The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - In The Pocket: Baker's resurgence, Josh Dobbs' potentially career-altering season, spotting a well-coached defense, and more

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

One month into the season, did you expect to be talking about Baker Mayfield and Josh Dobbs? Yeah, us too. Robert Mays and Chase Daniel dig into those two quarterbacks, the mess and Pittsburgh, and the hallmarks of a well-coached defense on this episode of The Athletic Football Show's In The Pocket.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Chase on Twitter: @ChaseDanielSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me today for this week's edition of In the Pocket. It is a long time NFL quarterback. Chase Daniel. Chase, how you doing, man? What's going on, man?

How you doing? Back again. Doing well. About a quarter of the way into the season. Feels like some units are starting to take shape a little bit. Some offenses are starting to take shape a little bit. Our understanding of the landscape of the league kind of settling in. still too early to make any grand proclamations. I was like to look back at other four game stretches

from previous seasons and how ridiculous they seem in retrospect. I remember, I can't remember what year it was, but I was at the ringer at the time. And it was the year the Trevor Simeon Broncos started 4 and oh my gosh. And I vividly remember writing a story about those, that Broncos team just being like, hey, the Broncos, Trevor Simeon, is this for real? The answer was, it was not for real. No. So still need to pump the brakes a little bit this time of year, but it's starting to feel a little bit better about what we're watching. Yeah.

I mean, that's what we've always said too is like it's usually, at least on offense. Defense, they always start a little faster, usually just because it's, you're reacting to plays. They have way less plays,

calls, coverages, stuff like that. But with offenses, it takes some time. And I remember that year with Trevor Simian, too, and everyone loves a feel good story.

But at the end of the day, you've got to look at like the bedrock of who you are and how it's going and I mean there's definitely been some crazy storylines to start the year some offenses still haven't got clicking some offenses are at like the best pace in the world with like two in the dolphins like so it's just it's too much I think within the next two weeks that's when teams really start separating themselves really start making a name for themselves finding their identity I mean take for instance the chargers started oh and two somehow Marraxley got the two and two and they have a buy week so they're going to dive deep

especially on defense say hey what are we going to do what's this going to look like how are we going to fix this what do we do good offensively let's continue to build that let's make our weaknesses our strengths and every team is doing that and that's the biggest thing is the four game tape right so when when you're facing a team if you're an offense and you're facing a defense going and i'm watching film on you that's like the sweet spot i usually watch four games and then that's really you can tell what they're doing defensively. That's when a bunch of these numbers start rolling in and all the scouts get nerdy and send you all this stuff that you don't need.

One of those stories that has snuck up on us a little bit is the three and one start from Baker Mayfield and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Strange off season, you know, they have this core of talent that they didn't decide to move on from. I thought a really telling signing that they did was they brought back Jamel Dean rather than letting him hit free agency. So you have this core players where it's like, there's a lot of talent on this team. And then they decide that Baker Mayfield, even though they hand waved at Baker Mayfield,

Kyle Trass quarterback competition, was the right way to address quarterback in the Tom Brady world. And I just didn't really know what to make of them and that plan. Well, through four games, they're three and one. And Baker Mayfield is actually playing some pretty darn solid football. He is sixth in the league right now, an EPA per dropback through four games, right behind Patrick Mahomes. Six. No. Some of that.

So some of that is there are reasons behind that. He's been insane on third down. So he's been the best quarterback in the league on third down. He's 31 of 39 with 21 passing first downs on third down. So there are ways you get to that sixth overall number. But the most important takeaway here is that Baker has been solid and the bucks I think have been much better, much more impressive on offense than a lot of people might have expected coming into the season.

Well, yeah, that's a good, that's a good call because I, when you picked Baker to come in after Tom Brady, it was a head scratch. It was just, like everyone thought it was a head scratcher, right? Like you got them on a cheap contract. You got them on a $4 million contract, backup money. This is his fourth team. But if you go back and actually look, and I did, if you go back and look at this last three or four games with the Rams last year, and his first four games,

this year, he's put together about a seven, eight game stretch. That's really impressive. And and that's, that's what I noticed a little bit, uh, in New Orleans on Sunday. And it was, it was, you know, I got, I'm gonna be like completely honest with you. I got a little bored watching the offense. And then all of a sudden at the end of the game, they put up 24. Yeah. And against a really, really, really good, like New Orleans team. And so, I was just like, well, he's not doing, I mean, there was some impressive plays that we can talk about, but he's not doing the flashy stuff, right? There's a couple scrambles and stuff, but two of the three touchdowns were on run plays. He just threw a fade, right? Like, you know, so, but he's making the

plays. And the biggest thing for me is he's not losing the game. People, people, like, coaches, coaches say that all the time. Like, if you can have a guy, and I saw the interview with, um, the, the, the Bucks GM today that Peter Schrager put out, which I thought was really cool. And just saying how Baker's just a dude, man, he is the guy. He's taking the O. Lyman to the Bahamas. He's doing this and that. I'm like, okay, like, he's fitting in well. Like, I don't know why he got sort of a bad rap. But it ultimately comes down to like your play on the field. And on, on Sunday, I don't know. It was, it was, it was a mixed bag for me. I was, I was excited to watch because I wanted to see what everyone was talking about.

And I think it has a lot to do with scheme. I think it has a lot to do with him, not making stupid mistakes when it's not there. He's thrown away. He's running around in the pocket. He's scrambling. He looks a little quicker than years past. But yeah, I mean, to have the bucks three and one,

I mean, consider me surprised because I had no clue that was going to happen. One of the most important things, if you're looking at his production this year, is the lack of negative place. Baker is somebody that took a lot of sacks at periods during his career. He threw the ball away a little bit too often. He's thrown two interceptions this year. He has the second lowest sack rate in the entire NFL this season. The only player who's gotten sacked less often than Baker Mayfield is Patrick Mahomes.

So them avoiding those negative plays has been hugely important. And I want to talk about the offense because I feel like they've done such a good job of creating this support system around him schematically that's really asked him to do what he's good at and kind of mitigated some of those things that maybe he's a little bit worse at. And this is Dave Connellis, we've never seen as an offensive coordinator before, and that adds another layer of intrigue to this. It's like, all right, let's open this up and see what we're looking at because this is his first stint as a play caller after coming over as the Seahawks quarterback's coach. So when you're looking at the offense and the way that it's designed for Baker right now, how do you think they're putting him in the right spots to succeed? Well, you know, I watched every snap of the New Orleans game. And what I came away with was, yes, I was bored watching them.

But then I go back and I think about after I watched the 65 plays, I'm like, well, that's actually not a bad thing. Like, you don't have to be Patrick Mahomes. You don't have to be somebody that's making all these flashy plays. So then I have to like, like everyone, like I'm becoming a viewer now. Everyone wants to see this flashiness, these crazy throws and stuff. He's just running the offense, man. And honestly, it's paid off. And that's something I noticed.

I had no idea they were that good on third down. but I picked it up in the game. He's making these throws on third down. They're not asking him to throw a bunch, just pure dropback on first and second down. It's more heavy play action. And I think that's honestly, like with a run game going, that's something that protects a quarterback

because you can have these heavy play action, two tight in, drop them up shots. And if it's not there, he's just checking it down. He's just moving the chains. And that's the biggest thing I think Canalus is done with Baker. He's put them in a position to succeed by not asking him to do so much on first and second down. They've been decent in the red zone.

They've been really good on third down. The money downs is what we like to call him. Those two downs, he's been really good. And even the two-minute drive before the half, he went down and got points. Like it was impressive to me. And I think that's the biggest thing is once you get into a new offense, a first-time coordinator as a quarterback,

you want to understand, especially if I'm Baker, like, I want to see how Dave Canales calls plays. Okay? and you have a four-game thing. Hey, okay, he's calling these plays on what I see and what I like and what I'm comfortable with. And that's the biggest way to protect the quarterback and say, hey, you don't have to go win the game every single snap.

Like make the throws when they're there. They got a really good receiving court. And you don't have to do too much. Take care of the football. Don't take sacks. It's day one football, but Baker's doing it at a high level. The formula that they have on early downs, I think, makes so much sense for him. When you think about where he was successful and how he was successful for stretches in Cleveland,

it was putting him in structure and making things easy on him. So the Bucks right now, the only team in the NFL that has used play action and a higher percent of their early down dropbacks than Tampa Bay is Seattle, where Dave Connellis comes from. And I don't think that's an accident. So it's been 44% of their early down dropbacks they're using play action, which is a huge number. That's huge. Yeah. Huge. Wow.

And so that is combined with them using multiple. tight ends, two or three, 12 or 13 personnel, on 44% of their early down plays. So what they're doing is, it's just heavy personnel, heavy play action, you're getting teams in base defense, probably using cover three because you're playing under center, and he's just ripping play action shots outside the numbers. So that is a perfect way, in my opinion, to use him in that situation and just say, listen, this is all we need from you. don't take sacks, take the throws that are there,

and then maybe you get into creation mode a little bit on third down. I don't know how long that lasts. It feels like there's a little bit of fairy dust sprinkled on what they're doing on third down right now. But the early down strategy and the early down formula, I think makes a lot of sense when Baker Mayfield is your quarterback, and you have some of the offensive supporting cast they have, which we can talk about. Well, and it helps them build us confidence, right?

That's the biggest thing in a new offense when I've been a part of, whether it was Chicago or New Orleans or even Detroit in a brand new offense. Like I just want to be able to know and to play and to get a few games underneath my belt, whether it be preseason or regular season, and just feel how this offense feels in a game because it feels way different in a game when you're going full speed, full reps, everything like that, than practice. Like there's no substitute for game speed. And so he's gotten these four games and he's got to be like,

okay, look, I'm playing well. I need to continue doing things well. And I think, you know, you said he was. really taking sex. The biggest thing to me was like he's moving in the pocket and he's getting outside of the pocket and he's running and he's sliding and he's moving. I mean, he made a throw in the game outside of the pocket. I'm like, okay, that's like what Baker does. Like get him out, get him rolling. He's not just some like pocket pass where he wants to get going. Now he's good in play action. I always felt good with play action when it's working because like you said,

you get base on the field and you're able to take these shots down the field and if it's not there, hey, check it down, move it on. And that's the biggest thing. And, and, The closest offense to this for me was the New Orleans offense. We were under-centered play action, first, second, down. Very little drop back, and on third down, we just, we came up with some cool stuff. Like, it was really, really cool stuff, and it attacked defenses, and we gained playing well. And it looks like that's sort of the formula right here so far for Dave Canales and the box. I'm curious, how does play action affect a quarterback's rhythm and timing?

Because it almost feels like it makes you play on time. You have the fake, you have the footwork, you hit the top of your drop, your head comes around, you know exactly where you're supposed to go. It feels like structure that can really lend to a quarterback who can get jittery when you're not necessarily putting him in those confines. Is that fair? So the biggest thing with play action for me is like when you're a quarterback and you're under center as an offensive coordinator, what you like to have is like a half field read.

Very, very few times are play actions reads full field reads. It's either, hey, pick and stick to a side down to your back or you might have post over. So you're still reading the left side of the field. if the over is coming right to left versus drop back a lot of times if you're in shotgun hey you need to read the defense obviously and maybe pick a side okay and if for some reason they're disguising and you pick the wrong side you're screwed get down down to your back so I think it just keeps you in rhythm that's what I always like like let me let me like let us get our run game our play action our screen game our draw game going on first and second down and then

in third down we're going to get in gun and it's not like they're just run run pass on third down it's like a pass. They're mixing it up really well. So I think that's honestly keeping defenses like, hey, all right. Also, like the second level defenders, when you're play action and you have the threat of running the football, okay, say you play action pass and those linebackers at the second level are running up. Okay, well, now they have to turn their backs to you as the quarterback and run back to their drop zones. Okay. So I feel a lot more comfortable seeing the back of, say, Fred Warner's head rather than him staring me down and getting a good feel on stuff, if that makes sense. It absolutely does.

And I think the understood way of using play action to affect linebackers, we saw this for years and years and years. And kind of the old Niners way of playing. The Niners don't use that much play action anymore, actually, which is actually kind of funny. But the way the Shanhan offense always kind of worked in older versions of it is play action fake, line blacker step up, you can hit throws over the middle of the field. You're sitting the second level. But the Bucks are doing it outside the numbers. And Nate and I talked about this a little bit on Sunday.

I'm curious, when you're trying to do that, when you're hitting that deep out to Mike Evans off play action, you're not trying to exploit an area of the linebackers are avoiding in the middle of the field. So how is play action giving you space in a design like that? Well, I just think it gives you time versus if you're a seven-step drop-back team and you're doing this off seven-step drop-back, it's ultimately going to be quicker because there's no play fake,

there's no hitch, there's no, none of that. So it just gives you a little bit more time to read and react. And honestly, he knows both of those, out throws like first of all you better have an arm to throw it and you better throw it early i thought he i thought he missed the second one a little bit and mike evans just made a good grab on it um but i think it's just like hey that's something like hey i'm gonna go back seven step drop and i'm gonna hitch up play fake and just let it roll and it's mike evans or no one like it's like clear as day it's a one person read and if it's there open cool if not do there so it simplifies the reads but it

also lets you um get on timing and in rhythm i don't think it really really affects the corners. I think it's more so you're doing this play action to get a shot down the field, whether it stacks or you're motioning out to these big outroutes. I think it's more of just a rhythm thing for the quarterback. It makes total sense. And you can see how in rhythm he's playing. The last thing I think is worth mentioning, talking about the sack rate. I also think a lot of the heavy personnel that they've used, it's helped in protection. Even if you're not keeping all those guys in and max protection looks, the amount of chips and guys coming across the formation to seal off the backside, they've just kept one or two.

two extra bodies in, even if it's only for a beat. And I think that's really helped him as well, because he's just dealing with less traffic in his face. Yeah, I mean, I think he definitely, he definitely understands. And the way it seems to me is like, yeah, those are great in all to have extra blockers and stuff. And it was, you could actually see it like getting really frustrating for Cam Jordan. Like he was, he was pissed off. He's like, man, all these neckets and bootlegs and you're chipping me, then you're doing, that's exactly what you want as an offensive coordinator is you want to piss off the D-Lyman like, oh, we can't even get home, whether it's quick game, play action shots. And that's the funny thing about it is like it's working. Is it

going to continue to work? You know, I don't know. But I think they have a good recipe for success until Baker feels very, very comfortable, which he already looks, but until he continues to grasp the offense even more moving forward. I also think that their offensive line has played better than I expected. Worf's has been unbelievable at left tackle. Like the level of comfort he's playing with already is remarkable. And Luca Decky's been pretty good at right tackle in his second year. And he had an uneven rookie year. So having decent play from your tackles and, you know, it's been uneven a little bit

up front and the interior sometimes this year. Cody Mock is a rookie Matt Fiver coming over from the Chargers. But overall, I think that their protection plan with this remade offensive line combined with the individual play of some guys has given them a better chance to succeed than I anticipated coming into the year. Well, and let's make no mistake about it. Like the offensive line loves play action. They love run game.

They love play action. They love screen game. They're not just dropping back setting against, you know, Cam Jordan letting him have his best pass rushments. Of course, you got to do that on third down. So it's also getting them into a rhythm and saying, okay, cool. Like our O.C is protecting us as much as Baker. Absolutely.

I think all in all with the play and the strategy in terms of how they're helping the offensive line, that's been a part of this. The last thing I wanted to touch on, nothing schematic, but just kind of, you know, cultural, like what this means, the stakes here for Baker. Like you mentioned, one year, $4 million to go play quarterback for the bucks. We got backups in the league that are making more than $4 million now. I mean, this is a true kind of prove it. This is your last chance sort of contract.

I'm wondering when you're in a locker room, can you feel that for guys where there's a level of urgency when you kind of know that this is their chance to really extend their career, turn their career around? Have you been around guys where that was something you could sense with them? Oh, dude, I mean, it's widely talked about in locker rooms. Like, if someone's balling out and we say, oh, you're on a contract year, no wonder you're balling out. You know, you're going to free agency. Now, it's different with quarterbacks, but every other position. Like, we had, we had Chinanoosu in L.A., and he was on a contract year, and he, like, he had played

okay, like, not bad, not amazing Kaleel Mack, six sacks in the game, but he was like, he was like a really good player of ours. And it had just been known through the year that, hey, we probably weren't going to sign them back because they had other plans and whatever. And he just started bawling. Like he got like six sacks in his last like seven games. And all of us after like the first two or three sacks, we were like, oh, bro, you're on a contract here, man. You're on a contract. I think it goes and gets paid by Seattle and then signed another deal with Seattle. Like it's just like, so those are definitely well known. I mean, not so much quarterback because quarterbacks are different animal in terms of like they don't want anyone to say anything to them.

It's almost like that superstition where the pitcher sitting by himself batting or throwing a no hitter on the end of the bench and no one's really talking to him because he's got a lot of stuff on his mind. It's sort of like that for quarterbacks, but definitely other positions. I mean, it is well known in locker rooms like, hey, man, you're on a contract year. We spent so much time talking about the guys at the top of the quarterback market, the superstars, what their contracts look like that we don't really spend that much time thinking about the stakes involved for guys. at the second level or even the third level. And that brings me the next guy I want to talk about here. And that's the start that Josh Dobbs has had in Arizona. This is a guy who was bouncing around different practice squads over the last few years,

got waived by the Browns last year, the moment DeShan Watson came back from suspension, ends up landing with Tennessee, starts for them in a playoff game, goes back to Cleveland this offseason and then gets traded on the eve of the season to the Cardinals, a team we think is going to be the worst team in the NFL to be their starter. And it could just be so easy to look at that, just be like, yeah, he's at end of the roster guy. Like, who knows, who cares? It's Josh Dobbs. Is it really matter who's playing quarterback for the Cardinals?

But the way that he's playing right now, he's potentially setting himself up for a completely different act, the completely different third act of his career. And I'm sure you know a lot about that. As somebody who wasn't a long time starter, you're really just trying to make the most of your opportunities. So when you're in that spot and you kind of know, I'm not. going to get that many chances to play, but I have to do everything I can to kind of breathe life into the second, third, fourth stage of my career. What is that like as a player as you're

trying to kind of make your way in the NFL? Yeah, I mean, his, his is like, I mean, Josh Dobbs, I mean, I do think he's playing exceptional. Like, he's thrown for 900 yards and four touchdowns, no interceptions. And it just, and he's honestly like a little bit of a different guy. Like, he's very out there. He's got TikToks. He's got like, and usually don't see that from starting quarterbacks, but ultimately at the end of the day, he's just himself. And that's what he believes in is himself. And I was impressed with how he played last year with Tennessee. And then when he got traded from the Browns to Arizona, I was like, well, okay, he's probably going to start, but like, how's he going to do? And then he's just like steady the ship.

And not only steady the ship, he's made throws. He's made plays. He's made Arizona in all of these games, really at one point or another that they played other than a few. And so when you look at a guy like that, like I have a very high admiration level for them because a lot of people don't know, like, all the stuff that he, and his, his journey's even different than mine, because my journey, like, I was undrafted and then honestly, like, spent four years with the Saints, okay, and won the backup job and signed a very, very nice deal in my first year in Free Agency in Kansas City with Andy Reed. And then from there, then on, the rest of my career, I was sort of always like the unquestioned backup of the team and one of the better ones, at least at least I hope,

in the league where Josh has been like in and out, he's been on a bunch of different teams, he's been the third string. Now it's been the starter and it's just like he's balling. That's why the crapshooter the position of like, you take for instance, Brock Purdy, right? Mr. Relevant, okay? Or like, and then you take Zach Wilson, who was the number two overall pick? It's just like, who would you rather have? Brock Purdy. So like, this is a Josh Dobbs type scenario where it's like, hey dude you're not only playing well for your team now and making a name for yourself but ultimately like the next he could play he's 28 right he's 28 year he could play for the next eight to 10 years as a backup and make two to five million a year like it's setting him up for life and now he's smart and probably would do

something make way more money with NASA and all that jazz um but i think it's just it's such a cool story because there's not a lot of these stories that happen like this where you just get a guy who have been just okay and then all of a sudden just let him play let him build his confidence let him get stuff going and that's the coolest thing to me is like i've been in a position where you're just trying to make it and then once you make it okay cool it just builds even more confidence and your name gets out there and you're well liked around the team and ultimately um around the league and then it also just just ups your ante for free agency like hey if hey just Josh jobs guy he can come in and not only like back up um somebody but he can go in for a stretch and win games

He goes to Cleveland, where Drew Patsing was their quarterbacks coach last year. He is now the offensive coordinator for the Cardinals. That's how the connection gets made. So that little stint in Cleveland and what he showed there and his grasp of the offense, I'm sure, was the reason they brought him in in Arizona. And now you have this offense in Arizona that's just vastly outperforming expectations, and it's actually pretty damn fun to watch. You watch what they're doing.

It's like, it's nothing crazy, but it all makes sense. Guys are going to the right spots. You understand what the plan is. They have third down calls where it's like, oh, that was nice. They had a play against the Niners. It was third and seven, I think. And the Niners would play a man coverage. It was a little bunch to the right.

And just like how thoughtful the route distributions were and this the stems that guys were taking. Marquis Brown runs a little crosser. Dobbs had some nice little two-yard completion runs for a first down. And it's simple football, but it's like, this is just good. Like, this is just well done. Well-coved. Exactly. And so he lands with this coach who's putting him in the right spot.

And now he's a guy who has made $7.5 million since he was drafted in 2017. Those are his career earnings. There is a chance if he keeps playing like this for the rest of the year. We get to free agency next year and he makes close to $7 million a year on his next deal. Look at the contracts that are out there. Heineke got $7 million a year to go to Atlanta. Jacoby Percette got $8 million a year or is one year in Washington. Jared Stedham, Marcus Mariotta, Mitchell Tribisky, they're all making $5.5 million a year.

So it's not, we don't spend a lot of time talking about this group of players in the NFL. But when you've had the career up to this point that Josh Dobbs has, there is a very real chance that he is having a life changing, life altering sort of season right now with the Cardinals. Well, there's no doubt about it. And you look at those guys like Heineke, Brissette, Jared Sidum, Marietta, Trubisky. And you look, and he's playing just as well as those guys played, right? but he's getting to do it on the field, an actual game action, whereas these guys, Heineke did it last year, of course, but Brissette, Stidham, Marietta, they had some games here and there, but not four in a row, and you might end up playing the rest of the year. You don't know what's

going to happen with Kyler Murray. And I think it's just, I think it's a cool story. Like, if anything, he's helping his case in Arizona, like, hey, like, until we find a new guy, if Kyler's not the guy or whatever happens or, you know, like, let me be. Like, so it's, it's not only like setting them up for life, but it's setting them up to be able to start different places. Like I think if he continues to play this way, there's going to be a team that's going to give them seven to $10 million. Hey, come in and be a bridge guy. And then it's another chance to be okay, cool, I played that. Let's go to the next. And it's just like, that's the cool thing about watching this happen is because I know the behind the scenes of everything going on. And he's got to

be extremely happy and extremely confident with the way he's playing. It's funny the parallels with the Jacoby Preset situation. He was the stopgap quarterback in Cleveland, let's call it that, in this offense for the same coach. He was the quarterback's coach, and obviously Kevin Stefansky's the play caller, but it's a very similar situation. So if you want to make some money as like a premium backup, go play in this brown sort of system that these guys are running right now. So I'm curious as somebody who's lived this life before. One, when did you kind of know, all right, I am going to have a long career as a backup in the NFL. What was the moment that it kind of clicked into place?

We were like, for whatever reason, the league, not for whatever reason. I know you earned it. But, okay, the league has determined that I am worth this sort of standing. Like, I have job security, even if it's as a backup for a long stretch. Man, that is a really great question. And it just takes me back. So obviously, it was undrafted Washington and then signed with New Orleans. and once I signed with New Orleans, I learned under Mark Grinnell Drew Brie's.

And then my second year, they brought in Patrick Ramsey. And they weren't going to sign Brunel back. And obviously, I was under contract. So they're like, hey, we're going to let you compete for the backup job. You know, I don't think there was like any indication. Like when you bring an event like that, Patrick Ramsey at the time was playing well and played for a while. It was like, all right, cool. Like nothing to lose.

Like go out and play. And then all of a sudden I just was playing really well on camp and had like a monster, 2010. preseason and and I'll always remember like it was those we don't get those three days before cut down day or after cut down day or whatever but it was like almost like you were in the building during cut down day which is the absolute worst and so you're like Sean Payton made us do a workout like at the whole team workout like 90 I think it was like 75 guys and we're cutting 20 of them and so I'm in the workout and I'm just like man I'm trying to figure out like all right am I going I'm going to go bench press.

Am I going to do like, and I just can't think. Like, am I going to squat? You're looking over your shoulder the entire time. Like you're half benching, but in actuality, it's like, where's my phone going to ring? I'm just like looking like that. It's not even the phone. Dude, that's the worst thing. They call it the Grim Reaper, man.

It's a guy who cuts everyone. And so I'm looking around. He's coming in. Dude, it's like the worst thing. I can't like, it's like he's pulling guys out, pulling guys out. And I'm on one of the machines. And it's all the quarterbacks lifting. I think Ramsey was lifting with us and went to the bathroom.

and I just said to Drew all, I was like, dude, like, what, like, tell me, you have to know. Like, what is going on, bro? Like, he's just like, don't worry about it. I'm like, no, I'm going to worry about it because I have no clue. Like, legitimately worry because this is like, you're messing with my life here. He's like, he sort of gave me a wink and I was just like, oh my gosh. Like, I'm still getting chills about it now because that was sort of the start.

And then so that was cool, was the backup for three years. And then my first, I think it's just like my first crack at free agency in 2013 when I, when I ended up signing with, you know, John Dorsey was the GM. Andy Reed obviously was the head coach for the first year. They traded for Alex. And the next thing they wanted was, they wanted me. And I was just like, wow. Like everyone knows about the prowess of the quarterback position and what it's coached like of the Andy Reed. And I was just like, wow, like that's wild to me. Like Andy wants me. So we ended up signing like a three year, $10 million deal in 2013. team, which three and a half APY back then was like amazing. And I had barely, I had not even started a game. It was all off preseason film and what I was like. And so that was cool. But I think, I think it's a long-winded question because you're taking me back, or answer, because you're

taking me back here and I sort of like it. But I feel like in 20, like, 2015, after my three years with the Chiefs, like I started playing really well. I really felt like I am the best backup in the league and I could be a starter. And that was the year 2016. the big, huge contract with Philadelphia. And so I think that's, I mean, even that long, I mean, that's like seven years into the league before I felt like I was really like, okay, I belong. And so it's just you never know.

And it's, it's what, Dobbs is six year in the league. So he's getting to a place where he like really feels probably he belongs. You took that kind of premium backup fringe starter contract in Philadelphia. And then they drafted Carson Wentz. in that moment, is there disappointment? Is there kind of an understanding I knew this was potentially going to happen? Like, walk me through draft night

or the moment that you found out when that was actually going to happen. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, we could spend the whole, we could spend the whole show talking about this. But it was, when I signed the contract with Philly, it was a three-year, $21 million deal. It was a richest backup quarterback deal

by far at the time of, in NFL history. And it not only was, was a backup, but I was told, my agent was told, hey, we're going to let you compete with Sam Bradford. I was like, okay, cool. Like, yeah, because it was Doug Peterson. He was my guy. They were new offense. Like, I'm like, awesome. And so the first couple days, we rotate reps. I'm like, oh, this is really happening. Like, I get the ones one day. He gets the ones. And playing well. And all of a sudden, it was like, okay, now you're just the two. I'm like, okay, something's wrong, whatever. And then it was just like a weird situation. And, man, okay, I've never told this story. It was a

a weird situation and when they drafted Carson was it two or three overall? It was two overall but they had made a move halfway up the draft. So they made, remember they made that move halfway to end? They were like picking it at 15.

They went to eight. It was that deal that they made with Miami. Yep. And as soon as that was happening, they're taking a quarterback, fine. So Carson comes in. He's the third quarterback. He takes all the three reps.

I take all the two reps. Sam takes all the one reps. And, um, Carson broke his rib or hurt his rib in like one of the first preseason games. And so I was like, okay, cool. Like, I'm good. Like, he's out for a few weeks.

Like, I'm good. Like, great. All right. And then all of a sudden, so we're in that weird time frame where it's cut down day, but we're not in the facility. My wife and I had driven up from Philly. We lived in Jersey. We drove up an hour and a half to New York City.

We're going to do a staycation in New York City. We were without, we didn't have any kids at the time. and we're staying at the hotel. I remember this. We get in on like a Thursday and we have to leave Saturday morning. We get on on Thursday. And everyone all of a sudden, like for 10 minutes,

it's like 4 p.m. on Cutdown Day for 10 minutes, my phone starts blowing up. And I'm like, what is happening? Like Hillary's like, oh my God, Chase. They just traded Sam Bradford. They just traded San Bradford. It was like a week after the Teddy Bridgewater injury had happened. It was a everyday weekend.

Yeah. And, and we were in New York and my wife's like, oh my gosh, like Adam Schepter's saying, like you're the starter. Like, have you talked to Doug? Like, what's happening? Like, and then all of a sudden, Doug calls me. Like literally as news is breaking, I'm like, oh, sweet. Like, this is awesome.

He's calling me to tell him he on the starter. And he just, he called and was like, hey, man, listen, here's a deal. We traded Sam. And, you know, in a roundabout way, we're going to move forward with, with Carson as a starter. I know what we had said, but we just feel strongly about Carson. I was like, deflated. I was just like, man, like this is the one chance that I had to become a starter and the team didn't believe me. Listen, I get it.

Carson went on in 2017 should have won the MVP. They won the Super Bowl. I get it. Like, I'm not saying that. But it was just an interesting way of how things had happened and how people find out is like, okay, for 10 minutes of my life, I was like, I finally get a chance to be a starter. and then Doug calls like, hey, we made the decision. Okay, I get like, listen, I get it. But it was deflating because I, you know, I didn't, I'm not like one to be like,

hey, I deserve that chance. I deserve that chance. I was just hoping for the chance. And it didn't come. It is what it is. But it was a crazy, I mean, it was a crazy like a couple weeks for sure when that happened. How do you think about it now? Do you still think about it?

Do you happy with the way that everything kind of unfolded from there? There's still a part of you that wishes you had gotten that opportunity? Yeah, I mean, of course. like that's the thing i i've made so much peace with the fact that i you know i started five or six games in my career and i've made so much peace um with it that like hey dude your chance never came because i mean literally like there's no starter that got hurt for a for a long period of time like i played behind really healthy starters and good like you never wish injury to happen um and i'm really happy with with a 14 14 year career but definitely always like you it's

it'll always be like, man, like I just wonder, um, not really like holding it against people, but I just wonder what I would have been able to do if I would have gotten six to eight games in a row to start and, and just really build on practice. Because I was always starting like one game here. Hey, the Thanksgiving game, the Thanksgiving day game against Detroit when I was with Chicago. I had, I had like 40 hours to prepare as a starter. Like no reps. We're not balled out.

Played well. Got to win. National TV. the Minnesota game that I played most of the game, Mitch got hurt in the game. So, like, there's not been a lot of these where you've gotten, like, two full weeks of practice to just sort of get into a rhythm. So I just always wonder, like, how would I have handled that if that makes sense? It makes a ton of sense.

I mean, I'm sure there's a push in a poll of, like, very lucky, made a lot of money, got to play in the NFL for a long time. But at the same time, people are competitive. You know, you want to see what you can actually do in those circumstances. So I totally get it. I remember that Thanksgiving game. I was watching it in my, we do Thanksgiving in Miami every year. My wife's family is from there.

And I always have to go to like a sports bar a little bit early because the drive to dinner is like an hour and a half. And the Bears, two years in a row played that early game on Thanksgiving. Like 1130. I'm sitting there on Thanksgiving in this like smoke-filled, just terrible sports bar and like near Fort Lauderdale watching you light up the lions. It was for whatever reason that will be burned into my brain for a long time.

That's hilarious, man. That's awesome. All right. That was, there's a lot of good in that conversation. Let's get to a conversation where there is a lot of bad. And let's talk about the state of the Pittsburgh Steelers offense. And what the hell is going on there right now? Couple numbers for context about where the Steelers are on that side of the ball.

They are dead last in virtually every single advanced passing stat that you can imagine. Okay. They are 32nd in EPA per dropback. they are 32nd and success rate. So they've been the least efficient down to down, and they have the worst ratio of high and bad leverage, high and low leverage plays. 20.4% of their dropbacks have gone for first downs this year.

That is dead last in the NFL. Dead last. The Bengals are 31st at 22%. So there's like an actual gap between where the Steelers are and where the rest of the league is. That's how bad they have been on that side of the ball. We have people calling for Matt Canada's job as the offensive coordinator. On a pretty simple level as we weighed into this, what the hell is going on there?

I have no clue. I watch two games. And it's so hard to point a finger at why offenses in certain offenses, especially this offense with Kenny Pickett, can't seem to get going. Is it good defensive play? Well, yeah, it is. is, but is it more so, it just, it just seems like everyone's not on the same page. And it seems like it, they look like some of the receivers and tight ends look tired running. Like I don't know their,

I don't know their like workout schedule or their practice schedule or if they're getting enough sleep. But when I watched the game against the Texans, the, the first thing that stood out in my mind was that like did just look tired not really super fast other than pickings and another thing is like well man maybe i picked the wrong game because the texans defense was flying around and was like there was to watch already gosh and they're just demico rinds has that unit rolling and it just is there's not a lot open and that's that's the biggest thing there's not a lot open is it schematics is it calling a certain plays on third downs? Is it what is it?

I have, I'm with you. I don't know. And I feel like they should be better. I mean, they were supposed to be better. You have a first round quarterback in his second year. You got some weapons. I know Deonti Johnson's hurt, but they've invested along the offensive line.

Roger Jones, who they drafted in the first round, came into this game, I believe at the start of the second drive, immediately gave up a pressure. But this is a guy you drafted in the first round. He's supposed to be your starting left tackle of the future. So parsing blame here is just really difficult. And I guess I can start with what you think the structure of the offense looks like. Because here's how I would frame it.

You tell me if I'm right or wrong. They use a lot of motion in their run game, right? So there's a lot of jet motion when they're trying to run the ball. When they're throwing the ball, it's incredibly static. Like, there just isn't a lot happening. They're asking these guys to win in some of these one-on-one situations, and they do not have the skill position talent. that would allow you to kind of dictate matchups in those moments.

So I just don't think that they're putting guys in positions to potentially get open beyond whatever the talent efficiencies are among that group. That's a really great call by you because the more I think about it, yeah, it is just like a static 2 by 2 or 3 by 1 when they're throwing the ball. And you're right. They are using motion pre-snap. It just seems to me like the offenses that I can't speak into specifically what's going on in that room, specifically Matt Canada installing the offense.

But the best offenses I've been on is that the past game marries the run game. And not every pass formation needs to look like a run formation. Or if you run a power out of a jet sweep and you run power, like have a power pass off the same jet sweep. There's, you know, and that's honestly like what Casey and Andy Reid was so good at. Like we'd have like 15 formations and we'd have four plays out of each formation that looked the exact same. And sometimes three.

He was like, hey, the power of three, like let's do a screen, let's run play, and let's have a play action play off the same formation. So it just looks the same to defenses and they're not able to just, hey, you know. And that's another thing too

is I've always been a big component of pre-snap, shifts, motions. That's how you blitz the defense. And if you're a defense and you're Damiqo Ryan's defense and you're seeing them, static. And it's so easy to be able to tell these guys watch film on defense. It's so easy to tell what you're going to do because you've put it on tape. You are who you are. Very rarely do you see a brand new offense just change in week four to like, hey, week six, we're running a brand new

offense. No, you have your core concepts. You have some stuff that attacks defenses on any given week. And that's just not what they're doing right there. They're not moving guys around. They're there. It just, and it just come back to what I said. I mean, it just looks, it looks like every other offense, if that makes sense. It doesn't look like it's innovative. It just looks like they're, they're having trouble designing schemes to get people open because when I look at it, like, it's hard for me as a quarterback. I'm biased. It's hard for me as a quarterback to put the blame squarely on, um, can he pick it when there's nothing open. Yeah.

There's just a lot happening at the same time. One of the things I thought was really notable when you go back and watch this game. He threw four passes between the numbers beyond the line of scrimmage over the course of the game. Four. Nineteen of his attempts in this game were outside the numbers. If you go look at the first half, every single pass that he completed for like the first two and a half quarters.

and this is not an exaggeration, was an out against cover three where it's immediately available to him and he's taking it or a checkdown. That's it. Those are the only two types of throws that he completed for an entire half of football. And there are so many examples where there was a play in the first half where he's got a high low down to the bottom and he's got pickings one-on-one up the right side. The high-low is there. He doesn't even look at it.

He doesn't even look at it. the one, and that's fine, you can take the one-on-one matchup to a guy that you think is a matchup advantage. That's what his game is. But it feels like there's no depth to the way that he's trying to look at the offense. And I don't know if that's the way the offense is structured. I don't know if that's the way the offense is being coached. It's impossible to know, but that's what it feels like, is that there's no trust and no intentionality behind how he's looking at what their passing game is against these defenses. Yeah. And look, there's always going to be that issue when you watch something. I've had it happen before on like you're like, hey, it's being coached. Like, hey, take this matchup, take this matchup. You take the matchup. And of course, like you look to the right to the right in film study. You're like, oh my gosh, that's wide open. Like I'm an idiot. Like why didn't happen? But it does seem like a little bit more often that this is happening. And it just come back to like at the end of the day, Kenny's got to make the plays when they're there. And you're right. It was like an out route fest. And even when Mitch Trivici came in, the first play was an out route to the right.

Like I was just like oh like there has to like there's got to be some other cooler stuff and they did some cool stuff on third down and can he used his legs a couple times a throw to his left to naji harris out of the backfield on third down was insane and honestly the throw to pickens that he dropped on the little like come in and go up on and on the in the red zone I thought was awesome and in pick in pick and is like pointing to the air hey throw it higher but it's actually perfect like back shoulder like catch it so there's a lot going on there that they're going there that they're going. better figure out and figure out fast. And then on top of that, the knee injury, like, how is that going to affect him? How is that going to affect him getting out of the pocket? Is he going to play? Is he not? You know, all that stuff is in the distance as well. It's good that you mentioned that because I think that the knee injury, and I'm not, I'm never saying it's a guy's fault that he got hurt. But the play where he got hurt, I think is very indicative of what's going on there right now. It's fourth and one. They run a high low to the left. He has the dig on the high low if he sits in the pocket. He bails immediately. He bailed, yeah. There were probably four, five, six times in this game,

where I'm not saying it's a clean pocket, but it does feel like he's got a beat longer than he thinks he does, and he's running himself into trouble. And again, is that bad pocket management? Is that a lack of trust in the offense, and you feel like you have to instantly go into creation mode? I don't know the answer to that, but the habits that he's developing as a result of that distrust in what he's seeing. It's a troubling trend the way that I see it. I don't know if you feel that way. Well, it just, he's got to figure out a way Kenny does to feel comfortable in the pocket. That's, that's the biggest thing for any quarterback to have success is like, dude, you're going to get hit. It's going to be a muddy pocket. Very rarely is it this perfect arc that we draw on film

be like, oh, look at this pocket. Like there's, there's green grass in front of you. Like, no, that's not the NFL, maybe 15% of the time. So he's just got to get something going. I have no idea what it is or what he needs to do, but he's got to have a better feel in the pocket. Maybe it is he's not trusting on his own line, and he would never say that. I didn't think they played horrible. Can they play better?

Sure. But it's just like at the end of the day, how do you try to fix this? And the question is, I have no idea. I would love to get some true serum and talk to the Texans defense about like three or four plays. There were two screens they snuffed out immediately.

Like immediately that were dropped for four or five yard losses in the backfield. There was a play where, Jalen Petrie absolutely erased Jalen Warren on a handoff. He took the handoff from him in the backfield. Is that, do you see something in trigger because of that? Is that just a player? For whatever reason, you were in the right place at the right time? Because it feels like they were on top of a lot of different things, a lot of different

even changeups that the Steelers were trying to do. Yeah. And that's, that just goes, I feel like, to Domeko Ryan's at the end of the day. Like, he's got that magic sauce and that. defense. And it's not like they're playing anything crazy. They're playing too high look and then they'll mix it up with the one high and then third down. They get a little crazy with it. But nothing too crazy. It's allowing his guys to play fast, but you can just tell it's getting coached really well. And they're telling them exactly what to expect and it's happening.

And certain defensive gurus like that, they do that sometimes. And it's just, it's impressive what they're doing in Houston for sure. It's simpler than what they did in San Francisco, but they're still some shit that they're trying four games in with a banged-up secondary, that I'm like, all right, there was a play, I think, on the first drive where Petrie's lined up on the edge, and then he buzzes to the flat, and they bail into cover two with him as the flat player on the right side. And I'm just like, okay, because I remember talking to D'Amico at the Combine, and we were just talking about, okay, you have this defense in San Francisco where you've been able to build on it and build on it because of the continuity.

You know, Fred Warner's been there for years. So you have these guys who just know this system in their bones. And there was a specific play, I think it was against Dallas last year. No, it was against Seattle. It was against Seattle on a Thursday night. I remember this vividly. It's third down. Fred Warner is lined up over the number one receiver to the right side.

So all indications, if you're the Seahawks, it's man, right? It's man coverage. And then they bail into cover two with him in the flat. And that play specifically, I was like, it doesn't seem like you'll be doing a lot of that with these guys who are all learning a new defense. He's like, yeah, that's, eventually you have to get to that point. But four games in, they've already been able to kind of throw some crazy shit against the wall. And when you combine that with just the attitude and the mindset, they're clearly playing with already.

I think it's pretty easy to get excited about which direction this is heading for Houston. There's no doubt. Yeah, we call that tricky too. It's like Fred Warner, I know exactly, because they used to do it. We prepared for it. And all indications are man. And you, you, that's something honestly, as a. quarterback you hate because like you have Fred Warner on a running back you're like okay it's man he's

he's all the way to the field and for some reason he's playing the cloud corner now in cover two and you're like you call it tricky too because it trick it trick dixom like it's just tricky too like this is and you're like no what are we doing it's just like the worst but yeah I mean you put that with the attitude effort like you said I mean this is going to be a scary crew yeah I like the the flexibility on defense you know they had petrie and war playing both in the slot and it's safety and that there's trying a bunch of different stuff, and it's been fun to watch up to this point. The one last play I wanted to mention, because I just thought it was hilarious. So the Steelers ran the little quick out cheat motion that Kyle Shanahan is calling it that the Dolphins do.

And when they ran it, they just ran like a crunch play, like a crunch running play, where it's just like a normal gap scheme run. So even when they're doing the most fun thing you can do in the NFL right now to create openness in your passing game and to create some separation, They just run a very simple gap scheme run that's not even almost tied to the motion. Like that guy was lined up so far outside that it's not even like he's pulling anybody out of the run foot when they run the ball. That to me kind of speaks to where they're at right now. It's like there's shit for shit's sake that has no bearing on what's actually happening. I totally agree.

I watched that and I thought to say, I'm like, why are they doing this? Like, what are you doing? So from that Texan's defense, it already looks like they're being well coached. This is where I wanted to end things today. watching the Bill's defense on Sunday and contrasting that with watching the Broncos defense the week before, where the linebackers are truly lost. For 60 straight minutes, the off-ball linebackers for the Broncos are just in absolute hell playing that Dolphins team. And then you contrast that with what Matt Milano and Terrell Bernard and really the entire Bill's defense looked like

dealing with all of those motions, all of the eye candy, all the confusing elements of that Dolphins offense. So I wanted to ask you as a quarterback when you're studying a defense, when you flip on the film, the week is going, when do you first start preparing? Tuesday? Yeah, like we'll start watching. I mean, we'll get a scattering port on Monday.

But most quarterbacks are like, I need a day to just decompress. So normally it's Tuesday morning like 8 a.m. All right. So Tuesday morning, 8 a.m. You flip on the first game you're going to watch a defense playing, whether it's situation or whether it's whatever game they just played, however you want to do it.

what are the elements that you first notice when a defense is well-coached? Like, what is the first thing on film that you can just point to and say, that's a well-coached defense? That no one's open. That's like the first thing. You think it's so easy, but it's true. Like, when I'm first watching a defense, I'm trying to understand schematically, obviously, what they're doing.

And not only what they're doing, but why they're doing it, right? That's sort of how I grew as a player is like, and then you look like after the first game, you get sort of get a feel for like what they do and it matches up with the scouts numbers. Hey, they're 40% cover two. Okay, what type of cover two are they playing? How are they playing it? 40% cover three. Okay, what kind of cover three? Weak rotation, strong rotation. What are they doing? And I don't, I don't really pay attention to that. I just like, man, like these guys are, there's just, there's not a lot open. And it can ease, it can be like even receivers on the outside or seams on the inside. It just seems to me like well coached defense. is, and we're going to dive into a little bit more, but the throw against a maybe not so well

coached defense could be maybe a yard and a half of separation. Okay. And you can see that on film, like, okay, like I can fit this stick route in there between the linebackers. And then where you go to a very well coach defense is they pattern match so well that it might be, instead of a yard and a half, it might be a half a yard of separation. You're like, oh, I don't think I'm going to take that there, right there. Oh, we better have really good schemes to scheme stuff to get open because certain defenses just pattern match well. I think at the end of the day, that's exactly what I'm looking at the first couple games is like, hey, how open are the guys? And eventually if they're not open, like, okay, you keep watching. They're like, okay, like they're cohesive. And they move as one.

And they don't do a lot of stuff defensively and allows their guys to play fast. I think all of those things is what I look at when I look at a well-coached defense. So describe pattern matching to people a little bit who may be a little bit more unfamiliar with it. Yeah. So pattern matching, I mean, I've never really had to explain this. So just bear with me because I'm trying to explain to people that might not know. So pattern match pretty much is like if you have certain patterns, say you have trips formation and you have just, just for instance, the two inside guys run stick routes, which is just a little five yard out routes and the outside guy runs a go ball. Well, usually like if I'm looking like, okay, hey, say you're in covered two. Nichols inside leverage between two and three. The mic is inside of number three. You're in a cover two defense. And in most of the times in cover two defense on non-well coach teams, the mic will just sort of turn and the tight end and the trip formation, the inside most guy is wide open. And the nickel sort of sluff off and it won't be it. When I say pattern match, I'm like they are knowing and they are seeing the quarterback take either a one step or a quickest three-step drop they can. And there's some. saying, I don't need to be in Tampa to. My Mike, my Mike Landbacker doesn't need to turn away and run out like it's some seven-step drop. No, they're reading the quarterback and they're seeing the vision. They're going from the quarterback to the, to the tight end, and they're coming in for,

like, try to pick it off. Like, it's not even wide open. Like, that type of stuff is pattern match. And the best guy I've ever seen do it on stick routes, Eric Kendricks. When we used to play in Minnesota, I would tell guys all the time, do not throw a stick. I do not care what you do. do not throw a stick route to him. And sure enough, he's picked, I think, I think we played him in 2020. He picked off Matthew Stafford on a stick round. I'm like, come on. Like, what are we doing?

To my untrained eye, when I watch these teams, they're just never covering grass. No one is ever covering grass. They understand situation, why the routes are distributed the way that they're distributed. So you're looking at, like, it's a high, low, for example. And we'll go back to the Bills game. So many different times, they're trying to pin. down the linebackers with either some of these sit down routes underneath or something flying to the flat.

And the bills understand, well, either by based on down a distance or the way that this team is wired, they don't want to throw that. That exists solely for me to be in this spot. And then you see them getting way more depth than they might against another team. And there's never a moment where it's like, all right, well, why is this guy sitting in this huge patch of grass when all the routes are being distributed over there? So that's the first thing for me when I watch a team. It's like, is there a guy that's just standing with nothing else around him for five yards in either direction?

And well-coached defense is that never seems to be the case. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly. I mean, I gave the really like football 5-0-5. That was like 202 and that's honestly easier to understand. It's like they're not just running to space. And of course, everyone coaches it. But you don't see a lot.

I've always said, and we've always said it in football terms is there's not a lot of on the defense. Like, that's what we would say. Like, there's not a lot of air in the defense meaning there's just not quite stuff open. And that's what well-coached defenses do. And I think it honestly, like, it starts with a how you, how the guy who is installing the defense, how he coaches it. And usually it's the defensive coordinator.

In this case, say, Texans, it's D'Amico Ryan's. In this case, the bills, it's Sean McDermott because he's calling the plays. and I think that is really interesting because some coaches are better teachers. Some coaches are better motivators. Some coaches are better with the team. Every coach is different. And so the teams I've always been a part of and always ended up worrying about was those teams who've had continuity,

but they don't do a lot of stuff defensively because they're really, really good at what they do. It feels like even if you're a team that just plays a lot of quarters, or you play a lot of like two high coverages, it's mixed up. It's like, let's say you're a cover 16 that like plays a decent amount of like a weak rotation cover three or whatever. Even if you're only playing a couple different things, what I don't always understand just because my football knowledge isn't to that level is the individual details within those certain coverages.

Like, yeah, you're playing a lot of quarters. You can play quarters a dozen different ways, right? And so when you're a defense or when you're an offense where you're a quarterback, there's really no understanding or knowing how they're going to play it on that specific play with the details that they've installed for that situation. And I think the teams that are really kind of honed in on those details as to like, all right, why am I doing this as the backside safety in quarters against this sort of look and how am I going to play it?

That really stands out. The Ravens are another team. That pick they had against Joe Burrow was just like, all right, this is perfect. He knows exactly what he's supposed to be doing as the backside quarter safety. this exact moment. Well, and I said this in our production meeting, but I'll say it here is like, I always thought that the Seattle three defense, the vaunted Legion of Boom, when we were playing there a couple times against them, was the most simple defense I had ever set my mind on and seen on film. And so you're thinking to yourself, like, how are they not giving up way more yards?

Well, most defenses will practice, you know, the certain plays of the week that say the Seattle Legion of Booms playing the Saints. And so they'll practice the whole playbook of the Saints and they'll continue to walk through it against cover three, cover four, whatever they're doing. Man, they might play third down. But what Seattle did, which I thought was really interesting, is they would, of course, walk through those plays that the Saints would have. But then they would just do a period or two where, hey, we're going to work. on every sort of play that hurts our style of defense because we only play one style and teams are going to scheme it up. So let's just, they might not run it this game, but we're going to

have a vast understanding and information of what works. I always thought that was the coolest thing in the world. Any other units from your career that you remember just flipping on the tape and being like, this is going to be a problem. Like this is going to be a hard week where immediately it was apparent to you that it was a well coach team you were playing. Yeah, two stand out for me, without a doubt, it's Mike Zimmer when he was with the Vikings and because of their pressure package and because of they were just a quarters shell team, but they could play cover two out of it. They could play quarter quarter half. Very rarely were they in single high. So it was really well coached. But then you get the third down.

It's that eight up package. It's that double A mug, two guys on the side, Harrison Smith. that was always probably the most mentally taxing week of my career every time we played them because they're just like, oh gosh, you've got to get ready for double a mug. And there were so many protection rules that you had to like work with. It was a pain in the ass. And the second one was Vic Fangio. And I was with Vic in Chicago in 2017. And he didn't do a lot.

Like probably over the course of his career, we'd have to look this up, but probably the least amount of pressure any defensive coordinator ever brought. Like, this dude just doesn't believe in pressure. And, but what he would do is he would play this quarters like defense and this, he would always like cloud the passing strings, play quarters away. And that quarter's safety on the backside away from pastoral who was always ended up robbing over top, almost like a cover two safety. So it was like this weird like coverage. Like if you didn't have an X receiver, your single receiver out of a tripside or a halfback that was really good out of the backfield, like you'd be in for a long day because there'd be five on three front side every single

snap no matter how you do it. And they'd be good enough up front to stop the run. So those two come back is like those are probably the toughest weeks to prepare. Think about all those Eddie Jackson pick sixes from that 2018 season or all those Eddie Jackson interceptions where he's just sitting there. I mean, you can envision it. He's like fair catching. He's like, oh, throw it to me. And sure enough, Jared Gough, that three interception game just kept throwing it to we'll have a lot of time. I want to dig into some more of like this offensive game plan stuff and like how you

start to prepare for those sort of moments. Like if you're going to play against that Zimmer team, but it's a long season. We'll have plenty of time to get into all of that as we hit all this stuff. For now, that is all we've got for today. Really appreciate you guys listening. Please continue to check out all the other stuff we have

on the athletic football show. Another great episode of Keyfer at the Beats this week. Dane and Nate on Prospects to Pros talking about Devon A. Chan, Bijaude Robinson, all of the rookies that have stood out so far. So please go check that out. For now, that is all we've got for In the Pocket. Appreciate you guys listening.

I'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.