The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - In The Pocket: Anthony Richardson's rookie season cut short, quarterbacks playing through injuries, and what really happens during a bye week?

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

This week provides us an opportunity to take a step back and look at some bigger picture questions at the quarterback position. Like, what really happens during bye weeks? Is there any meaningful effect when a team changes playcallers? And how does a team adjust when it's going to start its backup quarterback? Chase Daniel walks Robert Mays through the answers to those questions, and more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show's In The Pocket.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Chase on Twitter: @ChaseDanielSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTubeThis episode is brought to you by LinkedIn: Right now, you can try LinkedIn Sales Navigator and get a sixty-day free trial at LinkedIn.com/MAYS23. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome. The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me for this week's edition of In the Pocket. It is a long time NFL quarterback. Chase Daniel, Chase, how you doing? What's going on, man?

How you doing? I'm doing very well. We got a lot of stuff to dig into this week. It was kind of a strange week for quarterback performances. A lot of duds, but duds that we've already talked about in some way, shape, or form in the past so far over the last five weeks. So we're not going to do a lot of talk about what transpired in week six. We're going to kind of zoom out a little bit today and talk about some newsy stuff,

some big picture quarterback discussions, just some things that maybe a little bit untethered from the schedule. And let's start with a bit of big news this morning. We're recording this on Wednesday around noon. Anthony Richardson out for the season in Indianapolis. He is electing to get surgery on his throwing shoulder. He is done for his rookie year. year after, I don't know, let's graciously call it four games, even though he missed chunks of most of the games that he played in.

First reaction when you saw that Anthony Richardson would not be playing football again this season. A little upset just because I wanted to watch him play. I mean, honestly, like, like from a fan standpoint, the dude was electric and honestly showed a ton of promise, in my opinion, the games that he did play and that offense that they put around him, I thought it was going to be a little special. And, you know, obviously, fans go back and forth. People go back and forth. And you saw Jim Erse's statement on Twitter, like, hey, like there were lots of opinions. Our doctors agree. He agrees that this is probably our best move forward. And I mean, even if you were to not have surgery and rehab it, like I think it's probably a little worse than people might have let on for it to be. I mean, there's, he would still miss six to eight weeks. And then it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, there's a chance of re-injury.

It doesn't heal properly. Like they have the macro in their heads in terms of like, hey, we're looking forward to the future. And it's still a tough, tough decision because you brought Gardner-Menschu in, knows the offense, has played okay, but you're at least hoping to give your guy, Anthony Richardson, like 17 games. Who cares if we make the playoffs?

Like that experience factor that a lot of people don't understand that you just, you truly have to play. the position and play in games and go through situations, good, bad, and different to actually get that experience. And there's no way around it. You can't tell me right here. And I've seen fans already say, well, he got enough experience in practice. No, there's nothing like game experience because it just moves faster. I don't care what you do anywhere in the world. You can't simulate a game. And you can't simulate the pressure that these guys face, specifically the quarterback position in games.

I'm curious. What do you think is the biggest thing that changes from learning the game on the board in the meeting room on tape to actually experiencing it in a game? What is the biggest gap that there's just no way you're going to get the right reps unless it's at live speed?

Well, the speed of the game. That's literally the number one thing. Just getting used to it, getting a sense of it. Just getting used to it. And not only like, hey, you can actually, at least in my opinion, you can actually go out with your receivers in the summer or in camp and have a good 45 minute to an hour-long throwing session,

and it can be full speed. And you can get on the same page as terms of tight-ins, running backs, receivers as the quarterback. You can build that timing. I agree with that, okay? I'm talking about speed of the game in terms of filling the pocket, right? Because, like, there's nothing you can do. Even in practice, guys are wearing red jersey saying, stay away from the quarterback.

stay away from the quarterback. And very rarely, I'd say like 30 to 35 percent of throws in the NFL are in a clean pocket. Like you're constantly moving. You're constantly having to switch positions, to switch your platform, to switch your arm angle. You can't do that in seven on seven or shorts or anything like that. You have to be able to feel everything around you for you to get that timing in your head and say, hey, okay, let's look at this film. I was sped up on this. Why was I sped up on this play? well, okay, look, there's no one around you. You're not seeing ghosts. Just like you have to get into that rhythm.

And the only way to do that is compounding games together and getting these games flowing back and forth. So that's probably the worst part of this whole situation for him is he's not going to gain the experience. My first reaction, bummer. This sucks. He is so fun to watch. He was electric in the moments that we got to see him.

I was so excited about what that offense would look like with him in it. So that's reaction one. Reaction two is you're talking about that experience. this is a guy who started a dozen games in college. The experience for him was arguably more important than it would be for any highly drafted young quarterback to come along in years. And now you lose out on that. At the same time, you get how the Colts landed here on a bunch of different levels.

If it were any other organization, maybe they talk themselves into, he can rehab it. It's six weeks. The experience of him being on the field is more important than whatever long. long-term injury risks were going to way. And talking to people there this morning, the Andrew Luck thing is on their minds. It absolutely is. They are not going to ruin another quarterback. They are taking the longest view possible on this because of what they've already

been through in that building and in that organization. From the outside looking in, it would be easy to speculate. Maybe that's part of the decision making. I can 100% tell you that it is. So them keeping that in mind, it's not surprising based on what this team and what this organization has been through over the last. last five years. Yeah, it's just an interesting situation because you go back to the Andrew Luck situation and man, especially with Ballard there and the amount of head coaches they've been

through. It's just like, look, there's no more, and we've talked about it a lot before and you agree, there's no more important position in sports than quarterback in the entire world. Like, I don't care what you say you. I'd love to see what the pushback on that would look like. What my counter argument would be. Maybe I'll try to come up with one just for the sake of it. Yeah, yeah. But like you would, you would say that there's nothing that rides more on a team. team success in any type of sport than the quarterbacks play and the quarterback's progression as he continues to get. Everyone's constantly searching. There's five or five to eight teams right now that are like, we have our guy. And then there's another five or eight that are like, well, you know, we don't know.

Maybe. And then there's five to 10 teams. They're like, we don't have our guy. Like, let's look to this draft. And that's just how it always is. It's constantly evolving. And you just, you leave no stone unturned. I mean, look at the, I mean, until you find your eye, look at the San Francisco 49ers with Brock Purdy. Mystery Relevant. You got Jimmy G. coming in. You trade up. You mortgage a franchise for Trey Lance. And then all of a sudden, hey, it's mystery relevance.

Last Bigger draft. Look what we found. Like, awesome. Like, we're great. Look at our scouting department. No one else wanted them. Okay, that's awesome. But I feel like this is a situation because they are all in behind Anthony Richards, that they truly believe he could be the bedrock foundation of that, of that organization.

I think that's also part of this. is that this question of do we have the guy? They think they do. They've seen enough from him already, whether it was in training camp, the first little flashes that we got over the first month of the season, to feel good about where he's going to be at going into year two. Still a bummer.

Still a real disappointment as a football fan that we're not going to be able to see this. I'm curious, in your career, were you ever in a locker room where this kind of decision was being weighed? We're like, all right, I can get back on the field, let's say, in a month. but I know I'm risking long-term damage if I end up doing that. I'm going to elect to get the surgery.

Not necessarily from a quarterback position. You know, the closest would probably be Trubisky in 2019 when he really messed up his shoulder in the Minnesota Vikings game. Like it was probably a lot worse than a lot of people probably were led on to believe. And I know we're going to get into it later, but it's just it's difficult in terms of. Yeah, it's difficult in terms of injuries to quarterbacks because what that does to your preparation as a starter. So the Richardson News is a good entry point into what's been a persistent topic all week. And that is just quarterback injuries and their overall impact on a player, a team, and even a season.

You know, we've seen a lot of guys miss time already this year. But we've also seen a lot of guys push through what might be considered multi-week injuries. Joe Burrow with his calf playing through that. Derek Carr hurts his shoulder. He plays through that. Josh Allen is now banged up. Does he play this week? It sounds like it.

How close to 100% will he be? Trevor Lawrence dinged his knee last week. It sounds like he's going to try to play on Thursday. But how healthy is he? So you've watched this a lot in your career. And I want to dig into the dynamic of that because as fans, and when I say fans, I mean me, I rarely think about, all right, what percentage is this guy really? Because if they're out there, in my mind, they're healthy enough to play.

And that means they're bumping up against 90, 100%, which I'm sure is very rarely the case. So when you're in a room, when you're in a quarterback room and an offensive meeting room and you know the quarterback is diminished. How does that change things? I mean, it changes it drastically. And I would say that most quarterbacks go through the season. If you think that they're 90 and 100, like, you know, if they're out there, I would say that it's close to like 60 to 70 to. 70%. And it's just like we've always said, or at least I've always said, I don't know if I've told you this, but the best ability of a quarterback is availability. And so that is always in

the back of these guys' heads. Like, hey, look, I am a better option and I have the competitive juices flowing that I can play through something, even though I don't think it's going to affect me, even though looking back on film, it does. Joe Burrow is the perfect. example of this. Okay. Even Jamar Chase came out and said it, right? Like, hey, look, dude, we don't need Joe Burrow till after the buy. Like, we don't need Joe Burrow. And then, and you look at Joe Burroughs first four games. The dude just was not him self at all. Last two games, okay, you're good. You get a, you get a rest for buy. And then they're, you know, you could see them start rolling again. They get the three and three. And it's just a situation where multiple times I've seen, even with Breeze in

New Orleans, like, like just something that nags you, right? Like, like, Not only like, it could be the, like, take for instance, Breeze had like like an elbow on his non throwing hand that was just like just required more time in the training room. And or like Herbert last year with his ribs. It just required him to not maybe work out exactly how he wanted to every single day because he couldn't do those moves. And so it's all these compounding factors that add up. It's more time spent in the in the in the, in the, in the physical therapist, in the training room, than the film room because that's just the case because these guys, I mean, and I've been around it too. Like you just, you want to be able to be available for your team to play. And so I think that's

what is lost on a lot of these fans is like exactly what you said. You see these guys out there and they're playing. Okay. And they may look like a little bit just off. And it's just it's so hard. Like I take for instance like like I like I broke down Justin Herbert this past week against against the Cowboys like looked at the all 22 backwards and forwards and in and live. I thought that he was just like a little bit off accuracy-wise. And I'm not saying he didn't complete a lot of passes, but maybe there was a pass that was supposed to be in your front pack, and it was a little bit low and behind that caused a receiver,

maybe, hey, instead of a 15-yard gain, it's a five-yard game. And you just continued seeing it. And the way he was landing on his hand, it was like he was like protecting his hand. And everyone's like, it's not, it's your non-thron hand. Why does it matter? Well, it matters because it's always in the back of your head. And that could be for any injury, no matter what it is.

it's always going to affect you. And the guys that are tough enough to play through it. I mean, Justin, last year, um, I want to dig into this because I'm very curious about what the conversation was like. So when he hurts at week two against the chiefs, correct? Yeah. Wasn't that the timing of it? And he didn't, did he miss a game?

No. So he missed zero games. Okay. So he played the next week against Jacksonville. What was the conversation like that week? Were you aware of how hurt he was, what the percentage? would be how likely it was going to be that he was going to play how likely it was going to be that you were going to play like what was the discourse as he's deciding all right i'm clearly

injured but i'm going to play because there's a cost benefit there yeah and there is and the dudes the dude's a beast man like he he truly is like when he got hit in the chief's game it's always like okay hey you're your your my blood pressure starts going up because he didn't get up and i'm like oh my gosh you're trying to come into the game cold like like hadn't throw a ball since the first quarter and you're thinking all these things, all right? How bad is it? Am I going to play for extended period of time? Am I not going to play for extended period of time? Let's just go out there and go and I played two snaps and he was like, oh, I'm good. Dude, I'm telling you, he, like, what I saw in him, like, will forever change my opinion of him in general and how such a tough

SOB that guy is because the dude on the sideline after that series, he couldn't, he could not move. He could not bend over at all. And then he goes back. on that fourth and eight, I want you guys to show it. I want you to find it, fourth and seven, four and eight. Just an insane, man. It, like, I'm like, what in the world? And ends up throwing another touchdown pass in that game. And it's just like, man, that like really showed me. And then obviously, like the adrenaline wears off in that week in Jacksonville. He didn't take many reps at all. I mean, that was obviously like the case. I took a lot of the reps. He was maybe throw, I don't think he threw on Wednesday or Thursday. And he threw a little bit on Friday. And then on Saturday, he was like,

hey, I think I can go. Like, I think I can go. And of course, you're going to go with a Justin Herbert. Like, like, you know, even he felt like he could protect himself and the team agreed. And it wasn't the best game for us. I think that was different. But then he just continued getting treatment throughout the year. He continued progressing.

But at the end of the day, a slight little, like, rib cartilage fracture doesn't seem very painful. Wait until you sneeze out there. Wait until you're a rotational athlete and you're trying to rotate. So all these different injuries around League, all these small things that people are like, oh, he can play through it. Yeah, he can. But I'm telling you right now, they're not at 100%.

So how do you weigh the Justin Herbert at 60% versus Chase Daniel at, let's say, 80%? If that's how healthy you were at that point. At what point do you decide, all right, he's just not healthy enough to get us where we need to go. And the Joe Burrow thing is another consideration here. He clearly wasn't right in those first few games. He could barely move. It was affecting their pass protection. It's affecting the way the offense could function.

But the Bengals landed on, this guy at 60% still gives us the best chance. What is that conversation like? Well, I mean, I go back to the Joe Burrow and the Bengals situation because clearly the dude could not move. I mean, he was just a standing target back there in the pocket. And like you said, it's like, hey, you know, if I'm Zach Taylor and I'm the GM there and I'm saying, hey, Jake Browning, I think's the backup. Okay, he's 100%. Does he give us a better chance to win or not? And ultimately, it comes down to the starter.

Like if the starter and the, in the athletic staff agree that, hey, like, you can play. And if you want to play, you're going to play. Like sometimes as coaches, you have to protect your quarterback. Like we saw it last year in the championship game with Patrick Mahomes. He could barely walk. Or maybe it was the divisional. It was against the Jaguars. Yeah, division round.

Sorry. He could barely walk. And it was so cool seeing the inside footage of, of, uh, of, of, Andy Reid going up to Patrick Mahones and be like, hey man, listen, listen, just go get an X-ray. And Patrick's like, no, like these guys are super competitors because they want to be out there. And then eventually he was like, no, you got to go get X-rayed. Okay. And then you come back into the game.

He's like, all right, I'm good. And like, can you protect yourself? That's what in the back of their minds and these head coach's minds, they're weighing. And I think with the Joe Burrough situation at the end of the day, if Joe wants to play and Joe feels like he's healthy enough to play, the dude's going to play. like unless it's like something where you can't even throw the football. I mean, Philip Rivers played through a torn ACL in the FC championship game.

Like eventually it just, it's not even, it's not even a situation of if or when. And it's like that brings me back to the other side of the situation with Deshawn Watson. Okay. Deshawn Watson, he was cleared,

or at least his head coach told us he was cleared to play. Last two weeks didn't play. Okay. I'm not, and I'm not bringing into account of his toughness or anything like that. It was probably a miscommunication between the trainers and the head coach and Deshaun thinking Deshawn was going to play. And DeShan's like, literally, I don't feel like I'm in a good enough situation to play.

And honestly, I applaud Deshawn for it. Like, at the end of the day, you want to protect yourself. And if you don't think you can go out there and give your team the best effort and the best situation to win the game, then I'm good with it. Like, I have no issue whatsoever with the Deshawn Watson situation at all. The dude doesn't think you can play. okay he shouldn't get crap about not being able to play what i put it on is i put it on stafansky because i'm like why are you even telling the media that in the first place because

not only are you making yourself look a little bit uh like you don't know what's going on but you're also putting your quarterback in a situation where he has to explain himself we talked about this with diana a little bit earlier this week on the rsini report which you can watch on youtube it was just a wording semantics thing he was medically cleared to play that's why he was warming up. The trainer said like, all right, if he's healthy enough, he feels good, he can play. So in his, and Stefansky's my own, he's answering that question, well, he's warming up. Of course, he's trying to play. Of course, he's medically cleared. So that was just, I think, the issue that there was a little bit of a miscommunication. So that was going to be my question.

Like, what boxes do you have to check to get on the field? I can play, right? Like, I am physically capable of playing, and there is not significant risk of serious further injury, right? So, Mahomes, right? If there's a break in that ankle, he can't go back out and play because then you're risking serious long-term damage. So as long as you're not risking serious long-term damage and the quarterback wants to play, those are pretty much the bars you need to clear to get out to the field. I was going to say the number one thing. The number one thing is you have to, like, okay, first of all, you have to be able to do something during the week to show the team and the staff like you can handle the situation. Even if it's 20 plays throughout the,

the week. Like you've got to be able to get out there and actually do it. Okay, I very rarely seen quarterbacks take no reps during the week in play. And the other thing is like the, the risk of re-injury, right? Because at the end of the day, they don't want a maybe two to three week, you just call it a high ankle sprain turning into a two or three month high ankle sprain because you re-injured it when you went out there. That's the biggest thing. And that is why, you know, it's above my pay grade when I was there. That's what the head coach, GM, athletic trainer. And and the quarterback or whoever's playing, they weigh those risks. And if the quarterback's like, hey, I'm going to, I'm okay with the risk of injury.

That's at a point where I think the GM and the head coach have to step in and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, look, dude, it is not like, like, okay, we're around 500, take Joe Burrell and just, dude, take a day off, take a game off. Like, but it's just, I'm telling you right now, it seems so easy talking about it, but when their competitive juices get flowing, especially, especially at the, quarterback position where there's 32 in the world that can do it on a given week, it gets a little dicey. The calf is so weird too.

It seems like a very fickle injury where the progression and the healing is not linear at all. And think about the timing of it. He takes six weeks off before week one. He looks like he can't even function over the first couple games. He retweaks it in the game against Baltimore. And then two weeks later, he looks, if not 100%, then much, much healthier. than he did at any other point. So just the roller coaster of healing and progress with that injury,

I think made it even more difficult. I'm curious on the Herbert side, what had to change knowing that he was playing in that sort of condition? Did the game plan change? Did the way that you guys prepared change? Like, what are the actual tangible impacts of that? Well, it depends on the quarterback's different types of injuries. As far as Herbert, not a lot changed.

I think maybe, you know, we said in the, quarterback room like hey bro just like if something's not there just get away like there's no need like get away like a hair early and he was so good at that like he rarely did that a lot last year i think you could see that that probably impacted a little bit and it did and there's nothing there's nothing wrong with that because it is what it is but now that he's healthy for the most part i know his finger like you're even the dallas game he's able to move in the pocket up and out out i thought he had his best game of his career really buying time against that dallas he got sacked one time he was under pressure like 48 percent of the time, which you go back and you actually study, which I literally just watched the

all 22 of it. It was probably the most impressive thing I've seen from Justin was for him able to maneuver around in the pocket and get out, make plays outside of the pocket. But, you know, it depends on the quarterback's injuries. Obviously, like, let's just take Joe Burrow. Because that's interesting to me, there's no sprint outs, right? Like that decent part of their game is like moving the pocket. And also, Joe's been really good. And you saw the past two weeks of, hey, if one and two's not open. Let me just buy enough time. These quarterbacks, all these quarterbacks, just like that half second more for these deeper down the field routes. Like Patrick Mahomes, he's the best in the world at doing that. Like obviously. But these guys that are elite

quarterbacks, Josh Allen, Joe Brill, they buy the half extra second just so the route can develop. And that's when you see stuff getting open. And that's what, especially the last two weeks you saw with with Cincinnati. The last thing I wanted to hit on here is that you played with one of famously tough guys in the league and Matthew Stafford and like what he's been able to play through in his career. In the second half of the 2020 season, which was your only season in Detroit, he was on the injury report every single week in the second half of the season. It was either a thumb or a rib or whatever. Just a little, I would, I'm curious to hear like how his ability to play through things compares to other guys that you've been around. Well, the dude is just tough.

Like, like, the dude is just tough as nails. And honestly, like, it's a roller coaster of emotion for the back. up quarterback and myself because every single week he's like bro like I can't I just don't know man I don't know just be ready and every time he'd go out there and play and there I actually played like a decent amount of spot time that game the Tennessee game the Green Bay game he rolled his ankle or something but like I mean I'm telling you like oh boy like is Rebecca I'm like I'm playing I'm going I'm going and he's like oh no okay are you okay Matthew you okay you good and then he ends up just like taking no reps during practice and then he'll just rolls through the week and I'm like dude

How in the world are you doing this? And I think it's it's so easy to say and people, you know, will, will maybe disagree with me, but it is such a mindset for him. Like if you, and we've talked about the risk of re-injury. A lot of these, for him, the risk of re-injury wasn't high. But the dude also like is just like a mental warrior in terms of just like, hey, I can do it. He's done it his entire career. I mean, even like the past couple years in L.A., he's got an arm sleeve.

on. He's got an elbow issue. He's got a knee issue. He's got a concussion. All this stuff. It just seems to me that he just takes the brunt of these hits. And it's just somehow, I mean, every hit in 2020, toward the end of the year when we knew we were going to make the playoffs and he's still gutting it out. Every hit, I'd be like, oh, helmet on. And he'd get up just slowly. And like, oh, I'm telling you, it was a roller coaster emotions for me. With these guys who, obviously he's not like six, five like some of these other dudes are, but every once in a while this year in his performance, I think is another. the reminder of this. You forget that he was just like one of the dudes for like his entire life.

Like going back from the time he was 18 years old, like he's just one of like the chosen guys in terms of like what he physically looks like and plays like. And that reminds me of Philip Rivers a little bit. And Philip Rivers' ability to just never get hurt throughout his career. And people are, I mean, never miss a start his entire career. People are like, oh man, like how does he manage to do that? And the first time I stood next to Philip Rivers for the first time in my life, I was like, I get it now. Philip River. is a massive dude. Like his,

him in the pocket compared to even defensive ends and defensive players he's going against, it's not like they dwarf him. He's a massive guy. And so it's like, okay, I can understand how he withstands this. Brady is huge. Eli Manning is huge. These guys who consistently were always on the field,

you just think about what their physical profiles like, and it really does stand out, I think, in that one specific area. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Philip, now, Philip's a big son of a gun now.

Like I was surprised too. When I went up there, I'm just like, dude, it's super impressive what he's been able to do. We've got some starting quarterbacks this week who we know aren't going to play. There's no question about what they're going to play through. Justin Fields being the best example. And we've had a couple of these over the last couple weeks. Gardner Minshu started last week for the Colts, P.J. Walker for the Browns. And this is all with a full week of practice with the starters knowing they're going to play,

not getting thrust in in the middle of a game. And this is an area where you've definitely got some experience as a backup who's had to deal with these sort of situations. I'm just curious, how does the weak look when you're a backup that knows he's going to start? How does that week of preparation change for that guy compared to maybe the guy who's already the starter? Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting situation because, I mean, I'm sure people watching this show understand that, like, the backup quarterback gets no reps during the week with the starters. zero. You were literally running the scout team against the one defense and you were literally running cards. If say the Chargers are playing the Cowboys, I'd be Dak Prescott if I was the backup for the Chargers all week long. So you get no reps. And then what I always did was I always ended up

after those reps on the scout team, I would stay after and I would always walk through the practice script of the starting plays. I maybe not get the throws that the starter get, but maybe there's on Wednesday, say there's 35 plays. I would go through and I'd have maybe the quarterback coach, or the OC when I was in New Orleans, it was Joe Lombardi. He would just stay out there with me and we would just walk through the script. He would repeat the play to me and he'd tell me the play and I'd repeat it back. And we'd walk through the footwork. It's sort of what you see to do with Daryl Bevel pregame is like you do that exact same thing, walk through. Okay, here's read, here's a read. You don't necessarily get the same throws, but it is different when a backup knows he's going to start because maybe say it's week five or week six and this is the first time he's had a

full week of practice with the ones. Okay. And that's what people don't understand is like as a backup for six weeks, you haven't run your team's offense in a practice or a game. So it's a little bit foreign at the start of the week. It's a little bit weird. So how do you even come in in the middle of a game and function then? Like what Tyson Bayesian had to do last week.

How much of the game plan are you actually aware of comfortable with? Like, all right, let's say like what happened in Chicago. Quarterback gets hurt in the third quarter, you have to come in. how much of the offense that they've put in this week is even available to you as a backup who comes in in the middle of the third quarter? Oh, you better be able to run every single bit of it. I mean, that's just that's just like the way it is, man. That's literally why you are a backup quarterback in this league. And I've always said it one, I've always said it twice.

Like you got to be ready. The two things of a backup quarterback, one, you have to play and play really well when you're called upon. Like no if, no ifs or buts about it. This league is a production league. That's it. Bottom line. And two, you have to be able to service a starter. way possible. So whatever he needs to do to get ready, you do it. And one of those things is like,

hey, I might stay extra. And that's how I sort of prided myself on. I might stay extra, you know, after the starter goes home or after something else, or maybe dive into the playbook just a little bit more. So mentally, I know that I can run every single play. And that's what I prided myself on. And I'm sure it changes. Like, but as an undrafted rookie free agent in Tyson, like, it's, you're not, you're probably not as an offensive play caller. That falls on you. You're not going to call the entire offense that maybe you would for Justin Fields, because they're a little bit different players. And so I think that's always been an interesting thing in the week is like,

how do these offensive coordinators or play callers offensively know that they can trust a backup quarterback? Well, it starts in free agency. It starts in your team. You have to be able to understand like you go back to training camp. I've had, I've had guys like Nagy went back and just watched some of my training camp reps before we put a game plan in and be like, hey, you're really good. We feel like you're really good at this.

Are you comfortable with this? And that's another thing. There's just open conversation. Hey, every time I've had it, it's like maybe even more so than the starter. Like, hey, do you feel comfortable with this? Because if you're not, we're going to pull it because I don't want you in a situation where you have to go out there and run something you've never ran before. Right.

And so I think that's the interesting dynamics with this is like people don't understand. It's like, dude, you're not getting reps during the week. And say you go in in week six, it's like even something is easy for practice. something as easy as the quarterback center exchange. Like for me last year, when I had that, like me and Corey Lindsay had a little bit of an issue because it was like, and it was mostly my fault because I was getting out of the,

out of there too early versus Justin stood in there. So even the smallest details make all the difference. And then also, you know, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Josh Palmer, I haven't thrown to those guys since training camp. And honestly, maybe like a few days in training camp and never live. Because you're always going with the two. So think about that situation too. for a guy to be able.

And that's what makes the position of backup quarterback so difficult. You never know what to expect. You got to just go out there and ball out and play. And that's what I felt like some of these guys coming in. Like I was really impressed with PJ Walker, honestly, last week for him able to do that. So obviously the stuff that's specific to Justin, the quarterback runs stuff, some of those elements in the offense, that's in the garbage when Tyson's invasion comes in for the most part. But other than that, like the passing game game plan, what performance? percentage do you think can stay the same for a backup? Is it 60%? Is it 80%? Like how much of that has to

change when you know the backup quarterback is going to be in there, even getting a full week of reps? Yeah, a lot of these teams. I mean, for me, I'm just going to say what I know. I, every coach I was on knows I can run 100% of the game plan. And that's how I wanted it to be. And that's why I felt like I was able to succeed so much because they're like, hey, we don't have to change these game plans. And if you look, most teams, most teams not at all, like to get a back. backup quarterback that is similar to the starter in terms of ability in terms, not necessarily, like, hey, you can be a starter too, but in terms of like what you can do on the field. Does that make sense? So when you, it is time. So what the Ravens have done over the last couple years and how they've built their quarterback room, I think it's been very intentional.

And the fact that some teams don't do that, whether it's Gardner Minshu or what the bears are going through right now, you've got to experience a pretty wild swing. And that's why, that's why I always look at who are the backup quarterbacks and how similar the backup is to the starter because obviously there's going to be things like it's a different right like let's break it up in the two two things like one you know the entire week that you're going to be the starter because the backup's going to be the starter so you get the whole week of practice obviously the game planning of an offensive coordinator and people that are game planning are going to game plan for you as the backup right okay that that makes it a lot easier because they're only going to put in stuff

you feel comfortable with so 100% of that game plan will be be what you're going to call. And if you're if a plays in, you might just have a little bit less amount of plays. But those plays in, you're going to end up running it. That's my question. It's maybe fewer plays that it would be for a quarterback that's gotten used to the what you're inputting over a six week period. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's fair. But, but then you look at what's interesting is always like if a starter gets hurt in the game. Right. And that's happened to me in Minnesota with the Chicago Bears in 2018. And it's like, all right. Like there was actually a high bit of, uh, high bit of like quarterback running that game for Mitch and you saw him like scrambling around and he got

heard on like the third play of the game first drive and they're like all right so then if you watch that game I just went to nag at the sideline I was like hey let's just go more no huddle let's just get out there let's just press them with going and we ended up playing really well and they were able but like a lot of that game plan I felt comfortable with but at the same time you sort of lean into what your starters wants because if your starter feels comfortable then you're probably going to have a good game offensively I don't know. You're selling yourself short. I saw you move around a lot in like the 2007 season. You're more mobile than you give yourself credit for. Maybe not in 2018. At that point, we were both deep into our 30s at that point. The familiarity and the connection with the receivers, how do you go about trying to build that in a truncated amount of time? How do you microwave that? Is it just discussions? Is it throwing after practice? What does that look like? Well, it's it's getting the reps on the field. And if for some reason, I were to, you know, miss a throw to Keenan Allen. Like, I'm going to grab Keenan Allen,

even though he's a superstar and be like, yo, bro, like, I just need one. Because a lot of these older receivers, like, I'm trying to say my legs. I'm trying to do that. But it's like a lot of these receivers also are really cool. If it's the backup, oh, yeah, bro. Like, just don't be the ball a hundred times in the game. We're good, bro. Like, yeah, I'll do whatever you want, post practice. So that was always my case. I was always wanting to get as many possible throws. even if they would spot up and not run the full routes because their legs are dead if it's later in the season, I would go full speed through my drop and I would throw maybe an out route six or seven times until I was like, all right, I'm good, you're good. All right, let's go spot up somewhere else. And I think it's just those reps,

man. I think it's just there's so hard to go out there just not knowing the timing of receivers. Even Mike Williams like, like, bro, I need a go ball because I need to see like actually feel how you're going to throw it or how you're going to be. And do you want a backshel or do you want not? And you just have to sort of feel, I mean, that's what, that's what this position is, is you've got to be able to just drop up a hat, man, get in there and perform. How different do guys come out of breaks? Like, if two different receivers are running like a comeback, how different are the nuances in that route, in the timing and where you want to put the ball between two specific guys?

Yeah, it's a lot because you take, for instance, Josh Palmer versus like a Keenan Allen or Mike William, Josh Palmer is explosive for the, for the charges, right? this is what I'm talking about because it's the last team I was on. I remember these receivers. Josh Palmer's explosive and he might come at a 45 degree angle and he might just because he was a newer receiver second third year. He might just run the route on the paper where he's exactly supposed to be. And I might like, ah, I don't love that versus Akina Allen. He's not quite as like, he's fast twitchy, but he's not like coming down as fast. He's played in the league a lot longer. He might just actually do what you would expect him to do based on the coverage and the leverage.

of the corner. It's more intuitive. It's more intuitive. And there's nothing wrong with that. It just comes with experience, right? You're constantly trying to grow as a team. And Mike Williams, I'm like, hey, I might need two hitches for Mike Williams because he might take just a half second longer to get out of his break. So all of that stuff goes. But at the end of the day, like the best backup quarterbacks, they just play the game, man. They try not to overthink stuff. And I think I've been in situations in games where I just try to overthink stuff and try to overcoach stuff. And at the end of the day, those are probably my worst games. Like, you just got to go out there. And at the end of the day, you can do as much as you want in pre-practice and pre-game and trying

to get timing right. But you just got to go out there and play. Like, let your instincts take over, stop thinking and just go out there and play and throw the ball and it'll end up where it is. In your career, who do you think you had the most intuitive connection with where you just kind of understood how they were moving where you had to put the ball in that relationship was just really fine-tuned? Yeah. I mean, I honestly really, really, really enjoyed throwing to Alan Robinson when he was with the Bears. I just thought that he was such an easy target to throw to, but he also back in that time had that fast twitch. He had the separation ability. And if you look at the games, I mean, it was him and Treek Cohen were the ones that I was throwing to the most because I was

like, hey, look, like these are my two best. I don't care what the coverage is. I'm going to feed them the ball. And those are these guys that give you the best chance to win. It's like, hey, if a coverage takes me to Trey Burton on a seam route, I'm like, well, okay, that's great. It might be open. If not, where's my checkdown? Where's Tarek? As fast as I can get to, because those guys with the ball in their hands were special. How often can you get away with that? If the coverage is dictating that you go somewhere else, but you know you have a guy that you like that can consistently win,

that's your number one receiver, how many, like what's the percentage? Like, how often can you do that? That's a great question. I think it just depends on what the defense is doing in terms of coverage and structure. And I was always a part of,

and wanted to like run the offense to the best of my ability. But the older I got, the more I was just like, hey, like this game is about matchups. And even some of the best coaches I would, I would have would be like, hey, it's players, not plays, right? It's players not plays. And, you know, it might dictate here.

But you got Alan Robinson one-on-one. You want to take a go-ball? So be it. Like, I remember a touchdown I threw in London. It was a slug-o route to Alan Robinson to the field. I think it was a trips formation and it was a quarter's coverage. So that should be completely dead. But I was just like, you know what?

I'm just going to toss it up there and see what it was. And we made a really good back shoulder catch and throw. And it was one of the things. I was like, wow, okay. Like, maybe I just need to feed my guy. Like, I'm not going to do it every time. There's a risk and reward to it. But it was, it was something that I, that I remember doing for sure.

What's the conversation in the film review after that? Like, what does a coach say to you when you make that sort of decision? Great throw. Like, great throw. That's probably the right answer. Like, you, like, you save my ass. Like, because we called a play that we were thinking we'd get single high coverage and you made the throw.

and that's why it's like, I'm telling you, dude, like, most of these, most of these coaches, like you can put yourself in a position to play, but at the end of the day, it's a players, right? Like, you can, you think you can draw up some plays, and, you know, we've talked about this before on this channel on the show, it's like, hey, once or twice a game, you're going to get really lucky, and you're going to get the exact same look you drew up against this corner stop route, corner go route, whatever it is, and it's going to be wide open one or two times a game. That's it. And so the rest, it's just players making plays.

Some more quarterback adjacent news this week. The Panthers are switching play callers going from Frank Gregg to offensive coordinator Thomas Brown. Their sale of this has been interesting. Frank Gregg coming out and saying that this was always the plan. I wanted to do this. This isn't ownership driven, which that's fine. Whatever the truth is there doesn't really matter here.

We'll never know. I wanted to hit this from a few different angles. But first of all, I'm just curious. What sort of change and how much change can you really, expect with this sort of switch? I mean, none. I mean, it's like, it's, it's, in my opinion, in what I've, I haven't had a lot of switches, but, you know, Thomas Brown might just be able to put his spin on the offense.

And I don't know. What does that look like? Like, how, how does a different play caller express himself differently, even if the menu is the same that they're picking from? I would say different play callers have a foundation of where they first started in this league and who they first started with and what in their mind. Maybe it's not exactly right because it's Frank Reich's team, Franks right's offense obviously. And everyone's putting their plays together. But Thomas Brown might have this thing from the Rams that he's just like,

man, we got to get this in. Right. We got to get this in. And it's a foundational like aspect of who they are as a play caller. Now, I don't know if Frank is giving them full rain. I'm sure Frank will still be a part of the game planning. But it's different when you're calling plays for a first time because you can have that foundational aspect of these plays, but it's a whole other level actually calling them and actually studying to be a play caller in a game, if that makes sense. It absolutely does.

So you played for several head coaches that were also play callers. And I'm curious, now that Frank has the ability to kind of be more of that CEO, I'm going to oversee everything type of head coach, when you don't have that ability, when you're an Andy Reid, when you're Sean Payton, you know, all these guys, you can name a Mike McDaniel, Kyle, Shannahan, Sean McVe.

Matt Willfleur, all these head coaches that call plays. What responsibilities are they maybe not tending to because they have to worry about being the primary play caller? Yeah, I think as an offensive play caller as a head coach, it's always an interesting dynamic to me. Like Sean Payton, Andy Reed, Matt and Aggie, Doug Peters. I've been with a ton of them on offense. Like I just continue.

And it's always interesting to me because I've never really been, I mean, I'm trying to think I've never really been with a CEO Oh, style coach, which like Brandon Stanley calls defense. Well, Brandon Staley calls defense. Matt Patricia called the defense. That's right. That's right. I mean, all the teams I've been on, all I've done was like, hey, the play caller.

So that's all I'm used to. But I will say it does take away from their ability. And I think the head coach, if they're the play caller, whether on offense or defense, it does take away their ability to be present in different meetings throughout the week, whether it's special teams or defense if you're an offensive play caller. it does take away your ability because to actually look at the defense on practice like live and look at the special teams on practice live

and to actually feel like you're a part of the defensive rooms because you're the one installing. So there's a lot of different dynamics to it that are interesting to me. And I think with Frank doing this, he's going to have more time to just be a head coach. And nowadays, I feel like the games change so much, especially college.

But in the NFL, it's just like you have to, you are pulled just. so many different ways. Like one of the things that that Nagy told me, I always remember in 2018, he's like, man, like, you're getting pulled so many different ways, like, as a head coach, that like, you know, you got to worry about scheduling. You got to worry about if this guy, do we need to find this guy for being two pounds overweight? What is the food going to look like? All this different stuff that the head coach has his hand on, but also have to actually prepare to be the play caller in a game is a whole different dynamic rather than just focusing on team

strategy. So how involved is a head coach that calls plays? Like, are they in every single offensive meeting? When you're looking at like Daryl Bevel in Detroit compared to an Andy Reed or Sean Peyton, how much more present is the offensive coordinator because that's his entire job or are the head coaches that you work with, they were as available as present as any offensive coordinator. They were as available and as present as any offensive coordinator.

Honestly, like I viewed Bevel at the time as. like, oh, he's the head coach because that's all I knew and not not saying in terms of team, right? But it's just like, that's all I saw because Patricia was so worried about getting the defense right and the special teams right, all that stuff. So I was just like, oh, okay, like, Beville, I'm seeing 90% of the time. And that obviously like when, when Patricia got fired, he ended up being the head coach. And so that was a whole other dynamic because he gave the play calling and everything like that, that else. So it was just a weird dynamic. But as far as Andy Reed and John Payton, like, they are very involved in, and even.

the install of the plays. Like Andy, at least when I was there, he was the play caller. He was installing every single play. And I think it switched to give him a little bit more time to be more present with other situations. Well, I think that was part of that he was in Philly and he didn't do that anymore. And I think that he felt like he had lost the string a little bit near the end of his time in Philadelphia where he wanted to be more a part of, this is what we're installing. I'm going to be a huge presence here because I want them to feel me in this room.

I think that was a conscious choice that he made when he was. he went to Kansas City. And it was the first year, because I was there on the ground level with Andy, right? Like they traded for Alex Smith and then they ended up signing me and free agency. And it was like, wow, this is awesome to see like, you know, everyone had heard what he'd done in Philly and he was a living legend. And now he's even more of a living legend with all the Super Bowls. He's won. But it's just like, man, it was really cool to see the foundational aspects of an offense. And it was not anyone else. It was him. Every single training camp install the first three years. It was him every single Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, install, because he wanted it run his way.

And obviously, as they continue to get older and move on into the years that he's been there, he's given the players a lot more rain. And I think it's honestly been a really good situation for everyone involved. If you're a quarterback on a team, what do you think is the right distribution of roles? Do you think having a head coach who's the play caller and is kind of the bedrock of what you can be offensively? do you think that is the best way to handle it in a vacuum? It's the only thing I know. So yeah.

Yeah, because like you talk about some of the best offenses of all time, the Sean Payton and the Andy Reed, and they're the ones that's responsible for it. Sean McVeigh. I mean, dude, the dude is crazy, like crazy good, like at drawing. And Daniel and Shanahan right now. Dude, McDaniel and Shanahan. So I like it.

Now, I understand that they probably need a little bit more time with off. And that's why so many of these guys, the Sean Payton's, the Andy Reid's of the world, who calls plays on offense, they hire really good defensive coordinators in terms of like knowledgeable leadership aspect of things, not first time defensive coordinators because they want, like Andy Reeves Spags, I guarantee you, like they have a little meeting at the beginning of week and Spaggs is like, bro, I got this. And Andy's like, you got the defense, bro. And that's honestly a way to make your coaches better because they feel even more part of the plan. So it's a win-win for a lot of these situations. You look at the choices.

is that head coaches have made for those defensive coordinator roles. And they're often very intentional. McVeigh going with Wade Phillips when he got to Los Angeles to be like, all right, you got it. I don't have to worry about this. Two specifically in the NFC North that I don't think we're an accident. Fangio stays when you guys go to Chicago and when Nagy comes over. So you can just completely contract that side out. 100%.

It's a long time ago now, and I'm sure there's been multiple different conversations and layers to this discussion since. But Mike Petton stayed in Green Bay when Matt LaFleford. floor took over, I think in part because, all right, I just don't have to worry about this for a little while. So the choice you make on that side of the ball feels extremely important. So you can make sure that if you're spending a lot of your time and focus on offense, you don't think that it's kind of rotting on the other side of the building. That's, I mean, dude, I'm telling you, it's, it's so, it's so, like, so far the truth, man.

Like, it is, it is 100%. Like, when I say, like, these guys with these intentional hires of DCs, because, I mean, let's, why are they, why are they hired? Why are these offensive coaches hired in the first place? Because they're damn good at calling offensive plays. That's right. Everyone wants an offensive caller, okay? Offensive play caller. So their opinion, when they're getting interviewed for these jobs,

they're saying they're selling to the owner and to the gym, I'm going to hire this amazing guy, Wade Phillips for Shaw McVey, who has been a guy who knows what to do, who can just take the defense and run. And all these owners are like, done, love it, awesome. And I'm telling you, when, like the first few years, It's like, hey, you guys got the defense. We got the offense. Obviously, we're going to have these conversations back and forth.

But it is very true on that aspect. You think about all of the guys that are play-calling offensive head coaches and how many of them employ defensive coordinators who used to be head coaches. I'm telling you. Mike McDaniel with Vic Fangio. Even now Steve Wilkes with Kyle Shanahan, he was a head coach. Jim Schwartz was a head coach before he took this job. Rahim Morris.

was a head coach before he went back to being a defensive coordinator. So a lot of these guys who are defensive coordinators for play calling head coaches have experienced not just as coordinators but in overseeing at times the entire building, let alone one side of the ball, which doesn't feel like an accident. No, 100% not. I agree, man. It's wild. Last thing here, big bye week.

Got a lot of teams on by, I think like four or five teams. I love the bye weeks because it makes Sundays so much easier. The fact that there are six guys, games in the early slate. I'm like, ah, this is beautiful. I don't have to worry about watching 10 games. It's my favorite when we get a bunch of buy weeks. I could do without the London games every single week, but that's an entirely different discussion. So happy about all the buys. We hear so much about the tweaks and adjustments that can be made during the buy week. How much of that is real? I mean, like 5%. Like it's just like, yeah, I know. And when we were

talking about this segment, I was just like, we got to do it because. because there's so much made about buy weeks in terms of, especially like, especially like, buy weeks on week six or five, which are the worst buy weeks to have because you're, you might still just be figuring out who you are as a team. And some teams take a little bit longer. So you're going to self-scout, you're going to do all this stuff. And you're like, well, I don't know. I don't know. Let's run this play more. Like it's just, it, it's really is. And talking to coaches last week that were on by, that's kind of how it felt. Yes. It's awful. And it's just like, well, okay, like there's not enough. We have four games.

and coaches don't even like having breakdowns without six games or five games. And so I think it's just so overblown. I mean, it's awesome on the players because the players, for the most part, everyone I've been a part of is like, hey, see you next week. And every coach is different. They weigh the pros and the cons. But you look at Andy Reed's record coming out of biweeks, right? That's well talked about.

Well, he's like, hey, on Sunday, like you might come in on Monday, but Monday at 1 p.m., we'll see you next Monday at 1 p.m. Like it's like seven days off. And honestly, it's probably more for the coaching staff, too, to just like do their thing, to get a little bit of stuff. but all these coaches do is they'll go in and they'll self-scout and they'll figure out, hey, what's our weaknesses? Let's make them, try to make them our strengths.

Or sometimes there's been coaches that say, hey, this is our weakness. Let's just stay away from it because we're just not good. Like if we're in 13 personnel and we are just not very good throwing the ball, like, why even do it? I've been a part of staffs like that. But also it's like, let's self-scout and let's go in and figure out what we're doing. And it's very intensive self-scouts. It's like, all right, 11 personnel under center. we are 95% running the football.

And so teams get this because they do their own research too. And they're like, all right, well, hey, let's get 11 personnel on the first play of the game. Let's do play action bomb on the next week. So it's not as crazy as you think. I mean, there's a lot of reports. There's a lot of analysts. There's a lot of research that goes into it. But at the end of the day, when they report back, when we get back, like most of the

conversations go like this. Hey, we're in 12 personnel. We need to throw the ball more. Oh, okay. Hey, we're in, we're in, you know, 13 under center. We need to have like one play on it. Or like, hey, we need to get Keenan Allen the ballmore. No shit, you need to get Keenan the ballmore.

So it's like, and I'm not saying that they don't, but I think it's overblown. And I think most coaches that if they listen would agree with me on this. You don't think there are any epiphanies, really. It's more just that these are little tendency breakers that we have to throw out. We can lean into this a little bit more, more adjusting the dials than anything seismic. tendency breakers are huge. Like that's, but even in this early like week six, it's like, all right, you're just now starting to form tendencies and then you're on a buy. So then you play, you know, 10, 12 straight weeks. And you're like, well, crap. Like, that's the first thing as a schedule

came out that I'd always look at as a player. And I'd always think like a coach like, hey, when's our bye weekend? For some reason, it was always around my birthday. It was always like week four or five. And I'm just like, man. Like, can I get a week 10, like halfway through the season or week nine? And it never ended up that way, which was, which was, you know, sad. Did you go anywhere on the biweek or just rest and relaxation at home for the most part? When I didn't have kids, we would go somewhere quick. Like we went to Montreal. I have still never been.

It's, dude, it's awesome. Like the food. I've heard nothing but good things. Castles everywhere. Like, it's wild to me. We went to Montreal one without, but when you have kids, it's more like, hey, just spend some good time with the kids. Actually, like being a dad, right?

Like, just at like school drop off and pick up, like just being present. for your kids, cooking them dinner, making breakfast, all this stuff. Like, that's what I always wanted to like focus on when I got a little bit older. What's your go to cooking wise? Dude, I am such a bad cook. Like, like last night. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put you in that spot. I thought you were to flex a little bit. The more you know about yourself, the more you can grow. And so like, I know I'm not like an awesome cook. Like last night we had we we had I cooked chicken thighs. Okay. I made some rice and my wife made like some amazing like Greek salad. And, and I was like oh, I hadn't cooked in a while.

Like, I'm going to cook some chicken. It's so, like, how do you mess up chicken thighs? First bite of my wife? Oh, they're overdone. I'm like, how do you overdo like chicken thighs? Like it's just that. Especially thighs. Thies are hard to hammer.

I know. And I was like, man, I know. I'm sorry. I'm not the best cook. Listen, self-awareness is a huge part of the battle. I appreciate you know you need to get better. That's what's important. It's just about where you have to go.

There's no doubt. Chase Daniel, that is all we got. Really, really appreciate it. My friend, really enjoyed the conversation. Hope you guys did as well. Please, the lookout for all the other stuff that we have coming on the athletic football show this week. great episode of Prospects to Prosos on Wednesday. Brandon Thorne came on with the boys to talk about

a loaded offensive line class in 2024. So if you were a sicko and want to go listen to an hour on that, you absolutely can. Great, great episode of Kiefer in the Beats this week. Jordan Roderick coming out to talk about the state of the Rams. Sean McVease, psyche. A lot of interesting discussion points. Love the discussion that Zach had with Colton Pouncy about the Lions as well and Deshaun Reed did a great job giving us light on what the Raiders are up to. So please go check out those if you are not listening to those shows. For now, that is all we got. Like, subscribe.

If you are watching on YouTube, I need to say that more often and I'm trying to be better about it. But for now, that is all we got. Really appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.