The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - In The Pocket: The greatness of Patrick Mahomes, the importance of playoff experience, and the shock of Ben Johnson remaining in Detroit

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Ben Johnson surprised most the football world on Tuesday by deciding to remain with the Lions as their offensive coordinator for at least one more season. And he helpfully did so just moments before Robert Mays and Chase Daniel began recording this week's episode of The Athletic Football Show's In the Pocket. The guys discuss the ripple effects of that decision, the greatness of Patrick Mahomes, the importance of playoff experience, and how the Chiefs were able to completely shut down Lamar Jackson in the AFC Championship Game.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Chase on Twitter: @ChaseDanielSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. The athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me for this week's edition of In the Pocket. It's a long time NFL quarterback, Chase Daniel. Chase, how you doing, man? Good, good. I'm good.

It's been excellent weather out here in San Diego, 72 and sunny the last two days. So we dealt with a little bit of rain, which is not anything what you're dealing with, just freezing cold. But I feel like when it's sunny and it's nice outside, my mood just skyrocket. So I don't think I could ever live in the Midwest again. Like that weather, it's just, it's 72 and sunny in San Diego. I know we talk about a lot, but I'm looking at my window and I'm like, I can't wait to

you don't always talk about it because it's the benefit of living there. It's like one of those, it's the selling point of being there. It's the main selling point. Totally. My wife, I think it was maybe Saturday. We were getting up and it was, you know, whatever, 8 a.m. And she looked outside and there was just another cloudy, just sunless day. Drury day.

She's like, I can't do it anymore. She's like, this is that. I'm getting to my breaking point without the sun. She's from Miami. So, and she went a couple weekends ago. And she's very resentful that I'm going to Las Vegas for eight days. Even though it's not even that nice in Vegas right now, it's going to be like 60 degrees. But the fact that there might be a shot at some sun and it won't be 35 and rainy as she's trying to take the dog out.

She's very mad at me. But we're going to Mexico in like two weeks. So it's all going to be okay. That'll be great. And well, the thing about Chicago. specifically is, I mean, you could get freezing days in May. So you guys are in for the long haul, man, like four more months of it. So maybe three more months of it.

So I don't feel, I feel a little sorry for you guys, but like where we're at right here. I'm sure we'll get away every once in a while. We got a Mexico trip coming. I'm sure we'll try to go somewhere in April if it's a little bit too cold. She's going to Palm Springs. She knows how to handle it at this point. I refuse to live in Florida. So that's never going to be something that happens.

So it's an ongoing conversation between the two of us. All right. We're going to talk about last weekend's games a little bit today just because they're conference championship games. Being able to watch the tape really digest what happened and bring some context to the outcomes, I think is especially important when you're talking about games of that magnitude and there's nothing to look forward to this weekend. But we want to start with some news that broke just before we started recording this podcast. One of the segments we were going to do on this show today was about what might happen if the Lions lose their offensive coordinator, the practicalities that come with that. What does it really mean when you lose the guy at the top of that chain? Well, scrapping that one because it doesn't matter anymore.

Ben Johnson reportedly coming back to the Lions, according to Tom Pelliserro, a shocker, I think, to most people who aren't in the know and talking to these coaching agents every day, Diana Rossini, our Diana Rusini reported that this is something that had been in the work for a few weeks potentially. It was not a guarantee that he was going to be headed to Washington or to one of those open jobs. Adam Schaefter reported something similar earlier this morning. What do you make of Ben Johnson heading back to Detroit after entering this cycle, as I would guess, the hottest coaching candidate on the market?

He was the hottest coaching candidate on the market. And then, yeah, what Shephty tweeted was interesting. Like he wasn't always like promised a job or something crazy. I'm like, how? He's the smartest offensive mind out there. He's been in these meetings and these interviews for two years now. And I mean, does he just love Jared Gough that much? Does he just love the situation so much? No, because when you get a chance to be one of 32 people in the world to have a head coaching gig, you take it.

And someone was like, oh, maybe he was Shepter, like his asking price spook some teams. Well, I mean, dude, the asking price is probably 15 million. I mean, you got guys out there making $20, $18 million a year, Andy Reed, Sean Payton, all those guys. So it's just an interesting thing. I mean, when you told me before the show, I hadn't checked Twitter in 15 minutes, of course. And within the 15 minutes, I didn't check Twitter, something happened.

And I wasn't ready. And I was just like a little bit in shock because I love who Ben Johnson is. I think that he probably interviewed well. It just maybe he was asking for too much money. But I don't know. It's an interesting situation. I'm sure there'll be more to come in the next day or so. and just explaining why he didn't get a job.

But I just, I don't get it. Look, I know he wanted to focus on Detroit's run and rightfully so. He hadn't interviewed, obviously, in person for any of these guys. And, yeah, just interesting. I mean, because didn't they have the interview yesterday? Didn't the commanders, didn't they fly out to Detroit? I believe so.

Or yesterday. And they flew out, they interviewed Aaron Glenn. Ben Johnson. So maybe it was something like Ben Johnson just didn't feel comfortable with. Or maybe the commanders didn't feel comfortable with. But you got to imagine with the new hiring of the GM, second pick in the draft, all the capital, all the, it's about as clean slate as you can get as our producer, Beller stated.

And so it was a shock to me. And now, yeah, I mean, our whole conversation, which was the fourth of our show is scrap. But I do think that it's an amazing get. for Dan Campbell. And I do think that Ben Johnson is probably going to be the highest paid offensive coordinator. There's probably some of that backdoor and going, hey, if I come back, what are you going

to give me salary-wise? And they got a lot of pieces coming back. Jared Golf's probably going to get another contract. What's it going to look like? And the whole conversation we were going to have is like when a guy like Ben Johnson were to step away and go, how do you replace it, especially from a CEO-type coach? Do you promote from within? Do you go out and get somebody all that?

It doesn't matter anymore. It's a huge get, huge get for Dan Campbell and the Lions. Yeah, I mean, now it just gets to run it back. You get to run it back with the same offensive infrastructure. The personnel is probably going to be the same or better next year. This is a team with money to spend, a team with its full arsenal of draft picks, and they're in very good shape to make that offense even more potent and dangerous next year than it was last year. And if you look at the decision, I understand it last season, going to kids.

Carolina, you know, you're a team that is going to trade up for the number one pick. It's going to be short on draft capital. It's not the best quarterback draft. Obviously, what happened with C.J. Stroud is interesting in hindsight. But it wasn't billed as that. It wasn't like this class where Caleb Williams and Drake May were considered these high-level prospects. And Carolina was not in a good spot. It's an arranged marriage with a GM that is there and possibly on the hot seat.

You have an owner that is developing a very bad reputation as somebody that's difficult to work with. the Washington job didn't seem like it came with those sorts of hangups. You have a path to one of the top two quarterbacks in this year's draft, which are guys that people really, really like. You have a new front office led by a guy who, almost like your situation in Detroit, turned down other opportunities previously, but jumped at this one because it seemed like such a good job. You have a full arsenal of cap space.

You have a lot of draft capital. It's a blank slate with an ownership group that I think the people were particularly excited about. So to not take this job, that's the one that's curious to me. And I will be fascinated to hear what the reasoning was and what some of the push and the pull each direction were that ultimately led to this happening. Yeah. And I mean, other than, at least from my point of view and thinking, other than the Chargers job, which I think Harbaugh was going to get from the jump, I think this was the second best job available. And I think that they had a lot of firepower for everything that you just said.

And for everyone, including myself, we all thought it was Ben Johnson as a lock. And we thought, oh, for sure he's going to get his opportunity. Now it's going to be interesting to see what they pivot to and who they go to. That's what my question is. Are they going to continue with an offensive guy? Are they going to go Mike McDonald? They're going to go Rable, big leadership guy. Are they going to go, Dan, try to steal Dan Quinn?

I mean, those are the three hottest names still out in the cycle. I mean, Aaron Glenn obviously took an interview there as well. So who knows what's going to happen? I mean, this is wild. If you look at Washington's collection of interviews, I believe the only offensive-minded play calling coach that they interviewed outside of Eric B. Enemy is Bobby Sloke. So if they were going to go that direction, Bobby Sloak seems to be the guy who would get that job. Other guys that have interviewed there, Mike McDonald, Aaron Glenn, like you mentioned, Anthony Weaver,

who is the defensive line coach and assistant head coach for the Ravens, who has been a name that's popped up in this cycle. And in Seattle, it's Mike McDonald, Dan Quinn, Mike Kafka, Patrick Graham, Agiro Everro. those are the guys who are still available. So now Mike McDonald seems like he might have his chance between those jobs. Yeah, well, exactly. But I feel like in the commanders, you have to go offense, right? You have to go off. You're picking a quarterback at two.

You've got to turn that thing around. You got, right? I mean, with a new ownership group and you've got the quarterback whisper and Bobby Sloke, does Bobby Sloke get another interview with them now? Or do they just go with the best leader? And you hire a new hot name OC for Mike McDonald. But who do you bring with you? because all the hot OC names are sort of gone at this point.

And that was sort of something that the commanders and the Seahawks, right, going into Championship Sunday and pass the division around when they were interviewing people from the Ravens and the Lions, right? McDonald's, this is what you sort of get. Now you're like one of the last to hire and all the good OC candidates are taken up. And if you're not getting that hot name and Ben Johnson at the offensive head coach, obviously, then where do you go? It's a very good point. It puts you back into a, it puts you back into a wall a little bit because you waited all this time. You thought it was going to be Ben Johnson or

Mike McDonald. And if you probably thought it's Mike McDonald and you're going to hire him, just say you're going to hire them. Who's your OC? Like who's your OC when you're building a quarterback up from scratch? No better, in my opinion, then hiring Bobby Slick and then going and getting a big name DC, which those are already filled out. So it just put you in a bind and you're sort of the last one on the train and you sort of get maybe left with some leftovers and people don't want to hear that, but that's the truth. Right? Like all the, all the hot names are gone at DC, OC. I mean, it's, it's, it's a fascinating situation. When I look at the young quarterbacks who've been developed in the NFL, who've made progress over their first couple years and taken a step into

the upper echelon of the league, the only one that comes with a defensive minded head coach in recent memory is Josh Allen with Sean McDermott. And it's a similar sort of situation. They had Rick Denison as their offensive coordinator in year one. It was only one year. Yeah, he was an offensive line coach for Gary Kubiak for years and years and years. He comes from that system. And they replaced him after one year with Brian Dable. And it ended up working out, but that's not the most direct path to making sure that you give your quarterback the best chance to succeed.

I mean, every single other one you want to point to, Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson as a CEO type head coach. So what they did with Greg Groman, I think, was probably another example of it working out and you giving a quarterback a path because you're building something specifically around him. But I tend to agree with you that the easiest way to get there is by putting the right offensive-minded head coach in charge because then that becomes the entire direction and focus of your franchise. Well, and here's another name, too, that I keep hearing on Pat McAfee show. I keep hearing on other things. And we share an agent, so I should probably just ask my agent is Cliff Kingsbury. If they do hire a defensive-minded head coach, does Cliff get back into the mix in Seattle or like commanders? And there's some stuff that comes to him.

How much Arizona Cardinals offense did you watch over the last few years? Well, I think that was more personnel-wise. I truly think it was personnel-wise. But like everyone's saying he's a hot candidate. So does he get the job? He's like the only one that is sort of left out there as OC. I mean, unless you're bringing your own guys from the Ravens, if Mike McDonnell gets it or, you know, Dan Quinn. I mean, I don't know.

Who the heck knows, man? It's a wild situation. At this point, the guy that you really wanted is off the board. Ben Johnson was truly their number one pick. I think I would be okay saying, let's not just go offense just to do it if we don't think that Bobby Sloick is even not the best candidate, but in the same category as these other guys. If we're worried about his ability, and I don't know if this is true or not, I assume he interviewed very well because he's an impressive person. But to lead a team to reshape an organization, I mean, when you're, talking about this blank slate, it's a big job. And I think that somebody with either experience or maybe a little bit more time as even a coordinator maybe becomes a little bit more attractive. Even if Dan Quinn isn't the home run swing that a Ben Johnson or even a Bobby Sloick might be in terms of the ceiling, would you be more comfortable giving it to someone who's actually done this job before because there's a tiny bit of certainty that comes along with it? I don't necessarily ascribe to that idea. I just wonder if that could creep into Washington's thinking as they try to make this decision.

I think it does. I think it absolutely does. And I think that I'm with you 100%. I do think if Washington thinks that Ben Johnson, which I think was there man all along and something happened in contract negotiations or maybe OC hire or DC hire or staff hires, I think you do. I mean, that's a great point about reshaping an organization. Forget about just the offensive standpoint right now. Like you got decades and decades long of just like fan base. pandemonium with their past owner and three different football changes on their names and who are like so I do think it's I mean you know if you're if you're leaning that way you got to be able to to go from Ben Johnson to okay that's why I think Mike Brayble I think Mike Brayble like he's going to transform your defense and and like if he could get a good O.C and somehow figure that one out. I mean, the fact that Mike Rable isn't on there, and let's not forget, I'm telling you, let's not forget about Bill Belichick. He is still out there, okay? Yeah, do you go back to the table now a little bit because it didn't turn out the way that you wanted to.

You have to. What do you would also go back? At this point, there's only one other team that's trying to fill an opening. Who would you lose out on if you took a little bit more time to make your decision? Exactly. Exactly. No one. Maybe Dan Quinn or someone who's going to go up in Seattle.

But I do think it's interesting if they go back to the table and they just say, okay, we didn't get our guy and Ben Johnson. Let's get Belichick for a year or two or maybe three max, because that's probably always going to coach. Say a two-year deal. Hey, Bill, just come in and let's change our organization around. And do you, I don't think he gets control of the roster. I mean, there's all, there's so many fascinating scenarios that you could go with.

What about the Matt Jones development plan over the last couple of years would make you feel comfortable about handing a rookie quarterback to Bill Belichick at this stage. Do you bring Josh McDaniels back in? Well, that's what I mean. You know, it's like, I don't know. I don't know. What's more important is the organization or the quarterback perspective who you're drafting to, which would probably be Drake May at this point.

And do you want to draft him and see his development go or do you want to see a complete organizational change? And that's the question that Washington is going to have to be wrestling with. The last thing I wanted to say here, and I don't mean to throw him on the bus, I just think it points to how unpredictable this cycle ended up being. Albert Breer, in the middle of the season, I don't know if he reported this, but just wrote this for Sports Illustrated, that as all of these jobs came open, maybe eight to ten of them, the two guys that the league was certain would be head coaches in 2024 were Bill Belichick and Ben Johnson.

And now it seems like there's a pretty good chance that neither of them got a job in this cycle with all of these jobs being open. So hard to predict this stuff sometimes. It has been a very strange set of moves and set of occurrences here in the coaching carousel. Let's get to our AFC and NFC Championship game conversations here. When we started chatting this week, me and you about what we wanted to discuss on the show, the first thing that you brought up was the playoff experience that really shined through for the Chiefs and Niners last weekend.

And I was so glad to hear you say that. because I felt the same way when I was watching the Chiefs especially. And I tend to be pretty analytical and rational in the way that I think and talk about this stuff, which is kind of funny because as an athlete, I was a complete maniac. Like there was no rational thinking whatsoever. But now 20 years later, that's the lens through which I see all this stuff. But especially in Chiefs Ravens, it just felt to me watching that game like there was a composure edge on one side. The Chiefs were just composed the entire game.

They played within themselves. And just beyond that, they played with the level of physicality. Like they rose to the moment, but it never got too big for them, which I think is a fine balance to find. I wanted to ask you, as you get into these games, you get onto this stage, how do you see that playoff experience and kind of that mental calm manifest for guys in these moments? Well, I mean, you saw it in the perfect example was the Chiefs, the Chiefs, the Chiefs, games obviously like and even a little bit in the san fran detroit game but let's focus on the chiefs uh going on the road by the way in a hostile environment and like the perfect scenario for baltimore and lamar jackson and just their team and i think it starts with experience the only

way to get experience is actually playing to have experience in these in these moments and look the rookies in second year players right now on every rookie every second year player on the kansas city chiefs right now in two years is 60 and oh combined between them in the in the playoffs like if you were to take my record okay it's five and i'll mount that up to all the rookies in second years they're 60 and oh all they know is freaking winning dude because they won the super bowl last year they've obviously won three games this year and when you go on to the road it's It's all about like, hey, been there, done that, except Mahomes has never done it. Right?

He's never had to do it. And so I think his first playoff win on the road, other than a Super Bowl, was obviously the Buffalo game. And then you go on to another hostile environment versus probably, in my opinion, one of the top five defenses of the last five or six years, not just this year. And just their personnel and how they're doing it. And then you open up the game with two touchdown drives and 14 points. It's just like, okay, here's the tone. Here's the tone setter. And then Spaggs' defense closed it out.

But I think they, and I say they, the chiefs did such a good job. Just like, stay an even kill. You could see it on the sideline. And like, okay, we've done this before. It's not just another game because it's the AFC championship game. But like, we're not, we know that we got it in us to make the playoffs. We just got to play our game. And we know that the only team that can meet the chiefs, honestly, is the chief.

So if we don't make dumb mistakes, if we don't turn the ball over three times like the Ravens did, if we don't make dumb mistakes, obviously I said that, like for the four personal foul penalties, right? The Zayflowers reach for the end zone. The Zayflowers taught all these things. It just looked like the first half. The Ravens were pretty controlled. And in the second half, they just completely lost it. and it's not even forget about just what happened on the field,

like football-wise. It's just that in like this belief in you that you can actually go up there and do it. And because you've done it before and because the chiefs have played in six straight AFC championship games going to their four Super Bowl, have a chance to win back-to-back Super Bowls, like that is like a whole other season of playoff games that these chiefs have played. And so you get that experience. of playing in January and February.

You get that coaching experience. You understand from an Andy Reed perspective what wins in playoff season, and that's running the football, and that is playing really good defense. And that is stuff they've done in every single playoff game. Through three playoff games, the chiefs have only thrown the ball 12 more times than they've ran the ball. And you have the best player in the world. So the balance is there, Isaiah Bacheco, Clyde Edwards, Salare.

And that's what you go back to is just like getting these guys. They're five skill players, right? like Isaiah Pacheco, Kelsey, Rishi Rice, MVS, Justin Watson, all these guys, they stopped rotating them. Let them get that experience, a playoff experience, and they're starting to really truly click on offense, which is crazy because it's, you know, the 20th game of the year, and they're finally starting to find their stride, which is insane, but sometimes it just takes a little bit longer for other teams. When teams are new to this, right, and maybe they don't have that experience and that resolve that comes with playing a bunch of playoff games.

How do you see that? For example, you were on the 2013 Chiefs. Year 1 under Andy Reid made the playoffs. So I'm sure there are some guys on that team who didn't have a lot of playoff experience. How do you see that? Is it in the preparation? Is it in what the locker room feels like beforehand?

Is it what the sideline feels like? Is it what the huddle feels like? When you're around a team that maybe isn't as sturdy in these moments, how do you see that? Well, I just think that, first of all, like the biggest thing that I've seen just from like a pure schematic standpoint, sometimes you tend to over prepare in these moments and overthink these moments, whether a quarterback or whatever it is. I don't think it necessarily has to do with coaching. I think sometimes

you can just think in your mind like, oh man, like, you know, we win this game, we got a chance Super Bowl, and you just start to overthink things. And I think what you need to do is just go out there and play and you just need to trust your instincts, right? Obviously prepare like it's any other game And obviously the magnitude is much bigger if you win these type of games because there's 112 million people that combined watch the AFC and NFC Championship game, which is insane numbers. So you're in front of the world. But I do think like there is that nervous energy on game day that you just don't know what's

going to happen. And some people handle it better than others. And some people, you know, they feed off this nervous energy. And some people like, okay, well, you know, not so good. I think that's when you see it in these inexperienced teams is you see it in terms of penalties or dumb mistakes that you haven't made all year long or turnovers that you should. Like, Lamar Jackson, that interception that he threw was awful. Like, it was awful.

Like, didn't understand the situation of the game. He threw it into triple coverage. I watched it, rewatch it, tried to make an excuse for him. It was just, it was a bad throw. And they're only down 10. Like, like scramble, kick a field goal, and you got three timeouts. Let's go play some ball. Because their defense really, like, only three points.

the second half. And so I think stuff like that, and when I, I think it's almost like a snowball effect. When one thing happens, when you're on an inexperienced team, you're just like, oh my God. And then another thing, you're like, oh, no, like, just can't stop it. It's that momentum ball that's rolling. And I think that's, that's real. Guys that you were around in your career that handled it particularly well, who were they and what did that look like?

Well, I mean, the obvious answer is, is Breeze down in New Orleans because I was with him for five years out of my career. And he would always, he was just so calm. No matter the game, even if it was like a huge regular season game that we needed to clinch a division. And he would just, he was so routine oriented. That's probably what I learned the most from him is like in these big games. And we played a ton of big games like I have been a part of teams that have played. and huge crushing, crushing playoff losses. The Andrew Luck, 2013 Chiefs game when they came back from 28 or 27,

the Jaguars game, which they came back from 28, the top two, the worst playoff losses of all time. The 2011 divisional game between the San Francisco 49ers and what was honestly, when we were with the Saints, we had the fourth best offense of all time. The Minnesota Miracle. I was on the sideline for that. Like I have some horrible playoff losses.

And I say all that. It's just like with Drew, it was just like, hey, let's just take it like it's another game, try to get into a rhythm early. And then the whole week is the exact same. I don't care if it was we had an extra day between divisional and championship game or we had an extra day between wild card or not. We would keep that same schedule. We wouldn't over prepare.

We wouldn't fit another day of preparation in there. Be like, all right, if we're playing on a Saturday, Tuesday is a Wednesday, Wednesday is a Thursday. Thursday's a Friday and we're in the hotel on Friday and we're playing Saturday. Like we would just stay in that mindset. I think that's what he did such a good job. He just had this routine and he was a maniac following the routine so much that he just forgot about the outside noise. He forgot about everything else and just focused, put horse blinders on and just focus on the task at hand.

He was the best I've ever seen it doing that. When you guys played, let's say, in the NFC championship game in 2009, did the locker room feel different? Like the air before the game, when you're around guys, when you're heading to the stadium, does it feel different? And how does it feel different? Yeah. I mean, it's just that I think everyone's got like such great energy just thinking like, hey, we're like four quarters away from the freaking Super Bowl, man. And the whole world is watching.

I mean, 55, 56 million watch these AFC and S&C championship games. And so all of that plays into the back of your mind. no matter what you think or want to think about it, all that matters. And I just think it's such a good nervous energy. You're almost just, and there's so much pomp and circumstance, especially with the Super Bowl, definitely with the NFC and the AFC games, all this stuff. Like, and you just want to get to the game, right? You put all this pressure and all this stuff and all this preparation for 20.

You just want to get to the game. And when you get to the game, it's like, it's like the worst thing ever. Like we won the NFC, obviously. championship in 2009. But I got to imagine, from a player's perspective, it's got to be the worst loss ever, even more so than a Super Bowl loss, because at least in the Super Bowl, you got to experience it, you got to do everything, and you're probably going to have a chance to get back. But like with the NFC and AFC championship, you're so close to tasting greatness. Even if you lose a Super Bowl, like, it's just probably the worst loss of a player's career. Because even

Dan Campbell said it when he was talking after the game. He's like, look, it's not promised that we're going to be back here. We may never be back here again. It's so freaking hard to get there to where they're at. These teams are at. There's only four teams playing for two spots for one dream, right? It's one of the hardest things to do is to lose in championship Sunday. I've always said that the environment around championship games is my favorite sporting event.

You go to an AFC or an NFC championship game, and there's nothing like it. Because it's a game seven, right? It's winner go home. but it's in someone's building. That's the biggest difference between that and a Super Bowl and what the crowd is like and just how ravenous it feels in those moments. And the game that really sticks with me when you're talking about that kind of from the divisional round into the NFC championship game,

I was also at the Minneapolis Miracle. I was there. And that Vikings team, right, like Case Keenum, they weren't supposed to be there. And so they win that game. They get to the NFC championship. And when you win in that fashion, I think you start to imagine, like, we can do this. No one thought we could do this. We absolutely can do this.

And then they just get throttled by the Eagles in the NFC championship game. And that Philly team was on a similar sort of run. You know, you have Nick Foles. It shouldn't be even possible to be getting to this place. But that game was in Philadelphia because they were the number one seed. And I was one of the only times in my life where I've been at a sport covering it. And I was afraid for my physical well-bushed. being getting out of that stadium because of what that crowd in Philadelphia felt like they were

turning around like banging on the glass in the press box the place was shaking I was like this is awesome but a little bit scary so losing a game in that sort of environment the fall is just incredibly crushing I can totally understand that what is what would you say is the worst loss you've ever had which one stuck with you the longest I mean it has to be the Minnesota miracle because, man, we were playing so good at the end of the year. We finally felt like, you know, we found some footing with that offense. We found like our defense was playing well in 2017. And, you know, coming back to the Saints, I was like, oh, man, like Drew's in his prime of his career.

This is going to be a great, like, opportunity for me to go back to the Super Bowl. and we felt really, really good for whatever reason, like going up to Philly and playing them. Like we felt like we matched up really well with them. And then when you come back, I think we were down 10 or 13 or something crazy. When you come back, we started off horrible, and you put that second half drive together

and you put another second half touchdown drive together. And you're like, oh my gosh, it's tied at this point. Then you get a fourth and 10 conversion on a corner route. And then you end up scoring a touchdown or kicking a figgle, whatever half. happen and there's 25 seconds left. It's pure euphoria on the sideline. First of all, you're getting another $60,000 check if you went, everybody in that. So that's, that's real. Like everyone's paying attention to that. Absolutely. That's real. 100%. And you also are like, man,

when you get to, and then you think of like, even the like my wife is like, man, she's going to get a chance to, because she missed out on the first Super Bowl because we weren't dating in 09. And she's like, man, it'd be so cool. And then you just, it just happens. It happened like slow motion. Like, your body goes numb. You're on the sideline. Like everyone's celebrated. First of all, everyone's celebrating when there's 25, 30 seconds. And then they get a completion. They're like, oh, and they get another completion. And you're like, oh, okay, they're just running flood to the sideline. And we just miss the tackle. Right. Marcus Williams missed the tackle. And I mean, it was just like, I'm getting goosebumps. It just sucks. It's awful. It's like, man, and it's so,

it's so such a drastic end like that's it season's done we'll have we'll have when you're thinking your mind all these different things about the championship you're like no we have exit meetings tomorrow you're like wait what and then they made us come out after the game and like go back on the field for a freaking field goal kick or extra point kick that was ridiculous too we had thomas morestead lining up at like holder or not at holder but like left tackle like we couldn't get enough guys to go out there and then they finally changed it because of that game. When I was like, okay, it's over, you don't have to kick the extra point. But it just, it sucked, man.

It was, it was a tough pill to swallow for a while because we felt, every team feels like, man, you're so close. You mount this comeback and then something just wild happens, like that prayer from Case Keenum to digs. I mean, it's just, it's awful. And that Saints team, listen, it's an important moment. That Saints team was really, really good. Saints team, I think you could make an argument was one of the best rosters in the entire NFL.

Never got back there. Never got back to that moment. And that's why I think it's so important to realize that when you get there and you get that close, it's never guaranteed again. It's just not guaranteed again. And no matter how good you are, no matter how young you are, remember that 2017 Saints draft and how good that that class was and how transformative. They were a game away.

They were a PI call away in the 2019 or 2020 NFC championship game. That's right. That's right. from getting it. And so I think never got to the Super Bowl, I guess I'd say. Never got to the Super Bowl. But like that was probably even worse talking to Drew and those guys because you're like, okay, 17 ends and they were good in 18. And then 19 comes. You're like, this is our year. And they're literally, I mean, it's literally, it is literally pass interference. You were literally a pass interference call away. I mean, the guy hit him a second and a half early from getting there. And it just, yeah,

it's just, it stinks, man. It's like you're so close to steps and in the process. And then it just ends. and then Saints haven't been back. All right. Our next segment here is brought to you by Indochino. It's time for looking good out there, brought to you by Indochino. And the guy I wanted to talk about who's looking good out there last weekend was Patrick Mahomes. When I wanted to talk about the mental toughness side of this and just being unaffected by the moment, Mahomes was the guy that came to mind.

If you watch him in the first couple drives, the first quarter of that game against the Ravens, he was incredible. He was incredible in those first couple drives. And the Ravens defense adjusted. It's the best defense in the NFL. They made it hard on them in the back. half of that game, but he still made enough plays to put Kansas City in a position to win that game.

I looked up the numbers today. Mahomes has now played 17 playoff games in his career, which is a full season worth of playoff games. His numbers in those playoff games, that season of games, 4,800 yards, 67% completions, 39 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 0.23 EPA per dropback. For context, he was at 0.27. last year when he won the MVP. Sam Monson from PFF pointed out something else that was really good.

His turnover worthy play rate over that stretch is like 1.2%, which is even less than it is during his regular season games over six seasons. So this is over six years against the best teams in the NFL theoretically, and he has played at an MVP level over that stretch. It's staggering. It's probably the best six-year run that anyone has ever had in the history of the sport when you include the postseason. and it's his first six years in the NFL.

Like we're running out of superlatives for the guy, but I want to try anyway. And I want to try to zoom in on what's different about this version of Patrick Mahomes compared to the one that we saw when he came into the league. So when you're watching him play right now, what stands out to you about the way that he's grown and kind of the way that he's tweaked and altered his game over the last six years? Not every single play has to be a home run threat. I think that's the biggest thing for him is, especially this year, he's learned and he's had to evolve how to play with a championship level defense because make no mistake about it. This is easily their worst offense numbers-wise he's ever been a part of and easily their best defense that they've ever had.

I mean, top two in the entire league this year, led by Steve Spagnola. And I think with a guy like Mahomes, you don't have to show off the canon and the special plays all the time. Because I will say like Brandon Staley, weird, I didn't think I'd bring him up in this conversation. Brandon Staley did a huge study on Patrick Mahomes over his first four or five years. And the amount of turnover worthy plays that he had was, I don't remember the exact number, but it was an insane amount of plays. And there was only so many interceptions, a lot of drops, penalties, cause stuff like that.

So he was putting the ball in harm's way in the regular season. And I think if you look at just the postseason games, the number that sticks out, only seven interceptions, right, through 17 games. That's insane. Almost 40 touchdown. So he's protecting the football. He has to throw an interception seven playoff games,

seven straight playoffs. And I think that's my point is he's learned to not put the ball in harm's way. and he's learned to let the game come to him a little bit. And when he needs to make these superhero plays, which he did two or three times on Championship Sunday in Baltimore, he makes them. And he doesn't miss them. That's what's crazy is he doesn't always have it

because he doesn't need to have it. And I brought the stat up earlier in our other segment was that the chiefs have been really balanced this postseason running the football. Only 12 more passes than runs through three games. and I think it sort of let him just get under center and in the shotgun and just sort of let the game come to him. And it's not like it's like a Josh Allen thing where he's just constantly trying sometimes Josh is to make a huge play. Okay. But I do think, and you even heard it in the press conference with Spags, hey, I've had to learn how to evolve.

I've had to learn how to play a game with a great defense that Spags has. And that's a punt. It's okay. a turnover's awful, but a negative play can be a sack. A sack's fine. Let's punt it. Get the ball back. Get into a room.

You saw that because they were sort of shut out in the second half against Baltimore. I thought that Baltimore did some really good things defensively in the second half. I only scored 17 points, which is the point above what Baltimore was giving up on defense the entire season at 16. So I do think that he is at a point in his career to where even in 2019 when he was rolling, and they won their first Super Bowl. Like, he was throwing the ball around the yard. Like, it was wild. Every play, superstar play, highlight play.

I think he's reeled that in and said, hey, I don't always have to make a play if stuff's not open because quite honestly, teams have just been playing man-to-man coverage because these receivers can't get separation. Travis Kelsey was nowhere to be found in the regular season, but come to the playoffs, he's everywhere. And he's leaning on his guys, but he's also using his legs at an extremely high rate.

He's averaging almost six yards of carry in these 17 playoff games, which is wild. 81 carries for 460 yards. That's a big deal. So when things aren't covered, he's understanding, okay, maybe not in the regular season. I don't need to run because I need to stay healthy. But I'm put my body on the line when it comes to playoffs. So all those little details, they matter. And he has mastered it, man.

If you look at the beginning of his career, obviously Tyree Kill was there. And they pushed the ball downfield consistently. I mean, that was the nature of their offense. When you look at the league in 2018, we're still living in this mostly Seattle cover one, cover three world, where it's a lot of single high defense, and they had Tyree Kill. So they're just launching. It just bombs away constantly. In 2018, Mahomes average 9.1 air yards per attempt, which was the sixth highest mark in the entire league. He was fifth in the percentage of his throws that year that went 20 plus air yards.

Let's fast forward to 2023. As the entire league has transformed. to stop these sorts of passing offenses. We're dealing with lighter boxes. We're dealing with more two high shells. This is the nature of the sport and the way that Patrick Mahomes has approached it. Goes from sixth in air yards per attempt in 2018 to 30th in 2023. Goes from fifth in the percentage of his throws that travel 20 plus air yards to 24th,

from 15% to 10%. And you can feel that when you watch those first couple drives. They're just controlling the ball. He's getting the ball out of his hands quickly. It's a screen here. It's a bubble there. It's a quick completion in the flat here. And then when he has to make those superhero plays every once in a while, you can list

him off. He had the back shoulder throw to Kelsey on the first drive, which was absolutely insane. I mean, just an insane throw. The line he puts that ball on and the accuracy of that ball is absolutely ridiculous. Two plays earlier, I want to say, was the fourth and one where they sprint out, and he has to find Kelsey on the move while drifting to his right. He has a scramble on the second. drive that ends up picking up a first down in a key situation.

He's able to do all of those moments where they ask him to make a play. He's still able to do it while controlling the rest of the game by avoiding negative plays and making sure the offense is staying on schedule. And the other side of this that I wanted to ask you about, because I don't really know what I'm looking at of processing. It feels to me like his command and control with the line of scrimmage is just on a completely different level than it was even early. in his career. He's pointed out the fronts. He's changing protections. He's doing everything from

that space that makes sure the offense is in a good spot, whether it's the call, the protection, everything before every single play. So you have the most physically gifted quarterback. I think I've ever seen playing the position while also being an absolute master at every single level of the mental game now. You must have been watching some of my content on my YouTube channel. I actually wasn't. This is me just rewatching the game this morning. Dude, you hit it. You hit it right on. And I actually did on NFL network on Friday.

I did a cut to the Chase Telestrator thing. They cut to the chase. And it's just me at the Telestrator drawing up. And they wanted me to do Mahomes. I'm like, yeah, I'll do my homes. But I was like, I'm going to do how Mahomes has changed the game this year for him mentally. And we went through a two-minute dissertation on one play. and it was the Miami play where it was an incomplete pass to Michael Hardman.

Michael Hardman wasn't looking. It was cover zero. And what he did at the line of scrimmage to be able to get himself and buy himself an extra second in the pocket. It is so in depth and like football 404. Like I, you hit it right on. And I said in that segment, and I'll say it again now, I think Patrick Mahomes has done the best job of his career. at the line of scrimmage, understanding mentally what he needs to do to get the chiefs in the right play at the right time. And a lot more has been put on him at the line of scrimmage. And that play I'm talking about, I'll try to explain it because it's wild. They're bringing sawdog pressure.

They're bringing double-edged pressure. They're in six-man protection, shotgun. Clyde Edward Edwards Hillier. They're in six-man pro. They can only pick up six. They're bringing seven, though, because the Mike linebacker adds on. He has the running back in man-to-man coverage. What Mahomes is so good at and understands that, and they talk about it all the time there. When you bring double-edged pressure, you want to make the center go,

which means mic it. You want to mic it to the running back's side. So they're going to slide the line from center over is going to slide all the way out to this nickel back to pick him up. And then the Will linebacker, who's opposite of the nickel, the back has to go across and track him. And the reason you do that,

you want the back to go across and block him because the Mike linebacker's job actually is not the blitz. It's he has the back man to man. And so when he has the back man to man and the back scans across, the mic's like, oh shit, I need to go get him. Oh, wait, no, I can add

in just that extra second. It's like literally not even a second, but just that extra second he knows he has. He's a freaking, maniac, he goes back, pumps an out route versus cover zero and throws a dime to me, Cole Hardman. So he tries to rip your freaking heart out in cover zero. And you saw it again with the Ravens on the big play down the sideline, or down the middle of the field to MVS. Like that might have been over

a lot of people's heads, but I say go to my YouTube channel and watch it because you hit it right on. I literally, in my last YouTube breakdown too, is hit it. It's like everyone knows what he can do physically, but the mental aspect from him has made him a whole other player. And how terrifying is that? We're talking about he's having the best run, the best six-season run of any player in the history of the game, probably, and he's getting better. He's getting better. This is with quarterbacks, it's always so cool to watch this trajectory because early in

the game, it's why for pocket passers in this era, I worry about what they'll be early in their career because it's harder to win mentally when you're in. your first, second, third season. So you have this guy that was a physical phenom throwing to two physical phenoms during the first act of his career. And now as he's entered the second act and as he's moving into his prime and the mental side of it is becoming more and more honed, he becomes even more terrifying. Because now you're getting to this place that Brady, Breeze, Manning were in when they got six, seven, eight years into their careers. And they weren't as physically talented as this guy is. So we are dealing with a truly scary proposition with him and this team moving forward.

And I say it all the time. I'm guilty of this. It sometimes just glazes, it washes over me, right? Because it's so, the greatness. It's so unceasing that I sometimes fail to recognize it in the moment. As I was going back to rewatch that game this morning, and I watched those first couple drives, I'm like, oh, my God. Well, I think that's so true. It's unbelievable.

Like people do glaze over it. And this isn't like a plug. But like I didn't even, when I do my YouTube quarterback ratings, I didn't even break him down for the first 17 games of the year. Because I'm like, everyone knows he's great. Like everyone wants to know about question marks like Brock Purdy or Justin Fields. So I was like, you know what? I don't even need it. And I was like, you know what?

After the Miami game, I was like, screw that. I'm breaking it down. My guy was like, it's not going to get a lot of views. It got like 50,000 views because they understand now that it's like the playoff time. This is when it matters. It's time and it matters. And he shows up. It's been his best game.

It's been his best game of the year. Then his Buffalo game was the best game of the year. Now this Baltimore game I am dead set on it was his best game of the year. So you're going to get the best game of his year in the Super Bowl versus Purdy. He's going to win his third Super Bowl. It's wild. I thought the Ravens defense just to hit that very quickly and maybe why they didn't play as well in the second half. I thought their adjustments were great.

They did not send a lot of pressure in the first couple drives of the game because you don't want to do that against Mahomes. it's always dangerous to blitz him. So they didn't really. So if you look at the pass rush snaps from the linebackers specifically, they start creeping up after the first two drives and then deep into the second half. Queen and Roquan Smith combined had 13 pass rush snaps. Almost all of them happened after the first 22 minutes of game time. And they weren't just blitzing.

It was a lot of simulated pressure. There was a lot of droppers from the line of scrimmage. They're playing with those mic points. they realized we can't just let him sit back there. Because if we're just going to let him sit back there, he's just going to slice and dice us. He's going to get the ball out of his hands quickly. And they did a really good job adjusting. But by that point, the lead was big enough that it didn't end up mattering because of how good he was over those first couple drives.

Let's switch gears here. Go from last year's MVP to this year's MVP. Lamar Jackson did not have a great game in the AFC championship game on Sunday. He struggled. And obviously, we knew that in real time. They're often struggled to move the ball. but when you can't go back and actually rewatch what was happening on the back end, it's hard to provide some context about where they might have fallen short.

Now we've had a chance to go back and rewatch that game. So if you're trying to go through the reasons you felt like the Ravens' offense fell short on Sunday, where would you start? Number one, bad offensive game plan. Number two, Lamar Jackson, number three, just playoff experience wasn't there. Let's start with the game plan. What about the offensive game plan was disappointing to you? So I think that, well, first and foremost, they ran the ball 16 times.

They're the number one rushing offense in the league. That's an easy answer. They were averaging 31 points or 31 rushes per game. And Gus Edwards had three carries. His first carry went for 15 yards. He finished with three carries or 20 yards, something like that. And too much downfield stuff. Agreed.

You play a Steve Spagnola defense, which, I mean, mean, master class. Like, you've got to give, you got to give Spag's credit. Like, I'd say you give Spags 60% of the credit and then Lamar 40% of the blame, if that makes sense. Because what Spaggs did, he was constantly moving his guys around, constantly blitzing edge pressure, six different personnel groupings on defense. Is it too high? Oh, is it man? He didn't just line up and show Lamar Jackson what he was doing. Not on one snap. And I think that put Lamar's eyes. It made them doubt. It made him doubt his reads a little bit. It made him a little bit spooky in the pocket. I saw two, I saw two plays in this game that really could have maybe won them the game,

where he has guys streaking wide open down the middle of the field because of the chiefs are bringing all this and it's schemed up. But the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the Ravens can't pick it up in protection. They just don't do it. Then there's enough to pick it up. The running back with someone. The running back doesn't pick up another one. So I think those are the plays that you can't put on Lamar.

It's from like a coaching standpoint and a player standpoint. You actually got to go out there and do it. So there's a lot of different things. And I think ultimately like Lamar didn't play his best game. Like like bottom line. Because in games and situations like this, the game never got above being a 10 point lead for the Chiefs or more. So you're in the game the whole game. And so I think he pressed a little bit

when all these things kept happening and all this stuff didn't matter. I mean, culminating in the interception, which I thought was brutal on him. Like the thing that's crazy is, and I did this too, until I rewatched this play and then rewatched it again, the strip sack of Lamar totally on the left tackle. It's a touchdown down the middle of the field. He is launching. that ball, maybe not a touchdown, maybe a 60-yard game. It's a huge game. It's a huge game. And they have it perfectly schemed up, but left tackle loses. So I'm wondering, so on that play, it's a deep, deep play action concept. It looks kind of like a double corner concept, like a 77. Beckham's running like a deep hinge route to the left side and abatement's coming on a big post behind it.

Does do you, and this is maybe, I'm asking this for my own kind of edification, does he read that high to low or low to high? Oh, you're reading it high to low. When a play is called like that, and you get the too high coverage that they got, Odell Beckham's job is to sit at 15 to 18 yards, grab the safety, and then a big post over top. It's a deeper developing play. And you don't think I need my left pro to have any help, my left tackle, my all pro to have any help.

But he just loses. And as he's throwing it, it's wide open. It's probably another 60-yard gain, and they're down in the red zone. That play, he quick-sets him. The left tackle quick-sets the defensive end there, because it's play action. So he gets on him quickly, but then loses, ultimately loses on the play.

It's an interesting, I understand wanting to have the play fake there and you set up the shot, but I also think that you put your left tackle in a somewhat of a tough spot if you're going to have him quick set that guy and then have to hold on for four seconds. So that play, I think, is a good example. I'm totally with you. I thought that the Chief's defense was phenomenal. I thought they played incredibly well, but I didn't understand some of the approaches from the Ravens in this game.

The lack of quick options over the middle of the field is what I would go back to, you know, the first and foremost. There was a second and nine in the second quarter where they were in empty. They motion the back back in. The Chief Spring 6. There is not a single route over the middle of the field against the six-man pressure, not a single one. It's a lot of perimeter stuff. It's a lot of deep developing stuff. That's the play where Chris Jones walks the left guard back into the quarterback.

It's an incompletion, and then they incomplete on the screen on third down. and that was a consistent issue. And then by doing that, by making sure that you were heating them up consistently, you spooked him when they were only bringing four. There were multiple plays in this game where if he had hung on just another half tick in the pocket, they had a high-low coming open. They had an end breaker coming open. But I think that they were just playing a little bit frantic because of how unpredictable

some of those pressure looks were. And that's when you know your beat, right? If you're going to know you're, when they're bringing pressure, you have to get rid of the ball quickly. But if you're going to be in that mindset when they're not and they're dropping seven, then you're going to just constantly be making mistakes and making the wrong decisions. And that's what happened throughout the entire game. Yeah, I think the hardest thing, though, and this is to defend Mar a little bit, when you have a spag's defense that will zero you like 30% of the time, it's wild. Like they're just six-man pressures and they force you to make a lot of good pass-offs with their often. of line and all these games and loops that they're running.

It can be a little bit dicey back there because you're like, are they bringing it? Are they not? There was a third nine early in the game. He checked to a screen and they were playing drop seven cover two on third nine and it got knocked down. And I'm like, oh, we thought that was you know, that throw to Justice Selle in the flat where he did not need to do that.

He threw it in a flat. No, it was a different one. No, no, it was a different one. That one too, that one too. But the other one was Lamar. went on two after his first cadence. I mean, it did look very similar to a cover zero they brought everyone across. He goes up there, checks to a quick screen, a tunnel screen to the slot receiver.

Chiefs drop out in the cover two and they make the tackle and it's just like, okay, well, they won that one. You know, so it's like that puts a lot of doubt in your mind as a quarterback. I mean, you have to check it consistently. And that's what happened the entire game. And even there are moments where the play design actually should work. Remember that play in the second half where they throw the ball to say Flowers working against Nick Bolton and it probably should have been intercepted? That's a play where you have your best receiver, your most dynamic player is essentially one-on-one with a linebacker in the middle of the field. And Nick Bolton just makes that play.

He sticks with him step for step all the way across the field. So even in moments where the design was there, there was a play being made by a Chief's defensive player. And that happened consistently throughout the day. The only bit of context I wanted to add with the run play count, there were two plays in the first half that were RPO's that he threw that he should have handed off. And one of them would have been a monster game. There was like a GT play where they pulled the right guard and the right tackle going back to the left side, where if he had handed that ball to Justice Hill, he's still running for a touchdown. But he throws a swing to Zayflowers that gets incomplete, and now it's third and long. again. So it was just those over and over and over again. He's a little too frantic in the pocket

when they're bringing four. He probably should have handed off that RPO. And if they just hold up one half a second longer in protection, that's a big play. You know, the third down sack that he took, there was a third and nine where they had gotten it back after a holding call after completion of Mark Andrews. And he takes a sack against Justin Reed on third and nine. If Justice Hill picks up Justin Reed on that play, there's a big play to be had. So it's just everything. I don't think Lamar was particularly good, but I feel like the failings were, there was a lot of blame to go around and a lot of credit to go to the Chiefs defense because I thought

they played phenomenal. Drew Twinkle and Justin Reed specifically. I thought Drew Tranquil played. I rewatched it a second time before this show. And he just, he was one person that just kept, he was everywhere. They blitzed them a lot, but when he had to come out and make. coverage and tackles and stuff. He was all over the place. And honestly, like, he made what I thought was probably the play of the game when Lamar's ball got batted down.

He caught the ball and there was, Lamar caught his own pass. There was no one in front of him. Do yourself a favor. We watch that play. And he string, like he shoe string tackles Lamar. And if not, it might be a 70-yard reception. for Lamar Jackson because it was zero. And he made like, then they ended up scoring on that drive. Like it was plays like that over and over and over again. There was a,

the first play of the game, he was lined up on the line of scrimmage. And he set the edge against the right tackle on that play. And I was like, oh, they are coming to play today. And that's how that defense felt the entire game. The one other play I wanted to ask you about, there was a third and four on their last drive of the first half.

And the chiefs fooled him. They had like a three safety look and they rotated to cover six. And Lamar works the slant flat side. This is the incompletion of Justice Hill that I'm talking about. Lamar works the slant flat side to Justice Hill. When in reality, if he works the left side, it's against his own look and they actually have something coming open. And that to me was one of those examples of he's unnecessarily sped up there.

If he just works that and works the backside, he's got something coming open. And that just happened like four or five times over the course of the game. Yeah, that play specifically, they were lined up like they were almost impressed man, single high coverage. They bail out the too high and they're running a flat in a slant. And it's called Dragon. And that Dragon concept is really, really good versus man in single high zone. And so he didn't see the rotation post-snap. He would have, because they literally had a single high beater on that side of the dragon and a shell, two-high-beater on the other.

And honestly, that slant, I've seen them run these slants. They have a huge big play potential. if you catch and run. And so he worked that side and was able to get back. And it's just the doubt that Steve Spagnola's defense puts in your mind. That was a situation, though, where they motioned and nobody followed the motion. So I think he probably should have known that it wasn't man in that specific situation. And again, just very quickly works the wrong side.

And it's incomplete and it's a punt. So you stack up eight of those over the course of a game. And that is enough when you're playing against Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs. So I don't think that there's anything. inherent about Lamar in the playoffs or about this Ravens team in the playoffs that you can really hang on to moving forward. I don't think this says anything about their ability to be a good playoff offense next year. I think, again, it was just a perfect storm of three or four factors coming into play, including playing against a defense that was very well suited for this moment and

a game plan that I don't think was well suited for the defense they were playing against. I totally agree. I totally agree. I think it's just, it, it's, it's just, it, it, it's, it's, it, it's, Because that narrative of Lamar is out there. And he's two and four in the playoffs. Hasn't won the big game. He's got two MVP's probably under his belt. And you even heard it from him. He was just saying,

hey, like I'm getting too old for this, man. I need to win a Super Bowl. And this, in my opinion, was probably his best year because of that defense

and the way it was playing. All right, guys, that is all we've got. Really appreciate the time. Next week we got the Super Bowl. You will be in Las Vegas. We will be in Las Vegas.

I don't think we're doing the show live though. We're going to do the show maybe a little bit early, but I will probably see you there. So very excited about that, very excited about Super Bowl week and all that comes with it. We will be coming your guys' way with plenty of shows next week. So keep your eye out. For now, though, that's all we got. Appreciate you, listen. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.