The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - In The Pocket: Dak Prescott vs. Brock Purdy for MVP, Jake Browning's heroics, and more

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

What would you have said if you found out in August that Dak Prescott vs. Brock Purdy for MVP would be a major talking point in the first week of December? That's exactly where we are, and where Robert Mays and Chase Daniel begin this episode of The Athletic Football Show's In The Pocket. They also get into Jake Browning's MNF heroics and plenty more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Chase on Twitter: @ChaseDanielSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. It's the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me for this week's edition of In the Pocket. It's a long time NFL quarterback, Chase. Daniel. Chase, how you doing, man? Good, good.

Just, man, I can't believe it's week 14 already. It's like, I know we've talked about it even in week 10. We're like, how's week 10? But like, I mean, we're getting down to the end of the season, man. It's crazy. It's a different feeling when you're not playing than when you're covering. Because it just, it flies by a little. bit more. No same thing every day. Every day is different, which I've enjoyed. So it's, it's got some

good games this weekend, mainly the Eagles Cowboys game. I'm looking forward to that. Every day is different, but by the time you get to week 14, the take well starts to run a little bit, right? It's a little bit repetitive. It's always fun just to see the ups and downs and the vacillations of the season and who's important and who's not and what you talk about at certain times. I've done this for, I don't know, more than a decade now, and I still have no idea how to properly do it. And I think this year has been a pretty stark reminder of that. So we're going to dig into some bigger picture discussions today and some of the conversations that have come up really over the last couple weeks that are really native to the football

internet. And we're going to start with the MVP conversation and how that has changed over the last seven days or so. After the Niners did what they did against the Eagles, blew them up, blew them apart, I would say. Demolished. Most places you look right now, Brock Purdy is either. the betting favorite for the MVP or he is the co-favorit with DAC Prescott, which is something

if I had told you in September that those two guys would be the betting favorites for MVP on December 6th. I had a lot of questions. Each of them right now are plus 300 on bet MGM. Obviously, we still have five games to go. But I wanted to ask you this because I know you have really appreciated the way Brock Purdy has played, but you've also watched Dak a lot recently. If you were casting a vote right now, who would your MVP be among those two guys?

Among those two guys, I mean, look, it's no, there's no question about my love for Brock Purdy and everything that he's done. But if I had to cast the vote today on December the 6th, it would go to Dak Prescott. And it's hard for me to say because I think Purdy has played probably maybe a little bit better, but you're talking about most valuable player, right? the most valuable to the franchise. Like, I don't know if the Cowboys would be where they're at without Dack Prescott today. And I don't know if the 49ers would be that either, but I think if you lose Dack, this is how I'm basing it.

If you lose Dack, like, you're going to have a harder time, like, putting up the numbers that the Dallas offense is and being a 10-win team and all the things like that. And if you lose Brock, I still think they win the division. I still think they make a deep playoff run. Now, obviously, Brock got hurt in the championship game last year, so that's difficult to deal with. But, I mean, I love both of them, and I can make cases for both of them. But at the end of the day, for me, I would vote Dak Prescott. And just what he's been able to do this year, limiting the turnovers, the big play that he's

making time and time again when things aren't there when the pocket breaks down. Like he's fitting some of these footballs. I mean, I just rewatch the Seahawks game because it seemed like it was so long ago. We haven't seen the Cowboys in 10 days because I had to make sure. And they had 90 plays on offense. And that's a really good defensive team. Like make no doubt about it. And the Cowboys put up a ton of points.

And Dack was making probably some of the more difficult throws I've seen a quarterback make. And he's making him with ease. I'm not saying Brock hasn't done that because Brock is chucking the ball down the field. Like he has a very high AP like average yards per attempt. And but with with DAC, it's honestly a hard case to make because both of them are really valuable. But I think I'd go with DAC. I would also pick DAC. I've said that for the last couple weeks.

To me, the conversation around this is going to be fascinating when it comes to how we define the most valuable player. and this year specifically, because there are so many years where it's just blatantly obvious. Last year, the chiefs had the best offense in football. Patrick Mahomes was the best player in football. It's easy to make that connection. This year, it's a little bit harder to do. Those guys that we consider, those no doubt about elite quarterbacks, the top three, four, five quarterbacks in the league every single year, none of those guys is probably in line to win it.

So you have to squint a little bit to figure out who the most valuable player is, and you have to figure out what the criteria look like. And maybe this is too simple. But the way that I look at the DAC versus Purdy thing is just like this. If you put Brock Purdy in the Cowboys offense, would they be as good as they are with Dak Prescott? I mean, maybe? My answer to that is no.

Maybe? I just don't think they would. I don't think that Brock, because I think that DAC does so much work before the snap. And I think that he is so central to how that offense operates that it would be difficult for Brock Purdy to play at that same sort of level. I also think there's the difficulty of throws that Dak is making. You look at it, he leads the NFL and big time throws according to PFF, big time throw percentage, all those things.

And that's not the most important thing. But I think what he's been asked to do as a playmaker throwing the football in that offense is something that Brock Purdy would struggle to do at the same level. I think if you put Dak in the Niners offense, he would be able to do what Brock Purdy is doing or something close to it. And maybe that's unfair. And I've really stepped back and interrogated the way that I look at this Brock Purdy thing because I want to. I don't want to be dismissive because I think it's so easy to do that.

And I'll admit this, one of the hangups that I have with pushing it totally over the line and all the way to him being the MVP of the league and one of the elite quarterbacks in the league is that I can't really get over what the Niners offense looked like with Christian McCaffrey and Jimmy Garoppolo last year and the numbers that they were putting up. And I will fully admit, and I really believe this, and I've actually really enjoyed watching him play this year. There are elements of who Brock Purdy is that push the Niners offense further than it's ever gone before. There is a reason that they feel like this sort of machine throwing the football. They were in the top three, four in the league last year with Jimmy in terms of ePaper, dropback, efficiency, all of that.

They're dominating the league this year. And I think a lot of that is what Brock Purdy gives that offense. He clicks through his options very well. He gets through everything very quickly. I was talking to a coach yesterday morning who was played against the Niners several times over the last few years. And he was just saying that he gets through it so fast. And that's what Kyle loves about. He's always going to get to the right option.

And I think that's hard for people to see sometimes, but I do think it's a real strength and it does help them. Two, I think his athleticism is underrated. I think his ability to get out of pressure every once in a while to create just a little bit more than any quarterback they've ever had, gives this team a layer to their offense that they haven't had in years past when the answers aren't given to you by the structure of the play. So I do think he's doing things that have elevated them. I just think that his skill set and what he provides is less unique than somebody like Dak Prescott. Does that make him less valuable in this conversation? I don't know. And that's why I think this year specifically is so interesting because when you're parsing this conversation and

trying to untangle it, how you define these things is ultimately going to inform the answer that you come to. Yeah. I mean, and the thing with Brock, like I would push back on it a little bit because, you know, you've studied the film, but when you actually study it from a football mind, football coach, and that's, that's, when I, when I study film of people, I try to look at it, not from a media standpoint, even though that's what I am right now. I have a background in coaches film and how the coaches see it, how GMs see it, how players see it. And so when I look at Brock, like, I just think he makes it look so easy that guys are like, that people are like, oh, anyone can do it. And I would push back on that because that's the number one thing that I

see with Brock is how quickly he gets through it. So his, the mental aspect of the game, he's actually owning that offense. Like, I wouldn't say Jimmy Garoppolo necessarily own that offense. I'm actually seeing more and more now that Brock is getting to different audibles, that Brock is checking protections. So, so he's only in his second year, right? Like he, that's the thing about Dak. Dax in his eighth or ninth year and Dax had some other good, you know, years with them. But this, this easily is Dax best year. But like, I just make a case from like, dude, this is what Brock has has done from the get go in his first start versus Tampa last year. Like, dude through three times. Like it's just, it's not, I think because he makes it look so easy, it's an easy excuse.

And I'm not saying you're using it, but I know a lot of people are. It's an easy excuse to say, oh, it's just Shanahan's scheme. Oh, it's just the offense. Oh, it's because he has Trent Williams, Brandon, I, Debo, Samuel, CMC. That's awesome. And they built the offense around the quarterback. My pushback was like, you still need the trigger man to go out there and pull the trigger and to make the right reads and to make the right throws.

like I would say like Brock to me even on the even though DAC leads in big play throws like watch I've watched every single Brock pretty snap because I break them down every week I think it's just a fascinating conversation and when I watch Brock like I would say his intermediate to deep throw accuracy is better than Dak and it's better than what he's doing like these layered throws I did a segment on NFL network the other day and I was even like me pulling it back even though I've seen these throws and actually placing. four to five of these layered throws over top the linebackers underneath the safety's in the second level, the really 12 to 20 yard range. Like when teams are playing zone, I've seen so many guys and so many quarterbacks that are just purely scared to throw the ball over the middle.

That's what Purdy does. He's not scared at all. And that's what really takes this offense to a different place than it has before is that he plays with absolutely no fear in the ways that he's willing to push the ball. And I do think that they've benefited from that. Yeah.

And he rarely makes it. mistakes, that's what, that's what I like. Like, I would say like, Dak up to this point in his career, like last year, it was a turnovers, right? He was constantly turning the ball over. And some of those, the 15 or 16 picks, like half of those were tipped. It happens. Okay, it still falls into your resume. But it is an interesting conversation because, like, the way Purdy is playing the game, I promise you right now that other than about five or six teams in the National Football League, the other third, the other 28 would take them, like in a heartbeat. and just what he's being able to do.

And I think he would be successful in those offense. Like, I just don't think it's the scheme. See, that's what I'm not sure about. I think he has done, and I want to say, be clear about this. There have been times where I've been very dismissive of him and just said, half the league could do what he's doing in that situation. I believe that number is smaller than I did a couple months ago based on the way that he's played. What's actually very funny is, I think that the game he played against the Eagles

last week being the game that has vaulted him to the top of the MVP rankings is very funny because I think he's played, I think he has shown so much more in other games over the last six weeks than he did in that game on Sunday. There's 30 million people watching though, you know? Exactly. Of course. And that's how all of this works. He made some nails throws, three or four of them that were huge moments in the game.

That third and seven to I use. A third and seven, dude. The third and seven, like you want to talk about getting through progressions. Okay, I'm trying to explain. And I broke this down in detail. And I just want to let the viewers know from a quarterback. He's sweeping the board. It's a sweep the board read. Okay. You have an out route to Kittle. He's number one on the read, a little option route. He breaks out not open. You have a corner route on top of them, not open. Then you have Jennings coming in on a five-yard end. He gets to his fourth read to the field on third and seven against probably one of the top corners in the league. And it's not only to get through his progression quickly and knowing that he needs to get to his fourth read, but throwing an out route late to the field against one of the pro bowl or corners in the league and is able to have the arm strength and arm creativity to bring him downhill,

downhill like this. Like when I saw that live, I'm like, oh my gosh. I didn't really see he got through his four three, but I'm like, he's throwing it late. He's throwing it late. Oh my gosh, great thrill. Perfect. And that, that, that like helped them get rolling. But I just, you know, I'm glad you brought that up because that third and seven throw was insane. That was against the blitz. They brought five. It wasn't like an overwhelming blitz. I think it was just like five down linemen, which the Eagles do a decent amount. But they brought five on that play. And what he has done against the Blitz this year, to me, is one of the areas that he's really stood out, because it's not necessarily within the structure or something schemed up. He's finding where he needs

to go with the ball. They are number one in the league and EPA per dropback against five or more rushers by far. There's a bigger gap between them and the Chargers at number two than there is between the Chargers and the Eagles at 11. And that's how good he's been in those situations. And I think that's really where he shined. I think that the number of people who could do what he's doing is smaller than I used to. I still think that if you dropped him into a different offense, I don't know how well he would play. I truly don't. And is that because of his skill set or because of you like, you think that the offensive scheme that he runs is so good? I think it's he, his skill set is tailored to do very well within the offensive scheme that they run. And I don't

think he should be penalized for that. Just because I don't think he would be a top 10 quarterback and all these advanced metrics that we have or a top eight quarterback, whatever number you want to throw on it. If you dropped him into the Raiders offense, the way that Jimmy G was, or any sort of mediocre offense, should that discredit how well he's running the system that they're using right now? Because I don't know how many guys could do it to this level. So that's why it's so interesting to me. Should the MVP be given to a person who is running his system the best, even if he couldn't do this hypothetically, in worse circumstances? Or should we play the game where if we swapped those two guys, one would do just as well as the other in the nineer circumstances,

and Purdy would do worse if he was dropped out of the Cowboys, in my opinion. I don't know the answer to that. That's why this year in this discussion, I think is so interesting. Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing, like, I go back to it. And there's some other, like, Jalen Hertz is up there. Do I think he's the MVP right now? No. And there's some other quarterbacks. But in my opinion, it's a one-two race right now with DAC or Brock. And I just have to remind myself and remind viewers that MVP, the most valuable player, forget everything we're talking about. At the end of the day, these voters are going to vote for the best team and it's probably going to be the quarterback if he has good numbers on that team. It's a quarterback award. That's just what it is. That's what it is.

So if DAC ends up going and they get the one seed, like he's probably going to win the award, bro. Like bottom line, like he's America's team. It hadn't happened in a long time. Okay. Did Tony Romo ever win an MVP? No, God, no. No. No. So when was the last, I mean, that would be, I have no idea. and this is totally unscripted. I'll be interested to know the last time a Dallas Cowboys quarterback, if ever, has won the MVP because they're America's team. Make no mistake about it.

If Dak goes and gets the one seed and they win against Philly this Sunday, like he's going to be their front runner and it's not even close. Now, if Purdy were to go up there and they're able to get the one seed and they run the table, he's going to win the award.

Like it's not going to be CMC, it's not going to be Debo, it's not going to be IU, because I mean Trent Williams, like all these, people out there on all these talks shows are saying well he's not he's the fourth most valuable person on his team bro what just because he's the fourth best person on his team at his position doesn't mean he's the fourth most valuable but like yeah yeah i i'm with you on that by the way there's only one dallas

cowboy ever that is one yeah who emitt smith no dallas cowboys quarterback has ever one MVP so could you imagine like the voters in america in football in general like a dallas cowboy's quarterback has never won the MVP. Bro, if they're even the one or two seed, the way he's playing, he will win it. It will happen for the first time in the history. Like, that's going to happen for sure if they're the one or two

seed. No doubt. The two things I just keep coming back to, whether they're fair or unfair, is the Jimmy thing. It's hard for me to get over. It's still going to take me so long to get over after watching that offense last year and what they were. And just that in my mind, because we have the example, I think that's why it's difficult

for me. If there wasn't that point comparison where they were elite with a guy who looked awful on the Raiders this year. It's just, it's something that I feel like there's a gap there still for me. And then with DAC, and again, it goes back to the, if you swapped them, what would the answer be and what would the results look like? Whether that's fair or unfair, those are the two things that continue to be the hangup for me. And I think they'll continue to be.

And part of me just hopes that Dak continues to play at this level and it makes it easy for everybody as we get to the end. Oh, 100%. Well, here's, and this isn't scripted, but I have a question. view because I know you're like really into like breaking down everything if if if if sorry if the Dallas Cowboys and Brock Purdy um and the San Francisco four and I was like Dak and Purdy if they both fall off and they get you know they just don't play as well down the stretch like who is your dark horse MVP that could actually set up shop to like go and win it because I'm always interested to hear like

of course it's Dak and Purdy those are the favorites and don't tell me Jalen Hertz because I don't think he's going to win it. Who would you love to see win it? Because we talk about all these quarterbacks. Is there someone else? Is there a different position? Do you have someone else in mind? What's your thoughts on that?

I think that if the Ravens go on a huge run and they win out potentially, I think that Lamar could be in that conversation. Lamar, going back to, we did the midseason awards, like week 10 or so. And we were talking about the MVP. And at that point, I gave it to Josh Allen because I thought that Josh Allen was playing at extremely high level. they were unlucky on offense. It was a lot of turnovers, and it was so muddled.

And if you looked at a lot of the metrics and again, just eye test with the way that he was playing, in my mind, I was like, I think that guy is the most valuable player in the league. Like, their offense has still been really good and he's so central to their success that I would be tempted to give it to him. I think that has since changed in large part, not because Josh Allen's playing worse, but because of what DAC has done to rise in this conversation. But the other guy I mentioned in that discussion was, I was like, I think Lamar is, playing about as well as any other quarterback in the league, but the numbers aren't there. Like the passing volume and just some of the counting stats that you need, I thought the process

for him, game in and game out, was so incredibly strong and the level that he was playing at, but there were just a couple things where like, eh, he doesn't cross, he doesn't clear the bar in this, in this area to get there. So I think that he's still playing at a super, super high level. And if one or two things shift, is he going to be in that conversation? And then the other guy I would say, and I just don't think it's ever going to happen. I don't think it should happen in the modern NFL. But Tyree Kill's name should be mentioned when we discuss this. 100% because of the year that he's having.

Yes. Like he's going to have 2,000 yards. He's going to get it. Like, McDohs is going to get him 2,000 yards. And it's never been done before. Like, he's going to upset the record, dude. That's what it is. Like, the MVP is a quarterback award.

Like, it just is what it is. It should be. Because I think it's hard to be the most value. player if you're not a quarterback. And it's the most important position in all of sports. Like at the, we, we, we know we agree on that. But yeah, I mean, I'm glad you said Lamar, because I do, I think Lamar needs to get his flowers. And I do think that he just plays in a market, right, Baltimore. Like, you don't, you don't see him on national TV every week. We haven't seen him in a week. We saw him last time against LA and he put up 150 yards passing. But I do think,

like, his overall, like, body of work, right? And if they keep winning and if they're able to sweep out get the one seed, like I do think he needs to be in the conversation for sure. Two guys that had huge questions about their offensive infrastructure coming into the season, Lamar Jackson and Doc Prescott. Lamar, they go out and get Todd Monk in. And this is kind of a, hey, we're going to get you some pass catchers. We're going to get you a modern offensive coordinator. We're going to pay you $50 million a year.

What do you have now? Lamar's answer to that has been about as good as you could have hoped for if you were a Ravens fan and a member of the Ravens organization. Same goes for Dak Prescott. Mike McCarthy comes in to overtake play calling. Dak is up for a contract detention this offseason. There are real questions about like, okay, this thing that we've built with Mike McCarthy, Dak Prescott at the helm, how far can we take this thing?

Are we going to run out a road for this current model of who the Dallas Cowboys offense is? And for Dak and Mike McCarthy to rise to a completely different level and kind of shatter the ceiling, at least temporarily, it don't matter until they do it in the playoffs. But at least right now, they have shattered the expectations in the ceiling for what this offense can look like in the short term. And I just think that's so cool when you have these guys for whom there are real questions. Lamar's offensive coordinator got fired because they hit a roadblock.

Dax offensive coordinator got fired because they hit a roadblock. And for both of those guys to come through this year and show us a new, improved elevated version of themselves as passers. It's been one of my favorite things to watch in the league this year. Yeah. Yeah. And I think with Lamar, too, like people forget, he got so much scrap, man, about how he didn't have an agent and how he's holding out and how he was doing it himself.

And now look at it. Like, it was all worth it, man. It was all worth it. And then you go to the other side of the spectrum of what you were saying with Dak, mark it right now. Wednesday, December 6, Dak Prescott will be the highest paid player in NFL history coming this offseason. It's going to happen.

He's already, I don't care what he's done. He's played into it. he's up for a contract extension, he's going to be the highest pay player. He is. Would you feel comfortable giving that contract if you were the Cowboys? Yeah. Yeah, I think he's showing it. I think he showed it.

Okay. I'm with you on that. In two years, would you be comfortable giving him that contract if it would you be comfortable giving Brock Purdy that contract when he's up for it? Oh, I mean, you know, I don't know. I don't know. That's a great question. I think that he has to continue to prove.

If he continues to prove that he's within that system and is able to do that, yeah. Yeah. think that's how quarterback contracts are going. Shoot, by the time Brock Purdy's up for a contract, like they got him, he's got to be making less than a million dollars, right? Oh, yeah. He got him on such a steel. It's like 700 or something.

But could you imagine like going from $750,000 to, I mean, in two years, the highest paid contract will be $60, $62 million for a quarterback? Brock Purdy going from $700,000 to $60 million. I'm here for it. Do you think that your hesitation in that answer compared to how you answered for Dak should play into how you look at the MVP race right now. No, and Dak has eight years of body of work and proven time and time again that he can in some years carry a team no more better than this year. So I seen what Dak has done over a

seven, eight year period and he's already been paid and he's a Dallas Cowboys. Jerry Jones loves to pay pay guys. Like, let's just be real. He's going to get paid. Now with Brock, we have, I mean, how many games did he's played 20? total, 22, maybe something like that. So maybe less. The sample size, yeah, maybe less. The sample size is a lot less. So I need to see a whole other year.

I mean, dude, he's, okay, it might be hard for me right now to answer that. But if they go on to an NFC championship game or maybe even win a Super Bowl in the next years, he's going to get paid. Like, he's going to get paid. The sample size is too small for me to say that right now. I'll be fascinated by everything that happens when we start talking about. Would you imagine, though, like the haters, because Brock Purdy has a ton of haters. Could you imagine the haters out there and all the clowns that would say, you just paid Brock

Purdy $60 million? Like, it would go on forever. Like people would be besides themselves. Because it's literally, the thing about Brock, that's so fascinating to me as a player and as a evaluator of talent and knows what I'm seeing is you draw a line in this end. 50% are going to hate them and 50% are going to. 11. There's no in between, dude. There's really not. And it's like,

that to me is crazy. I'm trying to exist in the in between. That's what I'm trying to exist. Bro. Like, okay, 49 and 49 and a half and you're the 0.5% right in the middle. Because I really do appreciate a lot of the things he's done. But I think some of those bigger questions, I don't think we should ignore. And I know you would pay him. But I think a lot of other people, when presented with that, coaches that I've talked to other people, they're like, would you give that guy $55, 60 million

Is that the level that he's playing at? Is that how central he is to his team's success in the long term? I think there are more questions about that than there would be for the top seven, eight, nine quarterbacks in the league. And I think that that slight hesitation and that doubt should that color the way that we're having this discussion? And I don't know. I really don't know.

And I think that's why it's been such an intriguing discourse discussion conversation over the last year and we'll continue to be. What would he have to do to not only get you to be a full, because I know you believe and you're still in the middle. Like, what would, that's my question. I believe he is running the offense extremely well. I, it's hard to say because I almost think that you would have to take away some of those pieces just for me to understand what he is in different circumstances. But that's not possible, right?

Like, we're never going to see that. And in the whole, in the whole point of an offense and a team to build around the quarterback, like, I don't care who you are. If you don't have good players around you, you're not going to win. You're not going to put up good numbers. Like, you're only as good as the 10 other people around you, right? So like my question to maybe not you, but everyone, it's like, how you? Yeah. Well, because that's give credit to John Lynch and Shanahan for doing that because they're building it the right way.

I just think that what they have built there is so dominant and is so hard to defend that it's difficult to properly understand how much the quarterback drives that success. And again, I go back to what they looked like in that very small sample with Jimmy Groplo last year after the McCaffrey trade. All of the different levers that they can pull. I think that's the problem. and if they do end up paying him $60 million a year, can you afford all of those other pieces? What does the offense look like when that contract gets handed out? And if the other things start to deteriorate, if you can't afford to keep a Brandon IUC hypothetically, if you have to let go of Adibo Samuel because you pay IUC next year, all of those hypotheticals

that are waiting one, two, three years down the road, what does he look like in those circumstances? Do the Niners want to find out after giving him that contract? We've got some time before we have to tackle all of this, but because the MVP conversation has been so naughty this year, I find myself defaulting to some of those conversations and some of those big picture questions in order to untangle this a little bit. All right.

Let's get from some of the best starting quarterbacks in the league this year to what has become a pretty big story, and that is all of the backup quarterbacks that have played this year. I almost didn't talk about this with you today, and you're the perfect person to talk about this with. I have a guy who is the quintessential NFL backup quarterback for a decade and a half for all these different teams,

and we are in the year of the backup quarterback. Doing some quick back-of-the-napkin math this morning, I counted 12 teams that will start their backup for multiple games this season. They have or they will by the end of the year because of new injuries that have cropped up. That's a massive number. A third of the league is going to start a backup quarterback

for multiple games this year. And results have been mixed, right? The Jets have been awful, no matter who the backup quarterback has been. Josh Dobbs had some really good moments from Minnesota, for Arizona. Jake Browning just won AFC offensive player of the week based on how he played against the Jags. That game was a fascinating experience. I settled in for that game. I went out to watch it.

Sometimes I just like to get out of the house. There's a little bar next to my place. And I go sit down, have myself a non-alcoholic beer and just be in a public space after sitting at home forever. So I'm sitting there watching the game and I'm just thinking, I'll watch that, half watch this and just sort of process it and go home and go to bed. And I'm watching the game and he's playing incredible. And it becomes this back and forth game. And then Trevor Lawrence gets hurt and my phone dies. And I'm like, oh my God, I can't, I don't know what's happening.

I don't know what's going on. But the game is so good and it's so close that even though I'm two minutes from home, I didn't want to leave. So I'm glued to this television and my phone's not working. And I'm like, is Trevor? Did he rip apart his knee? What happened? And I'm like stuck in this chair. And eventually it gets to overtime.

I rush home, park my car and like run to my TV to make sure I'm set up for overtime. It is the exact opposite experience that I thought I would have watching Jake Browning play against the Jacksonville Jaguars on Monday night. Yeah. I mean, you and a ton of other people because I mean, even me, I was like, you know, I picked the Jaguars to win. I thought that they were playing really well. And then you just really look at Jacksonville's home record. And you're like, man, how are they not? Like everywhere but home, they're 6 and O.

Like London, everywhere like that. But like with Jake Browning, it's such an interesting conversation. And, you know, I hate to bring it up. So my question for you here is why is Jake Browning able to do that as a backup where some other guys haven't been able to run a functional offense? Like, what is the gap in your opinion for why some teams have been able to succeed with Jake Browning and with a backup quarterback in there and why some teams have had no shot? Yeah.

I mean, my thing. about the fascinating thing about Jake Browning is, you know, I tweeted when Joe Burrow went down, the whole backup quarterback like situation. Like I'm like, teams need to pay backup quarterbacks and they, what are they doing? The Bengals have a great, like, unit. They've built around Burrow and then you're one quarterback away and your guy gets hurt and now you're no longer going to the playoffs. Like, I was like crazy. The tweet got like three million views and everyone thought I was like really just talking about Jake Browning. And you just, you just wanted to get like two and a half million a year from the Bengals. That's all you're trying to say here. I mean, dude, at the end of the day,

like, if they would have called, I probably would have, you know, picked it up. But like, I actually retweeted that out and just said, hey, I'm sorry, Jake Browning. That wasn't meant for you. And it was like hilarious because I'm like, I'm not necessarily bagging on Jake Browning, but to your point, like, I think that certain backup quarterback succeed at a higher rate than some others because of the pieces that the coaching staff puts around them. Okay. And the thing about like, just take for Jake Browning. Talk to him. First of all, like, he played the game of his life. Like, like, make no doubt about it.

I don't know if he can do that again. I think the ceiling is there. I think everything came together on a perfect night in Jacksonville for him to be successful. The second thing that I thought about Jake Browning was the first thing that popped in my head was, man, he just probably got three to five more years. as a high paid backup. And maybe it like for one game, that's just how it is. Like that's how it is. Like it's just, you know, that's what went into my head.

And the third thing was when I think gets to the conversation that you're asking about is that the staff and the offensive play callers and Zach Taylor were finally able to understand what Jake Browning does well. Because quite honestly, it's not the same things that Joe Burrow does well. And I think they finally took a little bit of time, took some practice, probably took some hard conversations because they hadn't won in a while and probably some like, hey, do you like this on the call sheet? Do you not like this? And probably had to change their offense up a little bit to fit what he likes. And I've seen teams in the past do that with backup quarterbacks and just

say, hey, look, we really want you to be comfortable. Like what can we do to make you comfortable? Because if you're comfortable and you're confident in the game plan, then we're going to be successful. and I've seen some teams that haven't done that, and the backups have struggled. So I think that's the biggest thing is like when your starter goes down and you're playing a backup quarterback, first of all, you hope you have the right one. And quite honestly, like I don't care about preseason. I don't care about practices until a guy gets into a game with the starters and the starting offensive line and the starting receivers and you're going to be able to see what he does, like you don't know about them.

You don't know if you have a good backup or not. And I think that's why I was able to be so successful in the league is because when I got called upon, I played well. And that's what Jake Browning did. And I think just, I think that offensive staff for Sincet, like, you've got to give him credit because what he probably just did some things through the first couple starts that they were like, oh, hey, you know, we probably need to stay away from that. And we need to get back to what Jake Browning does well.

And I hope he can continue to play well. But I think that's overall is you got to surround them with the right plays, the right concepts, and the right play calling. So Jake Browning in that game used play action of 31% of his dropbacks. I don't know, I don't have the stats in front of me. I'd be surprised how many games Joe Burrow has ever hit that as the starting quarterback of the Cincinnati Bengals. And that's a lot of the preference of Joe Burrow.

Early this year, they weren't doing it because he couldn't move. When he got back healthy, they were starting to lean into it more than they ever have, whether it be under center play action, shotgun play action. And so I think that it's a small gap than it would have been over the last couple years when they were a lot of shotgun-based offense. But I still think that there were elements they could lean a little bit heavier into with Jake, kind of that put guardrails around the quarterback that they wouldn't necessarily do with Joe. That being said, to me, the number one thing that jumps out is that Jemar Chase is insane. I was going to say, the Jemar Chase is insane. And so I think that becomes a larger conversation.

It can go back to what we're discussing about Brock Purdy. And it's come up in a couple conversations I've had with some coaches over the last couple weeks where it just really feels like we're in this golden age of needing to have game changing playmakers for so many different reasons. And I just think that it makes the game easier on your quarterback. You can sustain quarterback injuries when you have some of these guys. You can not pay your quarterback quite as much. There's so many different examples of where this type of player, having one, two, three of them in your offense just makes such a huge difference. And I know Garrett Wilson is playing for the Jets, but the Jets don't have the well-rounded playmakers that this team has. And so I think that the playmakers aspect is one thing. And I think that it's really a chance for some of these staffs to shine.

And I think the Bengals coaching staff has honestly been really underrated over the last couple years. In the evolution we've seen from them and the consistent tweaks that we've seen from them, there have been some ups and downs and there have been some moments where I think people are really frustrated with Zach Taylor. And I can understand that. But I think overall, they've done a really good job of understanding what they needed their offense to be in certain stretches, in certain years, in certain situations. And I think this Jake Brown example is another good reminder of their ability to do that. And the same goes from Minnesota, right? Even without Kirk Cousins, even without Justin Jefferson, the infrastructure that we see there is so incredibly strong. And I just think this year in so many different examples, whether it's teams in transition.

like the Rams and the Packers, or teams dealing with backup quarterbacks, teams that just have an imperfect set of circumstances, how important it is to have the right offensive ecosystem in place and where that can take you, to me, the backup quarterback example is just one more place where we've noticed that this season. And I completely agree with you.

I was going to say Minnesota staff needs to get a lot of credit because what they were able to do with Dobbs and such short notice, I know that story's sort of drawn out. But another thing is, like, make no mistake about it, the guys who have had success this year have, the backup quarterbacks that have had success, have had really young, innovative, creative head coaches that are on offensive side of the ball. And I don't think that's a mistake at all. And I think that's why I tend to, and yes, I'm an offensive player, yes, I was a quarterback, but I tend to really love those young,

innovative offensive head coaches for a ton of reasons. One, they're really good communicators most the time to the team, and I think that's very important. And two, if the most important position in sport is quarterback and your starter gets hurt, you have a young, innovative offensive head coach to go in and pick the backup quarterback's brain, the most, now the most important position in all of sport, because most teams see their seasons die if their starter goes down. And what I've seen and when I've been a part of is these young, innovative offensive head coaches, they just have a way to talk to the backup for whatever reason that just makes sense to them. Who are you thinking about when you're saying this? Who's in your mind as you're saying this?

Well, I mean, like Zach Taylor, like Zach Taylor with Browning and KOC with Dobbs. And like even when I was in Chicago in 2018 and played like Nagy was our offense was rolling then. He comes from Andy. He comes from Andy Reed. Like those type of players and you look at the others across the board that have struggled, specifically all the Jets guys. Nathan O'Hackett, okay, you can say whatever you want about him, but he's not the often, he's, you know, he's an offensive coordinator. And I think there is something to be said about having the head guy be an offensive guy to just really empower you as a backup quarterback, if that makes sense.

It's a little bit hard to understand if you're not in it. It totally makes sense. I think, I remember talking to Mitchell Schwartz about this, how being on the chiefs and just having Andy be at the center of it just changes the dynamic of what the building feels like. It's an offensive-centric place to be. And I honestly think there's something to that. And I think that we feel the difference at times when the defensive-minded head coach is at the center of things and when the offensive-minded head coach is at the center of things, no matter who the offensive coordinator is. To me, perfect example. You go back to the 2017-2018 Vikings,

where Mike Zimmer was the head coach and Kevin Stefanski was the offensive coordinator. Even though Kevin Safansky ultimately becomes a head coach, that building is defined. by the culture and the mindset and the overarching feeling that comes from having Mike Zimmer as a defensive-minded head coach. And I think that that has shifted. And it's very apparent when you see how different that building feels with Kevin O'Connell. And I'm so glad you said the communication part of this, because that's what I keep coming back to right now is I start thinking about where we need to find these coaches.

And talking to the guys who I think are really, really good, they just love the teaching part of it. And they feel like it's an open dialogue when it comes to that teaching part of it. It's not just a, this is your shit, do your job. It's a let's figure out how it's rules-based. On offense, it's how are we going to break these rules? And I'm going to show you all the ways we're going to break them. I'm going to tell you why we're doing this, what rule it's breaking, and how that makes your job easier.

That is like the overwhelming dynamic with Mike McDaniel and how the Miami Dolphins work. And then on defense, I think some of the best coaches, you look at what's happening in Baltimore right now specifically, Mike McDonald and that defensive staff, they're maniacal about the rules. If this happens, this is our rule. If this happens, this is our rule. And I think there were times in defensive coaching in the NFL where people went away from that because in their minds, they thought if we overload guys with rules, they're going to play slow. And I think a lot of coaches who are a little bit more thoughtful than that these days are saying, well, if guys don't understand the rules, then they're going to play slow. They're going to play confused. They're going to play without confidence.

So I think that level of clear communication has really dictated success for offensive and defensive teams right now. And I think younger coaches, just as a blanket statement, have been a little bit more receptive and open to acknowledging and embracing that sort of communication. Well, and the game's changed, man. The game's changed so much from when I came in in 2009 to now. And the biggest thing is the players that are playing in the league have sort of changed their mindset about life and about coaching. And it used to be like this, oh, this hard, these hard asses like Parcells. And even John Payton sort of like that, but you sort of respected them.

Like, this is how it is, just do it. Like, you know, this is how we do things. And now, well, there's no explanation back then. And I think it's changed to be like, hey, like guys feel a lot more comfortable, guys have more questions. And I think these younger guys, like Mike Me Daniel for an instance, like it just, it's so hard to explain if you're not in the building. But the dynamic in which they communicate to players has changed drastically. And I think that you're going to see that moving forward. And you already have with even younger hires.

I mean, the perfect example. and we love to overlook him because he's been a head coach for so long. He's my age, is Sean McVey. Like, Sean McVey is one of the best communicators in all of football. And when he was hired, I think he was, was 30 when he was a head coach. I think it was 30 or 31. Yeah. 30 or 31, like, it was insane to me what he's able to do and just like he's taken on that offensive minded head coach, but now he's gotten into more things and more interest of within the whole team and it's helped him become an overall better head coach. But if you just hear him talk at the podium, like you can just tell like he's a dynamic communicator. And that's the biggest thing

right now for head coaches for me. And I think I've talked about this a lot over the last couple years in the what people actually think they're looking for when they're chasing the next John McVeigh. It wasn't the next great schemer necessarily. I think it was somebody who was could set a culture but also just had great communication skills, just was able to kind of set a culture of communication within the building. And I think a lot of these other young coaches have been able to do that in a way that's really benefited them. That's not the conversation I thought we're going to have, but I'll have that conversation a hundred times out of 100. Last thing I wanted to dig in today, speaking of Sean McVeigh, McVeigh after the game this week at midfield, or wherever they were, I don't know if it was in midfield. It was after the game on the field. He told Miles Garrett reportedly that Miles Garrett, reportedly, that Miles Garrett ruined his week in the amount of game planning he had to do to account for Miles Garrett in that game. So what I wanted to ask you is, you were part of hundreds of game plans over the course of your career. I'm curious, in your 14 years, which defensive player required the most attention when you guys were building the game plan for that week?

Yeah. I mean, for me, the one that jumps off the table is Aaron Donald. And rarely do you say interior delinement because you got a lot of guys in there blocking. And usually it's edge rushers, right? But mine was Aaron Donald. I think we went, was it 27th. We were in New Orleans. That was my second trip back to New Orleans.

And that season, we ended up being pretty good that year. We went to L.A. We were playing at the Coliseum, playing against the Rams. And that was like Aaron Donald was rolling that year. And I remember we spent the whole week out there. And when we started talking about game planning, and when we started, like when I'm talking about the Saints and the quarterbacks, and we started talking about like really Monday night, Tuesday morning,

starting game planning. Dude, I remember it. And it's the only time I've really seen this way. And Sean Payton in general, this offense, he does a really good job of protecting quarterbacks. And the biggest thing for that game was, how are we going to stop Aaron Donald? And I remember thinking, I mean,

because I was 10 years into the league at that point or really like eight or nine years in. And I started thinking, I'm like, we're basing the entire game plan. off of an interior defensive lineman, like where you can double team and triple team him. And sure enough, that it was built backwards that week. And we, I think he maybe had one sack, but he was on a tear of that game. And the biggest thing on why, why we did it that way is because he can ruin a game plan. Like he could, like he still can to this day. And these guards and these

centers back when he was first started, they just don't know how to block it. He's a pass rusher. Like he really is. Like he's not a run defender. Like he can like he that's not what he's known for. He's learned about getting there and getting sacks. So it was like every single, um, play no matter if the blitz was coming from the right. If Aaron Donald lined up on our left, we were sliding the center to the left. Like I don't care.

Like back you get a safety blitz or like, and I'm like, we're losing our, we're losing our back and not getting our back out because they're only bringing five and we're just like, what are we doing? We got six to block. But sure enough, and there was even sometimes on third down where we called it stud, STUD, stud protection, it'd be like 22 paint stud. And that was keyed the offensive line and the running back on no matter where the pressure is, we would throw hot. We're going to turn the line to Aaron Donald.

So the center's going. And then honestly, we'd have a plan where if Aaron Donald was on the left and we'd have the back on the right and shotgun and third down protection, we would hop the back over to the left. So you get center guard and a halfback on them, which is wild to me. So that's for sure, like the number one game. The other, the other game that. How did Breeze feel about that? That you're fucking with the integrity of your offensive plan for one player. Was he okay with that? So I think like both of us, when we first started hearing that we were going to do that and then we finally started watching film on Tuesday, we were like, oh, okay, that's why. Like, like, okay,

Like he was on a tear, bro. Like, we were like, all right, that's fine. That's fine. We're just going to throw a hot a couple of times because they weren't a big pressure team. And another time, too, it comes from the Sean Payton tree was Joe Lombardi, the game against Miles Garrett and the Cleveland Browns in 2021. It was like, 45, 42. That whole week, Joe Lombardi was like, look, he's an edge rusher. He's going to mess up our plan.

So we're going to slide everything to him, even if there's pressure. And this, we had stud protection in five years later that he took. from Sean Payton and it was wherever Miles Garrett went. I'm a kid you not dude. If Miles Garrett lined up on the left and we had a tight end and a halfback on the right, we would move both of them over there before. And you go back and really watch tape, you're like, why are they moving left and right? And there was a couple times in that game, I think, where he like, he figured out what we were doing. He started on the left and we would have two guys on the left. He would move up to the right and we'd move guys to the right and be like, oh my gosh, stop.

game this year where the tight ends were just moving back and forth and they eventually got a delay a game. That's the protection that they do. It's wild to me. This year, and this is unrelated, but I'm curious what your response to this would be. I think the defenses in general, and this has been one of the stories of the season, in my opinion, have done such a great job of just closing the gap with NFL offenses. And I think there's a ton of reasons that that have happened. But one of the smart things that a lot of defensive coordinators have done this year is that they've just dropped their best pass rusher right over the center. And they've had five guys. guys lined up and creating those one-on-ones.

How do you account for a Miles Garrett, a Micah Parsons, whoever they're dropping there in those situations when you can't slide one way or the other? It's essentially just a one-on-one created with the center. Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing, right, is the Miles Garrett clip of him, like, doing a crossover, right, early in the year, and I'm just like, this dude's about to get cross-up, sure enough, sack. And then actually, a team before this got really popular that did it a lot when we were in

Chicago, the Packers used to put Zarias Smith right over the center. And we were like, oh my, it was like one of the first times we saw that. And it was to get away from these chips, to get away. And that's the biggest thing. And that's the hiccup so many times with these defensive fronts and these defensive coordinator saying, hey, we want five one-on-one. So I don't care if it's a linebacker over the center. I don't care if it's a Miles Garrett over the center. Like if you have five over the offensive linemen, like you're going to have to five-o that protection, which means, well, our five offensive linemen are going to have to take their five defensive linemen. It just is what it is. And that's how defensive coordinators are getting really good pressure and being able to move

there. Like, JJ Watt even did it a couple times when he was still playing. Like, hey, the center's not used to blocking these edge rushers. Why not put him over the center? And now what I'm seeing teams do is they're full sliding it and just leaving like a linebacker on the edge for the halfback. So I think that's sort of seeing that. And another thing that I actually saw, which completely out of the blue, but I was watching Kenny Pickett, Mitch Trubisky, against the Cardinals. I thought the Cardinals' defensive game plan versus the Steelers' offensive line was outstanding. And the reason was because they would end up putting five across the center,

five across the offensive line, and sometimes it'd be a lineback or sometimes it'd be a delinement. But the biggest thing that I saw was they'd put five over and they'd bring two off the edge or two off the edge and rotate coverages, and the Steelers had no answer for it. So I think just think that's so difficult for offensive game planners to be like, well, okay, we're going to 5-0 it, and we have another guy to block the extra.

Well, you still have 5-1-on-ones, and all of a sudden you're just bringing 4, you're dropping three out of the middle, and you're bringing two from the edge. I just thought that was really good from the Cardinal standpoint. You're seeing more and more of these type of pressures from offensive coordinators and defense corners, really.

I was talking to Bobby Sloak yesterday for something that I'm working on. And we were talking about some of the changes that defenses have had over the last couple of years. And he said that there's just a soundness in coverage that's tied to pressure that really wasn't there four or five years ago. Where when teams would bring pressures, there would be a little bit of a hole here. They would leave themselves a little bit vulnerable here. And teams have just gotten so good across the board at understanding if we bring pressure and play man, it's going to make it hard on us. It's just going to make it difficult on us.

We're giving them answers to the test before it even starts. But if we're bringing pressure and we can play coverage behind it and still have a level of soundness to it, we just have a better set of answers for what these teams are going to do. And I think that's probably a pretty good example is what the Cardinals were doing in that game. Yeah. I mean, and that's the biggest thing. What I've seen from coming in, it was just true zone zone, single high zone, three deep, three under. Well, if you do three deep 300, you're not manning up and you're not doing that.

There's a lot of holes in the middle of the field. And that's what teams used to be like, oh, I hope they pressure. because, you know, there's one one guy that has to cover number to number, like as a linebacker. Like that's not, that's not sound. And I think what you're seeing more is teams are bringing these zone pressures, but only bringing four, maybe five, dropping out of D.N and still playing shell coverage. Two high looks, hard corners, less man, and just giving the defense's better matchups. Yeah, and that's what it feels like. And again, I just think that it's one more step that defenses have taken.

And it's always going to be cyclical. We're always going to have these stretches where offenses win. We're always seen heavy stretches where defenses win. And that battle on what it's looked like, I think, has really been one of the things that's defined what this season has been and the way that it's unfolded. And something to keep in mind as we watch the final five games of the year here. Chase Daniel, always great to chat with you, my friend. Really appreciate the time.

Really appreciate all of you guys for listening this week. Please continue to check out everything that we have coming your way on the athletic football show feed. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.