And this, of course, makes no mention of special teams, which the Vikings were the second word special teams a year ago. I didn't ask who the kicker was today. We'll spare the Vikings kicker talk because it's a franchise that has had plenty of that. And we don't need to go down that road right now. But special teams is no given either. So let's just say, hypothetically. The defense finishes, I don't know, 9th in DVOA.

The offense finishes 16th. This team goes 9 and 8. What happens? And I assume in this scenario, they missed the playoffs. They missed the playoffs. Despite an extra wild card spot, they're probably in the hunt all the way down. It probably feels a little bit like last season where the Vikings kind of thought they were in the hunt after a slow start. And then the Saints, of course, did what they did to them on Christmas Day.

Mike Zimmer still thinks that Sean Peyton ran up the score on him as Alvin Camero was marching toward his sixth touchdown of the game. But in that scenario, which is probably kind of middle of the road, as you mentioned, defense nine, offense, middle of the pack. There are a lot of very difficult conversations that ownership, the Wilfs have to have. It's an ownership group that wants to be the Steelers. They want to have the same regime in place, have players know that, you know these guys are in charge i'm not going to outlast them they're going to be here for a long time but if you miss the playoffs two years in a row a decade into it for rick spielman seven eight years into it for mike zimmer i think you're going to have to start talking about making a change two years ago

when it looked like the vikings might miss the playoffs and you know what's going to happen once they did get to the playoffs and face the saints there were questions some legit questions that Mike Zimmer was going to get fired and potentially Kevin Stefansky elevated to head coach. Ownership group at that point put out a statement, kind of weary of it, talking about what Mike Zimmer had done. Of course, they go to New Orleans, win the game. Mike Zimmer's job is safe. Kevin Stavansky goes on to become the Browns coach. Life is good for him.

But if the Vikings missed the playoffs, I would say 60% chance maybe. Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer are both looking for new jobs. It kind of feels that way. And it's tough for guys that have done such a good job and have such a track record of success, right? And Mike Zimmer has been a really good coach in this league for a long time. But that's kind of what happens is that you get to this point along the trajectory and it just feels like maybe we need something different. And you talk about all those guys on one-year deals. Maybe there's a world where it's just time to blow it all up.

It's time to move on. It's time to say what does a version of rebuilding look like? It's tough for the $40 million quarterback. But maybe you just eat it next year. And I think that is the question they're going to have to answer is if we top out as a middle of the road team and it's time to make some changes just how far do those changes go. And I think we could be looking at that sort of offseason here. For sure. And, you know, it is hard because Zimmer has done a great job.

Like when you look at his record compared to a lot of other coaches, it's surprisingly, I think you'd be surprised to see how high he ranks in a lot of these stats. They're relevant every single year. They are in it every single year. And yet that's kind of the problem. Yes. They're in it every year. It feels like they're on the cusp every year. Every year you could almost say, God, if these things go just a little bit differently, we're right there.

It's a tradition at this point. It is an annual tradition. What do you have to show for it? You have one NFC championship game appearance where Nick Foles knocked your socks off in Philadelphia. And that's kind of it. And so I think even the fan base is getting to the point where, yes, you've shown that you can be pretty good, but is consistently pretty good better than rolling the dice, taking a chance at being great,

even if it means a couple of bad years. At a certain point, that treadmill of mediocrity just gets, it gets hard. It gets tiring. It's exhausting to be on it. As I think that the Bears and the Vikings were in a pretty similar spot over the last three or four years. And the Vikings elected not to draft Justin Fields,

or they were going to and couldn't trade up for him, the Bears did draft Justin Fields, and now the Bears kind of start in this new direction, and the Vikings are headed in the same direction than they've been. And those are the decisions that you have to make in the NFL, and that's where this franchise is. And we'll see what happens. If the best case scenario works out, if they're again a top 10-ish offense and they are a top three defense this year, maybe the entire narrative changes. And this is a team that tries to ride it out for one more season.

But if it goes the other way, who knows what's going to happen? Well, I think it's just hard, especially for ownership, because you see some teams who try to get off that train that the Vikings are on right now of being pretty good. And then it takes years to get back just to even being at that point, forgetting about being great. So it's just a hard decision to make of when you jump off of pretty good because it seems like the ceiling is pretty good. It's tough to pedal hope if your ownership, when you really, really tear it down.

It's easy to pedal hope with this version of it because, like you said, right, oh, man. Maybe the defense is great. Maybe the defense is great. We're healthy again. Maybe the offensive line is better. But those are tough sell jobs after a certain amount of time. After year five of that exact conversation, it gets a little bit more difficult.

Well, and think back to 2017. The Vikings go 13 and 3 with Case Keenum as their quarterback. Teddy Bridgewater's suffered the nasty injury. There was the Sam Bradford time before his injury. Case Keenum leads them to the NFC championship game. has the miracle catch. Like at that point, they had the best events in the league. Xavier Rhodes was the best corner in all of football. They were, they were stacked everywhere. They were stacked. At that point, it seemed like, God, if we just have a quarterback, we're going to be

great. And that, of course, led them to Kirk Cousins, which led to other tough decisions on defense and losing some players. And now here you are kind of shrugging your shoulders of, can we, can we get back to that point? Can we put two best case scenarios together and hope for some magic? And I just don't know what the answer to that is. God, it feels like Vikings fans are just going to be that guy. Just remember that time. Remember, remember that 2017 season? Remember when we almost had it?

And it's just a really sad reality. The guy who had the best play of the last, since Randy Moss left, Stefan Diggs, then got so mad at how things were trying to, he forces his way out and goes on to become, you know, maybe the best wide receiver in football with the bill. So it's, you know, think of how much worse it could have gone, had the Eagles, after they trade Devon Diggs, what if the Eagles drafted Justin Jefferson

and then who knows where the Vikings are now? That trade worked out well for both sides, I would say. And Justin Jefferson is part of that best case scenario. And they have the talent here. It just depends on how it all falls together. Chad Graf, thank you very much, my friend. Very good to chat with you. I appreciate you wrapping this up for us

after what has been a long but enjoyable month. The tour is over. Sorry, Vikings fans, if that was depressing. But thank you for tuning it. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Dan, to Chad, to Andy for their time. Sincerely appreciate it. Please rate and review the podcast on your podcast platform with choice.

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