The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - In The Pocket: Joe Flacco finds the fountain of youth, Jordan Love vs. Geno Smith, ownership's effect on players, and more

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

In the final regular season edition of The Athletic Football Show's In The Pocket, Robert Mays and Chase Daniel discuss Joe Flacco's rebirth, whether they'd rather see Jordan Love or Geno Smith in the playoffs, how ownership affects players, and more.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Chase on Twitter: @ChaseDanielSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the Athletic Football Show. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me for this week's edition of In the Pocket. It's a long time. NFL quarterback, Chase Daniel. Chase, how you doing, man? What's going on, man?

It's crazy. Crazy times in the National Football League, week 18. Oh, man. It seems like the season has been long, but not really. You know, we talked about this a little bit, like covering the teams.

Um, it's a mental overload. I'm sure like you do like 15 shows. So, uh, your, your mind has to be fried right now. And it all comes down to this, right? Like week 18. And, and I was doing another show, uh, earlier in the week or last week. And I was, I was getting a head start on some of the scenarios in the AFC and the NFC. And in my 14 years of playing, quite honestly, like, I, I don't know if there's been,

more crazier outcomes. You got some ties in there. You got some like things that you don't think could happen probably could happen. You got people resting starters, which plays in a whole other dynamic. You got games on Saturday. Last game of the year is Buffalo, Miami. Like it, it's shaping up to be an excellent, an excellent week 18. Okay. I sort of believe that because there are some weird scenarios, but for the most part, the three to four spots that are left, we've got some stuff that's cut and dry. Houston Texan, or Houston and Indie winner gets in. The Packers win, they're in.

That's why those games are positioned the way that they are. The Steelers win, and Buffalo loses the Steelers are in. So for the most part, it's pretty clean. You were a part of, in my opinion, the weirdest situation I can ever remember in week 18, and that if you guys had tied in week 18, you would have made the playoffs two years. ago. So I understand there's some won'ty ones here. That's the weirdest one that I could remember because there was that will there or won't they conversation the entire week about whether there would be some sort of mutually agreed upon decision where you guys would tie and both make the playoffs.

Oh, dude, that was wild. That was wild. Being on the sideline for that game and just in just like hearing the buildup to it and like, wait, we can really tie. Oh, that's not going to happen. We're not going to like. And sure enough, that's the fourth down game. where Herbert had like, we had like eight fourth down conversions, I think, which was like second most in NFL history. Might have been most in info history. And it just like fourth and 21, like fourth in 16. No time left on a corner bite route to Mike Williams in the end zone. And I'm just like, holy cow, like this is. And then it gets the 32, 32.

And I was like, oh my gosh, Mike Williams had the dagger out the back door. We kick a feel like in overtime to tie it with four minutes left. I'm like, what are they going to do? Are they going to just run the ball? And then, yeah, I mean, that was, that was wild. Like, I don't even know how that tie played into it, but I do know that when we heard that we were like, there's no way in hell it's going to end in the tie. I don't know why I was watching it this way, but I watch games in my basement typically, because that's where I have the multiple TVs, but there are moments where my wife wants to work out on the Sunday night, or she's trying to do something in the basement, so I give her her space and I'll watch upstairs in our living room. But that game, I was bouncing back and forth. So I just remember standing up for essentially the entire fourth quarter and overtime because

I'm just pacing between the floors watching the game. While I've done this show, this is season And this is the second year, I think, or third year that we've done it while I've lived in this house. It is certainly the most memorable football watching experience that I have had since I've done this podcast and since I've lived in this home. Yeah. I mean, that was, man, I would have been sweet if we would have in playoffs. But yeah, that was wild. Yeah, I mean, it is cut and dry, but what I love is like the AFC seating is interesting to me. and there's really like three teams for the finalish two spots or whatever you know because it could be

Steelers, Colts, Texans. And then the NFC, there's one spot unspoken for and there's five teams. And there's legitimately a chance that a Saints team, even if they lose, I say a legitimate chance, there's a chance that if a Saints team that's up 500 gets into the playoffs, like it doesn't, like you, it's like, wow. Like, it's, I'm looking forward to it. It did it crazy to, like, the schedule makers, like, they hope and pray for this. Like, a prime time game on Saturday, that's a visual crowd, primetime game on Sunday, game 272 or whatever it is.

And then just like, you play 17 games and it comes down to 60 minutes for 11 teams in the NFC and 9, I mean, 20 teams. It's crazy. It's crazy. I'm looking at the tankathon right. now the standings. There are 15 teams that are between 7 and 9 and 9 and 7 in the NFL right now. So just think about how many things can change, whether it's playoff positioning or positioning in the draft based on what happens this weekend, and that's exactly what teams want. We're going to talk a little bit about some playoff scenarios and maybe teams we want to see. Let's start with a team

that has nothing to play for this week and is not playing their starting quarterback because they're resting him. And that is the Cleveland Browns and Joe Flacco, who are starting Jake Driscoll this week. We're not going to talk about Jake Driscoll. Jake Driscoll starting for the Browns this week. When you have a superstar at quarterback, you can't risk injury in week 18. They've got to keep him on ice until we get to the wild card rounds. The Browns have their seating locked up. They are the five seat in the AFC.

They have nothing to play for us. So they're sitting guys. But we have not talked since another crazy Joe Flacco game on Thursday night last week. So I wanted to dig into just how wild this feels right now. It has been a heck of a month. This guy goes from sitting on his couch. having no team in the NFL call him to now being on the biggest run of any quarterback in the league over the last five weeks. He's thrown for 1,600 yards over the last five games. That is the most

of any quarterback in that span. He's thrown 13 touchdowns over the last five games, which is the most of any quarterback over that span. We've got him making jokes in the locker room about if he had made a mistake in high school, he would have fathered one of his teammates, which this guy, he is operating at a no fucks left to give level that is really hard to compare anything to. So as we sit back and really take in the entire Joe Flacco experience here, how real do you think this is in terms of what he's doing and what sort of chance it gives the Browns? I mean, it's very real. When you go back and watch the games, now he has thrown for the most yards, most touchdowns over the last five games, but he's got the most interesting. perceptions too. And you talk about don't giving anything. Like, don't care in. It reminds,

he reminds me a lot of the Honey Badger Ryan Fitzpatrick. Because when he was hot, like, back in his Buffalo day, like Honey Badger don't give shit. Like, he don't care. And when Ryan Fitzpatrick was rolling back in the day, like, I'll tell you what, like, I wouldn't even care in the quarterback room who we're playing next. Like, we will, we would just hop on or put on a Ryan Fitzpatrick, Buffalo Bill State before we even started getting into anything. We would just like go through. We'd put on like, we'd order it from like long play to short play. We were in New Orleans with Drew.

Okay. And it was like, we were just like, oh my, we just kept like rewining and be like, how did he fit that dagger into that window or how did he throw that post? How in the world did he alert a field go versus cover two? And he was rolling. And I say that because, dude, I put on the last two or three Joe Flacco games. I've watched them live too. But when you rewatch it, it's so similar to the feeling that I had with the,

with Ryan Fitzpatrick and the Honey Patrick. I love that. Because it is real. It is real. But the dude is throwing it. I would say like a quarter of his throws, in my opinion, like, why are you throwing that? It should be intercepted. Oh, huge play.

You know, so he does have that. And he's gotten a little bit better. He threw the pick six on the screen, which I don't really, but he's got the most. I think he's got eight interceptions last five games. So he threw the pick six on the screen. You could excuse that. There were three more balls he threw in the first half that should have been intercepted and weren't.

The one to and Joku. The one to and Joku, I'm not even talking about that one. My favorite throw he had in that game in the first half, they do a play action. He boots out real slow to the left because that's what it looks like now. And that's what they're doing. They're just using a ton of play action and just letting him. go bombs away. So he rolls out and he throws a crosser to Injoku that goes right through, I think it was Quincy Williams's hands on this crosser. Even those plays, the spectacular

plays, there's a little bit of danger to them right now when you're watching him. But I think at the end, if you take all of it in totality, this still gives them their best shot offensively. Because there's nothing that they can rely on right now. And that's why, because at first glance, It's like, okay, they have explosives. If they can create explosives on offense or create explosives on defense, that feels like a good recipe. Other situations where you have a great elite defense, you'd say, okay, if we have an elite defense and we can run the ball consistently, that's our recipe. They can't run the ball consistently right now, which is a weird thing to say about the

Browns, but the injuries they've had at tackle and losing Nick Chubb, this team has a higher percentage of negative runs than any other team in the NFL. over the last two months, and they are one of the least efficient running teams in the NFL over the last two months. So you take that, and then you consider the explosive element that Flacco gives you, he has 27 completions of 20 plus yards over the last five games, which is the most in the league. The other Browns quarterbacks this year, and their 11 games, combined for 24. So he has three more 20-yard completions and five games that all their other quarterbacks had combined in twice as many. So when you take all of that and you consider the entire,

picture of what they are, I do think that this living on the edge style that they've lived into is the correct way for them to put the best product on the field of playoffs. There's no doubt. And, you know, their defense has been really, really good at some points and really, really bad at other points. And their defense really hasn't traveled on the road. And the reason I'm saying about this is because when you look forward to the playoffs, right, that you want a really good defense that can travel on the road and you want a good run game. And it, I didn't know how many negative runs like the, like the statutes. you were saying, but it just sure seemed to me the last goal games, I'm like, man, they're in second and

11. Like, they're in second and 15, like, and he's just in shotgun shucking it. Like deep in, I think this is like, this reminds me of, like, I feel like this is what opposite the run game, not having Nick Chod really hurts. This is the offense that Kevin Safiancy wants to run, man, like this under center, heavy play action, bootleg, 22 personnel, 13 personnel. It reminds me of like stuff I saw back in his early days. And when you bring Joe Flacco in, I mean, the dude's got a cannon,

okay, first and foremost, like he can stretch the field vertically. And it doesn't seem like he's taking a bunch of sacks, but he sure looks slow out there. Like, he's moving at a slow. Schedule plays,

though. That's another part of this where I wonder when it's going to come back down to earth because he's making off schedule out of structure extended plays. I don't think you can argue that the explosive arm and the big plays and all of that will continue because the guy does have a cannon. It's the off-schedule stuff where he's creating out of structure.

That stuff is not going to continue. Eventually, you're not going to get those breaks. And I wonder and worry what they're going to look like when they stop getting them. I mean, the play of the game this past Thursday was when he got freaking elbowed and hit in the chin, like in the face mask, spins out of it. First of all, like, how did Joe Flacco say up on that? goes to his left, I guess drone forward in the flat, and an off-scheduled play,

and he has a touchdown, and Joe Flack was like, talking crap to the other sideline. Like, I watched from the back end, I'm like, Joe really looked back and gave him a stare. Like,

the dude is, and that's honestly, like what can be really scary. He's got to take it to the Jets. That, that's what can be really scary at playoff time when you've got a confident quarterback

and that can just sling it around the yard like that. that like I just think like we've talked about it you know how I feel about it like like when Aaron Rogers got hurt for the Jets my first thought and a lot of other people's thoughts around the league was Joe Flacco he played with you guys last year I know it's a different offensive scheme I got it but man how dumb do the Jets look right now like truly because and we've said it and there's some other issues I get it in in in New York but you're one quarterback away potentially of what you wanted to do this year.

And that's make a playoffs, make a run. Instead, you're playing Trevor Simeon, you're playing all these guys. And really, in the year of the backup, it's Joe Flacco and Gardner Minchu are the two that really stand out the most that have done enough for their teams. And Joe is, I mean, he wasn't talked about it.

He's on this couch. Like, I don't quite think you understand. And it's not like he was probably in the gym every single day working out, working on his armstring, working in his drops at the at the at the at the at the high school field he looks pretty good he might have been i don't that's the thing like i just don't i just don't know if that's it but he's like obviously he wanted to to play and in like that just brings into doubt and not into doubt but

brings uh into effect like he's played himself into another job next year somewhere he has to watching that offense right now it really does feel like everything's coming together in a way that makes sense because they're playing with two backup tackles how do you protect tackles in the passing game. Chips, heavy personnel, more bodies in protection. So that alignment of him just being able to rip these shots off play action actually contributes to them protecting better with their current personnel. And watching them try to solve this problem with the offensive line has been interesting. If you look at some of the run game stuff, they're trying out right now, they're trying to take things off of the tackles. They're running a lot of draws, so you're running

the defensive ends up field. They're doing a lot of heavy jumbo formations where the starting tackle is now the third man inside. So you're asking him to not make the block at the point of attack. It's smart football. Eventually, you can only do so much when you're limited at those spots. But I think a lot of different aspects of what their offense is right now makes sense, given the personnel.

But the thing that's really making a go is he's willing to take shots and attempt throws that very few quarterbacks would even try. I was talking to someone from their. last week and pointed out a couple examples specifically from that game, the stick nod he threw, and then the crossword and Joku, those are throws that they might not even have attempted with a different quarterback. And I think that willingness to push the ball in those specific situations has given them a level that they didn't have with anyone else and I think makes them the most dangerous version of themselves. Well, I think so too. I'm glad you brought that up because I have

noticed, like, it is in my opinion. Now, I know there's some candidates out there for coaches of the year, but to me, this makes it feel like what Stefansky has done from a coaching perspective. Like, he should be right in the thick of the coach of the year. Oh, 100%. He's the favorite right now, and I think justifiably so. And that's not being talked about enough because a lot of teams that have gone to their third, fourth quarterback have not even remote.

I mean, are they 11 and 5 right now as a 5 seed? I mean, 11 and 5 in any other year would potentially going into the 17 game of the year. It might be 2C, but you got the Ravens, obviously, so your second division, you're not, you know. But it's just such a good job of coaching. Their offense makes sense, the way they protect, the way they throw. And the fact that Flacco, this is another point that needs to be made is, like, Flacco was sitting on the couch, right? He didn't really have a bunch of reps in the Stefansky offense. It's very wordy.

Run game checks, personnel, how they call motions. For him to come out and just be able to do it, like after two weeks, learning it, really a week and a half learning it, like that needs to be talked about too because as a quarterback, you have to obviously spit the play out, but you also have to make sure that players know what to do if they ask in the huddle. And there will be some asking in that offense because it's crazy. You've got to know your stuff.

And so you got guys that have been there all at training camp. They're asking a guy that got there a week and a half ago, and they're still running the most efficient offense that I've seen them run in the past couple years. And he's the quarterback that has done it. It hasn't been to John Watson. The Coach of the Year conversation is a fascinating one. We're going to do an award show me and Nate next week. I am not looking forward to the Coach of the Year decision.

I've probably had five different answers to that question over the last week. So I'm dreading having to actually land on one. I'm leaning toward maybe hedging and just giving it to co-coaches, even though that's a cowardly move, and I know I shouldn't do that. The question moving forward with Joe Flacco, if you're the Browns, should you bring him back as a backup next year? And beyond should you, can you? When you consider the dynamics with the way that he's played, the way the town has taken to him, the way the locker room is clearly taken to him, and the fact that you have given up everything that you have for Deshaun Watson, as somebody who's been in those rooms, How would you handle this moving forward if you were the Browns?

I think you'd be so dumb if you didn't resign him. Like in a year where 14 or 15 backups have played, I hear one snap away from having to trust Joe Flacco next year. And that's got to be a good feeling for Stefansky to have a guy who is, like, you couldn't have two more opposites. I feel like at this point in Joe Flacco's career, he'd be okay because he would be the backup if they brought him back. They gave Deshaun Watson the bank plus more.

Like he's going to be the starter next year there, at least at the beginning of the year. And then you bring in a guy like Joe Flacco, who is probably at this point in where just wanting to win, wanting to help out, like wanting to be a part of the brotherhood, the locker room. Like, I think it could absolutely work. And I think it's a good way because, look, he's going to have a market. It's just especially after this year and how many backup quarterbacks have played and how many backup quarterbacks have sort of crap the bed a little bit other than like

menschew jake browning which you know he's not even getting the bengals to the playoffs but it's going to be an interesting conversation and i think i think you absolutely should i think you absolutely can it's not like you know flacco's going to cost you a 10 million when he's sitting on a couch he he he said today he's like he's like honestly like i don't even know if i've gotten paid yet like i don't even care like that just tells me one he's got a ton of money i got i get I get it. But, but, but, like, you're still taking time away from family. You're still taking time away from stuff that you love to go play. Like, it just tells me a guy at this point of his career that loves the game. The money helps. Okay, he's got a ton of it. He doesn't need any more. But he's just love him playing the game. Like, he's becoming a little kid again. And I love it. I love seeing it, man. That's a great story. How much money you think Joe Flacco has made playing football?

How many years did he play? 16 years. What was his draft year? 2008. Very memorable year. Yeah. He's probably made $215 million. That's high, but it is $175 million, which is...

That's not too bad, $175 million. Good for Joe Flacco. Again, this is literally house money that he's playing with right now. Money he does not need, he's just having a good time. Let's stick with some sort of sticky quarterback situations. in the AFC North here. The Steelers are going to continue to ride with Mason Rudolph, even with Kenny Bickett coming back relatively, let's say healthy enough. Kenny Pickett is healthy enough to play, and they are rolling with Mason Rudolph. Pickett will be the backup in Pittsburgh. Pickett came out

this week, said, I did not refuse to be the backup last week. That was misreported. There's a lot of weird happening right there. Right. So there's just a lot of stuff bouncing around there right now. And based on the results, I understand my time going this direction. You put up 30 points in back-to-back weeks. They hadn't scored 30 in a game since week 11 of last year before they did it over the last two weeks. It helps to play two defenses that are reeling right now in the Bengals and the Seahs. Two defenses where the bottom has fallen out here over the last few weeks. Both of them are bottom six in weighted defensive DVOA right now.

But if you're the Steelers and you've made this move, what do you think this says not only about the present but about Kenny Pickett's future there and about who might be playing quarterback for the Steelers next season. Man, that's a deep question, man. Because, you know, at one, when you sent this rundown and I was thinking about it and how I wanted to respond to this, I wanted to make sure that it was thought out. And I just came back to there's two, there's two scenarios. One, like, it's just Tomlin who for 17 straight seasons has yet to have a losing season. which is the best stat of all time.

I don't care what you take. Not one losing season. Okay, so the dude, obviously, like, one of the best coaches in the league. It's just him going with the hot hand. Like, that's one way of thinking about it because it is. I mean, the fact that they've scored more than, they've had just over 30 points a game in the last two weeks. I don't care about your DVOA weight, all that crap.

And I like it. I like it because you still got to do it. It's merely context. It's mere context, but the results have been there, and I think that is what is important to Mike Tomlin. And I do think that it's, I do think that there's something to be said about, like, how confident he's playing.

So you put up 30, you're averaging 30 points a game. Like, that's what you want as a quarterback in this league. You want confidence. You want command. You want the dude's been inactive for 14 weeks, meaning like him and Chubisky, he's getting four to five scout team reps a week because Trubitsky is getting most of them because he was the backup. So like it makes it even

more impressive. People don't understand quite by like, oh yeah, he's been working on his craft. But he's been in street clothes, bro, for 14 weeks. Okay. And these last two weeks, he said, you know what? Yeah, you know, you were the backup when Trubisky was a starter. Trabisky, uh, not enough. Let's just give Mason a chance and talk about an opportunity and seizing it. Not only for this year, for next year. But like, it just finally makes sense because the Steelers, we've always had the conversation about the Steelers being their defense is great. Their defense is like they can win with their defense.

It's always been that whole home offense. They had for 56 or 57 straight games. They didn't have 400 yards of offense. Now you're telling me they scored 30 in back-to-back weeks for the first time since week 11 of last year. Like, it just sort of galvanizes the team when in a scenario of Pittsburgh making the playoffs is very, I mean, it could happen. It's very likely.

I wouldn't see very likely. It's likely that could happen. It's not hard. All they need is they need to win and they need the bills to lose or the Jax. And they're in. That's it. And the bills very well could. I mean, they're in.

And then they become sort of a scary team of Mason can do this. So, and then the other way of thinking is like with getting back, way back, I digress to the question you ask, the other way of thinking about Kenny Pickett is like, man, his time is done. Because I went down that path too. I'm like, oh, man. Like, you're healthy. Like, they say people can't lose a job based on injury.

Like, and then this comes out. And I'm not saying it's true or not true. And Kennedy, of course, is going to say it's not true. And I don't know, we don't know for fact what happened because I'm sure he was pissed. I'm sure he was pissed off. They lost a job. I'd be pissed off too. But, like, no, like, it's my team.

Because, and I will say when their office coordinator got fired, those were two of Kenny's best games of his career. let's just let's just make that a statement as well he got hurt i get it but isn't it just a fascinating story like not only is it the year of the backup it's year of like the third and four stringers that are that's why this is different to me this is different than oh we're gonna we're gonna stick with nick moans over jaron hole or jaron hall that's that's it's different when you have a guy that you drafted in the first round a year ago and you're keeping him on the bench for a third string quarterback who was on the roster when you used a first round pick on this guy.

Mike Tomlin has famously, the way he treats his players, it's very much what have you done for me lately. He's very blunt with guys during film sessions. He'll be pointing out stars making mistakes. This isn't how we do things. He's very transparent about all this, but with quarterbacks, it's different. You know this.

So this isn't about, you know what, you've had a rough stretch. you are starting three technique. We're going to have somebody push you here. The optics, when you're doing it with a quarterback, it's just an entirely different consideration. And I wonder if this signals were done with the Kenny Pickett era in Pittsburgh, if that's too harsh.

But if it's not, if that really is what we're talking about here, what's going to happen a quarterback for the Steelers next year if it's not Kenny Pickett? Yeah. I mean, the quarterback, they need to be in the quarterback market, in my opinion. Like, like, Tomlin worded it in such a Tomlin way. when he was like low-key said, yeah, you know, we're just going to ride with, we're going to ride with Rudolph or whatever. Yeah, like, it's no big deal.

Totally. And I'm like, hold on. Like, like, it almost like entranced me to be like, oh, like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. He's playing well. He should keep playing. He has such a way of doing that, though, where he'll say something that's such a huge

deal and he'll couch it in this casual attitude where you think, oh, yeah, okay, I get that. I get why you would do that. And totally. And so like that to me was, I thought, was just like hilarious, but like make no mistake about it. Right. Dude like, Pickett is healthy enough. Pickett got benched. That that's what it is. Like picket is sent to the bench. And for a guy who was the third string that has been a hit or miss. And yeah, you're going with the hot hand. Yeah, it's Tomlin saying, what have you done for me lately? But you drafted this guy in the first round lesson two years ago. And it just hasn't worked out. And I saw and I, and I, and part of, you. And part of. me being a quarterback and loving on all quarterbacks and hating when any quarterback plays bad. Like, I would have loved to see Pickett sort of keep the momentum going and not get hurt because I thought he was playing pretty well. But it's always been that thing like, hey, Kenny, we're just going to stick around to the fourth quarter.

And especially last year, remember the last six, seven, eight games in the year? It was all fourth quarter comebacks. It was all like just balling out in the fourth quarter. I'm like, where are those first three quarters? And it just hadn't shown. And it makes complete sense. I mean, could you imagine, and this is why I'm bringing it up. Maybe you can't imagine because you never, like I'm talking not to you, but to people that are watching the show.

But you probably can't imagine because you guys have never been in locker rooms. Could you imagine that locker room if after what Mason Rudolph has done the last two games, which has played really well, to go into that locker room and say, all right, can you pick it? you're going back to starting and benching. But how much leeway does the starting quarterback get in those moments? If it were a guy who's job security, okay, let's put another quarterback in here. Let's, for example, Jake Browning has the two games that Jake Browning had, but Joe Burrow could come back and play.

You're not saying that about Joe Burrow. No, no. And that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm getting to. That's a point I'm trying to make is like that locker room would go berserk because they, And I think they know that Kenny maybe isn't that guy or hasn't done enough to it. And yeah, you're going to stick behind your backup. Sorry, your starter and Kenny Pickett.

But the way Rudolph's going, like, there's going to be some rumblings. And so I think he made the right decision on many facets, like not just from a pomp and circumstance like media because he's really good at talking media. But like in the locker, I'm like, you got it. You got to ride with Mason Rudolph, man. Like it just makes a lot of sense. I'm fascinated by what they're going to do a quarterback next year if they move on from Pickett because they can free up a decent amount of space. I mean, Justin Fields, I think, does make sense for them specifically.

That's one where I would absolutely make the call because they can free up a decent amount of financial wiggle room. If they move on from Trubisky, Patrick Peterson, Alan Robinson, some of these stopgap guys that they brought in that, yeah, guys in their 30s that don't have a lot of dead money left on those contracts. They do that and they borrow from the bank of T.J. Watt is a $21 million-based salary, and they just convert that. They can be at $25 million in cap space very quickly. So if they want it to potentially be in on a Kirk Cousins conversation or another expensive veteran that would give them an immediate option, that does seem like it's within the realm of possibility. but I also think that the combination price and theoretical upside you get by chasing a guy like 24-year-old Justin Fields is maybe a better potential outcome not only for the present but the future. And I think that's something that Omar Khan's only in year two of this, right? So you have an aging core with Cam Hayward and some of these other players. But at the same time, I think that trying to keep one foot in the president and one foot in the future may be the best move for them.

Yeah, I agree. It is going to be such an interesting offseason. And just, I mean, not only for the Steelers at quarterback, but just so many teams it feels like this year, like 14, 12 to 14 teams could be in the market and will be in the market for a quarterback, whether draft or free agency or trade and just there's just not a lot of good quarterbacks go around. Right? So teams are going to have to overpay for people. And whether it's a draft pick and a trade or whether it's a salary and free agency, if you want the, if you want the best. So we don't need to talk about that because we did a whole hour episode last week. on that. Well, what I like about this, what I like about this as an Atlantic spot for Fields or really any

quarterback, and I think what one of the arguments for Mason Rudolph is, Mason Rudolph has played just well enough for you to get glimpses of what the playmakers are. They have spent on past catchers. They have used real resources to build this core of Johnson, Pickens, Pat Fryermuth, and now you're seeing what those guys are capable of when given the correct amount of opportunities. So if you are a Justin Fields or somebody else dropped into this situation, it's not like you'd have nothing to work with. Even though the offense has been DOA for stretches of the season, there are some kernels and some flashes of talent that I think could get you pretty excited

about what this could look like with the right quarterback and the right new play caller next year. Yeah, it's a young, it's a young offensive court for the most part. I mean, those two receivers. I mean, say what you want about pickings and, you know, all the off-fields. The dude can, the dude- He's an adventure, man. Tomlin said something during the game. I saw a clip of it this morning when I was watching some NFL films type stuff. And he said, he makes the freaky shit look casual. And he said that to Pickens as he was walking off. And you could see in that moment the bargain that Mike Tomlin has made with himself with George Pickens. It's like, I know what I have done. I know the life I've entered with this guy. And if you have a quarterback who can give you more of those freaky plays routinely, you're willing to live with some of the bullshit. And I think that that's what you've seen over the last couple games specifically. Steelers need some help locking up that final wildcarts pot in the AFC.

They need the bills to lose or the Jags to lose. Over in the NFC, that last wildcard spot will likely come down to the Seahawks or the Packers. I have a simple question for you as we think about those two teams potentially getting to the playoffs. Purely as a football fan, would you rather watch Jordan Love or Gino Smith in the postseason? purely as a football fan it's easy for me it's Jordan love okay what I know you like Gino so I got to make sure oh I'm ready man I'm ready I got to make sure that my uh response is is worthy so so so for me with Jordan love um it's just come down to the growth of him throughout the season A lot of people, including well-known within NFL circles without NFL circles, just thought, like, hey, like we're losing Aaron Rogers.

We're super young team. Like, I don't know, youngest or second- youngest team, offensive playmakers, like none. Chris Watson's always hurt. No one knew what Jane Reed was going to be. They lose their starting tight end. The running back position is solidified. You lose your tackle. Like, all these things happen.

And if you could tell me, and you would tell LaFleur that their season hinges on a week 18 game, win and in, they'd be ecstatic. Estatic, bro. And it was Jordan Love has been like a little bit of a roller coaster season, right? Like the first three games of the year were well. Then there was like a little slump where they were three and six, I think, or something like that. And then two or three really good ones and like two bad ones. And the last four, it's really.

really been, he's shown a lot of growth. And I just love, I love player comparisons, right? Like, I love going back in history and looking at what other quarterbacks have done there. And you look at Aaron Rogers, first season as a starter. He was six and 10. He averaged 252 yards a game, 28 to 13 touchdown interception ratio, a passer rating of 98.3. Look at Jordan Love. Eight and eight, he's averaging 240 yards a game, 12 yards less than Aaron Rogers. He has a much better, not much better. He's a better touchdown interception ratio, 30 touchdowns, only 11 picks, and he's got the identical passer rating as Aaron Rogers. And I just think that it's, like, in today's society, and rightfully so, it's a what have you done for me lately league,

but people don't let players, especially the hardest position in all sport, have time to themselves to actually learn, go through some bumps, go through some bruises, and let them develop. And I think what Jordan's love has shown easily over these past 16 games, regardless of what happens in their game against Chicago, which I think Chicago, it's not an easy test the way they're playing. It's going to be a real game, man. I'm actually very excited about that offense against the Bears defense specifically. It's a matchup we're going to break down in our preview show this week. That is one hell of a matchup. I am pumped to watch that thing. I agree. I agree. I didn't think I'd be as pumped to watch this as I was maybe 10 weeks ago. But just the way that Jordan has

played and what he has shown with the lack of skill, skilled offensive playmakers to me, that's why I enjoy Jordan Love playing, because I love the growth that he's seen. Talk about a few more stats here. Jordan Love is fifth in EPA per dropback this season, fifth among all quarterbacks in the league. The four guys ahead of him are Brock Purdy, Dak Prescott, to a time by Lolo, Josh Allen. Again, all necessary caveats. That is a team passing health stat.

But we're talking about a team with all these young pass catchers and a running game that has been uneven at best this year. It's been better with Aaron Jones back in the lineup. But if you look at some other numbers, they are fifth in passing DVOA this season. Fifth, they have a top five passing game. I thought the Packers would be a borderline playoff team. I picked them to make the playoffs. I thought they would be a wild card team. I thought they'd be a wild card team because they ran the ball well.

Jordan Love did enough. they had a solid defense. It's been the exact opposite of that. The defense has been trash again, and they have asked their passing game to carry them to this moment. And the fact that he's been able to do that with how young this group is, I think says two things. One, Matt LaFleur is a dude. That guy, I would bet my future as a franchise on that guy, and I think they justifiably have in Green Bay. Two, he has given them more than I think you even could have hoped from a production standpoint. I know it's been a little volatile. He can spray some throws. They've had a little bit of luck in some of the 50-50 balls they've thrown over the last couple weeks, but the process

has been really good. And the arrow is pointed up so, so far, and he's exciting. When you combine all of those things, it's hard to argue with what they look like right now. And even the tangible growth from the second Minnesota game from the first Minnesota game and what they looked like. It's so, so encouraging. I would probably lean Jordan Love, or Jordan Love is my answer. answer to this question. But I don't want to dismiss Gino in this conversation because going back and watching that Steelers game again this morning, that guy is playing out of his mind in some of these moments. What he is doing under pressure and some of the plays he's been asked to make under pressure. In that game, he was pressured over 50% of his dropbacks. This season, I think he's fourth from the

bottom and pressure to sacrate in the NFL, despite all the injuries they had. It looked bad in the last two games. Like it's just like no time to throw. He has no time to throw in pure drop back situations. The only time that he's had time is on early downs when they're using play action and they're using heavy personnel similar to the conversation we had about the Browns. When he's asked to just drop back, he's running for his life back there and he's been able to do it. He's been able to stay afloat despite all of that. And that's an area of his game that you wouldn't necessarily have pointed to as a strength over the last couple years. So I just think that. I just think that his ability to make some of these plays out of structure, to navigate the pocket,

and some of the splash throws that we've seen from him last week, but really over the last couple games, go back and watch that Dallas game again and some of the throws that he's making in that Dallas game. I think right now the Packers' offense is more dangerous because of their play caller and some of the other elements of who they are. But I think that on a pure entertainment level, Gino is still able to give you a show against some of these other playoff teams. So I think even if Jordan Love is the answer, Gino deserves mention right alongside him. If either of them will get in, I think they could make for a very entertaining wildcard game no matter who they play against.

Because the defenses are so bad that we might get a shootout in either one of these. You mean, you will get a shootout. I mean, if those teams get in, you're going to have to. I have to be overly aggressive. Yeah, when I went back and I watched the last two Gino games, I'm glad you brought that up because I'm like, why is he, like I'm hitting play and I'm hitting pause when his foot hits and, you know, people are one yard away? I'm like, what in the world? Like, are they just that bad?

Like, it's just, it's hard to understand. But it seems to me also because the Seahawks defense has been bad, not it seems to me, because they have been bad, they've been playing from behind. So there's had to be more dropback. They haven't controlled games with the run game or the under center play action to where. that's where sort of their bread and butter is. So he's had to be in these dropback scenarios, and he's had to make these plays. And when we talked about this pre-show,

and I said Jordan Love, and you said you were going to, you know, I agree with it. The only thing that I would say the reason, and you were leaning Jordan Love, so I get it, is why I lean Jordan Love is because Gino does have two amazing playmakers.

like like dk metcath and um what's his face the fat uh Tyler Lockett sorry I just literally just blame my kids are screaming upstairs um like he has those two guys those two guys are still dudes like top six duo in the league for me and so I think it's I think it's the trust that Gino has shown in them to be able to fire off these because I'm looking at some of these throws in the last two games and the amount of like top of he's thrown with anticipation and the accuracy that he's that he's thrown like it's been like I'm like looking at like oh no don't do this like not this like you know it's it's really impressive it's hard to do because a lot of placement is insane he's like he's been a ball placement king the entire

year some of these throws he's fitting in are ridiculously impressive and I'm with you to an extent on the receivers I I'm curious I want after we do this I'm curious about your big picture thoughts about the Seattle offense in general in the passing game. But this year specifically, I think that the offense with the way that they play, it's a lot of ISO outside the numbers type stuff with these guys, especially with D.K. And even though he's built like that, that's not what his game is. So D.K. Meckaff this year has 28 contested targets. That is the sixth highest number in the entire league.

He only has nine contested catches. of the 96 receivers that have played 20% of their team snaps, he is 75th in contested catch percentage among 96 guys. Tyler Lockett is 67th. And this style that they're playing, and there was a stat somebody put out today, I think it was Anthony Trees from PFF, about the width of formations in the NFL.

And if you look at a lot of the best offenses in the league, L.A., the Dolphins, the Niners, the Texans to an extent, it's a lot of condensed formations where you can use all of the field. The Seahawks play with the widest formations in the league, and they're asking their guys to do a lot of work one-on-one outside the numbers as a result of that. And I don't know if these guys specifically are necessarily built to play that way when you're making them make these tough catches. So even if the talent is there, I have questions about the deployment and what the overall structure of the passing game looks like right now. I don't know how you feel after watching them. Yeah, I mean, that's a good stat.

I didn't even, I mean, I didn't think about it because I was watching just really him throwing. But that makes sense because there were a lot of like spread two by two, three of ones. But I just go back to, I guess there's other teams that are playing like that. But I go back to like they're playing from behind a lot. So it's like a lot of times they're running the two minute offense to get back into games. And those are a lot of two by two, three by one formations. But that's a good, that's a good stat. I'm going to look at a little bit more.

And I don't know if this is something that's just native. to who the Seahawks are. Because when Russ was there, they did a lot of that outside the numbers pushing the ball. I don't know if that's the style of offense Pete Carroll wants to play. There's something there that I would like to look at a little bit more just because it feels like the offense requires some of these splash eye-popping throws a little bit more often than it's necessary when you consider the talent that they have. So this is something that we're going to talk about this offseason no matter what happens

with the Seahawks this weekend. What needs to change? You made some short-term bets about. wanting to compete right now. You are not the team that you wanted to be this year. They're essentially the same team they were last year. When they were a surprise playoff team, they were not supposed to be a surprise playoff team. They were supposed to be a solidified playoff team this year. And that step has not happened. So why that gap exists, I think is a worthwhile discussion about the Seahawks. And I think as much as their defense is driving it, there are

some worthwhile questions about why they play the way they do offensively. Yeah, I think it's smart. Something that we could do a whole show on, I'm sure. Well, listen, the spring, that's what the spring is for, my friend. A lot of time, lot of space. Last bit of news I wanted to hit today. David Tepper fined $300,000 slap on the wrist for throwing a drink on a Jags fan during Sunday's shutout loss where the number one pick for whom Teper gave up Darnall Wright, DJ Moore, Tyreeks Stevenson, the number one pick in this year's draft and a 2025 second round pick got outplayed by C. I understand why he was upset. Okay.

Me too. me too we hear a lot about the impact that bad ownership can have on the success of NFL teams there's so many throwaway lines about well it's this it's the chargers it's the browns well it's it's the mccaskey's in chicago they're never going to win if these are the owners of the team and I wanted to know from you somebody who's had a front row seat to some of these organizations you played for the spanosus you played for the fords in Detroit while that organization was struggling you played in Chicago as a place player, can you feel the impact that poor or unstable ownership has on a franchise day to day? I think that a smart player can feel the impact. If you are looking at it from a different perspective than most guys that are three and a half years and done, like, hey, I'm just trying to make my money. Like, I don't really care what it looks or feels like. Like, I'm just trying to go in, make a name for myself, get out. Then it's harder to realize. But I do think, that because I was in the league for 14 years, because I was with seven different teams,

because I was on the NFLPA board in a part of three separate CBA collective bargaining agreement negotiations plus an uncapped year, like to me, you're going to ask me, I'm like, I can tell you everything that feels wrong with an owner. And a lot of it, I would say 98% of it has to do with nothing football, like nothing football related whatsoever. And that's always interesting and people like, well, why? And I just take some different examples that I've been with. Owners that try to get too involved with the football side, like a David Tepper, who by the way got, find 0.000-0-0-3-1% of his net worth, which, okay.

Like, what is that going to do? And by the way, issued an apology. It wasn't an apology. He didn't apologize. He said, I'm sorry for caring too much. My biggest weakness is that I care too much, David Teper. It's absolutely ridiculous. Everything about it is fucking bullshit.

I agree. I agree with you. However, sometimes when those owners get too involved in the, football part of it, that's where as a player, you can sort of feel, whether it be in the media or in the locker room or stuff like that. Like, an owner's job is, yeah, you hire a GM and you hire a head coach and you have to have a very huge amount of trust in these two individuals to do their job. And you can have a little like, hey, but when they're trying to make football decisions

that, you know, they're just trapped here, because there have been owners that have done that. Of course there are. But I think that's the biggest thing. And another thing, like from a non-football side of it, like something is, and people are going to laugh. Because it, but just like, just take into context about what I'm about to say when it comes to just pure football players. When you're in the locker room, you know guys are making millions of dollars. You're getting paid a lot of money to play a game. And there's only 32 franchises in the world.

Like something that comes down to is as simple as food. Like you eat for six, seven months of the year, you're eating three meals a day up there. And something is like you want to save an extra hundred grand here or an extra hundred grand here. And 100 grand seems it is a lot of money. But to an owner that's a billion with an S dollar franchise, like sometimes you got to spend to win. And just like the healthy foods or the options, like I've been a part of some franchises. I'm not going to name names because, but like I don't even. want to eat. And when I eat, like, I got a stomach ache and it's just like not fresh.

Like not good food. Would you say that's the exception or would you say that's the norm? And the ones that are exceptional and have good food are the ones that stand out. The ones that are exceptional, have good food stand out for sure. I'd say there's more bad without it out. Because it's like it's glossed over as like, hey, on a list of expenses, on a list of expenses, it's like, okay, check it off. This is our budget for food. We're not going to go over. Like, I hate that. And it sounds. so bad, I think, to some, but like a good breakfast or a good lunch or a healthy, like, you ask us to do a lot of physical work. Well, your body is your number one thing. So,

so everything to do with your body outside of football needs to be taken care of the food, the hot tub, cold tub area. I've been on teams with no steam rooms or sanas. It sounds so simple, but that makes a huge difference when you're trying to get ready to play a football game. I've had teams that have yet to spend on massage therapists or chiropractors or multiple PTs in the training room or have hired doctors that they know or just cheat that don't want. All of this stuff matters. And that's the main place you can feel it is the non-football activities. Obviously, the Chargers have been one of these teams for years that have been ding for this stuff, whether it's the medical staff, the facilities, things are changing a little

bit there. That new facility in El Segundo and the practice facility is much better than what you guys were dealing with over the last couple years. I've been to that one in Costa Mesa, my fair share at times. There's a we work in the middle of it. Like there's a coffee shop where people just work. It's like an office park. It's an office building. I've been there plenty of times. It's an office building. So now they're getting a real facility in El Segundo. They're contributing to that. under Staley, they made some improvements and they spent some money on other areas. But was that a place where you could feel maybe the lack of expenditure or the lack of aggression from the owners maybe compared to some other places you played?

I mean, you could definitely feel it. But I think it became just like, that's just how the charges are where you just sort of was like, okay. Because everything else was nice. They are so like, the Spanos is like such like good, like in my opinion, like nice people. They were always like treat the players like to their faces like we flew first class. like all this stuff. But I do think like when you're in an office building for six or seven years and you're trying to find where to build a facility,

it just wears like we didn't have a sauna steam room there. And that's going to sound weird. But like that's the norm. And that's what the NFLPA is working toward and put in this new CBA. There needs to be a level of sustainability and of like you, this is the minimum level that you need to meet at all activities. And that's why I thought it was genius. J.C. Treter, the NFLPA president, put out a 32-team NFLPA-free agency report card. Yeah.

And I thought it was genius. Because, let's be real. Like when you're talking about millions and millions of dollars, if a team pays you two or three million more to go to a bad on, you're going to go. You're going to go to a bad, you've got to get your money. The money talks at a short free agency almost every single time. Exactly. However, when you are, though, dealing with middle class in the NFL between one, between like 700,000 and like a million and a half, two million, I've known guys that have said no to

$200,000, $200,000, $250,000 more to go to a better team in terms, like ownership. Like, oh, like it matters. So I think the NFLPA, that was, that was awesome. And quite honestly, what they did not only with the players, but it allowed media to understand what the players are going through. And so then the media reports it, and it's the NFL's worst nightmare. Yeah, some examples from that report card for the Chargers specifically. Nutrition F, training room F minus, to two small little things there to maybe take into consideration. So those are some of the things we're talking about.

I'm curious. you can choose between an owner that's not willing to spend as much as other owners are, or an owner that's meddlesome in football operations, but will spend a little bit more money. Which of those two environments do you think is better for an NFL organization? Oh, man. What a question. What a question. So here's, let's make this comparison. You have the Chargers, okay?

who are looking for a new head coach this off season. You have the Panthers who are looking for a new head coach this off season. David Teper shulled out how many millions for that coaching staff that they hired last off season. The Chargers would never do that based on the way that we talk about the Chargers. So these are practical examples, I think, of this question that you're weighing. I would have, I would rather have an owner that does not get into football operations at all.

Because I just, it's not their expertise. Their expertise is making. money and their expertise is setting a strategy of an organization and going out and you're having to spend on leaders of men and coaches and GMs and putting the best way around it but then I would rather have another that trusts I've heard of some bad places where like the I mean you look at the the old Washington owner yeah um like dude that's the comparison that people are going to be making about Tepper here until things turn around. Like making like calls.

I know I think we need to make like that. Like, you know, I think like, like, it's crazy. It's crazy. You can feel the difference when you're in some of these places. I've been to a lot of the facilities around the league. I've spent time in a lot of them and looking at this report card right now. I'm not even trying to be mean to the Chargers. When you're in that Chargers locker room at that facility in Costa Mesa and then you go to

Minnesota and you see what that building is like, it's two different work. And we can argue about how much of an impact that has on winning and losing football games, but there clearly is a chasm. And there clearly is a wider spectrum of what these things feel like than I think a lot of general NFL fans understand. So my last question here, how sticky is this? Just because you've been a bad owner, just because you've been a bad franchise, is this something that you have to continue doing? And the example that I would lean to, you were in Detroit in 2020. Dan Campbell and Brad Holmes come in the next year and look at what this team feels like right now. The product on the field, the vibes in the locker room, what players are saying just the day to day of how we look at and process the Detroit Lions in 2023 is such a vast departure from what it was in 2020.

So is this stuff and how lasting and permanent it is overstated if you hire the right people. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It takes one or two people to change the whole culture of an organization. And quite honestly, it doesn't always have to be the owner. And it's a perfect example of Dan Campbell with the Detroit Lions. Like coming in and just like, hey, here's the vision. And it's a little bit of the owners, the fores just being fed up of losing. Like winning cures all, bro.

Like it cures everything. You win, be like, oh, maybe I'll throw a little bit more. That was a hell of a year. That was fun. Let's throw a little bit more money in free. Let's throw a little bit more money in the, Let's go a little bit morning at massage therapist. Like who cares?

And then you get into this thing of like, okay, this is how it once was and it sucked. And we lost and we were the laughing stock. And now I'm not saying the lions, just in general, like owners. Like it was like- The lions were a punchline. There's no way around that. Like they were one of the most moribund franchises in football for decades. I can tell like it is.

I think they were just, the forwards were just so fed up. And honestly, like a Dan Campbell, they've given them everything that he's wanted. And quite honestly, it's paid off. And I think with them, you have to earn the trust. When I'm talking about Dan Camp, you have to earn the trust of the owners by getting everyone to buy in. But then the way he's a leader of men, the leader of people, he galvanizes entire buildings, entire locker rooms.

Like, you can just see, I mean, it's easy to see, right? Even if you're not in the locker room, it's easy to see in the media. He's such a likable guy. And you do that and you're in it for the right reasons. You can change some of these owners' minds. And you can get out of it just like the lines have. The Bengals are another good example, getting Joe Burrow and the transformation that's happened there.

They've thrown money around in ways they never did before. We'll see what their spending habits look like now that some of these guys are going to be getting more expensive. And Chicago, just because it's close to me, them hiring Kevin Warren as the new CEO of the organization and sending Ted Phillips, who oversaw a lot of their business decisions over the last couple decades, he's going to be moving on. And so there's a shifting collection of responsibilities within that building where you're hoping, okay, now that we've kind of put these guys in place and this structure in place,

can we have some different results than we've had over the last 10, 15 years when the previous set of leaders were there? So I think it is a little bit less permanent and a little bit less sticky with some of these situations when you get the right people in these decision-making spots. I agree. I agree. I think you can get out of it. just have to trust. You just got to trust. You got to spend a little money. I'm not necessarily saying spending money is going to give you wins, but it's got to, if you give your players,

you keep your players happy, you get the right culture in there, eventually it's going to turn around. I think the Bears and the Cardinals are two very good examples. The Bears a year ago were where the Lions were two years ago. The Cardinals right now remind me a lot of where the Lions were two years ago. And they brought in Jonathan again, they bring in Maddie Austin Ford to reset what that building feels like and hopefully both of those teams can be turned around quicker than people could have anticipated. I mean, the Bears right now are seventh and way to devoid this season. They remind me a lot of where the Lions were at this time last year, where they can't make the playoffs because of some things that went wrong earlier in the season, but in a lot of ways,

they feel just as qualified as a lot of these playoff teams do. And I think the Cardinals, though, how hard they're playing right now and how serious of an organization they feel like reminds me a lot of the 2021 Lions where they weren't winning a lot of football games because they were actively in the middle of a tear down, but their steps in the right direction, the way they feel when you watch them, the plan on offense and defense, how hard they play. And the Lions did it in two years. The Bears are on their way to potentially doing it in a couple years, and we'll see what happens with the Cardinals. It feels like this stuff, it's not a fate that you're doomed to just because the history of your franchise looks a certain way. All right, guys, that is all we got. Last show of the

regular season before we get started with the playoffs next week. We'll be back with our week 18 preview regularly scheduled time later in the week. If you have not listened to Kiefer in the Beats, really good show this week talking to Zach Jackson or Browns writer, Jeff Seabach, Nick Cosmiter about what's happening with Russell Wilson in Denver. So please go check that out. Prospects to pros, breaking down the playoff games from this weekend. Big game from Michael Pennix, JJ McCarthy, chatter.

A lot to dig into with Dana and Nate. So please go listen to that. For now, that's all we got on this. show. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the athletic football show.