The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL - In The Pocket: Trevor Lawrence shines in win over Bills, Jordan Love struggles in loss to Raiders, the Patriots disaster, and gameplanning vs. playcalling

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Trevor Lawrence showed in Week 5 how and why he can be special. Jordan Love, meanwhile, struggled in a way that is giving rise to consternation in Green Bay. Robert Mays and Chase Daniel dig into that, and more, on this episode of The Athletic Football Show's In The Pocket.Follow Robert on Twitter: @robertmaysFollow Chase on Twitter: @ChaseDanielSubscribe to The Athletic Football Show...AppleSpotifyYouTube Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the athletic football show. Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Joining me for this week's edition of In the Pocket. It is longtime NFL quarterback, Chase Daniel. Chase, how you doing, man? What's going on? Good, good.

You're traveling, I see. You're running around. Glad we could do this show. I'm just sitting here waiting around. You guys are having all the fun in New York or something at a meeting, man. It looks awesome. Yeah, I don't know if all the fun is the right way to describe it. We got some athletic meetings this week in the New York Times building,

so that's where I am right now in my New York hotel room. I've gotten this road show podcasting thing down pretty good. I got my little lights. You got my camera. So yeah, you know what? It's important for me. It's important to me for this to sound good and to look good no matter what. I say that and I forgot the chord that makes my mic sound good on the Sunday night live stream.

But typically I know how to do this at this stage after doing it for about a decade or so. The funniest part is when you walk into a hotel room, you never know what the setup is going to be. So I don't know what the desk is going to look like. And I now have smaller lights, but I used to have my huge lights from my desk at home. So I used to have to figure out like a way to put them on the desk that I was in. And sometimes it involved like stacking a trash can on the desk in the hotel. So the different apparatus, apparatus, I guess is the plural of apparatus. The different apparatus that I have had to kind of pull out here on the road at various times.

I think you'd be impressed. It's like, McIver shit. Yeah, you're like, you're like a pro, dude. I'm like, I got this whole, like, I wish I could like turn the camera and I'm not going to do it because I'm still like a newbie and a rookie at this. But like my setup here, I have so much shit I don't need. And I'm just like trying to figure out like what looks best, how to do it. So we're getting into a little rhythm here if you've been watching us every week. And I think that it's just going to continue to get better.

That's the hope. That's all you can ask for. We're going to dig at some fun stuff today. We had some notable performances this week that I think have been the source of a lot of conversation. And we're going to dig into a couple of those. but I want to start with a notably good performance from last week. And that's the way that Trevor Lawrence played against the Bills in a huge win for Jacksonville. And I wanted to talk about Trevor with you because we haven't discussed him at all on this show.

And, you know, Nate and I talk about Trevor and the Jags a lot, probably an unnecessary amount. There's no reason why. I just happened to have watched all their games for one reason or another this year based on circumstance. They played a couple London games. And we're big fans of his game. And I think that we see. a special player and a top tier quarterback when we watch him play. But I always

like kind of getting outside of my little bubble and the stuff that we talk about and get some perspective from someone who knows what he's looking at. So when you went back and really studied him in that game against Buffalo, what were kind of your first impressions of him when you dug like one layer deeper than you probably had before? Yeah, I mean, listen, I had a front row view

sort of for his coming out party last year in the wild card game. So when you decided that we were going to do this or we decided we were going to do this. I was like, oh, man, I really don't want to watch them because I still got that bitter taste in my mouth.

I didn't even think about that. I'm so sorry for making you relive that. That's on me. I know, I know. But honestly, like, digging into it, I was super impressed. He's playing fast. And honestly, I don't know if it was that Jaguar's offensive line

or, like, Ed Oliver looking like an all pro on every single snap. But, like, the dude was under pressure all day long. And it wasn't even like he had a chance to even hitch on some of these like dropbacks and three steps out of gun. So they had their hands full at front. But the way he played, I mean, the opening drive was awesome. And then even the two minute drill was awesome. You know, some fumbles in the high red zone, which would have led to points, which would have been an even bigger margin of victory.

Obviously, you got to clean up. But I was impressed. I mean, they ran 91 plays. Yeah. I was like, 90, I said, 91 plays with three turnovers. Like, that's, that's an astronomical number. So I'm not quite sure how they ran that much because 91 plays is insane. So they were crazy on third down. I think they were seven to 10 on third down in the second half. He made a couple hero throws on third down. I want to say they had 29 first downs over the course of the game. They really controlled the ball in that game, which I think is important because even if their defense had some nice moments in the first half, you don't want to give them. that guy that wears number 17 for the bills any more chances than you have to. So I think their ability to kind of control time of possession and just control the pace of that game was really important. And when I wanted to do this, this is such a stupid question.

But I like asking these sorts of questions because I think too often in NFL media and just this world in general, football is so complicated and so complex that general fans and even people who do this for a living are not always good at articulating. why is ex-player good? What is really special about this guy? When you watch him playing, you look at his traits, why is he good? And I think people's understanding of Trevor Lawrence is that he was the number one pick in the draft. He has a physical skill set that I think is enviable for anyone who doesn't have that skill set

a quarterback. But the performance so far has been turnover heavy. It's been a little bit inconsistent at times. So I feel like people look at him as maybe somebody that's gifted but still is pretty far down and pretty far away from the elite quarterbacks in the NFL. But when you watch him, what's specifically about the way he plays the game stands out to you? Well, the first thing I always look at for a quarterback in any offense

is just how fast he plays. Is he trying to process information as he goes? And you can tell there's some quarterbacks out there, won't name names, we'll get into it different shows. But their process is just a lot slower than others. They hit their back foot and they're still stuck on number one. even if the coverage dictates to go somewhere else, if that makes sense. Sure.

And it's hard to watch. What I saw, and I played in this offense, this Doug Peterson offense, it's a little bit different, but I was with Press Taylor and Doug Peterson, you know, Press Taylor was my quarterback assistant coach in 2016 in Philly. And then I was with Doug for three years in Casey as an OC and then a year in 2016 as a head coach. So I know this offense. And this offense, I was just impressed with how. just how well he got through reads, how fast he got through reads. I mean, a lot of this,

a lot of this stuff in Doug Peterson's offense and this, in this offense with Press Taylor, is you're, you're just sweeping the board, reads, right? It's not like, hey, pre-snap, if they do this, we're going to do this, or post-snap, if they do this. There's some plays like that, but a lot of it is sweep the board pure progressions, and honestly, it allows quarterbacks to play a lot faster. So you might be looking at one, not open, two, not open, three, not open, not really caring about the coverage as much, more so just getting into a rhythm with the offense. And that's exactly what I saw. I mean, I wrote this down on my notes. I was like, there's so many different play concepts as an offense that they gave the Buffalo Bills,

a bootleg, a misdirection, a sprint out, a quarterback run. I mean, I was impressed with his legs the few times he took off in that game and got down. Deep play action shots, quick game, different formations, it's a very intricate offense. So you can tell he's really bright and really smart. So I think that to me is like the number one thing when I'm looking at a quarterback trying to take the next step is, first of all, does he play fast? Second of all, they have the skill players, man. Travis Eton, like the best game of his pro career that game. And it wasn't even like they could run the ball. I think it was like the middle part of the game other than like two or three drives. They had a ton, which I'm forgetting someone because they had 91 plays. But there were some times

where it was just like, hey, just three yards, three yards. And then he busts one. Or like, you know, he was getting pressured in the pocket in route concepts to the normal fan might be coming open down the field, but he's getting such a rush where he just has to find, you know, Travis in the flat. Just right away, just check it down. Like just don't even take a sack. Don't take a negative play. And obviously the turnovers are the negative plays. But on the actual dropbacks where he is getting pressured, he understands the clock in his head is going off. He's able to get through progressions and down to his checkdowns. The speed with which he plays, even when their offense was awful in 2021, you saw some of that. You saw his command in the pocket, his understanding of that space. I think he has the

six fastest time to throw in the NFL this year. And that's even down from what it was last year. He just plays so, so quickly. And you talk about that formula of they break a run every once in a while, but it's not always consistent and efficient. That's what it felt like last year. And that's kind of what was encouraging about watching their offense against Buffalo is that you saw some of those elements of what they were in 2022 when they really were rolling in the second half of the season. They had an explosive run game, even if the run game wasn't efficient. And that's what you saw on Sunday. The misdirection in all of the different ways they get him on the move, that is an element of this offense that really wasn't present, all the keepers and the boots, under the old kind of version

of what Doug Peterson and did in Philadelphia. It wasn't a huge part of who they were. And I think dug and press in their time away from the Eagles, looked at some of the stuff that was happening around the league and thought, this works for us. Our quarterback moves really well. We can incorporate more of this and they have. And then that's the stuff that is familiar. That's the stuff we saw last year. It's nice to see that back. The difference that we didn't have last year when watching the Jags is having that dude on the outside who can just consistently win those one-on-one matchups and not even just consistently win them, but consistently give your quarterback an outlet in those moments. Have a guy that your quarterback believes is going to win in those moments. And when I

watched the connection that him and Calvin Ridley had during that game, that to me is what felt fresh and new about this offense and what I think gives them potentially even another layer this year that they didn't have last year. Yeah, I mean, I love all the skill players that the Jacksonville Jaguars have. I mean, it is, they are stacked at receiver. They got a lot of crap a couple years ago for spending so much on free agency and receiver at Christian Kirk, all those guys. Like, they're, they're legit. I mean, they have. legit options at receiver. Zay Jones, even, on the back in line, that catch that he threw high.

I mean, that was, he got through his fourth read in about two seconds and was able to, like, that catch was amazing. But you go back and you look. In the throat, too. Even getting that ball off from that angle was ridiculous. It was insane. It was one of the coolest touchdowns I've seen this year. And it didn't look, it didn't look like pretty getting, but he, but if you just look

like it got through it and then he's getting smoked in the head while he's hitting and just a high, high ball. but you go to Calvin Ridley and I wrote this down and like so many deep comebacks like the dude because they can trust them to throw it and they have to trust his speed and they took a couple shots down and Phil didn't hit it

all that does is it moves defenses back it backs defenses off and he was throwing these deep comebacks I mean rarely do you see anymore like I wouldn't say the comeback is dead but there's not these like Dan Marino John Elway just dropping back throwing 20 yard comebacks to the

field. I saw like four or five in this game and I was like, I can't imagine. I mean, I can't. I don't know the last time I saw that in a game so many times. And this is off just straight dropback. It's not like your under center play action block it up. He's dropping five hitching a ball, letting it go early. And Ridley's just come back. And I'm like, dude, that's sweet because that's like old school football, but it also shows his arm strength. And it also shows the speed that Calvin Ridley has. And they were being really creative with how they got the ball to him. They were doing. jet sweeps, they were doing screens, they were doing quick game, deeper routes. So you can tell, I mean, this is a really big signing last year for them that, you know, obviously everyone knows

what happened with his suspension and gambling, but this was, this was really cool to see for them. What it reminds me of is the connection that Stefan Diggs and Josh Allen have, where you see so often where there's running those hitches and comebacks on the outside. At any time he thinks he even has a slight matchup advantage, it's just an easy button to press over and over again. So if I can make sure, If I can just ensure that I'm able to kind of pitch it to him outside the numbers because I know he's going to win that. It's such a reliable thing within the offense that I think can really calm down a quarterback and let him know that he always has a consistent outlet. And that's not what they had last year. If you look at what they had last year, the number that we threw out when we were doing the preview for the Jags,

I believe they had the fewest percentage of their throws to the single receiver side in the NFL last year. All of their throws were schemed. If you looked at it and it was a three by one, everything was rubs and picks and just making sure that they were creating separation for a lot of those guys in part because they saw a lot of man coverage. Well, now, if they're going to see man coverage, they've got a much easier answer that is a much simpler decision for the quarterback to make to go along with all of those scheme touches that they can create for everyone else. And that mix when it's really rolling is very cool to watch. I just want to hit back on like you were like, hey, it's easy pitch and catch. And but it, but it's really like these deep comebacks. It's easy pitch and catch for those guys.

It's not in general. That's why I want to say because like to the fans like that it, they make it look easy. Yes. I'm telling you right now, like it is not easy to throw an 18 yard comeback to the field on time and in rhythm why you're getting smoked in the head. So it just speaks to like I'm, I'm almost like saying your point is like very good because it's like, man, it makes it look easy. but it's not. And that's what's so impressive about the whole thing, especially because the bills,

I don't remember under Leslie Frazier, the bill's defense doing so much pre-snap. They're bringing two to a side, two to a side, all this stuff. And so Sean McDermott, you know, comes in, is obviously running the defense. And it's one of those things where, hey, like they had their hands full up front with protections. And he's getting, like, I'm talking about Trevor Lawrence.

He's getting protections fixed. He's doing all this stuff pre-stance. You can just tell he has a really, really good command of the huddle and of the offense. The fumbles, okay? This is my concern with him because this is a continuing problem. It's what happened last year. They were really efficient down to down, but this is more in the first half of the season. It slowed down in the second half of the season.

But they had trouble turning the ball over, and it was one of their biggest issues. And he tends to put the ball on the ground more than you would want. how does that get addressed within a building? Is that just a quarterback coach being like, listen, you don't have to stop doing too much. Just take it easy, take a breath. Like, what is that conversation like when you have a quarterback that's playing really well outside of a couple ball security issues here and there? Yeah, and he's still getting used to, I mean, even though he's going in,

he's still getting used to the pocket in the national football. I mean, it takes a long time. These guys are coming after the ball every single snap. And I think every time that we've had sort of maybe an issue or it's just like, hey, just just ball security. Like you know, like I'm not going to overcoach you. Just ball security. But it seems to show up in like the most like unopportune times. Yes.

Trevor Lawrence in that game because they had six points wiped away from turnovers. Now, and then like the first one, I'm like, okay, like he got swiped. I get it. He's trying to make a throw just the left tackle loss on that one. The second one is what was concerning to me because it was. was a bad snap and he tried to pick it up. It's just like, don't, it's like, don't make a bad play worse. Like, that's the biggest thing. Like, it might be a horrible play and it might be a horrible snap and we're going to lose 20 yards. Just fall in the ball. Like, just get the ball.

And it's like, if you can make, like, we rate plays in the quarter of rec room on like minus zeros or plus plays. Okay, minus plays are like bad plays, like an interception, fumble, turnover, whatever. zero plays are like, hey, you didn't do anything bad, you didn't do anything great. That's okay. You're going to have a lot of zero plays, but that's fine. That's good. Like, even these some completions, it's fine. And plus plays are like these big chunk plays, big third down conversions, whatever. Like, he's got more of these minus plays than he does. Like, you want to have like no minus plays. And it's going to happen. But like just live in the zero world and try to make, because he did make some hero throws, like you said. But like, just know when,

the journey's over. Like, that's what I've always been told. It's like, as a quarterback, it seems so easy. Just know, like, hey, there's the difference between getting another yard, which you don't need and getting your head knocked off. Like, just know when the journey's over, get down, hold on to the ball. And I guarantee you that's the thing. Like, this could have been a little bit more uglier than it really seemed

because they had two red zone turnovers. I mean, it's just part of the process, but it is something that continues to rear his ugly head with Trevor Lawrence. one question that I have about the pure progression stuff compared to kind of cutting the field in half. It puts more on the quarterback, I would assume, where you're asking more of him in those moments. Are there benefits to it that are worth putting more on the quarterback's plate? What is the upside of playing that way if it's going to make the game a little bit more difficult on the quarterback down to down? I would disagree. I would disagree in a way, and I'll explain because at least playing,

quarterback, I would think, or I know, at least what I feel, I love pure progression. Okay, let's go, let's go to pre-snap read. Nowadays, defenses are like, hey, you got a cover two-beater here, you got to cover three-beater here, and your man-beater, you need to alert to it. Okay, so there's a lot going on. You can't pick that out before the snap anymore. You can't do it. Yeah. I mean, I'm going there, and I've seen literally every possible defense you could possibly imagine in 14 years. I'm going through in some of the Buffalo stuff and they got like they have trips to the right and they have Jordan Poir and and and the linebacker to the left are like free safety will linebacker and I'm like oh I'm I'm I got to make my mic protection to the wheel so my back comes and scans across for the free safety and I'm like okay

it's either pressure or cover like three week which is like the rotation down week and all of a sudden they're running back to the middle of field and then they're bringing nickel and Mike and I'm like like, if you're a quarter, like, how do you, it's just so much of a game. And so I always enjoyed pure progression plays because obviously like pressure nixes it. You have to find your pressure answer and so be it. But so many people move on the snap nowadays and are so good at disguising. I saw multiple times in games this week, there's a free safety on the ball on the weak side of a trip formation. He runs back to single high safety. I'm like, coach, What do you like dude and he's going up and he's defending high posts because he's getting there.

They're just crazy speed. So for me I always. The Jax tried to do that against the Texans. That was the player where they tried to do it against Texans and the Texas hit that big play on them. And Texas hit the big play. Exactly what I'm saying. So defenses have gotten so complex in their pre-snap shifts in motions and what they try to see. The whole thing like Brandon Staley was always good at like I always want to show you something different than what you are pre-snap like in post-nap.

And that's how it always is. So as a quarterback, I was like pure progression plays. Just sweep the board plays. Hey, it doesn't really matter what the coverage is. Look at one. Is he open throw it? If not two, throw it. It sounds so easy.

It's not. You have to understand coverage structure with the post-snap rotation of safeties. But it also just gives you a way to be like, all right, man. Like, I really don't care what you're playing in the back end. I'm just going to run my offense. And I'm just going to go as one open. No. open? No, it's three open? Yes, okay, go. All right? And know where my problems are on each play. So I would, I am of the family. Like, I enjoy the pure progression plays. You can't have pure progression plays every single play, right? There's, there's two or three different types of like progressions for quarterbacks, but those to me personally are my favorite.

Let's move on, talk about a more troubling quarterback performance from this week. And that is what happened with Jordan Love against the Raiders after a pretty hot start for the Packers offense. In terms of explosiveness, even if you, even if you, look back at the first few games they had this season, you know, they were up near the top of the league in EPA per dropback, which is big plays. But they were middle of the road in success rate. So I think they were really feasting on some of those explosives that they had hunted out over the first few weeks. And as that's come back to Earth, I think we've gotten a more accurate read on what their offense looks like and what Jordan Love looks like in that offense. So going back and watching that Raider game, what did you see specifically that you think they're struggling with when they're dropping back to throw the ball.

Well, they miss Aaron Jones. Let's just, I mean, it is, they miss Aaron Jones and they miss all their offensive linemen. They've had so many offensive line struggles and different people playing. And it just looks like they're just absolutely not in a rhythm right now. And it's hard to pinpoint just watching that game because you watch the first two games, which I did, because I've done some breakdowns with them or on them on YouTube. And he looked really comfortable in the offense. The plays were working.

it was he threw six touchdowns in two games. And the last three games, for whatever reason, maybe they've started to figure out, defenses started to figure out like what's happening or maybe, I don't know, a little bit of regression. But when you have that many people in and out in the five-game span on offense that they've had, they've been without some receivers sometimes,

they've been some, without some offense of lines. So you really don't have the starting 11 playing at once. And Aaron Jones just, I mean, I'm telling you, it makes a huge difference. because teams aren't going to just place like too high coverage every single time. And honestly, give credit to the Raiders. Like, they stuff the run game. I think Dylan ran for like three yards of carry.

I mean, it was good. So they sort of going into the game plan, they ended up saying, hey, we want Jordan Love to beat us throwing the ball. And they gave some outside completions here and there. And he took some shots, but he missed some shots. And it's just, it wasn't, it wasn't a really efficient performance at all. The way that, so first drive they come out, and they're using heavy personnel in the way that the Packers often like to use heavy personnel. And I'm sitting there like, oh, wow, it's first and 10, and they're playing nickel to their 12 personnel. I'm like, all right, well, we'll see, why can't you run the ball?

And they were running the ball pretty efficiently over those first couple drives. But I think the third and the fourth drive, they had negative runs right at the start of the drive. Just Max Crosby blowing up plays. And now you're sitting there in second and 12. It's third and 12. You get off schedule. So I think that's exactly what we're talking about with the offensive line is banged up. You've got new pieces in there.

The tight ends are young. And so some of their, the asks that you're making of them in the run game, I think, are still going to be a process. Like Luke Musgrave is a really good athlete. I think he's going to be a plus receiver. But that, I think, is going to be an ongoing process. And then again, no Aaron Jones. So some of those efficient runs from AJ Dillon that are going for four and a half, five yards

on those first couple drives, those are potentially explosive plays if Aaron Jones is in the game. And now you're putting more on the quarterback. So I was surprised when I saw them running the ball so efficiently over the first couple drives. I was like, why didn't they just stick with this over the entire game? And then you watch the negative runs. And so that three yards of carry, the journey to that three yards of carry was fascinating because it's not three yards every single play. And so them being put in negative scripts on some of those drives, I think asks a lot of him.

And there were a couple plays specifically that I wanted to ask you about where they're showing something and then they dropped back into some version of like Tampa 2 where there's the post runner and they were trying to hit some plays into that area of the field and he just didn't look equipped with answers in those moments. So to me, the untrained eye, it feels like in moments where he gets a little bit spooked because he didn't know what the coverage was pre-snap, he's struggling to find the right answer when the initial plan within the play was not there. That's exactly right. And sometimes sometimes, you know, when you're planning for an offense to go out, like an offensive game plan,

and you go against like the Raiders, I don't know what the Raiders do in terms of like percentage breakdown on shelf or not, but it looked to me that all these beaters, these cover two beaters weren't there. So I don't know if that was a Raider saying, hey, look, let's just play some more cover two against Jordan Love, have corners come up, like make them run the ball, be good about it. it, but it seemed to me like almost like the Raiders were saying, hey, we're just going to be in cover two. We're going to be in that Tampa two where that post runner 41 runs through, which he's very athletic. But there were a few times you look back. They had a dagger behind it where you're just clearing out the mic that he missed on one of these throws. And he's trying to throw flat routes

into cover two and stuff. And honestly, it comes down to play design. Like not every play's design for cover two. I saw a lot of that cover two shell look like you were talking about. And so a lot of it's not on, Jordan, you might not even have a good checkdown over the ball, whereas a lot of their checkdowns, at least in the first two games that I watch in this game, a lot of it was to the flat and not great versus flat. You still might get two or three yards, but obviously, like, those corners are clouded up. You're not, you don't want to be checking the ball down on flat routes. So you might have to hold it a half second more and Max Crosby gets to you, or you might have to throw it down field a little bit more. And so I don't know if they were super equipped to

beat cover two that game. And so I think those are those plays you're talking about where I'm just like, man, like it's, it's difficult for a quarterback because we've been in those game plans before, man. Like we've been in where we have, um, you know, we're not, we're expecting like 10% cover two. Okay. And a team's like 40% quarters, 30% you know, cover three and 10% man, 10% two. So obviously 70% of our game plan is going to be quarters beaters and single high beaters. And when a team goes rogue and plays 50% cover two, well, you only have five or six plays that are cover two beaters and you're sitting there like, dang, like we need to get our cover two beaters in. And that was something, a story about it, that was something that I thought Andy Reed did an amazing job at

the three years I was there and continues to do. So they have their normal game plan. And it's not as, it's not as crazy amount of plays as some people seem. But it like, I wish you could see his call sheet because like front is awesome. It's like a mad genius. You flip it over and they've got like two minute red zone, but he always, always, always for some reason was like, hey, what are our answers versus cover two? Because a team could just pop cover two and there's there's only certain past plays that are good at. And he'd have a box up in the top right corner or top or bottom right corner and it would say cover two beaters and he'd have like 30 plays listed. And I was like, that's genius and they aren't like some crazy plays we haven't practiced. It's all the cover two beaters we did in training camp that we can easily get to versus cover two. And I thought that was always really, really cool. I'm wondering why coaches don't do that more. I was looking at some of the numbers when you were talking because I was actually curious looking at some of the coverage stats. So the Raiders play about 35% man on third down, which is not atypical, right? Like a lot of teams are in that 35 or so raid on third down. Against the Packers, they played about 17%

of their third down snaps in cover two, which is significantly more than normal. They played 58% cover three on third down, 8% man. So you go from playing 35% man on third down and trying to have some of those man answers to a team that played almost exclusively zone on third down. And I think you saw some of those issues creep up

where he's dropping back and this is like, this is not what I had anticipated. This is not what we plan for. I don't have the right answer to this. Do you think that's a struggle of coaching or do you think that's a struggle of the quarterback not being able to pivot in those moments? That's such a good question because obviously coaching, you want to be able to have the perfect play call at the perfect time for the perfect coverage.

You know how much, you know how many times that happens in an NFL game? Like three. So, and I go back to like, let's talk about, like, this is such a good discussion because let's go back to like, during. the week. Okay, like for the people that don't understand, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's the ones and then there's the scout team. Okay. The ones get every single game rep. Okay. So if I'm the two and on the back out, I'm not running my offense at all. I'm

running scout team for the starting defense and then like take for instance the chargers. They're running, um, like Justin Herbert's running the starting offense. Okay. Do you know, like you probably have 40 plays on Wednesday, 35 plays. This is, is the starters, okay, that they're reps in different periods, 35 plays on Thursday and 20 plays on Friday. So let's just call it 100 plays during the week that you're going to be practicing your game plan and it's carted up and the defense is carted up, scout team defense. And hey, this, we're going to scout it up exactly what we think because we have a cover three beater and the scout team defense, you're going to play cover three and you're going to play cover three exactly how

we think that, say, we're playing the Raiders. The Raiders are going to play. And we're going to run this play and it's going to be wide ass open. Okay. So take that 100 times. You know how many times in a game that you call a play as an offensive coordinator or a quarterback coach or whatever, whosoever's calling the play against that same look? I mean, it is like maybe, maybe once a game. And that's when you know, it's like that those are those we got them moments, but those don't happen very often. Once a game. So like that's what I've always. talked about quarterbacks, and I can't speak to Jordan because quite honestly, there's not enough tape on him yet. This is his fifth start, six start, whatever it is. And there's not

enough tape on them, but the quarterbacks I've always been around have always been really good in the gray. What does that mean, Chase? What does the gray mean? Well, so much of it coaching is black and white. Do this or do that. Okay, here's what's going to happen versus cover three. You're going to throw it here. Here's what's going to happen versus cover. You're going to do it. That never happens. So don't be in the black and white Live in the gray. Like if something else happens, okay, so what?

Just make a play. Like, that's where you want to be as a quarterback and the best people I've been around, the Drew breezes of the world, Justin Herbert, even Alex Smith. Like, the dude within the offense was just like, okay, cool.

Like, it might not be black or white, but living in the gray means it might be a little murky, but I'm going to make a play. Like, that's what I want to see Jordan Love get to. You said five starts. there's already some initial panic. Panic may be a strong word. There is some uneasiness, I think, among the Packers fan base after watching these first five starts. A team that has had 30 straight years of Hall of Fame quarterback play essentially is not used to this sort of

feeling. As a lifelong Bears fan, it's been very fun to watch for me, like them having to live this life and just some of the uneasiness that it creates. We have an interesting situation with Jordan Love, right? The way they extended his contract, he has a $7 million cap hit next year. They could potentially move on from him after this year if they wanted to. It's very, very early to start having any sort of big picture conversations or come to any sort of definitive conclusions about that. When you're thinking about him five games in and what his future looks like, are you a little bit concerned about what that may look like, how it may unfold, or are we in a place where it's just way too early and patience is probably the thing that you need to preach?

I think it's way too early to tell. Patience is definitely what you want to preach. And I think the Packers knew that because we were having this conversation off camera. And it's very interesting to me because now in a day and age where you have to play and play well or you're just written off right away, like to me, that's not fair to the young men that are out there like one of 32 in the world playing the position. And listen, I'm all for it. Like I'm part of the meeting now. If a guy, if a guy's play needs to be criticized, like I'm going to be real. with you like like he needs to play better however i don't think we're in an environment right now

that's really fair to a lot of these guys that are trying to find their way like you look at like even um like josh allen josh allen's first year in the league dude no like i was like nope not happening like to me that's why i was like and i was like one of the and i was still playing and look at him now he's like top three quarterback in league like some guys take longer to progress even Jalen Hertz is another great example. Justin Fields is starting to trend that way. I know you like that. I wanted to bring that up.

But stuff like that, like I just think it's too early to tell. Now, it is, to me, it is interesting to me that they did the contract the way they did. And if for some, like he's got the whole year. Like there's no talk of, like they're going to see what they've got. But say, for instance, they meet in. February, if they're not in the, or March, if they're not in the Super Bowl, and all the minds of the building, the floor is in there. And they're talking and be like, hey, man, like, I don't, I just don't think Jordan loves the answer. Okay. So you got them on a seven and a half million

dollar deal, which is for the next year, which is a very, like, it's the high paid backup market. So you've got a really good backup quarterback who can stay with the team. You're not like cap strapped. And you can go get a, go get a world beater if you want. Because the way they've structured a contracts, They ate it early and they have some financial freedom in 2024. So I think the Packers are in a really good spot. Obviously they want to win. But their mindset and their thing is like, we got this year, man, to just like let him grow.

Like we got to put the people out there to let like him go try to show who he is, make his way in the league. But it is, you look back on the contract and you're sort of saying, all right, like the Packers probably won this one because they paid him a decent number this year. Nothing crazy compared to starters around the league. You got 13 million guarantee. And so if you're trying to split the difference between what he was going to make and what the fifth-year option is, I think it's a kind of inspired decision by the Packers because you're avoiding the situation that the Giants did with Daniel Jones,

where, okay, we're going to decline his fifth-year option because we just don't think he's going to be the guy. Obviously, they had more data on him than the Packers had on Jordan Love. But you run into an issue when he plays well enough that now you feel compelled to try to find an answer, but he's going to be hitting free agency. You got one franchise tag, and it creates. created a pretty naughty, complicated situation for the Giants that now that they're not working through. I'm trying to be nice.

That's my gracious way of framing what's happening with the Giants right now. And I think the Packers smartly said, we don't want to run into that. We want to give ourselves more flexibility. And if you're Jordan loves agent, burden the hand. I'll take the $13 million. Like, that's fine with me. So I think it was a very good way to handle this situation. And we'll see what happens.

You know, this is one of those moments where you really hope or you really, you really wish that Aaron Rogers didn't get hurt. And you have that extra first round pick. You have some flexibility going into next year. So we'll see what happens. I do think that the injuries on offense and how mixed the personnel has been on the offensive line, not having Aaron Jones. You could feel his uneasiness in the pocket.

And I think that Max Crosby is part of that. He was wrecking the game pretty consistently. But I think that the lack of talent along the offensive line and all the moving pieces along the offensive line combined. with his inexperience. I think you're seeing that stuff start to snowball a little bit. Yeah, I agree. Totally agree.

All right, let's get to a situation that I think has less hope and maybe a less rosy outlook than the Packers right now. Let's talk about Mack Jones and the Patriots. We avoided this on Sunday just because I just wasn't ready to talk about it. I was like, we'll do this later on. I'm like, I can't anymore with the Patriots. And I went back and I watched the game. And I don't even know where you want to start with what's going wrong with New England.

offense because it's everything. And this is, I said before the year that I thought the bottom level of offensive football in the NFL would be a little bit higher this year. And it was for a bunch of different reasons, okay? So you had Aaron Rogers going to the Jets. Okay, so the Jets offense should be better than it was when they were the worst offensive football last year. Theoretically, the Bears should be better with one more year for Justin Fields, a better

supporting cast. You have another year for Kenny Pickett. They went out and added to their offensive line. You think, oh, maybe the Steelers will be a little bit better, too. And the Patriots, you're going from Matt Patricia as your offensive coordinator to Bill O'Brien as your offensive coordinator. Even if they don't have a high ceiling on that side of the ball, competence, I thought, would be more prevalent among some of these really bad offenses in the league. And that has not happened. We have some offenses right now, whether it's the Patriots, whether it's the Giants, that can't even function against NFL defenses because of everything that's going wrong.

if you're trying to get to the root of why that Patriots passing game and why that offense just can't even function right now, where would you start? They don't have playmakers. They don't have playmakers. They don't have playmakers. I watched the game this morning. And it was tough to watch. I mean, it wasn't fun to watch because I'm just like, well, like, honestly, like, yeah, Mac. Mac probably made four to five plays that are head scratchers, but it's not like he's making a play that's a head scratcher. every single time.

Like his last interception got tipped. I mean, there's some, it's just, it's just a little bit weird to watch an offense that is trying to do some stuff and that's not super complicated. But also, they don't have any playmakers.

Like that's the, you're only, as a quarterback, you're only as good as who you surround yourself with. And ultimately, like, it's Bill Belichick, who's the GM.

He's the one getting these guys in. Like, it's his final call on all of it. And when you go out there, and you don't have guys to surround yourself and you have Mac Jones and you're okay going with Mac Jones. You don't bring in a like a big time veteran quarterback just in case Mac Jones doesn't do well. It sort of falls on Belichick because like the only person I saw like that was like making plays out there was Kendrick Bourne. Like I'm like throw it to him every single time.

Like he is your one guy that to me, at least on film, just based on what I saw in the last two games, like he is the playmaker. Right? They don't really have a run game. That's all you need to know. Kendrick-Born is like a fine, complimentary piece within an offense. But if he is your best playmaker at your past catching spots, especially against a team built like the Saints that's going to play man.

And when they're playing quarters, it might as well be man with the way that they play it. And they're just daring you on every single play to create separation. If you can't, it's a non-starter. And that's just what it felt like the entire game. It was, yeah, I mean, it was just, I mean, like give credit to the, to the Saints defense. because they had an excellent game plan.

Like, it was like, hey, I don't care what type of coverage we're in. It can be single high zone. It can be quarters. It can be man. But we're just going to match the underneath receivers. We're going to make Mack take some outside completions. We might play off coverage. But every type of coverage they played that game was some sort of match zone or man.

And they had a great game plan because up front, I mean, Mac was like, it looked a little bit toward the middle of the game, into the game. middle part of the game where he's hitting his back foot and pressures in his face and he's just not even trying to step up in the pocket he's throwing off of his back foot and he's not the guy that has the strongest arm in the world it's okay it's not a it's not a bazooka right like it's not like one of those things where you can just like every single throw was it was just he was not stepping into it I don't know if it was because he wasn't trusting his offensive line I don't know if it but all that matters too and there were some some plays open and some throws open and he made some plays, but it was just, it was bad, man. It was, it was tough to watch as an offensive guy. Against the Cowboys, it felt like there was a certain point in the game where he just short-circuited and was no longer playing within the offense. And like you're talking about, it feels like his footwork, his feel for the pocket,

the way he's moving through progressions within plays, that there is just something where there's, there are wires crossed. and he can't even process the position right now. Is that salvageable? Like when you have a guy that's heading on this sort of downward trajectory where he is so uncomfortable and so sped up on just pretty normal plays, how do you pull someone back that's trending in that direction? Well, it's hard.

It's hard. Like, I wouldn't say it's not salvageable, but I would say that it's definitely not helping his confidence. And we've talked about on this show a lot. I'm a big believer. Like, you got to have conviction as a quarterback and you got to have confidence as a quarterback. I'm not seeing any of those from Mack Jones right now. And that's what's a little bit, a little bit scary because it's not like they have a

all world bearded behind them. Like, good. They go to Bailey Zapi. Like, are you looking? I mean, I think we're looking possibly at like the last season, Bill Belichick's the coach. Like Robert Kraft's going to go in and their relationship has always been contentious. And it's like, dude, like, listen, you're going to be the best coach ever to play the game. I get it.

We're not going to fire you during season, but you take back-to-back losses by over, like, almost 69 points combined. Like, it's just, to me, it's just like, I almost feel like a little bit embarrassed for Belichick because it's just like, I don't like, I don't want people remembering him for his Mac Jones years, right? And they won't. They won't. Down the line, his legacy is Tom Brady, multiple tons of Super Bowls, all that stuff. But it's just, it's tough to watch, especially because they, you bring Bill, Bill,

Brian and you think he's going to be changed the offense but the offense doesn't change if you don't have speed and playmakers on the outside it just doesn't happen like that when you're a quarterback and you just have no one that can win in those situations and you know it how does it change the way that you have to play the position well you're a little bit hopeless right and it's just like you're going back and like all right like I have to make and it's it's one of the things we're like all right look, I got to make all these tight window throws now. Like, I just got to play. Like, it puts a lot of pressure on you to be like,

all right, I got to make every single play that comes my way, because I don't know if I'm going to get another chance to do it. And if I miss a throw that's semi wide open, that might have a chance to be a big play. I'm like, oh, that's one of our three or four big plays that I miss. Like, oh gosh, like head in the gutter. Like, and I'm not saying Max like that because he's not. And he's going out there, but it just doesn't look like it's clicking.

And it doesn't look like he is, like, like you said, he's not processing the information because I think he's getting frustrated. with the lack of offense that they've been able to put out. I mean, it's just, it's absurd, and the turnovers come, and then he tries to do too much, and it's just a vicious cycle where you can't really get out of. I was going to ask you about Belichick, and I was looking back at when you guys would have played against him,

when you were on specific teams, and the game that you guys played against him when you were in Kansas City was that we're on to Cincinnati game, which is incredible that that is the one game. So there's in so much discourse this week, about the Brady Belichick legacies. And was Belichick's success a product of Tom Brady being there? Now the Tom Brady's gone, like how good of a coach was Bill Belichick really,

which I think is mostly silly. And I wanted to ask you as somebody who has had to play against him, who had to prepare for Bill Belichick as a defensive game planner. What sort of defensive coach is Bill Belichick independent of whatever is happening with Tom Brady in the offense? Oh, I think he is like top five. Like I really do like just it just pure defensive coach the dude is awesome like like we've always had for the most part teams I've been on we've always had success against him um but but what he does it's not super complex from their defensive side but it what it does on offense it presents you with a lot of different looks it's it's a bunch of man and it's a bunch of two but they're going to play man coverage 10 different ways and they're going to play cover two some sort of cover two

coverage eight different ways. So they have 18 different ways to play two coverages. And so as a quarterback, it gets a little bit uneasy at times. And you think that you don't. And I think that's where Andy Reid ended up figuring out. Like they, like, I'm not sure what they're doing defensively this year. But a lot of times that they're playing this cover one and these cover two looks, they're only rushing three. And so we always thought in in KC like, hey, okay, you have a lot more time as a quarterback than you think. Let's take deep shots. Let's get speed through these brackets. Let's hold on to the ball a second longer to have these guys open

because a lot of teams play them and they have this cover one with multiple whole players inside. Okay. And they're only dropping three, but they might have five on the line like a bare front. And they're dropping out. It makes you think as a quarterback, you've got to be sped up and stuff like that. Well, I think a lot more teams are figuring it out.

Hey, when the times they are rushing three, let's check it out. We got five blockers. Let's hold the ball and hit them deep down the field. think that's sort of what teams are trying to do, but I would put him down as like definite top five defensive genius for sure. You mentioned Andy Reid. The last thing I wanted to talk about was just the idea of game planning during the

week. And you alluded to it a little bit earlier on the show, but I wanted to dig just a little bit deeper because when I watch the Niners on Sunday, I think that when we conceive of offensive playcallerers, when we conceive of like offensive geniuses, people just think that they're looking at their play sheet and the genius man. manifest by picking the right thing off of the play sheet in the right moments during a game. Like that's what a great offensive coach and that's what a great play caller is. And then you think about specifically I go back to the game that the Chiefs played against

the Niners last year where they have this hyper specific plan for what they were going to do to Nick Bosa. They're going to chip him on every single play. They're going to run a slide route on every other play. They're going to flash color at him. They're going to make him just miserable over the course of 60 minutes with a level of intentionality that other teams may not be willing to take out. So you go back and you look at the offensive coaches you've played with over the course

of your career. Who stands out to you as a particularly good game planner more than a play caller? And is there a specific game planner from your time in the NFL that really stands out to you is exceptional? Wow. For me, the best, the best offensive coaches I've been around and play callers and game planners. And we'll go into it are Andy Reed and Sean Payton. Okay, two completely different ways of game planning. And we can get into both.

I'll be quick. I know. You don't, you don't have to be. I'm so interested in this. So, so let's start with, uh, let's start with Sean Payton. So my first five years and four years in the league and then spent a fifth year with him in 2017. Um, that's how I, grew up in this league was this is just how it's supposed to be. And I've been on team since where that's not how it's, that's not how it is. And so when you, when you have a certain way and you have such a good experience with a game planner, um, like Sean Payton, um, it's, it's really good. Like he's, he, in my opinion is a is a, is a, is a really good game planner, but a great play caller. because he just has this intuition on like how and when and just guess is right a lot of time.

That's why it's just he just he has that about him. But I'd say his game planning is is completely different than Andy Reid. And it's different in a fact where he will like start the week and he'll start digging into film like right after the game like on a on the flight back like he'll dig into our game that we just played. and then he'll just start getting ideas. Say we're playing the Giants. He'll just start getting ideas that come to him. And it's almost like it's such, it's so weird. Like it's such a mad genius.

Like he'll have these play calls sometimes and I'm just like, or these ideas and I was like, there's no, I would never say this to him because I was the back quarterback. I'm like, there's no way this is going to work. And sure enough, he calls it and he calls it at the right time and it's wide open.

And he goes through the week. It's like Tuesday for him. Like they burn. They burned the midnight oil. Like Joe Lombardi was there and Pete Carmichael and Sean Payton. Like everyone's in on it. So he has everyone's input on the offensive staff. And there's been times that I know for a fact that there's been the receiver coach for the Saints,

Joe Lombardi, Pete Carmichael, they're burning the midnight oil on Tuesday. And Sean will come in from whatever he's doing at say like 9 p.m. on Tuesday night when base plan is supposed to be done on Wednesday. And he'll scrap every single one of their ideas that they've been working on for 24 hours. He's like, no, no, no, no. Here's what I'm thinking. And then he'll go till 2 a.m. And they'll put a full game plan on just what he's thinking.

And we'll go on and we'll score 60. And it's like that almost every night. So what is, when you say game plan in this specific situation, is this certain designs against certain coverages? Is it certain plans for opposition players? is that this is the weakest point on this defense, this is what we can take advantage of? Like, what is the game plan specifically comprised of?

What are the nuggets they're trying to unearth? Yeah, so a lot of nuggets they're trying to unearth is, is when you're looking at film and you're understanding, like when he first turns on film, Sean Payton, he'll look and just have an understanding for the type of style of defense. It is, okay? And here's 20 thoughts on base downs that,

here's what I'm thinking. And then as a week progresses, it's almost like, hey, okay, those are great, but like this team plays cover four differently than this cover four beater I have on a game plan. So let's just revisit those ideas. A lot of coaches just say, hey, here's the cover four beaters and just move on. He'll revisit throughout the week. And there's been times where he's installed 12 plays on a Saturday walkthrough. We're just like, what in the world? He's like, that's what he was really good at. And so you're looking at. And so you're looking at. You're looking at. And so you're looking at and you're trying to exploit, and I think what makes him so much better than anyone else, he really looks at the weaknesses of different coverages. And so he's trying to not only by formation,

but by personnel get them into a situation, maybe it's heavy personnel, where they're 95% cover three versus 13 personnel in the first 10 games. So my odds of calling this amazing like corner, and out with a post route taking out against a linebacker. Like he did it in Jimmy Graham so many times. We getting heavy personnel trips. All three teams are right. We'd motion Jimmy Graham over to the boundary and we'd run like a scissors concept, but the corner route would turn up and the corner stays on and he's running against the

linebacker like Max Krause. Like it was insane. So he's looking at situations where the odds are in his favor, if that makes sense. So we can call a play. And I'm not talking like, hey, get in cover three and heavy so I can just run the ball like up the gut. No, it's like how many shot plays can we get out of heavy personnel this week where it's giving us the best chance to not only be successful, but to get huge chunks in huge plays. So that's that's like the difference. That's that's like Sean Payton in a nutshell where

Andy Reed, you go back and exceptional game planner. Like like it's such a different way of doing things. He'll what what he does and what the chiefs do is like they'll have these. They'll have these. 10 to 12 base plays that they have. Okay? And they will run these plays some version of them every single week. Like we had shallow cross in every single week, but he's going to get it in different personnel groupings, in different formations.

So the offense knows what we're doing because we've run it four weeks in a row, but the defense does it and the quarterback knows the progressions. Okay. So he'll have that and he doesn't, he's like, we're going to run it no matter what. Like it doesn't matter. Like you're just going to be really good at it. and it's going to be awesome.

If it's not there, Patrick Mahomes is going to make some crazy play. But then he also has these what you call green dots. And these green dots are new additions to the game plan every week. And these green dots, he'll only have 25 to 30 green dot, new formations, new plays in base game plan, third down, and red zone. So it allows guys to play faster, but also really focus in on those really amazing plays. that it's just him and Nagy in the room, game planning. Everyone gives their thoughts, right?

Heck, does the run game. But it's just those two guys, and they're truly like drawing stuff up on the board, and they're not necessarily worried about, hey, how are they playing this defense? How are they doing that? So it's just two completely different ends of the spectrum that work incredibly well.

So interesting. So with Sean Payton, it's looking at, how can I snap defensive tendencies? And with Andy Reed, it's how can I break my own tendencies. So it's similar thought process, but you're doing it flipped. It's like a mirror image of one another. It's wild.

It's wild. And it's, they're two of the best I've ever been around. And it just, it just continues to work. And I think there's the mind that Andy has, even as he's gotten older to stay on the cutting edge of the game, that's what differentiates these guys.

There's no doubt. And it's, like you can't, you can't stay the same. Like it's adapt or die. It's just how it is in this league. And both of those coaches have, have continued to do that as their careers progressed.

What is the most out of left field thing that Andy brought to you guys over those three years? Like an idea where it was from a high school, where it's from a college, where it's just like, we're going to try this. Like, what was the thing that kind of made you the, that surprised you the most that he kind of brought into the fold? Well, I don't know any, any, like, particular instance on play. But what I do know is he does scour a college film. He scours high school film. It's true. Like he'd have,

when Brad Childress got hired there. I was gonna say Brad Childress was, that was his job. Dude, Chili was awesome. He would come to Andy with about 10 of these like trick play, like truly like crazy trick plays.

And Andy would be like, all right, let's put in two of these. And it'd be like that every week. And if you had, like I've had a couple with him, if you had a couple plays that you wanted to install during a week,

like, okay, show me the evidence that it works. If it works, all right, we're gonna call it. And we might have it on the call sheet for, 12 weeks, but we're going to call it.

Right? Like we had that like, like, and you look at Matt Nagy in Chicago Bears, he's a disciple of him. He did the exact same thing. In 2018, we were rolling. Like, we had two quarterback packages. I was back there. Like as a deco, like all that stuff. And it worked like the flip to Taylor Gabriel against the bucks.

Like all that stuff. The Philly Special was a Bears play. The Philly Special in the Super Bowl was a play they stole from the Bears in that Monday night game against Minnesota that year. There's so many nuggets that you can continue to go into. But it's, it would, I've been blessed to be a, to be like those two guys because in my opinion they're going to go down as two of the best game planners and game callers in the entire history of the league really if you look at their offenses.

I don't want to fully tap this resource by talking about both of these guys today because I would like to revisit this at some point. But that is all we've got for today. Really appreciate you guys listening. We'll be back next week. Please continue to check out all the other stuff that we have on the Athletic Football Show Network. Great episode of Kiefer in the Beats this week talking about the Patriots, the Vikings, the Steelers. Three teams are I think in a fascinating spot, especially New England and Minnesota, where you worry about what the future is going to look like now. The season's not going the way that they want to.

Our B-writers do such a great job of kind of understanding the state of the union in those places. So please go check that out. I'll be back with Nate doing our week six preview later in the week. For now, that is all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon. This was the Athletic Football Show.